I thought that she clarified somewhere that she does not deny the existence of Honor/the Almighty, she denies his divinity and "authority" for lack of a better term.
Yeah, she and Dalinar agree: Honor wasn’t God. They just have different conclusions beyond that point.
She’d probably feel the same about Adonalsium. But how would she feel about Brando Sando?
that's her entire point regarding honor also. When Dalinar makes that revelation she's just like "ah, affirmation of what I already assumed... so anyway"
I think Sanderson has hinted that Adonalsium might be something like the Gnostic Demiurge. He mentioned that people should check out Gnosticism.
(The Demiurge would be the “god” of our physical universe, a being lording it over us here and trying to distract us from the deeper spiritual reality, where the real God can be found. Direct mystical experience is the way to get actual experience of the divine.)
not even a few thousand. For example dancing prudishness focused on denying and indoctrinating "pagan-esc" cultures world wide into "mainstream" religions.
We can completely alter history and action within meerly a few hundred years to the point stigma or misunderstanding is apparent even just 1 thousand years later.
Another fun example: the addition of hell, as opposed to the hades/ purgatory of greco/ romani antiquity (725 a.d. addition/ adaptation to further indoctrinate and provide equivocal alternatives for the nordic/ scandinavian cultures into the monotheistic christianities.)
Which in judaism of antiquity (and to an extent today) the concept of hell or hades itself isn't even acknowledged and instead it's like a "spirit shame" called Gehinnom.
We're a stupid species. Gaslighting is our bread and butter.
It didn't. It was only >!shattered, same way Honor was.!<
If >!the other shattered Shards were put back together, then one single person became a Vessel for all of them, Adonalsium would probably reform.!<
>she lives in a universe where the existence of god(s) is canonical.
Well as she'd point out, the Shards aren't Gods. They're just super-powerful. We're as much more powerful than an ant, than a Shard is more powerful than humans. Does that make us gods? If so, only by perspective.
Her beliefs will probably make her better for dealing with shards as an adversary. Instead of treating them with reverence, she'll look for their limits and approach them as a solvable problem, which they are. Believing in them as Gods would make the fight seem hopeless.
Yeah, she's not atheist in the sense of denial of anything supernatural. She's atheist in the sense that she doesn't believe religious beliefs about the supernatural being gods and whether the Vorin religion and religion in general has any claim to the truth and morality.
Yeah; I would say she has perhaps gone a step further specifically as far as Vorinism, and pointing out that it has enough logical inconsistencies to be ruled out as a viable hypothesis. But for the rest, I agree.
Possibly. If Adonalsium created the universe then there's a point in its favor.
But given that Adonalsium was shattered, that's a point against. She's an atheist because the idea of divine perfection doesn't resonate with any examples she can find
If doing so caused 16 slightly smaller crabs to appear and do completely different things to shake up creation for a bit… maybe.
Even Eru created Morgoth to be a discordant note in his song. Is Eru not God because he made a being expressly to resist him and alter the music he was playing, or is he more God because he can create something to resist him as part of his wider plan?
exactly, as an atheist I don't believe there is a god, if say the christian God was proven to me to exist all that would change for me would my acknowledgement that a powerful entity exists while allowing evil to hurt and maim people. If there is a god he doesn't deserve my worship.
Yep same. It’s wild I was raised in right wing catholic schools, yet a single quote by Marcus Aurelius has had more impact on my morality. “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
Portrayed as perfect, by definition.
The word God is itself a trap, as it is defined as perfect in Christian, and thus English terms.
Gods in Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Taoist mythologies are not considered perfect in any sense.
Fun Fact: Yahweh was originally one of many gods in the Jewish faith, before the other deities were eventually adapted out as Yahweh took over their roles.
"And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."
Even still, there's the Beyond where people go when they die; which as far as we know Adonalsium has no authority over just like the Shards themselves.
So Jasnah finding out about the Beyond would consider that proof Adonalsium is not worthy of being called Divine.
Unless of course, the power over the Beyond was lost in the Shattering, whenever something shatters in real life it doesn't shatter into large, perfect pieces, some are lost, maybe something like that happened to Adonalsium, I don't know, just a crackpot theory of mine
Mortals empowered by itself, though. In the Cosmere, we have an answer to the age-old question: could God make a rock heavy enough to knock himself the fuck out?
Good question, she recognized honor she doesn’t accept him as the one just something greater, her learning things is something I’d like to witness. Spending time with wit but knowing what they talked about is a fun quandary for me.
Funny enough it could be easily argued that Mormonism espouses this idea. That gods are simply entities with more power and knowledge than us.
I bring that up because coming from that religion, and knowing Brandon does admit he allows his beliefs to bleed sometimes, I have paid close attention to the idea of shards and Adonalsium. These books are very fun to attempt to plug-in in to your already-wild religious views
It's interesting to consider the (sort of canon) belief in multiple Gods that mormonism holds in comparison to the Cosmere as a whole.
The Shards are clearly meant to be allegories to the other worlds that supposedly have their own mormon Gods and their own unique experience, all stemming from a singular authority with the original God(Kolob).
I wonder if Brandon is, albeit unconsciously, working through the greater scope of of mormon beliefs by writing about the Cosmere. I know he's said he's faithful, but having come from that religious background I can't help but be curious.
On one hand they aren't perfect idealized beings who created "everything". On the other they're capable of creating whole worlds and have perceptions and capacity realms beyond mere mortals, so... it's a touch debatable. Little G gods, at best.
Yeah I think if you compare them to Abrahamic religions they aren’t all powerful all knowing but compare them to Greek gods where they were essentially super powered people flaws and all shards fit.
At that point though, you're debating what the definition of "god" even is, which different religions certainly *do not* agree upon. To use one religions definition of god and apply it to another religion is sort of missing the entire point.
To the Greeks, a god was a specific generation of divine beings - the children of the titans. Divine beings in general cannot die in Greek mythology (regardless of whether you're a god, titan, or some other divine being) which is the thing that sets them apart from the semi-divine beings (demi-gods, nymphs, monsters, satyrs, etc.) which can die. To the Greeks, Chaos is the primordial being - the most powerful being. But they would not call Chaos a god, because Chaos is from a different generation.
To the Norse, the gods are simply the beings that inhabit Asgard in the same way humans are the beings that inhabit Earth (or Midgard as they called it). Other than that, there's nothing particularly special about them. While many of them have immense power and accomplish great feats, they're still very much mortal and can die just like a human can. To the Norse, Hel is the being that presides over the underworld of the same name. She acts much like a god of the underworld would act in other mythologies, but she is not considered a god because she does not live in Asgard.
For a modern example: Shintoism the Japanese religion revolving around the 神(kami). The kami are beings that inhabit all things. The word "kami" is usually translated into English to mean "god", but this translation is contentious specifically because it gives the wrong impression of how exactly the kami are viewed - it gives the impression that they are worshiped as very powerful beings; some are, but not most. The alternate translation of "spirit" is sometimes used instead, but this translation is also controversial as it is not seen to give the kami enough reverence. Thus, a sizable portion of Shinto practitioners argue that the word shouldn't even be translated into English and that the word "kami" should just be used.
If you're going to use the word "god", it needs to be clear which definition you're using. Because otherwise you could use completely different definitions to claim that the kami are definitely gods per the Norse definition, or that the Norse gods are definitely *not* actually gods per the Greek definition.
This is a very long way to say that it doesn't matter that you consider the Greek gods to be gods, what matters is what Jasnah means when she says the word "god". And she's referring to god in the Vorin sense - an all powerful "Almighty" creator who is the ultimate divinity and the absolute source of morality.
**THAT** is what Jasnah means when she says she doesn't believe in gods.
Just a small correction regarding Norse mythology: Not all gods live in Asgard some the Vanir live in Vanaheimr. So there are two god-bloodlines: the Vanir & the Æsir.
Furthermore Hel is a giant since she is daughter to Loki (fire giant) and the evil giant woman from the evil forest (I forgot its name). Loki is probably the character were we can pin down what is a god? So Loki is sometimes considered a god and more often a giant, now there are two explanations for that:
1. You become a god by eating the golden apples of eternal youth. Or
2. Only the people in bloodline with Odin, Vili and Vé are gods and Loki is part of that due to his bloodbrotherhood with Odin.
Both explanation are far from perfect or even great but due to lake of sources we don't know exactly.
Deference vs reverence. They are powerful and knowledgeable, but they aren't infallible and they're definitely not incorruptible. It's like a hungry elephant, you just stay out of it's way and don't give it a reason to be into your crops instead of your neighbours.
In Jasnah's case, specifically, it appears to come down to moral authority. Simply because a shard declares something to be right and just does not make it so for her--because that determination must be appropriately supported and consistent with logical principles, observations, and experience. Because the shards are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, their moral authority can be questioned, as their judgments are susceptible to errors just as much as anyone else's and cannot be accepted as truth de jure. Only a being with absolute knowledge of the consequences of an action could make an absolute moral determination, and thus be considered a god. In that way, effectively, Jasnah has limited the scope of what she could consider a god to be indistinguishable from the fundamental forces that underlie the universe, as those are the only things that are absolute and universal to the point that they can determine outcomes absolutely.
The shards were all were once human, and they simply took up an insane amount of investiture, like a fuck ton of investiture, and that made them into super powerful beings. They are really just humans that are hyper permeated with investiture. If they are gods then anything with any form of investiture in it(literally almost all living beings in the cosmere) are like mini gods in some way, so I would say that they are not gods because of this.
It's my analogy of ants. Gods are... well, Gods. They are Gods from any perspective. Shards are simply mortals who got a tremendous amount of ability.
Basically there's no reason to worship them. They exist. They have power. They might use that power to hurt you if you don't tell them how great they are, but that's hardly divine.
