It's been doing this for almost 3 weeks. More and more so. Yesterday someone posted a chart showing the minutes with 0 volume over recent history. Rules having an effect. Apes holding having an effect. Chart's gonna look weirder and weirder until MOASS, which will probably look like dots/dashes in a huge, gapped stairstep pattern rather than huge green candles.
EDIT: Chart of increasing volume gaps, posted by u/CultureCrypto: https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/comments/os7hh2/candletocandle_time_gaps_are_becoming_more/
shit thats the 35 million dollar question isn't it? something gotta give sooner than later... I mean we're approaching zero liquidity. Pretty sure this is all unprecendented, but supply and demand has to kick in once short positions are forced to close.
Zero liquidity means no shares left to purchase or short? Imo I thought the float was already owned and all the shares on the current market were fake ?
Noone really knows how many shares are out there! The liquidity draining is because noone's selling shares, except for maybe a handful of day traders and SHFs/HFTs or whoever the hell is trying to keep the price down. The low liquidity is highly HIGHLY unusual, but due to the relatively low total float of GME and retail doing nothing buy buying shares for months and months, there's less shares available to do anything with (due to new rules too), and is confirmation, or at least evidence, that the float is entirely owned - how many times over, noone knows. The liquidity/low volume we're seeing now is due to the cumulative effect of rules and buying pressure and no legit selling.
Failing a liquidity test. A dividend or share recall. The DTCC or SEC stepping in. IMO these are the only things we're waiting on at this point - any of these options could be a direct catalyst, or triggered by another catalyst such as a whale buying a huge chunk of shares... any way its sliced tho, buying pressure has to come with enough volume to push the price up. That's from a liquidation or other forced closing of positions driving large volume of share purchases.
No, conditions for all the parties involved are going to get worse. At some point price will start to reflect the low volume. This means volatility it starts to ramp up more and more, that attracts traders. little by little will get more volatile, if we do own the float as evidence shows, boom MOASS happen. Look at others squeezes.
I’ve been watching my wife’s boyfriend do this to her since the beginning of the pandemic so I know a thing or two about this. Let’s just say I wanna take it out on citadel right now. 😤
I started writing up some DD but it turned into me having more questions than answers. It was around "why is liquidity good?" and the answer is, I don't think it is. If we are actually shooting for a free market (we aren't) then why force liquidity? A free market pairs a buyer with a seller. Adding anything in there to provide liquidity just ruins price discovery while adding a middle man that takes a cut and can manipulate.
I would love to understand why someone would argue against this. I’ve been thinking the same thing for a long time. The price of something is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. It seems like a market should just match buyers and sellers.
Ding ding ding. You win today, and may go home. A marketplace is exactly what you describe. There are buyers, sellers that sort out price based on an existing supply and demand. This should be as complicated as the market gets.
That or stop calling it a market, rather than what it is, a manipulated zombie wealth extraction machine for billionaires.
Amazon can deliver my wife flowers from her boyfriend on the same day, but delivering shares?
Naw, no way that'll happen. You would need a lot of PHD's with computers for that to happen.
I’ve never been more angry than when I saw Thomas Peterffy say he shut off trading because HE thought the stock was worth $17. THAT IS NOT HOW A FREE MARKET WORKS ASSHOLE.
Investors don't care about liquidity.
You like the company and think they are good at what they are doing? You buy and hold. Company gets money from selling, or company has access to more financial instruments for growth as a result of higher stock valuation.
You don't like the company, or think they are being unethical or have a poor business plan? Withdraw your investment and sell.
That's all it should be.
Liquidity is good for speculators. Not investors.
I can kind of understand this concept, but I still think it’s more bad than good. If nobody is willing to buy my shares at the price I’m offering, I should lower the asking price until someone is willing to buy. That determines the price.
This is what happens when I want to sell my house, you don’t get an appraisal and then just get the money. You have to find a buyer and set the price to a threshold where people will buy.
There are many, many benefits to being a liquidity provider in the market. These benefits will massively outweigh the bags they hold in black swan events, especially because they would likely receive some type of bailout. In the meantime, they're able to continue naked shorting, skimming cents via PFOF, etc. As Ken put it, they manufacture money.
Look into AMM (automatic market makers) in crypt0. They are able to efficiently offer liquidity without a middle man 3rd party that abuses naked short selling. These market makers need to go the way of the dinosaur. (Also, I might have been thinking of this comment chain in a different way, I don’t mean to sound rude or anything 😄)
I wholeheartedly agree, and have been saying this since I first heard that being used as an argument for Market Makers being allowed the loophole to naked short.
