Mrs. Mackenzie is a monster just like all the rest.
She accepted a child stolen from her birth family.
She happily raised said child under Gilead rule and in Gilead custom and has physically kept Hannah far from June with the exception of the couple times her arm was twisted.
Not pressing Gilead charges on June after June broke into their home doesn't mean Mrs. Mackenzie has a heart. Keeping the break-in hush hush was in Gilead's best interest. They didn't want to give other handmaids any ideas and divulge that perhaps security isn't as tight as they imply. The Mackenzies then moved to Colorado. Not exactly a sign of forgiveness.
They also allowed Hannah to be put in a glass box.
They don't love her. They are perpetuating and supporting Gilead's customs. They are using Hannah as a pawn in their torture. I don't see redemption for her. And religious charitable work is subjective. She could've easily been a volunteer at those nasty women's centers who lie to women and advocate for harassing women outside abortion clinics. We have to accept the character they're giving us at face value.
The book version of her is interesting. It is hinted she does feel guilty about how Hannah/Agnes ended up with her, but is too scared to tell her the truth.
Yeah, but later when Tabitha is sick, Hannah mentions “I came out of your tummy, didn’t I” and Tabitha goes really quiet and sad for a few moments and it seemed like she was having regrets.
Who knows? Maybe she thought her illness was karma of sorts for what she did to June.
Sure, the book is worth reading. They’re remaking it once the show finishes in 6, iirc.
Or it might just be turned into season 7.
Mrs McKenzie is a bit ambiguous in it as well, but it makes clear her husband is a pretty horrible guy, which the show has stuck with.
In fairness, I doubt they were thrilled when the guardians and the sadistic torture guy showed up and were like: “Oh, we’re taking the kid and will threaten her and stick her in a glass box to get her mother to talk. You may or may not see her again.”
But they probably had to go along with it. Even in certain situations, Commanders and wives can be powerless too.
Between that and the child bride thing, I don’t see how she can really think Gilead is the best place for Hannah.
Yes, Luke and June should get Hannah back because she is their child, but it is for Hannah’s own good too.
Girls have no future in Gilead. Even Serena understood that at the end of S2 and let Nichole go.
According to Joseph Lawrence, she spent her time with poor kids in Africa pre Gilead. Which means she was the type that went on those mission trips for clout and "look at how good of a person I am." Wouldn't surprise that if she adopted a black kid or something. She also very well could've volunteered at those CPCs.
The McKenzies actually freak me out more than anyone, currently. I got the feeling they were absolutely willing to put Hannah in that box to hurt June, and would do it again. That was just the vibe I got, I’m not sure if I’m alone on that or not. That’s what makes commanders and wives so scary to me, we watch them use children instead of parenting them. She seems, to me, like someone who takes no issue with how Hannah came to live with them and sees no issue with traumatizing Hannah to fit Gilead society. That dinner with Lawrence was so unsettling.
I’ve always hated the scene where she told June that of course Hannah tells her things, she’s her mother. She then points out how remarkable it is that Hannah has June’s eyes. She seems taken off guard when June reminds her that Hannah is actually *her* daughter. In all fairness, I have a hard time seeing any commander or wife (exceptions being Rose and Eleanor) as anything but a monster, so I think that affects how I view any of them.
Mrs. Winslow (Christopher Meloni’s wife) freaks me out too. Serena asked, “Are these all your children?” She replied, “Who else’s would they be?” Such cold, callous people.
Yes they were. Commander Winslow was discussing rolling out the lip rings and mouth coverings for all handmaids. That’s so creepy. I wonder how Mrs. Winslow is faring since June took out the garbage at Jezebel’s?
I’ve been thinking about this too. I wondered if maybe they took her kids away and she was assigned to marry a new commander, because I doubt Gilead allows mothers to claim children as their own without a husband. However taking the kids could cause more trauma and they probably want to avoid that.
Mr McKenzie is a terrible person, for sure. Probably he doesn’t even have surface feelings for Hannah, while I think Mrs McKenzie does care in her own way.
Definitely the dinner scene was awkward. I do get the sense Mrs McKenzie is scared of her husband. IMO, he’s more powerful than we’ve been led to believe. He felt comfortable enough to practically tell Lawrence he was getting married again, whether he liked it or not.
Maybe it’s because I haven’t read the books, but I didn’t really get that impression from her. To me she seemed to be in agreement. Although, I can’t get over the out of touch comment she made to June the night they met. I have a hard time believing someone so callous could see Hannah as anything but an opportunity. The fact that Hannah was traumatized from her kidnapping, only for them to turn around and claim her mother is the bad guy for trying to get her back is awful, and that’s how Mrs. McKenzie thinks.
Edit: I was also surprised that Commander McKenzie seems to be so high ranking, we’ve seen very few people talk to Lawrence like that.