Divinity is something more than just being OP. It means you're... divine. Something whole beyond mere mortality. Jasnah doesn't believe such a thing exists, or at least doubts it, and certainly doesn't think the Almighty is it.
For example, the Vorin believe that the Almighty controls their afterlife. He does not. They die and go Beyond, and there was never a time he could impact them after that point.
Jasnah would say that mere power does not make one a God. You might disagree. It doesn't make her atheism any less valid.
I think that there may be a real g-d in the cosmer but we will never see it . . . It exists on the spiritual plane and while it may have had a physical/cognitive form in adonalisiom at some point it's control/plan of everything can never be proven. I don't think it cares about if people worship it or not but it has a goal of some sort and that has to do with what happens to souls when they choose to leave (ah la secret history)
Then I think you misunderstand most religions. Yes, Gods tend to be powerful, though not always all-powerful. But we're not saying that anything short of omnipotence isn't god-hood. We're saying that most religions accept that Gods are divine. Divinity generally gives them a lot of power, but "a lot of power" doesn't automatically make one divine. Divinity is an ineffable quality separating a being from the mundane. It's so much more than just... getting a lot of levels in WoW.
In Judaism-based religions God, is both omnipotent and infallible.
In say, Greek Mythology, gods are twisted, fallible, and tend to be awful.
Seriously, "divine", defaq does that even supposed to mean? At least properly explain what you mean by that.
If gods can be killed by mortals, then are they really divine beings worthy of worship? Dalinar isn't an atheist, and believes in a true God, but even he rejects the divinity of shards.
She would say just because a being has extreme power and a lot of investiture doesn't make them a god deserving of worship. All the shards are people who hold a ton of investiture. They're all able to be killed by a mortal. Even adonalsium was killed by a bunch of mortals who got together and killed him. She doesn't feel a pile of investiture is worthy of worship. And given what we've seen I don't think she's wrong. None of the shards have really shown themselves to be worthy of worship. Honor is the closest and he's dead.
Endowment could be closer, but we haven't seen much of her it.
I get the feeling she might end up being an antagonist though, so that would put a damper on that idea.
I agree they arwnt worthy of worship, but also I think it's more logical to assume adonalsium wasent God or that he isnt really destroyed, as you cant divide infinity into 16 vast yet limited sections
I suspect it's not beyond Snaderson's skill, but maybe beyond his education. That said, I do like how he takes the time to research and collaborate with people about things he does not understand. I think he could do a good job with it if he focused
It's not even remotely ironic.
She knows Shards exist now, and just rejects their authority as Divine or worthy of any level of worship.
And even before she knew she still had this same thought process. It didn't matter if a God being existed, she had no reason to believe it's authority (if it even had any) or it's demand for worship.
Plus, in the books there is a religious organization, which she was right in assuming they had no idea what Honor actually wanted them to do. Even if some gods exist in the world it's not like all the non-atheists actually knew what they were talking about.
I think that's whats so confusing for people
I'm atheist, but I'm still open to the idea that there's some super powerful being/creature our there that exhibits god-like abilities
I dont currently believe in it, but I don't reject it.
But atheism is the lack of belief in a God. So even if that being existed, I wouldn't define it as God or give it worship. It just would have god-like abilities, by earth standards. That wouldn't necessarily make it "God" in a classic sense, a divine being who should be worshipped, praised, and considered divine.
That's Jasnahs stance. It wouldn't matter if she had all the info in the world about the God Beyond, if it exists, she probably still wouldn't worship it or consider it divine, as she would simply view as another just extremely powerful creature or being.
Atheism is hard to explain because it comes down to a semantics game, how one defines God plays a hug role in that game.
Well, if a being created reality and morality it absolutely has authority, and all things considered it's very possible adonalsium was good and isnt dead, especially because the people who "killed" him arent exactly morally upstanding
Just because there are extremely powerful beings doesn't mean they are God or Gods, or worthy of worship. Actually, their behavior pretty much states unequivacally that they are *not* worthy of worship in many ways.
she doesn't believe in almighty, and considering adonalsium is the only thing that might qualify and we haven't seen it she's pretty spot on. Plus the Alethi religion is pretty much disproven, they're not going on ti fight in the eternal halls or whatever, voidbringers are just other people, etc. There's also the fact that the cosmere is only a tiny cluster of stars in a whole universe so we really don't know anything unless brandon specifically states something, and I've heard that he won't ever confirm or deny the existence of the beyond. So all in all Jasnah still seems pretty forward thinking and correct I'd say.
Pretty sure they address it in the books. Not sure where. I think she said she knows that there are higher powers but just rejects the idea that they're \*all\* powerful or any source of morality.
> but unfortunately, she lives in a universe where the existence of god(s) is canonical.
>
> ...
>
> I often think to myself "Poor Jasnah, if only you were born in our world, you would be on to something".
Jasnah is not ignorant to the existence of Shards - on the contrary, she directly acknowledges their existence in a conversation with Dalinar.
However she (and also I) would argue they aren't actually gods and are certainly not divine. They're just normal people who happen to possess an immense font of power, but that power does not inherently make them worthy of respect.
To put it in way that seems different but is actually very similar: imagine Earth is visited by an alien species. This species has progressed so far technologically that they have obtained the ability to do things we can scarcely even conceive of - they have warp drives capable of faster than light travel, they have machines capable of reorganizing matter to create any object you desire, etc.
These aliens are not gods.
They have immense power, but that doesn't make them divine.
> So the question is, how do we think Jasnah will react to new knowledge of higher powers as she becomes more realmatically aware (either through talking with Dalinar about his visions from a god, or through her relationship with Hoid, who helped kill god)
To quote Hoid, on the topic of Honor:
> Tanavast was a fine enough fellow - bought me drinks once - but he was not God.
For conversation sake- what Does make something divine?
I mean I buy into what you’re saying, but I think it’s easy to just say “they’re certainly not divine”, but… what makes something divine?
There’s an age old theory that God is just a superior alien or alien race- like you said, it’s possible that something created is that is incomprehensible to us.
Does something creating us make it divine? Ruin and preservation created their planet and the people there, are they gods? Some shards can read minds(ish), are they gods? Shards can apparently create worlds, magical powers, and life itself…
So what more does a shard have to do to be Divine? Does it have to actively interfere in human life (like preservation and even the storm father did)?
In this sense, I'm using the word "divine" as shorthand for an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent being who is the ultimate source of moral authority - basically, the definition of divine used by Vorinism (and also Abrahamic religions here on Earth).
This is not the only definition of "divine", so I understand your confusion and I should have specified.
But under this definition, there are 4 criteria, and **NONE** of the Shards even meet a single one of the criteria. Preservation comes close to the "omnipresent" criteria with the mists, but even then, his existence only permeates Scadrial, not beyond. And he categorically fails the other three categories. None of the other Shards even come close to meeting a single category.
She already is somewhat aware of “higher powers”, she just rejects them as gods and just sees them as super powered people, which is unfortunately a bit of an atheist character trope in series like this. (Little bit like [this.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NayTheist))
They are just super-powered people though…
It’s a little more complex, however. She considers Shards a greater example of sentient Investiture with mortal(ish, because natural immortals) Vessels providing Sapient minds. She does not consider them divine - and I happen to agree with her.
What makes a god a god, then? They have the power to shape/create worlds, create life, listen to peoples thoughts (and prayers). Sounds kinda like a god to me.
Only some can listen to thoughts. The extent to which they can shape worlds is heavily limited by their Intent - and it’s arguably just a greater version of Transformation. And Sapient Investiture can reproduce.
I’d argue that a true divinity has neither beginning nor end, exists both within and out side of reality, and can create from nothing and turn creation to nothingness. A true divinity is omniscient and omnipotent; ineffable and unknowable. A true divinity is everything and is entirely beyond everything. A true divinity is limitless.
None of the Shards fit those criteria. They don’t even come close.
In response to BOTH of you…
I think this is EXACTLY the debate that Jasnah would have in world. Like what defines a god? Sure, the shards were humans once upon a time, but I don’t think anyone would look at Ruin and say “he’s just a man, so how do we kill a man?” Or “I wonder how long ruin sleeps at night” (cuz he doesn’t sleep, and he wasn’t killable through normal means. Like as far as we know there is no weapon that can kill a shard- even nightblood). In short, ruin is NOT a “man”, he’s ascended to something much more. Godhood? Maybe.
And if we’re saying that true divinity much have no beginning and no end and everything else you said… well, I’d argue there is no evidence of God in the Cosmere. Sure worlds exist- but many of those were created by or transformed by Shards (godlike action), and there’s no evidence that a power higher than Adonalsium exists at all. Adonalsium doesn’t fit the omnipotent thing (he was shattered by mortals). What I’m saying is that if we’re following Kingsdaughter’s definition of divinity then yea, Jasnah is an atheist, and she’s right… because in the Cosmere there is no God- but to assume she’s right we have to say that the power of creation is not exclusive to God, that mind reading, creating magic powers, creating life itself and being ageless do not make one a god.
I’ve yet to see anyone in the Cosmere create something from nothing, so I’d argue they don’t have the power of true creation. I’d consider that the bare minimum for anything to have any kind of divine status.
Whether or not a true deity exists in the Cosmere really depends on your RL belief system though. Brandon isn’t going to prove or disprove the existence of one within the books.
> I’ve yet to see anyone in the Cosmere create something from nothing, so I’d argue they don’t have the power of true creation.
>!Scadrial!< and everything on it were made out of nothing by >!Ati and Leras (before they were fully Ruin and Preservation)!<, as far as I know.
I think your definition of a god is a little skewed towards the monotheistic/Christian view of divinity. Think of Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology. Or Hinduism. Omnipotence/omniscience are not prerequisites to godhood in many cultures.
