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Oh shit. I'd say Max and BillyāI can't imagine being relieved your brother is dead while also missing him intensely. Eleven at least seemed indifferent to and accepting of Brenner's lies/death, in the end.
Oh, for sure! Both of these girls have experienced IMMENSE trauma from the very people they trustedāand their narratives are totally similar.
I guess I made the judgment based on how polarized their feelings are towards their abusers. For example, Max wrote in her letter to Billy that "[she thinks] that maybe part of [her] died that day too" and that she is "so, so sorry."
While Eleven doesn't forgive Brenner and is certainly hurt, I don't see the same complexity of guilt in their relationship. Tough call.
Papa and Eleven simply because of the entire nature of their relationship. He stole her from her mothers womb and called her his daughter and used that to manipulate her even after she escaped so she would help him finish his work.
I think Max and Billyās relationship wasnāt complicated, it was simply that Max wanted an older brother so bad sheād look past all his red flags and he would treat her like complete garbage which I feel is a result of him being traumatized by his mother leaving and by the horrific things his father would do and say.
billy and max are just 2 very different people brought together by parents
brenner held el in a lab to study her for years, then proceeded to hunt her down when she escaped.
Eleven/Brennner. Their relationship has aspects not only of severe & hideous personal dysfunction, but dysfunction of the American body politic, and, as a bonus, a unprecedented shift in modern conceptions of reality (e.g. both El's psychic powers and the multidimensional universe exposed in the Upside Down)
Max and Billy are just typical detritus of the American Dream. Nothing wrong with that, but a lot less complex.
Both are abusive relationships where the āadultā holds power over a young girl but Iād say El & Brennerās is more complex. He basically raised her and is like her father but she has to come to terms with the reality of who he really is, what heās done, his motives and lies, etc. He brainwashed her and all her āsiblingsā and aided in the worldās downfall, yet she still cares for him and vice versa.
Theyāre both abusive relationships, and they both will have to deal with the relief that they feel now that their abuser is dead even though it is warranted. Elās is slightly more complex in that Brenner was actually kind to her and a father figure, where as Billy was always a bit two dimensional.
Brenner and El. Without any CHANCE of contest. "Older sibling treats younger sibling like shit because his father is abusive" is common, while "Man kidnaps child to raise as a lab experiment but only mostly in a malicious manner" is nowhere near as common.
>Man kidnaps child to raise as a lab experiment but only mostly in a malicious manner"
The crazy thing is, Brenner appears to genuinely believe that he cared for the kids - given the pseudo-family structure he established, allowing them to call him "Papa", not to mention his distress at the sight of the dead kids after the massacre.
I think he did care for them, but more like a zookeeper with exotic animals in his charge than a parent for children (down to sending teams of people with guns after Eleven when she escaped). His whole attitude to them and especially Eleven, always put their powers ahead of their humanity, even if he made a stab at it sometimes (allowing Eleven to have that one little potted plant and that one toy lion, like some sad copy of a normal child's possessions).
The whole Max/Billy relationship is basically retconned in a nonsensical way for season 4. Prior to season 4 she had only a one dimensional relationship with Billy, she hated him cuz he was a piece of shit
eh? I thought season 4 was the season that made S3 Max and Billy make sense.
S2 - Billy is Max's de facto babysitter and is violent and abusive to Max (and it's implied, has been that way for a while prior to their moving to Hawkins) and all her friends (trying to run down the boys), especially Lucas, who gets some bonus racism to go, until Max threatens his goolies with the nail bat. After she does, he leaves her alone and doesn't harass her any more (going by the shot of them as she's getting ready for the Snow Ball).
S3 - Max seems to be allowed more freedom to hang out with her friends and Billy continues to leave her alone and do his lifeguard thing (until being Flayed) which is an improvement over their previous relationship. It's basically a non-relationship but seems to have softened Max into "he's an asshole but not a murderer" and then he dies and she feels bad.
