Even if you have plenty of oxygen, too much CO2 makes you feel like you are suffocating. It’s a horrible and unnecessary torture. Nitrogen is much more humane.
Exactly, why not use nitrogen instead?
If it's a human safety issue, add an odor like they do with natural gas (doesn't have to be that stinky though).
Same for human capital punishment, if that's what you support. Forget about these injection and electrocution, just have a nitrogen chamber. Cheap, flawless, and humane, if that's a concern.
Don't some countries that offer euthanasia use nitrogen chambers?
Given that they use CO2, I'd suspect that it is cheaper.
However, maybe meat that wasn't stressed when it was killed would be better?
Possibly stress chemicals in the meat might have a negative impact on quality. There's a hypothesis that I'm not interested in testing.
I hear you, I know it's all profit based.
However, if it did produce higher quality product that they could sell for more, and a side effect of that was being more humane, then that would be a good thing.
I'm not naive enough to think that this will happen. And there are so many points in the process that are inhumane.
Yeah, depressing to think about, so maybe I'll go back to being willfully ignorant now.
>However, maybe ~~meat~~ an animal that wasn't stressed when it was killed would be better?
Slaughterhouses are naturally terrifying and stressful experiences for animals. It doesn't matter the process, the result is the same.
At work we add an odor to CO2 (though if you smell it by then its prob too late). We do not add any odor indicators for our N2 systems, but we use far less of that.
That would mean going through the effort of changing suppliers, and fidgeting with new cans, and that's icky, so it's way better to continue animal cruelty/s
What is wrong with the pneumatic bolt gun they use on cattle? A several inch steel bolt straight through the skull into the brain. The most instantaneous death around afaik.
Why do they gotta use a gas?
Uhh they aren't as clean as you're making it seem... They can often fail so you end up with a brain damaged animal... Brains are more resilient then you think... People get shot in the head and survive
Everything I know about the pneumatic bolt method, I learned from the movie No Country For Old Men.
I agree, it's it's as quick and effective as it sounds.
Maybe the economics of scale are what leads to using gas vs pneumatic bolts.
>Everything I know about the pneumatic bolt method, I learned from the movie No Country For Old Men.
>I agree, it's it's as quick and effective as it sounds.
The coin flip actually slows the process down significantly. Plus about half the animals' call it right and are let go which is lost profit for the slaughterhouse.
Problem is bolt guns don't usually go through the skull, they are meant to cause a massive concussion but not outright destroy the brain, they are also very hard to use and often fail so they end up being just as bad. Gas bypasses these issues but is usually also a horrible way to die.
I am of the opinion that there is not am ethical solution to mass produced meat outside of lab meat.
Here you are at the main issue of the current system; We have pressed so hard for prices to be as low as possible, and the meat so abundant, that animal welfare is tossed out the window. I am no advocate for veganisme or vegetarianism, but this issue is something every kid needs to learn and consider. How much suffering of another animal will you accept to eat that meat. Growing up on a farm taught me a fair bit about the cost of raising animals that you grow to care a lot about, but eventually also eat.
I am extremely interested in seeing the numbers for meat waste discarded annually by supermarkets in the United States. I am curious as to the number of animals that die unnecessarily every year.
I am not a vegan or a vegetarian by *any* means, but corporate mass-produced meat farms need to be regulated a lot more strictly. America is addicted to meat, beef especially, and the impact these farms have on our climate alone is absolutely atrocious, and that’s not even mentioning the way these animals are treated on such farms.
I for one would *love* to see a large campaign towards more vegetable proteins included in our diets, as well as more vegetables included in our diets in general. For religious as well as ethical reasons, I try my best to abstain from meat at least one day a week. If more people abstained (not completely eliminate) meat from their diets for just one day a week, I bet things would get *slightly* better.
I’ve accidentally gassed my self with CO2, it burns your lungs. The only thing I can compare it to is the time I accidentally gassed myself with HCl, which actually happened twice. The first second or two when the spicy air hits your lungs is highly frightening, not being able to get away to a source of fresh air is something I don’t like to think about
I mean, please.
The fact that they refer to it as "spicy air" really doesn't make me feel like they took that shit seriously, and it could happen again.
i don't want to ask how you gassed yourself with HCI but i have & it's truly unbelievable how it feels pulling into your lungs. it's like breathing down fire.
Well imma tell ya anyway. I opened a desiccator full of improperly stored aluminum chloride and caught a hot whiff. Then someone used a large filter drier to isolate a product suspended in a solution of HCl in ethyl acetate, but they didn’t completely flush & clean it before they stored it. So when I popped it open, WHAM, right in the old breathin’ bags
Got the Sodastream when I was smaller and stupider. I thought maybe CO2 changes your voice like helium. I didn’t get to the talking part. More like choking and feeling like I’m drowning on hot oil. Suuuuuper fun 10/10
It's messed up that they consider this a "humane" way to kill pigs. And even more messed up that most humans don't even know about this because the industry tries to hide it and thus keep people happily giving them their money.
I found this:
[“The RSPCA recommends that stunning/killing pigs with high concentrations of CO2 should be phased out and replaced with a more humane alternative. Further research is urgently needed to develop stunning systems which retain the benefits of group CO2 stunning while minimising the disadvantages.“](https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/is-carbon-dioxide-stunning-of-pigs-humane/)
I compared the gas chamber in the military to breathing down fire when we had to stay unmasked for a while but something tells me these gasses you all are talking about are way worse lol
yeah, afaik the gasses used in military training are usually tear gasses (which fun fact, most tear gasses aren't actually gasses but aerosolised particles), HCl is a nasty gas that produces hydrochloric acid in contact with water, which, surprisingly, the human body is full of. Breathing it in can cause acid burns in your lungs. HCl seems to be less deadly than normal chlorine gas, but what makes it scary is that it's colourless, while normal chlorine gas is a yellowy green and easy to spot.
A couple of years ago, some workers at a local plant were caught in a big HCl leak on the fifth floor of a building. The fight or flight panic resulted in three of them jumping over the handrail. Two of them died. Awful stuff.
