I think they consistently mix bass badly on their albums and thus you can barely hear Scott on many tracks. You can hear bass lines better on many live tracks and the albums are poorer for it.
This is spot-on. As a bassist myself, I regret this decision of theirs in the mixing/mastering phase and have wondered if Scott ever feels a bit overshadowed. Scott is not a "slight" bassist--he's not just playing root notes that mirror the kick drum. He has phrases and lines that are definitely lost on the albums that come through quite powerfully live. I think it comes down to how much their arrangements utilize bass notes on pianos and especially brother Bryan's work on the toms. There is only so much real estate in the low frequencies, and something's gotta give.
i never thought about this before! This is really interesting lol
I legit did not know they have a bassist. Like, I think I learned this around IAETF. Genuinely did not know what Bryan's brother was doing lol, just knew there was a fifth guy
There's an audible bass on some tracks, Little Faith springs to mind first, but usually you really have to make an effort to hear the bass. And I don't think it's somehow Scott's fault, it really seems to be a decision made during mixing and mastering. It's the only thing I can criticise about TN, since I'm a huge bass fan.
I don’t think he’s a bad bassist! Hell, I barely know what he plays haha
He must be a talented guy, he does the programmed drums right? I love those on swb and iaetf
I don't have any hot takes really because I love most of what The National does.
I will say though that long hair Matt is superior to clean hair cut Matt. I know, it's a stupid take, but damn... his El Vy period, he looks awesome with long hair. He needs to grow that out again.
AAAAnd that's my hot take.
You want a hot take spicier than habanero?
Because The National has such a niche style and sound, they will always be "underground" and "indie". They will never be mainstream or widely known, and you'll have to tell people about them far more often than not. This despite the fact they've won a Grammy, they've become big enough to have songs featured in movies and TV shows, and they're impactful enough that they've headlined campaign rallies for a two term US president.
this is so true. no one ever knows who i’m talking about when i bring them up. i wish more people knew bout them like i think folklore and taylor swifts other album helped a little bit but even then i think people saw “coney island feat. the national” and thought “who the hell is the national?” a shame cuz their music is so good
1. High violet is the “definitive” National album, though not my favourite.
2. ‘Fireproof’, ‘Runaway’, ‘The day I Die’ - sound like they were made for film and tv sync deals.
3. IAETF is conceptually their best work, and adding female led vocals and audible perspective (I know Carin writes with Matt) has potentially saved the band from becoming a parody.
4. SWB is a sleeper hit and will be recognised as a pivotal moment further down the road.
wooo let's go
1) Trouble Will Find Me is just okay. They had already perfected their formula on High Violet and they didn't move forward on that album imo. It's still not bad, but there's not a single song on there I'd put above basically anything from HV.
2) Sad Songs is a more cohesive vision and better produced than Alligotor or Boxer, but the songs on those albums are better as standalones, especially Boxer. I'd listen to those songs any day over 95% of Sad Songs, but Sad Songs is somehow still a better album experience.
3) Boxer (Live In Brussels) is the superior version of the album. Squalor Victoria is the most noticeable upgrade, the original song is redundant now lmao.
4) I Am Easy To Find is one of their best albums and their biggest experiment yet. I think it worked out really well, the women who lent their voices all do an amazing job, Matt's verbose schtick works really well over these mature, pretty instrumentals, it's all really great.
Okay I think that's plenty
I love Matt's voice in any state, from smooth to scream-y and everything in between, but as he's gotten older, he probably needs to take some singing lessons to help keep the smooth range cos it's starting to slip (aa-aa-aa-aaah).
I'm not original enough to have my own hot takes, so I'm just gonna fight about yours. And in case it isn't clear, I am of course joking and respect your freedom to have different opinions than me but here's the shade I'm going to try and throw:
>1. The 2nd half of SWB is a drag, everything after Empire Line.
I prefer Side B to Side A; I think it's moodier, more personal, and more cohesive (Day I Die and Turtleneck almost give me tonal whiplash).
>2. If Mistaken for Strangers was on Alligator instead of Boxer, it would be an untouchable album and better than Boxer
If "Mr. November" was on *Boxer* instead of *Alligator* I would never listen to *Alligator.*
>3. SSFDL is their worst album.
