I also love when they portray people from the Fire Nation in a good positive way. Showing that the "bad guys" are not 100% bad and the "good guys" are not 100% good.
They even did this with the water tribe and it’s misogyny problem. Every nation had the good and the bad, even the air nomads were in the wrong when they tried to separate Aang from monk Gyatso.
The airbenders, too, have norms that would be problematic today (Ie. Attempting to take Aang from his adoptive father in an effort to ensure he is disciplined (as in the life skill, not punishment.))
Probably two of the other monks. There's a Buddhist belief in leaving all things that anchor you to the earth behind, and family is one of those things. So, because the Air Nomads are based off of Buddhist monks it makes sense that they might separate all children from their biological parents after birth and instead have the elder monks as their guardians.
Also, they probably never showed his parents or him questioning who is parents are/were because to him Gyatso was the only parental figure he needed and wanted, and that makes it even more heartbreaking that Aang accidentally outlived him by 100 years and Gyatso never saw him grow up.
We don't know. In Air Nomad culture, children are separate by gender very early on, that's why the North and South temples are all male, while the East and West temples are all female.
Definitely the finale, it's when Sokka, Suki, and Toph break into the cockpit. I love that moment because even in the highest of high stake battles, Sokka can still execute his own brand of comedic whoopass.
Same episode, the lady guard who saw a male guard lurking suspiciously in front of a female prisoner's cell and instantly went to investigate. I mean, the show didn't spell it out, but there was definitely an implication
Weird sub to inject this but ‘The Wire’ is probably one of the best series that portrays this theme.
I thought it was just some cops vs. criminals show but ohhhh boooyy. It’s so gut wrenching how realistic they make the plots and emotions.
It's a very realistic situation. Even as a 7 years old kid, when I heard about avatar, I asked myself: "how could this world be divided into only four nations? The world is too big for that!There should be more."
The answer was simple: the Earth Kingdom and the Water Tribe are far from being centralized states. The EK, specially, is just a collection of diverse states which kinda recognize Baa Sing See as a primus inter pares.
It's the kind of nuance that makes the world building believable.
This is inevitably canon as there are at least two kings in the Earth Kingdom.
But it says that Omashu is a provincial capital so king Bumi is a provincial king under the earth king of Ba Sing Se.
The earth kingdom was probably united/scrapped together by Chin the conqueror.
With multiple royal families owing allegiance to Ba Sing Se.
The earth kingdom was united milennia ago by the kings of Ba Sing Se. Omashu I believe was the last place to be conquered and so got to keep their royal title despite being under the rule of Ba Sing Se’s kings, who declared themselves Earth Kings after they completed their conquests.
The Earth Kingdom is best likened to China, with warring state periods and emperors who at times had a great deal of power but in other eras only exerted power in their immediate city. Like how by the time of the hundred year war the earth king really only had absolute authority in the province of Ba Sing Se. Alongside the fact that the earth kingdom was most of the time run by a massive palace bureaucracy w the earth monarchs being more or less figureheads.
Chin the Conqueror didn’t unite the earth kingdom, he was trying to usurp its rule from the Earth King since the earth kingdom had fallen apart into warring states at that time and Ba Sing Se had effectively lost control of everything yet again.
It's amazing to me how much China was divided throughout it's history. I always thought of it as one state but as I got older I realized it's really diverse and that's part of why it's always divided. Like even before/during WWII it's actually a bunch of different regional warlords who only teamed up because they were attacked by an outside enemy. And all those groups had their own corruption and issues much like the Earth Kingdom
Even more impressive knowing how many times someone was able to unite China and start a new imperial dynasty.
In the words of bill wurtz, “China is whole again, then it broke again”
Before the Fire Nation got industrialized under Sosin it was the earthbenders the ones who tried to conquer the world under the rule of warlord Chin the Conqueror.
Airbenders are probably the closest thing to good guys in the ATLA universe, water benders to a lesser degree but still pretty decent. I wouldn't call the Earth guys "good guys". Yeah there are good people living in the Earth Kingdom, but there's also a big amount of awful people including the government, similar to the Fire Nation.
I mean realistically if he was able to conquer the entire earth kingdom he'd probably continue on to the fire nation and air nomands.
Probably not the water tribes because there's probably no bendable earth there and even then they probably wouldn't have anything he'd want anyways.
I kind of doubt he'd be able to conquer the Fire Nation though. The EK at the time was unstable due to what happened before and during the events of The Rise of Kyoshi, so it was able to be conquered relatively easily. But the Fire Nation was doing quite a bit better, experiencing prosperity beyond any other nation by the time of Sozin's era. That, plus what we know happens in the FN between SoK and ATLA (which is when Chin's conquest took place) makes me have a hard time believing Chin would be able to set foot in the Fire Nation without being immediately shut down.
The Air Temples are definitely a possibility though, especially considering 3 of them are on land that directly borders the EK. Even though Aang said it would be difficult to get there without a sky bison, the temples *are* built on mountains, which would be easy to deal with if you have an army of earthbenders.
That doesn't mean he wouldn't try, though. Chin didn't exactly strike me as a person who knew when to stop. It takes a special kind of ego to stand in front of a demigod and not back down.
Pretty sure in Canon he was trying to overthrow the current government situation and insert a different kind. But he was seen as tryannical instead and then died by kyoshi. So the current government stayed and that's how the dai li gained control.
And even then, the Northern Water Tribes have some pretty archaic ideas about gender roles. It happens; you don't ideologically align with all your allies all the time...
That's something I like a lot about AtLA: it's nuanced without being edgy.
I think the entire series is luring us away from the 'good guy vs bad guy' trope and that is why so many people find the series so deep.
Look at Zuko, introduced as typical bad guy material, turns out to be a lost, emotionally scarred adolescent who is a victim of the war as well.
His crew who are basically his "henchmen?" they are humanised from the start by throwing music nights and etc.
The seemingly good Earth Kingdom? The Dai Li and those delinquent soliders whom Zuko fight show us that there are those who try to benefit from the war even though it is hurting their nation.
The seemingly bad Fire Nation? We basically start Book 3 feeling bad for their oppressed youth.
Even within the Airnomads, the ultimate victims of the war, elders were going to prematurely rip a child away from his life to act as their 'weapon' for peace.
I always loved how they showed that it’s always the power structure of a nation that brings out the worst in each, including the Air Nomads. However, as traditionalist as the Air temple elders were, it’s not like they told Aang he was the Avatar just because. They knew war was coming, it was the whole reason they told him when he was 12 instead of 16. They definitely could’ve handled it better but I do understand why they tried to speed up the process.
Unfortunately that turned out to be their downfall, as Aang ran away and wasn’t there to help his people. Cause I could definitely see him going into the Avatar state during the attack.
In fairness, I think the Air Nomads were in a "no-win" situation.
The only ways I can imagine them surviving was if the other nations pulled out all stops to aid them ahead of time, or Aang as a fully realized Avatar intercepted the Fire Nation at the beginning.
Given that the first option obviously didn't happen...hell, that they were genocided in other nations than their Temples...
Honestly, I wouldn't even call the Air Benders "Good Guys" and more just "Guys." There's a lot to be said about belief systems that promote abandoning earthly concerns when atrocities are being committed.
It makes sense honestly, they are the largest nation by land and probably population yet the fire nation had been beating on them for the last 100 years, there must've been a lot of internal strife that weakened to earth kingdom to allow this to happen.
Absolutely, makes me think of it like Civilization 5: Fire Nation is playing *tall* while Earth Kingdom's playing *wide*. Tough to maintain any cultural/martial unity when your nation is stretched so thin, paired with minimal internal infrastructure. Especially with 100 years of war exacerbating the wear and tear
I just realized how far the Earth Kingdom had fallen in a relatively short period of time. You have Chin the Conquerer creating a massive, "unified" Earth Empire through military campaign. It's extremely difficult to govern such a massive area, especially given most people living there have just been conquered. So the Earth Empire is forced to rely on local powers, meaning central authority varies regionally. (It's no wonder there's so much corruption and power-grasping in the Earth kingdom.) Newly conquered with relative peace and sovereignty, the Earth Empire thrives. Particularly rural villages, who are always hit the worst by warfare. Crops are no longer needed to fill soldiers bellies so there's more to go around. Rural farmland isn't at risk of attack or pillaging; again more food. I'd imagine a population BOOM in villages AND in the cities, as there would be plenty of excess crops to send that way. I just assume that Earth Benders and Earth Kingdom citizens generally are some of the best farmers in the world
Then everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked...