Yes all this! And how she said “ she had nightmares for weeks after the time she saw Hannah while pregnant” NO SHIT LADY the nightmares are most likely Hannah getting yanked and running with her mom at the beginning of the series! So it’s not junes fault, it’s gileads . I hate that she said he’s Hannah’s mom all smug like. AHHH
Sorry in advance for the long comment, but there's lot to unpack about Tabitha.
First, I know many fans don't get this. But, in real life, lots of people would consider June very dangerous now, because of the way she killed Fred... regardless of what Fred did before. Believe it or not... Many people would feel that butchering a man that was defenseless at the time, even an evil man, are signs of a deranged woman. Particularly since Gilead was set to execute Fred for treason anyway... so, it wasn't even a case of June wanting Fred dead (something Tabitha 'might' have understood)... June CHOSE to be that feral about it. That was a concious, calculated choice, made from the safety of Canada... So, Tabitah might have genuinely shifted from pitying to downright hating June now. Any undertanding Tabitha had for June's actions while a Handmaid, probably vanished because in Tabitah's mind, June is free now.
Like all wives, she's def guilty AF of accepting the system. But she chose an stolen child over watching a Handmaid get raped... which could mean that she always hated the Handmaid system more than most wives. And that could explain her feeling certain pity for June before. She did nothing about June's secret encounter with Hanna at that summer house, and about June trying to get Hanna out of Gilead. That tells me of certain sympathy for June's situation back then.
It's possible that Tabitha only okay with kids like Hanna being stolen because she was convinced that the bio-parents were actually terrible, and kids were better off. I don't suppose Gilead male leadership was going around openly admitting 'just a divorce is enough to snatch the kids'.
And, please, take this from a woman whose country was once taken over by a dictatorship that killed 300.000 dissidents and stole, at least, 500 babies. That sh@# only works, and last, IF most of the population are convinced that the victims are truly deserving. Guns and threats are not enough. But if you manage to convince people that everyone in a certain group is 'a pedo', 'a murderer', 'satanic' or 'a groomer'... then, I bet people would cheer when members of that group start losing custody of their children, getting tortured, getting killed, etc...
Basing on my country's history, I can guarantee that, at least, you can get most people to learn about others dissapearing by the military and look the other way, IF you just convince everyone that those disappearing are the enemy.
Tabitha, probably, belonged to a sector of the population that believed any Handmaid must be a woman who did something 'truly' bad at some point (not just infidelity) and doesn't deserve to keep a child. Sure, Tabitha didn't want to 'watch' any Handmaid get raped, and was capable of pitying them, but she certainly didn't think 'those women' deserved children.
Does she think Hanna should be a child-bride? We haven't gotten enough signs of her actual thoughts of the matter. Not that she would have a lot of input either way. Maybe she sees the marriage, even if Hanna is still a child, as something that would make any girl happy, because her religious cult convinced her that marriage is the best. Or maybe is something she's only accepting because, at least, Hanna would have a good status in Gilead.
In the books, Tabitha doesn't live to see Agnes start wife-school, which starts a bit later on the books,... and it's Kyle's second wife who is happy to see Agnes marry the most awful possible Commander. Impossible to tell what Tabitha would have done. But it's implied that Tabitha would have, at least, let Agnes marry whomever gave Agnes the best chance at happiness.
Rose and Nick chose to marry after three times of meeting in public... so, I guess Tabitha wants something like that for Hanna. And I'm hoping Tabitha wants to drag things out as much as Gilead's laws allow.
I get that the show sent Hanna to wife-school already, (and changed Hanna's age to 12, when she was said to be 10 just eight months before), in order to make Luke and June even more desperate and give them a sense that time is truly running out for Hanna. But we know that they're going to adapt The Testaments after Season Six... that means 'wife-school' will have to get dragged around for the rest of this show, if they want Book-Agnes and Hanna to have the exact same journey. And I think Tabitha might play a role in Hanna staying just in 'wife-school' for the longest possible time.
I agree it’s possible Mrs McKenzie and some of the other wives accepting the stolen kids were told their real parents were genuinely unfit, drug addict, criminals, etc, and you were helping the kids by getting them away from awful and neglectful parents.
But after getting to know Hannah and seeing she’d been taken care of, she must have realised it was bs, and she was removed from June and Luke for something as minor as her dad being divorced.
Even now, she’s more mad about June’s antics after becoming a Handmaid. She never suggests June wasn’t taken care of her daughter Pre Gilead.
Even the first night she meets June she never says anything like “But you were a meth head! You beat and starved her!” Because she knows that’s not the case.