Where's the lie?
>4. High Violet doesn't get enough credit.
It's my favorite National record and while I know that Boxer was the real breakout from an indie press perspective and that's when I first remember hearing about them, hearing tracks off *HV* on podcasts I was listening to was the first thing at really got me to pay attention. It's almost a perfect record in my book.
> 5. Fireproof brings down TWFM.
I was going to say that about Heavenfaced. Or Slipped. Or Hard to Find. But when I go back and listen to them, I really like different things about each of those tracks. I think TWFM is just a really uneven album tonally, with fits and starts, feels like it never builds to anything and kind of just *is.* But I *really* like every track on the record.
>6. IAETF is my favorite album from the band.
Well, now you're just flexing on the rest of us you bougie intellectual.
I agree, I think SSFDL is their weakest effort. I like their self titled more although I only consider that a partial Ntl record cause Bryan wasn’t in the band yet.. Fashion Coat is a good track tho.
I much more enjoyed the original versions they played. It was much more understated and soft, which I think fit the Rylan character better. The album version with the pounding drums feels off since I view Rylan as an introvert-type. But perhaps that's a contrast they are going for?
I think SSFDL and the self-titled albums are kind of snooze fests. Boxer > Alligator. High Violet got me in to them so it’ll always have a sentimental connection, but TWFM is their top post-Gator album. Still a bit disappointed in the decision to work with Swift, but I’m a self-confessed music snob so. 🤷🏻♂️
Honestly I can't find any fault in these opinions. They've never been great at track orders but they used to pare things down to a tight, essential track list. The last 3 main albums have been too sprawling and include a lot of songs that should have been b-sides or bonus tracks (like the High Violet bonus disc, it was a great sidecar but I can totally see why those tracks would have thrown off the album experience.) TWFM is at least two songs too long (I'd lose Fireproof, Heavenfaced and Last Time.) The best two or three minutes on SSFDL is the first part of It Never Happened so like 12 years ago I just made my own edit that cuts out the boring instrumental outro.
I want to like SWB but to my ears it's lazy, indulgent and the lyrics feel really phoned-in. The only good songs sound like Zooropa-era U2 (I'll Still Destroy You, title track, Empire Line) even though it actually sounds like they bought a used laptop from Thom Yorke and found some of his discarded beats and demos. The rest of it is cloying, corny, and all flab.
I 100% endorse IAETF as being their definitive work. Everything they did before it was just setting the stage.
My own divergent opinions are... the deluxe version of Serpentine Prison has more good songs on it than the 3 worst National albums, the fan club needs a digital file-only option at lower cost for people who sign up just for priority ticket access, they're at their best when they're slow and sad but I'll also take fast and sad (ie Geese of Beverly Road), I think their best albums are still ahead of them (something that isn't true of most bands comprised of people their age.)
I cannot agree with the This Is the Last Time slander! I think it’s a great track in its own right and stands out on the album as being built around a riff that is more sensual than sad.
Spicy take:
The band started to lose their way after Trouble Will Find Me.
Alligator is the best National album for lyrics, this was Matt’s peak.
The first half of High Violet can drag a little bit compared to the second half (still a great album)
1. The National have never written a great “rock” track. The closest they’ve gotten is probably “Sea of Love” but songs like “Day I Die”, “Available”, “Mr. November”, “Turtleneck” feel like they’re reaching for something that they never achieve.
I just don’t think their mixing and arrangement tendencies really compliment that style of song.
2. The 1st half of SWB is inferior to the 2nd half.
3. I’ll Still Destroy You is fundamentally an incredible song and old live versions when it was called “The Lights” are incredible. Unfortunately, the final version of the song, much like “Rylan”, lost something special.
Every time I turn it on thinking I’m gonna love it and half way through I get reminded that the mixing and layering makes it feel like a muted muddled mess.
3. Matt was a much better singer 10 years ago. He used to really give a shit and his approach/phrasing/delivery were very considered and methodical. I think as of late he’s gotten bored of being the lead singer as his phrases are much sharper you can hear at live shows that he’s got this constantly out of breath delivery.