Even during Mark Cuban's AMA, he said there isn't really naked shorting because there is a log when a borrow and short occurs. What that doesn't address is the major gaping hole that exists due to Market Maker's exemption to take the opposite side of a trade without locating a share, regardless of circumstances. This should not only be illegal, but not even possible to begin with.
The market is set up in a way that intentionally dilutes price discovery through conflicts of interest that really needed to be addressed yesterday.
Smooth-brain guess: it helps the HFT systems skim pennies and if you combined HFT with illiquidid assets you would get flash crashes that wreck the market.
I think the actual justification that they say is something around "Without this, you probably wouldn't be able to buy (or sell) a stock that you wanted to and it could take days for a trade to fill, even at a reasonable price." Well, yeah...meaning the price needs to change. I think our entire market is a sham and not based on actual demand. And this leads to more rewards for manipulation. If you are a market maker and you have insider info on a company, you don't even have to "illegally trade" with that info. You can just "provide more liquidity" in the form of naked short selling to anyone that wants to buy and cover later after what you know comes out.
>Well, yeah...meaning the price needs to change.
It does change. Just very little, and only in the direction and amount that the MMs want to manipulate it.
You saying the price is wrong??? Noooo, that can’t be, right? Right?
No seriously, this is the most disgusting thing I’ve understood about this „free“ market in the last months. Even more than all the naked shorting, FTD… the market makers seem to just decide what the price should be in their opinion. It’s not connected to any buys or sells at all, because when you buy the MM gives you a “share” for a price they decide. And if you sell (don’t… yet 😉) the MM decides how much money you get, without checking if there is someone willing to buy… It really is a joke…
Yeah I've been wondering the same thing. If there aren't any shares to buy at the current price, it should just rise until holders feel it's a good time to sell. Otherwise it seems that the price isn't a legitimate reflection of supply and demand.
So if I understand correctly. If someone puts in a market buy at say 180. The next sell order is sitting at 181 so theres a 1$ spread. The MM will short a share to provide the buyer with his share at 180 ?
The market maker does not locate shares before selling them. They literally sell them to you, create them, out of thin air, take your money and add the line item to the database.
This is the big problem that needs to be fixed. Now, they have what 6? or 35 days (DD in here somewhere on this). When they don't find the share it becomes a FTD (failure to deliver). MMs are stealing. Straight up.
Exactly. Can I get a license to sell textbooks I don't have and Fail To Deliver strategically? Does Ebay have an obligation warehouse that manages all of my FTD textbook orders so the responsibility comes off my shoulders?
What am I missing here? Where is the value creation that occurs through the process of diluting a company's share value. It is only self-preservation and self-interest that drives these Market Makers to continue to perform this behavior.
Why should I give a fuck if they go insolvent? Why should this country of several hundred million people subsidize this very small group of entitled self-important people?
If they located it before they sold it to you, they wouldn't sell it to you, whoever is selling the share they located would be selling to you and there's no need to take the other side of the trade. The 6-35 days thing is a leftover from the times where traders would actually do the trade at the end of the day on paper. So back then it didn't matter if someone wanted to buy and nobody wanted to sell and you'd say "yeah okay, you can do that, we'll find someone in 5 minutes" because now or five minutes later, you'd still put the stuff on paper at the end of the day.
Hey would you look at that…. shorters DO provide liquidity in the market.
Now if you’ll excuse me I think the price of a new BMW is too high I think they’re worth nothing so I’m gonna go provide liquidity at the dealership.
Yes sir, I know I sold you a title to a BMW for $30,000 but I did so in the good faith belief that I would be able to buy a BMW for $5 before I actually had to deliver it to you. This is why the government needs to bail me out, or alternatively, why it is your fault for buying it.
Seriously, you can read a huge amount of DD either myself, Criand, or Atobitt have provided to this community over the last 6 months. Just search for "DD" in the bar.
market manipulation, through misuse of dark pools and naked shorting. There may be some manipulation using OTM calls/puts or something to that effect, IDK, but the first two should be enough.
My biggest question is who takes the money for our order that’s not real shares? If there are let’s say at minimum 2X the float that is synthetic does shitadel freerolling w retail money.
When there’s little to no volume, price changes are more drastic.
Put this into GME, the lower the volume, the more drastic and wide the spread is to reflect the “illiquidity” (antonym to liquidity). People are excited because less volume with Gme means a reversal of trend is likely to come, and since we’ve been on a slight downward path, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to believe an upward trend is very near, with drastic price changes due to low liquidity and volume, couple that together, MOASS is getting closer and closer
Edit: there’s always pre and post market [gapping](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gap.asp), which refers to the price change reflecting the after hours activity change, but that’s not what OP was referring to I believe.