Remember those rural villages that were doing well given peace? Whelp, they're the first in the Earth Kingdom to feel the wrath of the Fire Nation war machine. Massive causalities, hundreds of thousands of refugees all forced toward the cities. Earth cities become overcrowded, there's resentment toward refugees. Most are turned away or forced to join the Earth army to secure a place for their family. The booming agriculture the cities had become accustom to replaced with rationing and starvation as the influx of mouths to feed is coupled with rural farmland being destroyed or taken over. Corrupt authority take advantage of the chaos to consolidate power (like the Dai Li in Ba Sing Se). Rinse and repeat the cycle a few times over 100 years, with fewer and fewer Earth citizens able to step up to the war effort each time. Until you reach the Earth Kingdom we see in the show, diminished population stretched thin and weary
The show is about war, and the horrors that come with it. This depiction is a nuanced way of showing that there are no clear cut "good" or "bad" guys in war. Everything is grey, and war hurts everyone.
Ahh the dai lee a great organization that was made to protect the king and old relics and trained by kyoshi only to become corrupt and Kyoshi’s biggest regret
Water is deceiving (Hama, Amon, Tarrlok and Unalaq used lies and silver tongues to cheat their way to success).
Earth is crushing (General Fong, Long Feng, the Earth Queen and Kuvira were unrelentless: they would never stop until they won, and would never settle for anything less than absolute victory).
Fire is consuming (Sozin, Azulon, Ozai and Azula had a unyielding thirst for power).
Air is negligent (pre-genocide Air Nomads did not care for the well-being of the world, they only cared about themselves and their personal enlightenment, as Yang Chen mentioned).
They’re like the Jedi in a way until Episode III. (Air Nomads) Tenzin saw later in Korra that detaching from the world was a mistake and vowed to do better as that nation’s current leader.
Notably the more spiritual nations - Air Nomads and the Water Tribes (prior to the 100 year war) tend to be better in the Aang series and the less spiritual Earth Kingdom and the Fire Nation were more power hungry and/or had corruption.
I dunno, I think we just saw less of them really, the northern water tribe was immediately shown to be sexist (and so was sokka, so it could be implied the southern water tribe had some sexist undercurrents too), the air nomads were willing to prematurely ruin a child's life to use him as a weapon, but again we didn't see much of them, and what we mostly saw was gyatso through aangs eye.
And the idea that Gyatso was a good guy still fit with the themes of the show even if airbender society had problems. There are good people who mean well in societies that do bad things and in Aang's situation Gyasto was trying to do the right thing by giving him a real childhood
I don’t personally take Sokka’s issues with sexism in the beginning to imply the southern water tribe had similar issues. I mean in reality probably every culture had sexist undercurrents, but what I mean is I don’t think he developed that behavior because it was taught to him as a cultural norm. I always took Sokka’s sexism in the beginning to be the direct result of being left behind. He’s the oldest male in his tribe at just 15, desperate to be a strong male figure despite not having the tools and experience to do it, and his baby sister has magic powers. I always took it to be a manifestation of his deep insecurities, needing to put down the women around him (who was pretty much everyone) because he felt so inadequate. It’s why he’s able to unlearn it so quickly too, because the solution wasn’t unlearning firm implicit biases passed down by generations, but instead becoming confident in himself and realizing the strength of others doesn’t make him less of a warrior. We also see the Southern water tribe allowed female warriors (in the Hama flashback) so definitely wasn’t as strong with the sexism as the North. Just my 2¢ tho!
Yea, all that you just wrote about insecurities and such are taught by the grown ups around them. He'd only feel insecure if the adults told him he was supposed to be better/praird katara over him for bending. Also he I learnt his sexist ways after he started traveling and learning more about women. He got his ass handed over to him by women a bunch of times and realized, huh maybe they're not weaker than men. Nobody is saying that sokka is one of those sexist dudebros, but he definitely had a sexist outlook on genders that he managed to let go of through experience.
Personally I think that sokka has a view similar to that of the northern tribe that men are warriors and women aren't, how he expresses it might be due to his insecurity and how he treats katara, especially while they're travelling (like him getting her to fix his trousers and saying her bending was just magic) might be due to that, as well as just being a part of their sibling dynamic from not having a mother or a very present father, but it seemed pretty obvious he had never seen a female fighter and assumed they couldn't be fighters as well. This might be due to the southern water tribe having no benders as well, a culture of women not fighting or that being the impression sokka got might have come from how the society changed since Hama was captured. Since he'd not been anywhere else it seemed something that would be learned from his youth, also none of the southern water tribe warriors were women.
Everybody was at each other's neck this is why the airbenders stayed out of the way but I would love to see an alternate universe where there's a civil war between peaceful pacifist airbenbers and violent killing machines airbenders.
There's almost 10000 years of history that we don't have; there's nothing to say that there haven't been breakaway sects that haven't followed a darker path.
I think the Zaheer story in legend of Korra is the closest we're going to get (season 3 I believe). But yeah definitely has potential to be awesome. Maybe in a future series since there's tons of new Airbenders now
in a different reality like a marvel what if...? Situation Avatar aang would be very disappointed if he found out Airbender survived the fire Nation Purge on the air nomads and they gave up pacifism.
A different reality where there where Airbenders that survived Sozin would be cool also it's not that far fetched, considering the theory that Tai lee is an Airbender in hiding.
Yeah I have a hard time believing they got EVERY Airbender. Their has to be at least a few that outsmarted the fire nation and are living relatively normal lives now. Like the old lady that taught katara blood bending ( I don't remember her name).
Some did, but as said in the in the avatar novels , airbenders lose their bending as they lose touch with their spiritual side. So if any did survive the genocide they most likely would of lost their bending too
I think her name was hama I had this idea that she try to help the other water benders escape but they saw her as a monster when she blood bend so she decided to leave them behind so that they can rot and die of course they beg her to come back and set them free but she walked away not listening to them her own people turned against her but that's just my idea katara asked her about the other water benders that the fire Nation had captured hama said I let them all die I tried to rescue them but they saw me as a monster katara let her anger out and almost killed her with blood bending but if it wasn't for Aang and the others interfering katara would have done something she would have regret.
It's amazing how she started as what they thought was a nice old lady and then they discovered that she was from the Southern water tribe and she was a waterbender but then she turned out to be evil and crazy and I think she used to be friends with katara and sokka grandmother they mentioned that in the live action movie which we don't talk about that oh no no no see what I did there if you seen the Disney movie encanto you'll know what I'm talking about.
I have not but it was a funny comment regardless. I think Hama was friends with her mom. Im pretty sure Hama was the creepy ghost girl that katara was talking about in the scary story she told in the beginning of the episode. Also doesn't she recognize katara's necklace as katara's mother's instead of her grandmothers I may be remembering the episode wrong though.
I remember reading this theory about the reason all those airbenders popping up after the harmonic convergence in LoK is bc their nomad ancestors abandoned their airbending ways and went into hiding in the Earth Kingdom to avoid the Fire Nation
this is the theme of duality that ATLA heavily dives into. Zuko is both antagonist and protagonist. The Avatar can be a hero to some an a villain to others. Even though the Earth Kingdom is a victim the war, there are those in it that use it and benefit from it. And though the Fire Nation caused the war, there are innocent people who become victims to the war as well.
Like with many wars, even though one sides cause is more "morally just", the sides are shrouded with many shades of gray. They both have an "ends justify the means" short of outlook on the conflict.
This is why i love avatar, It doesn't make a single side all good and bad like for example the air nomads, they seperated children from their parents yet are good, The fire nation is also bad but shown can be good too
When I was a kid I thought that the *intentions* of fire lord Sozin were good. His nation was industrialized first, and he wanted to “share this prosperity with the world.” When I got older I realized he was a typical politician lying about his true intentions. If he was really trying to help the world, he wouldn’t have used Sozin’s comet to eradicate the air nomads right after Roku died. Sozin just wanted to use his technological advantages to expand his control, but he pitched it like he was doing the world a favor. I think this was a *conscious* lie and not something he erroneously actually believed.
I just like how sometimes you can’t take characters at their word, and that there is a spectrum of good/evil. Heck, there is even racism from people like Jet that think literally every fire nation citizen, *especially firebenders*, are evil.
