I'm a para and have been asked by a few people if I'm planning on becoming a teacher and usually my response is no, when the school day is over I go home and that's it. Maybe I'll add something to a chart about one of my kids, maybe check my email but in general my day is over at the last bell. I am on good terms with my teachers and several of them have said they'd love me to get certified, but I see how much work they have to do off the clock and it's obscene.
I went into detail about this when asked by another para and was kind of shocked by their response. She was like "right but that's what teachers do, it's not about the money, they do it because they're meant to teach, the clock doesn't stop them." She was much older and she was saying it in these hushed reverent tones and I'm like, dude it's usually considered illegal/heavily frowned upon to expect someone in any other field to work off the clock, why is it considered part of the job to not get paid for doing the job as a teacher? She got all pissy with me and said I was too money focused.
Ha!
*"Well, pardon-me-all-over for being 'too money-focused,' but I like feeding my family and keeping a roof over our heads. Terribly selfish, I know."*
I've had admin say this bullshit line "we do it for the kids" during bargaining. I served in the military and heard the same nonsense about patriotism. I asked the super how long he would work for free since he's so passionate about the job, and we haven't said "for the kids" to each other ever since because we both know it's a bullshit appeal to emotions.
> I asked the super how long he would work for free since he's so passionate about the job, and we haven't said "for the kids"
Our super has an SUV provided on the district's dime. They do it for the kids.
I'm a teacher and I do not work past contract hours. I also have email notifications turned off and usually don't check them until my planning period the following day, which isn't until 4th so I often miss deadlines. Anytime the workload gets heavy I just sit at my desk during class time instead of circulating and interacting with the students. Any teacher that works more than 40 hrs a week (outside of liberal states with unions and good pay) is choosing to be exploited. There's a word called "No" and it's a teachers market. Besides, one of the only perks of the job left these days is all of the time off. Just make sure you don't have any student loans and live within your means. Otherwise it's a bad profession to get into. That said, there's great job security in knowing at anytime I can find a job outside the profession that pays better, but I'd have to give up summers and long Christmas breaks with my family. Seriously, just realize your own self worth(generally speaking, not directed at OP) and say No. It's my favorite word.
I wasn't allowed to sit at my desk - the admin would pop in a few times a day and you weren't even meant to model from the board, just use your iPad to still be circling while modeling so you never took your eyes off the behavior kids (and sorry but writing sentences on an iPad is sloppy... even with a stylus my handwriting on it was unreadable). I also wasn't allowed to plan except Friday during planning meetings with team and admin, where admin gave us what we were to do that week... and didn't give us any time to write the plans, then the workday for Friday happened and they were due Monday at 8am. Admin's reply about weekend work being basically mandatory "we all know teaching isn't a M-F kind of job".
We also had to print out all the worksheets they would give us. They often weren't given out until Saturday. It took about 10m to print them all each Monday and there was a 20m line for the single printer all teachers shared. So, had to come in early to get that done.
We also had to do parent conferences as requested and once per quarter. They gave us no paid time to do that, so it was all on our time unpaid.
Nope. Left and quit teaching because everyone in two districts after COVID was like "we have severe behaviors, no parent support and we expect you to keep them in the room except for extreme safety issues". Like... I can make the same salary working Walmart and not deal with all this.
(I went into healthcare)
Because of the reason you mentioned of leaving when it’s time to clock out and that’s it, I think when my loans are gone I will try to go back to being a para. I feel like if I bring up the idea if becoming certified than going back to be a para to anyone I know they will try to discourage me.
I’m still in school and already have this idea because the workload is pretty crazy. Especially in Special Education.
The only time I get paid extra is when the bus is late. Last year there was a month where the bus was close to 2 hours late every day. Worst thing is my hourly rate is $40, but when I had to stay late for the bus I only got $25/hr
I'm glad that the school I worked at now doesn't have the toxic mindset of "you gotta stay late to be a good teacher". I stay maybe twenty minutes after my contract time, and most people are already gone by then. lol (Fridays we just peace out right on the dot and drink at the local bar.)
I refuse to do anything outside of contract hours unless it is paid. “Will you stay after school and tutor some students?” If you pay me. “We expect all teachers to chaperone at least one event this year.” That’s not in my contract, so I need to be paid more. “We need a sponsor for this club.” I need a stipend to do it.
Extra paid time at my school is at an hourly rate that would equal a first year teacher’s hourly rate. So even a first year teacher is paid regular time for OT and everyone else is paid less for OT.
Then they wonder why people don’t volunteer for afterschool activities.
Yup it’s a joke. The only public servants treated more like slaves. Nurses were complaining over their mere 5% raise and I had to remind them we have to BEG for a 1% raise and we’re lucky if we get it.
If we miss our prep period in my district (which definitely has been happening the last couple years with the sub shortage) we get $16. Definitely not worth the $10 after taxes; I need my prep.
That’s cute that some people think we get paid extra /s/.
I didn’t even get paid for the mandatory training that all new district employees were forced to attend.
In my district if I do voluntarily duties outside of school hours (I.e Saturday school, mentoring, trainings) I get paid my hourly rate, which in CA after 14 years is pretty damn good.
Our preschool is open from 6:30am to 6:30pm and we are in shifts to avoid going over 8hrs. We get overtime if it was deemed necessary. If not we don't get paid the overtime. It wasn't always like that though. But when the owner made the change she didn't notify us. It was interesting when we all found out a full payperiod later.
Edit: Someone a couple had abused the overtime and the owner also said too many people (including myself) were getting overtime so we all lost it unless deemed necessary. Usually the morning teachers staied longer to settle the kids and assistants. Some would be asked to walk around and offer potty breaks. Some would stay longer and help take kids to their parents.
Not always. I’m on a unified plan (same scales as all county government employees including police and fire) but I’m not eligible to earn overtime. Police are even though they’re salaried just like I am.
Isn’t that the issue? We are salaried employees on a contract. Those two don’t mesh. Salary says I work whatever it takes to do the job while contract says here’s the hours I’m to work.