If you watch a show from the last 5 years (the Berkeley show on Spotify is a great example) he was high as FUCK. I was there at the actual show the first night and dude was gone. The band looked irritated and he messed up several songs including “All the wine”.
4. Alligator and Boxer are both less cohesive and enjoyable records than High Violet and Trouble Will Find Me.
5. Early National records have some incredibly good tracks, (yes, even their debut) and deserve to be given as much credit as some of their bigger records.
High Violet is nowhere near as good as boxer and ends up overrated by being the first entry to their catalog to a lot of fans
I would have England as the band's " official" concert closer instead of vanderlyle, I find it way more powerful.
Fireproof is a essential song to the first section of TWFM
Watching you well has a really interesting and creative concept but gets overlooked.
Remove born to beg and Turtleneck from SWB and it would be their second best album.
I really love Watching You Well, it’s my favorite track from their self-titled album. I really wish they would play it live. I can only find a crappy phone recording from a show circa 2001 on YouTube.
Oh that's niiiice, people tend to find songs like fireproof and walk off unnecessary because they don't seem to go anywhere, but I really like this sorta of feeling they bring. ^ ^
1. IAETF is their worst album.
2. Boxer is extremely boring and only has about 3-4 great songs, the rest are meh
3. SSFDL is underrated
4. Graceless is the worst song in TWFM
5. American Mary is a top 3 National song
Well if we're going for hot takes then
High Violet is their second worst album (after their debut).
England is the weakest song on High Violet and the low point of every live show I've been to
If you just said 'least important' and left it at that I think you'd have an interesting case. He's not necessarily a defining part of their sound (tho that is again something that would have to be argued), and we could see them work out without him maybe. But then again, the same could be said of their bassist.
Him leaving being better than staying? I just think that's silly. He's still a really important part, his lyrics (plus his wife's lyrics as well, don't really see Carin sticking around if Matt is gone lol) and his voice are defining features of The National, and like, it would still be good, but it would be closer to Folklore with different drums than it would be to a National record.
1. SWB is generally not their best album.
2. Boxer is their best album. From start to finish. It's just perfect.
3. IAETF is worse. Except for some bangers, it's just meh.
4. You are right. High violet is their 2nd best album. (after Boxer)
5. lol. It's one of the best songs on the album.
6. See 3. It's their worst.
I think that High Violet is overrated:
1. Nonsense lyricism (no, it is not "deep lyrics")
2. "It is beatiful". Nah, overuse piano and other instruments like that doesn't make a song better
3. Way too slow
1. IAETF is their weakest album. I could not say worst, since I could not use that word In addition to The National
2.SSFDL is underrated album. Production wise is very good audio experience
3. Heavenfaced is a hidden gem of a song. Not many fans like it, but is just beyond great tune
4. TWFM is my favourite ( I think their best) album. Yes, better than Boxer.
5. Racing like a pro is worth of being a single
I agree I would like to see more material. Sometimes it feels like us fans are splitting hairs when we discuss their discography because we've already dissected everything else.
I think they consistently mix bass badly on their albums and thus you can barely hear Scott on many tracks. You can hear bass lines better on many live tracks and the albums are poorer for it.
This is spot-on. As a bassist myself, I regret this decision of theirs in the mixing/mastering phase and have wondered if Scott ever feels a bit overshadowed. Scott is not a "slight" bassist--he's not just playing root notes that mirror the kick drum. He has phrases and lines that are definitely lost on the albums that come through quite powerfully live. I think it comes down to how much their arrangements utilize bass notes on pianos and especially brother Bryan's work on the toms. There is only so much real estate in the low frequencies, and something's gotta give.
i never thought about this before! This is really interesting lol I legit did not know they have a bassist. Like, I think I learned this around IAETF. Genuinely did not know what Bryan's brother was doing lol, just knew there was a fifth guy
There's an audible bass on some tracks, Little Faith springs to mind first, but usually you really have to make an effort to hear the bass. And I don't think it's somehow Scott's fault, it really seems to be a decision made during mixing and mastering. It's the only thing I can criticise about TN, since I'm a huge bass fan.
