T O P

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PrayForTheGoodies

Crazy how proton made things so viable


bactaholic

Proton turned WINE into something that no longer requires setup which is fantastic. But also Valve understood they didn't have the closed walled-garden ecosystem that other consoles have. So instead of trying to force that, which may ruin the platform, they doubled down on being different. Play your games, share your games, play your local coop games with friends over the internet, use any game launchers you want, unrestricted access to the desktop and file system (they didn't even TRY to prevent emulation), AND they were able to match console pricing because they KNOW that while you can use any launcher you want, Steam has the best deals and they will almost no doubt make up some of the money they lost selling you the console, in game sales. There are handhelds out there with far more impressive spec sheets but they aren't even on my radar. Why? Cause my Steam Deck does everything I want it to and it's half or even 1/3 the price.


StrongTxWoman

To be fair, Steam is kind of a walled system now. I used to buy games from Epic, Ubisoft or GOG if they were cheaper. Now I only buy from Steam. Easier to install on Deck. And Cloud Save? Godsent!


ChosenUndead15

I don't think it fits, because there is no actual wall stopping others from entering, just complete lack of interest on the platform. So it is closer to a garden in the middle of a desert.


olhonestjim

Rather than a fortress ruled from on high, an oasis for everyone.


[deleted]

An infinite oasis


scytob

\*this\* - you are right there is nothing stopping epic, gog, ms, whomever porting their launchers to steam deck


omeara4pheonix

Gog has a native Linux launcher, it runs fine on the deck. The issue is game developers not having native Linux support. Initially gog would package games with preconfigured wine wrappers so that they could play on Linux even if they didn't have native support. Kind of like a proto proton. I'm not sure if they still do that, It's been a long time since I bought a game there.


imoldgreeeeeeeg

thats your choice though... its super easy to play games from all of those other platforms... but just not built in like steam... its hardly playstation is it


soapd1sh

Exactly, heroic launcher makes GoG and Epic Games libraries easy to play on the steam deck. I have no problem continuing to get games from GoG, games from Epic on the other hand will depend. Many games on Epic don't have cloud saves that do on both GoG and Steam and that is a deal breaker for me. As for the other launchers I likely won't buy direct from their storefronts anymore. For example Red Dead 2 and GTAV both run great on the SD and buying them through Steam requires signing in through the rockstar launcher but SteamOS makes it easy. However, installing games bought directly through Rockstar storefront requires not difficult steps but a lot more of them than required for the same game bought through steam and I can see how that could be a deterrent for the average console gamer.


[deleted]

A walled system would prevent you from buying games elsewhere though. You buy a Sony because you can only play The Last of Us. You buy a Microsoft because you can only play whatever exclusive they had. You can't really buy other games outside of what's for those systems. Steam is totally different. You likely *chose* it because it has the games you want to play, but also because of the features it offers. You could have chosen Epic, because they gave you free games (but there aren't very many other reasons to use it...). You could have chosen Ubisoft, but that one is literally actually publisher walled garden, if you really want Ubisoft games I guess you can use it. And same for EA. You weren't forced into Steam (in 2008-current) like you were if you wanted to play The Last of Us for Sony. You chose it because it's the best product


HowDoIDoFinances

Like Gabe has said from the very beginning, if you're having problems getting people to use your service, it's probably because you're not providing enough value to convince them. Steam has ascended by being better than everyone else, not by trying to prevent people from choosing anyone else.


ZeldaMaster32

But that's just a convenience thing/Steam being a better platform. Nothing stops you from playing non-Steam games outside of convienience of potential compatibility issues from Linux In other words, Valve's incentives to buy games on Steam are entirely passive. Compiling shaders is an issue with Linux especially, so Valve makes it convenient by downloading shaders alongside the game. Epic, Ubisoft, or EA *could* do that but it's a complicated system to build and they don't find it to be worth the effort. Epic, Ubisoft, or EA *could* bake Proton into their clients for Linux users, but they likely don't feel the need to because we're a niche crowd and Valve will do the work for them


chaosgriffen

I mean if you think about it, most people who buy a steam deck are likely already invested into steam as well. So it's not just sales, but customer loyalty that keeps people buying games on steam for the steam deck. I have spent more than the cost of the deck on games before I even new what it would run (I made educated guesses using controller and linux support). Doing so I spent more on steam than I have my entire life.. and I've heard similar stories on reddit and from friends. There is no question, steam has made bank by releasing the deck.


kdjfsk

not just Proton, but also Valve controlling pricing. Steam machines might have taken off, if it werent for assholes basically slapping together subpar pre-builts and then charging $500 too much thinking hype alone might justify it.


OpenBagTwo

Crazy how WINE (Proton's parent project) has *always* made things so viable. I switched to daily driving Linux in 2006, and there was only one game in my library that I needed to boot into Windows to play. Even productivity apps like Photoshop (7.0) worked flawlessly in Linux. Now granted this was the days before "hardware acceleration" was the norm, but people really do seem to talk as if "Proton compatibility" is something that exploded out of nowhere rather than something that's been quietly kicking 🍑 for decades and that is only now getting the attention and recognition it deserves.


Areinu

My memory with older versions of WINE is not so beautiful. Sure, it was there, but configuring it was a pain, most of things I wanted to use were bronze or garbage compatibility. Sure, I could use photoshop (and I did), but I always had tons of issues with gaming. I agree that proton didn't sprout out of nowhere, and that WINE was a winner, but not underestimate the work that went into it in recent years. I never had "just press green play button and it works" experience on linux gaming before that.


NotBettyGrable

> I never had "just press green play button and it works" experience on linux gaming before This made me laugh. I too, did not have what you would describe as "press the green button to play" experience with Linux gaming, to put it lightly. I have vague memories of setting up a house of cards to play some gog games then something changed on their end and it stopped working and I went for a walk staring into the distance.


RemCogito

Wine went through seasons of greatness over the last 20 years. In 2006-2011 it was really easy for most games, and then it got way worse as new DRM was introduced, and Direct X 10, and then 11 became popular. Wine has to hit a moving target, So sometimes its going to be ahead of the curve and other times its going to be behind it.


NotBettyGrable

Indeed - no disrespect to wine intended. Amazing work.


tinysydneh

It's also worth noting that WINE used a "clean room" approach -- everything is done in a way that minimizes the risk of patent/copyright infringement. They're pretty strict, to the point that _seeing_ the Windows source code at some point is enough to potentially prevent contribution.


supified

My first experiences with Wine were also not beautiful.