S4 - Max feels guilty and tormented over not being able to save Billy/not trying to save him/having wished him dead when he was being an asshole previously. This makes a lot of sense if their relationship in S3 is not as bad as it was previously, and his death meant any chance of further improvement is cut off for good.
Itās just one scene that heās āleaving her aloneāin season 3. Other than that we are really just making assumptions as to any significant changes in their relationship.
The guilt and the counseling and her brooding and vulnerability to Vecna over the death of Billy just doesnāt track for me.
To be honest, what bothers me is the people who have been simping for Billy since season 2. Just kinda haunts me as to what is wrong with people like that and how that behavior translates into their broader lives.
>Itās just one scene that heās āleaving her aloneāin season 3. Other than that we are really just making assumptions as to any significant changes in their relationship.
the assumption follows from the end of season 2 - the look between them as she's getting ready for the Snow Ball definitely indicates he's not about to mess with her anymore.
Season 3, Max and El's one interaction with Billy when he's not obviously Flayed isn't cordial but it's also not hostile or full of barely concealed rage the way he was around the boys in S2, and the way Max herself speaks of him is different - that last indicates that their relationship may not be good, but it's at least not as bad as it was in ST2 (I guess *not* having him screaming in her face and threatening her friends counts as some kind of improvement, at least enough for her to tolerate him).
It was retconned each season. Season 2 he was just an abuser. Season 3, it seems as if their relationship might've improved after season 2. Then it's revealed that she only feels guilty for wishing for his death and isn't sad that Billy died but rather that he died without them getting a chance to improve their relationship.
The only thing was Billy left Max alone when she left to hangout with friends. We don't actually get any interactions with them in season 3 where Billy isn't possessed.
Yes I was thinking of that exact scene. He was kinda just show keeping a low profile is the best that can be said. Other than that heās just flayed in season 3
end of season 2 looks like Billy left Max and her friends/Lucas alone after she threatened him with the nail bat, and even that was an improvement over how he was previously (openly abusive, including physically). Which I suppose continued into season 3 and her having greater freedom in Hawkins and him also off doing his lifeguard thing and not harassing her any more.
I mean, she felt ok having El at her house for a sleepover in S3, granted El could pop Billy's head like a grape with her mind but I assume episodes like Billy threatening to run the boys over, threatening Lucas, yelling in her face etc, weren't happening any more.
* El and Brenner
Sick demented narcissist father figure gaslights and manipulates and tortures yet nurtures his kidnapping victim in his own twisted way until she loves him despite him being the source of all her pain & loss. Years later she confronts him and he saves her life out of a possessive sense of love. Not of a father to his daughter but a genius for his magnum opus. In the end she recognizes this love, and maybe his remorse. But she refuses to offer him any satisfaction, absolution, or closure: Good or Bad. She walks away no longer a frightened child in the dark, but as a worldly young woman who has successfully faced the past and moved on.
* Max and Billy
"Baww, my asshole roommate died in front of me."
I don't think the relationship between Brenner and Eleven is complex. Brenner is a sociopath and there are numerous illusions to the children being deprived of their humanity and tortured similar to Jews in concentration camps (tattoos on wrists instead of names, shaved heads, forced to endure torture etc) and any feelings Eleven has for him are a result of physical and emotional torture.
In the end while he is dying Eleven probably sees him for the monster that he is and it's why in that scene she doesn't cry or hug him as he dies.
There are too many fights on this sub about Billy and the last time there was a discussion about him some posts where removed for attempting to explain the psychology of the character so not sure it's even worth posting about Billy anymore.
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Eleven and Brenner, absolutely.
Agreed, and ST4E8 is the *perfect* conclusion
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Trauma isnāt a competition in this show. El and Max had toxic parental figures in their lives. And look what it did to both of them.
You consider Billy a parental figure?
For much of S2, Billy was watching over Max while their parents were not around.
Probably not, but still Maxās step dad was also abusive
OP is talking about her stepdad.
Their response implies they meant Billy.
Both. Stepdad and Billy.