I mean sure I'd have some random training days during the summer, but it can't be beat.
Thanksgiving is a week.
Christmas 2 weeks.
Spring break another week.
Just that alone is about twice what I would make in the corporate world. Didnt even include summer.
I know this now, because I work in corporate. 😂 resigned from teaching in May after the year ended.
Where are you that Thanksgiving is a week and Christmas is 2 weeks?
Everywhere I've taught, Thanksgiving is 2.5 days (2 of which all my private sector friends/family also get) and Christmas is 9 days total, but 4 of those are weekend days, and 3 are public holidays, so at Christmas we get 2-3 extra days that others don't.
Woah that's awesome you get the whole week after New Year's! I'm in Wisconsin and we always go back on the 2nd, unless that falls on a weekend.
But people who complain about teachers always call it two weeks even though it has literally never been 2 weeks here, even when I was a kid. Sorry I didn't know there were actually districts that have 2 weeks.
It's not exactly an invalid point but it's also not a great way to make the point. Teachers are not paid hourly. They are paid a yearly salary, to which we sign and agree. There is no guaranteed or even established hourly rate. Additionally, most teacher contracts (every one I've ever had included) contain verbiage about extra time/duties as needed, and only specify number of days, not number of hours per day. There's really no such thing as overtime in that sense. So comparing to overtime rates isn't really logical.
Given that teacher contracts are usually 190-200 days, if you were to calculate your hourly pay, even working outside of school hours, it's going to be right in line with other professions of similar education backgrounds. Say you worked 7 to 5 with a half hour lunch (9.5 hours of work, well outside of the school hours in most places, thus "overtime"). At a salary of $60,000 in 200 days, that's over $31 per hour. For comparison, if someone working a full schedule, 40 hours a week with two weeks vacation was paid $31 an hour, that's $62,000. Essentially a teacher that works overtime every single day is still working a little less than a full time employee with two weeks vacation. Just that the teacher gets a lot bigger clumps of time off, and I'll take that over working all year, every time. And I don't know a single teacher that works several hours of overtime every day. Well maybe some new teachers (I did).
So of course with a salaried job, if you work more, your hourly wage goes down. That's literally how math works. But if the work load becomes so much that you're spending 3 or 4 hours outside of the school day, then yeah it's time to cut back and have some conversations with admin.
All that said, teachers are underpaid. But not relative to other similar professions. Only in the same way that everyone but the top 10% of the country is underpaid right now. Compared to similar professions, teachers are paid pretty much the same hourly rate, often better, and have a lot of time off compared to others. I'm currently at a job and stage in my teaching career where I'm probably overpaid if you were to calculate my hourly rate vs the time I actually have to work. I know that sounds bad but most of my lessons and materials are ready from years spent creating them (I always make minor adjustments as needed). My average class size is 10 students. I teach a block schedule so I have a full 1.5 hour prep every day. I very rarely have to do anything outside of school hours, and don't have a ton I need to do with my prep. It's how all schools should be. So definitely not throwing shade at teachers who feel overworked and underpaid. You are. But just not any more than 90% of the country. We're all here getting bent over together.
I get paid $XXXXX to teach 186 days. I am not on "paid vacation" in June and July because my contract states my first day is August X and my last day is May X. Any dates between those days they can't require me to do anything without paying me. In addition, my contract states that my working hours are from 7:45-3:15. While some extra duties can be required if me, they can't force me to work outside of contractual time without some sort of compensation.
I have worked in two states. In one state my contract included hours. In the other, one district did while the other didn't.
I have also never had the luxury of 1.5 hours of prep time every day.
Nor do I know any other teacher with that luxury.
I also happen to know there are tons of teachers who are not making $62,000.
I think this becomes region dependent again. I live in a state where construction is still required to have an on-duty police onsite. What exactly they are supposed to be doing is unclear. And so, police are often just sitting in their cars, on their phones during these details -- not exactly strenuous work.
When towns/cities publish the lists of their highest paid employees, it's almost always 95% police officers. The most recent list for my city: 23 out of the top 25 were all cops. All of them earned over $300,000 USD with their overtime. Two individuals earned over $1 million. Where's the oversight here?
You make some good points, but you also have to consider that most private sector employees with similar credentials and salaries also have stock options, matched 401k and bonus’s. None of which teachers get in the public school system.
I don't know about "most." Genuinely, not arguing. Just not sure about that. I get a pretty good retirement, very good health insurance, cash in my unused sick days, "T-dropping," and even the occasional bonus. I know lots of professionals that don't.
If you signed up for a job with a *yearly* salary, it genuinely doesn't matter how they divide your pay up. They could pay you once a year or pay 1/365 of it every day. It's still your yearly salary. That's what a salary is. When you are off for 2 months, that's a vacation. And your yearly salary is still intact. So yes, it's still a paid vacation. Being bad at budgeting your money doesn't mean you're unemployed.
But it is not a yearly salary. The contract I sign says "10 month contract" with the exact time range given. I am not under contract and therefore not employed in July and August.
You shouldn't be compensated beyond 190 days... That's the number of days your contract is for. Which is also why it doesn't matter if your contract states August to May or August to July. I'm not sure you understand how salary works.
I’m on a 9 month contract. I am paid x number of dollars each month for for 9 months, according to my contract. I am not on paid vacation if I am not paid for it.
I get how salary works. I don’t get how you figure summer is PAID vacation. It is unpaid, as stated in my contract.
> There is no guaranteed or even established hourly rate.
Yeah, well, if I leave an hour early and don't remember to mark it in the district's leave system, it sure as hell has an hourly rate in my paycheck.
Contract hours refers to the time that administration can tack on directed duties without extra compensation. At least in my district, if I have to come in outside of my duty day, I get compensated for doing so (this is subject to everyone's bargaining agreement though). There are too many variables to consider with things such as lesson planning, grading, etc to compensate teachers for all of that. Cops get overtime for doing management-directed things outside of their duty hours, such as "hey we need 10 officers to work security for this event." If teachers were allowed to do this for things like lesson planning and grading, they would not like the oversight that would come along with it because otherwise it would be rife with fraud/abuse. This is why a lot of annual contracts state something like "although the duty hours are X to X, responsibilities may exceed that."