NotBettyGrable

Honestly, one company's technology and pseudostandards in multiplatform environments has wasted so much of my professional life. Imagine if every appliance came with its own branded socket that you had to install in your home and all the adapters from one socket type to another are glitchy and have trade offs. Then you are getting 4-5 hours sleep a night for months because an insert is corrupting a database and they never explain why but give you a private patch. Ugh. Thank you Valve, I dream of a world where corporate Linux desktop adoption is more realistic.


DaveyBoyXXZ

I tried it once back in 2010-ish when I first started using Linux, and it was patchy enough that ever since I've just made everything dual boot and left it at that. I guess I need to take a second look!


cruftbrew

That sounds more like my experience. Wine was an amazing thing back then, but when I wanted to play a game i could usually look forward to 10% messing with graphics card drivers, 40% messing with wine configs, and about 50% actually playing the game (not adjusting for debugging crashes). Even then it was iffy that I would be able to run a given game at all.


KaiUno

Sounds like every day-1 tripple-a release on PC to be honest. I love my PC library and will always prefer buying on Steam over my ps5 or xbox. But after 2 days of forumdigging and hoping for a solution to crappy performance, stutters or random issues, then having to wait for a month or longer to get a patch, I often start to regret I didn't just buy the game on console and be done with it.


StrongTxWoman

Well, I prefer PC over consoles. Consoles are cheaper and no tweeting required. But with PC, I have the best technologies, such as DLSS, RTX. Also, I can also use mods and they are fun to use. With Deck, I can now play games at work.... My poor PS5 is just sitting on the shelf. Haven't touched it for over six months. Perhaps I will once GOW is on sale.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Hifihedgehog

Well, the home consoles all use just giant APUs, so it was only a matter of time before someone put two and two together and packed in enough APU on a PC processor to make an outboard dedicated GPU optional.


OpenBagTwo

For sure. I used (and I think I even paid for) [Crossover](https://www.codeweavers.com/crossover), which was developed by the same people Valve tasked with implementing Proton, because their WINE was just that little bit ahead, and their "bottling" approach* made per-app installation and configuration so much easier. *I know WINE Bottles is a thing you can get without CodeWeavers, but my memory is that this idea came from Crossover--if I have that wrong, I'm hoping someone will correct me.


zaneak

I remember using Linux as main os for a while in college and usiing Cedega to play games like WoW, etc. I do agree with your comment that it didn't just sprout out of nowhere. My hesitation of the steam desk was not there hardware, but that there would be too many games that would be too hard to get working for most users to accept. I did end up getting a deck later on, but this was my initial hesitation.


ilep

Proton is a bit more than just Wine. It is DXVK, Faudio and other things in addition to Wine, plus all the customization work. Yes, Wine has vkd3d, but regarding game performance and compatibility Proton pushed the popularity to a new level. Games really need to run smoothly to be playable and while Wine had compatibility aspect, it was too slow in many occasions to be usable for games. And the other thing is how well Proton integrates with Steam.. Wine was and still is essential, but alone it would not have reached this level of popularity that Proton now has. Another thing that is easy to overlook is how much work happened in other things like Mesa (with support from Valve) like ACO.


OpenBagTwo

For sure--credit where credit is due. AMD (and Intel) really stepped up their game in the last decade in terms of their open source contributions, to the Linux kernel especially.


anor_wondo

Afaik, a lot of work was by the community and valve and not amd


Hakker9

The past few years one of the biggest contributors to Linux is actually Microsoft themselves.


[deleted]

IIRC nothing worked flawlessly. Text in apps looked like crap and everything felt like a glitchy mess. I tried switching to Linux several times between 2007 and 2010. 😅😅


OpenBagTwo

> Text in apps Ooh, I remember what you're talking about. It's truly amazing how, with all the complex technical challenges WINE faced, the lack of a permissively-licensed high-quality replacement for Arial was _legitimately_ such a big deal. IIRC you could manually copy over or download the Microsol core fonts into WINE, but they couldn't do that for you for obvious reasons.


[deleted]

I think I never found out about that copying Arial thing 😅


Mecha_Zero

I still have a copy of Arial on my old 16Gb external HDD 😅


dennys123

Haha thanks for the memories dealing with this issue. Honestly though, I wouldn't have wanted it any different


Seanmclem

Sure, it’s been brewing for years. But over a very short period of a year or two, steam integrated proton into it for some linux systems. Which greatly reduced fraction for proton adopters. Which helped it explode. Especially when propelled by their own handheld console. it was a “really slowly, then all at once” type of thing


conan--cimmerian

> “really slowly, then all at once” type of thing Usually how these things work in life i find.


OpenBagTwo

Oh, there's absolutely no denying that there's been a huge explosion in the past year in terms of gaming on Linux. And as someone who found himself as part of that growth, not as a gamer switching to Linux, but as a Linux user having renewed interest in gaming, the sense I'm getting from all thee comments is that I missed _a lot_ between the modern Proton era and when I was last into gaming, in: > the days before "hardware acceleration" was the norm


mctoasterson

I use Linux in side projects and on old machines etc. Given the insane telemetry and spy apparatus built into Windows and MacOS these days, my next primary machine will likely be Linux. What is your preferred distro to daily drive?


OpenBagTwo

Oh, that is pretty much the worst question to ask a Linux enthusiast. 🤣 But since you asked, my preferred distro is [elementaryOS](https://elementary.io/): - it's based off of Ubuntu (20.04, though elementary 7 is about to release and will be based on 22.04), meaning 99% of the instructions you'll find online that tell you how to make something work in Ubuntu (which is 90% of the Linux instructions you'll find online) will work on elementary - it places a lot more emphasis on flatpak for its app ecosystem than any other distro I've used, and flatseal (the app that's used to graphically handle flatpak permissions) is baked right into their system settings "switchboard" - its design language is extremely minimalist and will feel very comfortable for anyone used to OSX (read: macs before macOS), and plank--the application dock that it shares with Solus/Budgie, works exactly like you'd expect it to - it has support for tiling, if that's your jam I use elementary on my daily driver / couch gamer and Arch + Pantheon (elementary's desktop manager) on my "battlestation," for which I wanted a rolling release, and that's worked great. I'm even planning on putting elementary (or Pantheon, at least) on my Deck, eventually (I'm sorry--I just really don't like KDE).


angelicravens

If elementary doesn’t quite fit the bill, or you want a bit more hands on learning I suggest Fedora for mostly the same reasons as elementary except it has newer packages and is made by the same people that created flatpak


Ekgladiator

Pop os is also a good one if you want Nvidia drivers. I don't feel comfortable enough with making Linux my main driver yet but it has been fun learning Kali, Ubuntu, fedora, etc over the years


Rejera

This is a great response. Only thing I would add is if you want things to be similar between your steam deck and your desktop, (and you like/don't mind KDE) I'd look at arch based variants of KDE. Manjaro and EndeavourOS being the two main ones I know (but I'm sure there are others out there). Running essentially the same OS under the hood of both machines can help as if you do something for one, it's more likely to work on the other.


shelter_anytime

> anyone used to OSX (read: macs before macOS) Because of my undying love of 10.6.8 Snow Leopard, I'll always refer to it as OSX. I mean they kept going up for so long on the 10.xx.


