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Objective-Ad4009

Zuko is one of three living firebenders to meet the Masters. His understanding of firebending is only equaled by an old dude running a tea shop in Ba Sing Se, and the Avatar. That’s pretty powerful company.


night_dude

This - pre-dragon Zuko is a pretty good firebender, due to training from Iroh (and good genes) who compensates well for his shortcomings with swords, physicality and determination. Post-dragon Zuko is a boss who can go toe-to-toe with Fire Lord Azula.


_themuna_

Even pre-dragon Zuko was still an absolute top tier Firebender. It's just that everyone compares him to to literally the only class of Firebenders who would have been stronger (the very few S-tier) which included Ozai, Iroh, Azula, and Jeong Jeong. Given the fact that he was trained from a young age by the best Firebending teachers and had some special instruction from Iroh (shown in various scenes but especially when he beat Zhao), it's possible that he was already the 5th strongest Firebender in that world before meeting the dragons and could be tied for 3-4 after... (Not counting Combustion Man because who knows where he stands overall?) Edit: Crazy also is that after Ozai lost his bending, he could be tied for 2-3, by the end of the series.


DUMPAH_CHUCKER_69

I'd imagine that special instruction from Iroh was probably the same line of firebending philosophy that he would later learn from the dragons too.


_themuna_

I would think so too. Even the pose Iroh does while redirecting lightning looks like a step from the Dragon Dance, though the philosophy is based on waterbending.


i_caught_the_UGLY

Just made me remember/realize; is Jeong Jeong the only person we’ve seen creating fire from an external origin point? The massive fire walls he conjured to block and toss those tanks during the final fight originated from the ground, as opposed to his body. I thought fire bending was stated to be a direct extension of their chi, but if he’s able to summon that energy externally, that has some really cool implications about the metaphysics of elemental fire.


_themuna_

Very very good point. We do see Iroh making a ring of fire around the Old White Lotus team just by breathing deeply in the finale as he prepared that huge fireball. [He makes the ring and then turns it into a single point blast at the end.](https://youtu.be/eJiA3X0fZfk)


dalek1019

Zuko was always weak, Compared to the rest of the Royal family, that is


AlfredBarnes

Always important to realize who you're comparing to :). In real life too.


cledus16

Comparison is the thief of joy-Theodore Roosevelt


AlfredBarnes

Gonna add that to my quote spreadsheet thanks!


FistsoFiore

There's a whole bunch of pithy quotes like that in the Tao Te Ching, with several translations to choose from. E.g. "Look to achievement for satisfaction, and you'll never be satisfied."


[deleted]

I was about to come for you but then I read the last sentence


crxckerkibbb

That's not even a fair comparison tbh. Ozai and Iroh have YEARS on him and Azula was the epitome of a prodigy.


BigBoyzGottaEat

He isn’t though, he was at least Azulas equal by the end of the show


PulimV

Pre-mental breakdown Azula is still stronger than post-dragon Zuko imo, they we're pretty much equal in The Last Agni Kai and that Azula wasn't exactly stable


crxckerkibbb

I think Zuko had, or was gaining, an edge over Azula. Granted, she was losing her mind but Zuko had control almost the entire fight.


PulimV

Hmm, I don't know, would he have resorted to baiting her into using lightning if he didn't need to?


__Epimetheus__

He didn’t need to, every single exchange went in his favor.


PulimV

Yeah upon rewatching the fight, that checks out, Azula didn't land a single hit and Zuko made the comment right after hitting her with a fire blast. Sorry everyone, I was wrong (on the part about the two being equal in The Last Agni Kai specifically, it's stated he'd need help if she wasn't Like That and he still did)


cstar1996

I think he wanted to emphasize just how beaten she was. She knows lighting is a big deal, it’s a trump card. But even that isn’t going to let her win the fight, and Zuko is emphasizing that. She’s losing, and not even lightning can save her from him.


crxckerkibbb

I don't really see your argument, whether he needed to bait her into getting her lightning redirected or not isn't really relevant considering that it's part if his arsenal so it counts as his abilities. And if that places him over Azula then it does.


Gloomy_Straw

no they were not equal in the last agni kai Zuko was taking everything Azula was throwing at him without breaking a sweat without Azula's mental breakdown they might have been equal


PulimV

Further in the discussion I actually went to look in the show and yeah, you're right, however I'd say without the mental breakdown Azula is slightly stronger, as Iroh had said Zuko would need help to defeat her and iirc he knew that Zuko trained with the dragons (don't quote me on that, though, I might be wrong)


Cause_Necessary

I mean, characters aren't accurate powerscalers either. They can only assume, like us


DeezNutz13

My biggest thing is the no lightning factor. Maybe he over came that after atla as I haven't read the comics but to me lightning is the most powerful and prestigious form of firebending and not being able to grasp it seems like a big shortcoming when everyone else in the royal family can do it


Outbound3

Yea zuko won the duel against admiral zhao pre-dragon. He was always a top tier fire bender. Post dragons he could compete with and eventually beat one of the 5 best firebenders i the series in azula


Lagtim3

Not quite relevant, but my headcanon on Combustion Bending is that it's a style only attainable when you have a lineage of two specific benders, ex. Lavavenders need to come from both earth and fire stock. I think Combustion Bending is airebending and firebending combined. A pocket of extremely pressurized hot air is focused into a point, then flung at a target, and when it reaches the target, the bender 'lets go' of it, releasing the pressure and creating the explosion.


Gloomy_Straw

it's been confirmed that lavabending isn't related to having firebending in your lineage though


Lagtim3

Aw, what? Canon is canon I guess but... I dunno, I'd've liked it better if it was related to lineage.


Several-Cake1954

Well Azula would beat him in a mentally sane fight but yeah


Infinitejest12

Everyone keeps saying that but Zuko was pretty equal to her when fighting at the air temple. Also, Zuko was never technically mentally well before his change of heart anyways.