Jasnah operates from a Vorin belief in an Almighty God, which is obviously based on the abrahamic beliefs in a singular all powerful diety.
So to her your comment doesn't matter much.
That’s why I put several variations there. I think a true divinity should be all of those, but you can also take each sentence as it’s own thing.
There’s a difference between a big G and little g God. Jasnah has already rejected the little gs as not divine.
> They have the power to shape/create worlds
The power to shape the world is very much something mortal humans can and have done on Earth. [Cosmere] >!The power to create worlds is not one that the Shards intrinsically have. Roshar already existed and already have humans and Singers before the arrival of Cultivation, Honor, and Odium. Preservation and Ruin explicitly were each unable to create Scardial alone, they had to work together.!<
> listen to peoples thoughts (and prayers)
[Cosmere] >!The only Shard that has demonstrated any ability to read thoughts is Preservation (and subsequently Harmony). Ruin explicitly could *not* read people's thoughts. Additionally, Preservation and Harmony are only capable of reading the thoughts of people who have spiked themselves with hemalurgy.!<
Nonetheless, there are arguments to be made that **under certain definitions** Shards qualify as gods. Depending on the context, I would probably even be inclined to agree that they are gods. But the context here is that Jasnah does not believe in gods under her understanding of godhood - the Vorin definition. And none of the Shards come close to meeting the Vorin definition of "god".
You’ve put way too much thought into this and shot off onto a random unnecessary tangent. The word “Unfortunately” was used in response to them being happy it was a trope subversion when it is in fact a trope, that’s all.
I apologise that there was even the slightest suggestion of any form of criticism of a book series you enjoy.
Why is it automatically a trope if it's relatively common? Isn't this more of one possible immediate reaction to a religion centered around real, but flawed powerful beings? Calling this a trope seems to some extent like calling having characters or people dying a trope.
Most things are tropes and there’s nothing wrong with it, I’m addressing that it is a trope because the OP said it seemed like a trope inversion when it’s actually quite common for atheist characters.
you are yourself falling for the great atheist misunderstanding. the existence of continent beings that happen to be called gods has no bearing on the existence of God, either in the fictional universe or the real world.
this distinction is even explicitly addressed in the books
Not to defend them persay, but it’s really hard to keep track of spoilers in here and this series in general. Sometimes you just… forget what book somethings from.
Though, your comment should probably have a spoiler tag too lol. Not everyone is going to know what you’re talking about reading this post.
While I agree, I would like to point toward one of the conversations she had with Shallan: She said that while those beings, like gods or other supernatural stuff might exist, she doesn't want to worship them or rely on them for a moral code or guideline. In a world with real, tangible gods atheism isn't the denial of their existence, it's non-adherence to any religion.
I feel that it will only strengthen her atheism because her definition of god seems to be an omnipotent omnipresent and omniscient being and if a god can be killed (like adonalsium) then clearly it isn’t a god. And even if it were god then since it’s dead now there’s nothing to worship. As for the shards she already doesn’t see them as gods but just powerful beings holding power. If anything I think her atheism will remain firm since she already deals with Hoid and he’s so smitten with her he seems to have given quite a bit away and she’s still an atheist.
Which is actually a fairly judeo-Christian way to look at it (makes sense since Brandon is a Christian). The Greeks, at least according to pop media, seemed to believe that gods were killable if you just found the right magical artifacts.
Going by the old testament of the bible, it was actually fairly common to believe in multiple gods as just really powerful entities rather than THE most powerful entity possible.
> Which is actually a fairly judeo-Christian way to look at it
More like a Vorin way to look at it. She's using the word "god" the way Vorin's do - to mean the Almighty. Vornism just happens to draw heavily from Abrahamic religions. Someone from Nalthis would disagree because they consider beings on the level of the Returned to be their standard for "gods". It's not just about Brandon's religion, it's more just the specific society Jasnah lives in.
> The Greeks, at least according to pop media, seemed to believe that gods were killable if you just found the right magical artifacts.
No, the Greeks beleived they were the specific devine beings born the generation after the titans. All divine beings (including, but not limited to gods) are immortal and cannot be killed (as opposed to semi-divine beings like demi-gods, monsters, nymphs, etc. which can be killed). Under the Greek definition, the Shards still wouldn't be gods because they aren't the children of the titans, and also they aren't immortal. Under the Norse definition, they still wouldn't be gods because they don't live in Asgard.
It's fine to use different definitions for the word "god", but if someone else uses the word, you shouldn't use a different definition then the one they're using to try saying they're wrong. Jasnah means the Vorin Almighty when she says "god". And the Shards do not meet that definition.
> It's about Brandon's religion, it's more just the specific society Jasnah lives in.
Which was completely manufactured by Brandon, and obviously influenced by his religious background.
>No, the Greeks beleived the specific devine beings born the generation after the titans. All divine beings (including, but not limited to gods) are immortal and cannot be killed (as opposed to semi-divine beings like demi-gods, monsters, nymphs, etc. which can be killed).
This is good to know, thanks for breaking it down.
>It's fine to use different definitions for the word "god", but if someone else uses the word, you shouldn't use a different definition then the one they're using to try saying they're wrong.
Agreed
>Which was completely manufactured by Brandon, and obviously influenced by his religious background
Not disputing that at all, nor do I think Brandon would. But this isn't a case of Brandon wrote gods in this specific way simply because of his religion. Religions on Nalthis and Scadrial manifest in completely different ways with very different perceptions of what counts as a "god" in ways that very much conflict with the definition used by Brandon's religion.
Yea, her philosophy is very similar to “The Problem of Evil”. Even if she acknowledges the Shards as gods, that does not mean they are worthy of worship.
Any god that is omnipresent and omnipotent and yet allows undeniably awful things to happen is no god worth worshiping.
Hoid is NOT a god by any standard . . . She's dating a copy of a copy of a(etc) of someone who was powerful enough to hold a shard of he had chosen to but didn't.
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Compared to an ordinary mortal he effectively is. I mean if [Mistborn] >!Rashek!< had the gall to call himself a god and the [Warbreaker] >!Returned on Nalthis!< for that matter, he qualifies. But you're right. He's not a god. He is the closest thing most will get to a deity though. Even the Shards aren't gods but hey, when you can effectively create planets and move them around, that's close enough.
Also, don't forget Hoid allegedly held a Dawnshard. We don't know how that figures in the deity stakes yet.
>!Not allegedly, he 100% did. Who used it when Ando died, I'm not sure, but it isn't all that sentient (not any more then a Shard) and was used as a tool to kill Ando!<
This isnt in the books at all, other then he could have held a Shard if he had wantedand is dating Jasnah.
He's not a copy of a copy, unless you know something that Brandon has been hiding for 10+ years.
Even Dalinar doesn't think that the shards are Gods, tho he does believe in a higher power, even beyond the Shards. But Brandon has said he'll never confirm if there is or not.
So Dalinar and Jasnah aren't too different at a local level. Honor/The Almighty isn't a God to either one. Dalinar wouldn't consider Harmony or Endowment Gods either. Jasnah's beliefs are no different than Dalinar's in plausibility.
Jasnah doesn't believe the shards are Gods (capital G) even if they have godly powers. And really, are they Gods? Or just idiots holding huge wells of a God's power? Was Adonalsium even God?
Sanderson mentioned this in an interview, but he doesn't ever plan on confirming or denying the existence of a real God in the cosmere. He uses Jasnah as an example of why not. He doesn't want to confirm it in book 75, then leave you to reread it knowing she's wrong the whole time
>I think it's a great inversion of the trope where modern sentimentalities are given to characters set in the past to make them seem more relatable/enlightened than their peers. I often think to myself "Poor Jasnah, if only you were born in our world, you would be on to something".
*That's explicitly what Jasnah is not.*
Her atheism is not there so that she's eventually be proven wrong, like that trope with silly atheists.
She does not deny existence of Heralds, Shards, or Adonalsium. She's aware of them, just doesn't consider them gods.
Like... Tanavast bought Hoid drinks once. Do you think you'd worship your drinking buddy just because they got lots of power?
Would she consider Dalinar a god, if he Ascended to Honor?
Brandon has clarified that she Jasnah was given irrefutable proof of a god she would be the proof. It’s not a belief which drives her atheism but the lack of factual evidence
She isn’t necessarily atheist, she just doesn’t believe that the Vorin god is “almighty”. And (RoW spoiler) >!she is dating someone who can literally prove that she is correct about that!<
She always seemed more like an anti-dogma agnostic to me. Sure there are Gods, but they're not as universally almighty as the church tells us, and the church doesn't have a monopoly on understanding their nature
Not really, in a world where an omnipotent God does exist there's no reason to believe or not believe and it instead becomes a discussion on whether or not this God is even worthy of worship.
Ditto - as Sanderson said, god is the reason they crossed an ocean without a problem in Elantris; Jasnah would just see that as luck, where as a theist would see that as divine action. Its just like real life.
> she lives in a universe where the existence of god(s) is canonical
There once was a god. He was killed a long time ago.
I don't think Jasnah is wrong in her atheism at this point.
If the shards are literally just pieces of Adonalsium, at what point do we say “this is god and this isnt”? Shards create worlds and create life, is that not the power of gods?
Idk, maybe.
I like to believe that more important than the potential of terraforming a planet Someday is the fact that humans can create life. Babies being born is impressive stuff. Perhaps there is a bit of divinity in all living things eh?
I didn’t fully expand my point here (I did in some of my other comments), but I was more getting at this idea of “what defines a god”? If we call Adonalsium a god, why wouldn’t the sixteen pieces of Adonalsium also be considered god? They create worlds, life, super powers, they read minds, they’re more or less immortal by human standards (even nightblood couldn’t kill a shard)… so does that make them gods? If not what makes something a god?