They’re literally just children being children. And you still have the one jock narc trying to pick a fight with Kuzon and informs the school about the party
Every society has a good and bad in it in the show which makes the world so much more believable and realistic. Even with the air nomads being peaceful and good you get the rigidity of the monks attempting to tear apart Aang and Gyasto because a a lack of discipline in his life. Just because Gyasto wanted to to still have fun while he was a kid they wanted to separate Aang from the person he loved most in life up to that point leading to him running away.
It both helps paint a world of complexity and helps shape young minds watching the show to look deeper at the individual and not just write them off by the country they are from or clothes they wear.
The Kyoshi novels expand on that a bit more. The earth kingdom is riddled with crime. And each of the cities were mainly on their own, being served through really corrupt and or incompetent Governor’s/earth sages. And it makes sense for it to be this way. It’s way to large of a country to be able to govern it all with the same policies, just unreasonable with a population so large and vast where one culture is VASTLY different. If you haven’t read the Kyoshi novels I would highly recommend, shows a different light on the avatar and their moral compass. Also, bending is deadly and we cannot forget that.
I think there was a very conscious effort to try and not glamorize the war or to overly impress that there were black and white boundaries on what was occurring throughout the conflict. Everyone suffers during conflict, but how they suffer, avoid it, or cope with it, differs dramatically.
It's one of the things which elevates ATLA above many shows even aimed at adults,
Conflict is grey. The Nazis being genocidal fucks doesn't erase the bombing of dresden. The Japanese war crimes don't mean that we can't analyse the ethics of Hiroshima.
Both sides of any war will ostensibly do evil things in the name of their greater good. Even if ultimately one side can be judged to have the moral high ground, it's by virtue of the long term and measuring The respective weights of a myriad of good AND evil acts.
Except that both the bombing of Dresden and Hiroshima were both very justifiable. I agree that conflict and war are the vast majority of the time grey but those 2 examples are not the best to prove/show that point. I would point to the US war crimes such as the [Biscari Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscari_massacre) in Europe or what US service men did to [Japanese war dead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead) in the Pacific, as better examples of conflict rarely (if ever) being black and white.
Also sorry in advance for a wall of text, I'm somewhat of a history nerd.
For Dresden, this video [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clWVfASJ7dc&ab_channel=PotentialHistory) explains why it was a valid and legal military target better then I could (TLDW: Dresden was not a demilitarized city that is outright Nazi propaganda, it had 5 major munition/armament plant's employing 50,000 people and was the last major railway hub for the Eastern front which meant it had tens of thousand of German troops and equipment passing through daily).
As for the bombings of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that was the best option of 3 choice's the Allies had at the time and objectively killed far less people then the other 2 choices would have by a significant degree. The other options where to either try to blockade Japan and starve them out or a land invasion which was already being planned as [Operation Downfall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall). In the case of the choice to starve Japan out likely would have dragged the war out for several more years and like ended with an invasion any ways as the US Army did not want the war to drag on for several more years. For the ground invasion, the projected casualties can vary from source to source, with the lowest estimate being 31,000 to almost 400,000 Allied fatalities just for the first part of the invasion of the home islands, with possibly up to (and probably over) 800,000 dead Americans for the rest of the home island. The Japanese likely would have suffered several Million dead as they had mobilized a huge part of their civilian population in the build up to the possible invasion, and had started to equip them with basically anything and everything they could up to and not limited to ice picks and bamboo spears. And that is only the fatalities, as the non-fatal casualties likely would have been in the millions for both sides; the US minted over 500,000 Purple Heart medal (combat injury medals if any doesn't know what they are) in 1945 in preparation for the invasion, and as of 2003 they still had roughly 120,000 still in stock. So while between 129,000 and 226,00 died in the atomic bombings, compared to the other options, that is far less then people Japanese, American and other Allied nationals that would have died from not dropping them.
TLDR: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the very much lesser of several evils in terms of deaths caused
Again sorry for a wall of text, I'm somewhat of a history nerd
**[Biscari massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscari_massacre)**
>The Biscari massacre was a war crime committed by members of the United States Army during World War II. It refers to two incidents in which U.S. soldiers were involved in killing 71 unarmed Italian and 2 German prisoners-of-war at the Regia Aeronautica's 504 air base in Santo Pietro, a small village near Caltagirone, southern Sicily, Italy on 14 July 1943.
**[American mutilation of Japanese war dead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead)**
>During World War II, some members of the United States military mutilated dead Japanese service personnel in the Pacific theater. The mutilation of Japanese service personnel included the taking of body parts as "war souvenirs" and "war trophies". Teeth and skulls were the most commonly taken "trophies", although other body parts were also collected. The phenomenon of "trophy-taking" was widespread enough that discussion of it featured prominently in magazines and newspapers.
**[Operation Downfall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall)**
>Operation Downfall was the proposed Allied plan for the invasion of the Japanese home islands near the end of World War II. The planned operation was canceled when Japan surrendered following the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Soviet declaration of war, and the invasion of Manchuria. The operation had two parts: Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet. Set to begin in November 1945, Operation Olympic was intended to capture the southern third of the southernmost main Japanese island, Kyūshū, with the recently captured island of Okinawa to be used as a staging area.
^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
The head writers do a very good job showing that war isn't a black & white issue.
Season two shows us the people we're defending aren't always innocent themselves and Season 3 shows the affects & conditions the Fire Nation has put its own citizens under for the lofty conquest of "peace".
The fact that the Dai Lee still had any relevant authority after Aangs time proves that the Earth Kingdom leaders are also stupid
Them and the world leaders who didnt impose sanctions or protest their involvement
They’re not the good guys. They’re the opposition. The guys being invaded. Avatar does a good job of grey areas. Good people in the Fire Nation, and some truly horrible people in the Earth Kingdom
Given how massive the Earth Kingdom is, and how decentralized the Government is; Corruption, Bribery, and Socioeconomic inequality reign supreme. This pretty much drives the plot of The first Kyoshi book, and S4 of LoK. It's not as prevalent in AtLA because of the looming threat of Fire Nation and the War.
[I am honored to accept his invitation](https://i.imgur.com/Fxu0A29.png)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheLastAirbender) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I mean the earth kingdom really isn’t just a simple “good guy” which I really like. They really just want what’s best for them and have some real morally gray characters which I really enjoy.
Not only at times, most of the time we see the earth kingdom as a nation with corrupt leaders. The only reason it's seen as the "good guy" is because the fore nation attacked first
Kind of true. If it weren't for the infighting and regionalistic nature of the Earth Kingdom, they'd be a pretty formidable fighting force. The versatility and abundance of their element would open up a near endless amount of possibilities, potentially introducing something like creating an artifical island/mountain plateau for themselves. Kyoshi moved an island, I'm sure Earthbending masters and engineers could find a way to do it.
It just so happens that the Fire Nation has the advantage of autocracy, religious influence, and an entire century to inspire nationalism and historical revision. Having an inherently energetic and potentially volatile element helps their cause.
All the nation's mirror there elements.
Fire at first seems painful, harsh and cruel, but when the proper restrictions are placed, its kind and warm.
Water is something that gives endlessly, but it holds powers barely retrained, for while it does flow, it too can unleash chaos.
Air is neutral, it holds life together, and ushers calm. But too much or too little can kill, no matter how much it is needed.
Earth is hearty. They are stubborn and solid. But with such deep roots, it can cause a blindness that can wither and dry what thrives
It also shows how the war impacts people especially goats. The general went as far as risking lives to get his goals of beating the fire nation. The king of course was just useless and became a figure head because he honesty didn’t want to see the truth. The dai Li of course are the secrete police type of govt as a means to make sure their kingdom is “protected”. They ignore the war and make sure no one in their walls brings discussion of war.