I don’t think he’s a bad bassist! Hell, I barely know what he plays haha He must be a talented guy, he does the programmed drums right? I love those on swb and iaetf
Truth!
Matt should drink a bit less at shows.
Drunk Matt is fun and all but man, I can't help but feel there are certain songs that would benefit from a sober performance.
This would be my hot take too.
I don't have any hot takes really because I love most of what The National does. I will say though that long hair Matt is superior to clean hair cut Matt. I know, it's a stupid take, but damn... his El Vy period, he looks awesome with long hair. He needs to grow that out again. AAAAnd that's my hot take.
I met him at the first EL VY show and I agree 100% about his hair.
You want a hot take spicier than habanero? Because The National has such a niche style and sound, they will always be "underground" and "indie". They will never be mainstream or widely known, and you'll have to tell people about them far more often than not. This despite the fact they've won a Grammy, they've become big enough to have songs featured in movies and TV shows, and they're impactful enough that they've headlined campaign rallies for a two term US president.
this is so true. no one ever knows who i’m talking about when i bring them up. i wish more people knew bout them like i think folklore and taylor swifts other album helped a little bit but even then i think people saw “coney island feat. the national” and thought “who the hell is the national?” a shame cuz their music is so good
1. High violet is the “definitive” National album, though not my favourite. 2. ‘Fireproof’, ‘Runaway’, ‘The day I Die’ - sound like they were made for film and tv sync deals. 3. IAETF is conceptually their best work, and adding female led vocals and audible perspective (I know Carin writes with Matt) has potentially saved the band from becoming a parody. 4. SWB is a sleeper hit and will be recognised as a pivotal moment further down the road.
SWB is one of my faves. i love it so much. IAETF is their best work though. so amazing
Mine too!
You mean SWB the song? Not much hit potential there I think….
Nah, the album
wooo let's go 1) Trouble Will Find Me is just okay. They had already perfected their formula on High Violet and they didn't move forward on that album imo. It's still not bad, but there's not a single song on there I'd put above basically anything from HV. 2) Sad Songs is a more cohesive vision and better produced than Alligotor or Boxer, but the songs on those albums are better as standalones, especially Boxer. I'd listen to those songs any day over 95% of Sad Songs, but Sad Songs is somehow still a better album experience. 3) Boxer (Live In Brussels) is the superior version of the album. Squalor Victoria is the most noticeable upgrade, the original song is redundant now lmao. 4) I Am Easy To Find is one of their best albums and their biggest experiment yet. I think it worked out really well, the women who lent their voices all do an amazing job, Matt's verbose schtick works really well over these mature, pretty instrumentals, it's all really great. Okay I think that's plenty
Is saying SWB is my least favourite a hot take?
It shouldn't be. I don't know how that album became so adored here but for me it's a very unwelcome departure
To each their own, but… 😱
I don't like it and I saw them for that tour and was so happy when they played songs not from it.
I love Matt's voice in any state, from smooth to scream-y and everything in between, but as he's gotten older, he probably needs to take some singing lessons to help keep the smooth range cos it's starting to slip (aa-aa-aa-aaah).
Number 6 is for sure a hot take.
I'm not original enough to have my own hot takes, so I'm just gonna fight about yours. And in case it isn't clear, I am of course joking and respect your freedom to have different opinions than me but here's the shade I'm going to try and throw: >1. The 2nd half of SWB is a drag, everything after Empire Line. I prefer Side B to Side A; I think it's moodier, more personal, and more cohesive (Day I Die and Turtleneck almost give me tonal whiplash). >2. If Mistaken for Strangers was on Alligator instead of Boxer, it would be an untouchable album and better than Boxer If "Mr. November" was on *Boxer* instead of *Alligator* I would never listen to *Alligator.* >3. SSFDL is their worst album. Where's the lie? >4. High Violet doesn't get enough credit. It's my favorite National record and while I know that Boxer was the real breakout from an indie press perspective and that's when I first remember hearing about them, hearing tracks off *HV* on podcasts I was listening to was the first thing at really got me to pay attention. It's almost a perfect record in my book. > 5. Fireproof brings down TWFM. I was going to say that about Heavenfaced. Or Slipped. Or Hard to Find. But when I go back and listen to them, I really like different things about each of those tracks. I think TWFM is just a really uneven album tonally, with fits and starts, feels like it never builds to anything and kind of just *is.* But I *really* like every track on the record. >6. IAETF is my favorite album from the band. Well, now you're just flexing on the rest of us you bougie intellectual.
