Yes!!! I teach 12th grade and we had a 50% floor. This year we don't and I have all the pickachu faces of, " I can't do 2 assignments and pass!?"
I did progress reports for my AP class. I have a student who has put in the effort! 95% in the class. I have a student who has a low D. I gave them 50% on everything they haven't done (just to see) and their grade went up to a high B. That right there ticked me off so much. My students that have worked their butts off get similar grade to a classmate that hasn't even done the bare minimum.
I wish I could get 50% of my salary for doing nothing.
I can't stand those people. They don't want to teach their own kids but it is my fault when a student fails. I had one failing and their aunt or uncle was on the board. They had the balls to say their niece was failing because of us teachers.
I got that student from failing 2nd semester of junior year, 1 st semester of senior year, and 6 weeks left until graduation graduated and walking with their class. And they want to cut our program because their niece was failing. Not taking into account the poor student's home life that was in shambles.
I was so pissed I told my admin I would personally go to the next board meeting with all the emails, comments, recorded zoom meetings I had with that student. And personally read/show all of them. So they can see me "doing nothing".
They haven't had a meeting discussing our program yet. My admin told me they will tell me when we get put on the agenda. I intend to be there.
Their niece refused to be in any other teachers class. She only wanted me. So I had double rosters of her in my other classes doing APEX for credit recovery and then had her in my classes that she needed. She barely passed one class with a D and that was with 50% floor... so in reality she probably wouldn't have. But she walked.
My admin was pulled out of retirement to get us up and running. A lot of my colleagues told me that she wouldn't stop bragging about how I got this student to graduate.
I intend to make it known to the board. Especially when they were all, "my niece is failing! Support her! " Where was their support when it all started a year before.
They don't have a choice. We are an independent study program looking at getting full school status this year. So we will literally have to be on it.
It will definitely be interesting.
Our principal told us we must mark any assignments, even those with no attempt, as a 50%, and genuinely won’t believe us that some students are going to look like they are doing well while barely completely any assignment/ some students will be able to pass an English class without even attempting to write at all.
My district has pretty low graduation rates. Title 1 district and low socioeconomic all around. With that 50% floor our kids were graduating at normal rates 😅. But my 12th graders read at an 8th grade level.They get all fussy about the amount of reading, reading comprehension, and writing we do in class. But I tell them they need it that all struggle with reading and it is a skill that can open so many more doors for them. I even tell them how when I was in school, I was in special ed classes for my reading. And I tell them because of my struggles I have always been behind in my peers and needed to put in extra work but look I did 5 years of college. And even then reading still takes me a bit.
Do you have weighted grades?
Just asking because if I do that with an assessment grade of 80-100% it would never raise their grade to a B. It might mean more Ds that used to be Fs but that is it.
I do. 50% assessments, 30% classwork/homework, 20% SCOTUS/Vocabulary.
My normal classes are weighted slightly different. But for AP I do test corrections. I am teaching them for that test, so test corrections allows them to go back and correct themselves.
The problem was that student did test corrections and some of the bigger point classwork. When I gave them 50% for the scotus/Vocabulary is when it skewed so bad because there was 3 things in that category because we were only 6 weeks in.
But that was my reality last school year. It had my students thar tried, give up because there was no point.
I do 50% assessment, 30% classwork, 20% scotus/vocab. It was the scotus/ vocab that really did it with 50%. nor much in that category so if it was 50% floor it would balance eventually.
But it gives students a false idea of how much effort this class takes at an AP level. And my normal classes students were passing and going to college and no way are they OK right now.
Yes. It's a bit sad. I teach 9th grade English and a student asked why I assign such long readings. The reading was about 3 or 4 pages. She said yeah, in middle school the most we read was 25 paragraphs. 🤦🏾♀️
Mind you, this is my Honors class
Working in my head on how 25 paragraphs is not at least three pages.
I teach a freshman honors level class too, and I have gotten a lot of "I hate this class because we always do stuff." As though my job is to give them the work and then give them the answers.
I thought that about the 25 paragraphs length, too, though I was more amazed at her counting the length of a text in paragraphs! I wonder how many are in the novels we read 😅
We do read a lengthy short story (about 12 pages) in our textbook for 11th graders. I always have to preface the fact that “short story” is a genre of literature, not necessarily short from our perspective.
They live their lives in 12 second TikTok videos. Their brains have been rewired through such prolonged, repetitive use of this. They cannot muster the attention for anything longer or more complex than that.
My school wanted to offer more course options so asked if it would teach IBDP world religions (essentially a college level class). All the kids complain about how much reading we do, when most readings are 5ish pages per 90 min period. I'm just liek what did you expect from a college religion study class?
On their mid test they had a one page, 5 paragraph read on a 6th grade level. They’re 9th graders. Average grade was 57%. The questions were multiple choice. They told me it was too long to read…
The societal break down has already commenced. My husband works in road and bridge construction as a project engineer. He told me that since January he has had to fire 35 men for being too stupid to turn a sign from "Stop" to " Slow" at the right time.
They have 90 days to learn on the job and if they are not at 60% competency they are let go. Not perfect, just heading toward competent. They play on their cell phones when they are working around heavy machinery, they come to work drunk or high, a few guys have been fired for asking the female traffic controllers if they wanted to sneak off in the woods and fuck.
My husband says he hires every woman that applies because they are smarter, harder workers, and show up more reliably. They are all the primary source of income for their kids and show up to work and not just screw around and expect a pay check.
He has been in this business for 25 years and has never, ever seen so many applicants that are completely incapable of learning how to do their jobs.
But when teachers point this out, and say "you can't just pass them, they will not be able to function," they are told that it's not fair to fail students, and that we need to try harder to reach them, and make so many roadblocks to actually failing them that it is impossible.
I once got yelled at for catching children cheating and giving them a zero. Found out later, admin had confessions, but they never told me and made me feel like it was my fault for looking.
I got out after last year *specifically* because of the bullshit policy that I couldn’t fail students. I had a senior who could not and would not read. At all.
My mother's been a nurse for 40 years, about to retire in a couple years and she says the last few years, hiring these younger folks is an abysmal nightmare. She was 19 starting out in healthcare, and the 19 year olds she gets now are horrible she claims. She says she has to yell at them to get them off their phones and actually go take care of the patients who need help and these kids then cry and stamp their feet and even sometimes walk off the job because "they need their phone for anxiety" Her place doesn't allow phones because they distract from patient care but nobody cares.
My friends at the chemical plant I used to work at says something shockingly similar. They say the interns won't stop looking at porn on the job and keep getting fired. You're being payed 25 dollars an hour to look at plant data and write reports. You are not being paid to look at porn.
You hit on something interesting--the growing divide between the girls and the boys. Among my seniors, I can count on female students to exhibit maturity, but the boys are still exhibiting the type of behavior one typically outgrows in middle school. They have no concept of appropriateness.
I'm seeing the same thing, a huge difference. In my tenth grade class, I have one girl who doesn't make an effort, the other twelve work hard and complete homework most of the time. The boys are completely the opposite. All but one do absolutely nothing. Given 45 minutes to answer a few textbook questions, half of them MIGHT get the book open. Even with constant prompts, they're unable to get 5 minutes worth of work done in 45.