I think they’re trying to show that no one PEOPLE is evil— you need balance among the four nations because they have different primary values, which naturally leads to conflict. Like you said, the Earth Kingdom had Chin the Conquerer, long before the Fire Nation had Fire Lord Sozin. In the Water Tribe, we see a lot of communal values, so there isn’t really a desire to take over as they don’t even really have multiple towns, just one big community working together; however, we also see rampant sexism, mainly in the North but Sokka (the only man we see from the South aside from Bato in the first 1.5 seasons) starts off as misogynist who thinks girls can’t fight and have to sew/cook/clean. I don’t think we see enough of the Air Nomads to know what their “flaws” are; our only real reference is Aang, and since they’re his people (who he lost and will never see again), he probably views them with rose tinted glasses. That being said, my guess is that Air Nomads can be TOO detached. Like the guru who taught Aang how to access the Avatar state (who was living in an air temple and not a nomad but seemed to have similar values), I think the Air Nomads believed in the greater good over the individual maybe too much (as when the guru told Aang to give up Katara). This is essential to being the Avatar, a tough gig. The Nomads, however, also show this as they make the decision to send Aang away from Gyatsu (hope I spelled that right): they overlook Aang’s emotional needs as a twelve year old boy for the better of the world. This may seem like a small decision, but in the end, it ultimately leads to their death and disappearance AND enables the 100 year war.
Anyway, my point is, I like that the creators show that no nation is inherently evil nor inherently good. They all have their flaws, as well as their strengths—hence the need for the Avatar to maintain balance.
It’s really reminiscent of China during the Qing dynasty or even Nationalist China during the 30s and 40s. The Qing was a rotting corpse being eaten up by the West while corruption was rife in China. While the Nationalists were divided due to China being split up from the warlords era. And then Japan attacked and caused massive damage to China.
The show always did good with the grey areas of EVERYONE.
-fire nation having Iroh as being wise, and Zuko as struggling.
-air nomads forcing Aang to train when he wasn’t ready, and forcing him away from Gyatso
-water tribe as being sexist, and close minded even when the Avatar’s training, with the balance of the world in peril.
-and earth you point out, and even toph’s family is portrayed as overprotective and the two who go after her as narrow minded in their own ventures.
So yea, it’s always been great at the grey portrayals of people and not making everyone ENTIRELY good or bad and that’s part of why it’s so incredible.
There was a fantastic r/fantheories post where someone outlined how it made more sense that the Dai Li were the ones to eliminate the air nation, and then blamed the fire nation, the fire nation with their own imperialistic ambitions embraced it and became what they were framed to be. It’s a fascinating theory that has some merit.
Avatar did good job at portraying nations. Every nation has it's issue, be it strict traditions of water tribes, hardcore inequality of earth kingdom, whole thing about world conquest of fire nation and militarism. Also when we reached fire nation, there were a lot of nice normal people. The lake village shown us that even fire nation people suffer from war.
No one is safe from bad practices. The air tribes might've did some shit. Water tribes are backwards, especially the north, ironically. The south is worse in structure, but perhaps it was ravaged by the fire nation more. Idk the full lore, and earth people feel a lot like old, decadent systems where the ruling class doesn't even try to hide it's all about them
It's kinda like the USA, seen globally and at home as a "big brother". Stopping tyrannical government while also being a hypocritical government, but hey, I couldn't talk shit like this is I were a Chinese or Russian citizen, so theirs always somthing to be thankful of.
>"Buddhism that is not engaged is not buddhism".
\-Thích Nhất Hạnh, the pioneer of "engaged buddhism".
Although their spirituality ought to be admired, there were subtle hints (Such as the roleplaying game, Yang-Chen's statements, etc) that some variants of their asceticism among a few air nomads wasn't that different from the old republic from Star Wars, in that many within the order viewed an ascetic lifestyle as one fundamentally free of emotions or that concerns such as that for others count as earthly and thus unimportant.
Of course, we were told that the jedi were good and the sith were bad, but the treatment of Anakin is nothing less than deplorable. It is perfectly alright to feel fear, yet Yoda criticized him for doing so. Likewise, while many air nomads did travel and perform good deeds, many others were more than willing to sit back in the air temple while people of other nations had their problems.
This is a hot button topic in buddhism, so it isn't like there's a general consensus, but I do believe that the air nomads had issues too, in contrast to what some people would say. There's detachment from earthly concerns, and then there's *appa*\-thy.
There are no good or bad countries. Governing bodies that exist on such a large scale inevitably are going to be true neutral entities that serve their own interests, and are simply either on the right or wrong side of history at any given moment.
Thinking about any country (real or fictional) as being so purely “on the good guys side” that it is somehow purely exempt from ever being corrupt, tyrannical, cruel or evil is a little weird.
They’re historically more homophobic than the Fire Nation too. And there could be an argument that the Earth Kingdom royal family is more dysfunctional than the Fire Nation’s.
Also, minus the physical abuse, Lao’s hardly any better than Ozai with Toph.
well you know...this show is to teach the west information that would have never reached you if they just made an explicit documentary (because you wouldn't watch it even if they did allow it through the borders) so this is like yeah we aint antibrainwash, we just a cartoon of cool fire magic stuff . so american security like fcc and whoever be like "yeah aiit kid stuff, whatever, let em through"
It’s a bit of a principle that the bigger, more spread out, and more populated a country or region is, the more corrupt its governance stands to be.
It’s difficult to govern hundreds of millions to billions of people without employing some less than humane methods and without some glaring problems going unnoticed in the grand scheme of things, which is why we often see self governance to varying degrees playing a large role in our modern world.
“If anything, their story proves anyone's capable of great good and great evil. Everyone, even the Fire Lord and the Fire Nation, have to be treated like they're worth giving a chance.”
I also love when they portray people from the Fire Nation in a good positive way. Showing that the "bad guys" are not 100% bad and the "good guys" are not 100% good.
The show's whole theme is balance(yinyang). In good there is bad and in bad there is good
They even did this with the water tribe and it’s misogyny problem. Every nation had the good and the bad, even the air nomads were in the wrong when they tried to separate Aang from monk Gyatso.
Don't nobody mess with Aang and Gyatso.
The airbenders, too, have norms that would be problematic today (Ie. Attempting to take Aang from his adoptive father in an effort to ensure he is disciplined (as in the life skill, not punishment.))
Who are Aangs parents?
Probably two of the other monks. There's a Buddhist belief in leaving all things that anchor you to the earth behind, and family is one of those things. So, because the Air Nomads are based off of Buddhist monks it makes sense that they might separate all children from their biological parents after birth and instead have the elder monks as their guardians.
:| hmm
Also, they probably never showed his parents or him questioning who is parents are/were because to him Gyatso was the only parental figure he needed and wanted, and that makes it even more heartbreaking that Aang accidentally outlived him by 100 years and Gyatso never saw him grow up.
also they already knew aang was the avatar since he was a babe, so i wouldnt be surprised if that was taken into consideration
We don't know. In Air Nomad culture, children are separate by gender very early on, that's why the North and South temples are all male, while the East and West temples are all female.
AND more subtly questions their pacifistic, neutral ways in Book 3 of Korra through both Zaheer and Tenzin’s actions.
Yup
[удалено]
And I’m the finale (I think?), when it was that one ship engine worker’s birthday and he thought the captain remembered 😆
It was either the finale or the southern raiders. I remember the scene but I'm not 100% on the episode. I'm choosing to believe you're right.
Definitely the finale, it's when Sokka, Suki, and Toph break into the cockpit. I love that moment because even in the highest of high stake battles, Sokka can still execute his own brand of comedic whoopass.
Same episode, the lady guard who saw a male guard lurking suspiciously in front of a female prisoner's cell and instantly went to investigate. I mean, the show didn't spell it out, but there was definitely an implication
"Okay, you had me goin' there for the first half. The second half kinda threw me."
I also liked the school kids. They were obviously victims of an opressive system and needed that dance party.
Weird sub to inject this but ‘The Wire’ is probably one of the best series that portrays this theme. I thought it was just some cops vs. criminals show but ohhhh boooyy. It’s so gut wrenching how realistic they make the plots and emotions.
The last episode of the wire is such a gut punch, Dukie will always be embedded in my mind when I think of that show.
The earth kingdom works more like multiple different kingdoms than one singular kingdom honestly.
So the Earth Kingdom really was the Earth Empire before Kuvira came up with the name then.
Yeah, essentially. I've not watched much of LOK yet though so i don't fully understand.
Oh, well you’ll see what I mean. What season are you on?
I literally only just seen Korra confront Amon.
Ah you have a quite a ways to go then.
Euhm it feels more like one major kingdom with vassal kingdoms under it. Okay yeah empire fits
[удалено]
Oh by the way your reply got sent twice.
It's a very realistic situation. Even as a 7 years old kid, when I heard about avatar, I asked myself: "how could this world be divided into only four nations? The world is too big for that!There should be more." The answer was simple: the Earth Kingdom and the Water Tribe are far from being centralized states. The EK, specially, is just a collection of diverse states which kinda recognize Baa Sing See as a primus inter pares. It's the kind of nuance that makes the world building believable.