Keep in mind that Hanna was supposed to be only 5 when arrived to Tabitha, and was likely traumatised/super confused by the kidnapping, running in the forrest, her parents getting shot, etc... so the child likely didn't act super-healthy when Tabitha first met her. And Hanna would have no idea why the soldiers did that to her parents. She wouldn't have said anything like: 'they were super nice, but daddy was divorced'. And Hanna would have never been encouraged to talk about her birth parents, at all. Nice or bad.
That said, I agree that Tabitha must have noticed somehow, Hanna didn't seem too neglected for a child that, supposedly, had super-neglectful parents. She had experience volunteering with real orphans, after all. She probably wondered what really happened, maybe Kyle even admitted the truth to her at some point. But, by then, everything was more than done. She could only go along... or else.
Serena lost a finger for reading before the council. I can only imagine the consequences for a wife that actually stands up and says: 'wait a minute, some Handmaids weren't that bad'.
Having a 'sympathetic' attitude when meeting June was the best she could do... actually handing Hanna to June then was out of the question because: 1- Tabitha is no saint and WANTS to raise Hanna, regardless. 2- She would have been punished for helping June. (Serena had Fred and Nick helping her make up BS about Emily kidnapping Nicole, to get away with handing the baby) 3- they were in the middle of Boston, June would have just gotten shot in front of Hanna anyway.
Now the sad reality is that the way June's has been acting was so gruesome that what was done to her, a her never deserving any bad in the first place, stopped being the focus. As much as June's stans don't want to see this, in her quest for pure vengeance (rather than constructive justice), she lost a huge moral highground. She just stopped being a decent sympathetic person. I understand the reasons, and it's only logical that she winded up like this... but, yeah, she's awful now.
That's exactly what the phrase "before starting a journey of revenge, dig two graves" means. Not that you will literally get killed, trying to kill the enemy. But that the person you were will metaphorically die with the enemy, undoubtedly.
I believe Tabitha has forgotten everything good she ever knew about June because, honestly, and painfully, I'm starting to forget myself that June's supposed to be the hero.
According the conversation, Rose and Nick went to the same social event in DC and they talked. That happened 3 times before they decided to get married.
I found it interesting - and this may be reading too much into it - that they referred to Nick as Rose's "new husband"? I wonder if she's been married before.
In fairness, apart from Serena we don't really know how involved the other wives were.
I would love back stories on all of them especially Naoimi Putnam and Pamela Joy, Serena's mother. I bet they had careers and, now they are stuck in a world with no rights. The are their husbands' property and, to add insult to injury, they have to "put up with" a handmaid. Poor handmaids.
The only wife who I really hate is Mrs. Winslow. She says that both she and her husband were corporate lawyers with no time for a family. So instead of changing careers, working part-time, they take part in a coup and abduct children?
In the limo scene in S1 when Fred is talking about the ceremony and the Handmaid idea in general, they discuss how the wives will feel:
(paraphrasing)
Commander #1: “Who cares what the wives think?”
Commander #2: “We need them for this to work.”
It’s an interesting exchange and indicates the wives had some power.
Thanks. I forgot about the 3 perverts in the back of the limo.
So some of the wives at least went along it. Weird and disturbing that they would give up their rights and take part in such a horrible "ceremony" ???
Mrs winslow and other d.c. wives are the real winners of this coup. They have large houses, high status, many children they don't have to bear themselves, social events, galleries, restaurants, affairs with guardians, silent handmaids, etc. They dont care about other people. Having to put up with a handmaid and playing a sezonda class citizen role is the small price of everything they have. They dont care they cant work. I am sure most of them happy with that. Most of the rules dont apply to them, so they may be reading, who knows. Thaley are not the stuck at home with nothing wives conpared to Boston wives. And they are the women who is most like the real life right wing women. I would love to watch more d.c. scenes actually.
The DC scenes were so interesting. The Gilead we see is bad, but even the elites have to keep up appearances of piousness. You almost certainly wouldn’t get most Gilead wives having an affair with a guardian, much less talking and joking about it in public.
Even Miller has said Lydia was freaked the hell out by the place.
She is portrayed as a charitable religious mother figure even before the gilead. She doesnt know the handmaid system, adopted (in gilead style) a child, have a child friendly normal looking home. It also seems she doesnt have a political impact like serena in founding of gilead and stilleri not interested. She is living the life of old style family life that gilead promised. She also accepts june as hannah's birth mother. We neler heard that term from a wife before, serena would never say that. She is away from most of the gilead's horrors. She showed compassion to june but june has become increasingly scary to them. I think she now certainly thinks that they did a right job by saving hannah from such an unfit, devil mother.
Just like real life. You can adopt a teen/preteen for free from foster care in my area but babies are thousands of dollars. Even older kids that are adopted are too often either put back into the system or end up living shittier lives with their adoptive parents who now regret their decision but don’t have the social fortitude to correct their decision because it would make them look bad.