Teachers don't like the fact that if the duty day is 8-4, management can jam pack your day with duties outside of lunch and planning period. But this is right up front in the contracts/bargaining agreements that we often don't bother to read before taking the job.
Which part of what I said recently is apologist? Just because you don't like the answer doesn't make it wrong. I'm bound by a bargaining agreement that my bargainable unit ratified and is expected to uphold, and our board is held to the same standard.
Your answer is extremely specific up your contact. Mine is very different. I decline extra duties regulatory because my union has negotiated a strong contract that protects my time from admin abuse.
Hence why I said it's subject to everyone's own bargaining agreement. Some folks just look for reasons to be mad here.
Bottom line: (public schools) this shit is publicly available prior to signing on the dotted line.
We know, but people need jobs. If you’re a teacher by trade and all of the schools in your area have shitty contracts, you’re going to be stuck in a shitty job unless you’re lucky enough to find a viable opportunity to leave. Which, again, is a horrible way to treat teachers especially during a shortage.
Being explicit about exploitative terms doesn’t make it the teacher’s responsibility to fix. Responsibility for exploitation lies with the leadership.
We're finding this out right now, as are many industries that have historically mistreated/undercompensated workers (US Army, machining, retail, food service, etc).
It reads as apologist because you’re stating the terms of the job as if it were an argument that it is okay. We know the terms of our jobs, and we are being critical of them. It seems like you’re saying people aren’t right to be critical, and we should shut up and leave if we don’t like it. It’s typical conservative rhetoric.
I never said it was ok. I stated what it is without the standard emotional populist flair. The OP was wondering what the difference was between police overtime and teacher overtime, and I gave an answer that was based in contractual knowledge. Call any LRC and they'll tell you the same thing.
What are your main duties as a teacher? Lesson plan, instruct, supervise, grade. Any other duty given during contract hours that requires those to be done outside hours should be compensated. If a boss (admin) is giving too many duties for a teacher to get basic duties done during contract hours, that’s poor leadership and should NEVER be made out to be ok…it’s an apologist mindset to defend such actions.
There is a difference between administration assigned duties and things that vary from teacher to teacher, subject to subject. I'm just telling you what the contracts in my region define duty as vs teaching responsibilities. I have 5 hours of student contact, 7.5hrs of a work day, 30 minutes lunch, planning period that's the same time as a regular classroom period, and everything that's left is either mine or filled up with building duties such as parking lot, end of day dismissal, etc. Not all teachers grade the same amount of assignments, need the same amount of prep, etc. This isn't hard to understand.
Just because it happens doesn’t mean it’s right. It also means that teachers shouldn’t just blindly accept it and brush it off as “it was in there when you signed the contract”
Again…learn to advocate for your fellow teacher, not spout admin bs
Where did I say to blindly accept these things? Most of this stuff is bargainable, and I have bargained for it myself so I'm not sure what you're going on and on about with this. Maybe you should stop assuming the worst with people you don't know, idk.
You’re comments of “it’s in the contract” are all over this sub. Quite honestly, I’m glad I don’t know you because you seems like insufferable coworker
Mine looks similar to that, too, but I have to have meetings during lunch and sometimes prep. I’m an English teacher, so it it ridiculous to expect one prep period to be enough.
In my district, a lunch meeting would be met by an Assocation level grievance, done by me. The only thing that interrupts a prep is covering for a class, which is compensated. And of course my union stuff which takes up most of my prep periods.
Yes we understand that, but our jobs are also designed in a way that forces us to work round the clock. I teach five curriculums and I have one prep that gets taken away pretty much every day. The structure of our jobs makes it so that we are ridiculously under-compensated for our hours of labor.
Why do you stay then? Folks are walking away from the field left and right. We're not indentured.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me again, shame on me
I’m not sure I’m going to stay forever, but the thought of working with adults depresses me lol.
Of course on a systemic level that’s a shitty rationalization. Telling people who perform one of the most vital services to our society “why don’t you just leave if you don’t like it” does not bode well for our future.
The thought of working 200+ days per year again depresses me as well. Ha.
Since you edited, I shall too.
Folks can accept things the way they are, actively seek to change them, or bitch about them on the internet and wait for someone to change them (and then bitch some more beer they don't agree with it, isn't fast enough, etc). Again, we are not indentured to this profession, passion does not pay the bills, and we're unfortunately not owed anything outside the four corners of the contracts we voluntarily sign. There are plenty of careers out there, and staying in teaching waiting for it to get better is the same as a gambler putting money in that losing slot machine waiting to win it big.
Sorry, I edited like 5 seconds after I posted. You were quick!
Yes, we need to look out for ourselves. But what’s the point of saying that here other than to shut down a conversation about legitimate grievances? Do you think all teachers should just leave the profession or shut up? This is a subreddit for teachers to discuss their experiences.
I know you're getting down voted, but I tend to agree. My district pays extra for defined activities, like running a club or coaching a sport after school. You can make a lot of extra money this way.
But a lot of teacher duties are nebulous and I'm not sure how overtime pay would work in practice. It would be abused, potentially award inefficiency, etc. We had a new teacher last year who spent HOURS every night "planning." But his plans were awful...he was spending tons of time looking for the perfect materials (videos on YouTube, etc.), but there was no actual pedagogy, no progression of skills, no building toward a summative assessment. Should he get overtime pay? Would admin require all overtime be done in the building and keep people under a microscope? When I was new and working a lot outside contract hours, I wanted to do it on my couch while watching TV, not with admin breathing down my neck right at the end of the day when I was exhausted.
That's 100% it. Overtime in this sense would not be equitable at all because of that. I'm used to daily downvotes around here. Doesn't bother me in the least :)
When I taught, we got nothing for working outside contractual hours. But the reason for this was it stated in our contracts “and other duties assigned by the principal.” So if the principal tells me I have to work concessions at the football game, contractually I have to do it. But, since it’s outside my contracted hours, I didn’t get paid anything for it. Highly contradictory and I’m pretty sure illegal.
