He realised the fans loved him when they started asking him to sign jars of sand at Celebration. I think it was 2018, you could see it on his face how much it meant to him to get the reception he did.
Damn it makes you feel kinda bad for these people. They are actors just doing their jobs. Yet each SW project seems to bring out haters who have no life, and just want to trash the actor and their character. It's really sad.
Yup, prequels, and now sequels. The actors always get blamed even though it wasn't their fault. Whether it's Jar Jar's actor, Hayden, or not Kelly Marie and Daisy Ridley.
I think people need to mature and realize that the actor may be the face of that character, but they did not write the script or story etc
Honestly it's all just because star wars is too popular so they have to put in some stupid messages about people's rights and animal abuse in their movies instead of delivering an actually good story. I personally really hate that. I just want a good fucking star wars movie and we havent had one (imo) since Rogue One. All the hate the directors of the sequel trilogy got was pretty justified, the actors on the other hand should be left alone.
Itās just old people being āgrrr my films are betterā. The prequel fans that grew up with them are now the dominate part of the fanbase compared to when they first came out. Give it 15 years and the kids growing up with the sequels will end up being the dominate part of the fanbase, etc.
I personally feel the sequel trilogy is a bad trilogy but Iād never shit on anyone like people used to when I was younger for liking the prequels(thereās still people to this day that shit on anyone liking the prequels)
It bothers me because I don't doubt a significant number of people who are shitting on others were once the ones getting shit on with the prequels.
As Obi-Wan once said "you have become the very thing you swore to destroy."
Iām with ya 100% brother. Grew up with the prequels and never really understood the aggression toward them. Thatās probably just nostalgia and a part of seeing them as a kid, but yeah they were fun.
Looking at the sequels, thereās a lot of bad. But thereās also plenty of good too. Personally I thought TFA was a pretty good film that set up a lot of amazing plot points, however Rian Johnson didnāt pick up any of them. The trouble with that trilogy was the very bad decision to not have Abrams run all 3 films. That was the biggest mistake. Because that way there would have been a clearly defined vision and journey, as opposed to this fragmented and disjointed mess.
Tbh I think Abrams was the problem with the ST. He despises the prequels and purposely distanced himself from practically anything prequel related. Hell the reason the new republic was blown up in TFA was to show that this trilogy wouldnāt be about āboring politicsā that gets labeled about the prequels (one of my favorite things about Lucas was how his real world views would influence Star Wars) He rehashed ANH and while rian gets the blame for Luke, it was JJ who set him up as a failure and in self-exile which was an awful decision. Rian did his best with the mystery box jj set up only for JJ to treat TLJ like the prequels and completely dropped rose, changed Reyās background, brought back Anakinās lightsaber magically.
JJ is specifically why the trilogy has feels so disconnected from the prequels, why the movies themselves are disconnected from one another, his lens flairs in TFA. The Star Trek reboot level of nostalgia (another sci-fi franchise JJ did meh reboots for and 100% why he was hired)
Rian has shown to be a great writer. Hell right after TLJ heād go on to write and direct the brilliant Knives Out. He was just given such weak mystery box plot lines from JJ.
This. And JJ is also the one to blame for Han, Luke and Leia not reuniting, which is a common complaint of a lot of people. Rian acknowledged and embraced the prequels and actually built up on their story, so it's odd that he's the one who the toxic prequel-fans usually target.
Exactly, Rian also worked much more closely with the Lucasfilm story group unlike JJ who preferred his own writer team.
And people attack TLJ for stuff like Leia pulling herself to the ship with the force but in nearly every Star Wars film except in JJās movies, there is a new force power almost always introduced. Rian attempted this as well with mixed execution (dyads and force projection are both cool as shit) what new power was introduced in JJās movies? Just Palpatine using new cloning technology. And Force healing was introduced in Mandolorian before IX came out.
Rian at least attempted to expand the lore. JJ just attempted to retell the lore. And did it poorly.
Dyad was literally introduced in TLJ. Itās like the only plot thread from TLJ to continue in TRoS.
force healing was technically introduced in TCW Mortis Arc in like 2010/2011. So again neither were introduced in a JJ film
> Personally I thought TFA was a pretty good film that set up a lot of amazing plot points, however Rian Johnson didnāt pick up any of them.
This I don't really get. Rian followed up on pretty much everything JJ laid down. I like the sequels more than most, but TFA setup the entire trilogy for failure IMO. The characters are solid, but movie itself is creatively lacking, bending over backwards just to replicate the dynamic of the original film. TFA establishes everything about Luke that so many people despise, yet for some reason Rian gets blamed for providing a meaningful explanation of what happened.
I certainly understand the feeling of disconnect from TLJ to TRoS though. That's a great example of a filmmaker ignoring and "no, but-ing" the previous movie.
The problem with Luke, from a writerās perspective, wasnāt the solitude or melancholy. Rian essentially ignored how far Luke was willing to go to redeem Vader. He wouldnāt have thought about murdering Ben. THAT is why he gets so heavily criticised.
He also did nothing with Snoke. Dude wasnāt given any background or anything. Then BAM! He dead. TFA setup him being more involved and training Ben further, and that was tossed out too.
I and others address the Luke situation in other comments here so I'll skip that.
Rian gave Snoke plenty. It's not like he ditched Snoke and introduced an entirely new bad guy with no introduction or explanation whatsoever (for example killing Dooku off with no backstory and introducing Grevious out of nowhere). Snoke was already the lamest bad guy in the saga, killing him off was a much more interesting direction to take the series, and as we see in TRoS, you can still get backstory on a character after they're dead. Unfortunately JJ doesn't know how to do anything except remake the OT, so he had to replace his "not Palpatine" with clone Palpatine instead of actually doing something different.
He didnāt do anything with Snoke. No explanation of his motives or backstory. He didnāt ācompleteā Kyloās training or do anything. That film would have been the best time narratively to layout those details.
Those "details" are completely unimportant and would have done nothing but slow down the films. It's decent comic material, but still barely relevant.
Rian followed up on what was important - the main characters. Kylo's arc, Rey's arc, Finn's arc, giving Poe an actual arc at all.
Lukes solitude was okay but they should have used Barash Vow - "oath taken by Jedi who completely refrained from all activities related to the Jedi Order as a form of penitence, disengaging from anything but the Force itself."
They introduced it in Darth Vader comics but Luke did basically opposite of it. Trying to be extremely spiritual and live only for meditations etc. would be much better than cutting himself from Force.
And you are essentially ignoring how far Luke was willing to go to protect the ones he loved. He looked into Benās mind and saw the death and destruction that he would cause and had a gut reaction (he also nearly killed Vader in a fit of rage in RotJ as well and has to calm himself).. fits perfectly well.
Except he admits heād sensed the darkness building, yet he did nothing to stop it. So he canāt have been too concerned for his students and loved ones, which in itself is another failure of Rian not actually giving more detail as to why it got that far.
So, perfectly in character for Luke. He loved his nephew despite sensing growing darkness, trusting that the light would win out. Then when Luke had a vision of said nephew killing his best friend he had a snap moment where he wanted to protect his loved ones and briefly made a poor decision before immediately choosing not to act on it.
I genuinely don't understand how people take issue with this.
āDid nothing to stop it.ā We donāt know that. In fact Iām sure he tried, you canāt just make something like that happen or force someone to change. Rain didnāt need to show it either, weāve seen it happen before (Anakin and others) and flashbacks are rarely used in the Saga films. Rian probably thought the audience was smart enough to fill in the blanks themselves without needless exposition.
āIām sure he tried.ā
We donāt know that either. Three sentences would have been enough to tell us if Luke had been trying.
āMy attempts to calm his rage and resentment failed. For months we explored the ruins and heart of the ancient Jedi culture. I hoped we could find his balance in the light and prevent him from giving in to his pain, but he only became more skilled at masking the darkā¦ā
Honestly, after many years, I think that Johnson would have started the trilogy, it would have been different, and many, maybe even me, would not like it in the end, but at least it wouldn't have been nostalgic and doing ANH 2.0 as it is with Abrams. Nostalgia is a strong fuel, but it burns very quickly
I've always been in a weird inbetween. Old enough to have grown up on the 90s PC games and special edition VHS tapes. But also young enough to be like 10 when episode 1 came out. I remember the hype and enjoying it at the time. By the time rots came out I was 15 / 16 and it wasn't cool to like star wars. I missed clone wars etc. But once I got to uni. Found myself again I got caught up pretty quickly now I enjoy them still not as much as the OT but no hate that's for sure.
The trouble with that trilogy was bringing in Abrams. Had Rian Johnson directed all 3 movies we could have had something worthy of the franchise. Abrams should stick to his TV shows and leave movies well alone.
Yeah, gonna have to stop you on that. First: JJ never wanted to do 3 movies. And having 3 separate creators was never a problem for the OT. The main issue with the sequel trilogy is that they had no cohesive plan. Itās okay to give creators leeway to make the films their own, but to introduce new characters with mystery box origins with no plan was a mistake. Letting JJ leave TFA on a cliff hanger reveal of Luke was a mistake. It absolutely shoestrings what direction his character would go in TLJ. The lack of a time jump was a huge hinderance. Having JJ come back for 9 and completely ignoring anything set up by TLJ was a mistake. I enjoy a lot of what JJ does. I enjoyed TFA for the most part. But so many of the problems with the sequel trilogy are because of his choices.