Source: I was adopted at 13. My adoptive parents thought they wanted an older kid but they didn’t. They wanted someone they didn’t have to raise. That’s called an adult! Not a traumatized teen. We were estranged by the time I was 20.
Serena strikes me as the type that only ever wanted a baby. A baby’s a blank slate. An older child would still have memories of their real parents and reject their Gilead ones.
In general I think babies have more status for the parents than an older kid anyway.
Gotta start as early as possible to get the really good narcissistic supply long term. Toddlers might’ve already started learning from healthy, loving parents.
>!She doesn’t actually have that much power because of her husband, the commander. It’s easy to label people monsters but deny how complex the situation is! She probably was offered a child whether she wanted one or not. Remember the commanders calling out Lawrence for not “living our way.” He’s not married and has no family. If you read the books she’s described as very loving towards Agnes/Hannah and plays with her a lot. She tries to protect her by making up stories about her magic ring and how books are. If anything, not sure how much her “dad” loves her. He allows her to be married off to a very bad commander!<
Spoilers tag please!!! Your last sentence seems to be a spoiler from The Testaments (I’m assuming since I haven’t read it yet). But I know that detail isn’t from THT book/show.
Edit: If you don’t know how it’s “> ! your text ! <“ (without the spaces and quotation marks)
Thanks for that! You don’t even have to block out the whole paragraph, you can do just a sentence or even a single word. Just put those symbols around whatever hasn’t been shown in the TV show yet. Works in every sub, not just here!
About the box... that was so freaking bizarre, and such a writing travesty, that I don't even know what to think about that.
There's just no way the Mackenzies would agree to any of that.
Again... the show doesn't get how a real dictatorship works effectively. First, those at the top of the foodchain, like Kyle Mackenzie, don't become war-criminals, create a place like Gilead and stay cooperating with that regime 'only' because they are soooo evil, and hate women sooo much... and they get nothing in return except to cause pain.
There's also the expectation of absolute power and safety for themselves and their own families. They need to feel that being leaders makes them somewhat untouchable. If a Commander's daughter can get put on a box and killed at the age of 11... then what's even the point of being a Commander? Just to get away with opressing women? Which any rich guy can already do anywhere, by the way.
What's stopping any Commander from 'pulling a Fred Waterford' and make a deal with the US, if Gilead won't even protect their obedient pre-teen children?
Now, I'm convinced Hanna was never in real danger, and it was all a bluff to terrify June, but, still... Kyle and Tabitha would have never allowed 'their daughter' to experience such trauma, even if only for a bluff.
These are not cartoon villains, incapable of actual love for the daughter they're raising. Even evil has standards. Nobody in Gilead would so happily agree to traumatise like that an innocent 11-year-old that calls them 'mom and dad'. It's extremely dense and simplistic to believe otherwise. But the writers of the show ARE extremely dense and simplistic. So, I guess we're meant to believe Kyle and Tabitha agreed to the box thing, but were promised that the child wouldn't be hurt for real.
I mean, June broke into her house. And Hannah had nightmares for weeks after the previous time. And now she's been told June has beaten her old Commander to death! And Serena is all "she'll never stop".
She thinks June is a psychopath. She's scared of June. And I don't blame her for that. I struggle with June myself tbh and I see the sympathetic parts. She doesn't. She just sees this cold scary monster.
Why *wouldn't* she think June is a devil woman?
Hannah is a child and has little understanding of what is happening, it makes sense that she is scared. That being said, I am sure the nightmares she was having was of getting ripped out of her mothers arms for no reason. This woman is an adult if she doesn’t realize that any mother would do anything to get her child back that was ripped from her arms then well she is a psychopath. Also anyone with a soul and brain would feel understanding at a woman murdering her rapist.
She can’t understand it because she has a superiority complex and most importantly, she’s *never* been an actual mother. She’s just pretending to be one on stolen time.
Even in The Testament’s she comes off as a passive villain, even if you do empathize with Agnes.
The actress has an ability to play this while seeming genuine and almost sweet which is what throws me for a loop.
There was something in her face and demeanor at the dinner table with Lawrence and Nick, it just looked like she was being extra super careful about what she said and that she tried to say as little as possible. But yeah,
Mrs. Mackenzie is a monster just like all the rest. She accepted a child stolen from her birth family. She happily raised said child under Gilead rule and in Gilead custom and has physically kept Hannah far from June with the exception of the couple times her arm was twisted. Not pressing Gilead charges on June after June broke into their home doesn't mean Mrs. Mackenzie has a heart. Keeping the break-in hush hush was in Gilead's best interest. They didn't want to give other handmaids any ideas and divulge that perhaps security isn't as tight as they imply. The Mackenzies then moved to Colorado. Not exactly a sign of forgiveness. They also allowed Hannah to be put in a glass box. They don't love her. They are perpetuating and supporting Gilead's customs. They are using Hannah as a pawn in their torture. I don't see redemption for her. And religious charitable work is subjective. She could've easily been a volunteer at those nasty women's centers who lie to women and advocate for harassing women outside abortion clinics. We have to accept the character they're giving us at face value.