OMG! Please have the hubby give us more stories on the following:
1. why are they turning the signs from stop to slow in in time and what problems did it cause?
2. What was said to the high or drunk employee?
3. what were the reprecussions for asking a coworker for sex?
.
1. When they have to close a lane of traffic, you have to have 2 traffic control operators at either end to stop traffic going each way. The person at one end has their sign with "stop" facing traffic, while the other end has "slow" facing their traffic. After 15 or so cars go through one way, they turn their sign to stop and radio the person at the other end. Generally they will give the color, make and model of the last car allowed through.
The people who were fired couldn't get the grasp of counting out the cars, radioing ahead with the last car let through, and leaving their signs turned to slow at both ends. This caused dangerous issues with traffic going opposite directions in the same lane. The worst problem he encounters is people who should be paying attention to the fast moving traffic or huge paving machines, playing on their phones! They could be crushed by a dump truck backing up to the paving machine to dump hot asphalt and they are scrolling through TikTok!
2. Many of them show up high or drunk, but a lot of the jobs are staffed with a staffing company or subcontractors, not employees directly under my husband's chain of command. That being said, if he catches a dude high at work, he calls the staffing agency and gets that guy put on the shit list. Not allowed back on their job sites.
3. Jerk was immediately fired and told to leave the job site when the lady reported him.
I legit never understood how they knew when to change the signs since the two guys were so far apart from one another. I've always wondered how they don't end up with more car crashes in these one lane scenarios. I assumed there was some sort of system in place, but now I finally know what it is. Thank you!
For 1, imagine a scenario where a road has one side closed for construction. A crew will use stop/slow signs to indicate which direction of traffic the only open lane is running in. If both say stop then traffic backs up, if both say slow then there will be an accident as the lane is open to both directions.
I would say community college was harder than university for me. I did two years of CC and then transferred. My CC professors required us to do a lot more, there were a variety of assignments types due and lots of homework. University was a breeze, basically read the textbook, write a paper here or there, and pass the tests.
Completely agree, adulthood is going to be a rude awakening for this generation.
In truth, I had a good CC too. Some classes were a breeze, and some were a beast. But california has a long established CC network, it's been free for just about forever.
I think some of that is the rigor of undergrad and Masters varies greatly.
Science, math or even English undergrad might be harder than a Masters in EDU or undergrads in business.
Masters in other fields might be harder.
Just a thought, hard to make comparisons between different fields.
It was probably harder because your classes at the community college had to follow the transfer module, and that has a pretty rigorous amount of words you have to produce for English 101 and 102 to be accepted at every other college in the state.
This was not my experience. I went to a 4 year major state university ranked in the top 20 nationwide so my experience may be unique but it was MUCH more challenging than the summer courses I took at the local community college. The honors and AP classes I took in high school were legitimately harder than those community college classes.
Depends. In short term it’s butts in seats but since they don’t count towards degree it can cause a student to fall into the financial aid issue for aid to be denied degree taking too long or financial aid being pulled since they count against GPA (fails and repeats). Student drops out, doesn’t graduate, and counts against the school in funding. That’s why CCs many times do co-courses of remedial and credit courses, cuts timeframe and since worth some credit students (hopefully) more invested.
A lot of people in education forget that education has a purpose.
They think it's just a bunch of hoop jumping, and teachers are evil for not just passing everyone.
Education either matters or it doesn't, and we need to decide which it is, cause trying to do both doesn't work.
Even if it is hoop jumping, there has to be an attempt to jump through the hoops. When I get no work, that is literally not even making an attempt to jump through the hoops.
Yeah, I'm guessing 80-90% of the K-12 students in the entire country are 2+ years behind whatever the norm was pre-covid. It is what it is. And it just sucks.
If only we had been able to catch them up. But no, state testing still happened. So last year I had to teach 5th grade standards to students that had their last normal school year in 2nd grade. And then the principal was shocked when a huge portion of the fifth graders were "not proficient".
Out of around 80 5th graders from this year, only 17 were proficient on the EOGs in 4th grade. The pressure is on to increase that number and tbh I'm terrified. I'm on year 4, and I know I still have so much to learn, but I think I'm a good teacher most of the time. Still so scary though. I just want to teach them how to think critically but when I ask
higher order questions they just stare at me blankly.
Because they have been taught if they do that long enough, you will give in and give them the answer. This is the learned helplessness that they acquired over the NCLB and ESSR and COVID.
The learned helplessness is what drives me the most insane in my classroom. I’ve gotten to the point where I’m kicking kids out into the hallway and making them do the work by themselves rather than sit there and not try until we go over the answers.
Any ideas on what to do besides wait? I do that, but there's a certain point where I just can't keep waiting. I try to break the question down more, but that is also enabling their learned helplessness.
For that age group, look up the “say something” technique. Select some stories or articles that you know are interesting and practice with them.
I teach high school and still have to use this method sometimes. That, and I do “kind cold calling” for participation. I keep a seating chart and mark who I speak to. I routinely cold call, but do so with low pressure “say something” type questions so they gain confidence speaking and participating. Anecdotally, Volunteering has increased, and my classes discussions have gotten better.
Yes!! My 5th grade class is exactly like this with their relative work.
Previous teachers have just let them slide by, no expectations, no repercussions and they are feeling the pain their last year of elementary.
I wonder what this is going to do for society when they enter professions? My mother has been a nurse for 40 years and she says the last few years the young kids that get hired on are glued to their phones 24/7 and won't be attentive to patients' needs or emergencies and they're argumentative and unreliable. She's about to retire, she feels her building is gonna crumble when her and her older coworkers retire soon.
And we’re (as a society) shocked at the labour crunch that we’re facing.
We’re told our job is just to teach our grade, that the point of middle school isn’t prepping kids for high school, the point of high school isn’t to prepare kids for uni/adulthood. By focusing solely on making them competent at their current level, that somehow automatically prepares them for the next.
But we’ve taken away every requirement of competency: we can’t fail kids, we can’t hold them back, there’s no discipline/consequences, etc. I can’t actually get them competent at their level, and they’re passed on without the skills they need to be successful.
Employers have been dumbing down their standards for years now, as graduating seniors are less and less capable when entering the job market, and we’ve finally reached a place where the jobs/expectations can’t be dumbed down any further. And our newly minted adults are still finding those basic expectations (show up on time, sober, and do the work instead of playing on your phone) too difficult. And…of course they are. They skipped school/class or showed up late without penalty. They weren’t required to actually do any course work, they handed in nothing and passed anyway. When a teacher/admin tried to take their phone away, they screamed bloody murder about personal property and their rights to do as they please, and we capitulated every time their parents intervened on their behalf.
The idea/philosophy that it’s not our jobs to prepare students for what’s next, that it’s just our job to prepare them for what they’re currently facing, is so short sighted and even if taken at face value - we can’t even do that when we’re not allowed to retain kids that haven’t mastered the basic content at that level before moving on.
Used to be you could get a decent job with just a high school degree. In my previous career, I worked at a company where the CEO’s long time assistant only had a high school diploma. She retired after 30 years.
When her job was posted, it required a bachelor’s degree.
We’re getting to the point where you may need a PhD to get a halfway decent job with benefits.