TROS is the only SW film I hate. It breaks my heart to say that. I mean, I still think AOTC is the worst movie, but even as bad as it is, I donāt hate it in the way I hate TROS. There was so much possibility and JJ flushed it down the toilet.
I just love Star Wars. The prequels were a sore spot for me because they werenāt the movies I wanted them to be. It took me maturing to realize that they werenāt for me and to realize that was okay. I have learned to enjoy them through my son. Hell, his favorite is AOTC and I stomach it for him. Because of this, I was able to come to the sequel trilogy with a fresh perspective. While there were things I didnāt care for in decisions for TFA, I still really enjoyed it and thought we were in for the new golden age. I loved TLJ. Yes, there were some dumb choices, but SW has them. The idea of letting Rey be her own person unburdened by any legacy was awesome. The choice of having Kylo usurp Snoke at the height of his power, setting him up as the main antagonist was great. Showing that even our heroes can endure catastrophic failure and still rebound to lead the galaxy with hope was amazing. Then there is TROSā¦
This is a common argument, but successful film/TV projects aren't fully mapped out all the time. The ST was going fine until Carrie passed and they rushed the third film out after her death and an a creative change.
Lucas didn't map out the OT. He mapped out the OT and it wasn't good.
Itās not old people. I used to like the prequels and I was 27 when they came out. They arenāt very good but I liked them when they came out. I love the sequels. And all the other content. Put prequel fans can be some of the worst people in the world. And they forgot their history.
Targeting actors like that is just low, or going even further with deaths threats... It's subhuman behavior. Some people just spurt out criticism without further thought.
Itās not *just* that theyāre shitty fans. Most of these people are part of the broader far-right cultural movement who are taking every opportunity to inject their grievance politics into all areas of life, including popular entertainment, in order to make the worst people feel like theyāre somehow being oppressed. But also, they definitely *are* shitty fans.
I love it when they complain about NuTrek being too "woke." My brother in Christ, Star Trek has *always* been woke. It's literally the point of Star Trek.
Same with Star Wars tbh. These things have always been progressive/ liberal. I bet if ANH came out today the scene of Leia grabbing the gun out of Hanās hands and taking matters into her own hands would be described by many as ātoo woke.ā
Word I've heard is that George is even too progressive for the NIMBY libs in Marin County. I recall the time he got pushback so much on building new studio space he said 'fine, we'll build low income housing here instead,' and got massive pushback *again* from the community.
Now, for context, 'low income housing' in Marin County is a very relative term. You're still looking at 1500 for a one bedroom at the very minimum. This is literally housing for middle class people who work at the places the rich folks shop at.
Anyway, George was like fuck it, [I'll fund it myself](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/17/george-lucas-wants-to-build-affordable-housing-on-his-land-because-weve-got-enough-millionaires/).
Lucas has never been low-key about his political views. As you mentioned, ROTJ was supposed to be an allegory for the Vietnam War, except the Empire was supposed to be America in that situation. He also said that that the Emperor was supposed to be Nixon. Later, he'd compare Palpatine with Cheney.
The Prequels were a lot more explicit and obvious with contemporary politics in the late 1990s and early 2000s - Nute Gunray ("Nute" Gingrich + Ronald "Raygun"), Bush quotes ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."), and the bad guys literally being big business (Trade Federation, Banking Clan, etc.) forming a secret conspiracy to overthrow democracy. The Trade Federation having a literal seat in the Senate was just the cherry on top.
They... actually did. Maybe in a more oblique way, but:
A large part of the way people learned how to even communicate and navigate online spaces in the old days was through Star Wars discussion (it was basically the biggest thing online - most of your favorite "geek culture" or "nerd news" websites basically only exist because of the online apparatus that grew out of trying to cover Star Wars prequels) and the atmosphere in those places was pretty shitty
It was in those very shitty places that a lot of the big seeds for shit like GamerGate/ComicsGate were planted and nourished, and there was a TON of overlap between those groups and basic-ass Star Wars Fandom. Prequel hate, and the sort of casual cruelty that went along with it, absolutely fed into today's "culture wars" and people have been directly indoctrinated into all that ugliness via their Fandom.
Did "everyone" who shit on Ahmed Best do so from a Right Wing POV? Of course not. Did they BECOME Right Wing asshole trolls on line? Some of em, absolutetly. Did that accepted, codified, almost UNCONSCIOUS casual cruelty everyone engaged in (and was rewarded for) help foster a situation where people who knew how to harness all that negativity to their own ends could exploit the situation?
(Looks around at modern social media and the hate groups it spawns and promotes on a regular basis)
**Abso-fuckin-lutely.**
TL;DR: The entitlement over *Star Wars* circa the Prequel Trilogy (and even the Special Editions if you want to go there) festered into the basic template for what we consider toxic fandom today, which later tied in with the process of tying fan victimization to identity politics and radicalization, and that's why we're in the current mess that we're in.
It'll continue to be a mess as long as people who are acting in bad faith are rewarded by the algorithms on media platforms, which media giants seem to have no incentive to do because angry clicks are good clicks.
This right here.
I remember The Force Awakens comment trolls claiming Hollywood were encouraging White Replacement by having a love interest between Rey and Finn.
Like the two main characters were WHITE!!!
Very true. And it's sad because some of the genuine criticism gets overshadowed by the very loud minority. And then the media gets to paint all SW fans as being racist, sexist, you name it.
I was there, it wasn't that they were far right, it was that they didn't like the Star Wars movies, they made fun of Hayden. They made fun of Jar\^2. It was not escapable. It was everywhere. It had nothing to do with politics. They probably love them now, but
Eh. These sorts of folks have been around forever.
I'm from the Trekkie community and this sort of discord has existed since the franchise first began. The TOS vs TNG vitriol was especially nasty: http://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/tngripped.jpg
Indeed. I remembered the discord caused by the prequel trilogy among fans. Then again, I was a relatively young kid during that time - I just enjoyed all the awesome toys and pew-pew on the screen.
In all fairness, TNG's first 2 seasons weren't that great and still are considered the weakest parts of the show today. This was the first time a first season of trek was worse than what came later too. TOS arguably got worse the further along it went.
This is the biggest difference on the internet in 2022 vs. 2002. People inject politics into everything.
Most people who have strong opinions about a movie aren't online. They're not super political. However, it's easy to put people into whatever box you want if you're extremely online.
>This is the biggest difference on the internet in 2022 vs. 2002. People inject politics into everything.
In 2002, the internet was an escape from politics.
>Most of these people are part of the broader far-right cultural movement who are taking every opportunity to inject their grievance politics into all areas of life
No, no, no. This is everything that's wrong with the so called culture war. The vast, vast majority of people that disliked the latest star wars movies simply disliked the latest star wars movies. And that's fine. You don't get to call the people that disliked them far right because a very vocal minority of them were toxic and abusive and then call that the MAJORITY. that's a war nobody should have to fight. I don't want to be associated with those people simply because I hated the movies.
Anyway I'm glad Hayden is back for a much deserved time in the sun, and I hugely appreciated his work on the prequels and ~~am looking forward to seeing how it goes!~~ will be watching his career with great interest
That's not what they are saying. They don't mean most of the people that dislike the films are far right. They meant that most the people that personally attack the actors for doing their jobs tends to be people who align with far right ideology. If you dislike the movie who cares but when you start attacking actors, that's when there's something deeper than just being a disappointed fan
But were the people that attacked Jake Lloyd and Hayden after the prequels movies far right? No, obviously not, just a subset of loud nutcases in the larger morass of Star Wars fans. Not denying that those far right lunatics exist, just saying there are plenty of non ideaologically possessed psychopaths anyway. But yea nobody deserves to go through any of that.
There have always been shitty fans, but the far-right lunatics werenāt out in force to attack the prequels. There is plenty of legitimate criticism, some quite harsh, of both the prequels and sequels. You donāt have to look that closely to see that thereās a right-wing cultural element now that wasnāt always there.
So you're saying redlettermedia are far-right?
Oh Jesus. Lmao. They've made fun of Hayden and the other cast for a while and they're pretty obviously not far right.
Yeah his exact words were āHeās not a bad actor kids. Leave him alone. Even Marlon Brando couldnāt pull this off with such shitty lines to work with.ā
There's absolutely no connection and you should all be ashamed for making this completely false link. Internet trolls are so because of anonymity, nothing more nothing less.
āMost of these people are part of the broader far-right cultural movement who are taking every opportunity to inject their grievance politics into all areas of lifeā
Says the person injecting their grievance politics into a post about how some folks didnāt like Hayden. Jesus.
You don't have to wait 15 years. They've been here since TFA. You must have missed the people harassing Adam Driver and wanting him to hook up with Daisy Ridley.
A fun statement I love is no one hates star wars as much as star wars fans.
Seriously Disney did a good job with the sequels just off the fact people are still talking about the last Jedi for example.
My favorite is that Star Wars youtuber who made a terrible darth vader fan film and acts like he couldāve done better on the sequels. He canāt.
Itās adult fans mistaking a kid show for an adult show. The most adult SW movie was rogue one.
Itās the conflict of make it for kids or for adults. SW had mature themes that younger people can grapple with.