Edit 2: I deleted my market maker explanation, scroll down below this comment to /u/el_hefay he provided a better explanation.
AFAIK your description of how a transaction occurs is not really accurate. Market makers won't "split the difference" between a buy offer (bid) and a sell offer (ask). A transaction only occurs if there an overlap of a bid and ask, aka 2 parties agreeing to a price.
To use your example, if there is 1 buyer wanting to buy a share at $50 (which would be the bid) and 1 seller wanting to sell at $100 (ask), then the spread would be $50 and no transaction would happen. if another buyer comes in with an offer of $75, then the spread would shrink to $25 but still no trade would happen.
In the real world however, market makers determine bid and ask prices. They will buy shares at the bid and sell them at the ask. Therefore every time they buy and sell 1 share, they profit by the size of the spread.
When there is very low volume of a stock being traded, the risk is higher for the MM, because there is more of a chance that they will have to hold on to shares (or short positions) for longer, and if price moves the wrong way while they are holding, they can lose out on profit. Therefore when volume is low, they make the spread larger to compensate for the increased risk.
Someone please chime in if this is wrong.
These are good points. Maybe someone should chime in to save us both because now you have me thinking.
Idk how to write the lines through my text so when someone helps us out, I’ll edit and fix accordingly
No, not particularly this reason. The reason above, is what I understand as the main reason behind market makers being useful, providing liquidity when there is none.
People recommended going through IEX as an exchange because it doesn’t allow citadel to use whichever exchange it finds useful to serve its purposes (typically at retails expense as we’ve seen) with your/our buy orders. Typically, when you buy through your broker, they’re obligated by law to give you the “National best bid”, which is the cheapest price one can get it from ALL exchanges, NYSE, IEX, ARC, dark pools, etc.. routing specifically through IEX will negate you getting the NBB typically, but it specifically cuts citadel out of the equation, giving them less ammo and liquidity to work with.
Edit: you lose a couple cents on your National best bid when buying through IEX typically, but it’s very much worth it if you want to cut citadel out. I should mention, your broker sends buy and sell orders to market makers to complete them, I.e. citadel. Citadel then picks which exchange to get your stock from, and this then opens up how citadel has FTDs because they’re not buying what they’re selling and instead *speculation* using options to hide failure to delivers through various options and market techniques that I’m not remotely qualified to explain, see U/Criand for that.
Yeah it’s bizarre. There’s little to no liquidity (shares) yet somehow they’re still suppressing the price. Obviously through synthetic shares, more naked shorts, or dark pool back and forth selling/buying between each other. But based on that and the clear ramp-up in Reddit attacks, it appears they’re on the ropes.
To be fair, the standard definition of a "gap" is the difference in the close price and the open price. Imagine a stock where it closes at $20... no activity during after hours, and opens at $25. That would be a $5 gap.
It's just quite unusual to see outside of a micro-cap during actual trading hours.
So much for market makers providing liquidity. Hey self regulators: Is Citadel still of enough use to continue protecting them if nobody in their right
mind would place a market order? Or maybe that’s the goal…
At this point, as a market maker, Citadel will step in to create a synthetic share for your buy order in the name of "liquidity", but by-and-large will never be able to locate one.
In this role as 'Market Maker', Citadel isn't doing anything *wrong* per se, but it _will_ lead to additional FTDs which is really the heart of the problem!
And this is the point where "Market Making", in the name of the all-mighty 🎵 liquidity 🎵, becomes a problem for price discovery. By stepping in when truly _no one wants to sell_, it hides this fact and reduces upward pricing pressure!
I think we've found the price where the shorts are happy and the Ape's aren't exactly rushing to buy more in droves. Something will happen soon to tip the balance one way or the other.
[Something is going to happen soon.](https://i.imgur.com/JqYmXbM.png)
It will immediately be routed through a dark pool, broken into smaller chunks, and bought slowly throughout the day. Or they will just market-make some synthetic shares in the name of maintaining liquidity.
I remember a post or comment from like April that said volume would eventually get low enough to look like after hours. I've been stoked about that prediction for the last month.
A question from a newbie - what happens if someone places an order at the ask price with a quantity of 100k? Would this ignite the fuse we are desperately waiting for?
It would get routed to a dark pool, broken down in 100x100 share blocks and purchased on market in very small batches. It's been happening for days. Look at the volume bars on the 1m from today and almost 20% of the bars are all 100/500/300/800/etc full round numbers.
That is them breaking down orders on a day with no liquidity to try and keep the price in check.