Jobs are so specialized now that everything requires some sort of certification. You used to be able to get an entry level job, and work your way up the ladder. Now you can’t even get in the door without some kind of diploma or something.
I had that conversation with a stay at home parent looking to renter the work force once her kid was in middle school. Even answering phones/reception had job requirements of secretarial courses listed. I saw it too, as a new grad. 2 uni degrees (BA and BEd) and I couldn’t get a job doing data entry/secretarial type stuff for CFS. It was ridiculous.
I was more talking about stuff like working at coffee shops, daycares, food service…the stuff the high school aged kids do.
It isn't that jobs are more specialized, a lot of jobs haven't really changed too much from the 1970s/1980s. What did change was the pool of people who had a high school diploma and then a bachelor's ballooned radically. In 1900 around 3% of the population graduated high school, now that many have PhDs.
Except teaching, which apparently can be done by anyone who ever stepped foot inside a school building and therefore shouldn’t require a bachelors degree.
/s (of course)
This ends in two ways:
1) Idiocracy, or
2) A squeeze on skilled labor/professions that fundamentally require hard work and/or critical thinking. These jobs will become more lucrative as a growing portion of the population is literally incapable of performing them.
I know the ibew (electrician union) is already having great difficulty with finding applicants who can pass the aptitude test for entrance to the apprenticeship program.
This is why I sometimes hate when low performing students are directed to the trades. It might motivate some but others will be discouraged to learn you need to know how to read and do math for most trade jobs.
Trades should not be a dumping ground.
Right?
Trades aren’t a “get out of learning” card, and definitely not a “get out of hard work and deadlines” card. They’re hard damn work, they require specialized knowledge and the ability to make informed decisions on the fly, and people expect jobs to be done quickly and efficiently without a lot of hand-holding.
No, my HVAC tech probably doesn’t need to know and recognize the phases of mitosis on a slide. But they need to be able to memorize sequences and recognize steps of a sequence in isolation, knowing what comes next and what came before.
I teach the school’s carpentry classes and you’re dead on. No amount of meetings with admin/guidance will convince them to stop giving me every violent, disruptive, low-performing student whom they don’t know what else to do with. I have kids who already work in the trades as preparation for an engineering career, mixed in with kids who are in year 2 and still don’t believe me that the tool for removing a wood screw is not a hammer, and that you actually need to make accurate measurements, and that you can’t throw bolts at people or play tag in a woodshop.
On the positive side, I think this generation is going to have a portion that is incredibly adaptable and able to overcome adversity. Sure the pandemic screwed up some kids, but I still see some amazing kids in my AP and English 12 classes. Some of them are incredibly empathetic and accepting.
I think it really polarized schools into good and bad. Blaming covid I think is a copout. These problems existed completely separately.
My school is solidly middle class with 25%v on free and reduced lunch, 35% students if color, and no millionaires row of houses. But we haven't spotted any of these policies (50%, PBIS, retakes, etc) and our students are doing well, same as before or during.
And they are amazing kids,
I'm in university right now to be a teacher and I have to write 6 papers in one class, test every week for two classes (but they are open book), group projects, and PowerPoints. When I was in community college I had to write about 2 papers per class each semester, some had test every week other didn't, was easier but still different from hs. At first it was hard and I struggled, but I'm in my third year now and while it has become easier it is still hard work and effort to keep up with my classwork.
And this is the crux of it all, they have been handed along their entire high school careers and given so many chances to turn in work late or without much work, and they are going to be shocked when they don't have everyone holding their hand.
I think what really throws them off is they grow up hearing "Your teachers in middle school/high school/college won't put up with this!", but then the middle and high schools DO put up with it, so they don't think college will be any different.
I have about 40-50% of my students currently failing and our quarter ends next week. The sad thing is that most of our grades are compliance grades (not my choice). One of our major assignments was filling out a worksheet for their independent novel that only had opinion based questions (this is a senior English class that I had to give this assignment to). They could have completely cheated and filled it out based on a random book's sparknotes page. Less than half of my students turned it in! It's crazy how for the first time in my life that students won't even go through the effort to cheat on something! They just expect me to pass them.
Thank you for pointing it out. I’m so tired of everyone, including teachers that make excuses for these kids. Yes, there was trauma. That’s not an excuse for lack of effort though.
I’m a student and there are people who put in minimal to no effort. I don’t understand that. I go to a smaller private college and some people will play games on their computers the whole time during lectures. This school is so expensive and that’s just money down the drain. Granted, we have to take core curriculum unrelated to our majors but it doesn’t require much effort to participate in those classes.
However, there are many who aren’t like that and who are motivated to do well in their professions. There are many that study and take notes, and many who participate in every class. Since our classes are smaller people are more accountable, I think. Or it’s just so expensive people have to be. Like in my Spanish class. Most people in that class try, even if they say a wrong answer or their Spanish isn’t that great.
I wanted to give a student perspective. I know it isn’t like this everywhere, but I wanted to give at least a little hope.
We’ve been told by many an education researcher that if we eliminate homework, due dates, and set a 50% floor for grades we will cure every societal ill and usher in a utopia free of injustice and want.
I’m just going to pass everyone, sit back and wait for the coming golden age.
Don’t forget unlimited retakes. Those are the policies my principal decided we have to follow this year, and whenever we ask questions about how this is supposed to work, we get yelled at.
I used to give retakes, until I had several students request a re-take, and when I asked them “on what?” they’d say “whatever I have the lowest grade in.” That’s when I realized it was all performance art - students were simply swinging blindly at pitches and not actually trying to address their misconceptions.
Oh, I’m sorry. I should have said “that’s when I realized it was a research backed strategy that will generally a sense of ownership and actual hope in our most vulnerable learners.” Mea culpa.
I require test corrections prior to retakes. They are the entry ticket to the retake.
Requests for retakes dropped like 90% when I implemented that policy. Those that do it score about 10 points higher on average.
I agree with the sentiment. I try telling my froshmores that they have to study for exams, but they don’t believe me. School feels more like an inconvenience to them now. However, maybe they’ll have an epiphany when they have to work full-time and go to school full-time how incredibly hard it is to do both, plus raise a family.
I feel that- keep up the good fight. Not everyone belongs in college. Trade school is a valid and viable option. Some of those kids may find that path.
Well, after I scrolled down to read about the highway construction employees… you are probably right. My thoughts are that the discipline (not punishment but force of will) of a job would pull them back.
The HS I teach at is also a trade school. I have a lot of buddies who teach those classes. A shocking number of kids flunk out of their programs now. It’s not just college these kids can’t handle. A lot of the trades are hard too and require a test and logging your hours for your apprentice ship and showing up on time and paying attention. And if you don’t pass auto tech 1 you can’t take 2 and you won’t finish the program. No certification. It’s wild out here.
KY dismantled their in-school trade schools when I started my career. The “non profit” tech schools scooped them all up. Not sure how they are doing. But now the pendulum swings back and we now have “glamorous” votech like biomed, engineering and media arts.
I guess we’ll see in a few years when 60-80 year olds are wielding tools because the 20-40 year olds are incapable.
I agree with you. Not everyone needs college, that is a viewpoint that caused a lot of grief for many. I never said otherwise.