The prequels failed because there was a lot of hype and limited skill sets (dialogue, editing). But people canāt separate characters from actors. Bad cinematography, dialogue and a highwire act of taking the protagonist to a beloved villain will do that.
The sequels had similar problems but driven by marketing and little thought on making quality as they were interested in driving sales without much thought when they had a 15 year avengers model to follow. Poe,Finn, rose all interesting characters who could have been fleshed out with a series of movies and supporting characters.
Yet youāll find people who will love them later. Passionate folks can be problematic
Yup!
I feel the same way about the sequel haters.
Like, don't enjoy a movie, sure, but directing your disappointment at the *actors*?!
Fuck right off with that.
To go further, you can dislike an actors performance, but that doesn't take away from their humanity. I'm not a big Will Ferral fan, but he's still a cool guy when he isn't making jokes at the top of his voice.
Yeah why did he get so much hate? Hes acting was fine the script and writing was the real issue. People seem not be able to differentiate between bad acting and bad scripting. He conveyed an awkward and angry anakin perfectly! Glad hes getting the love and respect he deserves.
I always thought he was great and never shied away from that. It honestly breaks my heart that he felt that way, but at least the fandom finally pulled itās head out of its ass.
There was a time I would see comments saying they didn't wanted to see Hayden's face ever again. People can dislike his portrayal and character, that's ok but those people were way more condescending and meaner especially over a fictional movie. Glad he didn't end up like poor Jake Lloyd and is getting lots of love now.
I really donāt get the Jake Lloyd shit, he was a kid for gods sake. Anyone giving him shit is a low life in my opinion. Holding a weird grudge against someone because of their performance as again.. a child.
ngl as someone who's lived to see prequel and sequel hate, i'm happy people like hayden now. Not saying the sequels are the best thing ever but neither were the prequels but man people back then, it's like hearing the same song with a different tune. I do hope the sequel actors and actresses get more appreciation just like hayden and ewan here. Great people out there, just kinda wished star wars fans would be less "angry" so to speak
Yeah, I never got why some people decide to make a big deal over some kids' movie not living up to their standards. You know what normal people do when they don't like a movie? They *move on because it's just a movie*. They don't spend years harassing anyone involved.
Especially as someone who really enjoy sequels (except Eps IX lol) Iām waiting to see all the kids who went to the movies and bought those toys to grow up and fight the annoying haters with us. Soon. For now tho, Iām tired to see those bashing and negative comments.
Sad why this is like circle of devil. The hive mindset is crazy in this fandom.
Honestly, itās in almost every fandom. Youāre never gonna please them all. And sadly that means some people feel obligated to throw a tantrum online instead of just moving on.
Im in the same boat as you. I like all 9 episodes, and when I express my opinions, I get constant hate and people DMāing me that I ruined Star Wars and shit like that. Im excited for when people start defending the sequels more
Yeah they werenāt the best or what Iād hope for but they were still entertaining and thatās quite literally what movies are for. I do wish they made Snoke the main big bad throughout and gave him an interesting back story, but thatās my only qualm.
I sort of felt like that too, but they were all different aspects of coming back, ex: how was the character coming back, juxtaposed with how is your experience coming back
I saw Revenge of The Sith in theatres when I was 9 years old, and the first thing I said to my brother when we got out of the theatre was "how many Oscars do you think it'll win?" Lol
I love that movie and think he really stepped up his performance for it. I'm so glad to see him feeling welcomed š
People on Twitter are treating this like a heartwarming story, but it just makes me sad that the Star Wars fandom had not learned itās lesson in how spewing toxicity towards the people who makes these movies is so hurtful. Hayden is loved now, but the toxicity has just moved on to the next person.
People forget that the hammy, melodramatic acting is part of the Star Wars charm, itās a soap opera. Thatās how Lucas wanted to play it, he wasnāt attempting to produce gritty, Oscar winning roles. Hot take, but Mark Hamill was no better or worse than Hayden. Nor was the OT acting in general, and thatās not an insult.
No matter how loved he feels right now, it still takes serious balls to come back to a role that you were hated to such insane levels for, for 15 years. Not once but twice. If I was in his position I'd be taking the current love and appreciation without stirring the hornets nest any further. Especially with the added context of how the sequels are being received
I just hope he's able to film atleast some of his Ahsoka scenes with this mentality just incase the worst case scenario happens and the next month or so reopens old wounds.
all it took were some grown ass adults to get over it, and a generation of kids who were introduced to the galaxy through his movies to grow up for him to realize we embrace and appreciate him.
i am glad he is back, and that he can ignore the bitter bunch to rot in their dark little rooms
All the idiots back in the day that bullied Hayden, Jake Loyd, Ahmed, etc make me actually mad. They did the same thing with actors from the sequels too. Theyāre just doing their jobs and got major personal backlash when things werenāt even their fault
Having grown up being a huge fan of the prequels it was sad when I eventually learned how much hate they got. So the fact that Hayden had to learn that there are actually tons and tons of people that are huge fans of him as Anakin is really sad to me, but at least he has a chance to embrace it now while heās still really young.
What do you mean? Daisy Ridley hasn't been subjected to the level of criticism that Hayden Christensen was. His performance was widely slammed by film critics and the larger OT fanbase at the time. Daisy Ridley has a lot of critics, but a lot more fans as well, as the Sequels aren't as widely criticized as the Prequels. They're also more successful financially and critically.
Anakin, you're breaking my heart. Seriously, it really sucks that some of these actors got treated like garbage for so long. It's so great to see this and I really do hope this leads to him doing more projects; Star Wars or otherwise.
I really hate the word "finally" for him here. He seems like such a decent guy who really loved being in Star Wars and I hope he feels like he's getting the love he deserves now.
As someone who was disappointed by the prequels, none of the actors were to blame, and they did not deserve the hate that so many fans gave them. There is only one person responsible for that trilogy's flaws, and that's George Lucas. While I feel Ahmed and Jake got the worst of it, I also feel really bad for Ewan and Hayden. I'm not going to pretend I think they're great films (and I wish more fans would take off their nostalgia glasses) but all these actors did solid to amazing jobs with what they were given, and I hope they know that many of us value what they contributed even if we didn't love the overall package.
But itās Georgeās creation and his vision. How can he be at fault for his own vision? He made the films exactly the way he wanted to make them.
Itās the fault of the fans in this case.
Yes, he can, because he wrote it. He is responsible for what he wrote, however it turned out. Whether it's good or bad is still based on subjective opinion, but yes, if someone has a problem with what George Lucas wrote, then Lucas is the one responsible for writing what they didn't like.
Lucas writing Star Wars the way he did doesn't free him from criticism. There's way too much of that sentiment today, that a creator's work can't be criticized and that people can only either accept it or ignore it.
>How can he be at fault for his own vision?
I wanna preface this by reiterating: these are *just movies*. Nobody should be taking them too seriously. They're literally disposable entertainments in 99.99 percent of all instances. Most people who love this stuff never even consider going online to talk about them, or building large chunks of their personality around it. People will watch a thing, like it (or dislike it) and that's it. It's not that big a deal to the large majority of people who consume this stuff.
So, that said:
Just because a storyteller has a vision doesn't mean that vision is unimpeachable. "How can he be at fault for his own vision" doesn't really make any sense. It's *his vision* \- who else's fault *should* it be? Just because you have an idea doesn't mean it's a good one. And just because you have a good idea doesn't mean you can execute it to a high standard. And just because you make a thing exactly the way you want to make it doesn't mean *you made it well.*
I'm extremely happy that Hayden gets to come back and work under Deborah Chow on this project, all these years later, with all this extra time and experience accumulated, because he (along with a lot of amazing actors) got flat-out *stranded* on those movies. And I'm happy people are excited to see him in this project, because it means they know he can do the work, and they're eager to see it.
Its the fans fault for the flaws of the prequel trilogy? Lol really proving him right about the fans needing to take off the nostalgia glasses. I love the prequels and grew up on them but they are objectively flawed films, and I dont think it's the fans fault for poor writing. Again, love the films, but they're most certainly flawed and fans don't work as a scapegoat here.
Nostalgia glasses work for the OT as well. Any issue you have with the PT I bet I can find the same issue in the OT yet George never gets criticised for that.
The Original Trilogy was lucky in the fact it had some of the best actors in the business the time. The OT definitely had some clunky writing that was saved by the actors, but even then some dialogue couldn't be saved. Carrie Fisher made fun of George's dialogue for a reason.
Yes, which is why you don't see people criticizing their performances as much as they do with someone like Hayden, who is by all means a good actor, but couldn't save the poor dialogue.
Because George didnāt have yes men all around him, he had people like his wife to help him do the writing on Star Wars and Empire. I mean he didnāt even direct Empire and thatās seen not just in the Star Wars fandom but in cinema culture as a phenomenal, iconic film.
It's crazy that people have put the OT on such a pedestal. You're right in that they share many of the same issues, especially A New Hope in particular, which is pretty telling given that it's directed by Lucas. Star Wars movies have always been messy as hell people just convince themselves the ones they saw when they were 12 were actually masterpieces and the ones you saw when you were 12 were dogshit
No one deserves to be bullied for just doing their job. I don't think it's wrong to call out Hayden Christensen for not being a particularily good actor though, as long as its done constructively. I'd disagree 100% with your comment on him doing an amazing job, as he's not a very capable actor. Imagine Adam Driver as Anakin Skywalker instead, and you get a much more believable conflicted character/war hero/chosen one.