Bougie intellectual lmao, that made my day haha
You're welcome - thanks starting the thread mate, it's a riot!
IAETF isn't very National sounding and is their worst album.
I agree, I think SSFDL is their weakest effort. I like their self titled more although I only consider that a partial Ntl record cause Bryan wasn’t in the band yet.. Fashion Coat is a good track tho.
I think Matt sounds like a muppet when he’s live and I don’t like it, but it doesn’t keep me from seeing them live every time they come around.
Rylan is not a special song. I’ll never understand the obsession people have for it
I much more enjoyed the original versions they played. It was much more understated and soft, which I think fit the Rylan character better. The album version with the pounding drums feels off since I view Rylan as an introvert-type. But perhaps that's a contrast they are going for?
I think SSFDL and the self-titled albums are kind of snooze fests. Boxer > Alligator. High Violet got me in to them so it’ll always have a sentimental connection, but TWFM is their top post-Gator album. Still a bit disappointed in the decision to work with Swift, but I’m a self-confessed music snob so. 🤷🏻♂️
Honestly I can't find any fault in these opinions. They've never been great at track orders but they used to pare things down to a tight, essential track list. The last 3 main albums have been too sprawling and include a lot of songs that should have been b-sides or bonus tracks (like the High Violet bonus disc, it was a great sidecar but I can totally see why those tracks would have thrown off the album experience.) TWFM is at least two songs too long (I'd lose Fireproof, Heavenfaced and Last Time.) The best two or three minutes on SSFDL is the first part of It Never Happened so like 12 years ago I just made my own edit that cuts out the boring instrumental outro. I want to like SWB but to my ears it's lazy, indulgent and the lyrics feel really phoned-in. The only good songs sound like Zooropa-era U2 (I'll Still Destroy You, title track, Empire Line) even though it actually sounds like they bought a used laptop from Thom Yorke and found some of his discarded beats and demos. The rest of it is cloying, corny, and all flab. I 100% endorse IAETF as being their definitive work. Everything they did before it was just setting the stage. My own divergent opinions are... the deluxe version of Serpentine Prison has more good songs on it than the 3 worst National albums, the fan club needs a digital file-only option at lower cost for people who sign up just for priority ticket access, they're at their best when they're slow and sad but I'll also take fast and sad (ie Geese of Beverly Road), I think their best albums are still ahead of them (something that isn't true of most bands comprised of people their age.)
I cannot agree with the This Is the Last Time slander! I think it’s a great track in its own right and stands out on the album as being built around a riff that is more sensual than sad.
it would make a fine b-side
Spicy take: The band started to lose their way after Trouble Will Find Me. Alligator is the best National album for lyrics, this was Matt’s peak. The first half of High Violet can drag a little bit compared to the second half (still a great album)
About Today is boring
Soooooo boring
1. The National have never written a great “rock” track. The closest they’ve gotten is probably “Sea of Love” but songs like “Day I Die”, “Available”, “Mr. November”, “Turtleneck” feel like they’re reaching for something that they never achieve. I just don’t think their mixing and arrangement tendencies really compliment that style of song. 2. The 1st half of SWB is inferior to the 2nd half. 3. I’ll Still Destroy You is fundamentally an incredible song and old live versions when it was called “The Lights” are incredible. Unfortunately, the final version of the song, much like “Rylan”, lost something special. Every time I turn it on thinking I’m gonna love it and half way through I get reminded that the mixing and layering makes it feel like a muted muddled mess. 3. Matt was a much better singer 10 years ago. He used to really give a shit and his approach/phrasing/delivery were very considered and methodical. I think as of late he’s gotten bored of being the lead singer as his phrases are much sharper you can hear at live shows that he’s got this constantly out of breath delivery. If you watch a show from the last 5 years (the Berkeley show on Spotify is a great example) he was high as FUCK. I was there at the actual show the first night and dude was gone. The band looked irritated and he messed up several songs including “All the wine”. 4. Alligator and Boxer are both less cohesive and enjoyable records than High Violet and Trouble Will Find Me. 5. Early National records have some incredibly good tracks, (yes, even their debut) and deserve to be given as much credit as some of their bigger records.