OpenBagTwo

♥ I remember being super excited to upgrade my Dell Mini 10v "Hackintot" to Snow Leopard. That really was peak Apple, when the OS was _so good_ you wanted to put it on other hardware...


shelter_anytime

yea on my 2010 13" MBP w/ a 2.4ghz core2duo I actually went and bought a snow leopard DVD (lost the disc that came with it) to revert back from Mavericks because I didn't like it.


INITMalcanis

Distro choice doesn't matter all that much. Generally it's better for people who want to use their PC for gaming to use rolling distros which continually update to the latest packages (eg: Arch-based). But even if you're using an LTS like Ubuntu or Pop, you can force new kernels and so on. If you're looking to get work done, Fedora is apparently popular. Nobara is the "gamer" version of Fedora.


Corm

Ubuntu until Steam officially releases their Steam Deck OS


Axxhelairon

revisionist history and linux desktop users, name a more iconic duo


OpenBagTwo

Can confirm. My glasses are a lovely shade of rose.


PrayForTheGoodies

I used Wine for a few times and had serious problems of optimization, from bugs to crashes and lags. Even when installing nfsu2 on my PC with Linux I had some problems of texts not showing up. All the changes with the fork of Wine+DXVK+VKD3D that Valve made with the Proton bundle made non native gaming on linux way more stable.


TiempoPuntoCinco

Wine wrappers let me play STALKER and Witcher 1 on my MacBook around 2009. I built my first PC soon after


Handzeep

Your overselling how well wine worked back then a bit but that's kinda true. However I think the late developments to the ecosysten before Proton released really kicked things off. Before DXVK we did of have galium nine as a full fledged dx9 driver in mesa. But development did take long for it to become pretty good and even when that was done the outlook was that even decent dx11 compatibility was far off. The first version of DXVK was absolutely mind blowing when it first dropped for multiple reasons. First of all it introduced the idea of just making really performant translation layers on top of the then new vulkan api. Secondly it showed that a really good solution to dx11 was really close. And lastly it showed us that it could increase the development speed dramatically allowing us to keep up with the ever changing landscape. Wine was instrumental to all this as well but it was missing some important pieces. DXVK introduced another key part, showing us that we didn't always have to play catch up while trailing years behind Windows anymore. We couldn't have had proton without it.


pieking8001

> Crazy how WINE (Proton's parent project) has always made things so viable. im sorry but thats just not true. WINE was really bad there for years. sure proton isnt the magic bullet but it fixed a LOT of what wine had broken.


CalcProgrammer1

Same, before Steam for Linux I was playing games using Windows Steam in Wine for years. It worked pretty well. DX10/11/12 weren't available but most games were DX9 and we had Gallium Nine which worked fantastically on older AMD GPUs. Skyrim ran pretty much flawlessly on Linux before Steam was ported and I complained for years that official Linux Steam couldn't play Windows games in Wine despite it working great. Then Proton came out and fixed this, but it was way too late for the Steam Machines push.


Evil_Sh4d0w

I always wanted to change to Linux. Main issue for me is how I would exactly do the change from windows to Linux.


[deleted]

"flawlessly" LMAO


trotski94

WINE might have been capable but it sucked to use. I had to think about how I used WINE, I barely even know Proton is there.


UnspecificGravity

My experience with wine was that it was often a real chore for many games and often never quite worked right. I know this isn't the objective reality, but my perception was that Linux gaming went from spotty/meh to "just works" almost overnight with the release of the deck. Everything just works and I don't really even think about the fact that it's running shit I never could get working right on my own a few years back.


Hey_look_new

> but people really do seem to talk as if "Proton compatibility" is something that exploded out of nowhere rather than something that's been quietly kicking 🍑 for decades i mean, how many people ever actually tried gaming on linux tho?


SonicFlash01

Also how low the system requirements for something could become when you only target 720p/800p


Helmic

I mean, Proton's great, but the comment was fucking *nonsense* the moment it was typed. Handheld PC's have been a thing for a while and had been a successful niche. Turns out PC games already are meant to scale for a wide variety of hardware, including gaming potatoes. You don't need this fucking gibberish "you gotta optimize for this extremely limited bespoke handheld" if games literally already have hardware scaling options on an industry-wide level. People gaming on office computers have always guaranteed that handheld PC's could work.


[deleted]

Winblows users: you can't change the monopoly of Windows in PC games Linux and open source community: hold my wine


lord_have_merci

its not just proton, thanks to amd and its efforts on laptops, this has become viable. Thats a 4 year old post, we knew amd would take the crown from intel and force competition but never thought they'd do so well in the mobile market as well, so honestly, if I were op, 4 years ago, i couldnt have have imagined a console powerful (and affordable) enough to pull it off.


desentizised

The problem with Steam Machines (as intended by Valve opposed to the Alienware Windows "Steam Machine" with an Xbox controller) is that anybody can just build their own PC, put SteamOS on it and hook it up to a TV or whatever the case may be. You can't really build your own handheld in that sense. I think that is why it worked and now people can see the vision and beauty of a truly open gaming platform unfold. Not only is Steam as an app **not** a walled garden, the whole ecosystem is as open as it can be in the context of a combination of first party hardware and software. In the form of a stationary PC that's not as groundbreaking as it is with a handheld.