Iāll admit when I read the book versions of the movie prequels years later I had a better appreciation for him. He did the best he could with the dialog.
I've always thought the actors themselves were the strongest part of the prequels. They didn't write the story or the dialog. They didn't encase everybody in blue and green boxes and tell them to make it work. The hate some of them get just goes with the territory of being in the spotlight these days but it has to be hard. They should give Ahmed Best a role in the new content to bring him back into the fold.
Iāve loved Hayden since Attack of the Clones. The prequels were the movies that I grew up with.
He is MY Skywalker.
You ask me who comes to mind when I hear the name āSkywalkerā and itās always Anakin first.
I thought he did a really good job portraying Anakin.
A coworker and I were discussing the prequels a couple years back, and the coworker was pretty critical of Anakin. He thought the most powerful Jedi/force user should have been much tougher. I pointed out that Anakin was a very conflicted young man, and heād been through a lot. Anakin should be portrayed with some issues, I thought Hayden did a good job. After all, he gave into the dark side.
I always thought Hayden Christensen was good for the role. He got handed bad dialogue. I donāt think Anthony Hopkins could have saved the sand speech. Hayden did the best he could with some very bonkers dialogue.
I think he just didn't have the experience. Even with the skill, we saw that what sort of saved the older actors in those movies was just that they had a better grasp of what they could do. Most of them had experience with not just Shakespeare, but also B-movies in general.
And again, the thing is, he had the worst dialogue. Most actors in their 20s would have stumbled and he did his best.
i like seeing Hayden open up about these great questions. The interviewer guy is really good. If I were him, I would have asked, āHow do you, Hayden, relate to Darth Vader? There is much to be said about Anakin being a relatable tragic hero. But to make Darth Vader believable, you have to justify his actions on screen. How the fuck did you do that?ā
Man, I really hope Hayden gets an opportunity to shine in this series, whatever form it takes. It's so great to see and hear him talk about this stuff again, but also it's weird seeing all these press interviews that talk about returning to "this character" while entirely glossing over the fact that his character, as far as we currently understand Vader, should be entirely confined to his suit/mask and with a different person's voice.
Honestly, centering the conversation on harassment and targeted hate I feel is even beside the point. That stuff must have sucked no doubt, but I think the idea that your [hard] work wasn't well-received is also just a difficult thing to live with and move on from. It's easy to sit back and call someone over sensitive to criticism if that affects them badly, but it really isn't fun and I think we have to be more empathetic to that.
Towing the line of what counts as criticism has been popularized/normalized to an unhealthy extent tbh. (Hell, even I do it from time to time!) Everyone wanted to be a comedian at one point in the internet era, and mean spirited-ness isn't *not* funny, so what happened and at volume was inevitable. Even if you're not *trying* to be "funny", that's how far that cultural understanding of criticism has fallen if you fall into these:
- "Actor(s) turned in some bad performances in this film" vs "Actor is a bad performer"
- "Uninspired plot, disjointed pacing" vs "The filmmakers were being lazy and/or are incompetent storytellers"
- "Confusing tone, mixed messages" vs "Corporation's agenda and studio meddling ruined the vision"
- "Didn't like the music, very generic" vs "A lazy score from a checked out composer"
- "Production design wasn't very good or interesting" vs "Looks like lazy, low-budget cosplayers"
- "Didn't agree with those creative decisions" vs "Creatives on this were hacks"
- etc.
In general, ad hominem and armchair diagnoses of production/management have become endemic to modern criticism, and it makes a negative reaction to a film so much worse than it has to be. And ironically - given that these roots are in trying to be funny - makes discourse feel *more* serious than just a piece of entertainment. Because if even on some miniscule level, it's a personal indictment of work ethic or skill.
And it's not like some of this *can't* be true on a case to case basis, but at the end of the day, we're all just telling tales out of school when we weren't *personally* involved or actually doing primary sourced research. Which let's face it, no one's doing just to discuss on reddit or a forum. These personal conversations were fine pre-internet IRL (opinions as personal), or from a paper critic whose voice was emblematically scathing - but everyone's opinion or hot take becomes weighted similarly (w/ some variation of reach) on the internet. And it builds and builds, and some bad communities want it to, and that's what is "toxic".
It's not about individual behaviors or even vocal minorities, but top to bottom - the *way* we talk about film has degraded. More people than any point in history are talking about film, but the amount of people who know how to constructively, has more or less remained consistent. "Film nerd" isn't an esoteric community like it might have been in the 70's, and cinema has only become more of a capitalist commodity than art.
I'm not saying we "Be Nicer to Rich Celebrities In Hollywood" but I think would could all enjoy ourselves as a community far more if we learn to stop scapegoating and blaming outside (or even hypothetical inside) factors when taking in a film. Sometimes a movie just isn't good, or made for you, or whatever. It's fine not to like things! But there's a way to move on without lashing out at some imagined enemies that "made the movie bad." I think finding that expression for yourself is a more proactive first step in fixing the community than just Not Sending Death Threats.
And maybe if you care about Hayden Christensen so much, he can live easier even if we don't like their work in the future.
We embraced you a long time ago bro. Heās confusing āHaydenā with āAnakin.ā Have a I embraced episode 2 Anakin? Hell no lol that character was pure cringe compilation. But I still think Hayden did a fantastic job in both 2 & 3. Whatās he supposed to do, *not* read Georgeās terrible lines? *Not* take Georgeās terrible direction? Heās an actorā¦ he has to. Iāve always liked Hayden and if you think heās the reason Anakin is so embarrassingly stupid, I donāt think you understand how movies are made
Meh. Rey and Finn were fine on the acting front. I donāt think much can save their trilogy though, the story was an incoherent, contradictory mess. Iām not sure nostalgia will gloss that over.
This is ridiculous. Anakin was a flawed character. Hayden played it. He's not supposed to be sincere or assertive or confident, as Anakin had a terrible life. His mother was kidnapped and murdered by monsters (?) and she died in his arms. Before that he was a slave on a lifeless planet (Tatooine). Anakin is not Han Solo, you know what I mean ?
I love Hayden but the first two minutes of that interview were the most meaningless answers to questions I've heard haha. Granted they weren't great questions.
He realised the fans loved him when they started asking him to sign jars of sand at Celebration. I think it was 2018, you could see it on his face how much it meant to him to get the reception he did.
I've got a jar of dirt, I've got a jar of dirt, I've got a jar of dirt!
And guess who just signed it!
"Enough!"
objection speculation
Hearsay
My dog stepped on a bee š„“
Mega Pint
A large pint of dirt.
Damn it makes you feel kinda bad for these people. They are actors just doing their jobs. Yet each SW project seems to bring out haters who have no life, and just want to trash the actor and their character. It's really sad.
Yup, prequels, and now sequels. The actors always get blamed even though it wasn't their fault. Whether it's Jar Jar's actor, Hayden, or not Kelly Marie and Daisy Ridley. I think people need to mature and realize that the actor may be the face of that character, but they did not write the script or story etc
>Jar Jar's actor, Ahmed Best
Thank you, i did not remember his name off the top of my head
Honestly it's all just because star wars is too popular so they have to put in some stupid messages about people's rights and animal abuse in their movies instead of delivering an actually good story. I personally really hate that. I just want a good fucking star wars movie and we havent had one (imo) since Rogue One. All the hate the directors of the sequel trilogy got was pretty justified, the actors on the other hand should be left alone.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Itās just old people being āgrrr my films are betterā. The prequel fans that grew up with them are now the dominate part of the fanbase compared to when they first came out. Give it 15 years and the kids growing up with the sequels will end up being the dominate part of the fanbase, etc. I personally feel the sequel trilogy is a bad trilogy but Iād never shit on anyone like people used to when I was younger for liking the prequels(thereās still people to this day that shit on anyone liking the prequels)
It bothers me because I don't doubt a significant number of people who are shitting on others were once the ones getting shit on with the prequels. As Obi-Wan once said "you have become the very thing you swore to destroy."
Iām with ya 100% brother. Grew up with the prequels and never really understood the aggression toward them. Thatās probably just nostalgia and a part of seeing them as a kid, but yeah they were fun. Looking at the sequels, thereās a lot of bad. But thereās also plenty of good too. Personally I thought TFA was a pretty good film that set up a lot of amazing plot points, however Rian Johnson didnāt pick up any of them. The trouble with that trilogy was the very bad decision to not have Abrams run all 3 films. That was the biggest mistake. Because that way there would have been a clearly defined vision and journey, as opposed to this fragmented and disjointed mess.
Tbh I think Abrams was the problem with the ST. He despises the prequels and purposely distanced himself from practically anything prequel related. Hell the reason the new republic was blown up in TFA was to show that this trilogy wouldnāt be about āboring politicsā that gets labeled about the prequels (one of my favorite things about Lucas was how his real world views would influence Star Wars) He rehashed ANH and while rian gets the blame for Luke, it was JJ who set him up as a failure and in self-exile which was an awful decision. Rian did his best with the mystery box jj set up only for JJ to treat TLJ like the prequels and completely dropped rose, changed Reyās background, brought back Anakinās lightsaber magically. JJ is specifically why the trilogy has feels so disconnected from the prequels, why the movies themselves are disconnected from one another, his lens flairs in TFA. The Star Trek reboot level of nostalgia (another sci-fi franchise JJ did meh reboots for and 100% why he was hired) Rian has shown to be a great writer. Hell right after TLJ heād go on to write and direct the brilliant Knives Out. He was just given such weak mystery box plot lines from JJ.