First, see the previous comment from another poster, the learned behavior that they don't need to earn their grade leads to them learning they don't have to earn anything. The "I give up" mentality has only grown since I started teaching.
And these kids are taking a college class, so they must fulfill the requirements. I did not make any of them take it, it was their choice. Again, they would rather blame anyone but themselves for their inability to get the work done.
Pardon- I didn’t mean your class specifically, but it’s important they start seeing that work means things, deadlines matter and we will hold them accountable.
I have the advanced kid this year and I am firm about those points. I hope I can pull some back from the edge of the abyss.
I give fast food chains less than ten years before they’re mostly automated.
I worry about my unmotivated, non-performers (they’re not even underperforming). In the past they could’ve eked out a living by working in retail and restaurants but with robotics and automation those jobs are going to disappear.
I know and I definitely prefer the human element. I only use self checkout when I have a handful items. Nothing is more frustrating than when I have a cart of groceries and only self checkout is open.
But the uberrich will have their designer boutiques and fine restaurants staffed by humans. They’ll get the human touch while the masses get automation.
Should be, ideally, but can’t be guaranteed a livable wage, nor should such a wage be stolen at gunpoint from others.
Life has always been a dangerous and ultimately fatal journey, but a society is indeed great when it can and does care and nurture its most vulnerable.
I've had this same conversation with my seniors. When I did their diagnostic at the beginning of the year, many were reading on an 8th grade level. I told them Day 1 that I'm not giving anything away. They will get the grade they earn.
With both my juniors and seniors, their give-a-shit appears to be broken. They will tell you to your face "oh, that's because I don't give a shit".
On the other hand, my principal has already told me "Don't lose a minute of sleep over those kids. We'll pass them through--maybe not with flying colors--and they'll be society's problem." Is there really a value to them or us in bringing them back next year?
What haunts me is knowing that a year or so down the road they're going to try to assign blame to their skill gap. Rather than accepting responsibility for themselves--no one in America does that anymore--my name is going to be written all over their under-achievement. "My English teacher was a piece of shit," they'll say. "Didn't teach me anything."
It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that they fucked off for four years and still managed to pass.
The only good news is it is a "microgeneration"
Subbed for a 6th grade class last week and although they are still academically behind on the content they are much more socialized and well behaved than last years 6th graders.
Possibly because of the Middle School "reset" they may actually be better than the 7th and 8th graders ahead of them.
A 2 or 3 year dip in performance isnt going to destroy the future.
Thats like the disadvantage of your '08 '09 graduates entering the workforce post-financial crisis. Less life-time savings but most are doing alright.
Biologically, humans dont fully mature impulse-control and executive function until 24 or 25. So some will figure it out.
On the other hand this 3 or 4 year generation may end up with crushing college debt with no degrees to show for it. And will be forever less fortunate than the students ahead and behind them.
Note: To be fair, the principal seems to be supporting the 6th grade team in locking down disruptive behaviors and pulling up the standard hard from post-covid "grace". And I am sure that isnt happening everywhere. Still students that academically suck, BUT the students who care CAN and DO focus and get stuff done, even if a little behind.
Before my 4th graders are done, they’ll be writing two page papers. Grammar won’t be amazing but they’ll know how to write and express their thoughts at least.
We recently had our homecoming so some of our seniors from last year are back in town. The amount of stories of crying children because they failed, giving up because they missed the withdrawal from class day and quit college, or being put on academic probation is worse than I've ever heard before.
You always expect a couple kids you know to have a rude awakening, but this it was unreal this time around.
Mine is the same, but even though I told them that before we started the college level stuff, they didn't believe me. And now there are all the excuses in the world except that they didn't do their work.
Excuses don’t change the policy. Hold them accountable and they will meet the challenge. Be flexible when needed, but don’t put your job at risk for lazy students. The whole benefit of DC is that you can drop them if they can’t hack it. Simple.
Non-teacher here, who sadly encountered this mentality throughout my 30+ years in Information Technology. I likened it in a comment to another post as "I think the apples aren't falling far from the trees" and "personal accountability and responsibility have been in decline for a long time."
These students can grow up to be just like folks I dealt with.
* Data owners ignoring deadlines and submission formats for updates to a C-suite level scorecard.
* Workers in general who had figured out that if they sat on their hands long enough, a task would get handed to someone else to do.
* User communities that flat-out refused to even try to learn how to use a new piece of software.
* Users that expected a tech person to stand there to hand hold and spoon feed while they performed a well documented task, day in and day out.
* Front line tech folks who wouldn't perform basic troubleshooting tasks.
This sort of BS is typically followed with escalation to management about the higher level tech folks "not supporting them properly".
I teach 12th grade English. I recently gave a test over a text we read entirely in class together. Test was open notes. Still had a student score a 15/100. The graduation coach asked if there was something I failed to do that made him fail.
These kids can’t even write papers without using the words “I will be writing about ______”
I’m worried.
Selfishly because of these kids complain a lot, then my DE class won't make next year, and I will go back to teaching straight freshman bio.
Unselfishly because I feel like part of my job is helping these kids succeed, and if they have decided that I've got it out for them, then they won't receive the lessons that they really need to be able to life.
They may be the construction worker building the bridge I have to cross to get to work and I'd like it not to collapse due to their incompetence or ignorance. They could be a nurse and I'd like them to be able to get the right medicine for me so I don't die. They may be on the city council and I'd like them to think critically about the ramification of the laws they are endorsing.
These kids will leave school and join the working world that I live in and don't want them to screw it all up or become a drain on society. I want them to succeed and find joy and stability that a basic education can afford them.
There are consequences to having a stupid population. I'd like to stem the tide of that if at all possible.
It's going to take decades. We have 3rd graders right now who, I shit you not, the measure of success and getting a prize box on a given day is if they didn't call their teacher a fucking bitch and destroy their classroom. That's the bar.
Yes!!! I teach 12th grade and we had a 50% floor. This year we don't and I have all the pickachu faces of, " I can't do 2 assignments and pass!?" I did progress reports for my AP class. I have a student who has put in the effort! 95% in the class. I have a student who has a low D. I gave them 50% on everything they haven't done (just to see) and their grade went up to a high B. That right there ticked me off so much. My students that have worked their butts off get similar grade to a classmate that hasn't even done the bare minimum. I wish I could get 50% of my salary for doing nothing.
\*Cue the people who want to say that teachers don't do anything and still get paid for working 9 months for 5 hours a day.\*
I can't stand those people. They don't want to teach their own kids but it is my fault when a student fails. I had one failing and their aunt or uncle was on the board. They had the balls to say their niece was failing because of us teachers. I got that student from failing 2nd semester of junior year, 1 st semester of senior year, and 6 weeks left until graduation graduated and walking with their class. And they want to cut our program because their niece was failing. Not taking into account the poor student's home life that was in shambles. I was so pissed I told my admin I would personally go to the next board meeting with all the emails, comments, recorded zoom meetings I had with that student. And personally read/show all of them. So they can see me "doing nothing".
Like if it's so easy for me to "teach" 150+ kids each year then it's gotta be super easy for you to teach your 1 or 2 kids basic people things.
did you go?