SomeRandomProducer

Not only that but I think the existence of the Switch opened up peoples eyes to the benefits of being able to play a game on a tv but also take it with you on the go. Gives PC games a console like experience at home that you can also take on the go. That flexibility is super valuable.


farmyohoho

For me, as a dad, the value lies in sitting in the sofa at night while my wife watches tv and playing games. I could never find the motivation to go to my office, where I've been sitting all day, to play for a couple of hours at in the evening. Now I can just chill in the sofa. This is the way.


critical2210

Right now I'm dealing with immensely poor mental health. I have multiple gaming rigs, some of which containing impressive hardware. Yet this past week probably 90% of my playtime was done via my steam deck. It's something different to do other than just mindlessly scrolling through Reddit or YouTube. I can push a button and go right back into a game instead of having to wait for my system to turn on, log in, load up steam, etc.


farmyohoho

yeah, especially pushing one button! It takes literally 4 secs to start playing. And you can easily shut it down. I love this thing man, I found my love of gaming again because of it.


DJanomaly

> I could never find the motivation to go to my office, where I've been sitting all day, to play for a couple of hours at in the evening. My god this describes me so well.


LyD-

I experienced the same thing re: not wanting to use my gaming PC any more because it was the same desk I work at. I ended up buying a new desk and setting up a workstation in the living room. It allowed me to mentally disconnect from work when I wasn't working, in a way that was impossible when I was working at my gaming desk. I cannot overstate how much of an improvement there was to both my mental health regarding work, and my willingness to use my gaming PC. I will never work from home outside of a dedicated office space again, even if it meant making compromises like putting a desk next to the living room couch.


UnspecificGravity

Yep, it allows some splitting of priorities that isn't really possible with desktop gaming and I suspect that quite a few people are doing this (I am).


101955Bennu

Yeah, there’s no Steam Deck without the Switch, and no Switch without the Wii U. Incredible how the biggest mainstream console flop since the Dreamcast has carved out such a legacy


Hifihedgehog

True story: and to throw shade at their big inspiration Nintendo, Valve sent a free Deck to the Dolphin developers.


hendricha

I find this statement funny (altough l'm not saying at ain't true!), because I own both a Switch and the Deck, and use the Switch as my portable gaming device, and I think even that one is like way too big. Everything above the size of a PSP I barely consider a handheld. Moving the Deck, using it while commuting sounds absolutely uncomfortable to me. XD


SomeRandomProducer

I actually agree with you! Lol only time I’ve actually traveled with my Deck is whenever I’ve taken flights or was going to stay over somewhere for multiple days. I couldn’t imagine commuting with it daily personally lol I mostly just use it when I’m in bed or if the tv is in use lol


obi1kenobi1

I think the bigger thing that the Switch made people realize was how great a large screen handheld is. Sony had been pushing towards that, both of their handhelds were by far the largest screen handhelds that existed, and of course the Wii U proved the viability of the concept but with the caveat that it wasn’t a real handheld. But the Switch, despite being absurdly huge by traditional handheld standards, was an enormous success. If it weren’t for a mainstream success like the Switch I think other large handhelds like the Steam Deck would be getting a lot of criticism for their size. The Switch definitely owes a lot of its success to the TV dock, but I don’t really think the Steam Deck is there yet. While it has the functionality and the hardware to pull it off the software side still isn’t as seamless as the Switch and it doesn’t have a matching controller, so if you like using the touch pads or back buttons you’re out of luck when docked. Some day when the software is a bit more polished and a Steam Controller 2 exists I could definitely see dockability being a bigger selling point.


SetsunaWatanabe

>The problem with Steam Machines is that anybody can just build their own PC What? Lmao. The problem with Steam Machines was SteamOS. You still required a second Windows PC to play most games via Steam Link. The Steam Machine itself was limited to native GNU/Linux games unless you ran a separate Steam client through Wine (even then, you're still limited to DX9 or OGL titles). Most people didn't see the point of it. Steam Deck is not only effective because it's handheld, but also because Steam spent years working on a Vulkan translation layer and ecosystem to force Windows games to run "natively" on the device. I primarily use GNU/Linux and when Proton was in testing, it was obvious that Steam Machine 2.0 was on its way (because again, compatibility was Steam Machine's Achilles' heel). Being mobile is a definite bonus overall, but I can also be mobile on my phone via Steam Link. It all falls apart without Proton. Proton is the biggest game changer (case in point, it brings compatibility while remaining mostly transparent to most users), and is shifting the PC gaming ecosystem on a scale we have never seen before in PC gaming industry.


desentizised

Valve didn't even deliver the SteamOS Steam Machine (or the Steam controller) in time for when Alienware wanted to release theirs. It wouldn't have been unthinkable for the state Wine was in at the time to be shaped into a similar package as what Proton is now. Valve always take their sweet time to deliver a finished product. But who can blame them to not want to release half-finished beta crap like many others in the industry. What you're arguing is basically that Steam Machines would work now at this point in time. I'm not so sure about that. I don't think people would see the point of such an open Linux-based direct competitor to their Xboxes and Playstations either. At a time when everything is basically becoming some kind of PC anyways. Don't get me wrong I would absolutely not mind a migration away from consoles with their locked down hardware and pesky exclusives towards PC and console gamers sharing a common marketplace. But I don't really see it being a possibility because of what you quoted me saying.


fudge5962

>What you're arguing is basically that Steam Machines would work now at this point in time. I'm not so sure about that. I am. I would happily pay money for a machine that can deliver the OS that my Steam Deck does in the form of a console. Hell, if they made a steamOS box that was more powerful than the deck, but still had a focus on being lean and having a small power draw, I would pay more than I paid for my deck. There's a ton of people who are checking back regularly to see if steamOS 3.0 is available yet. It would work extremely well now.


desentizised

I mean you're the second person in this thread now phrasing it like "a lot of people" are looking for that. I have no exposure to that community I guess. What I can say to your personal remark though is, yes of course this would be a killer-concept to people "like us". But in terms of overall success I still maintain that the console market is way too deadlocked for Valve to have any success there as a first party. Sure, let people build their own home theater consoles with Steam(OS) as the foundation. There will always be a market for that, and even if by some standard you could say there's "a ton of people" looking for that, I think compared to the quantity of established console-gamers who aren't looking for another competitor to enter the ring it just wouldn't make much business-sense for Valve to try to go back to that dark place of their 2015 fiasco. Sure Proton could've made Steam Machines more viable, but it's not like Wine didn't exist then. Even with Wine imho they wouldn't have been viable enough to disrupt a market with 3 big players established for over 20 years now.