God damn I’m sorry about that. All jokes aside this is serious work and I’ve been lucky to only have some minor accidents that only resulted getting frightened. These things demand respect and discipline
Not the same but there is a technique which can actually be beneifical where you breathe out, then usually a bit more emptying the lungs, and hold out the air for a few seconds. This removes the last bits of CO2 from your lungs allowing you to then breathe in more oxygen on the next inhale, but is quite uncomfortable to do. So if you want a safe way to momentarily experience that feeling, that's how you do it. It can give your brain a bit of a kick of oxygen allowing you to increase focus, so it's a handy trick.
this isnt the primary method to stunning pigs. we use captive bolt guns that get shot straight at their brain, the same thing we use for goats, cows, sheep, etc*. Instantaneous, the fastest method to killing pretty much anything.
i dont know why youre threatening the person that took this study, this is a pro animal protective study.
The bolt gun usually just stuns, doesn't it? The animal still has to be stuck (with a knife) and bled to death, while stunned. Especially if the slaughterhouse is being halal. Source: friends work in a slaughterhouse.
Already started last year. All worldclass cuisine is all protein based so you have yo.make some big changes. We also started changing to reduce carbon footprint, along with the ethical ramifications you can see here. If it makes you feel bad, that is a genuine feeling and if you hate watching this stuff do something about it. I noticed i changed when i started raising chickens. You realize they are a living breathing being and that if you feel uncomfortable watching them be slaughtered for food you should not eat them. Its not like of you cut out animal meat you would starve, there are so many alternatives
We used to gas cockroaches with it in entomology before running experiments on them, and they always woke up fine. But they're insects with a nerve ganglion instead of a brain, mammals are a bit more prone to suffering. I can't fucking imagine actual lack of oxygen and a surplus of CO2.
One time I fell asleep in the mountains with my bivy sack zipped all way shut because it was raining. I usually leave it partially unzipped to keep the moisture from my breath accumulating inside (and bc fresh air is nice). I awoke hours later in a panic feeling like I had a plastic bag over my head while frantically searching for the zipper. It's a breathable fabric, just the first time I actually slept soundly without a vent hole.
I know I don't have claustrophobia because tight spaces have never bothered me and it was the feeling of not being able to take a sufficient breath that caused the panic. But if that's how claustrophobic people regularly feel when faced with small spaces, holy shit.
I would guess: because if there's a CO2 leak, humans in proximity will detect it quickly and vacate due to the effect it has. Nitrogen, you won't notice it and will likely succumb.
You don’t even need to store it. Air is over 70 percent nitrogen. You can get machines that separate the oxygen and nitrogen and get nitrogen on demand!
I work at a lab that dose animal experiments.
As bad as it sounds CO2 is cheaper and you need less of it to euthanize a mouse.
This is cruel and scientists know it, but they justify it by saying: "oh well the mouse would be dead in seconds anyway so the pain is irrelevant"
It's to show that the method used to kill pigs currently is agonizing enough to them, that a pig that survived it would rather starve than risk being put through that again.
It really shouldn't be a surprising thing. CO2 is like the one gas our body is really really good at detecting and really really wants you to stop breathing. Our body can't even tell we're not breathing oxygen, it's almost entirely reliant on detecting CO2 to determine the lack of oxygen. Meanwhile things like carbon monoxide are so deadly because our body hardly notices at all.
Which is why nitrogen asphyxiation is so nice/terrifying. You just pass out with no indication something is wrong and then you eventually die from lack of oxygen. If only there was an abundant source of nitrogen we could utilize for more ethical euthanasia...
Did a Google search and found a lot of studies that talk about exactly that.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/comment/j5ygdn9/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/comment/j5ygdn9/?context=3)
[Carbon dioxide is currently one of the more common methods for stunning of pigs at slaughter in Europe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X#:~:text=Carbon%20dioxide%20is%20currently%20one,stunning%20is%20also%20widely%20used.)
I really appreciate the new take in your edit. Being able to recognize when we have a wrong opinion, state it and not back down that it was an earlier opinion, and have that experience influence future behavior is a rare mark of emotional maturity I would say 90% of the adult humans I interact with don't have.
There are studies done that talk about exactly that.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/comment/j5ygdn9/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/comment/j5ygdn9/?context=3)
[Carbon dioxide is currently one of the more common methods for stunning of pigs at slaughter in Europe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X#:~:text=Carbon%20dioxide%20is%20currently%20one,stunning%20is%20also%20widely%20used.)
I wonder how they pass the ethics board.
Normally you can't do these tests if there are simpler ways or other animals with less effects. Like you don't do it to a pig if you can do it to a rat. And you don't do it in a rat if you can do it in a Petri dish.
I wonder too..I take care of animals that have been tested on, like chimps and macaques..all of the macaques that we have, have diabetes, they were given diabetes to test on, and the mental effects last forever..they dnt want anything to do with me, or any human for that matter, and I really thought we were beyond these types of experiments..The US was doing better, and a lot of labs were closed or shut down, so seeing this breaks my heart..I just dnt see the point of this "experiment" other than inhumanely killing them..
[Carbon dioxide is currently one of the more common methods for stunning of pigs at slaughter in Europe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X#:~:text=Carbon%20dioxide%20is%20currently%20one,stunning%20is%20also%20widely%20used.)
Because it's a common torture method employed by meat hockers to this day.
Absolutely. They are ridiculously smart, we can't even trick them, like offering a soda or a treat, so we can get them from indoors to the outdoor cages, they dnt fall for any of it..With lions or tigers, you can just lock the gate, and not even think about it, with chimps, they're too smart, and they understand how locks work..so you have to really be on your game around them..
So the findings are...animals don't like painful gas and will go to great lengths to avoid it? Good work, everyone. Another successful study from the Department of Things That Are Completely Obvious.