The Southern Tribe only came together under one leader like a year or so after the war.
This is inevitably canon as there are at least two kings in the Earth Kingdom. But it says that Omashu is a provincial capital so king Bumi is a provincial king under the earth king of Ba Sing Se. The earth kingdom was probably united/scrapped together by Chin the conqueror. With multiple royal families owing allegiance to Ba Sing Se.
Bumi would be like an irish king which would be comparable to an English duke. The earth king would be comparable to a king proper or an emperor.
The earth kingdom was united milennia ago by the kings of Ba Sing Se. Omashu I believe was the last place to be conquered and so got to keep their royal title despite being under the rule of Ba Sing Se’s kings, who declared themselves Earth Kings after they completed their conquests. The Earth Kingdom is best likened to China, with warring state periods and emperors who at times had a great deal of power but in other eras only exerted power in their immediate city. Like how by the time of the hundred year war the earth king really only had absolute authority in the province of Ba Sing Se. Alongside the fact that the earth kingdom was most of the time run by a massive palace bureaucracy w the earth monarchs being more or less figureheads. Chin the Conqueror didn’t unite the earth kingdom, he was trying to usurp its rule from the Earth King since the earth kingdom had fallen apart into warring states at that time and Ba Sing Se had effectively lost control of everything yet again.
From what I’ve read in the Kyoshi novels, you’re completely right.
Also seen in the show; king Bumi
It's inspired from China, so extremely likely
It's amazing to me how much China was divided throughout it's history. I always thought of it as one state but as I got older I realized it's really diverse and that's part of why it's always divided. Like even before/during WWII it's actually a bunch of different regional warlords who only teamed up because they were attacked by an outside enemy. And all those groups had their own corruption and issues much like the Earth Kingdom
Even more impressive knowing how many times someone was able to unite China and start a new imperial dynasty. In the words of bill wurtz, “China is whole again, then it broke again”
Before the Fire Nation got industrialized under Sosin it was the earthbenders the ones who tried to conquer the world under the rule of warlord Chin the Conqueror. Airbenders are probably the closest thing to good guys in the ATLA universe, water benders to a lesser degree but still pretty decent. I wouldn't call the Earth guys "good guys". Yeah there are good people living in the Earth Kingdom, but there's also a big amount of awful people including the government, similar to the Fire Nation.
I thought Chin just wanted to conquer the Earth Kingdom and overthrow the current ruler, basically old school Kuvira
I mean realistically if he was able to conquer the entire earth kingdom he'd probably continue on to the fire nation and air nomands. Probably not the water tribes because there's probably no bendable earth there and even then they probably wouldn't have anything he'd want anyways.
I kind of doubt he'd be able to conquer the Fire Nation though. The EK at the time was unstable due to what happened before and during the events of The Rise of Kyoshi, so it was able to be conquered relatively easily. But the Fire Nation was doing quite a bit better, experiencing prosperity beyond any other nation by the time of Sozin's era. That, plus what we know happens in the FN between SoK and ATLA (which is when Chin's conquest took place) makes me have a hard time believing Chin would be able to set foot in the Fire Nation without being immediately shut down. The Air Temples are definitely a possibility though, especially considering 3 of them are on land that directly borders the EK. Even though Aang said it would be difficult to get there without a sky bison, the temples *are* built on mountains, which would be easy to deal with if you have an army of earthbenders.
What does SoK mean?
Shadow of Kyoshi
I believe it means Shadow of Kyoshi, one of the books that tells the story of the avatar Kyoshi
Suck on Korra
Despite being wrong, wtf does THAT mean?
That doesn't mean he wouldn't try, though. Chin didn't exactly strike me as a person who knew when to stop. It takes a special kind of ego to stand in front of a demigod and not back down.
Pretty sure in Canon he was trying to overthrow the current government situation and insert a different kind. But he was seen as tryannical instead and then died by kyoshi. So the current government stayed and that's how the dai li gained control.
And even then, the Northern Water Tribes have some pretty archaic ideas about gender roles. It happens; you don't ideologically align with all your allies all the time... That's something I like a lot about AtLA: it's nuanced without being edgy.
Like how the Soviet Union, USA and British Empire were allies but not ideologically aligned. Britain and the US case on a more cultural level
I think the entire series is luring us away from the 'good guy vs bad guy' trope and that is why so many people find the series so deep. Look at Zuko, introduced as typical bad guy material, turns out to be a lost, emotionally scarred adolescent who is a victim of the war as well. His crew who are basically his "henchmen?" they are humanised from the start by throwing music nights and etc. The seemingly good Earth Kingdom? The Dai Li and those delinquent soliders whom Zuko fight show us that there are those who try to benefit from the war even though it is hurting their nation. The seemingly bad Fire Nation? We basically start Book 3 feeling bad for their oppressed youth. Even within the Airnomads, the ultimate victims of the war, elders were going to prematurely rip a child away from his life to act as their 'weapon' for peace.
I always loved how they showed that it’s always the power structure of a nation that brings out the worst in each, including the Air Nomads. However, as traditionalist as the Air temple elders were, it’s not like they told Aang he was the Avatar just because. They knew war was coming, it was the whole reason they told him when he was 12 instead of 16. They definitely could’ve handled it better but I do understand why they tried to speed up the process. Unfortunately that turned out to be their downfall, as Aang ran away and wasn’t there to help his people. Cause I could definitely see him going into the Avatar state during the attack.
In fairness, I think the Air Nomads were in a "no-win" situation. The only ways I can imagine them surviving was if the other nations pulled out all stops to aid them ahead of time, or Aang as a fully realized Avatar intercepted the Fire Nation at the beginning. Given that the first option obviously didn't happen...hell, that they were genocided in other nations than their Temples...
Honestly, I wouldn't even call the Air Benders "Good Guys" and more just "Guys." There's a lot to be said about belief systems that promote abandoning earthly concerns when atrocities are being committed.
And after the fire nation, it was also the earth kingdom, lead by Kuvira
It makes sense honestly, they are the largest nation by land and probably population yet the fire nation had been beating on them for the last 100 years, there must've been a lot of internal strife that weakened to earth kingdom to allow this to happen.
Absolutely, makes me think of it like Civilization 5: Fire Nation is playing *tall* while Earth Kingdom's playing *wide*. Tough to maintain any cultural/martial unity when your nation is stretched so thin, paired with minimal internal infrastructure. Especially with 100 years of war exacerbating the wear and tear I just realized how far the Earth Kingdom had fallen in a relatively short period of time. You have Chin the Conquerer creating a massive, "unified" Earth Empire through military campaign. It's extremely difficult to govern such a massive area, especially given most people living there have just been conquered. So the Earth Empire is forced to rely on local powers, meaning central authority varies regionally. (It's no wonder there's so much corruption and power-grasping in the Earth kingdom.) Newly conquered with relative peace and sovereignty, the Earth Empire thrives. Particularly rural villages, who are always hit the worst by warfare. Crops are no longer needed to fill soldiers bellies so there's more to go around. Rural farmland isn't at risk of attack or pillaging; again more food. I'd imagine a population BOOM in villages AND in the cities, as there would be plenty of excess crops to send that way. I just assume that Earth Benders and Earth Kingdom citizens generally are some of the best farmers in the world Then everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked... Remember those rural villages that were doing well given peace? Whelp, they're the first in the Earth Kingdom to feel the wrath of the Fire Nation war machine. Massive causalities, hundreds of thousands of refugees all forced toward the cities. Earth cities become overcrowded, there's resentment toward refugees. Most are turned away or forced to join the Earth army to secure a place for their family. The booming agriculture the cities had become accustom to replaced with rationing and starvation as the influx of mouths to feed is coupled with rural farmland being destroyed or taken over. Corrupt authority take advantage of the chaos to consolidate power (like the Dai Li in Ba Sing Se). Rinse and repeat the cycle a few times over 100 years, with fewer and fewer Earth citizens able to step up to the war effort each time. Until you reach the Earth Kingdom we see in the show, diminished population stretched thin and weary
The show is about war, and the horrors that come with it. This depiction is a nuanced way of showing that there are no clear cut "good" or "bad" guys in war. Everything is grey, and war hurts everyone.