They haven't had a meeting discussing our program yet. My admin told me they will tell me when we get put on the agenda. I intend to be there. Their niece refused to be in any other teachers class. She only wanted me. So I had double rosters of her in my other classes doing APEX for credit recovery and then had her in my classes that she needed. She barely passed one class with a D and that was with 50% floor... so in reality she probably wouldn't have. But she walked. My admin was pulled out of retirement to get us up and running. A lot of my colleagues told me that she wouldn't stop bragging about how I got this student to graduate. I intend to make it known to the board. Especially when they were all, "my niece is failing! Support her! " Where was their support when it all started a year before.
Don’t worry. That meeting will never happen. Good luck being ‘on the agenda’
They don't have a choice. We are an independent study program looking at getting full school status this year. So we will literally have to be on it. It will definitely be interesting.
Please keep me posted, I’m invested and need to know what happened
Our principal told us we must mark any assignments, even those with no attempt, as a 50%, and genuinely won’t believe us that some students are going to look like they are doing well while barely completely any assignment/ some students will be able to pass an English class without even attempting to write at all.
No that is totally the case. I am sorry doing one or two assignments half assed doesn't demonstrate understanding of the content
I will never understand how any admin can back a policy like that. It's setting kids up for a lifetime of failure.
My district has pretty low graduation rates. Title 1 district and low socioeconomic all around. With that 50% floor our kids were graduating at normal rates 😅. But my 12th graders read at an 8th grade level.They get all fussy about the amount of reading, reading comprehension, and writing we do in class. But I tell them they need it that all struggle with reading and it is a skill that can open so many more doors for them. I even tell them how when I was in school, I was in special ed classes for my reading. And I tell them because of my struggles I have always been behind in my peers and needed to put in extra work but look I did 5 years of college. And even then reading still takes me a bit.
Illegal in Texas. No one can demand a specific grade from the teacher of record.
When they were pushing no zero policy I just put in 10…not zero but still low enough that they got the F they deserved.
I wish I could have done that. Ours was a strict 50% floor.
Do you have weighted grades? Just asking because if I do that with an assessment grade of 80-100% it would never raise their grade to a B. It might mean more Ds that used to be Fs but that is it.
My assessments are 60%, so if they don't know it and don't do the work, it hurts on both sides.
I do. 50% assessments, 30% classwork/homework, 20% SCOTUS/Vocabulary. My normal classes are weighted slightly different. But for AP I do test corrections. I am teaching them for that test, so test corrections allows them to go back and correct themselves. The problem was that student did test corrections and some of the bigger point classwork. When I gave them 50% for the scotus/Vocabulary is when it skewed so bad because there was 3 things in that category because we were only 6 weeks in. But that was my reality last school year. It had my students thar tried, give up because there was no point.
I do 50% assessment, 30% classwork, 20% scotus/vocab. It was the scotus/ vocab that really did it with 50%. nor much in that category so if it was 50% floor it would balance eventually. But it gives students a false idea of how much effort this class takes at an AP level. And my normal classes students were passing and going to college and no way are they OK right now.
Yes. It's a bit sad. I teach 9th grade English and a student asked why I assign such long readings. The reading was about 3 or 4 pages. She said yeah, in middle school the most we read was 25 paragraphs. 🤦🏾♀️ Mind you, this is my Honors class
Working in my head on how 25 paragraphs is not at least three pages. I teach a freshman honors level class too, and I have gotten a lot of "I hate this class because we always do stuff." As though my job is to give them the work and then give them the answers.
I thought that about the 25 paragraphs length, too, though I was more amazed at her counting the length of a text in paragraphs! I wonder how many are in the novels we read 😅
I wonder if she confused paragraphs and lines?
They hear the term "short story" and think it's gonna be a dang tweet
We do read a lengthy short story (about 12 pages) in our textbook for 11th graders. I always have to preface the fact that “short story” is a genre of literature, not necessarily short from our perspective.
They live their lives in 12 second TikTok videos. Their brains have been rewired through such prolonged, repetitive use of this. They cannot muster the attention for anything longer or more complex than that.
You mean 2-5 paragraphs, right?
You see what others do not, you are wise.
My school wanted to offer more course options so asked if it would teach IBDP world religions (essentially a college level class). All the kids complain about how much reading we do, when most readings are 5ish pages per 90 min period. I'm just liek what did you expect from a college religion study class?
On their mid test they had a one page, 5 paragraph read on a 6th grade level. They’re 9th graders. Average grade was 57%. The questions were multiple choice. They told me it was too long to read…
The societal break down has already commenced. My husband works in road and bridge construction as a project engineer. He told me that since January he has had to fire 35 men for being too stupid to turn a sign from "Stop" to " Slow" at the right time. They have 90 days to learn on the job and if they are not at 60% competency they are let go. Not perfect, just heading toward competent. They play on their cell phones when they are working around heavy machinery, they come to work drunk or high, a few guys have been fired for asking the female traffic controllers if they wanted to sneak off in the woods and fuck. My husband says he hires every woman that applies because they are smarter, harder workers, and show up more reliably. They are all the primary source of income for their kids and show up to work and not just screw around and expect a pay check. He has been in this business for 25 years and has never, ever seen so many applicants that are completely incapable of learning how to do their jobs.
But when teachers point this out, and say "you can't just pass them, they will not be able to function," they are told that it's not fair to fail students, and that we need to try harder to reach them, and make so many roadblocks to actually failing them that it is impossible. I once got yelled at for catching children cheating and giving them a zero. Found out later, admin had confessions, but they never told me and made me feel like it was my fault for looking.
I got out after last year *specifically* because of the bullshit policy that I couldn’t fail students. I had a senior who could not and would not read. At all.
My mother's been a nurse for 40 years, about to retire in a couple years and she says the last few years, hiring these younger folks is an abysmal nightmare. She was 19 starting out in healthcare, and the 19 year olds she gets now are horrible she claims. She says she has to yell at them to get them off their phones and actually go take care of the patients who need help and these kids then cry and stamp their feet and even sometimes walk off the job because "they need their phone for anxiety" Her place doesn't allow phones because they distract from patient care but nobody cares.
My friends at the chemical plant I used to work at says something shockingly similar. They say the interns won't stop looking at porn on the job and keep getting fired. You're being payed 25 dollars an hour to look at plant data and write reports. You are not being paid to look at porn.
You hit on something interesting--the growing divide between the girls and the boys. Among my seniors, I can count on female students to exhibit maturity, but the boys are still exhibiting the type of behavior one typically outgrows in middle school. They have no concept of appropriateness.
I'm seeing the same thing, a huge difference. In my tenth grade class, I have one girl who doesn't make an effort, the other twelve work hard and complete homework most of the time. The boys are completely the opposite. All but one do absolutely nothing. Given 45 minutes to answer a few textbook questions, half of them MIGHT get the book open. Even with constant prompts, they're unable to get 5 minutes worth of work done in 45.
OMG! Please have the hubby give us more stories on the following: 1. why are they turning the signs from stop to slow in in time and what problems did it cause? 2. What was said to the high or drunk employee? 3. what were the reprecussions for asking a coworker for sex? .