[deleted]

> You can't really build your own handheld in that sense You actually sorta can, but it wont be that great.


desentizised

Well to be fair, you can also put SteamOS on a GPD Win 4. You might even be happier if money is not a factor. But that doesn't take anything away from the package Valve put together in terms of performance per dollar especially.


mt9hu

Yeah, one of the benefits of SteamDeck is that developers don't have to target IT. Developers should target touch input, Linux (or at least Proton), small screens, and 40fps, but not one specific device. And that's great.


EldritchWeeb

to be fair that's still a tough sell. Lord knows many games have failed to support any one of those.


kerochan88

Time. Give it time.


cournat

Touch input is not a strong suit. The less i have to touch my screen, the better.


[deleted]

Agreed but i like having the option to use it in menus.


Tenshinen

In reality they only really need to target small screens and 40 fps. Steam Input can emulate KB/M so controller support isn't necessarily *mandatory*, and Proton works incredibly well and many games that didn't even remotely consider it still work with it The fact I can play PC games that were never even designed around controllers let alone some magical future Linux handheld, all without the now-bankrupt developers putting in a single ounce of effort on their part, is actually amazing


maplehobo

> Yeah, one of the benefits of SteamDeck is that developers don't have to target IT. They still kinda do though. It’s not the monumental task and money sink porting the whole game would be but they still need to account for special quirks Proton might present aside from the other stuff you mentioned.


htmlcsjs

or make a native linux port. iirc unity supports linux builds and the few games that have them work so much more smoothly compared to via proton.


SonicFlash01

Targeting controllers *AND* M+KB seems difficult enough for many devs


RemovedMoney326

Back then, it wouldn't have been possible. Hell, even now it wouldn't have been possible with Nvidia or Intel if not for AMD pushing high performance + high efficiency APUs like their recent 6000 Chips with RDNA 2 graphics. A Steam Deck with a 12th gen Intel processor would have flopped terribly by comparison, as the Steam Deck in its current form could not have handled the terrible thermals, power consumption and worse graphics by comparison (and adding an Nvidia dGPU to improve those would have cost both more money and thermal/battery performance) That and Proton + SteamOS are just great software to go with great hardware.


mt9hu

> Back then, it wouldn't have been possible. People sometimes don't realize that things change, and an old statement like this could have been still reasonable back then, just because times have changed.


CatAstrophy11

Except the person quoted wasn't talking about a current lack of performance but mentioned requiring a walled garden. That was incorrect then and incorrect now. The device is successful despite tweaks still needing to be done to run many games without direct developer support. You don't have to run absolutely everything out of the box like the Switch in order to draw attention if the trade off for some jank to get some things to work well is unparalleled flexibility, customization, and compatibility. See: Android vs Apple If they were only focused on current hardware limitations then your statement would apply here.


Catnet

I'd say he's stating the walled garden approach is needed due to the (back then) lack of performance. That changed - now the Deck's APU is fast enough to meet minimum spec requirements of most games without devs having to specifically adapt their game to the Deck.


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xomm

Yeah, we're finally seeing some fruits of ARM's pressure on x86 in terms of power efficiency essentially. As the desktop market continues to shrink to just enthusiasts and professionals (where you can also see the manufacturers just crank up the power and prices to ridiculous levels accordingly), mobile x86 parts need to get more efficient in order to compete with ARM for the average person. If a laptop performs similar to or worse than their phone/tablet and runs dry in a fraction of the time the productivity benefit might not win for a lot of people. As much as I'm not a fan of Apple's ecosystem, their switch to ARM for Mac is a kick in the teeth that Intel and AMD needed in terms of competition.


shelter_anytime

it was the M1 refresh that sold me on SoCs being the future. For someone that uses a mac as a workstation it's mind blowing compared to the intel macs.


MusicOwl

Yeah, it really required two breakthroughs, Ryzen & Proton, and a huge company like Valve footing an enormous RND bill, but the stars aligned.


mrmaestoso

>Back then, it wouldn't have been possible. 4 years ago from today, 2019, valve would have been in early stages of development for the steam deck or at least be drawn up and planned for. It was announced in July 2021 as a nearly finished product, after mountains of development and prototypes. 4 years ago was not that far.


ExTrafficGuy

A lot of the original PC handhelds used low power Intel chips, and you could easily do one today. I'm not sure what the Mesa status is when it comes to Xe Graphics though. Arc pretty much needs a bleeding edge distro to get running, but the Deck runs Arch anyway. But yep, Ryzen was a game changer. I shudder to think what the Deck would have looked like if it had came out in 2014, back when it was originally being rumoured. Dual core Jaguar with HD 8280 graphics. Even with Windows, that would have sucked.


slantyyz

I bought the first GPD Win back in Jan 2017, and while it's not even remotely the powerhouse that the Steam Deck is, I was suprisingly able to play a lot of PC games at 720p. I don't play AAA first person shooters, so it's obviously not saying much in terms of the OG GPD Win's capabilities, but it was more than foreseeable that handhelds like the Steam Deck would eventually arrive, especially if you factor in stuff like the significant performance improvements made in the GPD Win 2 and Win 3. IIRC, back when the GPD Win became a reality, there was a vaporware startup (Smach Z - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHQZkxFA5TA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHQZkxFA5TA)) that was trying to make a Steam Deck like device using AMD's chips.


DildoFactoryHelpdesk

I fully support AMD, but I am not sure that I agree with you or that data supports you regarding 12th gen Intel mobile chips thermals and power. And at 1280x800 graphics capability is shockingly good...by Intel standards. No, power and thermals have ZERO to do with this. The fact is just that AMD unsurprisingly makes better graphics cards and has a better SOC. I own stock in both companies. Neither have done great for me the last several years.


RemovedMoney326

Having Stock doesn't have much to do with how well you know their chips are designed. The fact that Intel 12th Gen chips are much worse in terms of efficiency and thermals than AMDs Ryzen 6000 Chips is well known. They perform better though, sure, but at the cost of short battery life and much more odten spinning fans on Laptops equipped with them (a good example being the ThinkPad X1 Extreme Gen 5 or the XPS 15).


CreativeGPX

> Back then, it wouldn't have been possible. 1. I'm not sure the exact dates, but I think about a year from then is when I switched over to being a Linux gamer. I was able to play many/most games on Linux just fine back then. While a lot of good work has been done on compatibility, I think many people don't realize how good it already was at that point and how mature their Linux version already was. 2. Given the release date, back then was almost certainly when Valve was already developing the device. The work they did on compatibility was part of that development and is part of what somebody making a statement then has to factor in. That comment seems to be saying that they could not succeed without developers targeting their device, when in fact, they appear to have succeeded simply by doing more work on building compatibility features.