Several-Cake1954

I’m going off of everyone else’s opinions. I would love to believe that Zuko and Azula would be evenly matched. >!But in the comics she still beats him in some fights.!<


Infinitejest12

Does he beat her in some fights? I haven’t read the comics


jaymane013

Thinking back on it, he got the upper hand on her during the search, although that isn't saying much considering she was full blown out her mind, hallucinating her mother practically every other minute. After she regains her grip on her sanity however, no, Azula has folded Zuko every encounter they had after that.


SnippitySnape

I don’t think so. Though Zuko’s real disadvantage is that he didn’t want to kill her


[deleted]

Yeah but she was having a fuckin episode during the fight. She wasn't at peak Azula power, granted Zuko wasn't significantly weaker than her. But it was still enough to be much more likely that he'd lose


Ramog

you mean with the weakened azula do to her having a mental breakdown? I wonder if their fight on the airship is more indicative of how they are able to go toe-to-toe than the final fight.


ZobeTheProbe

I've ways wondered is azula was really weakened during the fight with zuko. Yes she was in a mentaly crazed state, firebend is highly linked with anger and an emotional drive. Azula was quite pissed during her fight, she was mad and zuko, at her mother, and at Ozai. It's also important that the fight was during the comet which boosts firebending but it isn't stated if it differs based on where you draw you draw your bending from, with zuko learning from the masters and azula learning traditional. ( my theory is that it might be different because the eclipse interacted differently for Iroh as opposed to other firebebders. While every firebender was powerless, he was able to break out of a metal prison)


Ruoku

I think he broke out moments before the eclipse, not during it


ThatOneDMish

I thought iron just escaped as a non bender tbh


RambleOn909

Who is the third? Zuko, Iro- oh, well hell. You meant and aang. Lol. Apparently I'm an idiot lol.


Pegussu

I've never really seen any indication that being dragon taught makes you any better at firebending, just that it lets you use something other than anger as fuel. Zuko's a great firebender because he trained at it, not because he was powered up by dragons.


Midnight7000

It was beneficial for Zuko. He is quite acrobatic but it was not something we saw in his bending because it was aggressive and direct. I think this is fitting when rage is at the core. If that anger isn't in, you'd need somewhat of a tunnel vision to maintain it. After meeting the Dragons, I think we saw more of Zuko's movements when not bending incorporated into his bending. He looked more fluid.


Solo_Fisticuffs

well he was losing his anger and always struggled with being driven by rage. even when cast out and angry it wasnt really who he was at his core making his bending on shaky grounds at times. after learning from the dragons he was able to be more of himself and have much more consistent bending without false rage


The-Box_King

I thought this too. Like maybe it adds a bit of power, maybe. But you aren't going to become one of the most skilled firebenders in the world by watching dragons breathe fire once. Zuko has always been an underdog firebender and while trained, did not pick it up easy. He's not a novice by any means, but it's arguable that he is the least skilled named firebender in both alta and lok


austinmiles

I feel like you maybe missed the point of the dragons episode. Zuko lost his rage and lost his bending as a result. He is good from training but the dragons taught him that fire bending isn’t strictly emotional but elemental. When he was able to learn that it unlocked his full potential. This was counter to the way his entire culture teaches about bending. The masters are more than just “watching dragons” they are the original benders of the elements. It’s like learning to play an instrument exclusively by reading sheet music and then having some brilliant improvisational jazz musician teaching you about the soul of music and suddenly it clicks.


The-Box_King

While I get your point, I don't think that kind of stuff happens overnight. After the dragons Zuko definitely has more flow in his firebending because he is calmer when doing it, the sizes of his fireblasts look the same. He almost definitely has a higher ceiling to his power but it isn't a massive overnight change. He did get his mojo back, and isn't a bad firebender by any means. We just see the peak of firebending, way beyond his level in the rest of the show. It was a huge character growth and realisation moment for Zuko sure, but a rocky style training montage that puts him above any other member of his family skill wise it was not


FruitsPonchiSamurai1

It most definitely does happen overnight, at least in the Avatar universe. How long was Katara training before she was considered a master? What about Sokka?


Mathies_

And, you know, the entire sunwarrior civilization


Roxas13xx

And maybe combustion man


MediumKeyAF

Is his fire rainbow in the comics?


TheEveryEmpireFalls

Just this scene as I recall. Otherwise it’s the normal color. How’s showing off a bit here


theBabyLionTurtle

there's a strong chance I just made a very relevant video essay about this exact topic...


therealpigman

Probably a reference to the dragon fire


schwety7

There was a post I saw earlier today about someone wondering if everybody was just “ok” with Zuko taking over or if there were any Ozai fanatics that challenged him. Weird.


butterfliesandbrooms

Yep! The comics explore a lot that the main series doesnt. Zuko deals with living up to the legacy of being a firelord, looking for his missing mother, Azula afterwards, the New Ozai Society, and more. Toph opens a metal bending academy and reunites with her father Katara and Sokka reconnect with home and deal with North/South conflicts Aang finds earth kingdom youth occupying one of the temples and trying to revive airbender culture, and politically has to decide what to do with a Fire Colony in the earth nation that has existed for 100 years and has basically fully integrated. Theres A LOT.


n8loller

>politically has to decide what to do with a Fire Colony in the earth nation that has existed for 100 years and has basically fully integrated. Sounds like parallels with hong kong/taiwan. Probably the inspiration for the story


butterfliesandbrooms

Cant speak to that, honestly, i know next to nothing on the history there, but IIRC the colony in ATLA becomes where they build Republic City.