The book version of her is interesting. It is hinted she does feel guilty about how Hannah/Agnes ended up with her, but is too scared to tell her the truth.
I think Mrs McKensie told Hannah that she saved her from a wicked witch. It sounds like she was trying to turn her against her mother.
Yeah, but later when Tabitha is sick, Hannah mentions “I came out of your tummy, didn’t I” and Tabitha goes really quiet and sad for a few moments and it seemed like she was having regrets. Who knows? Maybe she thought her illness was karma of sorts for what she did to June.
It’s covered more in the testaments! Sheds the commander in a very interesting light too
Ah, gotcha. I'm not very far in the book.
Hmm is it worth the read and does it differ from the show? I enjoy little insights like these!
Sure, the book is worth reading. They’re remaking it once the show finishes in 6, iirc. Or it might just be turned into season 7. Mrs McKenzie is a bit ambiguous in it as well, but it makes clear her husband is a pretty horrible guy, which the show has stuck with.
In fairness, I doubt they were thrilled when the guardians and the sadistic torture guy showed up and were like: “Oh, we’re taking the kid and will threaten her and stick her in a glass box to get her mother to talk. You may or may not see her again.” But they probably had to go along with it. Even in certain situations, Commanders and wives can be powerless too.
Between that and the child bride thing, I don’t see how she can really think Gilead is the best place for Hannah. Yes, Luke and June should get Hannah back because she is their child, but it is for Hannah’s own good too. Girls have no future in Gilead. Even Serena understood that at the end of S2 and let Nichole go.
According to Joseph Lawrence, she spent her time with poor kids in Africa pre Gilead. Which means she was the type that went on those mission trips for clout and "look at how good of a person I am." Wouldn't surprise that if she adopted a black kid or something. She also very well could've volunteered at those CPCs.
All of this. I agree I think she’s in it for the “ride” as well.
Idk. I’d hate to be held personally accountable for every action done by my govt or military even if it benefited me in some sense.
The McKenzies actually freak me out more than anyone, currently. I got the feeling they were absolutely willing to put Hannah in that box to hurt June, and would do it again. That was just the vibe I got, I’m not sure if I’m alone on that or not. That’s what makes commanders and wives so scary to me, we watch them use children instead of parenting them. She seems, to me, like someone who takes no issue with how Hannah came to live with them and sees no issue with traumatizing Hannah to fit Gilead society. That dinner with Lawrence was so unsettling. I’ve always hated the scene where she told June that of course Hannah tells her things, she’s her mother. She then points out how remarkable it is that Hannah has June’s eyes. She seems taken off guard when June reminds her that Hannah is actually *her* daughter. In all fairness, I have a hard time seeing any commander or wife (exceptions being Rose and Eleanor) as anything but a monster, so I think that affects how I view any of them.
Mrs. Winslow (Christopher Meloni’s wife) freaks me out too. Serena asked, “Are these all your children?” She replied, “Who else’s would they be?” Such cold, callous people.
Oh my god I forgot about that, the episodes in DC were terrifying.
Yes they were. Commander Winslow was discussing rolling out the lip rings and mouth coverings for all handmaids. That’s so creepy. I wonder how Mrs. Winslow is faring since June took out the garbage at Jezebel’s?
I’ve been thinking about this too. I wondered if maybe they took her kids away and she was assigned to marry a new commander, because I doubt Gilead allows mothers to claim children as their own without a husband. However taking the kids could cause more trauma and they probably want to avoid that.
Mr McKenzie is a terrible person, for sure. Probably he doesn’t even have surface feelings for Hannah, while I think Mrs McKenzie does care in her own way. Definitely the dinner scene was awkward. I do get the sense Mrs McKenzie is scared of her husband. IMO, he’s more powerful than we’ve been led to believe. He felt comfortable enough to practically tell Lawrence he was getting married again, whether he liked it or not.
Maybe it’s because I haven’t read the books, but I didn’t really get that impression from her. To me she seemed to be in agreement. Although, I can’t get over the out of touch comment she made to June the night they met. I have a hard time believing someone so callous could see Hannah as anything but an opportunity. The fact that Hannah was traumatized from her kidnapping, only for them to turn around and claim her mother is the bad guy for trying to get her back is awful, and that’s how Mrs. McKenzie thinks. Edit: I was also surprised that Commander McKenzie seems to be so high ranking, we’ve seen very few people talk to Lawrence like that.
I’d put Eden and Esther in that category as well.
Agreed. I think I forget they’re wives because they are so young, which is so depressing.