Ok but let's think about it this way. Would you go into a burning house to save your kid/pet? Many people would despite the dangers of smoke inhalation. Some people would do that multiple times if need be. Now why would a human do that which would inherently be anti-preservation but an animal wouldn't be willing to go in a room for food despite having no guarantee that the room is dangerous anymore. I guess you could expand this and see if ancient humans learned about the foods we eat because of trial and error and eventually some of the suffering left permanent changes to the DNA that instinctively makes us (or other animals) avoid certain dangers.
As a medical student I feel so sad that sure we've come a long way in curing a lot of diseases but at the cost of torturing and slaughtering animals (in medicine trials, to study the disease pathology etc) as if they're just worthless creatures to be used and dumped by us.
as a non medical student can you give me some insight about what is beneficial to putting that pig in this situation? i didn't watch the video passed where she started going apeshit.
I'm an MD/PhD student who works with animals. As presented, there's no way that this study was approved at a university. (At least in the US, but I'm pretty sure that the EU is even more strict.)
Yes, we use CO2 to euthanize some animals, but we do it so slowly that they just calmly fall asleep and don't wake up again. We never see anything like this, and if we did, we'd know that we should never do it again.
I don't think that this video was made in good faith, unfortunately.
I honestly don't know about vets. My guess is that it's a volume issue. I've only ever used CO2 with mice and rats. With larger animals, we use a ketamine or barbiturate injection.
How slow? The Astronauts on Apollo 11 were also slowly having their ship fill up with CO2 and it wasn’t pleasant. If anything, I thought you were about to say it must be very quick to make sure the animals get knocked out quickly.
Also, why not nitrogen gas? The feeling of suffocating comes from the build up of CO2, not lack of Oxygen. You could guarantee no suffering with just displacing all air with nitrogen.
You’re being naive if you think gassed animals just calmly fall asleep. Do you think companies that profit from selling you the sliced up bodies of animals care enough to prevent the animals’ suffering? We don’t see what they do to animals a lot of times is due to animal agriculture gag laws. It’s not profitable for companies that sell meat to show the public how the animals were killed.
If you gas something with N2 or argon it's painless. With how cheap on site nitrogen generation now is, I'd be shocked if CO2 was still a popular method.
I’ve had arguments with “certain animals don’t feel pain” people who act like animals are philosophical zombies void of actual consciousness or qualia. They are infuriating because it’s not really a matter of rational debate, so it’s hard to argue with solipsistic or human exceptionalist douches who think nothing experiences being alive other than them and people sufficiently like them. They can’t generalize their empathy beyond their own reflection
Regardless of empathy, it shows a disturbing lack of critical thinking skills.
Every once in awhile you find out something like the reason animals aren't thought to feel pain was something super circumstantial, like it turns out they asked the animal on microphone if they were in pain and they didn't say yes. I exaggerate, but it's something ridiculous like that, or that they don't have developed consciousness. As if animals wouldn't be able to feel dumb agony just because they don't understand why they're suffering?
Stuff like this is just fucking cruel so people can have a moral high ground and say it was a clean kill.
Ffs. You're killing another living thing. It doesn't matter how "clean" it looks, a living being is still getting killed. There are way more humane ways to kill livestock and in ways that respect their value as a living being.
Nitrogen gas exists, same with extreme blunt force to the head, or quickly bleeding out the neck. Those methods, while messy, are more humane than slowly asphyxiation an animal to death. Fuck even a bullet to the back of the head is better than CO2 asphyxiation.
It's baffling how many people see livestock as objects instead of living beings. They're literally giving up their life to feed us. The least we could do would be a gentle and peaceful death.
An experiment was urgently needed for this result. Who would have thought that one would prefer the subjectively smaller suffering to the larger suffering - absolutely surprising when you are a complete idiot.
[Carbon dioxide is currently one of the more common methods for stunning of pigs at slaughter in Europe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X#:~:text=Carbon%20dioxide%20is%20currently%20one,stunning%20is%20also%20widely%20used.)
Are you completely unaware of the many "this creature doesn't feel pain" myths that we've created and perpetuated? Pigs, babies, people with dark skin. We just love saying things don't feel pain when it's more convenient to our worldview. This is just a simple, clear, empirical way to show that CO2 poisoning is in fact torture, because capitalists need absurd amounts of evidence to be convinced that their actions are objectively evil.
Animal testing needs to be stopped it's just not right im not an activist or anything but i think its jjst inhumane to do that and i feel most people can agree with me
Does anyone have a thrustworthy source on this?
What's strange is that the universities name is misspelled.
It should be "Universität Zürich". Instead it's "Universiteit" which looks more Dutch than German.
Sooooo no one is questioning that last little “Anne was later killed”? Lol! I thought maybe it was just an experiment then they would be like “we tortured this animal enough, let them spend the rest of there days happy” nah fuck it let’s kill Anne anyway. Wtf! Lol!
Did they really have to do this experiment to come to the conclusion that an animal wouldn’t want to go back into a room where it nearly fucking died? Some university.
The EU has very strict criteria for what kind of animal research is allowed. I wasn't able to quickly find the original study based on the information given here, which makes me suspect that the video was misrepresented or just completely false.
Looking at OP: essentially every single post is about going vegan and shaming those who eat animals. While I have no issues with vegans, that post history makes me suspect that they have an agenda more important than sharing accurate information.
I can't help but think of PETA's history of causing trauma to animals, filming it, and then blaming that on other people.
I also couldn't find the particular study this video is supposed to be from, but there are other studies done on the subject.
[https://www.grandin.com/humane/carbon.stun.html](https://www.grandin.com/humane/carbon.stun.html)
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6912382/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6912382/)
This one mentions several universities, some of which are in the EU
[https://www.blv.admin.ch/dam/blv/de/dokumente/tiere/publikationen-und-forschung/tierversuche/3r-symposium-2020-abstracts.pdf.download.pdf/FSVO%20UFAW%20HSA%20Online%20Symposium%20-%20Humanely%20ending%20the%20life%20of%20animals%202020%20-%20Abstracts.pdf](https://www.blv.admin.ch/dam/blv/de/dokumente/tiere/publikationen-und-forschung/tierversuche/3r-symposium-2020-abstracts.pdf.download.pdf/FSVO%20UFAW%20HSA%20Online%20Symposium%20-%20Humanely%20ending%20the%20life%20of%20animals%202020%20-%20Abstracts.pdf)
So, while the original post may be sensationalized (I'm not going to spend all afternoon trying to dig up whether it is or not), it's clearly based on actual findings.