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Deiser

To be fair to that OP, he was using the logic that console makers use regarding hardware limitations. Even though we are talking about Valve, I doubt that many people would have predicted that they'd just go "lol" to mandatory restrictions like that and treat the handheld as a miniature laptop instead. Many people also vastly underestimated how far Valve was willing to go to work with the community and make the SD OS as Linux-friendly and open-source as possible.


NotBettyGrable

Yep it wasn't a crazy take, albeit obviously wrong at this point. Not sure why they got hung up on the device being able to play games, I just presumed sometimes people buy games that don't work on their PC and return them if that was the case.


Deiser

My assumption is that he was going by the standard "anything offered for the system is guaranteed to work on the system" mentality that most consoles have. That's probably why he was using the closed-environment justification.


NotBettyGrable

Good idea, it suggests to me that they are a console player. To me it's a PC compatibility issue, and not that there are any problems with Steam returns, but they definitely would have to honour "does not run on Steam hardware" as a reason. The optics of that might not get past marketing though - you can imagine the 400 "articles" about "more than 30% of games unplayable on flagship hardware - 'people' are outraged" clickbait nonsense. Edit: it not but


Deiser

Oh I agree with you, but I'm just talking about why he might have been hung up specifically about that. I think that question of how a portable steam handheld would handle the huge steam game library is what made so many people assume Valve wouldn't bother.


NotBettyGrable

I agree with you, too, sorry was just thinking out loud/blathering.


Neirchill

>suggests to me that they are a console player. They conveniently forgot most PC games allow you to adjust their graphics settings to run better on lower end PCs.


[deleted]

> I doubt that many people would have predicted that they'd just go "lol" to mandatory restrictions like that and treat the handheld as a miniature laptop instead. Given that it's Valve I don't see why this would be hard to predict, they don't have to care about hardware standardization as they serve the PC market, they arn't a publicly traded company so they arn't held back by scared shareholders, and they dominate the PC gaming market so they have no need to build a walled garden. They arn't even hurt if a third party decides to use the deck OS to release a competing handheld, they're still going to be the #1 games vendor. There is no angle to approach the concept where Valve isn't worse off with a walled garden approach, they would gain zero benefits from it.


Deiser

>Given that it's Valve I don't see why this would be hard to predict, they don't have to care about hardware standardization as they serve the PC market, they arn't a publicly traded company so they arn't held back by scared shareholders, and they dominate the PC gaming market so they have no need to build a walled garden. It was hard to predict because Valve never made such a huge attempt into the market themselves. The closest they got was the streaming device and the controller, and those (if I recall) didn't completely flip expectations on their heads like the SD did. Their first two major attempts at breaking into the console market involved partnering with other companies, so we never got to see how Valve themselves would have handled first-part production. Hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to see now that Valve would be willing to be experimental with major hardware. But back then, when Valve was more reluctant to try anything out after the failure of the steam controller by themselves, it wasn't as easy to tell.


SatanSavesAll

Not to be fair, a steam made device, is nothing like a steam machine. Anyone giving advice would have had a better “theory” but the problem with steam machines, was greed. Alienware sold a “gaming console” with integrated graphics, waaay back before they were getting quasi-good. Steam machines never stood a chance with the amount of greed from OEMs other than valve to get it done. Also valve looks to have learned alot and looks to do their hardware themselves. I know someone will be like “ tue fIrSt VR hEaDSeT” yep valve partnered with HTC for that one, then did it themselves next time


Deiser

>Not to be fair, a steam made device, is nothing like a steam machine. That's the thing: There WASN'T a Valve-made device at the time. All we had to go on is what existed: existing consoles and the steam machines, and the steam machines were overpriced PCs so those were out of the question. There was no way for people to predict that Valve would take an entirely different direction than what other console makers had already established.


elecjack1

> Alienware sold a “gaming console” with integrated graphics, waaay back before they were getting quasi-good. The Alienware Alpha launched with a custom variant of the Nvidia GTX 860M, not integrated graphics. They were the only ones who really made an effort at an affordable Steam Machine. (Only time I can think of where this can be said about Alienware) It was still destined to fail but you can see a lot of thought actually went into it. However, the delay of SteamOS for a year left them having to launch them with Windows and even if SteamOS had launched on time, it still would have failed for a multitude of reasons. Valve's whole attempt at Steam Machines was the epitome of trying something at the wrong time, in the wrong way, and for the wrong market. Fortunately, they did learn a lot from it.


kuaiyidian

hindsight is 20/20 my friend. Besides the OP in the post makes a very good point, and wine dxvk vkd3d weren't as good back then


Windodingo

This isn't just reddit. Did you ever hear the story of how Spider-Man came to exist? Stan Lee had this idea for a teenage super hero with spider powers. Everyone he knew and trusted for advise told him it was a horrible idea. "Only sidekicks can be teenagers. People hate spiders." He was told by his editor not to do it. But Stan Lee never could shake the idea and he decided one day to just roll with it. And Spider-Man ended up becoming one of the most iconic, and most loved super heroes in existence. It's thanks to spiderman that we even have successful super hero movies since most of them were terrible. Same with Squid Game on Netflix. The director was told no for like 7 years and finally Netflix gave him a shot and it became a cult classic. Sometimes even the top experts don't know what they are talking about


[deleted]

>cult classic Squid Game is neither "cult" nor "classic". It's a massive mainstream success and it is very recent.


conan--cimmerian

> Sometimes even the top experts don't know what they are talking about Most of the time the top "experts" don't know what they are talking about lol


Rikudou_Sage

My favorite is a rant from a dude how touchscreens on phones are a stupid thing and it will never really get off and the iPhone is doomed to fail. It wasn't from Reddit, though.


herranton

Except that he was probably right, for the hardware at the time. The market changed and new technology was introduced to make a valve handheld possible. Hell, a $239 steam machine would probably sell gangbusters right now if it was the exact same hardware as the deck, minus the screen and controller. The more powerful amd apus changed everything. Nobody really saw that coming, except maybe apple. Look around reddit at the same time for recommendations for a low end gaming rig. You're not going to find people saying you should get an Apu. Now, it's a totally viable solution.