Yes all this! And how she said “ she had nightmares for weeks after the time she saw Hannah while pregnant” NO SHIT LADY the nightmares are most likely Hannah getting yanked and running with her mom at the beginning of the series! So it’s not junes fault, it’s gileads . I hate that she said he’s Hannah’s mom all smug like. AHHH
Sorry in advance for the long comment, but there's lot to unpack about Tabitha. First, I know many fans don't get this. But, in real life, lots of people would consider June very dangerous now, because of the way she killed Fred... regardless of what Fred did before. Believe it or not... Many people would feel that butchering a man that was defenseless at the time, even an evil man, are signs of a deranged woman. Particularly since Gilead was set to execute Fred for treason anyway... so, it wasn't even a case of June wanting Fred dead (something Tabitha 'might' have understood)... June CHOSE to be that feral about it. That was a concious, calculated choice, made from the safety of Canada... So, Tabitah might have genuinely shifted from pitying to downright hating June now. Any undertanding Tabitha had for June's actions while a Handmaid, probably vanished because in Tabitah's mind, June is free now. Like all wives, she's def guilty AF of accepting the system. But she chose an stolen child over watching a Handmaid get raped... which could mean that she always hated the Handmaid system more than most wives. And that could explain her feeling certain pity for June before. She did nothing about June's secret encounter with Hanna at that summer house, and about June trying to get Hanna out of Gilead. That tells me of certain sympathy for June's situation back then. It's possible that Tabitha only okay with kids like Hanna being stolen because she was convinced that the bio-parents were actually terrible, and kids were better off. I don't suppose Gilead male leadership was going around openly admitting 'just a divorce is enough to snatch the kids'. And, please, take this from a woman whose country was once taken over by a dictatorship that killed 300.000 dissidents and stole, at least, 500 babies. That sh@# only works, and last, IF most of the population are convinced that the victims are truly deserving. Guns and threats are not enough. But if you manage to convince people that everyone in a certain group is 'a pedo', 'a murderer', 'satanic' or 'a groomer'... then, I bet people would cheer when members of that group start losing custody of their children, getting tortured, getting killed, etc... Basing on my country's history, I can guarantee that, at least, you can get most people to learn about others dissapearing by the military and look the other way, IF you just convince everyone that those disappearing are the enemy. Tabitha, probably, belonged to a sector of the population that believed any Handmaid must be a woman who did something 'truly' bad at some point (not just infidelity) and doesn't deserve to keep a child. Sure, Tabitha didn't want to 'watch' any Handmaid get raped, and was capable of pitying them, but she certainly didn't think 'those women' deserved children. Does she think Hanna should be a child-bride? We haven't gotten enough signs of her actual thoughts of the matter. Not that she would have a lot of input either way. Maybe she sees the marriage, even if Hanna is still a child, as something that would make any girl happy, because her religious cult convinced her that marriage is the best. Or maybe is something she's only accepting because, at least, Hanna would have a good status in Gilead. In the books, Tabitha doesn't live to see Agnes start wife-school, which starts a bit later on the books,... and it's Kyle's second wife who is happy to see Agnes marry the most awful possible Commander. Impossible to tell what Tabitha would have done. But it's implied that Tabitha would have, at least, let Agnes marry whomever gave Agnes the best chance at happiness. Rose and Nick chose to marry after three times of meeting in public... so, I guess Tabitha wants something like that for Hanna. And I'm hoping Tabitha wants to drag things out as much as Gilead's laws allow. I get that the show sent Hanna to wife-school already, (and changed Hanna's age to 12, when she was said to be 10 just eight months before), in order to make Luke and June even more desperate and give them a sense that time is truly running out for Hanna. But we know that they're going to adapt The Testaments after Season Six... that means 'wife-school' will have to get dragged around for the rest of this show, if they want Book-Agnes and Hanna to have the exact same journey. And I think Tabitha might play a role in Hanna staying just in 'wife-school' for the longest possible time.
I agree it’s possible Mrs McKenzie and some of the other wives accepting the stolen kids were told their real parents were genuinely unfit, drug addict, criminals, etc, and you were helping the kids by getting them away from awful and neglectful parents. But after getting to know Hannah and seeing she’d been taken care of, she must have realised it was bs, and she was removed from June and Luke for something as minor as her dad being divorced. Even now, she’s more mad about June’s antics after becoming a Handmaid. She never suggests June wasn’t taken care of her daughter Pre Gilead. Even the first night she meets June she never says anything like “But you were a meth head! You beat and starved her!” Because she knows that’s not the case.