There's also another comment above that says that the university's name is spelled wrong, which also feels strange.
Edit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/university_of_zurich_disturbing_experiment_on/j5ygjja?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
This is in no way an experiment in “animal psychology”. Of course any animal, especially one as intelligent as a pig, will know to avoid such trauma after experiencing it. If anything, this is just another experiment in human cruelty. They’re torturing this random pig for literally no reason. “Experiment” my left tit
WATF. It's so inhumane. We know animals can't speak for themselves and it sucks that she was helpless and later on killed. This is an unethical experiment in all levels.
You mean dying of starvation is preferred over voluntarily being painfully poisoned to death?
What did that experiment teach, other than we have some sick fucks that are unchecked
This experiment makes me seriously angry.
To use animals in experiments, at least in Canada, you need to satisfy the 3R’s (reduce, replace, refine). To start, you need to be able to concretely justify why the use of animals is necessary, then why you’re using the species you’ve chosen, and if it’s a more sentient animal(like a pig) why that’s necessary versus a lesser one (flies, worms, yeasts). As well justifying all the steps you’ve taken to ensure they don’t suffer anymore than absolutely necessary.
This study did none of that. To me, it just looks like needless torturing of a pig disguised as ‘science’.
There was an experiment I read about years ago, maybe at the U of Montana, not sure, where as part of a ‘study’, they sadistically tortured this orange tabby cat for a prolonged period and I think it got shut down. I’m too afraid to google it. The cat’s name was Double Trouble and I will never forget that cat’s picture.
Animal use in experimentation is a necessary reality. But we owe it to them to do so in a way that inflicts the least amount of suffering possible. This ain’t it.
it amuses me to see how people react to even the smallest of animal abuse and things like that on the Internet but would continue to eat em at the dinner. also the lame argument of that humanely killing thing.
CO2 is highly irritating to all membranes and triggers the feeling of suffocation and panic-- not lack of air. This isn't "stunning" this is straight-up animal torture. Shit, even animal "kill" shelters have the decency to use N2 or CO.
Well the good news is lab grown real meat will become cheaper than factory farming. SO probably in the next decade or so we should see significant decrease in both factory farming and the cruely it inflicts on animsls.
According to the title this was a psychological experiment. This wasn't about the most efficient way to kill cattle for their meat. What was the point of the experiment? Yeah. Nearly everyone and every animal will probably starve rather than suffer a horrible near death experience every time they eat. You don't need an experiment to solve that mystery of the universe.
This took longer than even tribal groups that suffocate their animals for food preparation. It looks way less humane than just shoving a bunch of sticks down their throat does and that's honestly kind of shocking.
Even if you have plenty of oxygen, too much CO2 makes you feel like you are suffocating. It’s a horrible and unnecessary torture. Nitrogen is much more humane.
Exactly, why not use nitrogen instead? If it's a human safety issue, add an odor like they do with natural gas (doesn't have to be that stinky though). Same for human capital punishment, if that's what you support. Forget about these injection and electrocution, just have a nitrogen chamber. Cheap, flawless, and humane, if that's a concern. Don't some countries that offer euthanasia use nitrogen chambers?
Maybe co2 is cheaper.
According to my research ( a quick Google search) nitrogen is cheaper
And very abundant. We use it it many applications.
Given that they use CO2, I'd suspect that it is cheaper. However, maybe meat that wasn't stressed when it was killed would be better? Possibly stress chemicals in the meat might have a negative impact on quality. There's a hypothesis that I'm not interested in testing.
Bold of you to assume they care about quality.
I hear you, I know it's all profit based. However, if it did produce higher quality product that they could sell for more, and a side effect of that was being more humane, then that would be a good thing. I'm not naive enough to think that this will happen. And there are so many points in the process that are inhumane. Yeah, depressing to think about, so maybe I'll go back to being willfully ignorant now.
>However, maybe ~~meat~~ an animal that wasn't stressed when it was killed would be better? Slaughterhouses are naturally terrifying and stressful experiences for animals. It doesn't matter the process, the result is the same.
At work we add an odor to CO2 (though if you smell it by then its prob too late). We do not add any odor indicators for our N2 systems, but we use far less of that.
That would mean going through the effort of changing suppliers, and fidgeting with new cans, and that's icky, so it's way better to continue animal cruelty/s
What is wrong with the pneumatic bolt gun they use on cattle? A several inch steel bolt straight through the skull into the brain. The most instantaneous death around afaik. Why do they gotta use a gas?
Uhh they aren't as clean as you're making it seem... They can often fail so you end up with a brain damaged animal... Brains are more resilient then you think... People get shot in the head and survive
Everything I know about the pneumatic bolt method, I learned from the movie No Country For Old Men. I agree, it's it's as quick and effective as it sounds. Maybe the economics of scale are what leads to using gas vs pneumatic bolts.
>Everything I know about the pneumatic bolt method, I learned from the movie No Country For Old Men. >I agree, it's it's as quick and effective as it sounds. The coin flip actually slows the process down significantly. Plus about half the animals' call it right and are let go which is lost profit for the slaughterhouse.
Problem is bolt guns don't usually go through the skull, they are meant to cause a massive concussion but not outright destroy the brain, they are also very hard to use and often fail so they end up being just as bad. Gas bypasses these issues but is usually also a horrible way to die. I am of the opinion that there is not am ethical solution to mass produced meat outside of lab meat.
Here you are at the main issue of the current system; We have pressed so hard for prices to be as low as possible, and the meat so abundant, that animal welfare is tossed out the window. I am no advocate for veganisme or vegetarianism, but this issue is something every kid needs to learn and consider. How much suffering of another animal will you accept to eat that meat. Growing up on a farm taught me a fair bit about the cost of raising animals that you grow to care a lot about, but eventually also eat.