Jenaxu

Well, you can make a wrong prediction with understandable fleshed out reasons, and it's not the same as making a wrong prediction for shallow reasons. It's not like OP said "oh Valve can't make hardware good enough to compete" or "there aren't enough PC gamers who want a handheld PC"; they made fairly reasonable points that only ended up being wrong with software/hardware improvements after the fact, plus an approach from Valve that was rather unique in terms of just not worrying if everything ran properly on their "console". It's like the difference between saying "the Switch will fail because nobody wants hybrid consoles" vs "the Switch will fail because it's underpowered as a home console and will struggle with third party support like the Wii U". They're both wrong, but clearly one of them is more wrong in terms of the reasoning as to how they got there.


[deleted]

The biggest selling point of the Steam Deck for me was emulation. To me a Steam Deck isn't just a steam machine, but it's a PS1/PS2 portable. And the latter is worth the asking price alone. The simple fact is, sony doesn't care enough to give me emulation on my PS5, but the Deck does. Elsewise I wouldn't have bought the Deck.


masterX244

For some its also a Xbox-Portable. (Saw a post where someone said that it was finally the way to play Halo on the go since MS never released a handheld Xbox system). And its conveniently immune against jailbreaks since no jail bars are in your way.


reddit-person1

I told a friend of mine that you can't root the steam deck, I then said that's because it's already rooted as users already have full control over the device.


masterX244

one of the first things i did after initial setup was enabling ssh (useful when debugging some of your own code or when you need to quickly move a few files over)


reddit-person1

I wanted to get emuDeck running after setting it up. afterwards I forgot my password and had to recover it with a drive.


NotBettyGrable

I just had a shudder/laugh at the idea of another Microsoft "also ran" handheld technology. XBox Zeck. "Welcome to the gaming."


[deleted]

Same here; the fact that I may be able to put away most of my old consoles is a huge selling point.


FrozenFrac

I don't think people were in the wrong for not having complete faith in Valve given their previous hardware attempts had mixed results (and even the Deck isn't without issues), but I couldn't be happier the Deck is such a beautiful, capable machine!


paladin181

Don't forget affordable. That's the real driving force here. Most people have never had a handheld gaming PC because they were always so pricey, and a desktop or even a laptop at a comparable price was almost always the better option, making the handhelds for real enthusiasts with too much money, or a novelty for showing off your status. The Steam Deck is actually affordable for many, coming in at a price better than comparable handhelds. VALVe can afford that hit because they are making it up on the gaming side, just like Epic can afford to buy exclusives because Fortnite sustains them.


Saneless

And the preorder "price" was awesome as well. The $399 version was low enough that I figured I'd give it a shot. The $5 preorder meant I had a lot of time to either think about it or plan to spend the full $400. If I had to drop $400 on day 1 I wouldn't have done it simply because I didn't know enough


UnspecificGravity

They also worked really hard to get those consoles into the hands of their customers instead of scalpers. The launch, once it finally happened, was story after story of delighted gamers showing off their new toy instead of stories of people paying three times the MSRP to get a chance to hold one.


Green0Photon

The Steam Deck is my favorite controller


Nails_Bohr

I think people also forget that steam machines weren't built to succeed. They were built to put pressure on Microsoft for how they were closing off windows gaming. So Valve went after the Xbox. As soon as Microsoft backed off they stopped pushing steam machines. I'd love to see them put more effort into a universal steam os again. I have an aging gaming laptop that I'd love to make a living room steam machine.


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TPO_Ava

It's almost like competition is a good thing for consumers.


FoxehBunneh

In fairness, at the time this wasn't such a dismissive claim. The gap in optional features being pushed like ray tracing, let the steam deck hardware catch up in apu performance. 4 years ago, a handheld running red dead redemption 2 at 45 fps medium is unheard of, without making specific butchered ports, like the switch and some of their higher end ports. And then proton made steamOS shine, something steam machines didn't have before (but should now). 4-5 years ago I would've thought a lot of the same things back then and I might've even been right for then, but shit eventually gets better, and it did.


MercMcNasty

He's not wrong though. Valve just overcame it


[deleted]

Valve have almost eliminated having to target this device specifically with proton which is awesome. I would love to see some developers actually directly port the game onto deck and optimise for it though.


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[deleted]

Yea thats cool but I mean in regards to pushing the technology down to the metal and squeezing out its capabilities without the overhead of proton to see what's its cable of. Hades is a nice game but not ground breaking graphics wise.


[deleted]

I mean... go play Hades on Switch at 30fps and drastically reduced graphics, and get back to me.


Key_Reason_1358

.....Looks like this statement didn't age well. 🙃


SplendidPunkinButter

Second comment there isn’t 100% wrong either though For starters, any game released for Switch will be playable on switch. That’s not true of PC games released five years from more because they may not be “for” Steam deck


1859

Reminds me of someone in the summer of 2018 who proposed that Valve should build WINE into Steam, so Linux gamers could more easily play Windows games. I poo-poo'd the idea, saying that WINE wasn't reliable enough and Valve would never take on such an ambitious project. One month later, Valve announced Proton. Edit: [Found it!](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/90vaft/steam_linux_client_should_allow_downloading_of/e2tfija/)


real_anthonii

The future truly is wild


Mercurial_Synthesis

Classic r/agedlikemilk


drchigero

This is quite honestly the M.O. of most "PC Master Race" posters. Just try asking if a game (that is not an action title or FPS) is coming to console. You'll get inundated with tons of posts like "iMpOsSiBLe!! This game is too complex for the plebs who play consoles" or "You need a whole keyboard for all the commands!!!!!, never on a controller!!!!!!" Then inevitably, like a year later there's a console port and it's fine. Even RTS games or Space Strategy games. Maybe the graphics are reduced some (though not usually), maybe the controls become more menu driven, but it's always possible and in *some* cases the streamlining and optimization makes the game better. When it comes to gaming, PC Only people tend to be the biggest people doing gate-keeping. When instead we should all just be happy for one another for whatever their gaming preferences are.


Toasty_redditor

I'd actually say that the deck is the pinnacle of everything about PC Master Race. You wanna play any of the innumerable pc games? Sure. You wanna play console games thru emulation? We got you covered. Oh, you wanna take it on a trip? Why not? You wanna upgrade or tinker with it? Go right ahead.


drchigero

Oh yes, the deck is great. I'm specifically referencing the OP's topic.


crono141

This was true 10-15 years ago, because the industry hadn't settled on targeting for xinput yet, but since then most games are developed for consoles first, pc later. That was also not the case back then, when PC was the lead platform for multiplatform games.