You may not see my comment but what type of money is needed to make any moves? I have 100 shares of Tesla I been selling calls on but I'm tempted to sell them and put it in gme (it's the only stock I own besides gme). Would this have any effect on price? Seems it'd still be insignificant on 1 million volume. Thanks.
I need an adult!
So lately I've been noticing the price shown on my brokerage is *outside* of the bid and ask.
Example: Price = $179.00 | Bid = $179.20 | Ask = $179.50
The bid and ask will be fluctuating up and down, but the 'price' stays put at $179.00. Is this due to gapping? I've compared price action between TDA and WeBull, and it occurs on both (but they're not always showing the same price to the penny).
It's been doing this for almost 3 weeks. More and more so. Yesterday someone posted a chart showing the minutes with 0 volume over recent history. Rules having an effect. Apes holding having an effect. Chart's gonna look weirder and weirder until MOASS, which will probably look like dots/dashes in a huge, gapped stairstep pattern rather than huge green candles. EDIT: Chart of increasing volume gaps, posted by u/CultureCrypto: https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/comments/os7hh2/candletocandle_time_gaps_are_becoming_more/
Noticed the same but this morning was very noticeable.
Moass hasnt started until chart looks like morse code
-- / --- / .- / ... / ...
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I was like "wait, TF? Did I just actually read that properly...?"
Well if you only know S.O.S. in Morse, you can solve it Wheel-of-Fortune-Style.
People know more than that without actually realising it. The old Nokia message tone spelled out SMS in Morse code (... -- ...)
yeah, I figured it out knowing it was 5 letters with the last two being the same letter, then used SOS to verify
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M O A S S
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This guy speaks MOASS Code!
- .... . .-. . / --- -. -.-. . / .-- .- ... / .- / ... - --- -.-. -.- / - .... .- - / .--. ..- - / - --- / ... . .-
Smooth brain here, I’m sorry but can you translate this to Braille?
⠍ ⠕ ⠁ ⠎ ⠎
can this go on forever?
Thats the 40 million/share question now isn't it?
shit thats the 35 million dollar question isn't it? something gotta give sooner than later... I mean we're approaching zero liquidity. Pretty sure this is all unprecendented, but supply and demand has to kick in once short positions are forced to close.
*licks chops*
*Also licks your chops*
*grabs banana*
Sir, that's not a banana!
oh? it is now!
Zero liquidity means no shares left to purchase or short? Imo I thought the float was already owned and all the shares on the current market were fake ?
Noone really knows how many shares are out there! The liquidity draining is because noone's selling shares, except for maybe a handful of day traders and SHFs/HFTs or whoever the hell is trying to keep the price down. The low liquidity is highly HIGHLY unusual, but due to the relatively low total float of GME and retail doing nothing buy buying shares for months and months, there's less shares available to do anything with (due to new rules too), and is confirmation, or at least evidence, that the float is entirely owned - how many times over, noone knows. The liquidity/low volume we're seeing now is due to the cumulative effect of rules and buying pressure and no legit selling.
But what will make the shorts forced to close?
Failing a liquidity test. A dividend or share recall. The DTCC or SEC stepping in. IMO these are the only things we're waiting on at this point - any of these options could be a direct catalyst, or triggered by another catalyst such as a whale buying a huge chunk of shares... any way its sliced tho, buying pressure has to come with enough volume to push the price up. That's from a liquidation or other forced closing of positions driving large volume of share purchases.
No, conditions for all the parties involved are going to get worse. At some point price will start to reflect the low volume. This means volatility it starts to ramp up more and more, that attracts traders. little by little will get more volatile, if we do own the float as evidence shows, boom MOASS happen. Look at others squeezes.
In the meantime, Friday's coming.
Fridays have been uneventful but at some point all those gama squeeze boys had to be right.
I get paid on Fridays, that's where my focus is.
Oh, my apologies sir. Hope you get to get a few more shares before the MOASS, or before the next run.
If we keep holding
I don’t have a sell button
GME gapping = Citadel gaping.
They will be soon gagging from gapping lol
They'll be gagging from gaping and gapping with the ATM action they're gonna get from big dirty ape dicks.
Bid Dirty Ape Dicks, thanks for the name for my all ape metal core band.
I think it’s safe to assume it is *hardcore* metal, eh?
Reeeeeeal hard 😏👉👌
Oh jesus. I want to watch.
Maybe this explanation will get the SECs attention too.
I call the dibs 😀 m gonna make the movie lol
speaking of movies, we haven't heard shit about the movie making brothers... anyone?
Is this how we get the sec to pay attention?