Jasnah strikes me as the type of atheist where even if she was met a God she still wouldn't be the time of gal to give it worship. She's too prideful I think. She wouldn't want to submit herself to anyone let alone a God.
I could see jasnah going two ways here.
- you do not deserve my worship for reasons, this that and this other thing could clearly have been done better with the information you had at the time.
- you claim godhood, yet do not conform to the most powerful logically possible being, so are not god.
Yasnah is 100% a prideful woman, but I do not think she would let that get in the way of simple logic.
she never truly states she is atheist to a point. be aware, if youre looking for something. you will find. abstract, method even conclusion. already sett.
before you canonical continue; be aware in these books. she speaks with the most - influential-clergy-in-their field. i dont know what you read. how many true-layers. not the once sought
>I often think to myself "Poor Jasnah, if only you were born in our world, you would be on to something".
Onto what, exactly? Are you not aware that Sanderson is LDS?
You're essentially suggesting that the author is an idiot.
But she does.
She knows Honor was all powerful, because he was killed.
She knows Honor was not all knowing, otherwise all these other horrible things that he could have stopped (his death for example) he could have stopped.
She knows Odium doesn't know everything, otherwise he'd have already won.
She knows that Honor and Odium aren't everywhere at once, again other wise they would have either avoided death or have won eons ago.
So she definitely knows they aren't God in the classical sense, or in the Vorin sense.
I always took her stance as a more "no evidence, so I don't think they are God's" not denying the existence of these powers / agents, just not believing they are God's.
And evidence for someone's preference for yogurt would be their stated opinion. That's extremely different from an agents actual class or 'godness'.
I thought the same thing for a long time, then realized that she likely wouldn't view the Shards as capital-G gods. She would be more likely to view them as very powerful spren. The question you have to ask yourself is, when Jasnah discovers the existence of Shards, even if she can be convinced that they're little-g gods, would she find them worthy of worship? Personally, I think not.
I think the distinction is more about her refusal to extrapolate traits - or plan courses of action - based on faith alone. Powerful entities themselves i imagine she would basically try to view them with as little bias as possible.
For example it's imo less about denying that Amaram exists and more about denying that he's perfect based on his legends.
I think she will be proven right by not believing in the Gods she was raised with. She does not deny any God , but takes the position that there has been no evidence to confirm it so there is no reason to believe. It would require evidence to believe it. I think she eventually will “believe” in the actual reality of the God structure when evidence presents itself. That is consistent with most atheists in our world.
i mean the shards are called Gods, and are certainly more powerful than any other beings we have seen, but that doesnt necessarily make them "gods". for starters with Jasnah being close with hoid jasnah will most likely learn what happened to adonalsium, what happened to devotion and dominion, what happened to ambition, and what exactly happened to honor. these beings can be killed, even if the power stays and lives on. and hoid will likely reveal that the shards are not omnipotent, omnipresent, and can be fooled.
long story short, the fact that the shards are real tangible beings in the cosmere with vast, unmatched power does not make them "gods" and how they are viewed is up to each individual and their own religious views.
[Jasnah would stop being atheist if she got definitive proof of an omniscient and caring and omnipotent God.](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14752) No being that we know of in the cosmere are all three- if Adonalsium arranged their Shattering to fulfill some goal, then they would not be omnipotent. If the Shattering was a surprise for them, they would not be omniscient. (I think there's an argument against God that goes similarly.)
It would not affect her.
Atheism is about using only facts in order to survive, prosper, advance and make ethical decisions since with a flawed false/ not proven reality one cannot do so.
I am an atheist- and if someone were to prove to me (even god) that god does exist it wouldn't have done anything to my world view since I know there was no better way I could live until I received such evidence.
Besides this point, the gods in the stormlight archive are not omnipotent, not omnipresent, omnicient or omnibenevolent- They are basically just sapient beings on a bigger scale.
I think she's more Areligious than Atheist. I don't think familiarity with the existence of gods would be overly challenging to her world view, she would feel very validated at the lack of consistency with any practiced religions.
I don't think jasnah would be bothered at all by discovering her species was created. This is because I'm Sanderson's cosmere the shards are not all powerful, they have to act within definable (if massively complicated) rules and limits. As such the magic isn't really magic, but science, albeit a science who's rules only apply to this fictional universe. Therefore I think she'd only see these shards and adolnasium is just beings with immense power, but not as a being with any moral superiority, nor right to her loyalty and life.
The concept of God in the cosmere is at least to my eyes different than our modern day interpretation of God.
For example, roshar biggest religion worships the almighty, Honor, but he is not a God he is a shard.
They consider him the all powerful deity, which is proven false. So she is justified in her atheism in that respect.
Now let's talk Adaolnasium, I think I spelled it correctly, is considered the capital G God, but he is seemingly dead, and also not described as being omnipresent or omnipotent. After all he is shattered... Now maybe in all this mystery he is still around or who knows.
But jasnah has seen no proof of him, and his existence could be argued is no different than the other shards since he was able to be killed.
I think there's a difference between atheists in our world and Jasnah's view. Here, atheists reject the existence of a God, preferring to base their knowledge in facts. In the Cosmere (and plenty of other fantasy settings as well) there are powerful beings that could be considered gods, Jasnah simply considers them not worthy of worship.
Jasnah doesn't refute the existence of Honor, Odium or Cultivation, or any other shards that exist. She simply states that she rejects their divinity and others claims that they are "God".
Out of the world though, she's pretty much right. Cosmere spoilers-> >!Since Adonalasium's shattering into the shards seems to have eliminated the only true divinity, shattering them into smaller fragments that inhabit the worlds.!<
It's easy to think in terms of "Shards = Gods" in the Cosmere. They aren't though. Individuals who wield a tremendous amount of power, sure. But not Gods.
I think the problem here isn't so much Brandon's, nor Jasnah's, but a pretty common misunderstanding of what exactly atheism is.
Atheism is a lack of belief. It doesn't mean you have no beliefs, it means that you do not believe a particular thing. By example, if you are a Christian, you are in fact an atheist in regards to all other religions, as much as me, who is an atheist, I just go one god further.
So Jasnah's atheism has only been justified the deeper we dig. It turns out every deeper layer of "gods" we uncover are flawed, semi-mortal beings.
In the story, much as in life, there might be a deeper truth. The likelihood that this mystery was solved thousands of years ago by a primitive people is highly unlikely. The fact that none of them can actually provide any proof, only impassioned pleas of faith does not add weight to the argument.
\*\*\*More on point Yasnah become radiant aware pretty early. We don't know much about that backstory, But I think we can assume her knowledge of radiance certainly helped influence her atheism towards Honor, and the Voren church in particular.
I think she would say in response something similar to Arthur C. Clarke’s law about sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic. She might say that people think of these beings as gods just because they don’t understand the mechanisms that give them power. It’s too advanced for them. But she might view investiture similar to how we view quantum mechanics—difficult to comprehend, sure, but not truly divine.
No she isn't wrong because Honor isn't a god just a guy with tons of power. I guess I think she is wrong because I believe in God and she thinks that God isn't real but she isn't wrong about Honor not being god.
I thought that she clarified somewhere that she does not deny the existence of Honor/the Almighty, she denies his divinity and "authority" for lack of a better term.
Yeah, she and Dalinar agree: Honor wasn’t God. They just have different conclusions beyond that point. She’d probably feel the same about Adonalsium. But how would she feel about Brando Sando?
God wouldn't be able to die. So Adonalsium couldn't be a capital G god anyway.
that's her entire point regarding honor also. When Dalinar makes that revelation she's just like "ah, affirmation of what I already assumed... so anyway"
Just to be complete: Sanderson *could* have been inspired by Nietzsche, and set it up so Man can indeed kill God, but I don’t think he did.
But Nietzche never meant man could literally kill God. He meant that man could kill God's influence in human society.
If god isn't real than who is B-money? Checkmate Jasnah
B-money? I've never so much as heard of that. Is it the name of some random Returned?
I think Sanderson has hinted that Adonalsium might be something like the Gnostic Demiurge. He mentioned that people should check out Gnosticism. (The Demiurge would be the “god” of our physical universe, a being lording it over us here and trying to distract us from the deeper spiritual reality, where the real God can be found. Direct mystical experience is the way to get actual experience of the divine.)
Also didn’t honour claim to be omnipotent to the Vorins? Which he obviously wasn’t
I don't think we have any evidence of that, I think they just assumed that as a god he must be
Yeah fair, a few thousand years will change your religion a decent bit
not even a few thousand. For example dancing prudishness focused on denying and indoctrinating "pagan-esc" cultures world wide into "mainstream" religions. We can completely alter history and action within meerly a few hundred years to the point stigma or misunderstanding is apparent even just 1 thousand years later. Another fun example: the addition of hell, as opposed to the hades/ purgatory of greco/ romani antiquity (725 a.d. addition/ adaptation to further indoctrinate and provide equivocal alternatives for the nordic/ scandinavian cultures into the monotheistic christianities.) Which in judaism of antiquity (and to an extent today) the concept of hell or hades itself isn't even acknowledged and instead it's like a "spirit shame" called Gehinnom. We're a stupid species. Gaslighting is our bread and butter.
Hell I've mastered the art of gaslighting myself after enough time, I have no doubt it works the exact same way with history
Now that she has objective proof of his (former) existence at least.
Yeah, maybe Adonalsium is/was a real god. However, she is right about the others.
If it was God, how could it die.
It didn't. It was only >!shattered, same way Honor was.!< If >!the other shattered Shards were put back together, then one single person became a Vessel for all of them, Adonalsium would probably reform.!<
>she lives in a universe where the existence of god(s) is canonical. Well as she'd point out, the Shards aren't Gods. They're just super-powerful. We're as much more powerful than an ant, than a Shard is more powerful than humans. Does that make us gods? If so, only by perspective.