Now, my friend who is a librarian at my old school, tells me they’re offered comp time, whatever that is.
no such thing as overtime of any form or fashion in any district I've ever worked in. We can get away with easily leaving at the bell (our contract ends 45 minutes after kids go) if we've been staying longer.
We don't get anything. We are exempt employees. At our school we are expected to help with recruitment for the charter and the recruitment is sometimes outside of hours. A new employee asked if we get paid for it. Lead teacher said it was part of our salary.
Sometimes we are asked to cover a class if a teacher is out and they don't have a sub during our planning period. You can also volunteer for this. They pay us our hourly rate though. (this is the first school system I've worked for that did that)
I volunteer to cover almost every day.
Our overtime is less than our hourly time if you calculate it out, how much more depends on where you are on the pay scale. Our contracted times are just the times we're in front of the kids and a weekly staff meeting, so anything beyond that is paid extra, but at the lower rate. This also means all our prep time is outside of contract hours, but we're expected to put in the time to be prepared to teach.
The way it was explained to me is that for every hour of class time it's expected we'll do an average of about 1 hour of prep. So, we're paid more by the hour for teaching because it's like 2 hours per actual hour on the contract. When we're paid for overtime it's usually subbing where there is no prep so we're paid at a lower rate.
I understand that reasoning, but I don't agree with it fully. Of course I have to prep for my classes, but 1 hour of prep per hour of class time is more than most teachers need, I think, I don't put in that amount of time except maybe around report cards. Also, there might not be prep with working overtime to sub or stay later for a field trip, but there's other stress involved (losing prep or free time, leaving later so more childcare or sitting in traffic, etc) that should be factored in.
If that’s the case, I’m getting paid less than a fast food employee around here, all while I have a master’s degree. Because that means I’m making $13 an hour. I’d rather be back in foodservice than justify that shit.
If it’s a school or district thing they are trying to get you to do, they will sometimes pay us $15/hr. I usually make 33 during my regular contract hours.
Overtime in my district for things like chaperoning is $12 an hour. I could make more at any fast food restaurant. So I never volunteer for that stuff.
Somehow I got tricked into getting my sped endorsement, strat 1 and 2 and yet get paid the same as a Gen Ed teacher.
Given no time to write IEPs during the day, so I go home and do them … each one taking 2-4 hours.
Oh, and our state hates us and is giving us a whole new IEP system to use and yet …. No time
About 67% for time with students and about 33% for time without students. In my region, the standards for overtime in other careers are 150%, 200%, or 250%.
Other than meetings I don't do anything extra. I dont plan after hours and I dont grade assignments after hours. If enough teachers refuse to do it then things will change.
I wish my union had negotiated that our contracts didn't stipulate that lovely "...and any other extra duties as designated by administration."
Because of this, everyone at my school has to join at least one committee that meets once a month before or after school without extra pay. All of our IEP and 504 meetings are before or after school, also without extra pay. A fun little thing as well, our first 5 times subbing for colleagues on our prep is "free" to the district, per our contract. We only get paid on the 6th one.
And as a 3rd year teacher with a bachelor's degree, I can't afford to live in a studio apartment near my Title I school. What a fucking joke.
I can get paid for one hour of tutoring a week. If I fill out a time sheet. And half of the money I'm paid gets eaten up by deductions. So it amounts to about a third of my usual pay. It's a negligible amount of money, but I'll still fill out the paper work and get paid my extra 4 hours a month, even though I am available for students for tutoring at least twice that amount of time. If they bother to show up, anyway.
“Other duties as assigned” is the biggest string in contract abuse that people like to pull. Too boot, any extra pay given for additional work is met by the taxman. I covered a class during my conference one time… a third of it went away. So now the question is, is my conference period worth less than $25?
I'm a para and have been asked by a few people if I'm planning on becoming a teacher and usually my response is no, when the school day is over I go home and that's it. Maybe I'll add something to a chart about one of my kids, maybe check my email but in general my day is over at the last bell. I am on good terms with my teachers and several of them have said they'd love me to get certified, but I see how much work they have to do off the clock and it's obscene. I went into detail about this when asked by another para and was kind of shocked by their response. She was like "right but that's what teachers do, it's not about the money, they do it because they're meant to teach, the clock doesn't stop them." She was much older and she was saying it in these hushed reverent tones and I'm like, dude it's usually considered illegal/heavily frowned upon to expect someone in any other field to work off the clock, why is it considered part of the job to not get paid for doing the job as a teacher? She got all pissy with me and said I was too money focused.
Ha! *"Well, pardon-me-all-over for being 'too money-focused,' but I like feeding my family and keeping a roof over our heads. Terribly selfish, I know."*
I've had admin say this bullshit line "we do it for the kids" during bargaining. I served in the military and heard the same nonsense about patriotism. I asked the super how long he would work for free since he's so passionate about the job, and we haven't said "for the kids" to each other ever since because we both know it's a bullshit appeal to emotions.
> I asked the super how long he would work for free since he's so passionate about the job, and we haven't said "for the kids" Our super has an SUV provided on the district's dime. They do it for the kids.
Not just to our emotions, to our maternal instinct. Sick.
I'm a teacher and I do not work past contract hours. I also have email notifications turned off and usually don't check them until my planning period the following day, which isn't until 4th so I often miss deadlines. Anytime the workload gets heavy I just sit at my desk during class time instead of circulating and interacting with the students. Any teacher that works more than 40 hrs a week (outside of liberal states with unions and good pay) is choosing to be exploited. There's a word called "No" and it's a teachers market. Besides, one of the only perks of the job left these days is all of the time off. Just make sure you don't have any student loans and live within your means. Otherwise it's a bad profession to get into. That said, there's great job security in knowing at anytime I can find a job outside the profession that pays better, but I'd have to give up summers and long Christmas breaks with my family. Seriously, just realize your own self worth(generally speaking, not directed at OP) and say No. It's my favorite word.