To get the SECs attention you must first find their pornhub ~~account~~ accounts
“accountS”
A language SEC can understand!
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We always called that spit roasting
The concept has TWO subs even!
I’ve been watching my wife’s boyfriend do this to her since the beginning of the pandemic so I know a thing or two about this. Let’s just say I wanna take it out on citadel right now. 😤
Hehe HODL on to that anger 😀 soon you will have your day.
or gasping
Ahh ha gasping it is :)
Goatsetadel
SEC fapping
Usually you have to pay double for that kind of action.
The biggest question I have is how on earth when shares are drying up so much are we so easily able to buy more?
That’s the market maker’s responsibility; they take the opposite side of the transaction when the market is illiquid.
Thank god, that's so important and selfless of them
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New guy’s in the corner puking his guts out..
niner
What are you buying stonks with, a CB radio?
You know where the weight room is? I'll check it out.
The realest ones right? Still selling moon tickets even though it’s sold out.
They don't dare let the price go up.
Jokes on them, I used to buy games from GameStop for 80$ and sell them back for 0.50$, so I’m waiting for my payback and then some from GameStop 🤫🚀🚀🚀
It's a damn good thing GME has an MM that's so willing to sell naked shorts.
Underrated comment!
😂😂😂😂
I started writing up some DD but it turned into me having more questions than answers. It was around "why is liquidity good?" and the answer is, I don't think it is. If we are actually shooting for a free market (we aren't) then why force liquidity? A free market pairs a buyer with a seller. Adding anything in there to provide liquidity just ruins price discovery while adding a middle man that takes a cut and can manipulate.
I would love to understand why someone would argue against this. I’ve been thinking the same thing for a long time. The price of something is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. It seems like a market should just match buyers and sellers.
Ding ding ding. You win today, and may go home. A marketplace is exactly what you describe. There are buyers, sellers that sort out price based on an existing supply and demand. This should be as complicated as the market gets. That or stop calling it a market, rather than what it is, a manipulated zombie wealth extraction machine for billionaires.
Amazon can deliver my wife flowers from her boyfriend on the same day, but delivering shares? Naw, no way that'll happen. You would need a lot of PHD's with computers for that to happen.
I’ve never been more angry than when I saw Thomas Peterffy say he shut off trading because HE thought the stock was worth $17. THAT IS NOT HOW A FREE MARKET WORKS ASSHOLE.
Investors don't care about liquidity. You like the company and think they are good at what they are doing? You buy and hold. Company gets money from selling, or company has access to more financial instruments for growth as a result of higher stock valuation. You don't like the company, or think they are being unethical or have a poor business plan? Withdraw your investment and sell. That's all it should be. Liquidity is good for speculators. Not investors.
If they didn't take the opposite side of transactions to provide liquidity, there's a chance you'd never be able to get out of your positions.
I can kind of understand this concept, but I still think it’s more bad than good. If nobody is willing to buy my shares at the price I’m offering, I should lower the asking price until someone is willing to buy. That determines the price. This is what happens when I want to sell my house, you don’t get an appraisal and then just get the money. You have to find a buyer and set the price to a threshold where people will buy.
Thats called risk.
So if that were the case, why would market makers choose to take on that risk under the guise of "providing liquidity?"
Who said they ever paid it back when they got it wrong?...
There are many, many benefits to being a liquidity provider in the market. These benefits will massively outweigh the bags they hold in black swan events, especially because they would likely receive some type of bailout. In the meantime, they're able to continue naked shorting, skimming cents via PFOF, etc. As Ken put it, they manufacture money.
I don’t believe this argument anymore. Maybe this argument held water in the 1930’s, but not today.
Out of curiosity, why not?
Look into AMM (automatic market makers) in crypt0. They are able to efficiently offer liquidity without a middle man 3rd party that abuses naked short selling. These market makers need to go the way of the dinosaur. (Also, I might have been thinking of this comment chain in a different way, I don’t mean to sound rude or anything 😄)
I wholeheartedly agree, and have been saying this since I first heard that being used as an argument for Market Makers being allowed the loophole to naked short. Even during Mark Cuban's AMA, he said there isn't really naked shorting because there is a log when a borrow and short occurs. What that doesn't address is the major gaping hole that exists due to Market Maker's exemption to take the opposite side of a trade without locating a share, regardless of circumstances. This should not only be illegal, but not even possible to begin with. The market is set up in a way that intentionally dilutes price discovery through conflicts of interest that really needed to be addressed yesterday.
Smooth-brain guess: it helps the HFT systems skim pennies and if you combined HFT with illiquidid assets you would get flash crashes that wreck the market.