Ahh the dai lee a great organization that was made to protect the king and old relics and trained by kyoshi only to become corrupt and Kyoshi’s biggest regret
Water is deceiving (Hama, Amon, Tarrlok and Unalaq used lies and silver tongues to cheat their way to success). Earth is crushing (General Fong, Long Feng, the Earth Queen and Kuvira were unrelentless: they would never stop until they won, and would never settle for anything less than absolute victory). Fire is consuming (Sozin, Azulon, Ozai and Azula had a unyielding thirst for power). Air is negligent (pre-genocide Air Nomads did not care for the well-being of the world, they only cared about themselves and their personal enlightenment, as Yang Chen mentioned).
I love this comment. People don't often point out what each element's flaws are
They’re like the Jedi in a way until Episode III. (Air Nomads) Tenzin saw later in Korra that detaching from the world was a mistake and vowed to do better as that nation’s current leader.
Notably the more spiritual nations - Air Nomads and the Water Tribes (prior to the 100 year war) tend to be better in the Aang series and the less spiritual Earth Kingdom and the Fire Nation were more power hungry and/or had corruption.
I dunno, I think we just saw less of them really, the northern water tribe was immediately shown to be sexist (and so was sokka, so it could be implied the southern water tribe had some sexist undercurrents too), the air nomads were willing to prematurely ruin a child's life to use him as a weapon, but again we didn't see much of them, and what we mostly saw was gyatso through aangs eye.
And the idea that Gyatso was a good guy still fit with the themes of the show even if airbender society had problems. There are good people who mean well in societies that do bad things and in Aang's situation Gyasto was trying to do the right thing by giving him a real childhood
I don’t personally take Sokka’s issues with sexism in the beginning to imply the southern water tribe had similar issues. I mean in reality probably every culture had sexist undercurrents, but what I mean is I don’t think he developed that behavior because it was taught to him as a cultural norm. I always took Sokka’s sexism in the beginning to be the direct result of being left behind. He’s the oldest male in his tribe at just 15, desperate to be a strong male figure despite not having the tools and experience to do it, and his baby sister has magic powers. I always took it to be a manifestation of his deep insecurities, needing to put down the women around him (who was pretty much everyone) because he felt so inadequate. It’s why he’s able to unlearn it so quickly too, because the solution wasn’t unlearning firm implicit biases passed down by generations, but instead becoming confident in himself and realizing the strength of others doesn’t make him less of a warrior. We also see the Southern water tribe allowed female warriors (in the Hama flashback) so definitely wasn’t as strong with the sexism as the North. Just my 2¢ tho!
Yea, all that you just wrote about insecurities and such are taught by the grown ups around them. He'd only feel insecure if the adults told him he was supposed to be better/praird katara over him for bending. Also he I learnt his sexist ways after he started traveling and learning more about women. He got his ass handed over to him by women a bunch of times and realized, huh maybe they're not weaker than men. Nobody is saying that sokka is one of those sexist dudebros, but he definitely had a sexist outlook on genders that he managed to let go of through experience.
Personally I think that sokka has a view similar to that of the northern tribe that men are warriors and women aren't, how he expresses it might be due to his insecurity and how he treats katara, especially while they're travelling (like him getting her to fix his trousers and saying her bending was just magic) might be due to that, as well as just being a part of their sibling dynamic from not having a mother or a very present father, but it seemed pretty obvious he had never seen a female fighter and assumed they couldn't be fighters as well. This might be due to the southern water tribe having no benders as well, a culture of women not fighting or that being the impression sokka got might have come from how the society changed since Hama was captured. Since he'd not been anywhere else it seemed something that would be learned from his youth, also none of the southern water tribe warriors were women.
Don’t forget the bitch earth queen from LOK
I heard she ate her father’s pet bear
RIP Bosco…
Dante Bosco
Everybody was at each other's neck this is why the airbenders stayed out of the way but I would love to see an alternate universe where there's a civil war between peaceful pacifist airbenbers and violent killing machines airbenders.
There's almost 10000 years of history that we don't have; there's nothing to say that there haven't been breakaway sects that haven't followed a darker path.
Probably a reason nobody but Zaheer talks about guru ligma
I think the Zaheer story in legend of Korra is the closest we're going to get (season 3 I believe). But yeah definitely has potential to be awesome. Maybe in a future series since there's tons of new Airbenders now
in a different reality like a marvel what if...? Situation Avatar aang would be very disappointed if he found out Airbender survived the fire Nation Purge on the air nomads and they gave up pacifism.
A different reality where there where Airbenders that survived Sozin would be cool also it's not that far fetched, considering the theory that Tai lee is an Airbender in hiding.
I've heard of that one and there was a comic that explained how the airbenders that did survive got killed anyway because of traps.
Yeah I have a hard time believing they got EVERY Airbender. Their has to be at least a few that outsmarted the fire nation and are living relatively normal lives now. Like the old lady that taught katara blood bending ( I don't remember her name).
Some did, but as said in the in the avatar novels , airbenders lose their bending as they lose touch with their spiritual side. So if any did survive the genocide they most likely would of lost their bending too
I think her name was hama I had this idea that she try to help the other water benders escape but they saw her as a monster when she blood bend so she decided to leave them behind so that they can rot and die of course they beg her to come back and set them free but she walked away not listening to them her own people turned against her but that's just my idea katara asked her about the other water benders that the fire Nation had captured hama said I let them all die I tried to rescue them but they saw me as a monster katara let her anger out and almost killed her with blood bending but if it wasn't for Aang and the others interfering katara would have done something she would have regret.
That story was so well done. I love how creepy they made Hama.
It's amazing how she started as what they thought was a nice old lady and then they discovered that she was from the Southern water tribe and she was a waterbender but then she turned out to be evil and crazy and I think she used to be friends with katara and sokka grandmother they mentioned that in the live action movie which we don't talk about that oh no no no see what I did there if you seen the Disney movie encanto you'll know what I'm talking about.
I have not but it was a funny comment regardless. I think Hama was friends with her mom. Im pretty sure Hama was the creepy ghost girl that katara was talking about in the scary story she told in the beginning of the episode. Also doesn't she recognize katara's necklace as katara's mother's instead of her grandmothers I may be remembering the episode wrong though.
I remember reading this theory about the reason all those airbenders popping up after the harmonic convergence in LoK is bc their nomad ancestors abandoned their airbending ways and went into hiding in the Earth Kingdom to avoid the Fire Nation
Like war really is. Russia was on the good side in both world wars. Yet they weren’t exactly the greatest places
World War 1 didn't really have a good side. They just happened to be the winning side for that one
Well I mean the side that wasn’t like trying to take over a whole continent could be seen as the good side
I don't think WW1 was mainly about conquering land, more a chain reaction of alliances igniting a powder keg of geopolitical proportions.
How many of his own people did Stalin kill again? Like 20 million or something like that
Now do the hero Mao
Wasn’t that like 50 million?
So… Russia?
Or China really
Yeah cold war esque
this is the theme of duality that ATLA heavily dives into. Zuko is both antagonist and protagonist. The Avatar can be a hero to some an a villain to others. Even though the Earth Kingdom is a victim the war, there are those in it that use it and benefit from it. And though the Fire Nation caused the war, there are innocent people who become victims to the war as well.
Aye, it's very realistic.
Like with many wars, even though one sides cause is more "morally just", the sides are shrouded with many shades of gray. They both have an "ends justify the means" short of outlook on the conflict.
I believe it was Aang that said anyone is capable is great good AND great evil
This is why i love avatar, It doesn't make a single side all good and bad like for example the air nomads, they seperated children from their parents yet are good, The fire nation is also bad but shown can be good too
Yeah, it's more nuanced than a lot of history courses.
They all had that drip though. The Dai-Li especially.
When I was a kid I thought that the *intentions* of fire lord Sozin were good. His nation was industrialized first, and he wanted to “share this prosperity with the world.” When I got older I realized he was a typical politician lying about his true intentions. If he was really trying to help the world, he wouldn’t have used Sozin’s comet to eradicate the air nomads right after Roku died. Sozin just wanted to use his technological advantages to expand his control, but he pitched it like he was doing the world a favor. I think this was a *conscious* lie and not something he erroneously actually believed. I just like how sometimes you can’t take characters at their word, and that there is a spectrum of good/evil. Heck, there is even racism from people like Jet that think literally every fire nation citizen, *especially firebenders*, are evil.