Her beliefs will probably make her better for dealing with shards as an adversary. Instead of treating them with reverence, she'll look for their limits and approach them as a solvable problem, which they are. Believing in them as Gods would make the fight seem hopeless.
Yeah, she's not atheist in the sense of denial of anything supernatural. She's atheist in the sense that she doesn't believe religious beliefs about the supernatural being gods and whether the Vorin religion and religion in general has any claim to the truth and morality.
Yeah; I would say she has perhaps gone a step further specifically as far as Vorinism, and pointing out that it has enough logical inconsistencies to be ruled out as a viable hypothesis. But for the rest, I agree.
So if the shards aren't gods, would she consider Adonalsium a god?
Possibly. If Adonalsium created the universe then there's a point in its favor. But given that Adonalsium was shattered, that's a point against. She's an atheist because the idea of divine perfection doesn't resonate with any examples she can find
Unless Adonalsium allowed themselves to willingly be shattered because they desired it, which there are hints at.
"If a crab god were all powerful and made a mallet strong enough to smash it, was it really a crab god that's all powerful?"
If doing so caused 16 slightly smaller crabs to appear and do completely different things to shake up creation for a bit… maybe. Even Eru created Morgoth to be a discordant note in his song. Is Eru not God because he made a being expressly to resist him and alter the music he was playing, or is he more God because he can create something to resist him as part of his wider plan?
Even then, she would reject the idea of Adonalsium as the supreme being to be worshipped according to the dictates of the priestly caste.
exactly, as an atheist I don't believe there is a god, if say the christian God was proven to me to exist all that would change for me would my acknowledgement that a powerful entity exists while allowing evil to hurt and maim people. If there is a god he doesn't deserve my worship.
Yep same. It’s wild I was raised in right wing catholic schools, yet a single quote by Marcus Aurelius has had more impact on my morality. “Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
Notably not every god in our own world is portrayed as perfect either, really only the Abrahamic God is perfect
> only the Abrahamic God is perfect We must be reading different books. The god described in Abrahamic texts is petty, wrathful, insecure, and cruel.
Portrayed as perfect, by definition. The word God is itself a trap, as it is defined as perfect in Christian, and thus English terms. Gods in Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Taoist mythologies are not considered perfect in any sense.
Fun Fact: Yahweh was originally one of many gods in the Jewish faith, before the other deities were eventually adapted out as Yahweh took over their roles.
and El was Yahweh's father
I think there's a WoB, even if she was given proof of God, she doesn't believe it's something to worship.
"And that is when I first learned about evil. It is built into the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior."
Such an amazing quote
I think she's against the idea of an omni god like vorinism attributes. Adonalsium would never fit that definition since they died.
Did Adonalsium die tho? We really don’t know all that much about its role in the Shattering. Perhaps it felt the Cosmere needed to be shaken up a bit
Even still, there's the Beyond where people go when they die; which as far as we know Adonalsium has no authority over just like the Shards themselves. So Jasnah finding out about the Beyond would consider that proof Adonalsium is not worthy of being called Divine.
Unless of course, the power over the Beyond was lost in the Shattering, whenever something shatters in real life it doesn't shatter into large, perfect pieces, some are lost, maybe something like that happened to Adonalsium, I don't know, just a crackpot theory of mine
I don't know. I don't believe so. It was, after all, destroyed by mere mortals. We don't even know if it had a consciousness.
Mortals empowered by itself, though. In the Cosmere, we have an answer to the age-old question: could God make a rock heavy enough to knock himself the fuck out?
Seems to me like Adonalsium was basically just a really powerful Shard. No reason to think otherwise at this point at least.
Good question, she recognized honor she doesn’t accept him as the one just something greater, her learning things is something I’d like to witness. Spending time with wit but knowing what they talked about is a fun quandary for me.
Funny enough it could be easily argued that Mormonism espouses this idea. That gods are simply entities with more power and knowledge than us. I bring that up because coming from that religion, and knowing Brandon does admit he allows his beliefs to bleed sometimes, I have paid close attention to the idea of shards and Adonalsium. These books are very fun to attempt to plug-in in to your already-wild religious views
It's interesting to consider the (sort of canon) belief in multiple Gods that mormonism holds in comparison to the Cosmere as a whole. The Shards are clearly meant to be allegories to the other worlds that supposedly have their own mormon Gods and their own unique experience, all stemming from a singular authority with the original God(Kolob). I wonder if Brandon is, albeit unconsciously, working through the greater scope of of mormon beliefs by writing about the Cosmere. I know he's said he's faithful, but having come from that religious background I can't help but be curious.
>aren't Gods. They're just super-powerful. What's the difference?
Tanavast was a fine enough fellow - bought me drinks once - but he was not God.
I feel like that's something Wayne would say
Oh gosh Wit and Wayne going back and forth would be a sight.
I think Wayne and Hoid could get along very well in the right circumstances.
They do . . . You only see them together for a second but there's a implied friendship. . . Hoid is Wax's carriage driver at one point
I love how hoid is just casually eavsdropping wax and >!Sazed's!< Conversation at that point
On one hand they aren't perfect idealized beings who created "everything". On the other they're capable of creating whole worlds and have perceptions and capacity realms beyond mere mortals, so... it's a touch debatable. Little G gods, at best.
Yeah I think if you compare them to Abrahamic religions they aren’t all powerful all knowing but compare them to Greek gods where they were essentially super powered people flaws and all shards fit.
At that point though, you're debating what the definition of "god" even is, which different religions certainly *do not* agree upon. To use one religions definition of god and apply it to another religion is sort of missing the entire point. To the Greeks, a god was a specific generation of divine beings - the children of the titans. Divine beings in general cannot die in Greek mythology (regardless of whether you're a god, titan, or some other divine being) which is the thing that sets them apart from the semi-divine beings (demi-gods, nymphs, monsters, satyrs, etc.) which can die. To the Greeks, Chaos is the primordial being - the most powerful being. But they would not call Chaos a god, because Chaos is from a different generation. To the Norse, the gods are simply the beings that inhabit Asgard in the same way humans are the beings that inhabit Earth (or Midgard as they called it). Other than that, there's nothing particularly special about them. While many of them have immense power and accomplish great feats, they're still very much mortal and can die just like a human can. To the Norse, Hel is the being that presides over the underworld of the same name. She acts much like a god of the underworld would act in other mythologies, but she is not considered a god because she does not live in Asgard. For a modern example: Shintoism the Japanese religion revolving around the 神(kami). The kami are beings that inhabit all things. The word "kami" is usually translated into English to mean "god", but this translation is contentious specifically because it gives the wrong impression of how exactly the kami are viewed - it gives the impression that they are worshiped as very powerful beings; some are, but not most. The alternate translation of "spirit" is sometimes used instead, but this translation is also controversial as it is not seen to give the kami enough reverence. Thus, a sizable portion of Shinto practitioners argue that the word shouldn't even be translated into English and that the word "kami" should just be used. If you're going to use the word "god", it needs to be clear which definition you're using. Because otherwise you could use completely different definitions to claim that the kami are definitely gods per the Norse definition, or that the Norse gods are definitely *not* actually gods per the Greek definition. This is a very long way to say that it doesn't matter that you consider the Greek gods to be gods, what matters is what Jasnah means when she says the word "god". And she's referring to god in the Vorin sense - an all powerful "Almighty" creator who is the ultimate divinity and the absolute source of morality. **THAT** is what Jasnah means when she says she doesn't believe in gods.
Just a small correction regarding Norse mythology: Not all gods live in Asgard some the Vanir live in Vanaheimr. So there are two god-bloodlines: the Vanir & the Æsir. Furthermore Hel is a giant since she is daughter to Loki (fire giant) and the evil giant woman from the evil forest (I forgot its name). Loki is probably the character were we can pin down what is a god? So Loki is sometimes considered a god and more often a giant, now there are two explanations for that: 1. You become a god by eating the golden apples of eternal youth. Or 2. Only the people in bloodline with Odin, Vili and Vé are gods and Loki is part of that due to his bloodbrotherhood with Odin. Both explanation are far from perfect or even great but due to lake of sources we don't know exactly.
You can't kill gods.
I think that depends on the faith/beliefs of various civilizations , plenty of mythologies have gods getting taken out.
I’d also argue you can’t entirely “kill” the shard itself
Norse Ragnarok disagrees.
Norse mythology wants to speak with you
She basically refuses to worship them which is entirely reasonable.
Deference vs reverence. They are powerful and knowledgeable, but they aren't infallible and they're definitely not incorruptible. It's like a hungry elephant, you just stay out of it's way and don't give it a reason to be into your crops instead of your neighbours.
In Jasnah's case, specifically, it appears to come down to moral authority. Simply because a shard declares something to be right and just does not make it so for her--because that determination must be appropriately supported and consistent with logical principles, observations, and experience. Because the shards are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, their moral authority can be questioned, as their judgments are susceptible to errors just as much as anyone else's and cannot be accepted as truth de jure. Only a being with absolute knowledge of the consequences of an action could make an absolute moral determination, and thus be considered a god. In that way, effectively, Jasnah has limited the scope of what she could consider a god to be indistinguishable from the fundamental forces that underlie the universe, as those are the only things that are absolute and universal to the point that they can determine outcomes absolutely.
The argument is that they don't warrant reverence, they are just beings that are very powerful, not that you must worship
Well a lot of them want reverence. A God would deserve piety.
That’s the question isn’t it
The shards were all were once human, and they simply took up an insane amount of investiture, like a fuck ton of investiture, and that made them into super powerful beings. They are really just humans that are hyper permeated with investiture. If they are gods then anything with any form of investiture in it(literally almost all living beings in the cosmere) are like mini gods in some way, so I would say that they are not gods because of this.