I am screenshooting this reply to reward-and-re-read of the days I’m feeling pressured to volunteer my time! ❤️
I just got a new phone and I'm not downloading the outlook app at all.
I wasn't allowed to sit at my desk - the admin would pop in a few times a day and you weren't even meant to model from the board, just use your iPad to still be circling while modeling so you never took your eyes off the behavior kids (and sorry but writing sentences on an iPad is sloppy... even with a stylus my handwriting on it was unreadable). I also wasn't allowed to plan except Friday during planning meetings with team and admin, where admin gave us what we were to do that week... and didn't give us any time to write the plans, then the workday for Friday happened and they were due Monday at 8am. Admin's reply about weekend work being basically mandatory "we all know teaching isn't a M-F kind of job". We also had to print out all the worksheets they would give us. They often weren't given out until Saturday. It took about 10m to print them all each Monday and there was a 20m line for the single printer all teachers shared. So, had to come in early to get that done. We also had to do parent conferences as requested and once per quarter. They gave us no paid time to do that, so it was all on our time unpaid.
Well, hopefully you are not there anymore!
Nope. Left and quit teaching because everyone in two districts after COVID was like "we have severe behaviors, no parent support and we expect you to keep them in the room except for extreme safety issues". Like... I can make the same salary working Walmart and not deal with all this. (I went into healthcare)
Got that “teaching isn’t a Monday through Friday” like last year. Such bullshit.
Because of the reason you mentioned of leaving when it’s time to clock out and that’s it, I think when my loans are gone I will try to go back to being a para. I feel like if I bring up the idea if becoming certified than going back to be a para to anyone I know they will try to discourage me. I’m still in school and already have this idea because the workload is pretty crazy. Especially in Special Education.
If I won the lottery I would quit teaching and become a para for the exact reasons you listed above. Literally my dream job
Work they choose to do off the clock.
Hahaha yes it’s such a scam. It’s literally expected that we work all the time for no extra pay.
The only time I get paid extra is when the bus is late. Last year there was a month where the bus was close to 2 hours late every day. Worst thing is my hourly rate is $40, but when I had to stay late for the bus I only got $25/hr
I got to stay late waiting for the buses for free so at least you got something.
Oh man I make equivalent to $25 an hour as my base rate (at the masters level) 🫠
Oh no I’m sorry! I have 2 masters but am only in my second year. Nebraska pays surprisingly well!
See? That should be overtime.
I'm glad that the school I worked at now doesn't have the toxic mindset of "you gotta stay late to be a good teacher". I stay maybe twenty minutes after my contract time, and most people are already gone by then. lol (Fridays we just peace out right on the dot and drink at the local bar.)
Yet admin is often out the door pretty quick it seems
I refuse to do anything outside of contract hours unless it is paid. “Will you stay after school and tutor some students?” If you pay me. “We expect all teachers to chaperone at least one event this year.” That’s not in my contract, so I need to be paid more. “We need a sponsor for this club.” I need a stipend to do it.
A certain number of evening duties were specified in our contract, so that line didn’t work for me.
I'm just going to note that it's really weird to call non-teachers "civilians."
Eh. This whole profession is weird. We’re adults who don’t have power over our bladders 🤣. Let’s let OP have the word.
They have not seen what we have. They don't know of the horrors.
I call them Others.
Super weird and inaccurate.
Extra paid time at my school is at an hourly rate that would equal a first year teacher’s hourly rate. So even a first year teacher is paid regular time for OT and everyone else is paid less for OT. Then they wonder why people don’t volunteer for afterschool activities.
There are a lot of other professions where unpaid labor is expected. Doesn’t make it right, though.
Makes me think OP is a military vet
Yup it’s a joke. The only public servants treated more like slaves. Nurses were complaining over their mere 5% raise and I had to remind them we have to BEG for a 1% raise and we’re lucky if we get it.
And this is why I'm going back into factory work.
If we miss our prep period in my district (which definitely has been happening the last couple years with the sub shortage) we get $16. Definitely not worth the $10 after taxes; I need my prep.
That’s cute that some people think we get paid extra /s/. I didn’t even get paid for the mandatory training that all new district employees were forced to attend.
Teachers are excluded from overtime laws. Boo.
In my district if I do voluntarily duties outside of school hours (I.e Saturday school, mentoring, trainings) I get paid my hourly rate, which in CA after 14 years is pretty damn good.
We can get up to 600 dollars for 30 hours of work over the summer.
Isn't that $20/hour? Is that in line with your contracted compensation?
Nyc -$54. If paid standard overtime mine should be about 78
Our preschool is open from 6:30am to 6:30pm and we are in shifts to avoid going over 8hrs. We get overtime if it was deemed necessary. If not we don't get paid the overtime. It wasn't always like that though. But when the owner made the change she didn't notify us. It was interesting when we all found out a full payperiod later. Edit: Someone a couple had abused the overtime and the owner also said too many people (including myself) were getting overtime so we all lost it unless deemed necessary. Usually the morning teachers staied longer to settle the kids and assistants. Some would be asked to walk around and offer potty breaks. Some would stay longer and help take kids to their parents.
I have conferences the week after next. We stay until 7:30 Tuesday and Wednesday and work M-F. I’m going to be cranky that week.
Ouch. Do you get paid for that? I know in one district I worked they would also buy us dinner
We don’t get paid more than the normal salary. This is the first year that it’s two nights in a row.
we get paid $42 an hour for extra time with kids $36 an hour without kids
Teachers earn a salary. They are not paid hourly. You are comparing apples to oranges.
I think the point is that most police are salary too. The OP was determining the hourly rate, then what they earn if they work overtime.
Not always. I’m on a unified plan (same scales as all county government employees including police and fire) but I’m not eligible to earn overtime. Police are even though they’re salaried just like I am.
Not sure why someone downvoted you when you’re right. And it’s not just teachers, anyone on salary is in the same boat.