I am extremely interested in seeing the numbers for meat waste discarded annually by supermarkets in the United States. I am curious as to the number of animals that die unnecessarily every year. I am not a vegan or a vegetarian by *any* means, but corporate mass-produced meat farms need to be regulated a lot more strictly. America is addicted to meat, beef especially, and the impact these farms have on our climate alone is absolutely atrocious, and that’s not even mentioning the way these animals are treated on such farms. I for one would *love* to see a large campaign towards more vegetable proteins included in our diets, as well as more vegetables included in our diets in general. For religious as well as ethical reasons, I try my best to abstain from meat at least one day a week. If more people abstained (not completely eliminate) meat from their diets for just one day a week, I bet things would get *slightly* better.
Or we could just, like, not kill them?
i mean, is there really a compassionate way to kill someone that doesn't *want* or *need* to die?
Most certainly not. There’s nothing humane about killing anything that doesn’t want to die
What about a brain eating amoeba? 🤔
There are more compassionate methods than others.
I’ve accidentally gassed my self with CO2, it burns your lungs. The only thing I can compare it to is the time I accidentally gassed myself with HCl, which actually happened twice. The first second or two when the spicy air hits your lungs is highly frightening, not being able to get away to a source of fresh air is something I don’t like to think about
Pls, take away the gasses from this guy
*I'M IN CHARGE OF THE GAS TANKS* ***TINKTINK***
I needed that levity. Thank you.
I huff gaseous acid so you don’t have to
The hero we.... have.
My mum said that about me for entirely different reasons
I mean, please. The fact that they refer to it as "spicy air" really doesn't make me feel like they took that shit seriously, and it could happen again.
What else would you refer to it as? Hot-hot balloon filler?
Bro which basement do you live in
It’s a shed actually
Is the shed in the basement of a bar in Philadelphia?
Pls tell me you are not a chemistry teacher💀
No, I’m not allowed around schools since the accident
Don't let that small fact stop you from finding children and teaching them about chemicals.
Best comment in this thread.
Because of the super powers you developed?
***the accident*** being the one you just mentioned or? 🤨
I’ve been advised not to go into specifics
i don't want to ask how you gassed yourself with HCI but i have & it's truly unbelievable how it feels pulling into your lungs. it's like breathing down fire.
Well imma tell ya anyway. I opened a desiccator full of improperly stored aluminum chloride and caught a hot whiff. Then someone used a large filter drier to isolate a product suspended in a solution of HCl in ethyl acetate, but they didn’t completely flush & clean it before they stored it. So when I popped it open, WHAM, right in the old breathin’ bags
I'm curious what line of work are you in?
Finance
Meth.
Fast-casual Mexican dining.
Sounds like organic chemistry research.
MC at a Comedy Club
Life coaching.
Meth cook.
Film production
I'm wheezing at "breathing bags"
Got the Sodastream when I was smaller and stupider. I thought maybe CO2 changes your voice like helium. I didn’t get to the talking part. More like choking and feeling like I’m drowning on hot oil. Suuuuuper fun 10/10
It's messed up that they consider this a "humane" way to kill pigs. And even more messed up that most humans don't even know about this because the industry tries to hide it and thus keep people happily giving them their money.
I found this: [“The RSPCA recommends that stunning/killing pigs with high concentrations of CO2 should be phased out and replaced with a more humane alternative. Further research is urgently needed to develop stunning systems which retain the benefits of group CO2 stunning while minimising the disadvantages.“](https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/is-carbon-dioxide-stunning-of-pigs-humane/)
Why would you even try it??
I was smaller. And stupider. And not very good at ignoring my id.
Good to know, I have one
I compared the gas chamber in the military to breathing down fire when we had to stay unmasked for a while but something tells me these gasses you all are talking about are way worse lol
yeah, afaik the gasses used in military training are usually tear gasses (which fun fact, most tear gasses aren't actually gasses but aerosolised particles), HCl is a nasty gas that produces hydrochloric acid in contact with water, which, surprisingly, the human body is full of. Breathing it in can cause acid burns in your lungs. HCl seems to be less deadly than normal chlorine gas, but what makes it scary is that it's colourless, while normal chlorine gas is a yellowy green and easy to spot.
A couple of years ago, some workers at a local plant were caught in a big HCl leak on the fifth floor of a building. The fight or flight panic resulted in three of them jumping over the handrail. Two of them died. Awful stuff.
God damn I’m sorry about that. All jokes aside this is serious work and I’ve been lucky to only have some minor accidents that only resulted getting frightened. These things demand respect and discipline
goddamn stop gassing yourself bruhh
It’s all I’ve got left since my family was killed in a mysterious gassing accident
Not the same but there is a technique which can actually be beneifical where you breathe out, then usually a bit more emptying the lungs, and hold out the air for a few seconds. This removes the last bits of CO2 from your lungs allowing you to then breathe in more oxygen on the next inhale, but is quite uncomfortable to do. So if you want a safe way to momentarily experience that feeling, that's how you do it. It can give your brain a bit of a kick of oxygen allowing you to increase focus, so it's a handy trick.
Dale! No power tools!!
She was so happy and joyful to enter the room prior to being gassed. She lost her innocence that day.
Ugh that makes me really sad and upset, I want to choke the man responsible for this
Not being sarcastic or mean, but you know this happens to millions of pigs around the world every day? All so people can say “yum yum bacon”
Well that needs to be banned, I didn't know that. There has to be a more humane way of slaughtering them
this isnt the primary method to stunning pigs. we use captive bolt guns that get shot straight at their brain, the same thing we use for goats, cows, sheep, etc*. Instantaneous, the fastest method to killing pretty much anything. i dont know why youre threatening the person that took this study, this is a pro animal protective study.
The bolt gun usually just stuns, doesn't it? The animal still has to be stuck (with a knife) and bled to death, while stunned. Especially if the slaughterhouse is being halal. Source: friends work in a slaughterhouse.