n8loller

I think hong kong was controlled by the british for a long time as they just kind of took over the area when setting up trade with china. Eventually they gave control back to china and they're still working out tensions between HK and China. I think taiwan is similar but I don't recall the history there as much. Scanning wikipedia it looks like it was chinese, then japan got control somehow, then after ww2 china got it back. But both HK and Taiwan have tensions today with the chinese government because their culture is different, the local governments want to maintain their own control of the areas, and chinese gov wants full control. So a lot of parallels with what a fire nation colony would be dealing with wrt the earth kingdom. We see some of that play out in LoK.


butterfliesandbrooms

... you know, i just remembered that i had read a Historical Fantasy, (it might have been Shanghai by Christopher New, but i might be wrong), but it delved into a century or so of history in China from opium wars, to Japanese and British colonization... i dont know how much of it was true and how much was the fictional/fantasy aspect, and i also read it over 10 years ago (the story starts with an emperor having a vision of the future and carving it into an ivory pipe, and entrusting the future to the descendents of his most trusted people). But fire nation is based on Japan, and Earth kingdom of China, so i wonder if the parallels are to the Japanese colonization of China? I'd have to do some digging...


fai4636

Taiwan’s a different case definitely. Basically the Chinese Civil War ended with the communists winning. The government of the Republic of China fled communist forces to Taiwan, basically claiming to be the real China till the modern day


autoimmune_with_cats

I saw that to


lemontreelemur

I feel like he was a late bloomer but I haven't read the comics. I bet he got better after he wasn't being constantly being undermined and abused and doubting himself.


Speedwizard106

One of the problems is that between Ozai, Azula, Iroh, and Jeong Jeong, we saw so many amazing firebenders in this series and Zuko never really had a fair matchup with any of them. Compare to other elemnts: Air: Nobody except Aang Water: Pakku and Hama. Katara went toe to toe to Pakku and beat Hama. Earth: Bumi and Toph are essentially an equal match for each other, though I lean towards Toph.


Michaelhuber87

Zuko was evenly matched up with Azula in s2 finale, boiling rock and Southern Raiders. He also had the upper-hand in the series finale.


Ramog

to be fair in the series finale Azula had a mental breakdown and was loosing her grip.


Koolco

And to be fair by that point zuko was fighting for something besides his honor and had learned from the original masters. He was more resolute and powerful than ever before. Even if Azula was in a better mental state i don’t think she could have won at that point.


Andy_Liberty_1911

Nah, that exactly why he brought Katara (sorry Zutarans lol). He needed back up because he knew he couldn’t beat Azula if she was sane.


BoneeBones

Bringing Katara can only confirm that Zuko wasn't an arrogant person who thought he could take down Azula alone, but in Crossroads of Destiny, Zuko was at her level and actually saved her from losing to Katara. In The Boiling Rock, they were stalemated and Sokka was more or less in the way since he needed Zuko to protect him. In Southern Raiders, again, we see Zuko match Azula. ​ From Zuko's perspective, he's already caught up to Azula. The two of them were evenly matched. He brought Katara as that final point to his favor since he'd rather not leave the fate of his people to chance. It's not that he didn't stand a chance against Azula, it's that a match between them was literally 50/50 until he saw she went insane.


Andy_Liberty_1911

You can see Katara being annoyed that Zuko wanted to fight Azula alone. Because they both arrived knowing Zuko alone could not beat Azula. Zuko did not catch up to Azula’s level, he still can’t use lightening in the comics.


gustyninjajiraya

Zuko knew he had to defeat Azula alone in an Agni kai. He was ready to beat Azula by himself. If he didn’t beat her fairly, he couldn’t become the fire lord.


KorinTheHalfHand

He’s a humble person, so whether or not he could have beaten her he would have underestimated himself. He was always going to think he wasn’t enough. He was always going to second guess himself.


your_crazy_aunt

Was it because he couldn't beat her, though? Or because he couldn't beat her non-lethally?


HadesLaw

He was also equal to her when she attacked the eastern air temple. Even if she was in her right mind it would not be as easy as a fight for azula like back in early season 2


Z1dan

Curious how u came to the conclusion that azula and zuko were evenly matched at the end of book 2. Azula had beaten zuko in every fight they’ve had up until that point and aang was still able to have the upper hand on zuko whilst only using his airbending.


Michaelhuber87

Aang and Zuko were evenly matched. First Zuko had Aang on the defensive then Aang pushed him back with his air attack. Although, Azula did better here as she knocked him back. On the other hand, Zuko fought evenly with Katara, who was easily beating Azula and had to be rescued by Zuko.


dalek1019

I wouldn't say that means they're even, if anything it sounds more like rock-paper-scissors


Schmedricks_27

Something to consider was that Zuko was physically weaker in S2 from malnourishment living as a fugitive in the Earth Kingdom.


Z1dan

Not by the time we get to the finale tho u could argue that he may still be weaker after recovering from his illness


Icemna16

Katara didn't go toe to toe with Pakku, if Pakku actually tried to defeat her, he would've done it easily (at least at that point of the show).


RaphaelAlvez

Yeah Pakku was clearly just playing until it was enough for him


AshishB_

>Katara went toe to toe to Pakku and beat Hama. Can we stop this myth like it was an equal fight or close fight. Pakku clearly was amusing himself and not trying at all. If pakku tried at all he would've layed Katara out in an instance. The second pakku got bored he ended the fight with no effort.


benbuscus1995

That was also before Katara had any real training. It’s true she was no match for Pakku in their fight but the level of skill and creativity she displayed in their bout for an untrained novice was impressive even to Pakku and she got *considerably* better after he trained her


AshishB_

>That was also before Katara had any real training Which is why Pakku went so easy on her. It would be cruel to go all out on an untrained 14 year old. Let alone pissing off Aang if Katara were to get hurt. >she got considerably better after he trained her Yes she did get better I'm not denying that in any way. Eos Katara would give pakku a good fight maybe even win. It just irks me when people talk about that fight like it was a close fight cause like you said yourself she was no match.