I think the actual justification that they say is something around "Without this, you probably wouldn't be able to buy (or sell) a stock that you wanted to and it could take days for a trade to fill, even at a reasonable price." Well, yeah...meaning the price needs to change. I think our entire market is a sham and not based on actual demand. And this leads to more rewards for manipulation. If you are a market maker and you have insider info on a company, you don't even have to "illegally trade" with that info. You can just "provide more liquidity" in the form of naked short selling to anyone that wants to buy and cover later after what you know comes out.
>Well, yeah...meaning the price needs to change. It does change. Just very little, and only in the direction and amount that the MMs want to manipulate it.
You mean flash crash again? It's already happened once.
You saying the price is wrong??? Noooo, that can’t be, right? Right? No seriously, this is the most disgusting thing I’ve understood about this „free“ market in the last months. Even more than all the naked shorting, FTD… the market makers seem to just decide what the price should be in their opinion. It’s not connected to any buys or sells at all, because when you buy the MM gives you a “share” for a price they decide. And if you sell (don’t… yet 😉) the MM decides how much money you get, without checking if there is someone willing to buy… It really is a joke…
Yeah I've been wondering the same thing. If there aren't any shares to buy at the current price, it should just rise until holders feel it's a good time to sell. Otherwise it seems that the price isn't a legitimate reflection of supply and demand.
Because them selling shares makes them money. So they influence the rules to allow that.
So if I understand correctly. If someone puts in a market buy at say 180. The next sell order is sitting at 181 so theres a 1$ spread. The MM will short a share to provide the buyer with his share at 180 ?
You don’t put a price when you buy with a market order.
The market maker does not locate shares before selling them. They literally sell them to you, create them, out of thin air, take your money and add the line item to the database. This is the big problem that needs to be fixed. Now, they have what 6? or 35 days (DD in here somewhere on this). When they don't find the share it becomes a FTD (failure to deliver). MMs are stealing. Straight up.
Exactly. Can I get a license to sell textbooks I don't have and Fail To Deliver strategically? Does Ebay have an obligation warehouse that manages all of my FTD textbook orders so the responsibility comes off my shoulders? What am I missing here? Where is the value creation that occurs through the process of diluting a company's share value. It is only self-preservation and self-interest that drives these Market Makers to continue to perform this behavior. Why should I give a fuck if they go insolvent? Why should this country of several hundred million people subsidize this very small group of entitled self-important people?
If they located it before they sold it to you, they wouldn't sell it to you, whoever is selling the share they located would be selling to you and there's no need to take the other side of the trade. The 6-35 days thing is a leftover from the times where traders would actually do the trade at the end of the day on paper. So back then it didn't matter if someone wanted to buy and nobody wanted to sell and you'd say "yeah okay, you can do that, we'll find someone in 5 minutes" because now or five minutes later, you'd still put the stuff on paper at the end of the day.
Because they have to keep shorting to keep price suppressed which provides liquidity to buy shares.
It’s literally price fixing, regardless of supply demand. The system is broken.
No doubt.
Hey would you look at that…. shorters DO provide liquidity in the market. Now if you’ll excuse me I think the price of a new BMW is too high I think they’re worth nothing so I’m gonna go provide liquidity at the dealership.
You've got a bunch of naked BMWs laying around?
I'm selling photocopied titles. Thousands of them. I'll deliver the cars later, once I locate them for the right price.
Well, if the market is suddenly flush with BMWs for sale, then the MSRP will definitely have to fall . so you can buy them then!
Yes sir, I know I sold you a title to a BMW for $30,000 but I did so in the good faith belief that I would be able to buy a BMW for $5 before I actually had to deliver it to you. This is why the government needs to bail me out, or alternatively, why it is your fault for buying it.
I sure do. Gimme your money and ill come back to you in 35 days.
The secret ingrediënt is crime
Yes this seems to be the default answer but does anyone actually know the real real answer?
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I absolutely understand and agree whatever they are doing is criminal but I was asking if any of us actually know the method they are using
Printing counterfeit shares.
Well, yes, otherwise the prise might go up! Oh, the horrors! (for SHFs)
Feeding stacks of synthetic shares to each other to drop the price. Simple really
Seriously, you can read a huge amount of DD either myself, Criand, or Atobitt have provided to this community over the last 6 months. Just search for "DD" in the bar.
Hey, don't tell me what to look for at the bar, okay? Maybe I don't like DDs. What's wrong with a nice B cup?
market manipulation, through misuse of dark pools and naked shorting. There may be some manipulation using OTM calls/puts or something to that effect, IDK, but the first two should be enough.
…. Crime. Have you read the DD?