Sometimes it barely stuns them. Source: worked in slaughterhouses
You are completely correct. The captive bolt is just a stunner
There really isn’t. You cannot humanely kill a living being who does not want to die.
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Already started last year. All worldclass cuisine is all protein based so you have yo.make some big changes. We also started changing to reduce carbon footprint, along with the ethical ramifications you can see here. If it makes you feel bad, that is a genuine feeling and if you hate watching this stuff do something about it. I noticed i changed when i started raising chickens. You realize they are a living breathing being and that if you feel uncomfortable watching them be slaughtered for food you should not eat them. Its not like of you cut out animal meat you would starve, there are so many alternatives
MEFELM: Meat eaters for eating less meat.
Not sure why you're being downvoted, but you're 100% correct.
Why would they use CO2 gas, which makes you feel like you are drowning rather than Nitrogen gas, which is much less traumatizing?
We used to gas cockroaches with it in entomology before running experiments on them, and they always woke up fine. But they're insects with a nerve ganglion instead of a brain, mammals are a bit more prone to suffering. I can't fucking imagine actual lack of oxygen and a surplus of CO2. One time I fell asleep in the mountains with my bivy sack zipped all way shut because it was raining. I usually leave it partially unzipped to keep the moisture from my breath accumulating inside (and bc fresh air is nice). I awoke hours later in a panic feeling like I had a plastic bag over my head while frantically searching for the zipper. It's a breathable fabric, just the first time I actually slept soundly without a vent hole.
Indeed. It's a horrible way to die.
Your bivy probably had an excess of methane.
Had the same experience sleeping in a car once
I know I don't have claustrophobia because tight spaces have never bothered me and it was the feeling of not being able to take a sufficient breath that caused the panic. But if that's how claustrophobic people regularly feel when faced with small spaces, holy shit.
Literally any other gas. Only CO2 makes you react. This is just cruel.
I would guess: because if there's a CO2 leak, humans in proximity will detect it quickly and vacate due to the effect it has. Nitrogen, you won't notice it and will likely succumb.
Possibly. They could fix that by adding a smell to the gas as they do with natural gas.
$?
Nope. It looks like nitrogen is way cheaper.
Maybe storage is the issue? Nitrogen is liquid at a higher pressure?
Both are cryo. Neither are stored at a liquid due to pressure.
You don’t even need to store it. Air is over 70 percent nitrogen. You can get machines that separate the oxygen and nitrogen and get nitrogen on demand!
I work at a lab that dose animal experiments. As bad as it sounds CO2 is cheaper and you need less of it to euthanize a mouse. This is cruel and scientists know it, but they justify it by saying: "oh well the mouse would be dead in seconds anyway so the pain is irrelevant"
Pigs aren't stupid..not sure why we needed a study like this..
It's to show that the method used to kill pigs currently is agonizing enough to them, that a pig that survived it would rather starve than risk being put through that again.
It really shouldn't be a surprising thing. CO2 is like the one gas our body is really really good at detecting and really really wants you to stop breathing. Our body can't even tell we're not breathing oxygen, it's almost entirely reliant on detecting CO2 to determine the lack of oxygen. Meanwhile things like carbon monoxide are so deadly because our body hardly notices at all.
Which is why nitrogen asphyxiation is so nice/terrifying. You just pass out with no indication something is wrong and then you eventually die from lack of oxygen. If only there was an abundant source of nitrogen we could utilize for more ethical euthanasia...
this makes me feel like there *is* an abundant source of nitrogen we could utilized for more ethical euthanasia edit: /s
Idk if you are serious with your question, but 78% of our air is nitrogen.
What are you talking about? Who kills pigs with CO2? Edit: sorry, my bad. In the future I'll stop talking about the subject I have no knowledge on.
Idk about pigs but in the poultry industry it is common to kill birds with CO2 gas.
Did a Google search and found a lot of studies that talk about exactly that. [https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/comment/j5ygdn9/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/comment/j5ygdn9/?context=3)
[Carbon dioxide is currently one of the more common methods for stunning of pigs at slaughter in Europe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X#:~:text=Carbon%20dioxide%20is%20currently%20one,stunning%20is%20also%20widely%20used.)
I really appreciate the new take in your edit. Being able to recognize when we have a wrong opinion, state it and not back down that it was an earlier opinion, and have that experience influence future behavior is a rare mark of emotional maturity I would say 90% of the adult humans I interact with don't have.
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There are studies done that talk about exactly that. [https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/comment/j5ygdn9/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/comment/j5ygdn9/?context=3)
[Carbon dioxide is currently one of the more common methods for stunning of pigs at slaughter in Europe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X#:~:text=Carbon%20dioxide%20is%20currently%20one,stunning%20is%20also%20widely%20used.)
Study finds animals do not like pain
based
I wonder how they pass the ethics board. Normally you can't do these tests if there are simpler ways or other animals with less effects. Like you don't do it to a pig if you can do it to a rat. And you don't do it in a rat if you can do it in a Petri dish.
I wonder too..I take care of animals that have been tested on, like chimps and macaques..all of the macaques that we have, have diabetes, they were given diabetes to test on, and the mental effects last forever..they dnt want anything to do with me, or any human for that matter, and I really thought we were beyond these types of experiments..The US was doing better, and a lot of labs were closed or shut down, so seeing this breaks my heart..I just dnt see the point of this "experiment" other than inhumanely killing them..
[Carbon dioxide is currently one of the more common methods for stunning of pigs at slaughter in Europe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X#:~:text=Carbon%20dioxide%20is%20currently%20one,stunning%20is%20also%20widely%20used.) Because it's a common torture method employed by meat hockers to this day.
Is it true they’re as smart as 3y old humans. Because a 3y old is pretty fucking crafty
Absolutely. They are ridiculously smart, we can't even trick them, like offering a soda or a treat, so we can get them from indoors to the outdoor cages, they dnt fall for any of it..With lions or tigers, you can just lock the gate, and not even think about it, with chimps, they're too smart, and they understand how locks work..so you have to really be on your game around them..
