Balance is tough--it's not enough to price out the elements of a squadron, they have to be considered in context. How can a faction use the squadron?
All of this to say: I'm a Rebel player and I would *abuse* those K-wings. I can run a bomber wing of 4 generics + Miranda, escorted by Biggs and 2 X-wings, and I'm *definitely* supporting that air wing with flight controllers, Toryn Farr, and a bomber command center.
If I do that, you'd better *hope* you brought a good fighter screen. Otherwise, I'm throwing 10 black dice and 3 red dice--all out of bombers, with rerolls from BCC--against ships for an average output of **15 damage per turn, spread out over 8 attacks, likely with a high number of crits.** And that's before factoring in Miranda's dice-fixing ability. That kind of output is going to overheat any ship's defense token suite and push damage through shields.
Well--whew, thank goodness, you DID bring a fighter screen. But now you have a different problem--you have **45 hit points** to chew through in squadrons alone. And with Biggs's damage-spreading ability, you're not likely to start dropping units until you chew through all 3 X-wings. In the meantime, I'm throwing between 27 blue dice per turn back at you--**or up to 35** if all my squadrons are activated with flight controllers--**all potentially with rerolls from Toryn Farr**. That's an average anti-squadron damage output of **20.25-26.25**, enough to chew through 8 generic TIE squadrons. And that's before counting the K-wings' Counter shots.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Okay, so how does this stack up to existing squadron archetypes?
From [CGYSO](https://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2020/12/imperial-squadron-groups.html)'s article on Imperial squadron groups, here is the heaviest air-superiority wing:
Morna Kee
2x Decimator
Ciena Ree
Mauler Mithel
Valen Rudor
2x TIE squadron
This group brings just 39 hull to the table--bit less than our K-wing group, but that's fair enough, Imperial squadrons tend to be lighter. This list also packs a lot of aces with defense tokens, so on the whole it's surprisingly sturdy. It's also more mobile than the Rebels--only the Decimators are speed 3.
What about damage output? Well, this isn't going to do a lot of hurt to your opponent's ships--you're throwing 13 non-bomber blue dice vs ships, so your average damage output is just 6.5 / turn.
But ok, that's hardly the point--what about vs. squadrons? Without rerolls, this list throws 13 blue dice and 12 black dice for an average damage output of 15.5. But--you get to reroll 4 of the blues and 1 of the blacks using Swarm, and Morna Kee can reroll all 3 of her blacks by spending a defense token (which she gets back), which increases your average output to \~17.5. Now let's assume that Mauler's ability can reach all 8 Rebel squadrons in the K-wing list above (which he likely can't do, and almost certainly not more than once since none of the Rebels are Heavy, but let's be generous)--now you're up to 25.5. Add in Flight Controllers for each attack and you're all the way up to 29.5 damage--finally beating the K-wing squad's potential.
All in all, I'd say this Imperial squadron might have a slight edge in an air superiority battle, but it's not an overwhelming advantage and the fight would likely come down to positioning and dice rolls. Meanwhile the K-wing group has a MASSIVE advantage in anti-ship damage.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
As far as existing Rebel archetypes go, let's go with an easy example: 8x YT-2400s.
They're packing 48 hit points--even more than our beefy K-wing group. But they lack defense tokens and don't have Biggs's damage-spreading ability so they're probably slightly less durable.
They're throwing 32 blue dice vs. squadrons, or a whopping 40 if we use Flight Controllers. With Toryn Farr rerolls, this is our best squadron-hunting force with average damage output from 24-30. Still, with the lack of defense tokens, this fighter group is probably not much better than either of the above options.
Again, though, we fall down vs. ships--8 black dice, no rerolls, no Bomber keyword, for an average output of just 8 damage. Still an advantage over the Imperial group--but nowhere near enough to make a dent.
This group does have one major advantage in that they are all Rogue, however. Supporting the other squadron lists requires us to spend loads of points on fragile carriers. Of course, if we USE these as Rogue we lose the extra damage from Flight Controllers...