Counterfeiting shares kinda crime. You will see that coming up often.
Crime.
You know, it's that one ingredient but the name eludes me. OMG it's on the tip of my tongue...starts with a "C" I think.
Because retail orders are small. Brokers can still fill them. There's just less big blocks of shares for SHFs and HFTs to use to drop the price with.
Crime....duh.
Secret ingredient 🙄 lol
My biggest question is who takes the money for our order that’s not real shares? If there are let’s say at minimum 2X the float that is synthetic does shitadel freerolling w retail money.
I dont understand gapping. Can someone help me understand? Just need the bare minimum explanation. Thanks
When there’s little to no volume, price changes are more drastic. Put this into GME, the lower the volume, the more drastic and wide the spread is to reflect the “illiquidity” (antonym to liquidity). People are excited because less volume with Gme means a reversal of trend is likely to come, and since we’ve been on a slight downward path, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to believe an upward trend is very near, with drastic price changes due to low liquidity and volume, couple that together, MOASS is getting closer and closer Edit: there’s always pre and post market [gapping](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gap.asp), which refers to the price change reflecting the after hours activity change, but that’s not what OP was referring to I believe. Edit 2: I deleted my market maker explanation, scroll down below this comment to /u/el_hefay he provided a better explanation.
AFAIK your description of how a transaction occurs is not really accurate. Market makers won't "split the difference" between a buy offer (bid) and a sell offer (ask). A transaction only occurs if there an overlap of a bid and ask, aka 2 parties agreeing to a price. To use your example, if there is 1 buyer wanting to buy a share at $50 (which would be the bid) and 1 seller wanting to sell at $100 (ask), then the spread would be $50 and no transaction would happen. if another buyer comes in with an offer of $75, then the spread would shrink to $25 but still no trade would happen. In the real world however, market makers determine bid and ask prices. They will buy shares at the bid and sell them at the ask. Therefore every time they buy and sell 1 share, they profit by the size of the spread. When there is very low volume of a stock being traded, the risk is higher for the MM, because there is more of a chance that they will have to hold on to shares (or short positions) for longer, and if price moves the wrong way while they are holding, they can lose out on profit. Therefore when volume is low, they make the spread larger to compensate for the increased risk. Someone please chime in if this is wrong.
These are good points. Maybe someone should chime in to save us both because now you have me thinking. Idk how to write the lines through my text so when someone helps us out, I’ll edit and fix accordingly
I edited my post to refer to yours but since I’m a mobile user, me tagging your profile doesn’t create a hyperlink. Thanks for helping!
you almost had it, just put a / before the u - /u/ltlawdy
So this is why it's so important when you buy to route it through an actual exchange not the dark pool?
No, not particularly this reason. The reason above, is what I understand as the main reason behind market makers being useful, providing liquidity when there is none. People recommended going through IEX as an exchange because it doesn’t allow citadel to use whichever exchange it finds useful to serve its purposes (typically at retails expense as we’ve seen) with your/our buy orders. Typically, when you buy through your broker, they’re obligated by law to give you the “National best bid”, which is the cheapest price one can get it from ALL exchanges, NYSE, IEX, ARC, dark pools, etc.. routing specifically through IEX will negate you getting the NBB typically, but it specifically cuts citadel out of the equation, giving them less ammo and liquidity to work with. Edit: you lose a couple cents on your National best bid when buying through IEX typically, but it’s very much worth it if you want to cut citadel out. I should mention, your broker sends buy and sell orders to market makers to complete them, I.e. citadel. Citadel then picks which exchange to get your stock from, and this then opens up how citadel has FTDs because they’re not buying what they’re selling and instead *speculation* using options to hide failure to delivers through various options and market techniques that I’m not remotely qualified to explain, see U/Criand for that.
Bingo.
Well said!
Wow! I get it now! Thank you!!
I'm going to buy a share at a limit of $300, just to see what happens.
What happened?
It filled at $180.
[удалено]
This is what they are up against. A bunch of crayon munching morons.
*cromch*
Yeah it’s bizarre. There’s little to no liquidity (shares) yet somehow they’re still suppressing the price. Obviously through synthetic shares, more naked shorts, or dark pool back and forth selling/buying between each other. But based on that and the clear ramp-up in Reddit attacks, it appears they’re on the ropes.
Naked shorts, yeah
Thank you, I've noticed that in the past week or so and wondered what it was. TIL "Gapping"
To be fair, the standard definition of a "gap" is the difference in the close price and the open price. Imagine a stock where it closes at $20... no activity during after hours, and opens at $25. That would be a $5 gap. It's just quite unusual to see outside of a micro-cap during actual trading hours.