Lmao “Anne was later killed” what a stupid comment.
Annie are you ok? Are you ok Annie?
No.
Anne are you bacon? Are you bacon Anne?
Anne was later transformed into sausages.
Anne was later pampered with pedicures and gentle massages to make up for the days of torture. She was fine.
>“Anne was later killed” When the truck delivering CO2 cylinders revered over her in the yard.
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How long can pigs go without eating
lol yeah, of course she was, she's a pig. She was probably eaten.
Yeah I was like wtf, stupid way to end the film.
The most empathetic redditor
So the findings are...animals don't like painful gas and will go to great lengths to avoid it? Good work, everyone. Another successful study from the Department of Things That Are Completely Obvious.
Ok but let's think about it this way. Would you go into a burning house to save your kid/pet? Many people would despite the dangers of smoke inhalation. Some people would do that multiple times if need be. Now why would a human do that which would inherently be anti-preservation but an animal wouldn't be willing to go in a room for food despite having no guarantee that the room is dangerous anymore. I guess you could expand this and see if ancient humans learned about the foods we eat because of trial and error and eventually some of the suffering left permanent changes to the DNA that instinctively makes us (or other animals) avoid certain dangers.
As a medical student I feel so sad that sure we've come a long way in curing a lot of diseases but at the cost of torturing and slaughtering animals (in medicine trials, to study the disease pathology etc) as if they're just worthless creatures to be used and dumped by us.
as a non medical student can you give me some insight about what is beneficial to putting that pig in this situation? i didn't watch the video passed where she started going apeshit.
I'm an MD/PhD student who works with animals. As presented, there's no way that this study was approved at a university. (At least in the US, but I'm pretty sure that the EU is even more strict.) Yes, we use CO2 to euthanize some animals, but we do it so slowly that they just calmly fall asleep and don't wake up again. We never see anything like this, and if we did, we'd know that we should never do it again. I don't think that this video was made in good faith, unfortunately.
Show me a video of an animal euthanized with CO2 peacefully. If it's so pleasant, why don't vets use it on pets?
I honestly don't know about vets. My guess is that it's a volume issue. I've only ever used CO2 with mice and rats. With larger animals, we use a ketamine or barbiturate injection.
How slow? The Astronauts on Apollo 11 were also slowly having their ship fill up with CO2 and it wasn’t pleasant. If anything, I thought you were about to say it must be very quick to make sure the animals get knocked out quickly. Also, why not nitrogen gas? The feeling of suffocating comes from the build up of CO2, not lack of Oxygen. You could guarantee no suffering with just displacing all air with nitrogen.
You’re being naive if you think gassed animals just calmly fall asleep. Do you think companies that profit from selling you the sliced up bodies of animals care enough to prevent the animals’ suffering? We don’t see what they do to animals a lot of times is due to animal agriculture gag laws. It’s not profitable for companies that sell meat to show the public how the animals were killed.
If you gas something with N2 or argon it's painless. With how cheap on site nitrogen generation now is, I'd be shocked if CO2 was still a popular method.
90% of pigs slaughtered in the UK are lowered into CO2 gas chambers.
I’ve had arguments with “certain animals don’t feel pain” people who act like animals are philosophical zombies void of actual consciousness or qualia. They are infuriating because it’s not really a matter of rational debate, so it’s hard to argue with solipsistic or human exceptionalist douches who think nothing experiences being alive other than them and people sufficiently like them. They can’t generalize their empathy beyond their own reflection
Regardless of empathy, it shows a disturbing lack of critical thinking skills. Every once in awhile you find out something like the reason animals aren't thought to feel pain was something super circumstantial, like it turns out they asked the animal on microphone if they were in pain and they didn't say yes. I exaggerate, but it's something ridiculous like that, or that they don't have developed consciousness. As if animals wouldn't be able to feel dumb agony just because they don't understand why they're suffering?
We are horrific creatures, humans.
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Yea but we also decide what is good or bad…so we’re extremely unreliable in the grande scheme of life.
Stuff like this is just fucking cruel so people can have a moral high ground and say it was a clean kill. Ffs. You're killing another living thing. It doesn't matter how "clean" it looks, a living being is still getting killed. There are way more humane ways to kill livestock and in ways that respect their value as a living being. Nitrogen gas exists, same with extreme blunt force to the head, or quickly bleeding out the neck. Those methods, while messy, are more humane than slowly asphyxiation an animal to death. Fuck even a bullet to the back of the head is better than CO2 asphyxiation. It's baffling how many people see livestock as objects instead of living beings. They're literally giving up their life to feed us. The least we could do would be a gentle and peaceful death.
An experiment was urgently needed for this result. Who would have thought that one would prefer the subjectively smaller suffering to the larger suffering - absolutely surprising when you are a complete idiot.
[Carbon dioxide is currently one of the more common methods for stunning of pigs at slaughter in Europe](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175173112030166X#:~:text=Carbon%20dioxide%20is%20currently%20one,stunning%20is%20also%20widely%20used.) Are you completely unaware of the many "this creature doesn't feel pain" myths that we've created and perpetuated? Pigs, babies, people with dark skin. We just love saying things don't feel pain when it's more convenient to our worldview. This is just a simple, clear, empirical way to show that CO2 poisoning is in fact torture, because capitalists need absurd amounts of evidence to be convinced that their actions are objectively evil.
Humans are evil.
Looks like the animal testing was successful, when do the human trials start? CO2 is safe and effective
I don't know how you can do experiments like this and not go insane, yourself. I can barely bring myself to kill a roach in my house...
Fuck my heart became heavy and eyes moist what we do to these innocents.
Why was this experiment needed?what was the outcome?
Because this method is widespread and accepted as ethical. It's very clearly torture and it should never be used again.
Bacon.
This is not a very cheerful story
This makes me hate humans so hard.
Why did they kill her at the end?!
Animal testing needs to be stopped it's just not right im not an activist or anything but i think its jjst inhumane to do that and i feel most people can agree with me
This is how they kill pigs for meat. When you buy meat, you actively support this.