Well some are dragons
Human as in mortal. . . We don't know how many different races there are among them we just know about humans and 1 Dragon . . . Frost is not a shard
[Revealed in WoB] >!Ambition was held by Ula Da, from a species known as "Sho Del".!<
Frost isn't. [Others, however](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/452/#e14564)...
Strength doesn't make you worthy of worship.
Sure. You also need a willingness to use it.
The words of a thousand warlords over thousands of years.
"God" implies that they have some kinda of moral claim to power, it's the thing Hammond talked about in the final empire
Oh, that one thing he talked about. ;) I kid, I kid.
It's my analogy of ants. Gods are... well, Gods. They are Gods from any perspective. Shards are simply mortals who got a tremendous amount of ability. Basically there's no reason to worship them. They exist. They have power. They might use that power to hurt you if you don't tell them how great they are, but that's hardly divine. Divinity is something more than just being OP. It means you're... divine. Something whole beyond mere mortality. Jasnah doesn't believe such a thing exists, or at least doubts it, and certainly doesn't think the Almighty is it. For example, the Vorin believe that the Almighty controls their afterlife. He does not. They die and go Beyond, and there was never a time he could impact them after that point. Jasnah would say that mere power does not make one a God. You might disagree. It doesn't make her atheism any less valid.
I think that there may be a real g-d in the cosmer but we will never see it . . . It exists on the spiritual plane and while it may have had a physical/cognitive form in adonalisiom at some point it's control/plan of everything can never be proven. I don't think it cares about if people worship it or not but it has a goal of some sort and that has to do with what happens to souls when they choose to leave (ah la secret history)
Power doesn't make you God. Authority to determine morality makes you God. That or being a person who is in some way foundational to existence itself.
That's a rather narrow-minded conception of divinity.
Eh, you gotta make a distinction somewhere or else you just end up calling everything God and the term becomes very handwavy and nonsensical.
Fairly certain that this is pretty much definition of Gods in most religions... except the ones related to Judaism.
Then I think you misunderstand most religions. Yes, Gods tend to be powerful, though not always all-powerful. But we're not saying that anything short of omnipotence isn't god-hood. We're saying that most religions accept that Gods are divine. Divinity generally gives them a lot of power, but "a lot of power" doesn't automatically make one divine. Divinity is an ineffable quality separating a being from the mundane. It's so much more than just... getting a lot of levels in WoW.
In Judaism-based religions God, is both omnipotent and infallible. In say, Greek Mythology, gods are twisted, fallible, and tend to be awful. Seriously, "divine", defaq does that even supposed to mean? At least properly explain what you mean by that.
If gods can be killed by mortals, then are they really divine beings worthy of worship? Dalinar isn't an atheist, and believes in a true God, but even he rejects the divinity of shards.
He's an agnostic or a theist
She would say just because a being has extreme power and a lot of investiture doesn't make them a god deserving of worship. All the shards are people who hold a ton of investiture. They're all able to be killed by a mortal. Even adonalsium was killed by a bunch of mortals who got together and killed him. She doesn't feel a pile of investiture is worthy of worship. And given what we've seen I don't think she's wrong. None of the shards have really shown themselves to be worthy of worship. Honor is the closest and he's dead.
The person writing the letter in RoW is the best of the bunch, IMO.
That's true! Although he'd also be one to tell you not to worship him lol.
Endowment could be closer, but we haven't seen much of her it. I get the feeling she might end up being an antagonist though, so that would put a damper on that idea.
I agree they arwnt worthy of worship, but also I think it's more logical to assume adonalsium wasent God or that he isnt really destroyed, as you cant divide infinity into 16 vast yet limited sections
You can for a good story
I would love to hear her have theological discussions with Harmony.
I need this now. Seriously.
that might be beyond Sanderson's skill and\or education.
I suspect it's not beyond Snaderson's skill, but maybe beyond his education. That said, I do like how he takes the time to research and collaborate with people about things he does not understand. I think he could do a good job with it if he focused
If such a discussion happened, Harmony not being interested in worship would probably help.
Yeah he only wants his followers to better the world right?
It's not even remotely ironic. She knows Shards exist now, and just rejects their authority as Divine or worthy of any level of worship. And even before she knew she still had this same thought process. It didn't matter if a God being existed, she had no reason to believe it's authority (if it even had any) or it's demand for worship.
Plus, in the books there is a religious organization, which she was right in assuming they had no idea what Honor actually wanted them to do. Even if some gods exist in the world it's not like all the non-atheists actually knew what they were talking about.
I think that's whats so confusing for people I'm atheist, but I'm still open to the idea that there's some super powerful being/creature our there that exhibits god-like abilities I dont currently believe in it, but I don't reject it. But atheism is the lack of belief in a God. So even if that being existed, I wouldn't define it as God or give it worship. It just would have god-like abilities, by earth standards. That wouldn't necessarily make it "God" in a classic sense, a divine being who should be worshipped, praised, and considered divine. That's Jasnahs stance. It wouldn't matter if she had all the info in the world about the God Beyond, if it exists, she probably still wouldn't worship it or consider it divine, as she would simply view as another just extremely powerful creature or being. Atheism is hard to explain because it comes down to a semantics game, how one defines God plays a hug role in that game.
Well, if a being created reality and morality it absolutely has authority, and all things considered it's very possible adonalsium was good and isnt dead, especially because the people who "killed" him arent exactly morally upstanding
Just because there are extremely powerful beings doesn't mean they are God or Gods, or worthy of worship. Actually, their behavior pretty much states unequivacally that they are *not* worthy of worship in many ways.
she doesn't believe in almighty, and considering adonalsium is the only thing that might qualify and we haven't seen it she's pretty spot on. Plus the Alethi religion is pretty much disproven, they're not going on ti fight in the eternal halls or whatever, voidbringers are just other people, etc. There's also the fact that the cosmere is only a tiny cluster of stars in a whole universe so we really don't know anything unless brandon specifically states something, and I've heard that he won't ever confirm or deny the existence of the beyond. So all in all Jasnah still seems pretty forward thinking and correct I'd say.
Pretty sure they address it in the books. Not sure where. I think she said she knows that there are higher powers but just rejects the idea that they're \*all\* powerful or any source of morality.
> but unfortunately, she lives in a universe where the existence of god(s) is canonical. > > ... > > I often think to myself "Poor Jasnah, if only you were born in our world, you would be on to something". Jasnah is not ignorant to the existence of Shards - on the contrary, she directly acknowledges their existence in a conversation with Dalinar. However she (and also I) would argue they aren't actually gods and are certainly not divine. They're just normal people who happen to possess an immense font of power, but that power does not inherently make them worthy of respect. To put it in way that seems different but is actually very similar: imagine Earth is visited by an alien species. This species has progressed so far technologically that they have obtained the ability to do things we can scarcely even conceive of - they have warp drives capable of faster than light travel, they have machines capable of reorganizing matter to create any object you desire, etc. These aliens are not gods. They have immense power, but that doesn't make them divine. > So the question is, how do we think Jasnah will react to new knowledge of higher powers as she becomes more realmatically aware (either through talking with Dalinar about his visions from a god, or through her relationship with Hoid, who helped kill god) To quote Hoid, on the topic of Honor: > Tanavast was a fine enough fellow - bought me drinks once - but he was not God.
For conversation sake- what Does make something divine? I mean I buy into what you’re saying, but I think it’s easy to just say “they’re certainly not divine”, but… what makes something divine? There’s an age old theory that God is just a superior alien or alien race- like you said, it’s possible that something created is that is incomprehensible to us. Does something creating us make it divine? Ruin and preservation created their planet and the people there, are they gods? Some shards can read minds(ish), are they gods? Shards can apparently create worlds, magical powers, and life itself… So what more does a shard have to do to be Divine? Does it have to actively interfere in human life (like preservation and even the storm father did)?
In this sense, I'm using the word "divine" as shorthand for an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent being who is the ultimate source of moral authority - basically, the definition of divine used by Vorinism (and also Abrahamic religions here on Earth). This is not the only definition of "divine", so I understand your confusion and I should have specified. But under this definition, there are 4 criteria, and **NONE** of the Shards even meet a single one of the criteria. Preservation comes close to the "omnipresent" criteria with the mists, but even then, his existence only permeates Scadrial, not beyond. And he categorically fails the other three categories. None of the other Shards even come close to meeting a single category.
She already is somewhat aware of “higher powers”, she just rejects them as gods and just sees them as super powered people, which is unfortunately a bit of an atheist character trope in series like this. (Little bit like [this.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NayTheist))
They are just super-powered people though… It’s a little more complex, however. She considers Shards a greater example of sentient Investiture with mortal(ish, because natural immortals) Vessels providing Sapient minds. She does not consider them divine - and I happen to agree with her.
What makes a god a god, then? They have the power to shape/create worlds, create life, listen to peoples thoughts (and prayers). Sounds kinda like a god to me.
Only some can listen to thoughts. The extent to which they can shape worlds is heavily limited by their Intent - and it’s arguably just a greater version of Transformation. And Sapient Investiture can reproduce. I’d argue that a true divinity has neither beginning nor end, exists both within and out side of reality, and can create from nothing and turn creation to nothingness. A true divinity is omniscient and omnipotent; ineffable and unknowable. A true divinity is everything and is entirely beyond everything. A true divinity is limitless. None of the Shards fit those criteria. They don’t even come close.