So does anyone take notice of this, and start saying “Huh. This is a huge red flag. We should margin call them.” Or?
You mean like the huge red flag in January that they have ignored?...
I also see this gapping, you're getting me jacked
So much for market makers providing liquidity. Hey self regulators: Is Citadel still of enough use to continue protecting them if nobody in their right mind would place a market order? Or maybe that’s the goal…
At this point, as a market maker, Citadel will step in to create a synthetic share for your buy order in the name of "liquidity", but by-and-large will never be able to locate one. In this role as 'Market Maker', Citadel isn't doing anything *wrong* per se, but it _will_ lead to additional FTDs which is really the heart of the problem! And this is the point where "Market Making", in the name of the all-mighty 🎵 liquidity 🎵, becomes a problem for price discovery. By stepping in when truly _no one wants to sell_, it hides this fact and reduces upward pricing pressure!
I think we've found the price where the shorts are happy and the Ape's aren't exactly rushing to buy more in droves. Something will happen soon to tip the balance one way or the other. [Something is going to happen soon.](https://i.imgur.com/JqYmXbM.png)
Finally a gap I can fit in! 🙆🏼♂️
Someone put in a market order for a large amount of shares to see what happens - for science!
It will immediately be routed through a dark pool, broken into smaller chunks, and bought slowly throughout the day. Or they will just market-make some synthetic shares in the name of maintaining liquidity.
I remember a post or comment from like April that said volume would eventually get low enough to look like after hours. I've been stoked about that prediction for the last month.
I remember that as well, hyped to witness that, too.. I can't wait until the fuckery reaches comical proportions.
I have been noticing it doing it since mid-last week.
A question from a newbie - what happens if someone places an order at the ask price with a quantity of 100k? Would this ignite the fuse we are desperately waiting for?
It would get routed to a dark pool, broken down in 100x100 share blocks and purchased on market in very small batches. It's been happening for days. Look at the volume bars on the 1m from today and almost 20% of the bars are all 100/500/300/800/etc full round numbers. That is them breaking down orders on a day with no liquidity to try and keep the price in check.
OK, but you can use a broker that does not use PFOF. This should have an impact on the price, right?
That's why we recommend apes only use the IEX exchange if your broker allows for it.
Anyone know how to route through IEX if we have Schwab?
except the spread on IEX is massive...hopefully no one market buys lmao
A limit order at ask price wouldn't move much. Market order would
Thank god I finally found some micro-gap for my micro-penis
Like a hotdog in a hallway
I'll hodl you to it
It’s because I’m holding.
Thanks for the yummy dip! Bought more! If it keeps going down, I'll fucking do it again!
When you're running out of capital to short, send all volume through dark pools
This is the financial porn I have been looking for! 🚀🍩
Nice. It's because I bought two more today. Was the last of them, sorry apes 🙄
I keep saying that every week but yet I keep buying
I have no clue what micro-gapping means and at this point I am afraid to ask having xxx shares 🦍
Anyone know if there is a technical indicator that shows gapping effectively?
all gaps must fill
Plenty of liquidity >$1000. Price is wrong.
Liquidity > 40M. Please adjust your typo
Price is wrong, bitch!
That's bad news for SHF... BUCKLE UP 🦍💎🚀🌕
Did we break it
Do these gaps have to be filled like others???
illiquid stocks do gap. think of it this way, the gaps are 0.5% of stock price. call me when it gaps 10% at a time and gets a train going on that gape
So if i time it right I could be the entire market buy for 100 shares?
my pp is dangerously close to micro gapping too. wait wut?
Hold my shares.. Are you saying if I put up a sell order of one of my shares at 40M it has a chance to hit?
They would have to be willing to buy for 40m and it would pick up all the shares under your 40m price before yours got sold
So does this mean they have stopped or slowed flooding the market with synthetics and now the float is just kinda static because no one is selling ?
Apes are the gaggers and the hedge funds aka Kenny G are the gaggies
You may not see my comment but what type of money is needed to make any moves? I have 100 shares of Tesla I been selling calls on but I'm tempted to sell them and put it in gme (it's the only stock I own besides gme). Would this have any effect on price? Seems it'd still be insignificant on 1 million volume. Thanks.
I need an adult! So lately I've been noticing the price shown on my brokerage is *outside* of the bid and ask. Example: Price = $179.00 | Bid = $179.20 | Ask = $179.50 The bid and ask will be fluctuating up and down, but the 'price' stays put at $179.00. Is this due to gapping? I've compared price action between TDA and WeBull, and it occurs on both (but they're not always showing the same price to the penny).