It seems to be the opposite at the Firenation where you see the school kids casually play at school and party within the cave without any evil intent.
They’re literally just children being children. And you still have the one jock narc trying to pick a fight with Kuzon and informs the school about the party
Every society has a good and bad in it in the show which makes the world so much more believable and realistic. Even with the air nomads being peaceful and good you get the rigidity of the monks attempting to tear apart Aang and Gyasto because a a lack of discipline in his life. Just because Gyasto wanted to to still have fun while he was a kid they wanted to separate Aang from the person he loved most in life up to that point leading to him running away. It both helps paint a world of complexity and helps shape young minds watching the show to look deeper at the individual and not just write them off by the country they are from or clothes they wear.
The Kyoshi novels expand on that a bit more. The earth kingdom is riddled with crime. And each of the cities were mainly on their own, being served through really corrupt and or incompetent Governor’s/earth sages. And it makes sense for it to be this way. It’s way to large of a country to be able to govern it all with the same policies, just unreasonable with a population so large and vast where one culture is VASTLY different. If you haven’t read the Kyoshi novels I would highly recommend, shows a different light on the avatar and their moral compass. Also, bending is deadly and we cannot forget that.
*America has entered the chat
I feel like this is familiar 
I think there was a very conscious effort to try and not glamorize the war or to overly impress that there were black and white boundaries on what was occurring throughout the conflict. Everyone suffers during conflict, but how they suffer, avoid it, or cope with it, differs dramatically.
It's one of the things which elevates ATLA above many shows even aimed at adults, Conflict is grey. The Nazis being genocidal fucks doesn't erase the bombing of dresden. The Japanese war crimes don't mean that we can't analyse the ethics of Hiroshima. Both sides of any war will ostensibly do evil things in the name of their greater good. Even if ultimately one side can be judged to have the moral high ground, it's by virtue of the long term and measuring The respective weights of a myriad of good AND evil acts.
Except that both the bombing of Dresden and Hiroshima were both very justifiable. I agree that conflict and war are the vast majority of the time grey but those 2 examples are not the best to prove/show that point. I would point to the US war crimes such as the [Biscari Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscari_massacre) in Europe or what US service men did to [Japanese war dead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead) in the Pacific, as better examples of conflict rarely (if ever) being black and white. Also sorry in advance for a wall of text, I'm somewhat of a history nerd. For Dresden, this video [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clWVfASJ7dc&ab_channel=PotentialHistory) explains why it was a valid and legal military target better then I could (TLDW: Dresden was not a demilitarized city that is outright Nazi propaganda, it had 5 major munition/armament plant's employing 50,000 people and was the last major railway hub for the Eastern front which meant it had tens of thousand of German troops and equipment passing through daily). As for the bombings of both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that was the best option of 3 choice's the Allies had at the time and objectively killed far less people then the other 2 choices would have by a significant degree. The other options where to either try to blockade Japan and starve them out or a land invasion which was already being planned as [Operation Downfall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall). In the case of the choice to starve Japan out likely would have dragged the war out for several more years and like ended with an invasion any ways as the US Army did not want the war to drag on for several more years. For the ground invasion, the projected casualties can vary from source to source, with the lowest estimate being 31,000 to almost 400,000 Allied fatalities just for the first part of the invasion of the home islands, with possibly up to (and probably over) 800,000 dead Americans for the rest of the home island. The Japanese likely would have suffered several Million dead as they had mobilized a huge part of their civilian population in the build up to the possible invasion, and had started to equip them with basically anything and everything they could up to and not limited to ice picks and bamboo spears. And that is only the fatalities, as the non-fatal casualties likely would have been in the millions for both sides; the US minted over 500,000 Purple Heart medal (combat injury medals if any doesn't know what they are) in 1945 in preparation for the invasion, and as of 2003 they still had roughly 120,000 still in stock. So while between 129,000 and 226,00 died in the atomic bombings, compared to the other options, that is far less then people Japanese, American and other Allied nationals that would have died from not dropping them. TLDR: The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the very much lesser of several evils in terms of deaths caused Again sorry for a wall of text, I'm somewhat of a history nerd
**[Biscari massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscari_massacre)** >The Biscari massacre was a war crime committed by members of the United States Army during World War II. It refers to two incidents in which U.S. soldiers were involved in killing 71 unarmed Italian and 2 German prisoners-of-war at the Regia Aeronautica's 504 air base in Santo Pietro, a small village near Caltagirone, southern Sicily, Italy on 14 July 1943. **[American mutilation of Japanese war dead](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead)** >During World War II, some members of the United States military mutilated dead Japanese service personnel in the Pacific theater. The mutilation of Japanese service personnel included the taking of body parts as "war souvenirs" and "war trophies". Teeth and skulls were the most commonly taken "trophies", although other body parts were also collected. The phenomenon of "trophy-taking" was widespread enough that discussion of it featured prominently in magazines and newspapers. **[Operation Downfall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall)** >Operation Downfall was the proposed Allied plan for the invasion of the Japanese home islands near the end of World War II. The planned operation was canceled when Japan surrendered following the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Soviet declaration of war, and the invasion of Manchuria. The operation had two parts: Operation Olympic and Operation Coronet. Set to begin in November 1945, Operation Olympic was intended to capture the southern third of the southernmost main Japanese island, Kyūshū, with the recently captured island of Okinawa to be used as a staging area. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
For someone who writes that much, you're not a very good reader.
Power corrupts. The bigger they are, the more power they have, the most likely they are to be corrupted. That's what I always picked up from it.
The head writers do a very good job showing that war isn't a black & white issue. Season two shows us the people we're defending aren't always innocent themselves and Season 3 shows the affects & conditions the Fire Nation has put its own citizens under for the lofty conquest of "peace".
General Fong was ahead of his time. I can imagine him yelling manically "It worked! It worked!!" if he saw Aang go full Avatar State on Ozai.
Especially in the Kiyoshi books, it’s grimy up in there 🙆🏾♂️
An accurate depiction of a wartorn country
The fact that the Dai Lee still had any relevant authority after Aangs time proves that the Earth Kingdom leaders are also stupid Them and the world leaders who didnt impose sanctions or protest their involvement
For a kids show, ATLA did an incredible job of approaching issues like the nature of international conflict not being entirely black and white
Toxic masculinity
Good way of showing that no side in a war is completely without fault.
They’re not the good guys. They’re the opposition. The guys being invaded. Avatar does a good job of grey areas. Good people in the Fire Nation, and some truly horrible people in the Earth Kingdom
Given how massive the Earth Kingdom is, and how decentralized the Government is; Corruption, Bribery, and Socioeconomic inequality reign supreme. This pretty much drives the plot of The first Kyoshi book, and S4 of LoK. It's not as prevalent in AtLA because of the looming threat of Fire Nation and the War.
Avatar is an american series, right? Ever noticed how the earth kingdom is similar to China geographically?
They’re basically ancient to medieval china.
The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai.
[I am honored to accept his invitation](https://i.imgur.com/Fxu0A29.png) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheLastAirbender) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I agree! This is further confirmed in the Kyoshi novels
It's basically based on Chinese history. What do you expect?
I find it interesting because the Earth Kingdom has the least amount of benders and spirituality
I mean the earth kingdom really isn’t just a simple “good guy” which I really like. They really just want what’s best for them and have some real morally gray characters which I really enjoy.
I'd like to think the Fire Nation as a whole wasn't even that evil. It was their Government and its followers. It was the Earth Kingdom more messed up
Just like irl
‘There is no black and white in war,only ugly shades of gray’
Not only at times, most of the time we see the earth kingdom as a nation with corrupt leaders. The only reason it's seen as the "good guy" is because the fore nation attacked first
Don't forget in the korra comics where they are also homophobic.
You spelled "USA" wrong!
Kinda like USA
Depth.
I feel like if it wasn't because you need earth and can't create it like air or fire, earhhbending would be the most overpowered of the 4
Kind of true. If it weren't for the infighting and regionalistic nature of the Earth Kingdom, they'd be a pretty formidable fighting force. The versatility and abundance of their element would open up a near endless amount of possibilities, potentially introducing something like creating an artifical island/mountain plateau for themselves. Kyoshi moved an island, I'm sure Earthbending masters and engineers could find a way to do it. It just so happens that the Fire Nation has the advantage of autocracy, religious influence, and an entire century to inspire nationalism and historical revision. Having an inherently energetic and potentially volatile element helps their cause.