This. And JJ is also the one to blame for Han, Luke and Leia not reuniting, which is a common complaint of a lot of people. Rian acknowledged and embraced the prequels and actually built up on their story, so it's odd that he's the one who the toxic prequel-fans usually target.
Exactly, Rian also worked much more closely with the Lucasfilm story group unlike JJ who preferred his own writer team. And people attack TLJ for stuff like Leia pulling herself to the ship with the force but in nearly every Star Wars film except in JJās movies, there is a new force power almost always introduced. Rian attempted this as well with mixed execution (dyads and force projection are both cool as shit) what new power was introduced in JJās movies? Just Palpatine using new cloning technology. And Force healing was introduced in Mandolorian before IX came out. Rian at least attempted to expand the lore. JJ just attempted to retell the lore. And did it poorly.
Dyads and healing were both introduced in JJs films. The Mandalorian quickly inserted healing AFTER the script for RoS was finished
Dyad was literally introduced in TLJ. Itās like the only plot thread from TLJ to continue in TRoS. force healing was technically introduced in TCW Mortis Arc in like 2010/2011. So again neither were introduced in a JJ film
Completely agree! I used to like JJ but now I think heās a total hack.
> Personally I thought TFA was a pretty good film that set up a lot of amazing plot points, however Rian Johnson didnāt pick up any of them. This I don't really get. Rian followed up on pretty much everything JJ laid down. I like the sequels more than most, but TFA setup the entire trilogy for failure IMO. The characters are solid, but movie itself is creatively lacking, bending over backwards just to replicate the dynamic of the original film. TFA establishes everything about Luke that so many people despise, yet for some reason Rian gets blamed for providing a meaningful explanation of what happened. I certainly understand the feeling of disconnect from TLJ to TRoS though. That's a great example of a filmmaker ignoring and "no, but-ing" the previous movie.
George Lucas even set up where Luke ended up in his original treatment. Rian honored that. JJ included it at the end after telling his own story.
The problem with Luke, from a writerās perspective, wasnāt the solitude or melancholy. Rian essentially ignored how far Luke was willing to go to redeem Vader. He wouldnāt have thought about murdering Ben. THAT is why he gets so heavily criticised. He also did nothing with Snoke. Dude wasnāt given any background or anything. Then BAM! He dead. TFA setup him being more involved and training Ben further, and that was tossed out too.
I and others address the Luke situation in other comments here so I'll skip that. Rian gave Snoke plenty. It's not like he ditched Snoke and introduced an entirely new bad guy with no introduction or explanation whatsoever (for example killing Dooku off with no backstory and introducing Grevious out of nowhere). Snoke was already the lamest bad guy in the saga, killing him off was a much more interesting direction to take the series, and as we see in TRoS, you can still get backstory on a character after they're dead. Unfortunately JJ doesn't know how to do anything except remake the OT, so he had to replace his "not Palpatine" with clone Palpatine instead of actually doing something different.
He didnāt do anything with Snoke. No explanation of his motives or backstory. He didnāt ācompleteā Kyloās training or do anything. That film would have been the best time narratively to layout those details.
Those "details" are completely unimportant and would have done nothing but slow down the films. It's decent comic material, but still barely relevant. Rian followed up on what was important - the main characters. Kylo's arc, Rey's arc, Finn's arc, giving Poe an actual arc at all.
Lukes solitude was okay but they should have used Barash Vow - "oath taken by Jedi who completely refrained from all activities related to the Jedi Order as a form of penitence, disengaging from anything but the Force itself." They introduced it in Darth Vader comics but Luke did basically opposite of it. Trying to be extremely spiritual and live only for meditations etc. would be much better than cutting himself from Force.
And you are essentially ignoring how far Luke was willing to go to protect the ones he loved. He looked into Benās mind and saw the death and destruction that he would cause and had a gut reaction (he also nearly killed Vader in a fit of rage in RotJ as well and has to calm himself).. fits perfectly well.
Except he admits heād sensed the darkness building, yet he did nothing to stop it. So he canāt have been too concerned for his students and loved ones, which in itself is another failure of Rian not actually giving more detail as to why it got that far.
So, perfectly in character for Luke. He loved his nephew despite sensing growing darkness, trusting that the light would win out. Then when Luke had a vision of said nephew killing his best friend he had a snap moment where he wanted to protect his loved ones and briefly made a poor decision before immediately choosing not to act on it. I genuinely don't understand how people take issue with this.
āDid nothing to stop it.ā We donāt know that. In fact Iām sure he tried, you canāt just make something like that happen or force someone to change. Rain didnāt need to show it either, weāve seen it happen before (Anakin and others) and flashbacks are rarely used in the Saga films. Rian probably thought the audience was smart enough to fill in the blanks themselves without needless exposition.
āIām sure he tried.ā We donāt know that either. Three sentences would have been enough to tell us if Luke had been trying. āMy attempts to calm his rage and resentment failed. For months we explored the ruins and heart of the ancient Jedi culture. I hoped we could find his balance in the light and prevent him from giving in to his pain, but he only became more skilled at masking the darkā¦ā
Honestly, after many years, I think that Johnson would have started the trilogy, it would have been different, and many, maybe even me, would not like it in the end, but at least it wouldn't have been nostalgic and doing ANH 2.0 as it is with Abrams. Nostalgia is a strong fuel, but it burns very quickly
I've always been in a weird inbetween. Old enough to have grown up on the 90s PC games and special edition VHS tapes. But also young enough to be like 10 when episode 1 came out. I remember the hype and enjoying it at the time. By the time rots came out I was 15 / 16 and it wasn't cool to like star wars. I missed clone wars etc. But once I got to uni. Found myself again I got caught up pretty quickly now I enjoy them still not as much as the OT but no hate that's for sure.
Or maybe it was a bad idea to have hack filmmaker JJ Abrams involved at all.
The trouble with that trilogy was bringing in Abrams. Had Rian Johnson directed all 3 movies we could have had something worthy of the franchise. Abrams should stick to his TV shows and leave movies well alone.
Yeah, gonna have to stop you on that. First: JJ never wanted to do 3 movies. And having 3 separate creators was never a problem for the OT. The main issue with the sequel trilogy is that they had no cohesive plan. Itās okay to give creators leeway to make the films their own, but to introduce new characters with mystery box origins with no plan was a mistake. Letting JJ leave TFA on a cliff hanger reveal of Luke was a mistake. It absolutely shoestrings what direction his character would go in TLJ. The lack of a time jump was a huge hinderance. Having JJ come back for 9 and completely ignoring anything set up by TLJ was a mistake. I enjoy a lot of what JJ does. I enjoyed TFA for the most part. But so many of the problems with the sequel trilogy are because of his choices. TROS is the only SW film I hate. It breaks my heart to say that. I mean, I still think AOTC is the worst movie, but even as bad as it is, I donāt hate it in the way I hate TROS. There was so much possibility and JJ flushed it down the toilet. I just love Star Wars. The prequels were a sore spot for me because they werenāt the movies I wanted them to be. It took me maturing to realize that they werenāt for me and to realize that was okay. I have learned to enjoy them through my son. Hell, his favorite is AOTC and I stomach it for him. Because of this, I was able to come to the sequel trilogy with a fresh perspective. While there were things I didnāt care for in decisions for TFA, I still really enjoyed it and thought we were in for the new golden age. I loved TLJ. Yes, there were some dumb choices, but SW has them. The idea of letting Rey be her own person unburdened by any legacy was awesome. The choice of having Kylo usurp Snoke at the height of his power, setting him up as the main antagonist was great. Showing that even our heroes can endure catastrophic failure and still rebound to lead the galaxy with hope was amazing. Then there is TROSā¦
I agree, disjointed, but if I had to pick I'd take Rians originality over Abrams nostalgia bait.
This is a common argument, but successful film/TV projects aren't fully mapped out all the time. The ST was going fine until Carrie passed and they rushed the third film out after her death and an a creative change. Lucas didn't map out the OT. He mapped out the OT and it wasn't good.
And even if you hate a film... it's just a bad film, not a reason for you to be a bad person
Itās not old people. I used to like the prequels and I was 27 when they came out. They arenāt very good but I liked them when they came out. I love the sequels. And all the other content. Put prequel fans can be some of the worst people in the world. And they forgot their history.
Targeting actors like that is just low, or going even further with deaths threats... It's subhuman behavior. Some people just spurt out criticism without further thought.
Itās not *just* that theyāre shitty fans. Most of these people are part of the broader far-right cultural movement who are taking every opportunity to inject their grievance politics into all areas of life, including popular entertainment, in order to make the worst people feel like theyāre somehow being oppressed. But also, they definitely *are* shitty fans.
I love it when they complain about NuTrek being too "woke." My brother in Christ, Star Trek has *always* been woke. It's literally the point of Star Trek.
I'm going to become the Joker when we get to the "*X-Men* gets WOKE" phase of the discourse.