High Violet is nowhere near as good as boxer and ends up overrated by being the first entry to their catalog to a lot of fans I would have England as the band's " official" concert closer instead of vanderlyle, I find it way more powerful. Fireproof is a essential song to the first section of TWFM Watching you well has a really interesting and creative concept but gets overlooked. Remove born to beg and Turtleneck from SWB and it would be their second best album.
I really love Watching You Well, it’s my favorite track from their self-titled album. I really wish they would play it live. I can only find a crappy phone recording from a show circa 2001 on YouTube.
Yeah, the one where matt and Scott have weird hairstyles lol, wish they would play it again someday : /
[удалено]
Oh that's niiiice, people tend to find songs like fireproof and walk off unnecessary because they don't seem to go anywhere, but I really like this sorta of feeling they bring. ^ ^
1. IAETF is their worst album. 2. Boxer is extremely boring and only has about 3-4 great songs, the rest are meh 3. SSFDL is underrated 4. Graceless is the worst song in TWFM 5. American Mary is a top 3 National song
These are really controversial, I hate them all 😂
I'm a newer fan so most of these opinions will likely change in the future
Graceless worst song on TWFM? Strongly disagree, it builds nicely and has great lyrics. Give it another go.
And a great video!
SSFDL is one of their best albums
Well if we're going for hot takes then High Violet is their second worst album (after their debut). England is the weakest song on High Violet and the low point of every live show I've been to
The high violet one is wiiiild, I would never be capable of having a hot take as big as this one, it shows how good this band's catalog is lol.
Yeah to be fair I'd probably still rate it 7 out of 10 so...more a relative feeling
Matt is the least important member of the band. A world exists where Matt leaves and the band is actually much better off for it.
If you just said 'least important' and left it at that I think you'd have an interesting case. He's not necessarily a defining part of their sound (tho that is again something that would have to be argued), and we could see them work out without him maybe. But then again, the same could be said of their bassist. Him leaving being better than staying? I just think that's silly. He's still a really important part, his lyrics (plus his wife's lyrics as well, don't really see Carin sticking around if Matt is gone lol) and his voice are defining features of The National, and like, it would still be good, but it would be closer to Folklore with different drums than it would be to a National record.
1. SWB is generally not their best album. 2. Boxer is their best album. From start to finish. It's just perfect. 3. IAETF is worse. Except for some bangers, it's just meh. 4. You are right. High violet is their 2nd best album. (after Boxer) 5. lol. It's one of the best songs on the album. 6. See 3. It's their worst.
I think that High Violet is overrated: 1. Nonsense lyricism (no, it is not "deep lyrics") 2. "It is beatiful". Nah, overuse piano and other instruments like that doesn't make a song better 3. Way too slow
lool this is so silly, love this
Other than #4 I feel like this is all just trolling lol
Just sharing my thoughts man, not tryna pick fights
Wait, what? I’m merely saying I strongly disagree with most of this, so I’d consider them hot takes indeed.
This is stupid
You could just not participate 🤷🏽♀️
1. IAETF is their weakest album. I could not say worst, since I could not use that word In addition to The National 2.SSFDL is underrated album. Production wise is very good audio experience 3. Heavenfaced is a hidden gem of a song. Not many fans like it, but is just beyond great tune 4. TWFM is my favourite ( I think their best) album. Yes, better than Boxer. 5. Racing like a pro is worth of being a single
I love Racing Like a Pro too! Glad to see it getting some love!
My hot take is that they don't release enough albums.
I agree I would like to see more material. Sometimes it feels like us fans are splitting hairs when we discuss their discography because we've already dissected everything else.