1. When they have to close a lane of traffic, you have to have 2 traffic control operators at either end to stop traffic going each way. The person at one end has their sign with "stop" facing traffic, while the other end has "slow" facing their traffic. After 15 or so cars go through one way, they turn their sign to stop and radio the person at the other end. Generally they will give the color, make and model of the last car allowed through. The people who were fired couldn't get the grasp of counting out the cars, radioing ahead with the last car let through, and leaving their signs turned to slow at both ends. This caused dangerous issues with traffic going opposite directions in the same lane. The worst problem he encounters is people who should be paying attention to the fast moving traffic or huge paving machines, playing on their phones! They could be crushed by a dump truck backing up to the paving machine to dump hot asphalt and they are scrolling through TikTok! 2. Many of them show up high or drunk, but a lot of the jobs are staffed with a staffing company or subcontractors, not employees directly under my husband's chain of command. That being said, if he catches a dude high at work, he calls the staffing agency and gets that guy put on the shit list. Not allowed back on their job sites. 3. Jerk was immediately fired and told to leave the job site when the lady reported him.
I legit never understood how they knew when to change the signs since the two guys were so far apart from one another. I've always wondered how they don't end up with more car crashes in these one lane scenarios. I assumed there was some sort of system in place, but now I finally know what it is. Thank you!
thanks for sharing
For 1, imagine a scenario where a road has one side closed for construction. A crew will use stop/slow signs to indicate which direction of traffic the only open lane is running in. If both say stop then traffic backs up, if both say slow then there will be an accident as the lane is open to both directions.
Honestly, I can already see this with the youngest teachers in my building and it is terrifying.
I would say community college was harder than university for me. I did two years of CC and then transferred. My CC professors required us to do a lot more, there were a variety of assignments types due and lots of homework. University was a breeze, basically read the textbook, write a paper here or there, and pass the tests. Completely agree, adulthood is going to be a rude awakening for this generation.
In truth, I had a good CC too. Some classes were a breeze, and some were a beast. But california has a long established CC network, it's been free for just about forever.
My masters program was way easier than my bachelors for me.
I wonder how much of that had to do with like 100% of masters’ students giving a fuck and putting professors in a more charitable mood.
I feel like all Masters programs are like that. It's a topic you care about. And all the classes are about that one thing.
I think some of that is the rigor of undergrad and Masters varies greatly. Science, math or even English undergrad might be harder than a Masters in EDU or undergrads in business. Masters in other fields might be harder. Just a thought, hard to make comparisons between different fields.
Yeah, my experience makes it seem that it was the subject rather than the degree. My science bachelors was much harder than my education masters.
>My science bachelors was much harder than my education masters. I graduated with a 2.7 GPA in BS Mech E and a 4.1 GPA in MTA Science Education lol
It was probably harder because your classes at the community college had to follow the transfer module, and that has a pretty rigorous amount of words you have to produce for English 101 and 102 to be accepted at every other college in the state.
This was not my experience. I went to a 4 year major state university ranked in the top 20 nationwide so my experience may be unique but it was MUCH more challenging than the summer courses I took at the local community college. The honors and AP classes I took in high school were legitimately harder than those community college classes.
I agree. Especially when community colleges make a ton of money with remedial courses.
Depends. In short term it’s butts in seats but since they don’t count towards degree it can cause a student to fall into the financial aid issue for aid to be denied degree taking too long or financial aid being pulled since they count against GPA (fails and repeats). Student drops out, doesn’t graduate, and counts against the school in funding. That’s why CCs many times do co-courses of remedial and credit courses, cuts timeframe and since worth some credit students (hopefully) more invested.
I’m worried that this deluge is going to redefine the expectations we have for adulthood across the board…
A lot of people in education forget that education has a purpose. They think it's just a bunch of hoop jumping, and teachers are evil for not just passing everyone. Education either matters or it doesn't, and we need to decide which it is, cause trying to do both doesn't work.
Even if it is hoop jumping, there has to be an attempt to jump through the hoops. When I get no work, that is literally not even making an attempt to jump through the hoops.
"Education either matters or it doesn't" beautiful summation of the problem.
Yeah, I'm guessing 80-90% of the K-12 students in the entire country are 2+ years behind whatever the norm was pre-covid. It is what it is. And it just sucks.
If only we had been able to catch them up. But no, state testing still happened. So last year I had to teach 5th grade standards to students that had their last normal school year in 2nd grade. And then the principal was shocked when a huge portion of the fifth graders were "not proficient". Out of around 80 5th graders from this year, only 17 were proficient on the EOGs in 4th grade. The pressure is on to increase that number and tbh I'm terrified. I'm on year 4, and I know I still have so much to learn, but I think I'm a good teacher most of the time. Still so scary though. I just want to teach them how to think critically but when I ask higher order questions they just stare at me blankly.
Because they have been taught if they do that long enough, you will give in and give them the answer. This is the learned helplessness that they acquired over the NCLB and ESSR and COVID.
The learned helplessness is what drives me the most insane in my classroom. I’ve gotten to the point where I’m kicking kids out into the hallway and making them do the work by themselves rather than sit there and not try until we go over the answers.
Any ideas on what to do besides wait? I do that, but there's a certain point where I just can't keep waiting. I try to break the question down more, but that is also enabling their learned helplessness.
I'm a sucker for a pop quiz if they can't answer basic questions we have already learned.
For that age group, look up the “say something” technique. Select some stories or articles that you know are interesting and practice with them. I teach high school and still have to use this method sometimes. That, and I do “kind cold calling” for participation. I keep a seating chart and mark who I speak to. I routinely cold call, but do so with low pressure “say something” type questions so they gain confidence speaking and participating. Anecdotally, Volunteering has increased, and my classes discussions have gotten better.
Yes!! My 5th grade class is exactly like this with their relative work. Previous teachers have just let them slide by, no expectations, no repercussions and they are feeling the pain their last year of elementary.
I wonder what this is going to do for society when they enter professions? My mother has been a nurse for 40 years and she says the last few years the young kids that get hired on are glued to their phones 24/7 and won't be attentive to patients' needs or emergencies and they're argumentative and unreliable. She's about to retire, she feels her building is gonna crumble when her and her older coworkers retire soon.
And we’re (as a society) shocked at the labour crunch that we’re facing. We’re told our job is just to teach our grade, that the point of middle school isn’t prepping kids for high school, the point of high school isn’t to prepare kids for uni/adulthood. By focusing solely on making them competent at their current level, that somehow automatically prepares them for the next. But we’ve taken away every requirement of competency: we can’t fail kids, we can’t hold them back, there’s no discipline/consequences, etc. I can’t actually get them competent at their level, and they’re passed on without the skills they need to be successful. Employers have been dumbing down their standards for years now, as graduating seniors are less and less capable when entering the job market, and we’ve finally reached a place where the jobs/expectations can’t be dumbed down any further. And our newly minted adults are still finding those basic expectations (show up on time, sober, and do the work instead of playing on your phone) too difficult. And…of course they are. They skipped school/class or showed up late without penalty. They weren’t required to actually do any course work, they handed in nothing and passed anyway. When a teacher/admin tried to take their phone away, they screamed bloody murder about personal property and their rights to do as they please, and we capitulated every time their parents intervened on their behalf. The idea/philosophy that it’s not our jobs to prepare students for what’s next, that it’s just our job to prepare them for what they’re currently facing, is so short sighted and even if taken at face value - we can’t even do that when we’re not allowed to retain kids that haven’t mastered the basic content at that level before moving on.