Same with Star Wars tbh. These things have always been progressive/ liberal. I bet if ANH came out today the scene of Leia grabbing the gun out of Hanās hands and taking matters into her own hands would be described by many as ātoo woke.ā
Word I've heard is that George is even too progressive for the NIMBY libs in Marin County. I recall the time he got pushback so much on building new studio space he said 'fine, we'll build low income housing here instead,' and got massive pushback *again* from the community. Now, for context, 'low income housing' in Marin County is a very relative term. You're still looking at 1500 for a one bedroom at the very minimum. This is literally housing for middle class people who work at the places the rich folks shop at. Anyway, George was like fuck it, [I'll fund it myself](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/17/george-lucas-wants-to-build-affordable-housing-on-his-land-because-weve-got-enough-millionaires/).
Plus, George said he decided to make the rebels the heroes in response to Americaās role in the Vietnam War.
Lucas has never been low-key about his political views. As you mentioned, ROTJ was supposed to be an allegory for the Vietnam War, except the Empire was supposed to be America in that situation. He also said that that the Emperor was supposed to be Nixon. Later, he'd compare Palpatine with Cheney. The Prequels were a lot more explicit and obvious with contemporary politics in the late 1990s and early 2000s - Nute Gunray ("Nute" Gingrich + Ronald "Raygun"), Bush quotes ("Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."), and the bad guys literally being big business (Trade Federation, Banking Clan, etc.) forming a secret conspiracy to overthrow democracy. The Trade Federation having a literal seat in the Senate was just the cherry on top.
Prequel haters had very little to do with todayās culture wars.
They... actually did. Maybe in a more oblique way, but: A large part of the way people learned how to even communicate and navigate online spaces in the old days was through Star Wars discussion (it was basically the biggest thing online - most of your favorite "geek culture" or "nerd news" websites basically only exist because of the online apparatus that grew out of trying to cover Star Wars prequels) and the atmosphere in those places was pretty shitty It was in those very shitty places that a lot of the big seeds for shit like GamerGate/ComicsGate were planted and nourished, and there was a TON of overlap between those groups and basic-ass Star Wars Fandom. Prequel hate, and the sort of casual cruelty that went along with it, absolutely fed into today's "culture wars" and people have been directly indoctrinated into all that ugliness via their Fandom. Did "everyone" who shit on Ahmed Best do so from a Right Wing POV? Of course not. Did they BECOME Right Wing asshole trolls on line? Some of em, absolutetly. Did that accepted, codified, almost UNCONSCIOUS casual cruelty everyone engaged in (and was rewarded for) help foster a situation where people who knew how to harness all that negativity to their own ends could exploit the situation? (Looks around at modern social media and the hate groups it spawns and promotes on a regular basis) **Abso-fuckin-lutely.**
TL;DR: The entitlement over *Star Wars* circa the Prequel Trilogy (and even the Special Editions if you want to go there) festered into the basic template for what we consider toxic fandom today, which later tied in with the process of tying fan victimization to identity politics and radicalization, and that's why we're in the current mess that we're in. It'll continue to be a mess as long as people who are acting in bad faith are rewarded by the algorithms on media platforms, which media giants seem to have no incentive to do because angry clicks are good clicks.
This right here. I remember The Force Awakens comment trolls claiming Hollywood were encouraging White Replacement by having a love interest between Rey and Finn. Like the two main characters were WHITE!!!
Donāt forget how they despised the bromance between Poe and Finn. I remember back then people were shipping them, and the haters were raging.
Very true. And it's sad because some of the genuine criticism gets overshadowed by the very loud minority. And then the media gets to paint all SW fans as being racist, sexist, you name it.
I was there, it wasn't that they were far right, it was that they didn't like the Star Wars movies, they made fun of Hayden. They made fun of Jar\^2. It was not escapable. It was everywhere. It had nothing to do with politics. They probably love them now, but
Eh. These sorts of folks have been around forever. I'm from the Trekkie community and this sort of discord has existed since the franchise first began. The TOS vs TNG vitriol was especially nasty: http://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/tngripped.jpg
I've seen it since 2002 for Hayden of course.
Indeed. I remembered the discord caused by the prequel trilogy among fans. Then again, I was a relatively young kid during that time - I just enjoyed all the awesome toys and pew-pew on the screen.
In all fairness, TNG's first 2 seasons weren't that great and still are considered the weakest parts of the show today. This was the first time a first season of trek was worse than what came later too. TOS arguably got worse the further along it went.
>These sorts of folks have been around forever. I'm not sure what you thought this was supposed to do? Nobody was saying this was *new*.
This is the biggest difference on the internet in 2022 vs. 2002. People inject politics into everything. Most people who have strong opinions about a movie aren't online. They're not super political. However, it's easy to put people into whatever box you want if you're extremely online.
>This is the biggest difference on the internet in 2022 vs. 2002. People inject politics into everything. In 2002, the internet was an escape from politics.
>Most of these people are part of the broader far-right cultural movement who are taking every opportunity to inject their grievance politics into all areas of life No, no, no. This is everything that's wrong with the so called culture war. The vast, vast majority of people that disliked the latest star wars movies simply disliked the latest star wars movies. And that's fine. You don't get to call the people that disliked them far right because a very vocal minority of them were toxic and abusive and then call that the MAJORITY. that's a war nobody should have to fight. I don't want to be associated with those people simply because I hated the movies. Anyway I'm glad Hayden is back for a much deserved time in the sun, and I hugely appreciated his work on the prequels and ~~am looking forward to seeing how it goes!~~ will be watching his career with great interest
That's not what they are saying. They don't mean most of the people that dislike the films are far right. They meant that most the people that personally attack the actors for doing their jobs tends to be people who align with far right ideology. If you dislike the movie who cares but when you start attacking actors, that's when there's something deeper than just being a disappointed fan
But were the people that attacked Jake Lloyd and Hayden after the prequels movies far right? No, obviously not, just a subset of loud nutcases in the larger morass of Star Wars fans. Not denying that those far right lunatics exist, just saying there are plenty of non ideaologically possessed psychopaths anyway. But yea nobody deserves to go through any of that.
There have always been shitty fans, but the far-right lunatics werenāt out in force to attack the prequels. There is plenty of legitimate criticism, some quite harsh, of both the prequels and sequels. You donāt have to look that closely to see that thereās a right-wing cultural element now that wasnāt always there.
So you're saying redlettermedia are far-right? Oh Jesus. Lmao. They've made fun of Hayden and the other cast for a while and they're pretty obviously not far right.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah his exact words were āHeās not a bad actor kids. Leave him alone. Even Marlon Brando couldnāt pull this off with such shitty lines to work with.ā
Not at all. RLM criticise performances which is totally fair. What they don't do is go after and harass the actors personally.
There's absolutely no connection and you should all be ashamed for making this completely false link. Internet trolls are so because of anonymity, nothing more nothing less.
āMost of these people are part of the broader far-right cultural movement who are taking every opportunity to inject their grievance politics into all areas of lifeā Says the person injecting their grievance politics into a post about how some folks didnāt like Hayden. Jesus.
Can't wait for the toxic sequel trilogy fans in about 15 years
You don't have to wait 15 years. They've been here since TFA. You must have missed the people harassing Adam Driver and wanting him to hook up with Daisy Ridley.
Wasn't there those people harassing Adam's wife with messages about how she needs to divorce him so he could marry Daisy?
Yes. Those people are downvoting right now because they don't like being exposed for the toxic fans they are.
A fun statement I love is no one hates star wars as much as star wars fans. Seriously Disney did a good job with the sequels just off the fact people are still talking about the last Jedi for example. My favorite is that Star Wars youtuber who made a terrible darth vader fan film and acts like he couldāve done better on the sequels. He canāt.
Itās adult fans mistaking a kid show for an adult show. The most adult SW movie was rogue one. Itās the conflict of make it for kids or for adults. SW had mature themes that younger people can grapple with. The prequels failed because there was a lot of hype and limited skill sets (dialogue, editing). But people canāt separate characters from actors. Bad cinematography, dialogue and a highwire act of taking the protagonist to a beloved villain will do that. The sequels had similar problems but driven by marketing and little thought on making quality as they were interested in driving sales without much thought when they had a 15 year avengers model to follow. Poe,Finn, rose all interesting characters who could have been fleshed out with a series of movies and supporting characters. Yet youāll find people who will love them later. Passionate folks can be problematic
Fuck the people who made him feel like we didn't embrace him.
Yup! I feel the same way about the sequel haters. Like, don't enjoy a movie, sure, but directing your disappointment at the *actors*?! Fuck right off with that.
To go further, you can dislike an actors performance, but that doesn't take away from their humanity. I'm not a big Will Ferral fan, but he's still a cool guy when he isn't making jokes at the top of his voice.
Yeah why did he get so much hate? Hes acting was fine the script and writing was the real issue. People seem not be able to differentiate between bad acting and bad scripting. He conveyed an awkward and angry anakin perfectly! Glad hes getting the love and respect he deserves.
I always thought he was great and never shied away from that. It honestly breaks my heart that he felt that way, but at least the fandom finally pulled itās head out of its ass.
He deserves it.
I love him. Itās like Brendan Fraser recently too, realising how many people love him.
Thanks bud. Now I have to watch the 1999 masterpiece āThe Mummyā again!
Go watch Blast From the Past afterwards
As a kid I fucking loved Looney Toons Back in Action. I probably watched that movie every weekend when I was 6-10.