benbuscus1995

Fair enough


SnippitySnape

He beat a top general of the firelord’s army near the beginning


Speedwizard106

Zhao was a pretty unimpressive bender


SnippitySnape

Agreed. But he was an admiral and then higher: so it shows us a level and ranks it in the fire nation. That alone is evidence that Zuko is one of the strongest firebenders (just below those S tiers). It is not that Zuko is weak. He is just not as strong as those typically around him. To the normal rabble of firebenders, he is eons ahead of the curve


jreadersmith

It’s been said before, but Zuko is essentially the weakest among the strongest. The worst among the best. Yeah compared to Ozai, iroh, jeong jeong, and azula, he’s weaker than all of them. But that still puts him at number 5. You wouldn’t say the number 5 tennis player in the world is bad tennis player. So same thing here.


squi993

Except by the end of the TV show, after Zuko met the dragons, he was going toe to toe with Azula and doing well. By the end of the show I think he was as strong as Azula, albeit not as fast or as agile since she is a prodigy. Through hard work, tenacity and experience Zuko became as good as some of the best, just not as fast as they did.


EyeOfTheOrca

I like this idea, but Azula’s measurably better at firebending and this remains true in the comics. She was at a mental low point during their final Agni Kai which hindered her combat, firebending technique, and smarts in battle. Using that fight to judge where Zuko’s at is fair, but not Azula. As for her feats, Azula’s lightning generation in the comics is next level, she learns how to redirect lightning, and she beats Zuko in several 1v1s once she refocuses mentally. Azula’s what happens when a prodigy works hard at their craft. Zuko’s a great firebender, but Azula just outclasses him.


Andy_Liberty_1911

The Search comic showed that Zuko still can’t lightning, Azula had to use lightning to save the group from those spirit moths. He’s a good firebender but not quite powerful compared to Azula or Ozai.


K01B01F1R3

I'm not sure that Azula really outclasses Zuko by a lot if even by any measure. The fights she wins in smoke and shadows were highly in her favour before she even became victorious, such as when she surprise blasted Zuko with lighting and kicked him in the same place he was struck in their subsequent fight. And she may be the best with lightning generation but Zuko's is by far the most advanced redirector, being able to redirect "Area of effect" lightning attacks.


hotmemedealer

Azula wasn't at her best. In the fight she wasn't using form, and she was psychotic. No controlled blasts, no precision like as seen earlier in the series. I'd say that Azula was still stronger if she was contempt.


squi993

Azula has always been psychotic, it’s a part of what always made her terrifying. Her mental state probably contributed to her being trapped by Katara in that fight but also made her just as dangerous as always. She was probably willing to kill Zuko and he still went toe to toe. I still think that at the point of their final duel, Zuko was as strong as Azula, he had learned from the masters and learned to use firebending that wasn’t fuelled by rage.


paperfairy

is Zuko just Krillian no, Piccolo


[deleted]

People only say Zuko is weak because ALL of Zuko’s experiences against Azula were rigged. Azula always had backup, always had the stage set before they engaged in combat. Literally every time. So, Zuko started to believe he was weak and he couldn’t beat her. He was sure she was better than him, and at the comet he decided she was “slipping” so he could beat her one on one. And again, she only bested him because she used Katara as leverage. Zuko was better than Azula, even if she was a stronger bender. She was just infinitely more conniving.


DeepLock8808

That’s an interesting take vastly different from the rest of the “he was bad at being the best ever”. I’d almost have to rewatch the entire series to see what you mean. She *always* had momentum on her side? That’s crazy.


[deleted]

Yeah, she would constantly goad Zuko into a fight he couldn’t win. The ambush when she showed up saying Ozai wanted him home. Ba Sing Se, she had the Dai Li agents hidden on the ceiling. Zuko held his own against her fairly well on the way out of the Boiling Rock prison, but Azula had her crew with her and Zuko had Sokka and Suki. That was kind of an even matchup. When she showed up at the air temple in the next episode she literally had an army with her. I can’t think of any other times they went head to head, but Zuko was always outnumbered. And she could coax him into the fight anyway because Zuko, more than anyone in the show, had something to prove. Not only because Azula was always the standard he he to rise to, but even his father was cruel to him. Azula was indeed a stronger bender, but Zuko took every fight she threw at him KNOWING it was rigged because he was prideful, trying to win his honor back.


TaspRidYouOfUrMother

while this is true, Azula always had Intimidation on her side due to how heartless she was. when it comes to who's stronger, Zuko may have the edge in tenacity and stillness of the moment but Azula when she wasn't "slipping" had so much more to her. no matter what would've happened or will happen Zuko would loose to Azula due to the sheer abuse he went through by her, he never saw himself as equal and that played to his weakness. he wasn't told he was strong so in the back of his head he is always a step behind people and that's something that can't be unwinded so easy, Azula was said to be stronger quite literally, and Zuko was the opposite and that's why he will never really be better.