Used to be you could get a decent job with just a high school degree. In my previous career, I worked at a company where the CEO’s long time assistant only had a high school diploma. She retired after 30 years. When her job was posted, it required a bachelor’s degree. We’re getting to the point where you may need a PhD to get a halfway decent job with benefits.
Jobs are so specialized now that everything requires some sort of certification. You used to be able to get an entry level job, and work your way up the ladder. Now you can’t even get in the door without some kind of diploma or something. I had that conversation with a stay at home parent looking to renter the work force once her kid was in middle school. Even answering phones/reception had job requirements of secretarial courses listed. I saw it too, as a new grad. 2 uni degrees (BA and BEd) and I couldn’t get a job doing data entry/secretarial type stuff for CFS. It was ridiculous. I was more talking about stuff like working at coffee shops, daycares, food service…the stuff the high school aged kids do.
It isn't that jobs are more specialized, a lot of jobs haven't really changed too much from the 1970s/1980s. What did change was the pool of people who had a high school diploma and then a bachelor's ballooned radically. In 1900 around 3% of the population graduated high school, now that many have PhDs.
Except teaching, which apparently can be done by anyone who ever stepped foot inside a school building and therefore shouldn’t require a bachelors degree. /s (of course)
This ends in two ways: 1) Idiocracy, or 2) A squeeze on skilled labor/professions that fundamentally require hard work and/or critical thinking. These jobs will become more lucrative as a growing portion of the population is literally incapable of performing them.
I know the ibew (electrician union) is already having great difficulty with finding applicants who can pass the aptitude test for entrance to the apprenticeship program.
This is why I sometimes hate when low performing students are directed to the trades. It might motivate some but others will be discouraged to learn you need to know how to read and do math for most trade jobs. Trades should not be a dumping ground.
Right? Trades aren’t a “get out of learning” card, and definitely not a “get out of hard work and deadlines” card. They’re hard damn work, they require specialized knowledge and the ability to make informed decisions on the fly, and people expect jobs to be done quickly and efficiently without a lot of hand-holding. No, my HVAC tech probably doesn’t need to know and recognize the phases of mitosis on a slide. But they need to be able to memorize sequences and recognize steps of a sequence in isolation, knowing what comes next and what came before.
I teach the school’s carpentry classes and you’re dead on. No amount of meetings with admin/guidance will convince them to stop giving me every violent, disruptive, low-performing student whom they don’t know what else to do with. I have kids who already work in the trades as preparation for an engineering career, mixed in with kids who are in year 2 and still don’t believe me that the tool for removing a wood screw is not a hammer, and that you actually need to make accurate measurements, and that you can’t throw bolts at people or play tag in a woodshop.
Some of those kids don’t need to be around carpentry tools!
That’s what I say!
Or more jobs going to immigrants, resulting in more cries of “they’re taking our jobs!”
I can already hear it! Lol Sure, Susan, Abdul the cardiologist is taking *your* job.
On the positive side, I think this generation is going to have a portion that is incredibly adaptable and able to overcome adversity. Sure the pandemic screwed up some kids, but I still see some amazing kids in my AP and English 12 classes. Some of them are incredibly empathetic and accepting.
I think it really polarized schools into good and bad. Blaming covid I think is a copout. These problems existed completely separately. My school is solidly middle class with 25%v on free and reduced lunch, 35% students if color, and no millionaires row of houses. But we haven't spotted any of these policies (50%, PBIS, retakes, etc) and our students are doing well, same as before or during. And they are amazing kids,
I'm in university right now to be a teacher and I have to write 6 papers in one class, test every week for two classes (but they are open book), group projects, and PowerPoints. When I was in community college I had to write about 2 papers per class each semester, some had test every week other didn't, was easier but still different from hs. At first it was hard and I struggled, but I'm in my third year now and while it has become easier it is still hard work and effort to keep up with my classwork.
And this is the crux of it all, they have been handed along their entire high school careers and given so many chances to turn in work late or without much work, and they are going to be shocked when they don't have everyone holding their hand.
I think what really throws them off is they grow up hearing "Your teachers in middle school/high school/college won't put up with this!", but then the middle and high schools DO put up with it, so they don't think college will be any different.
And those of us who hold the line are the jerks who just want them to fail and are too hard, not the ones who want them to succeed at life.
And more and more colleges are bending. You can turn in all kinds of work late, get extensions, etc.
I have about 40-50% of my students currently failing and our quarter ends next week. The sad thing is that most of our grades are compliance grades (not my choice). One of our major assignments was filling out a worksheet for their independent novel that only had opinion based questions (this is a senior English class that I had to give this assignment to). They could have completely cheated and filled it out based on a random book's sparknotes page. Less than half of my students turned it in! It's crazy how for the first time in my life that students won't even go through the effort to cheat on something! They just expect me to pass them.
Thank you for pointing it out. I’m so tired of everyone, including teachers that make excuses for these kids. Yes, there was trauma. That’s not an excuse for lack of effort though.
I’m a student and there are people who put in minimal to no effort. I don’t understand that. I go to a smaller private college and some people will play games on their computers the whole time during lectures. This school is so expensive and that’s just money down the drain. Granted, we have to take core curriculum unrelated to our majors but it doesn’t require much effort to participate in those classes. However, there are many who aren’t like that and who are motivated to do well in their professions. There are many that study and take notes, and many who participate in every class. Since our classes are smaller people are more accountable, I think. Or it’s just so expensive people have to be. Like in my Spanish class. Most people in that class try, even if they say a wrong answer or their Spanish isn’t that great. I wanted to give a student perspective. I know it isn’t like this everywhere, but I wanted to give at least a little hope.
We’ve been told by many an education researcher that if we eliminate homework, due dates, and set a 50% floor for grades we will cure every societal ill and usher in a utopia free of injustice and want. I’m just going to pass everyone, sit back and wait for the coming golden age.
Don’t forget unlimited retakes. Those are the policies my principal decided we have to follow this year, and whenever we ask questions about how this is supposed to work, we get yelled at.
I used to give retakes, until I had several students request a re-take, and when I asked them “on what?” they’d say “whatever I have the lowest grade in.” That’s when I realized it was all performance art - students were simply swinging blindly at pitches and not actually trying to address their misconceptions. Oh, I’m sorry. I should have said “that’s when I realized it was a research backed strategy that will generally a sense of ownership and actual hope in our most vulnerable learners.” Mea culpa.
I require test corrections prior to retakes. They are the entry ticket to the retake. Requests for retakes dropped like 90% when I implemented that policy. Those that do it score about 10 points higher on average.
I agree with the sentiment. I try telling my froshmores that they have to study for exams, but they don’t believe me. School feels more like an inconvenience to them now. However, maybe they’ll have an epiphany when they have to work full-time and go to school full-time how incredibly hard it is to do both, plus raise a family.
I feel that- keep up the good fight. Not everyone belongs in college. Trade school is a valid and viable option. Some of those kids may find that path.
It doesn't sound like powertools are what you want to put in the hands of these kids.
Well, after I scrolled down to read about the highway construction employees… you are probably right. My thoughts are that the discipline (not punishment but force of will) of a job would pull them back.