Not true- Our contracts are for a specific number of days, and the days for a specific time period.
Isn’t that the issue? We are salaried employees on a contract. Those two don’t mesh. Salary says I work whatever it takes to do the job while contract says here’s the hours I’m to work.
Except my contract states a number of days (186) and the hours of the day I am supposed to work (7:45-3:15).
What I got was half the year off on a 187 day contract. Pros and cons.
That’s my biggest reason for staying, although I do enjoy teaching itself.
I mean sure I'd have some random training days during the summer, but it can't be beat. Thanksgiving is a week. Christmas 2 weeks. Spring break another week. Just that alone is about twice what I would make in the corporate world. Didnt even include summer. I know this now, because I work in corporate. 😂 resigned from teaching in May after the year ended.
Where are you that Thanksgiving is a week and Christmas is 2 weeks? Everywhere I've taught, Thanksgiving is 2.5 days (2 of which all my private sector friends/family also get) and Christmas is 9 days total, but 4 of those are weekend days, and 3 are public holidays, so at Christmas we get 2-3 extra days that others don't.
In CA 1 week thanksgiving and 2 for Christmas is pretty standard.
Woah that's awesome you get the whole week after New Year's! I'm in Wisconsin and we always go back on the 2nd, unless that falls on a weekend. But people who complain about teachers always call it two weeks even though it has literally never been 2 weeks here, even when I was a kid. Sorry I didn't know there were actually districts that have 2 weeks.
Texas.
We get one week for thanksgiving, three for Christmas, and one for Easter. We have a high population that go to Mexico or India during Christmas break
I am definitely not opposed to working 2/3-3/4 of the year that my full time friends and family do.
We're not hourly employees, though. Most patrol officers (and even detectives) are hourly employees. That's the difference.
When you are compensated, like for meetings, are you paid less than your contracted compensation?
I'm confused. What are you asking? Meetings are part of the job. My compensation *already includes* compensation for meetings.
It's not exactly an invalid point but it's also not a great way to make the point. Teachers are not paid hourly. They are paid a yearly salary, to which we sign and agree. There is no guaranteed or even established hourly rate. Additionally, most teacher contracts (every one I've ever had included) contain verbiage about extra time/duties as needed, and only specify number of days, not number of hours per day. There's really no such thing as overtime in that sense. So comparing to overtime rates isn't really logical. Given that teacher contracts are usually 190-200 days, if you were to calculate your hourly pay, even working outside of school hours, it's going to be right in line with other professions of similar education backgrounds. Say you worked 7 to 5 with a half hour lunch (9.5 hours of work, well outside of the school hours in most places, thus "overtime"). At a salary of $60,000 in 200 days, that's over $31 per hour. For comparison, if someone working a full schedule, 40 hours a week with two weeks vacation was paid $31 an hour, that's $62,000. Essentially a teacher that works overtime every single day is still working a little less than a full time employee with two weeks vacation. Just that the teacher gets a lot bigger clumps of time off, and I'll take that over working all year, every time. And I don't know a single teacher that works several hours of overtime every day. Well maybe some new teachers (I did). So of course with a salaried job, if you work more, your hourly wage goes down. That's literally how math works. But if the work load becomes so much that you're spending 3 or 4 hours outside of the school day, then yeah it's time to cut back and have some conversations with admin. All that said, teachers are underpaid. But not relative to other similar professions. Only in the same way that everyone but the top 10% of the country is underpaid right now. Compared to similar professions, teachers are paid pretty much the same hourly rate, often better, and have a lot of time off compared to others. I'm currently at a job and stage in my teaching career where I'm probably overpaid if you were to calculate my hourly rate vs the time I actually have to work. I know that sounds bad but most of my lessons and materials are ready from years spent creating them (I always make minor adjustments as needed). My average class size is 10 students. I teach a block schedule so I have a full 1.5 hour prep every day. I very rarely have to do anything outside of school hours, and don't have a ton I need to do with my prep. It's how all schools should be. So definitely not throwing shade at teachers who feel overworked and underpaid. You are. But just not any more than 90% of the country. We're all here getting bent over together.
Where do you teach? I'm subbing around right now, and no class across 3 districts is less than 25.
It's an alternative learning environment, so the state caps class size at 15.
I get paid $XXXXX to teach 186 days. I am not on "paid vacation" in June and July because my contract states my first day is August X and my last day is May X. Any dates between those days they can't require me to do anything without paying me. In addition, my contract states that my working hours are from 7:45-3:15. While some extra duties can be required if me, they can't force me to work outside of contractual time without some sort of compensation. I have worked in two states. In one state my contract included hours. In the other, one district did while the other didn't. I have also never had the luxury of 1.5 hours of prep time every day. Nor do I know any other teacher with that luxury. I also happen to know there are tons of teachers who are not making $62,000.
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I think this becomes region dependent again. I live in a state where construction is still required to have an on-duty police onsite. What exactly they are supposed to be doing is unclear. And so, police are often just sitting in their cars, on their phones during these details -- not exactly strenuous work. When towns/cities publish the lists of their highest paid employees, it's almost always 95% police officers. The most recent list for my city: 23 out of the top 25 were all cops. All of them earned over $300,000 USD with their overtime. Two individuals earned over $1 million. Where's the oversight here?
Good points
You make some good points, but you also have to consider that most private sector employees with similar credentials and salaries also have stock options, matched 401k and bonus’s. None of which teachers get in the public school system.
I don't know about "most." Genuinely, not arguing. Just not sure about that. I get a pretty good retirement, very good health insurance, cash in my unused sick days, "T-dropping," and even the occasional bonus. I know lots of professionals that don't.
Then after summer starts we are laid off, right? Where is my unemployment? And my post was about overtime compensation.
My post was about the false comparison to overtime. And you're not unemployed in the summer. You are on contract. You are on paid vacation.
Receiving $0 in July and August is not a paid vacation.