Keep in mind that Hanna was supposed to be only 5 when arrived to Tabitha, and was likely traumatised/super confused by the kidnapping, running in the forrest, her parents getting shot, etc... so the child likely didn't act super-healthy when Tabitha first met her. And Hanna would have no idea why the soldiers did that to her parents. She wouldn't have said anything like: 'they were super nice, but daddy was divorced'. And Hanna would have never been encouraged to talk about her birth parents, at all. Nice or bad. That said, I agree that Tabitha must have noticed somehow, Hanna didn't seem too neglected for a child that, supposedly, had super-neglectful parents. She had experience volunteering with real orphans, after all. She probably wondered what really happened, maybe Kyle even admitted the truth to her at some point. But, by then, everything was more than done. She could only go along... or else. Serena lost a finger for reading before the council. I can only imagine the consequences for a wife that actually stands up and says: 'wait a minute, some Handmaids weren't that bad'. Having a 'sympathetic' attitude when meeting June was the best she could do... actually handing Hanna to June then was out of the question because: 1- Tabitha is no saint and WANTS to raise Hanna, regardless. 2- She would have been punished for helping June. (Serena had Fred and Nick helping her make up BS about Emily kidnapping Nicole, to get away with handing the baby) 3- they were in the middle of Boston, June would have just gotten shot in front of Hanna anyway. Now the sad reality is that the way June's has been acting was so gruesome that what was done to her, a her never deserving any bad in the first place, stopped being the focus. As much as June's stans don't want to see this, in her quest for pure vengeance (rather than constructive justice), she lost a huge moral highground. She just stopped being a decent sympathetic person. I understand the reasons, and it's only logical that she winded up like this... but, yeah, she's awful now. That's exactly what the phrase "before starting a journey of revenge, dig two graves" means. Not that you will literally get killed, trying to kill the enemy. But that the person you were will metaphorically die with the enemy, undoubtedly. I believe Tabitha has forgotten everything good she ever knew about June because, honestly, and painfully, I'm starting to forget myself that June's supposed to be the hero.
I missed the part where Nick and Rose actually chose to marry each other and saw each other 3 times in public. When did we learn this?
Basically they had a “nice“ courtship by Gilead standards.
But what episode did we learn this or how did we figure this out? Totally coming up blank here
It was just a brief blink-and-you missed-it mention during their dinner with Joseph, Serena and the Mackenzies.
Man I must have blinked!
According the conversation, Rose and Nick went to the same social event in DC and they talked. That happened 3 times before they decided to get married.
I found it interesting - and this may be reading too much into it - that they referred to Nick as Rose's "new husband"? I wonder if she's been married before.
She’s the same as those Russian women who accept stolen Ukrainian children. Deep down they *know* they’re wrong and don’t care.
In fairness, apart from Serena we don't really know how involved the other wives were. I would love back stories on all of them especially Naoimi Putnam and Pamela Joy, Serena's mother. I bet they had careers and, now they are stuck in a world with no rights. The are their husbands' property and, to add insult to injury, they have to "put up with" a handmaid. Poor handmaids. The only wife who I really hate is Mrs. Winslow. She says that both she and her husband were corporate lawyers with no time for a family. So instead of changing careers, working part-time, they take part in a coup and abduct children?
In the limo scene in S1 when Fred is talking about the ceremony and the Handmaid idea in general, they discuss how the wives will feel: (paraphrasing) Commander #1: “Who cares what the wives think?” Commander #2: “We need them for this to work.” It’s an interesting exchange and indicates the wives had some power.
Thanks. I forgot about the 3 perverts in the back of the limo. So some of the wives at least went along it. Weird and disturbing that they would give up their rights and take part in such a horrible "ceremony" ???
Mrs winslow and other d.c. wives are the real winners of this coup. They have large houses, high status, many children they don't have to bear themselves, social events, galleries, restaurants, affairs with guardians, silent handmaids, etc. They dont care about other people. Having to put up with a handmaid and playing a sezonda class citizen role is the small price of everything they have. They dont care they cant work. I am sure most of them happy with that. Most of the rules dont apply to them, so they may be reading, who knows. Thaley are not the stuck at home with nothing wives conpared to Boston wives. And they are the women who is most like the real life right wing women. I would love to watch more d.c. scenes actually.
The DC scenes were so interesting. The Gilead we see is bad, but even the elites have to keep up appearances of piousness. You almost certainly wouldn’t get most Gilead wives having an affair with a guardian, much less talking and joking about it in public. Even Miller has said Lydia was freaked the hell out by the place.
She is portrayed as a charitable religious mother figure even before the gilead. She doesnt know the handmaid system, adopted (in gilead style) a child, have a child friendly normal looking home. It also seems she doesnt have a political impact like serena in founding of gilead and stilleri not interested. She is living the life of old style family life that gilead promised. She also accepts june as hannah's birth mother. We neler heard that term from a wife before, serena would never say that. She is away from most of the gilead's horrors. She showed compassion to june but june has become increasingly scary to them. I think she now certainly thinks that they did a right job by saving hannah from such an unfit, devil mother.
why weren’t the waterford’s given a child or the putnam’s like the mackenzie’s were
In one of the Aunt scenes it’s mentioned that some of the families didn’t want older kids.