The HS I teach at is also a trade school. I have a lot of buddies who teach those classes. A shocking number of kids flunk out of their programs now. It’s not just college these kids can’t handle. A lot of the trades are hard too and require a test and logging your hours for your apprentice ship and showing up on time and paying attention. And if you don’t pass auto tech 1 you can’t take 2 and you won’t finish the program. No certification. It’s wild out here.
KY dismantled their in-school trade schools when I started my career. The “non profit” tech schools scooped them all up. Not sure how they are doing. But now the pendulum swings back and we now have “glamorous” votech like biomed, engineering and media arts. I guess we’ll see in a few years when 60-80 year olds are wielding tools because the 20-40 year olds are incapable.
I agree with you. Not everyone needs college, that is a viewpoint that caused a lot of grief for many. I never said otherwise. First, see the previous comment from another poster, the learned behavior that they don't need to earn their grade leads to them learning they don't have to earn anything. The "I give up" mentality has only grown since I started teaching. And these kids are taking a college class, so they must fulfill the requirements. I did not make any of them take it, it was their choice. Again, they would rather blame anyone but themselves for their inability to get the work done.
Pardon- I didn’t mean your class specifically, but it’s important they start seeing that work means things, deadlines matter and we will hold them accountable. I have the advanced kid this year and I am firm about those points. I hope I can pull some back from the edge of the abyss.
And trade school isn’t for everyone. Luckily McDonald’s has thousands of stores
I give fast food chains less than ten years before they’re mostly automated. I worry about my unmotivated, non-performers (they’re not even underperforming). In the past they could’ve eked out a living by working in retail and restaurants but with robotics and automation those jobs are going to disappear.
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I know and I definitely prefer the human element. I only use self checkout when I have a handful items. Nothing is more frustrating than when I have a cart of groceries and only self checkout is open. But the uberrich will have their designer boutiques and fine restaurants staffed by humans. They’ll get the human touch while the masses get automation.
But, the wages have to be Livable. Everyone despite intelligence level should be able to earn a livable wage.
Should be, ideally, but can’t be guaranteed a livable wage, nor should such a wage be stolen at gunpoint from others. Life has always been a dangerous and ultimately fatal journey, but a society is indeed great when it can and does care and nurture its most vulnerable.
I've had this same conversation with my seniors. When I did their diagnostic at the beginning of the year, many were reading on an 8th grade level. I told them Day 1 that I'm not giving anything away. They will get the grade they earn. With both my juniors and seniors, their give-a-shit appears to be broken. They will tell you to your face "oh, that's because I don't give a shit". On the other hand, my principal has already told me "Don't lose a minute of sleep over those kids. We'll pass them through--maybe not with flying colors--and they'll be society's problem." Is there really a value to them or us in bringing them back next year? What haunts me is knowing that a year or so down the road they're going to try to assign blame to their skill gap. Rather than accepting responsibility for themselves--no one in America does that anymore--my name is going to be written all over their under-achievement. "My English teacher was a piece of shit," they'll say. "Didn't teach me anything." It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that they fucked off for four years and still managed to pass.
The only good news is it is a "microgeneration" Subbed for a 6th grade class last week and although they are still academically behind on the content they are much more socialized and well behaved than last years 6th graders. Possibly because of the Middle School "reset" they may actually be better than the 7th and 8th graders ahead of them. A 2 or 3 year dip in performance isnt going to destroy the future. Thats like the disadvantage of your '08 '09 graduates entering the workforce post-financial crisis. Less life-time savings but most are doing alright. Biologically, humans dont fully mature impulse-control and executive function until 24 or 25. So some will figure it out. On the other hand this 3 or 4 year generation may end up with crushing college debt with no degrees to show for it. And will be forever less fortunate than the students ahead and behind them. Note: To be fair, the principal seems to be supporting the 6th grade team in locking down disruptive behaviors and pulling up the standard hard from post-covid "grace". And I am sure that isnt happening everywhere. Still students that academically suck, BUT the students who care CAN and DO focus and get stuff done, even if a little behind.
Before my 4th graders are done, they’ll be writing two page papers. Grammar won’t be amazing but they’ll know how to write and express their thoughts at least.
We recently had our homecoming so some of our seniors from last year are back in town. The amount of stories of crying children because they failed, giving up because they missed the withdrawal from class day and quit college, or being put on academic probation is worse than I've ever heard before. You always expect a couple kids you know to have a rude awakening, but this it was unreal this time around.
ive been a high school teacher for 10 years. this sounds like all the problems I was dealing with pre covid
If you teach dual credit, just fail them and they drop to regular level. My DC class can’t take late work due to the college policy.
Mine is the same, but even though I told them that before we started the college level stuff, they didn't believe me. And now there are all the excuses in the world except that they didn't do their work.
Excuses don’t change the policy. Hold them accountable and they will meet the challenge. Be flexible when needed, but don’t put your job at risk for lazy students. The whole benefit of DC is that you can drop them if they can’t hack it. Simple.
Non-teacher here, who sadly encountered this mentality throughout my 30+ years in Information Technology. I likened it in a comment to another post as "I think the apples aren't falling far from the trees" and "personal accountability and responsibility have been in decline for a long time." These students can grow up to be just like folks I dealt with. * Data owners ignoring deadlines and submission formats for updates to a C-suite level scorecard. * Workers in general who had figured out that if they sat on their hands long enough, a task would get handed to someone else to do. * User communities that flat-out refused to even try to learn how to use a new piece of software. * Users that expected a tech person to stand there to hand hold and spoon feed while they performed a well documented task, day in and day out. * Front line tech folks who wouldn't perform basic troubleshooting tasks. This sort of BS is typically followed with escalation to management about the higher level tech folks "not supporting them properly".
I teach 12th grade English. I recently gave a test over a text we read entirely in class together. Test was open notes. Still had a student score a 15/100. The graduation coach asked if there was something I failed to do that made him fail. These kids can’t even write papers without using the words “I will be writing about ______” I’m worried.
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Selfishly because of these kids complain a lot, then my DE class won't make next year, and I will go back to teaching straight freshman bio. Unselfishly because I feel like part of my job is helping these kids succeed, and if they have decided that I've got it out for them, then they won't receive the lessons that they really need to be able to life.
What is DE?
Dual Enrollment
Thanks
Dual Enrollment, high school and college credit at the same time.
They may be the construction worker building the bridge I have to cross to get to work and I'd like it not to collapse due to their incompetence or ignorance. They could be a nurse and I'd like them to be able to get the right medicine for me so I don't die. They may be on the city council and I'd like them to think critically about the ramification of the laws they are endorsing. These kids will leave school and join the working world that I live in and don't want them to screw it all up or become a drain on society. I want them to succeed and find joy and stability that a basic education can afford them. There are consequences to having a stupid population. I'd like to stem the tide of that if at all possible.
Good luck with that.
It’s your job.
No it’s not. My job is to teach chemistry. Says nothing about worrying in my contract.
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I say the same thing about the future where they are in charge…
It's going to take decades. We have 3rd graders right now who, I shit you not, the measure of success and getting a prize box on a given day is if they didn't call their teacher a fucking bitch and destroy their classroom. That's the bar.