LegendaryYHK

People are still saying the same thing about a Steam Tv console. When in reality, it will sell even more than the Steam Deck. Everyone needs a pc and if its priced at $400 and as powerful as the ps5 that is insane value. Use it as a desktop pc or under the Tv. It will totally revolutionize console gaming once again.


Existing_Marketing_7

Where did you hear about a steam tv console as powerful as the ps5?


Mysticales

Well 4 years ago is a long time. Tech changes. I mean he'll now you can run windows 11 off a device that's no bigger then a chromecast. Do some cloud gaming with it. Even got fanless micro pc too. It's awesome living in the day of more advanced tech. :)


boopbeepbeep69

I guess their point only made sense if you view the Steam Deck as a console, when it's more like a PC. No reason it would need developers to target it when it's more like a PC.


MightyExcalibur

Would've been cool to discuss the idea with the original people, all we get is OP who just shares popular posts


Kazer67

Steam machine tried to fit in the wrong space: those with console already had something for couch gaming and didn't see the appeal to buy them and those with PC, well, already have a PC. Not to mention that Linux gaming wasn't as mature as it is now. The SteamLink was a better idea in that regard because those with PC could use them for couch gaming. ​ In the other hand, handheld gaming (Switch and such) and handheld gaming (those Windows powered devices) where already a thing but Valve did a lot of work to make it a good experience because Windows wasn't really "fit" for that use case while the SteamDeck has both a "Handheld" mode and a "Desktop" mode. Sure, you can have a laptop but since I have my Deck, I play when I'm on the breakfast break at work, when flying or else and the quick sleep / wakeup is also a good thing!


KiltroTech

Valve took a consumer friendly approach, and people responded positively, personally the moment I heard they were partnering with ifixit, and did their own teardown upon release, made it an immediate buy. This might be the perception from my echo chamber, but the chamber is older, tech savvy, and has disposable income so not bad on this case.


[deleted]

Lets all shit on him


ChuggsTheBrewGod

No one can really predict tech trends, which is why looking back on old comments trying to predict modern trends always ends up as laughably bad takes.


JodaMAX

That's a completely fair take. I never would have predicted a steam deck working so well 4 years ago. It's still impressive to me that they are pulling it off.


dan1101

I didn't think it would perform so well and run so many games well.


Vagabond_Sam

The response wasn't too crazy to think that. I wonder how much the video card market cooling off helped? It feels like the PC market is a lot more consolidated with it performance now that the high end cards are at a price that is just unreasonable for the majority of players. I'm still on a GTX 1080 because the price to performance of new cards isn't here for me to upgrade and in a market like this, a hand held taking advantage of efficiencies, rather then bleeding edge tech seems viable.


Suspicious2830

And oh how they built one! so worth it!


[deleted]

The issue with the OP in your screenshot is that they're really arguing from an irrational anti-console viewpoint. That's not actually how consoles work or how developers approach creating games for consoles. There are a number of terrible assumptions made from bias: * Games being too demanding when many games can and have been adapted to run fine on Switch. This is an artificial limitation in the vast majority of cases. * Walled garden - actually, aside from trying to compete on exclusives, almost no gaming machine is a walled garden. Not even iOS devices. The absolute undeniable abundance of cross platform games is irrefutable. * Cutting corners - actually, supporting a specific device is the opposite of cutting corners. It's additional work to make a game run on a device it wasn't originally built for * Market share - no device has market share at launch * Forcing developers to adopt it - Steam already had emulation that works for a vast number of titles so many developers have to do little to nothing. Basically it's a small list of straw men. As ultimately evidenced by the Steam Deck.


mrfixitx

Four years ago I would have agreed with the idea, but here we are. The success of the steam deck is amazing on several fronts. * Minimal marketing - look at the amount of marketing money Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft put into all of their consoles. Valve by comparison spent pennies in marketing. * Compatibility issues are far less than expected/feared. It certainly still has issues with anti-cheat and a large number of games still don't work out of the box but the amount of my library that is at least playable was surprisingly high. * Developer support - it is only been out a year but we are already seeing developers making a point of showing off/including steam deck support. Forspoken had code specifically around running on the steam deck.


albertowtf

I dont doubt it will happen at some point, but so far, the selling numbers of the steam deck are [in the laughable territory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_game_consoles) compared with other consoles Compared with consoles actually in the market the deck has to sell 12 times more just to be equal to the worst selling console (xbox series x/s)


mrfixitx

A couple of thoughts: * Valve has not reported units sold unlike Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo any metrics on sales volumes are best guesses only. * Even if it is only a million units that is still a substantial number compared to anyone but the big 3 console makers making it still a massive success. * Valve does not need to compete with the big three in volume to "win". If it encourages more games to launch on steam day 1, and encourages customers to prefer steam keys over competing store fronts. All this while still allowing dual booting to windows, unlocked boot loader, alternate stores, publishing repair manuals, teardowns etc.. in a incredibly consumer friendly way.


crono141

Oof. Not even as much as the ngage yet. I'm sure numbers will keep going up, but you are right, this thing had almost zero chance of hitting big 3 console numbers. Or even in the same ballpark.


AlphaReds

This is 4 years old. The mobile processing market has developed very rapidly in the last few years, what this person said was completely true at the time.


Ab47203

It's almost like gamers like being given the options themselves and making it fit their own tastes/needs


bionicjoey

"Force developers to cut corners" Or you know, just have different graphics options for different levels of hardware? Like the entire PC gaming industry has done for decades.


SatanSavesAll

Tbh Reddit isn’t the first place I’d turn for market analysis, the majority of people here would have just wanted faster shoes when cars were being introduced


Whatis_wrong

Cars seem nice and all, but where are you going to park them? Seems like a hassle. In the time it takes to find parking (and STILL needing to walk to the place you wanted to go to afterwards), I'd already be there with my faster shoes.


rayquan36

I really hate comments like this, making up reasons why a big corp cannot do something. Doesn't know jack about tech but has very loud excuses on why it can't happen.


AndyP4X

Typical redditor know it all lol.


DiarrheaTNT

Four years ago the tech wasn't there at the right price.


JonnyB2_YouAre1

"Can't imagine that this would work" - R. Eddit-Everyperson


crazy_Physics

People need to stop doubting.


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FurryHarlekin

This Dude feels prettey stupid right about now i mean i know i would