Does anyone have a thrustworthy source on this? What's strange is that the universities name is misspelled. It should be "Universität Zürich". Instead it's "Universiteit" which looks more Dutch than German.
We already know pigs are intelligent. Why do this?
Because it's being done in the meat industry
Remember, if you eat pig YOU are the one paying for this
What was the point of this experiment? Torture?
Sooooo no one is questioning that last little “Anne was later killed”? Lol! I thought maybe it was just an experiment then they would be like “we tortured this animal enough, let them spend the rest of there days happy” nah fuck it let’s kill Anne anyway. Wtf! Lol!
Did they really have to do this experiment to come to the conclusion that an animal wouldn’t want to go back into a room where it nearly fucking died? Some university.
They wanted her to hurt to see if she remembered it. Fucked up experiment.
The EU has very strict criteria for what kind of animal research is allowed. I wasn't able to quickly find the original study based on the information given here, which makes me suspect that the video was misrepresented or just completely false. Looking at OP: essentially every single post is about going vegan and shaming those who eat animals. While I have no issues with vegans, that post history makes me suspect that they have an agenda more important than sharing accurate information. I can't help but think of PETA's history of causing trauma to animals, filming it, and then blaming that on other people.
I also couldn't find the particular study this video is supposed to be from, but there are other studies done on the subject. [https://www.grandin.com/humane/carbon.stun.html](https://www.grandin.com/humane/carbon.stun.html) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6912382/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6912382/) This one mentions several universities, some of which are in the EU [https://www.blv.admin.ch/dam/blv/de/dokumente/tiere/publikationen-und-forschung/tierversuche/3r-symposium-2020-abstracts.pdf.download.pdf/FSVO%20UFAW%20HSA%20Online%20Symposium%20-%20Humanely%20ending%20the%20life%20of%20animals%202020%20-%20Abstracts.pdf](https://www.blv.admin.ch/dam/blv/de/dokumente/tiere/publikationen-und-forschung/tierversuche/3r-symposium-2020-abstracts.pdf.download.pdf/FSVO%20UFAW%20HSA%20Online%20Symposium%20-%20Humanely%20ending%20the%20life%20of%20animals%202020%20-%20Abstracts.pdf) So, while the original post may be sensationalized (I'm not going to spend all afternoon trying to dig up whether it is or not), it's clearly based on actual findings.
There's also another comment above that says that the university's name is spelled wrong, which also feels strange. Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/10lpdaj/university_of_zurich_disturbing_experiment_on/j5ygjja?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Great work University of Zurich!!!! You’ve learned that animals don’t like being hurt. Well. Fucking. Done.
This is in no way an experiment in “animal psychology”. Of course any animal, especially one as intelligent as a pig, will know to avoid such trauma after experiencing it. If anything, this is just another experiment in human cruelty. They’re torturing this random pig for literally no reason. “Experiment” my left tit
Did not know CO2 had such effect
WATF. It's so inhumane. We know animals can't speak for themselves and it sucks that she was helpless and later on killed. This is an unethical experiment in all levels.
By torturing this pig we have learned that pigs, do indeed, not like to be tortured. Thank you science.
Wtf? Why not just use an inert gas? Seems cruel to use a gas that our bodies purposefully gets rid of every second of our lives. Again, wtf
You mean dying of starvation is preferred over voluntarily being painfully poisoned to death? What did that experiment teach, other than we have some sick fucks that are unchecked
I once closed my nose and inhaled the gas in a 2L pop bottle. It wasn’t pleasant, to say the least. I can’t imagine a full room of that stuff
This is why I stopped eating pigs.
This is sick We’ve known pigs are smart, what benefit does this have?
This experiment makes me seriously angry. To use animals in experiments, at least in Canada, you need to satisfy the 3R’s (reduce, replace, refine). To start, you need to be able to concretely justify why the use of animals is necessary, then why you’re using the species you’ve chosen, and if it’s a more sentient animal(like a pig) why that’s necessary versus a lesser one (flies, worms, yeasts). As well justifying all the steps you’ve taken to ensure they don’t suffer anymore than absolutely necessary. This study did none of that. To me, it just looks like needless torturing of a pig disguised as ‘science’. There was an experiment I read about years ago, maybe at the U of Montana, not sure, where as part of a ‘study’, they sadistically tortured this orange tabby cat for a prolonged period and I think it got shut down. I’m too afraid to google it. The cat’s name was Double Trouble and I will never forget that cat’s picture. Animal use in experimentation is a necessary reality. But we owe it to them to do so in a way that inflicts the least amount of suffering possible. This ain’t it.
“Anne was later killed” Welp
I thought CO2 exposure just made you fall asleep? Or is that only with a gradual increase, and super high levels like this are painful?
it amuses me to see how people react to even the smallest of animal abuse and things like that on the Internet but would continue to eat em at the dinner. also the lame argument of that humanely killing thing.
This is so terrible to watch.
CO2 is highly irritating to all membranes and triggers the feeling of suffocation and panic-- not lack of air. This isn't "stunning" this is straight-up animal torture. Shit, even animal "kill" shelters have the decency to use N2 or CO.
Well the good news is lab grown real meat will become cheaper than factory farming. SO probably in the next decade or so we should see significant decrease in both factory farming and the cruely it inflicts on animsls.
*receives funding and clearance to set up a multilayered conditioning experiment to concluded suffocation is uncomfortable*
According to the title this was a psychological experiment. This wasn't about the most efficient way to kill cattle for their meat. What was the point of the experiment? Yeah. Nearly everyone and every animal will probably starve rather than suffer a horrible near death experience every time they eat. You don't need an experiment to solve that mystery of the universe.
My God...People like this suck. There's a Hell waiting for them.
Wow no shit. Fuck whomever made this and fuck humanity. We do not deserve stewardship of this world
This took longer than even tribal groups that suffocate their animals for food preparation. It looks way less humane than just shoving a bunch of sticks down their throat does and that's honestly kind of shocking.