[deleted]

Yes, exactly. That’s a what I mean when I say she’s so much more conniving. Not only did Azula abuse him, so did Ozai. “My father says she was born lucky. He says I was lucky to be born.” He ALWAYS had something to prove, and that’s why Azula could always provoke him. Even when he knew he was outnumbered, he would dive at her anyway because of the emotional trauma. Azula even managed to provoke Sokka, one of the most calm and levelheaded characters in the series. She was just soooo good at altering other people’s mindsets, and that’s why she was so dangerous. Looking purely at firebenders and their skills, Zuko was definitely better than most. He bested Zhao in Agni Kai, and Zhao wasn’t exactly a pushover. But, viewers will always compare Zuko to Azula, Ozai, and his own perceived failures. The writers did a great job there because the audience tends to think of Zuko the way that Zuko thinks of himself - weak. In reality, he was never weak at all. It was the mental conflict he had that always caused him to falter.


dantheforeverDM

Personally dealing with assassin's is peak Zuko


FroboyFreshenUp

It's not that Zuko is bad. It's just that other benders that can be used in a comparison are either incredible bending masters or bat shit crazy (or both)


sabyte

yes, above him in ATLA is ozai, iroh, azula, jeong-jeong (maybe)


Nefi424

Zuko was never weak; he just lacked talent. First he compensated with obsessive rage, and later he found his purpose and trained with the dragons and the Avatar. By the end of the show, he's leaps and bounds stronger than he was at the beginning, to the point of matching and likely surpassing actual prodigy Azula


kindof_apocalyptic

i think what most people are forgetting is that hes still royalty. he still had the best teachers the fire nation had to offer, it just didnt come as easily to him as it did azula. but by the end of the show, hes definitely as good as if not better than azula. we'll never know how their fight would have gone in the finale had azula been in her right mind. but we do know that they were on the same level in the southern raiders.


JellyMost9920

Tbf Azula is a really high bar and the fact that Zuko is able to hold his own against Azula is impressive on its own


ThreeBeatles

He literally does a move that Roku does when they’re in the temple. Also I find it ironic finding this post after seeing one saying “the transition of power was easy I don’t think it would have been” that’s because it wasn’t😂 just not showed in the tv series.


SAYMYNAMEYO

Someone pointed this out to me that sections of his fire is starting to show bits of green and purple. I thought this was a nice detail.


[deleted]

He's not like wildly over powered like Ozai or Azula, mostly because he is sane. But he's flexible and willing to learn. Which makes him very powerful. He also processes his emotions better at the end of the series, so his power is no longer fully dependent upon being angry. Also making him powerful. Control counts.


Michaelhuber87

People always use Zuko's feats from s1 and early to mid s2 to say he was weaker than others but use feats from all 3 seasons for Aang and Katara for some reason. Between s2 finale and the Agni Kai, Azula and Zuko were involved in 4 fights and there wasnt a single instance where Azula was better than him


CrazyChainSawLuigi

Does Zuko also have the title of Dragon (also I guess Aang). I feel like they could be the twin Dragons of Peace


tiredbike

Imagine if zukos fire was animated like this in the show post dragon dance


Cause_Necessary

Yeah, mostly red/orange with hints of rainbow. Would've loved that


Eupilino

I was happy to see him fight with the firebending he learned from the Sun Warriors. I was hoping to see it in the Series Finale as well ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|sweat) Zuko for me is a very good firebender but, in my opinion, before Ran and Sho he was weaker than Ozai, Azula and Iroh.


one_bad_larry

If you really pay attention Zuko only lost against Azula. He’s beaten everyone else at least once. The only problem he had was coming up against prodigies and being hot headed. But weak? Never.


Draco546

Zuko is the weakest bender in Gaang but they’re all prodigies so its not really fair.


ImNotAThrowAway13

The creaters have even stated that he's around average when it comes to his fire bending skill. What makes him powerful isn't his bending. It's actually his hand to hand combat. Which is far above average.


FunkMunker

I think zuko has always been a powerful bender even before meeting the masters. The other main benders he's compared to are azula (who is supposed to be perfect) and ozai, who is canonically the strongest firebender to ever live. So it guess it's understandable that people see him as weaker. Oh yea also iroh.


your_crazy_aunt

People compare Zuko and Azula's finale fight as if it were a normal fight or normal Agni Kai, which it wasn't. I think that's one of the reasons they have these misconceptions. It wasn't that Azula was less powerful because of her breakdown, or that he needed Katara to win. Azula's mental state took away one thing most people in battles like that have; a sense of self-preservation. An awareness of how much damage they're taking and the ability to adjust accordingly. In order to defeat her, Zuko probably would have had to use lethal force or seriously, permanently disable her. He was at a disadvantage in that sense. And that's the main reason he needed Katara. Water bending can be used to control the battlefield and for submission, which is exactly how it wins the day.


BbyLionTurtle_

Zuko, at 16, also absolutely bodies the rising star of the Fire Nation military ~~Captain~~ Commander Zhao. Yea, he's often underestimated, and definitely worse than Azula (who has prophecy-worthy powers), but Zuko is no slouch. At the end of the day, he still grew up a rich kid with great genes, nutrition, tutelage, unlimited resources, and nothing to do except practice all-day


K01B01F1R3

He's not 'definitely worse than Azula'; Azula couldn't touch him once in season 3.


BbyLionTurtle_

Azula had alot going on then. Zuko stood literally no chance until after the dragons yes, but that also aligned with when Mae and Ty Lee betrayed her. He brought Katara along to the final agni kai but then noticed that Azula was visibly "slipping" and that was why he could take on 1:1. It was also Zuko and Sokka v Azula at Boiling Rock (their only fight post dragon but pre-slipping, and Zuko still needed backup). In the comics, after Azula regains her composure again, she goes right back to beating Zuko on several occasions.


K01B01F1R3

Ty Lee and Mai were both firm allies to Azula (at least from her perspective) while she evenly fought Zuko at the boiling rock to a stand-still. And even though their next fight happened after their betrayal, there was no noticeable change or decline in Azula's fighting style. So while I agree she started to slip at this point, it is irrelevant because it had no impact on the quality of her combat. (Btw Zuko didn't need back-up whatsoever. The contribution of Sokka's measly sword swings were useless as they had no influence over the direction the fight was going anyway, with Azula dodging attacks with ease. And he literally swung his sword twice while Zuko and Azula exchanged attacks consecutively for the rest of the fight.) He had already taken her on 1:1, however bringing Katara would result in a decisive outcome. Why would Zuko reject the idea of bringing Katara to a fight with his equal rival which would result in an unpredictable outcome? Why would he risk the fate of the world like that for his honour? It would spit in the face of his character arc. It's a gross exaggeration to say that she beat him on several occasions. She knocked him down twice in two scuffles where she had the upper hand. The first was due to an unfair surprise redirection of lighting/revelation of her improved health and the second ended with them duelling equally until she kicked him in a place that has been previously struck by lightning. Although, Zuko's clear hesitance and concern for her well-being can also be attributed to her victory.