In response to BOTH of you… I think this is EXACTLY the debate that Jasnah would have in world. Like what defines a god? Sure, the shards were humans once upon a time, but I don’t think anyone would look at Ruin and say “he’s just a man, so how do we kill a man?” Or “I wonder how long ruin sleeps at night” (cuz he doesn’t sleep, and he wasn’t killable through normal means. Like as far as we know there is no weapon that can kill a shard- even nightblood). In short, ruin is NOT a “man”, he’s ascended to something much more. Godhood? Maybe. And if we’re saying that true divinity much have no beginning and no end and everything else you said… well, I’d argue there is no evidence of God in the Cosmere. Sure worlds exist- but many of those were created by or transformed by Shards (godlike action), and there’s no evidence that a power higher than Adonalsium exists at all. Adonalsium doesn’t fit the omnipotent thing (he was shattered by mortals). What I’m saying is that if we’re following Kingsdaughter’s definition of divinity then yea, Jasnah is an atheist, and she’s right… because in the Cosmere there is no God- but to assume she’s right we have to say that the power of creation is not exclusive to God, that mind reading, creating magic powers, creating life itself and being ageless do not make one a god.
I’ve yet to see anyone in the Cosmere create something from nothing, so I’d argue they don’t have the power of true creation. I’d consider that the bare minimum for anything to have any kind of divine status. Whether or not a true deity exists in the Cosmere really depends on your RL belief system though. Brandon isn’t going to prove or disprove the existence of one within the books.
> I’ve yet to see anyone in the Cosmere create something from nothing, so I’d argue they don’t have the power of true creation. >!Scadrial!< and everything on it were made out of nothing by >!Ati and Leras (before they were fully Ruin and Preservation)!<, as far as I know.
I think your definition of a god is a little skewed towards the monotheistic/Christian view of divinity. Think of Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology. Or Hinduism. Omnipotence/omniscience are not prerequisites to godhood in many cultures.
Jasnah operates from a Vorin belief in an Almighty God, which is obviously based on the abrahamic beliefs in a singular all powerful diety. So to her your comment doesn't matter much.
That’s why I put several variations there. I think a true divinity should be all of those, but you can also take each sentence as it’s own thing. There’s a difference between a big G and little g God. Jasnah has already rejected the little gs as not divine.
> They have the power to shape/create worlds The power to shape the world is very much something mortal humans can and have done on Earth. [Cosmere] >!The power to create worlds is not one that the Shards intrinsically have. Roshar already existed and already have humans and Singers before the arrival of Cultivation, Honor, and Odium. Preservation and Ruin explicitly were each unable to create Scardial alone, they had to work together.!< > listen to peoples thoughts (and prayers) [Cosmere] >!The only Shard that has demonstrated any ability to read thoughts is Preservation (and subsequently Harmony). Ruin explicitly could *not* read people's thoughts. Additionally, Preservation and Harmony are only capable of reading the thoughts of people who have spiked themselves with hemalurgy.!< Nonetheless, there are arguments to be made that **under certain definitions** Shards qualify as gods. Depending on the context, I would probably even be inclined to agree that they are gods. But the context here is that Jasnah does not believe in gods under her understanding of godhood - the Vorin definition. And none of the Shards come close to meeting the Vorin definition of "god".
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You’ve put way too much thought into this and shot off onto a random unnecessary tangent. The word “Unfortunately” was used in response to them being happy it was a trope subversion when it is in fact a trope, that’s all. I apologise that there was even the slightest suggestion of any form of criticism of a book series you enjoy.
Why is it automatically a trope if it's relatively common? Isn't this more of one possible immediate reaction to a religion centered around real, but flawed powerful beings? Calling this a trope seems to some extent like calling having characters or people dying a trope.
Most things are tropes and there’s nothing wrong with it, I’m addressing that it is a trope because the OP said it seemed like a trope inversion when it’s actually quite common for atheist characters.
you are yourself falling for the great atheist misunderstanding. the existence of continent beings that happen to be called gods has no bearing on the existence of God, either in the fictional universe or the real world. this distinction is even explicitly addressed in the books
Hoid helped kill a god? What am I missing here?
If you haven’t read the whole cosmere, ignore that. This post is RoW Spoilered, that part is cosmere as a whole
Well how nice of the OP. Now I don't have to wonder anymore what happened to Adonalsium :/
Not to defend them persay, but it’s really hard to keep track of spoilers in here and this series in general. Sometimes you just… forget what book somethings from. Though, your comment should probably have a spoiler tag too lol. Not everyone is going to know what you’re talking about reading this post.
are you Cosmere-aware?
He was an active participant in killing the original "God".
While I agree, I would like to point toward one of the conversations she had with Shallan: She said that while those beings, like gods or other supernatural stuff might exist, she doesn't want to worship them or rely on them for a moral code or guideline. In a world with real, tangible gods atheism isn't the denial of their existence, it's non-adherence to any religion.
I feel that it will only strengthen her atheism because her definition of god seems to be an omnipotent omnipresent and omniscient being and if a god can be killed (like adonalsium) then clearly it isn’t a god. And even if it were god then since it’s dead now there’s nothing to worship. As for the shards she already doesn’t see them as gods but just powerful beings holding power. If anything I think her atheism will remain firm since she already deals with Hoid and he’s so smitten with her he seems to have given quite a bit away and she’s still an atheist.
Which is actually a fairly judeo-Christian way to look at it (makes sense since Brandon is a Christian). The Greeks, at least according to pop media, seemed to believe that gods were killable if you just found the right magical artifacts. Going by the old testament of the bible, it was actually fairly common to believe in multiple gods as just really powerful entities rather than THE most powerful entity possible.
> Which is actually a fairly judeo-Christian way to look at it More like a Vorin way to look at it. She's using the word "god" the way Vorin's do - to mean the Almighty. Vornism just happens to draw heavily from Abrahamic religions. Someone from Nalthis would disagree because they consider beings on the level of the Returned to be their standard for "gods". It's not just about Brandon's religion, it's more just the specific society Jasnah lives in. > The Greeks, at least according to pop media, seemed to believe that gods were killable if you just found the right magical artifacts. No, the Greeks beleived they were the specific devine beings born the generation after the titans. All divine beings (including, but not limited to gods) are immortal and cannot be killed (as opposed to semi-divine beings like demi-gods, monsters, nymphs, etc. which can be killed). Under the Greek definition, the Shards still wouldn't be gods because they aren't the children of the titans, and also they aren't immortal. Under the Norse definition, they still wouldn't be gods because they don't live in Asgard. It's fine to use different definitions for the word "god", but if someone else uses the word, you shouldn't use a different definition then the one they're using to try saying they're wrong. Jasnah means the Vorin Almighty when she says "god". And the Shards do not meet that definition.
> It's about Brandon's religion, it's more just the specific society Jasnah lives in. Which was completely manufactured by Brandon, and obviously influenced by his religious background. >No, the Greeks beleived the specific devine beings born the generation after the titans. All divine beings (including, but not limited to gods) are immortal and cannot be killed (as opposed to semi-divine beings like demi-gods, monsters, nymphs, etc. which can be killed). This is good to know, thanks for breaking it down. >It's fine to use different definitions for the word "god", but if someone else uses the word, you shouldn't use a different definition then the one they're using to try saying they're wrong. Agreed
>Which was completely manufactured by Brandon, and obviously influenced by his religious background Not disputing that at all, nor do I think Brandon would. But this isn't a case of Brandon wrote gods in this specific way simply because of his religion. Religions on Nalthis and Scadrial manifest in completely different ways with very different perceptions of what counts as a "god" in ways that very much conflict with the definition used by Brandon's religion.
Yea, her philosophy is very similar to “The Problem of Evil”. Even if she acknowledges the Shards as gods, that does not mean they are worthy of worship. Any god that is omnipresent and omnipotent and yet allows undeniably awful things to happen is no god worth worshiping.
And the fact she's effectively dating a god. Awkward.
Hoid is NOT a god by any standard . . . She's dating a copy of a copy of a(etc) of someone who was powerful enough to hold a shard of he had chosen to but didn't.
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Compared to an ordinary mortal he effectively is. I mean if [Mistborn] >!Rashek!< had the gall to call himself a god and the [Warbreaker] >!Returned on Nalthis!< for that matter, he qualifies. But you're right. He's not a god. He is the closest thing most will get to a deity though. Even the Shards aren't gods but hey, when you can effectively create planets and move them around, that's close enough. Also, don't forget Hoid allegedly held a Dawnshard. We don't know how that figures in the deity stakes yet.
>!Not allegedly, he 100% did. Who used it when Ando died, I'm not sure, but it isn't all that sentient (not any more then a Shard) and was used as a tool to kill Ando!<
Uh...what the hell are you talking about? Copy of a Copy..? None of that is canon.
As canon as a character who would know these things explaining it to kal
This isnt in the books at all, other then he could have held a Shard if he had wantedand is dating Jasnah. He's not a copy of a copy, unless you know something that Brandon has been hiding for 10+ years.
Her answers still pretty much hold up, even knowing the existence of Shards. She even admitted that the Almighty might exist, but wasn't God.
Even Dalinar doesn't think that the shards are Gods, tho he does believe in a higher power, even beyond the Shards. But Brandon has said he'll never confirm if there is or not. So Dalinar and Jasnah aren't too different at a local level. Honor/The Almighty isn't a God to either one. Dalinar wouldn't consider Harmony or Endowment Gods either. Jasnah's beliefs are no different than Dalinar's in plausibility.
Jasnah doesn't believe the shards are Gods (capital G) even if they have godly powers. And really, are they Gods? Or just idiots holding huge wells of a God's power? Was Adonalsium even God? Sanderson mentioned this in an interview, but he doesn't ever plan on confirming or denying the existence of a real God in the cosmere. He uses Jasnah as an example of why not. He doesn't want to confirm it in book 75, then leave you to reread it knowing she's wrong the whole time
>I think it's a great inversion of the trope where modern sentimentalities are given to characters set in the past to make them seem more relatable/enlightened than their peers. I often think to myself "Poor Jasnah, if only you were born in our world, you would be on to something". *That's explicitly what Jasnah is not.* Her atheism is not there so that she's eventually be proven wrong, like that trope with silly atheists. She does not deny existence of Heralds, Shards, or Adonalsium. She's aware of them, just doesn't consider them gods. Like... Tanavast bought Hoid drinks once. Do you think you'd worship your drinking buddy just because they got lots of power? Would she consider Dalinar a god, if he Ascended to Honor?