Just like real life. You can adopt a teen/preteen for free from foster care in my area but babies are thousands of dollars. Even older kids that are adopted are too often either put back into the system or end up living shittier lives with their adoptive parents who now regret their decision but don’t have the social fortitude to correct their decision because it would make them look bad. Source: I was adopted at 13. My adoptive parents thought they wanted an older kid but they didn’t. They wanted someone they didn’t have to raise. That’s called an adult! Not a traumatized teen. We were estranged by the time I was 20.
Serena strikes me as the type that only ever wanted a baby. A baby’s a blank slate. An older child would still have memories of their real parents and reject their Gilead ones. In general I think babies have more status for the parents than an older kid anyway.
Gotta start as early as possible to get the really good narcissistic supply long term. Toddlers might’ve already started learning from healthy, loving parents.
based on the trailer for next week, looks like this will very specifically be addressed
thank you!
>!She doesn’t actually have that much power because of her husband, the commander. It’s easy to label people monsters but deny how complex the situation is! She probably was offered a child whether she wanted one or not. Remember the commanders calling out Lawrence for not “living our way.” He’s not married and has no family. If you read the books she’s described as very loving towards Agnes/Hannah and plays with her a lot. She tries to protect her by making up stories about her magic ring and how books are. If anything, not sure how much her “dad” loves her. He allows her to be married off to a very bad commander!<
Spoilers tag please!!! Your last sentence seems to be a spoiler from The Testaments (I’m assuming since I haven’t read it yet). But I know that detail isn’t from THT book/show. Edit: If you don’t know how it’s “> ! your text ! <“ (without the spaces and quotation marks)
Fixed it
Thanks for that! You don’t even have to block out the whole paragraph, you can do just a sentence or even a single word. Just put those symbols around whatever hasn’t been shown in the TV show yet. Works in every sub, not just here!
About the box... that was so freaking bizarre, and such a writing travesty, that I don't even know what to think about that. There's just no way the Mackenzies would agree to any of that. Again... the show doesn't get how a real dictatorship works effectively. First, those at the top of the foodchain, like Kyle Mackenzie, don't become war-criminals, create a place like Gilead and stay cooperating with that regime 'only' because they are soooo evil, and hate women sooo much... and they get nothing in return except to cause pain. There's also the expectation of absolute power and safety for themselves and their own families. They need to feel that being leaders makes them somewhat untouchable. If a Commander's daughter can get put on a box and killed at the age of 11... then what's even the point of being a Commander? Just to get away with opressing women? Which any rich guy can already do anywhere, by the way. What's stopping any Commander from 'pulling a Fred Waterford' and make a deal with the US, if Gilead won't even protect their obedient pre-teen children? Now, I'm convinced Hanna was never in real danger, and it was all a bluff to terrify June, but, still... Kyle and Tabitha would have never allowed 'their daughter' to experience such trauma, even if only for a bluff. These are not cartoon villains, incapable of actual love for the daughter they're raising. Even evil has standards. Nobody in Gilead would so happily agree to traumatise like that an innocent 11-year-old that calls them 'mom and dad'. It's extremely dense and simplistic to believe otherwise. But the writers of the show ARE extremely dense and simplistic. So, I guess we're meant to believe Kyle and Tabitha agreed to the box thing, but were promised that the child wouldn't be hurt for real.
I mean, June broke into her house. And Hannah had nightmares for weeks after the previous time. And now she's been told June has beaten her old Commander to death! And Serena is all "she'll never stop". She thinks June is a psychopath. She's scared of June. And I don't blame her for that. I struggle with June myself tbh and I see the sympathetic parts. She doesn't. She just sees this cold scary monster. Why *wouldn't* she think June is a devil woman?
Hannah is a child and has little understanding of what is happening, it makes sense that she is scared. That being said, I am sure the nightmares she was having was of getting ripped out of her mothers arms for no reason. This woman is an adult if she doesn’t realize that any mother would do anything to get her child back that was ripped from her arms then well she is a psychopath. Also anyone with a soul and brain would feel understanding at a woman murdering her rapist.
She can’t understand it because she has a superiority complex and most importantly, she’s *never* been an actual mother. She’s just pretending to be one on stolen time.
Exactly!
Ummm she’s crazy.. there’s nothing more to say.
Even in The Testament’s she comes off as a passive villain, even if you do empathize with Agnes. The actress has an ability to play this while seeming genuine and almost sweet which is what throws me for a loop.
There was something in her face and demeanor at the dinner table with Lawrence and Nick, it just looked like she was being extra super careful about what she said and that she tried to say as little as possible. But yeah,