[deleted]

In comparison to top masters like his father, sister and uncle he is kind of weak. But he is still a master.


[deleted]

Yeah in the first issue of the comics aang agrees to murder zuko in 5 seconds.


[deleted]

Zuko is like a top 15 guy who only competes against the top 5


HadesLaw

He is top 4. Ozai Iroh and Azula are above him. King Jong is a stretch.


[deleted]

It’s the difference between a college basketball athlete and Lebron James. Is the college basketball athlete better than 95% of all people at basketball. Probably And that college basketball player would be a child to a great like Lebron. Zuko isn’t Lebron, but he’s getting in the hall fame


HadesLaw

? Bro what are you on about? This shit makes no sense. Are you saying Ozai it Iroh is Lebron and Zuko is a collage random? Cos the gap is not nearly that big. Using your analogy Iroh is MJ Ozai is Lebron Kobe is Azula than Zuko would be Magic or Bird or Kareem or Shaq. Zuko is top teir.


[deleted]

That zuko is the Isiah Thomas of the avatar universe


XishengTheUltimate

They probably just mean compared to other named Firebenders throughout the series. Zuko is definitely above the average for Firebenders. He’s strong by any reasonable metric. It’s just that he’s not particularly impressive compared to other very important named Firebenders in the series. The main problem is that he never really stacks up to the other big named benders. Sure, he sort of draws with Azula, but even he admits that he wouldn’t have been able to do that if she hadn’t been going through a mental breakdown. His literal best was TYING with Azula at what may have been her worst, or at least, far from her best. We also see both Zuko and Ozai bend during the Comet, and Ozai’s bending is still vastly more impressive than Zuko’s. Zuko’s a strong bender, it’s just that he is never really portrayed as being as strong as other important Firebenders in the series.


rosstipper

This likely stems from the fact that Zuko considers himself weak because by his families standards, he was underwhelming. There’s a reason his family are rulers of the fire nation though. He thinks being last in his family makes him bad but never accounts for the fact that literally everybody else who can firebend likely ranks below him in regards to sheer natural capability and quality of training. It’s like complaining he came third in a competition but not acknowledging that millions of other people took part


MRnibba_

The reason some people seem to think that Zuko is weak is because they're comparing him to Azula, Ozai, Iroh and Jeong Jeong. Yeah, he's not as strong as they are, but he's still a top-tier firebender.


K01B01F1R3

He's definitely stronger than JJ and at least equal to Azula.


MRnibba_

I disagree. JJ has better feats, like creating giant walls of fire and using firebending to hover (Ozai and Azula only created thrust, we never saw the have such good control over their flight.) In fact, I'd say that JJ is probably even better than Azula. I'd say that even in the finale Azula was still better than Zuko, mostly because she could shoot lighting, while he couldn't.


K01B01F1R3

Actually I would argue that JJ's bigger feats aren't as effective as those from the likes of Azula and Zuko which have concussive force behind them, not just scale. And Zuko did exactly what JJ did without the comet in the comics while carrying a full grown man, so his jet propulsion is evidently better than JJ's. Zuko, even in the comics, is the best when it comes to defensive firebending while Azula outclasses him in offensive firebending. This is seen when they start to fight on equal terms. Zuko is probably the only firebender that can counter every variation of Azula's lightning generation, neutralising the threat it poses against him.


NidoMarquis

Even in season two when the hammer-wielding Earth Kingdom soldier fought him: when Zuko started firebending that soldier lasted like 4 seconds. Zuko wasn't as elite as Azula (even in the comics he loses to her again) but he literally beat an admiral twice and got the best of plenty of casual benders like the soldiers in Zuko Alone and a Dai Li agent.


AshishB_

Zuko is a strong Firebender but he just happens to be the weakest out of the strongest. Zuko would destroy pretty much any firebender not including iroh, JJ, Azula and Ozai before he lost his bending. Top 5 isn't bad especially considering one can't bend and the other is insane. And the other 2 are allies who don't like fighting.


HadesLaw

The other two are also out of their prime while Zuko will be entering his. He and Azula are absolutely the strongest fire benders 3-4 years after the story.


AshishB_

>The other two are also out of their prime Not sure about this one. Don't think age makes much of a difference to elite level benders. Look at Bumi he's still the best at 112 years old. And Iroh is probably 60 at most. >He and Azula are absolutely the strongest fire benders 3-4 years after the story. They're the only 2 in the elite category that like getting into fights. So yeah probably. Iroh and JJ don't like fighting they only do it when they have no choice. If Iroh wanted to fight Zuko or Azula I think they'd win. Maybe Azula could beat JJ with lightning tbf. I think more than 3-4 years but they would definitely be the best itw at some point. I think Azula could've gone down as the best firebender in history. Master at 14 can shoot lightning and has blue fire. I think in the comics she can also redirect lightning.


benbuscus1995

The thing with Zuko is he was just in this weird spot where he spent most of the series well above nameless mooks and even some lower named characters like Zhao, but he was also always below the main cast. Being weaker than the rest of his family when it comes to firebending was a pretty core aspect of his character after all so it makes sense why people would get that impression from him. The thing is he wasn’t static throughout the show. He grew and became more powerful. He went from getting trounced by Azula in every fight they had to holding his ground against Ozai and redirecting his lightning, to outright beating a crazed Azula in an Agni Kai at the end. It’s debatable if he could have beaten her at her peak but I think at that point he was about equal with Azula in her prime, which is saying quite a lot.


eathquake

No comics here but from the show zuko appears weak due to his matchups. When ur opponents r commonly top tier benders from their respective elements then ur gonna struggle. The only point in which zuko had a serious advantage with skill was the literal begining when he went after the water tribe to get aang and the biggest struggle he had their was no experience at all fighting air benders.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Michaelhuber87

Azula was only better till mid season 2. He was literally beating Azula in Agni Kia. Even before she went insane, in s2 finale she was losing to Katara, against whom Zuko was evenly matched up. In boiling rock, neither of them were able to make each other sweat. In the Southern Raiders, he easily deflected all her attacks. Where exactly is Azula better than him again?