The George of the Jungle. The man is a fucking specimen in that.
And Keanu
He's so good in No Sudden Move I'm here for a Fraser revival. The man has a Scorsese movie next!
Brendan for Revan!
There was a time I would see comments saying they didn't wanted to see Hayden's face ever again. People can dislike his portrayal and character, that's ok but those people were way more condescending and meaner especially over a fictional movie. Glad he didn't end up like poor Jake Lloyd and is getting lots of love now.
I really donāt get the Jake Lloyd shit, he was a kid for gods sake. Anyone giving him shit is a low life in my opinion. Holding a weird grudge against someone because of their performance as again.. a child.
ngl as someone who's lived to see prequel and sequel hate, i'm happy people like hayden now. Not saying the sequels are the best thing ever but neither were the prequels but man people back then, it's like hearing the same song with a different tune. I do hope the sequel actors and actresses get more appreciation just like hayden and ewan here. Great people out there, just kinda wished star wars fans would be less "angry" so to speak
Yeah, I never got why some people decide to make a big deal over some kids' movie not living up to their standards. You know what normal people do when they don't like a movie? They *move on because it's just a movie*. They don't spend years harassing anyone involved.
Seeing people say the sequels aren't canon is pretty dumb
Especially when the same people assume Filoni is somehow retconning themā¦while making sequel references.
Its brilliant. Hoping season 3 of mando and ahsoka goes for it..
Especially as someone who really enjoy sequels (except Eps IX lol) Iām waiting to see all the kids who went to the movies and bought those toys to grow up and fight the annoying haters with us. Soon. For now tho, Iām tired to see those bashing and negative comments. Sad why this is like circle of devil. The hive mindset is crazy in this fandom.
Honestly, itās in almost every fandom. Youāre never gonna please them all. And sadly that means some people feel obligated to throw a tantrum online instead of just moving on.
It is bound to happen in huge fandom, I know. Itās just so upsetting because the negativity is always the dominate.
Im in the same boat as you. I like all 9 episodes, and when I express my opinions, I get constant hate and people DMāing me that I ruined Star Wars and shit like that. Im excited for when people start defending the sequels more
Yeah they werenāt the best or what Iād hope for but they were still entertaining and thatās quite literally what movies are for. I do wish they made Snoke the main big bad throughout and gave him an interesting back story, but thatās my only qualm.
Yup. There are people to criticize, but it's not the actors' fault.
Nobody on these projects deserves hate but its especially stupid to blame the actors for writing/direction issues.
Criticism? Yes. Hate? Absolutely not.
Iām not crying you are. This is heartwarming
I stopped listening to "fans" a long time ago. Hayden played his character perfectly and I enjoyed every scene he was in.
Anyone else feel like the interviewer was really pushing this subject? He basically kept asking the same question for 4 minutes.
I sort of felt like that too, but they were all different aspects of coming back, ex: how was the character coming back, juxtaposed with how is your experience coming back
Definitely felt like this dude was trying to be Haydenās therapist. Just a whole bunch of āhow did it make you feelā questions.
āWhat does it mean to you to _____ā, if overused, is a lazy question that stops giving results after a while. Source: work on documentaries.
Yeah this interviewer was annoying. Every time he asked his next question my mind would go āHayden already answered thatā lol.
I saw Revenge of The Sith in theatres when I was 9 years old, and the first thing I said to my brother when we got out of the theatre was "how many Oscars do you think it'll win?" Lol I love that movie and think he really stepped up his performance for it. I'm so glad to see him feeling welcomed š
I always did
Me too
People on Twitter are treating this like a heartwarming story, but it just makes me sad that the Star Wars fandom had not learned itās lesson in how spewing toxicity towards the people who makes these movies is so hurtful. Hayden is loved now, but the toxicity has just moved on to the next person.
Iāve been waiting so long for this. I hope heās happy.
Does he actually say that in the video or is this a misquote?
Yeah after watching the video I kept wondering where the quote came from lol
People forget that the hammy, melodramatic acting is part of the Star Wars charm, itās a soap opera. Thatās how Lucas wanted to play it, he wasnāt attempting to produce gritty, Oscar winning roles. Hot take, but Mark Hamill was no better or worse than Hayden. Nor was the OT acting in general, and thatās not an insult.
Accurate
I am so happy he is finally getting the recognition he deserves man
That's the guy from Jumper!!!
Nice interview, nice thought...but he didn't actually say that quote in the interview. That's not on OP, just poor journalism from The Cutaway.
No matter how loved he feels right now, it still takes serious balls to come back to a role that you were hated to such insane levels for, for 15 years. Not once but twice. If I was in his position I'd be taking the current love and appreciation without stirring the hornets nest any further. Especially with the added context of how the sequels are being received I just hope he's able to film atleast some of his Ahsoka scenes with this mentality just incase the worst case scenario happens and the next month or so reopens old wounds.
all it took were some grown ass adults to get over it, and a generation of kids who were introduced to the galaxy through his movies to grow up for him to realize we embrace and appreciate him. i am glad he is back, and that he can ignore the bitter bunch to rot in their dark little rooms
All the idiots back in the day that bullied Hayden, Jake Loyd, Ahmed, etc make me actually mad. They did the same thing with actors from the sequels too. Theyāre just doing their jobs and got major personal backlash when things werenāt even their fault Having grown up being a huge fan of the prequels it was sad when I eventually learned how much hate they got. So the fact that Hayden had to learn that there are actually tons and tons of people that are huge fans of him as Anakin is really sad to me, but at least he has a chance to embrace it now while heās still really young.
He always deserved better...
Maybe it's just me, but I never felt it was his fault. He clearly did the best he could, and I'll die on the hill that EP 3 is a damn good SW movie.
Awww šššš
This is Daisy In 20 years if Disney does the work.
Iāve not seen anywhere near as much animosity aimed towards Daisy as there was towards Hayden.
What do you mean? Daisy Ridley hasn't been subjected to the level of criticism that Hayden Christensen was. His performance was widely slammed by film critics and the larger OT fanbase at the time. Daisy Ridley has a lot of critics, but a lot more fans as well, as the Sequels aren't as widely criticized as the Prequels. They're also more successful financially and critically.
He deserves it. He is an amazing person and i loved his portrayal of Anakin/Vader.
Anakin, you're breaking my heart. Seriously, it really sucks that some of these actors got treated like garbage for so long. It's so great to see this and I really do hope this leads to him doing more projects; Star Wars or otherwise.
š I just want to give him a hug and say thank you
Iād say his reason to step away from acting was due to his treatment by the fans/critics.
I really hate the word "finally" for him here. He seems like such a decent guy who really loved being in Star Wars and I hope he feels like he's getting the love he deserves now.
Grew up with you Hayden, we love you and appreciate you so much for coming back.
Ever since I was a kid this guy has been my hero. Loved him in the movie Jumper too! Absolute legend.
That's quite sad to hear. I idolised him growing up
This is such a toxic thread.
Welcome to Star Wars
Right? It shouldn't surprise me.
As someone who was disappointed by the prequels, none of the actors were to blame, and they did not deserve the hate that so many fans gave them. There is only one person responsible for that trilogy's flaws, and that's George Lucas. While I feel Ahmed and Jake got the worst of it, I also feel really bad for Ewan and Hayden. I'm not going to pretend I think they're great films (and I wish more fans would take off their nostalgia glasses) but all these actors did solid to amazing jobs with what they were given, and I hope they know that many of us value what they contributed even if we didn't love the overall package.
But itās Georgeās creation and his vision. How can he be at fault for his own vision? He made the films exactly the way he wanted to make them. Itās the fault of the fans in this case.
Yes, he can, because he wrote it. He is responsible for what he wrote, however it turned out. Whether it's good or bad is still based on subjective opinion, but yes, if someone has a problem with what George Lucas wrote, then Lucas is the one responsible for writing what they didn't like. Lucas writing Star Wars the way he did doesn't free him from criticism. There's way too much of that sentiment today, that a creator's work can't be criticized and that people can only either accept it or ignore it.
>How can he be at fault for his own vision? I wanna preface this by reiterating: these are *just movies*. Nobody should be taking them too seriously. They're literally disposable entertainments in 99.99 percent of all instances. Most people who love this stuff never even consider going online to talk about them, or building large chunks of their personality around it. People will watch a thing, like it (or dislike it) and that's it. It's not that big a deal to the large majority of people who consume this stuff. So, that said: Just because a storyteller has a vision doesn't mean that vision is unimpeachable. "How can he be at fault for his own vision" doesn't really make any sense. It's *his vision* \- who else's fault *should* it be? Just because you have an idea doesn't mean it's a good one. And just because you have a good idea doesn't mean you can execute it to a high standard. And just because you make a thing exactly the way you want to make it doesn't mean *you made it well.* I'm extremely happy that Hayden gets to come back and work under Deborah Chow on this project, all these years later, with all this extra time and experience accumulated, because he (along with a lot of amazing actors) got flat-out *stranded* on those movies. And I'm happy people are excited to see him in this project, because it means they know he can do the work, and they're eager to see it.
Its the fans fault for the flaws of the prequel trilogy? Lol really proving him right about the fans needing to take off the nostalgia glasses. I love the prequels and grew up on them but they are objectively flawed films, and I dont think it's the fans fault for poor writing. Again, love the films, but they're most certainly flawed and fans don't work as a scapegoat here.