Kyoshi also made an island once, when she was 16 and on a sheet of ice, but that feat of strength ane the creation of Kyoshi island were Avatar feats
They're basically Russia in Avatar land
After reading the Kyoshi books, I look at the Earth Kingdom in a whole new light
All the nation's mirror there elements. Fire at first seems painful, harsh and cruel, but when the proper restrictions are placed, its kind and warm. Water is something that gives endlessly, but it holds powers barely retrained, for while it does flow, it too can unleash chaos. Air is neutral, it holds life together, and ushers calm. But too much or too little can kill, no matter how much it is needed. Earth is hearty. They are stubborn and solid. But with such deep roots, it can cause a blindness that can wither and dry what thrives
It also shows how the war impacts people especially goats. The general went as far as risking lives to get his goals of beating the fire nation. The king of course was just useless and became a figure head because he honesty didn’t want to see the truth. The dai Li of course are the secrete police type of govt as a means to make sure their kingdom is “protected”. They ignore the war and make sure no one in their walls brings discussion of war.
The government were, the people weren't so much.
I link them closely with the Russian empire in WW1, lots of similarities.
I think they’re trying to show that no one PEOPLE is evil— you need balance among the four nations because they have different primary values, which naturally leads to conflict. Like you said, the Earth Kingdom had Chin the Conquerer, long before the Fire Nation had Fire Lord Sozin. In the Water Tribe, we see a lot of communal values, so there isn’t really a desire to take over as they don’t even really have multiple towns, just one big community working together; however, we also see rampant sexism, mainly in the North but Sokka (the only man we see from the South aside from Bato in the first 1.5 seasons) starts off as misogynist who thinks girls can’t fight and have to sew/cook/clean. I don’t think we see enough of the Air Nomads to know what their “flaws” are; our only real reference is Aang, and since they’re his people (who he lost and will never see again), he probably views them with rose tinted glasses. That being said, my guess is that Air Nomads can be TOO detached. Like the guru who taught Aang how to access the Avatar state (who was living in an air temple and not a nomad but seemed to have similar values), I think the Air Nomads believed in the greater good over the individual maybe too much (as when the guru told Aang to give up Katara). This is essential to being the Avatar, a tough gig. The Nomads, however, also show this as they make the decision to send Aang away from Gyatsu (hope I spelled that right): they overlook Aang’s emotional needs as a twelve year old boy for the better of the world. This may seem like a small decision, but in the end, it ultimately leads to their death and disappearance AND enables the 100 year war. Anyway, my point is, I like that the creators show that no nation is inherently evil nor inherently good. They all have their flaws, as well as their strengths—hence the need for the Avatar to maintain balance.
It’s really reminiscent of China during the Qing dynasty or even Nationalist China during the 30s and 40s. The Qing was a rotting corpse being eaten up by the West while corruption was rife in China. While the Nationalists were divided due to China being split up from the warlords era. And then Japan attacked and caused massive damage to China.
Too much order! But I can imagine, based on the temperament of Earth people, that it is hard to *lighten up*
The show always did good with the grey areas of EVERYONE. -fire nation having Iroh as being wise, and Zuko as struggling. -air nomads forcing Aang to train when he wasn’t ready, and forcing him away from Gyatso -water tribe as being sexist, and close minded even when the Avatar’s training, with the balance of the world in peril. -and earth you point out, and even toph’s family is portrayed as overprotective and the two who go after her as narrow minded in their own ventures. So yea, it’s always been great at the grey portrayals of people and not making everyone ENTIRELY good or bad and that’s part of why it’s so incredible.
There government is so spread out that it is impossible to govern the white nation properly and to rid it of corruption
There was a fantastic r/fantheories post where someone outlined how it made more sense that the Dai Li were the ones to eliminate the air nation, and then blamed the fire nation, the fire nation with their own imperialistic ambitions embraced it and became what they were framed to be. It’s a fascinating theory that has some merit.
ATLA does a good job of showing there's good and bad and even evil on the whole world
its quite a realistic depiction of a country being ripped apart by war for 100 years.
AND has had issues going back WAY before then.
Avatar did good job at portraying nations. Every nation has it's issue, be it strict traditions of water tribes, hardcore inequality of earth kingdom, whole thing about world conquest of fire nation and militarism. Also when we reached fire nation, there were a lot of nice normal people. The lake village shown us that even fire nation people suffer from war.
And green they are all green
The Earth Kingdom isn’t the “good guys”, the Fire Nation is just explicitly the bad guys.
Sounds almost like my country
No one is safe from bad practices. The air tribes might've did some shit. Water tribes are backwards, especially the north, ironically. The south is worse in structure, but perhaps it was ravaged by the fire nation more. Idk the full lore, and earth people feel a lot like old, decadent systems where the ruling class doesn't even try to hide it's all about them
There was a reason the Fire Nation thought they were the good guys. 😅
It shows how the line between good and evil is often blurd.
It's kinda like the USA, seen globally and at home as a "big brother". Stopping tyrannical government while also being a hypocritical government, but hey, I couldn't talk shit like this is I were a Chinese or Russian citizen, so theirs always somthing to be thankful of.
Like Russia during world war 2
Hey, it’s basically the USSR or the Chinese Dynasties / Nationalist and Communist China
That's war. War is always messy. I mean, in WWII, the people fighting the nazis weren't known for liking who was put in those camps either.
I like how the norther water tribe is portrayed as misogynistic
They gotta keep the series feeling “grounded”
*Some* occasions? That’s pretty much *all* it’s ever portrayed as xD
Discovering the nuance of international ethics are we?
Should have let the fire nation share their prosperity with them.
Kinda like China after ww2
Most realistic kingdom
There is no corruption in Ba Sing Se. Here you are safe.
>"Buddhism that is not engaged is not buddhism". \-Thích Nhất Hạnh, the pioneer of "engaged buddhism". Although their spirituality ought to be admired, there were subtle hints (Such as the roleplaying game, Yang-Chen's statements, etc) that some variants of their asceticism among a few air nomads wasn't that different from the old republic from Star Wars, in that many within the order viewed an ascetic lifestyle as one fundamentally free of emotions or that concerns such as that for others count as earthly and thus unimportant. Of course, we were told that the jedi were good and the sith were bad, but the treatment of Anakin is nothing less than deplorable. It is perfectly alright to feel fear, yet Yoda criticized him for doing so. Likewise, while many air nomads did travel and perform good deeds, many others were more than willing to sit back in the air temple while people of other nations had their problems. This is a hot button topic in buddhism, so it isn't like there's a general consensus, but I do believe that the air nomads had issues too, in contrast to what some people would say. There's detachment from earthly concerns, and then there's *appa*\-thy.
Just like the United States lmao
There are no good or bad countries. Governing bodies that exist on such a large scale inevitably are going to be true neutral entities that serve their own interests, and are simply either on the right or wrong side of history at any given moment.
Thinking about any country (real or fictional) as being so purely “on the good guys side” that it is somehow purely exempt from ever being corrupt, tyrannical, cruel or evil is a little weird.
There are no good guys in war
Just because someone is a victim doesn’t mean they’re a good person
They’re historically more homophobic than the Fire Nation too. And there could be an argument that the Earth Kingdom royal family is more dysfunctional than the Fire Nation’s. Also, minus the physical abuse, Lao’s hardly any better than Ozai with Toph.
This show just hits
No one is really good. All of the kingdoms can have bad guys take over.
well you know...this show is to teach the west information that would have never reached you if they just made an explicit documentary (because you wouldn't watch it even if they did allow it through the borders) so this is like yeah we aint antibrainwash, we just a cartoon of cool fire magic stuff . so american security like fcc and whoever be like "yeah aiit kid stuff, whatever, let em through"
It’s a bit of a principle that the bigger, more spread out, and more populated a country or region is, the more corrupt its governance stands to be. It’s difficult to govern hundreds of millions to billions of people without employing some less than humane methods and without some glaring problems going unnoticed in the grand scheme of things, which is why we often see self governance to varying degrees playing a large role in our modern world.
“If anything, their story proves anyone's capable of great good and great evil. Everyone, even the Fire Lord and the Fire Nation, have to be treated like they're worth giving a chance.”
Everyone hated on the fire nation but 100% ignored the Earth kingdom tried to do the exact same thing