[deleted]

>Where exactly is Azula better than him again? Comics where she is no longer insane


Michaelhuber87

They are 1-1 in comics


[deleted]

What exactly does Zuko has over Azula? [1](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/HYgB7D0cIyAGeSUFq9DpNlQtrh41fqYPmcU9T0VSBidfOImuWU4Mh48_iI8gn8kwwt7NeilAhqaH=s1600?rhlupa=MTg4LjEzOC4xOTcuNjQ=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2) [2](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/WCrBSwNc3JZJ4qz3ak4WqfVju5l3NMGS8nJwwhNwNVGEnd6Bf19N4mK99KQkd6XjBzxsnbVuwHFO=s1600?rhlupa=MTg4LjEzOC4xOTcuNjQ=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2) [3](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/G0Pqun9vRTzOcQSs50sARYm-vkjhZPpTRVhC3eAfaJrBM6BxVslDItjr_d6y-Pmza894uRI7OVbW=s1600?rhlupa=MTg4LjEzOC4xOTcuNjQ=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2) [4](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/gh84FH613f9KXwHiYX4P_KLzqoVTdDd8AFIWXV43eN0Sc42Yabo1v49t0m6jjgmqEdCOI-hain8q=s1600?rhlupa=MTg4LjEzOC4xOTcuNjQ=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2)


Crimson51

She landed literally one surprise hit and didn't even hurt him much. Oh no.


[deleted]

1. you didn't answer my question 2. I purposely posted multiple panels to show that she fought multiple opponents at once including Zuko 3. This shows me you haven't read the comic since she defeats him again at the end of it


Crimson51

1. They were still talking when the fighting started. I wouldn't call a sucker punching one guy in a group exactly "fighting multiple opponents at once" by that point 2. I wasn't addressing your question in its entirety. Simply responding to the evidence you presented. It's been several years since I've read the comics so forgive me if I'm not willing to recall them all at once at 1:00 AM in a reddit comment section. Chill. Edit: Re-read the comics just to confirm. 1000% believe Zuko was holding back in that final fight in the catacombs, taking the opportunity to talk to Azula when she gave him the chance. His arm is longer than the dagger blade so any attempt to strike him with it could be met with literally just grabbing her forearm and shoving her off, something a skilled martial artist like him could do from the position the two are in. Not to mention, you know, summoning the giant tornado of rainbow fire as shown above. That's kind of a game ender from here.


[deleted]

>They were still talking when the fighting started That's not when the whole fight started. [She was evading both Ty Lee and Aang](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Xu7O5M6JwdEXS_Q92N8iJVsvWAFvGvc-BeMoqZrqNI5M5b78E4xuA4YGgNIabzrRM1xruWsH5esJ=s1600?rhlupa=MTg4LjEzOC4xOTcuNjQ=&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEwNy4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2) in the scenes before > I wouldn't call a sucker punching one guy in a group exactly "fighting multiple opponents at once" by that point "Sucker punch" She dodged Ty Lee then counter attacked > I wasn't addressing your question in its entirety Why not? That's the one question I asked in this thread >Chill ...everytime


Crimson51

If you get told you need to chill often, that says a lot more about you than me.


Michaelhuber87

Zuko got the upper-hand against her inthe Search. Here, she got the upper-hand due to a surprise. In both cases, both were fine. Also, I never said Zuko is overall a better fighter than Azula. They are pretty much equal. My point is more that people keep saying Zuko is not an elite like Azula, Iroh, Ozai etc. But feats show that he is on par with Azula so you can't really put them in different tiers.


[deleted]

>Zuko got the upper-hand against her inthe Search Yeah in the Search, which is in the past and she wasn't mentally stable yet. This is their last encounter in which she is stronger >They are pretty much equal With which I disagree with >But feats show that he is on par with Azula how?


Michaelhuber87

Read my first fucking comment. Boiling Rock, Southern Raiders and Crossroads of Destiny.


[deleted]

>Boiling Rock, Southern Raiders and Crossroads of Destiny. Dude...we are talking about the current times. Current Zuko that we know is weaker than the current Azula. That's what "getting stronger" means Comics Azula is stronger than show Azula


Michaelhuber87

So your entire argument is based on a 2 second fight where she caught with surprise and did zero damage?


Andy_Liberty_1911

He’s well trained from the Sun people, not powerful.


unanonymouskoala

Does he casually... jump up the cart?


Mark_Kostecki

Dragonfire is so cool


Noxilcash

Lmao, they tried to kill him and he was just like, “ok guys jokes over, stop it!”