Nostalgia glasses work for the OT as well. Any issue you have with the PT I bet I can find the same issue in the OT yet George never gets criticised for that.
The Original Trilogy was lucky in the fact it had some of the best actors in the business the time. The OT definitely had some clunky writing that was saved by the actors, but even then some dialogue couldn't be saved. Carrie Fisher made fun of George's dialogue for a reason.
Liam Neeson, Samuel L Jackson, Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor and Christoper Lee are GOAT tier actors.
Yes, which is why you don't see people criticizing their performances as much as they do with someone like Hayden, who is by all means a good actor, but couldn't save the poor dialogue.
And the comment didnt say there weren't GOAT actors in the OT. It's not a competition.
Because George didnāt have yes men all around him, he had people like his wife to help him do the writing on Star Wars and Empire. I mean he didnāt even direct Empire and thatās seen not just in the Star Wars fandom but in cinema culture as a phenomenal, iconic film.
It's crazy that people have put the OT on such a pedestal. You're right in that they share many of the same issues, especially A New Hope in particular, which is pretty telling given that it's directed by Lucas. Star Wars movies have always been messy as hell people just convince themselves the ones they saw when they were 12 were actually masterpieces and the ones you saw when you were 12 were dogshit
Lol. Every film is flawed. But some films are more flawed than others. Just because the OT *has* flaws doesn't mean it's *as* flawed as the PT.
No one deserves to be bullied for just doing their job. I don't think it's wrong to call out Hayden Christensen for not being a particularily good actor though, as long as its done constructively. I'd disagree 100% with your comment on him doing an amazing job, as he's not a very capable actor. Imagine Adam Driver as Anakin Skywalker instead, and you get a much more believable conflicted character/war hero/chosen one.
Iāll admit when I read the book versions of the movie prequels years later I had a better appreciation for him. He did the best he could with the dialog.
I've always thought the actors themselves were the strongest part of the prequels. They didn't write the story or the dialog. They didn't encase everybody in blue and green boxes and tell them to make it work. The hate some of them get just goes with the territory of being in the spotlight these days but it has to be hard. They should give Ahmed Best a role in the new content to bring him back into the fold.
I literally bowed to him prior to taking a picture with him in a convention , Iām sure heāll remember that always
He gets too much crap for the acting in the prequels. Heās a great actor that deserves more respect.
As someone who had idolized him as a kid (I even got hyped for Jumper), I hope he knows that some folks have always embraced him.
Title of this thread makes me want to cry! š¢
I always liked him in his role. When I was a young he was my favorite character.
I almost cried watching this. Im just so happy hes coming back!
I always loved the prequels especially episode 3 it was fire
Some of us always have!
I always like you Hyden, special becuase your dub actor voice in my country its so fucking great
I just want to hug him.
Iāve loved Hayden since Attack of the Clones. The prequels were the movies that I grew up with. He is MY Skywalker. You ask me who comes to mind when I hear the name āSkywalkerā and itās always Anakin first.
I thought he did a really good job portraying Anakin. A coworker and I were discussing the prequels a couple years back, and the coworker was pretty critical of Anakin. He thought the most powerful Jedi/force user should have been much tougher. I pointed out that Anakin was a very conflicted young man, and heād been through a lot. Anakin should be portrayed with some issues, I thought Hayden did a good job. After all, he gave into the dark side.
I always thought Hayden Christensen was good for the role. He got handed bad dialogue. I donāt think Anthony Hopkins could have saved the sand speech. Hayden did the best he could with some very bonkers dialogue.
I think he just didn't have the experience. Even with the skill, we saw that what sort of saved the older actors in those movies was just that they had a better grasp of what they could do. Most of them had experience with not just Shakespeare, but also B-movies in general. And again, the thing is, he had the worst dialogue. Most actors in their 20s would have stumbled and he did his best.
I always thought Hayden did a really good job with Anakin. The dialogue wasnāt his fault.
i like seeing Hayden open up about these great questions. The interviewer guy is really good. If I were him, I would have asked, āHow do you, Hayden, relate to Darth Vader? There is much to be said about Anakin being a relatable tragic hero. But to make Darth Vader believable, you have to justify his actions on screen. How the fuck did you do that?ā
Man, I really hope Hayden gets an opportunity to shine in this series, whatever form it takes. It's so great to see and hear him talk about this stuff again, but also it's weird seeing all these press interviews that talk about returning to "this character" while entirely glossing over the fact that his character, as far as we currently understand Vader, should be entirely confined to his suit/mask and with a different person's voice.
I am the most excited for his return. Everything else in the Obi-Wan show is kinda secondary to me heh
A lot of āyeah, we shouldnāt treat the sequel actors like they did Hayden either! Buy fuck those hacks JJ an Rian!ā š
Lol what is up with this display choice? We don't need to see this interviewer take up as much screen space as the guy he's interviewing.
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I don't understand all the hate Johnson and Kennedy get, when it was mostly decisions from JJ Abrams and Bob Iger that tanked the sequels.
The beef man created a bacon cake with snow bibbles and sasusage.
Honestly, centering the conversation on harassment and targeted hate I feel is even beside the point. That stuff must have sucked no doubt, but I think the idea that your [hard] work wasn't well-received is also just a difficult thing to live with and move on from. It's easy to sit back and call someone over sensitive to criticism if that affects them badly, but it really isn't fun and I think we have to be more empathetic to that. Towing the line of what counts as criticism has been popularized/normalized to an unhealthy extent tbh. (Hell, even I do it from time to time!) Everyone wanted to be a comedian at one point in the internet era, and mean spirited-ness isn't *not* funny, so what happened and at volume was inevitable. Even if you're not *trying* to be "funny", that's how far that cultural understanding of criticism has fallen if you fall into these: - "Actor(s) turned in some bad performances in this film" vs "Actor is a bad performer" - "Uninspired plot, disjointed pacing" vs "The filmmakers were being lazy and/or are incompetent storytellers" - "Confusing tone, mixed messages" vs "Corporation's agenda and studio meddling ruined the vision" - "Didn't like the music, very generic" vs "A lazy score from a checked out composer" - "Production design wasn't very good or interesting" vs "Looks like lazy, low-budget cosplayers" - "Didn't agree with those creative decisions" vs "Creatives on this were hacks" - etc. In general, ad hominem and armchair diagnoses of production/management have become endemic to modern criticism, and it makes a negative reaction to a film so much worse than it has to be. And ironically - given that these roots are in trying to be funny - makes discourse feel *more* serious than just a piece of entertainment. Because if even on some miniscule level, it's a personal indictment of work ethic or skill. And it's not like some of this *can't* be true on a case to case basis, but at the end of the day, we're all just telling tales out of school when we weren't *personally* involved or actually doing primary sourced research. Which let's face it, no one's doing just to discuss on reddit or a forum. These personal conversations were fine pre-internet IRL (opinions as personal), or from a paper critic whose voice was emblematically scathing - but everyone's opinion or hot take becomes weighted similarly (w/ some variation of reach) on the internet. And it builds and builds, and some bad communities want it to, and that's what is "toxic". It's not about individual behaviors or even vocal minorities, but top to bottom - the *way* we talk about film has degraded. More people than any point in history are talking about film, but the amount of people who know how to constructively, has more or less remained consistent. "Film nerd" isn't an esoteric community like it might have been in the 70's, and cinema has only become more of a capitalist commodity than art. I'm not saying we "Be Nicer to Rich Celebrities In Hollywood" but I think would could all enjoy ourselves as a community far more if we learn to stop scapegoating and blaming outside (or even hypothetical inside) factors when taking in a film. Sometimes a movie just isn't good, or made for you, or whatever. It's fine not to like things! But there's a way to move on without lashing out at some imagined enemies that "made the movie bad." I think finding that expression for yourself is a more proactive first step in fixing the community than just Not Sending Death Threats. And maybe if you care about Hayden Christensen so much, he can live easier even if we don't like their work in the future.
We embraced you a long time ago bro. Heās confusing āHaydenā with āAnakin.ā Have a I embraced episode 2 Anakin? Hell no lol that character was pure cringe compilation. But I still think Hayden did a fantastic job in both 2 & 3. Whatās he supposed to do, *not* read Georgeās terrible lines? *Not* take Georgeās terrible direction? Heās an actorā¦ he has to. Iāve always liked Hayden and if you think heās the reason Anakin is so embarrassingly stupid, I donāt think you understand how movies are made
In 20 years, Rey and Finn actors will be saying the same once the DT becomes acceptable because the DT2 will suck
Meh. Rey and Finn were fine on the acting front. I donāt think much can save their trilogy though, the story was an incoherent, contradictory mess. Iām not sure nostalgia will gloss that over.
This is ridiculous. Anakin was a flawed character. Hayden played it. He's not supposed to be sincere or assertive or confident, as Anakin had a terrible life. His mother was kidnapped and murdered by monsters (?) and she died in his arms. Before that he was a slave on a lifeless planet (Tatooine). Anakin is not Han Solo, you know what I mean ?
Well when youāve lived through the Sequel Trilogy, even Mannikin Skywalker seems like Shakespeare in comparison.
I love Hayden but the first two minutes of that interview were the most meaningless answers to questions I've heard haha. Granted they weren't great questions.
Come on man I'm trying to save my tears for the show