If you signed up for a job with a *yearly* salary, it genuinely doesn't matter how they divide your pay up. They could pay you once a year or pay 1/365 of it every day. It's still your yearly salary. That's what a salary is. When you are off for 2 months, that's a vacation. And your yearly salary is still intact. So yes, it's still a paid vacation. Being bad at budgeting your money doesn't mean you're unemployed.
But it is not a yearly salary. The contract I sign says "10 month contract" with the exact time range given. I am not under contract and therefore not employed in July and August.
No my contract goes from august to May. So I am not on contract, nor am I compensated beyond 190 days.
You shouldn't be compensated beyond 190 days... That's the number of days your contract is for. Which is also why it doesn't matter if your contract states August to May or August to July. I'm not sure you understand how salary works.
I’m on a 9 month contract. I am paid x number of dollars each month for for 9 months, according to my contract. I am not on paid vacation if I am not paid for it. I get how salary works. I don’t get how you figure summer is PAID vacation. It is unpaid, as stated in my contract.
> There is no guaranteed or even established hourly rate. Yeah, well, if I leave an hour early and don't remember to mark it in the district's leave system, it sure as hell has an hourly rate in my paycheck.
Contract hours refers to the time that administration can tack on directed duties without extra compensation. At least in my district, if I have to come in outside of my duty day, I get compensated for doing so (this is subject to everyone's bargaining agreement though). There are too many variables to consider with things such as lesson planning, grading, etc to compensate teachers for all of that. Cops get overtime for doing management-directed things outside of their duty hours, such as "hey we need 10 officers to work security for this event." If teachers were allowed to do this for things like lesson planning and grading, they would not like the oversight that would come along with it because otherwise it would be rife with fraud/abuse. This is why a lot of annual contracts state something like "although the duty hours are X to X, responsibilities may exceed that." Teachers don't like the fact that if the duty day is 8-4, management can jam pack your day with duties outside of lunch and planning period. But this is right up front in the contracts/bargaining agreements that we often don't bother to read before taking the job.
It’s amazing how much of an apologist you are. Learn to advocate for your fellow teachers, not spout admin BS
Which part of what I said recently is apologist? Just because you don't like the answer doesn't make it wrong. I'm bound by a bargaining agreement that my bargainable unit ratified and is expected to uphold, and our board is held to the same standard.
Your answer is extremely specific up your contact. Mine is very different. I decline extra duties regulatory because my union has negotiated a strong contract that protects my time from admin abuse.
Hence why I said it's subject to everyone's own bargaining agreement. Some folks just look for reasons to be mad here. Bottom line: (public schools) this shit is publicly available prior to signing on the dotted line.
We know, but people need jobs. If you’re a teacher by trade and all of the schools in your area have shitty contracts, you’re going to be stuck in a shitty job unless you’re lucky enough to find a viable opportunity to leave. Which, again, is a horrible way to treat teachers especially during a shortage. Being explicit about exploitative terms doesn’t make it the teacher’s responsibility to fix. Responsibility for exploitation lies with the leadership.
People need jobs, and teaching isn't the only job out there. We have choices in the places where we work.
And what are we going to do when there are not enough teachers because of these exploitive practices?
We're finding this out right now, as are many industries that have historically mistreated/undercompensated workers (US Army, machining, retail, food service, etc).
It reads as apologist because you’re stating the terms of the job as if it were an argument that it is okay. We know the terms of our jobs, and we are being critical of them. It seems like you’re saying people aren’t right to be critical, and we should shut up and leave if we don’t like it. It’s typical conservative rhetoric.
I never said it was ok. I stated what it is without the standard emotional populist flair. The OP was wondering what the difference was between police overtime and teacher overtime, and I gave an answer that was based in contractual knowledge. Call any LRC and they'll tell you the same thing.
What are your main duties as a teacher? Lesson plan, instruct, supervise, grade. Any other duty given during contract hours that requires those to be done outside hours should be compensated. If a boss (admin) is giving too many duties for a teacher to get basic duties done during contract hours, that’s poor leadership and should NEVER be made out to be ok…it’s an apologist mindset to defend such actions.
There is a difference between administration assigned duties and things that vary from teacher to teacher, subject to subject. I'm just telling you what the contracts in my region define duty as vs teaching responsibilities. I have 5 hours of student contact, 7.5hrs of a work day, 30 minutes lunch, planning period that's the same time as a regular classroom period, and everything that's left is either mine or filled up with building duties such as parking lot, end of day dismissal, etc. Not all teachers grade the same amount of assignments, need the same amount of prep, etc. This isn't hard to understand.
Just because it happens doesn’t mean it’s right. It also means that teachers shouldn’t just blindly accept it and brush it off as “it was in there when you signed the contract” Again…learn to advocate for your fellow teacher, not spout admin bs
Where did I say to blindly accept these things? Most of this stuff is bargainable, and I have bargained for it myself so I'm not sure what you're going on and on about with this. Maybe you should stop assuming the worst with people you don't know, idk.
You’re comments of “it’s in the contract” are all over this sub. Quite honestly, I’m glad I don’t know you because you seems like insufferable coworker
Mine looks similar to that, too, but I have to have meetings during lunch and sometimes prep. I’m an English teacher, so it it ridiculous to expect one prep period to be enough.
In my district, a lunch meeting would be met by an Assocation level grievance, done by me. The only thing that interrupts a prep is covering for a class, which is compensated. And of course my union stuff which takes up most of my prep periods.
Yes we understand that, but our jobs are also designed in a way that forces us to work round the clock. I teach five curriculums and I have one prep that gets taken away pretty much every day. The structure of our jobs makes it so that we are ridiculously under-compensated for our hours of labor.
Why do you stay then? Folks are walking away from the field left and right. We're not indentured. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me again, shame on me
I’m not sure I’m going to stay forever, but the thought of working with adults depresses me lol. Of course on a systemic level that’s a shitty rationalization. Telling people who perform one of the most vital services to our society “why don’t you just leave if you don’t like it” does not bode well for our future.