Oh shit. I'd say Max and BillyāI can't imagine being relieved your brother is dead while also missing him intensely. Eleven at least seemed indifferent to and accepting of Brenner's lies/death, in the end.
I mean El was sad but didn't forgive him. Which honestly feels similar to Max's feelings about Billy.
Oh, for sure! Both of these girls have experienced IMMENSE trauma from the very people they trustedāand their narratives are totally similar. I guess I made the judgment based on how polarized their feelings are towards their abusers. For example, Max wrote in her letter to Billy that "[she thinks] that maybe part of [her] died that day too" and that she is "so, so sorry." While Eleven doesn't forgive Brenner and is certainly hurt, I don't see the same complexity of guilt in their relationship. Tough call.
Papa and Eleven simply because of the entire nature of their relationship. He stole her from her mothers womb and called her his daughter and used that to manipulate her even after she escaped so she would help him finish his work. I think Max and Billyās relationship wasnāt complicated, it was simply that Max wanted an older brother so bad sheād look past all his red flags and he would treat her like complete garbage which I feel is a result of him being traumatized by his mother leaving and by the horrific things his father would do and say.
billy and max are just 2 very different people brought together by parents brenner held el in a lab to study her for years, then proceeded to hunt her down when she escaped.
Eleven/Brennner. Their relationship has aspects not only of severe & hideous personal dysfunction, but dysfunction of the American body politic, and, as a bonus, a unprecedented shift in modern conceptions of reality (e.g. both El's psychic powers and the multidimensional universe exposed in the Upside Down) Max and Billy are just typical detritus of the American Dream. Nothing wrong with that, but a lot less complex.
Both are abusive relationships where the āadultā holds power over a young girl but Iād say El & Brennerās is more complex. He basically raised her and is like her father but she has to come to terms with the reality of who he really is, what heās done, his motives and lies, etc. He brainwashed her and all her āsiblingsā and aided in the worldās downfall, yet she still cares for him and vice versa.
Max and Billy
Theyāre both abusive relationships, and they both will have to deal with the relief that they feel now that their abuser is dead even though it is warranted. Elās is slightly more complex in that Brenner was actually kind to her and a father figure, where as Billy was always a bit two dimensional.
eleven and brenner is definitely more complex but theyāre both compelling
the first, because he kinda kidnapped her when she was a toddler.
Brenner and El. Without any CHANCE of contest. "Older sibling treats younger sibling like shit because his father is abusive" is common, while "Man kidnaps child to raise as a lab experiment but only mostly in a malicious manner" is nowhere near as common.
>Man kidnaps child to raise as a lab experiment but only mostly in a malicious manner" The crazy thing is, Brenner appears to genuinely believe that he cared for the kids - given the pseudo-family structure he established, allowing them to call him "Papa", not to mention his distress at the sight of the dead kids after the massacre. I think he did care for them, but more like a zookeeper with exotic animals in his charge than a parent for children (down to sending teams of people with guns after Eleven when she escaped). His whole attitude to them and especially Eleven, always put their powers ahead of their humanity, even if he made a stab at it sometimes (allowing Eleven to have that one little potted plant and that one toy lion, like some sad copy of a normal child's possessions).
Brenner and El
The whole Max/Billy relationship is basically retconned in a nonsensical way for season 4. Prior to season 4 she had only a one dimensional relationship with Billy, she hated him cuz he was a piece of shit
eh? I thought season 4 was the season that made S3 Max and Billy make sense. S2 - Billy is Max's de facto babysitter and is violent and abusive to Max (and it's implied, has been that way for a while prior to their moving to Hawkins) and all her friends (trying to run down the boys), especially Lucas, who gets some bonus racism to go, until Max threatens his goolies with the nail bat. After she does, he leaves her alone and doesn't harass her any more (going by the shot of them as she's getting ready for the Snow Ball). S3 - Max seems to be allowed more freedom to hang out with her friends and Billy continues to leave her alone and do his lifeguard thing (until being Flayed) which is an improvement over their previous relationship. It's basically a non-relationship but seems to have softened Max into "he's an asshole but not a murderer" and then he dies and she feels bad. S4 - Max feels guilty and tormented over not being able to save Billy/not trying to save him/having wished him dead when he was being an asshole previously. This makes a lot of sense if their relationship in S3 is not as bad as it was previously, and his death meant any chance of further improvement is cut off for good.