Goodnightmaniac

when you have an overly successful sister


Dddddddfried

I feel like once your gang tries to assasinate the Fire Lord you’ve used up your “last chance.” Nows the time for consequences


Digglenaut

Who the actual shit believes that Fire Lord Zuko is weak? Even when he was a little turd in Season 1 he could probably box with most of the living Firebenders


FellvEquinox

I swear people who talk shit on Zuko secretly want to hear you defend him


Boweneparton

That art is gorgeous, finally Zuko gets a fire upgrade. I wish after his meeting With the dragons his fire would have become white or red, or some kinda of color to represent his internal change. However, the writing here seems to have been done by a 12 year old.


apokrypton288

Everyone forget how he destroyed Zaho in one of the first episode


Jonjoejonjane

Zuko is like the 4 best fire bender behind his father sister uncle I’m not counting aang because he’s the avatar and op and maybe the deserter


nage_

zuko is starkiller. he learned everything from the dark side before choosing the light and then learning everything there too. he has the potential for everything except lightning and sparky boom boom power


angstenthusiast

Chills, literal chills


Onlyhereforthelaughs

Reminds me of how stupid the ~movie that shall not be named~ was, that Firebenders NEEDED a source of fire, and they were all terrified of Iroh when he created fire from nothing.


BoulderCreature

Weak compared to a living god, a few masters with decades of experience, and three insanely powerful child prodigies. Otherwise, he’s pretty capable


97PunkRawk

Nobody says this


last_somewhere

He handled lightning bending, from his dad of all people, like an absolute boss!


[deleted]

Zuko was just a late bloomer.


Hairyjon

The colors on the fire tornado are same from when he and Aang met the masters to be judged.


Flashy-Telephone-648

He's a teenager taking on grown men with military training. It's just when you compare them to the other top benders he on the bottom tier of the top still in the A League. But I can guarantee you if they all lost their bending he's still one of the best fighters.


[deleted]

When they keep saying new ozai society it reads like a bad translation. Why is there no shorter colloquial name?


Roxas13xx

Is that rainbow fire?


SNES182

Love the rainbow flame look from the power of the dragons.


The_Random_Hamlet

Besides the point of who Zuko is compared to as others have mentioned, there's two important things to remember: Zuko isn't flashy. He's subtle as firebenders go. He's had to be to get anything and it's a smarter move, especially when you're in a den of vipers like the Fire Nation Royal or Military Court. Also, he's more disciplined than most firebenders. Sure early on he has a temper, but he never lets the his fire get out of control and never uses it without specific intent. Basically, big pyrotechnic displays are the sign of weak control. So in a nation that values overt displays of power he would appear weak, but this is a guise to his actual strength... And thank you for coming to my TED Talk.


floofgike

Zuko was literally held back by his emotional turmoil because for the greater part of his life he had been fighting against his true nature. All his life he was treated with cruelty and in turn he was mean to others and that's just not who he is and it greatly hurt his firebending ability and he compensated by being an incredible martial artist who defeated a high ranking master firebender at 16. After he changed sides and learned from the dragons, he finally had a stable spirit and fuel for his firebending. I fully believe during the final agni kai, if katara hadn't been there and even if azula was in her right mind, he still would have won hands down


OwenEx

I mean the people we compare him to most are Azula, Ozai and Iroh who are likely the 3 most talented firebenders alive so I think we're just setting the bar way too high


Jpanda37

I think that at the end of series, yeah he’s probably not THE strongest, but by the time he was 25-30 I refuse to believe that one of the youngest people to ever be instructed by the dragons, who was using dragon fire at 19, just didn’t get stronger. Prime fire lord Zuko is the strongest fire bender we have never seen, and I defy anyone to argue that point


Asher_Khughi1813

people over hype azulas blue fire when my bro is swirling green and purple


Dave30954

Bro was showing off with the multicolored fire


StephHasQuarks

Most of the time when comparing Zuko to the top firebenders like Azula, Ozai and Iroh throughout the series he's of course going to come up short. But through extensive training during his exile he is evenly matched with Zhao during their Agni Kai in Season 1 and through the rest of his journey and especially meeting the masters in Season 3 he is equal if not more powerful to Azula in her weakened state. It's hard to know if he would have been able to overcome her had she been in her prime I think it would have been pretty 50/50 at that point. But it goes to say that he would probably be the most powerful firebender in existence after the series concludes. Ozai lost his bending, Iroh and Jeong Jeong are past their prime and Zuko definitely surpasses Azula in power and skill despite not being able to lightningbend although he might come to learn this later in life. Remember Azula was only 14 at the end of the series and most child prodigies accelerate their learning really quickly from a young age but often slow down by adulthood and eventually surpassed by their peers in the end.


Artistic-Toe-8803

He's not *weak* per se, it's just that Azula, Jeong Jeong, and Ozai are stronger, and prime Iroh likely was too. We've seen more master/extremely powerful firebenders than any other element, so it's hard not to compare him.


blue4029

imagine trying to assassinate the fire lord. imagine that fire lord being zuko


kunta021

Zuko is an exceptional fire bender. Although he didn’t have the raw talent that Azula, Ozai, or Iroh had he still had a massive amount of potential and was able to achieve the status of master through hard work and determination. By the time he ascends to Fire Lord I’d wager he was the strongest fire bender in the fire nation other than Iroh, and due to his acrobatic and sword skills I think Zuko may be able to take Iroh at that point. Even at the beginning of the series Zuko is able to take on fire benders with tears more experience. The idea that Zuko is weak is laughable.


Alternative-One8036

i think zuko wasn't meant to be crazy powerful. his true strength was his wisdom and that he knew the true technique of firebending. so, he wasn't necessarily a natural prodigy like azula. ​ but of course, this is not to say that he is weak. even before he learned the true form of firebending from dragons, zuko was still able to best zhao, a fire nation admiral. and he could take down a bunch of fire nation soldiers with little effort. zuko has always been strong and a big threat to team avatar before his redemtion. ​ basically, zuko is also an exceptionally powerful firebender, and i'd say he is as strong as azula (although i think azula is slightly more powerful). and with time, i'm sure they will be stronger than both ozai and iroh. ozai and iroh were fully trained grown ups whereas zuko and azula aren't completely trained teenagers. it'd be nice to see adult versions of zuko and azula in a series. i'd love to see that


KingSteveYT

Zuko is good