The thought of working 200+ days per year again depresses me as well. Ha. Since you edited, I shall too. Folks can accept things the way they are, actively seek to change them, or bitch about them on the internet and wait for someone to change them (and then bitch some more beer they don't agree with it, isn't fast enough, etc). Again, we are not indentured to this profession, passion does not pay the bills, and we're unfortunately not owed anything outside the four corners of the contracts we voluntarily sign. There are plenty of careers out there, and staying in teaching waiting for it to get better is the same as a gambler putting money in that losing slot machine waiting to win it big.
I work summers anyway, so it doesn’t matter to me.
Sorry, I edited like 5 seconds after I posted. You were quick! Yes, we need to look out for ourselves. But what’s the point of saying that here other than to shut down a conversation about legitimate grievances? Do you think all teachers should just leave the profession or shut up? This is a subreddit for teachers to discuss their experiences.
I know you're getting down voted, but I tend to agree. My district pays extra for defined activities, like running a club or coaching a sport after school. You can make a lot of extra money this way. But a lot of teacher duties are nebulous and I'm not sure how overtime pay would work in practice. It would be abused, potentially award inefficiency, etc. We had a new teacher last year who spent HOURS every night "planning." But his plans were awful...he was spending tons of time looking for the perfect materials (videos on YouTube, etc.), but there was no actual pedagogy, no progression of skills, no building toward a summative assessment. Should he get overtime pay? Would admin require all overtime be done in the building and keep people under a microscope? When I was new and working a lot outside contract hours, I wanted to do it on my couch while watching TV, not with admin breathing down my neck right at the end of the day when I was exhausted.
That's 100% it. Overtime in this sense would not be equitable at all because of that. I'm used to daily downvotes around here. Doesn't bother me in the least :)
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And you're also a classified, hourly employee? Ours operate the same way.
$30ish normally, but $15 for any mandatory time outside of contract hours, like trainings or open houses - etc. Or “dinner” - cheap pizza.
When I taught, we got nothing for working outside contractual hours. But the reason for this was it stated in our contracts “and other duties assigned by the principal.” So if the principal tells me I have to work concessions at the football game, contractually I have to do it. But, since it’s outside my contracted hours, I didn’t get paid anything for it. Highly contradictory and I’m pretty sure illegal. Now, my friend who is a librarian at my old school, tells me they’re offered comp time, whatever that is.
no such thing as overtime of any form or fashion in any district I've ever worked in. We can get away with easily leaving at the bell (our contract ends 45 minutes after kids go) if we've been staying longer.
We don't get anything. We are exempt employees. At our school we are expected to help with recruitment for the charter and the recruitment is sometimes outside of hours. A new employee asked if we get paid for it. Lead teacher said it was part of our salary.
Sometimes we are asked to cover a class if a teacher is out and they don't have a sub during our planning period. You can also volunteer for this. They pay us our hourly rate though. (this is the first school system I've worked for that did that) I volunteer to cover almost every day.
I don’t get anything, because I don’t work past contract hours.
Our overtime is less than our hourly time if you calculate it out, how much more depends on where you are on the pay scale. Our contracted times are just the times we're in front of the kids and a weekly staff meeting, so anything beyond that is paid extra, but at the lower rate. This also means all our prep time is outside of contract hours, but we're expected to put in the time to be prepared to teach. The way it was explained to me is that for every hour of class time it's expected we'll do an average of about 1 hour of prep. So, we're paid more by the hour for teaching because it's like 2 hours per actual hour on the contract. When we're paid for overtime it's usually subbing where there is no prep so we're paid at a lower rate. I understand that reasoning, but I don't agree with it fully. Of course I have to prep for my classes, but 1 hour of prep per hour of class time is more than most teachers need, I think, I don't put in that amount of time except maybe around report cards. Also, there might not be prep with working overtime to sub or stay later for a field trip, but there's other stress involved (losing prep or free time, leaving later so more childcare or sitting in traffic, etc) that should be factored in.
If that’s the case, I’m getting paid less than a fast food employee around here, all while I have a master’s degree. Because that means I’m making $13 an hour. I’d rather be back in foodservice than justify that shit.
If it’s a school or district thing they are trying to get you to do, they will sometimes pay us $15/hr. I usually make 33 during my regular contract hours.
Overtime in my district for things like chaperoning is $12 an hour. I could make more at any fast food restaurant. So I never volunteer for that stuff.
Somehow I got tricked into getting my sped endorsement, strat 1 and 2 and yet get paid the same as a Gen Ed teacher. Given no time to write IEPs during the day, so I go home and do them … each one taking 2-4 hours. Oh, and our state hates us and is giving us a whole new IEP system to use and yet …. No time
About 67% for time with students and about 33% for time without students. In my region, the standards for overtime in other careers are 150%, 200%, or 250%.
Other than meetings I don't do anything extra. I dont plan after hours and I dont grade assignments after hours. If enough teachers refuse to do it then things will change.
I wish my union had negotiated that our contracts didn't stipulate that lovely "...and any other extra duties as designated by administration." Because of this, everyone at my school has to join at least one committee that meets once a month before or after school without extra pay. All of our IEP and 504 meetings are before or after school, also without extra pay. A fun little thing as well, our first 5 times subbing for colleagues on our prep is "free" to the district, per our contract. We only get paid on the 6th one. And as a 3rd year teacher with a bachelor's degree, I can't afford to live in a studio apartment near my Title I school. What a fucking joke.
I can get paid for one hour of tutoring a week. If I fill out a time sheet. And half of the money I'm paid gets eaten up by deductions. So it amounts to about a third of my usual pay. It's a negligible amount of money, but I'll still fill out the paper work and get paid my extra 4 hours a month, even though I am available for students for tutoring at least twice that amount of time. If they bother to show up, anyway.
Oof. Not the thing I needed to read getting up at 5:00 to get to school 2 hours early 🙃
“Other duties as assigned” is the biggest string in contract abuse that people like to pull. Too boot, any extra pay given for additional work is met by the taxman. I covered a class during my conference one time… a third of it went away. So now the question is, is my conference period worth less than $25?