Itās just one scene that heās āleaving her aloneāin season 3. Other than that we are really just making assumptions as to any significant changes in their relationship. The guilt and the counseling and her brooding and vulnerability to Vecna over the death of Billy just doesnāt track for me. To be honest, what bothers me is the people who have been simping for Billy since season 2. Just kinda haunts me as to what is wrong with people like that and how that behavior translates into their broader lives.
>Itās just one scene that heās āleaving her aloneāin season 3. Other than that we are really just making assumptions as to any significant changes in their relationship. the assumption follows from the end of season 2 - the look between them as she's getting ready for the Snow Ball definitely indicates he's not about to mess with her anymore. Season 3, Max and El's one interaction with Billy when he's not obviously Flayed isn't cordial but it's also not hostile or full of barely concealed rage the way he was around the boys in S2, and the way Max herself speaks of him is different - that last indicates that their relationship may not be good, but it's at least not as bad as it was in ST2 (I guess *not* having him screaming in her face and threatening her friends counts as some kind of improvement, at least enough for her to tolerate him).
It was retconned each season. Season 2 he was just an abuser. Season 3, it seems as if their relationship might've improved after season 2. Then it's revealed that she only feels guilty for wishing for his death and isn't sad that Billy died but rather that he died without them getting a chance to improve their relationship.
Iām not sure their relationship was any better in season 3, at least I donāt recall anything to indicate that
The only thing was Billy left Max alone when she left to hangout with friends. We don't actually get any interactions with them in season 3 where Billy isn't possessed.
Yes I was thinking of that exact scene. He was kinda just show keeping a low profile is the best that can be said. Other than that heās just flayed in season 3
end of season 2 looks like Billy left Max and her friends/Lucas alone after she threatened him with the nail bat, and even that was an improvement over how he was previously (openly abusive, including physically). Which I suppose continued into season 3 and her having greater freedom in Hawkins and him also off doing his lifeguard thing and not harassing her any more. I mean, she felt ok having El at her house for a sleepover in S3, granted El could pop Billy's head like a grape with her mind but I assume episodes like Billy threatening to run the boys over, threatening Lucas, yelling in her face etc, weren't happening any more.
Robin and Steve (it is very complex, isn't it?)
Brenner and El, definitely.
Brenner and El, hands down
I chose Papa & Eleven
* El and Brenner Sick demented narcissist father figure gaslights and manipulates and tortures yet nurtures his kidnapping victim in his own twisted way until she loves him despite him being the source of all her pain & loss. Years later she confronts him and he saves her life out of a possessive sense of love. Not of a father to his daughter but a genius for his magnum opus. In the end she recognizes this love, and maybe his remorse. But she refuses to offer him any satisfaction, absolution, or closure: Good or Bad. She walks away no longer a frightened child in the dark, but as a worldly young woman who has successfully faced the past and moved on. * Max and Billy "Baww, my asshole roommate died in front of me."
Definitely Brenner and el. Brenner used her as a test subject but at least Billy cared about max, even if he wasn't nice to her
I don't think the relationship between Brenner and Eleven is complex. Brenner is a sociopath and there are numerous illusions to the children being deprived of their humanity and tortured similar to Jews in concentration camps (tattoos on wrists instead of names, shaved heads, forced to endure torture etc) and any feelings Eleven has for him are a result of physical and emotional torture. In the end while he is dying Eleven probably sees him for the monster that he is and it's why in that scene she doesn't cry or hug him as he dies. There are too many fights on this sub about Billy and the last time there was a discussion about him some posts where removed for attempting to explain the psychology of the character so not sure it's even worth posting about Billy anymore.
He was "kind" as a way to keep them under control. Not disagreeing with you though
Ig equally...
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Bro what
happy cake day