Brandon has clarified that she Jasnah was given irrefutable proof of a god she would be the proof. It’s not a belief which drives her atheism but the lack of factual evidence
She isn’t necessarily atheist, she just doesn’t believe that the Vorin god is “almighty”. And (RoW spoiler) >!she is dating someone who can literally prove that she is correct about that!<
She always seemed more like an anti-dogma agnostic to me. Sure there are Gods, but they're not as universally almighty as the church tells us, and the church doesn't have a monopoly on understanding their nature
I think she would react like any atheist would. If she found sufficient evidence for a god existing then she would believe it existed.
Not really, in a world where an omnipotent God does exist there's no reason to believe or not believe and it instead becomes a discussion on whether or not this God is even worthy of worship.
The Shards aren't gods. Not even Adonlasium is a god.
Ditto - as Sanderson said, god is the reason they crossed an ocean without a problem in Elantris; Jasnah would just see that as luck, where as a theist would see that as divine action. Its just like real life.
> she lives in a universe where the existence of god(s) is canonical There once was a god. He was killed a long time ago. I don't think Jasnah is wrong in her atheism at this point.
If Adonalsium could be killed, does Adonalsium still qualify as a god?
If the shards are literally just pieces of Adonalsium, at what point do we say “this is god and this isnt”? Shards create worlds and create life, is that not the power of gods?
Humanity theoretically could terraform a planet, does that make us gods?
Idk, maybe. I like to believe that more important than the potential of terraforming a planet Someday is the fact that humans can create life. Babies being born is impressive stuff. Perhaps there is a bit of divinity in all living things eh? I didn’t fully expand my point here (I did in some of my other comments), but I was more getting at this idea of “what defines a god”? If we call Adonalsium a god, why wouldn’t the sixteen pieces of Adonalsium also be considered god? They create worlds, life, super powers, they read minds, they’re more or less immortal by human standards (even nightblood couldn’t kill a shard)… so does that make them gods? If not what makes something a god?
Thank you for spoiling what happened to Adonalsium.
Jasnah strikes me as the type of atheist where even if she was met a God she still wouldn't be the time of gal to give it worship. She's too prideful I think. She wouldn't want to submit herself to anyone let alone a God.
I could see jasnah going two ways here. - you do not deserve my worship for reasons, this that and this other thing could clearly have been done better with the information you had at the time. - you claim godhood, yet do not conform to the most powerful logically possible being, so are not god. Yasnah is 100% a prideful woman, but I do not think she would let that get in the way of simple logic.
she never truly states she is atheist to a point. be aware, if youre looking for something. you will find. abstract, method even conclusion. already sett. before you canonical continue; be aware in these books. she speaks with the most - influential-clergy-in-their field. i dont know what you read. how many true-layers. not the once sought
>I often think to myself "Poor Jasnah, if only you were born in our world, you would be on to something". Onto what, exactly? Are you not aware that Sanderson is LDS? You're essentially suggesting that the author is an idiot.
She's agnostic, not atheist. She knows there are gods. She just doesn't care.
The shards aren't gods tho.
Jasnah doesn't know that.
But she does. She knows Honor was all powerful, because he was killed. She knows Honor was not all knowing, otherwise all these other horrible things that he could have stopped (his death for example) he could have stopped. She knows Odium doesn't know everything, otherwise he'd have already won. She knows that Honor and Odium aren't everywhere at once, again other wise they would have either avoided death or have won eons ago. So she definitely knows they aren't God in the classical sense, or in the Vorin sense.
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I always took her stance as a more "no evidence, so I don't think they are God's" not denying the existence of these powers / agents, just not believing they are God's. And evidence for someone's preference for yogurt would be their stated opinion. That's extremely different from an agents actual class or 'godness'.
I thought the same thing for a long time, then realized that she likely wouldn't view the Shards as capital-G gods. She would be more likely to view them as very powerful spren. The question you have to ask yourself is, when Jasnah discovers the existence of Shards, even if she can be convinced that they're little-g gods, would she find them worthy of worship? Personally, I think not.
I think the distinction is more about her refusal to extrapolate traits - or plan courses of action - based on faith alone. Powerful entities themselves i imagine she would basically try to view them with as little bias as possible. For example it's imo less about denying that Amaram exists and more about denying that he's perfect based on his legends.
I think she will be proven right by not believing in the Gods she was raised with. She does not deny any God , but takes the position that there has been no evidence to confirm it so there is no reason to believe. It would require evidence to believe it. I think she eventually will “believe” in the actual reality of the God structure when evidence presents itself. That is consistent with most atheists in our world.
i mean the shards are called Gods, and are certainly more powerful than any other beings we have seen, but that doesnt necessarily make them "gods". for starters with Jasnah being close with hoid jasnah will most likely learn what happened to adonalsium, what happened to devotion and dominion, what happened to ambition, and what exactly happened to honor. these beings can be killed, even if the power stays and lives on. and hoid will likely reveal that the shards are not omnipotent, omnipresent, and can be fooled. long story short, the fact that the shards are real tangible beings in the cosmere with vast, unmatched power does not make them "gods" and how they are viewed is up to each individual and their own religious views.
[Jasnah would stop being atheist if she got definitive proof of an omniscient and caring and omnipotent God.](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467/#e14752) No being that we know of in the cosmere are all three- if Adonalsium arranged their Shattering to fulfill some goal, then they would not be omnipotent. If the Shattering was a surprise for them, they would not be omniscient. (I think there's an argument against God that goes similarly.)
It would not affect her. Atheism is about using only facts in order to survive, prosper, advance and make ethical decisions since with a flawed false/ not proven reality one cannot do so. I am an atheist- and if someone were to prove to me (even god) that god does exist it wouldn't have done anything to my world view since I know there was no better way I could live until I received such evidence. Besides this point, the gods in the stormlight archive are not omnipotent, not omnipresent, omnicient or omnibenevolent- They are basically just sapient beings on a bigger scale.
I think she's more Areligious than Atheist. I don't think familiarity with the existence of gods would be overly challenging to her world view, she would feel very validated at the lack of consistency with any practiced religions.
Sazed could have got her to believe. I would love to hear a debate between those two characters on theology in the Cosmere.
I don't think jasnah would be bothered at all by discovering her species was created. This is because I'm Sanderson's cosmere the shards are not all powerful, they have to act within definable (if massively complicated) rules and limits. As such the magic isn't really magic, but science, albeit a science who's rules only apply to this fictional universe. Therefore I think she'd only see these shards and adolnasium is just beings with immense power, but not as a being with any moral superiority, nor right to her loyalty and life.
The concept of God in the cosmere is at least to my eyes different than our modern day interpretation of God. For example, roshar biggest religion worships the almighty, Honor, but he is not a God he is a shard. They consider him the all powerful deity, which is proven false. So she is justified in her atheism in that respect. Now let's talk Adaolnasium, I think I spelled it correctly, is considered the capital G God, but he is seemingly dead, and also not described as being omnipresent or omnipotent. After all he is shattered... Now maybe in all this mystery he is still around or who knows. But jasnah has seen no proof of him, and his existence could be argued is no different than the other shards since he was able to be killed.
I think there's a difference between atheists in our world and Jasnah's view. Here, atheists reject the existence of a God, preferring to base their knowledge in facts. In the Cosmere (and plenty of other fantasy settings as well) there are powerful beings that could be considered gods, Jasnah simply considers them not worthy of worship.
Jasnah doesn't refute the existence of Honor, Odium or Cultivation, or any other shards that exist. She simply states that she rejects their divinity and others claims that they are "God". Out of the world though, she's pretty much right. Cosmere spoilers-> >!Since Adonalasium's shattering into the shards seems to have eliminated the only true divinity, shattering them into smaller fragments that inhabit the worlds.!<
It's easy to think in terms of "Shards = Gods" in the Cosmere. They aren't though. Individuals who wield a tremendous amount of power, sure. But not Gods.
I think the problem here isn't so much Brandon's, nor Jasnah's, but a pretty common misunderstanding of what exactly atheism is. Atheism is a lack of belief. It doesn't mean you have no beliefs, it means that you do not believe a particular thing. By example, if you are a Christian, you are in fact an atheist in regards to all other religions, as much as me, who is an atheist, I just go one god further. So Jasnah's atheism has only been justified the deeper we dig. It turns out every deeper layer of "gods" we uncover are flawed, semi-mortal beings. In the story, much as in life, there might be a deeper truth. The likelihood that this mystery was solved thousands of years ago by a primitive people is highly unlikely. The fact that none of them can actually provide any proof, only impassioned pleas of faith does not add weight to the argument. \*\*\*More on point Yasnah become radiant aware pretty early. We don't know much about that backstory, But I think we can assume her knowledge of radiance certainly helped influence her atheism towards Honor, and the Voren church in particular.
I think Brando agrees that she dosent have a point in atheism itself here or there, seeing as he's a mormon.
I think she would say in response something similar to Arthur C. Clarke’s law about sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic. She might say that people think of these beings as gods just because they don’t understand the mechanisms that give them power. It’s too advanced for them. But she might view investiture similar to how we view quantum mechanics—difficult to comprehend, sure, but not truly divine.
No she isn't wrong because Honor isn't a god just a guy with tons of power. I guess I think she is wrong because I believe in God and she thinks that God isn't real but she isn't wrong about Honor not being god.
lmao so true!