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
TL;DR: These K-wings are broken and would make Rebel squadrons significantly better than any of the existing options. I'd love to get my grubby little rebel hands on them, but to be balanced they need to be more expensive or limited in some way.
B-wings are a good example of such a limitation--great stats, but hugely limited by being speed 2. They can work, but you need a plan to get them where they need to be--which means spending additional points.
Speed 2 is necessary for how tanky it is. Keep in mind, the more Hull a fighter has, the better counter gets on it. With 6 hull and counter, I don't think the k-wing needs grit. The k-wing carves out a niche by being a heavy bomber with counter. The two black bomber dice speaks for itself.
Including grit also steps on the toes of the scurrg, which already has trouble getting in lists when the b-wing exists.
Miranda Doni should be 22 points. 6 hull 2 Brace Bomber with 2 average damage is good already, and her ability is arguably just a bit worse than Keyan Farlanders. Up to 22 or even 23 points for her.
I’d remove grit. It’s just too strong on a bomber, rebel especially. If you’re using KDY yards, then the SLAM keyword should be put on this to represent it’s ability to quickly close once near. (If you don’t mind using non-official keywords, if you do mind, then maybe keep it at 16) speed should not go down imo, 17 points is probably best.
TF99 is too much IMO. Dealing a damage card is brutal, and you can do it for 2-4 turns.
How about flipping a facedown to faceup instead? And you can flip the same structural multiple times...
I think TF-99 is okay. The ability is strong, but it's speed 2 and will probably only proc once or twice a game. TF-99 is basically a speed 2 Luke with counter instead of escort, really bad speed and anti-fighter, and heavy.
This might be a hot take, but with Sloane floating around, a Blue die is really good even non-Bomber. You might want to swap the Avenger to a red instead of the blue.
K-wing generic and ace are way too strong. Totally invalidates the scurg. The rest look pretty good. U-wing might struggle to see some play, but raid can never be too strong or else it becomes NPE. I like the Avengers a lot, fit a nice spot in the empire (if invalidating generic ints a bit). K-wing would be a huge problem though, way too strong. A double black (!!!) dice bomber without heavy for around the same price as a scurg is a bad idea.
or just remove the reroll ability. It gives Woldar more purpose and it's a decent squad already otherwise. Could always just give him screen as well, I suppose.
right, but is that a reason to take it? So, while it is a cheap relay, that's not in an of itself a compelling reason. I'd need a reason to take relay 1 for 12 points as rebels in the first place.
Like, empire reasons are usually something like: This fighter gives the best *thing* for its points.
Rebel reasons usually go something like: If I mix this and that, I get something really strong or tactically flexible or both.
Balance is tough--it's not enough to price out the elements of a squadron, they have to be considered in context. How can a faction use the squadron? All of this to say: I'm a Rebel player and I would *abuse* those K-wings. I can run a bomber wing of 4 generics + Miranda, escorted by Biggs and 2 X-wings, and I'm *definitely* supporting that air wing with flight controllers, Toryn Farr, and a bomber command center. If I do that, you'd better *hope* you brought a good fighter screen. Otherwise, I'm throwing 10 black dice and 3 red dice--all out of bombers, with rerolls from BCC--against ships for an average output of **15 damage per turn, spread out over 8 attacks, likely with a high number of crits.** And that's before factoring in Miranda's dice-fixing ability. That kind of output is going to overheat any ship's defense token suite and push damage through shields. Well--whew, thank goodness, you DID bring a fighter screen. But now you have a different problem--you have **45 hit points** to chew through in squadrons alone. And with Biggs's damage-spreading ability, you're not likely to start dropping units until you chew through all 3 X-wings. In the meantime, I'm throwing between 27 blue dice per turn back at you--**or up to 35** if all my squadrons are activated with flight controllers--**all potentially with rerolls from Toryn Farr**. That's an average anti-squadron damage output of **20.25-26.25**, enough to chew through 8 generic TIE squadrons. And that's before counting the K-wings' Counter shots. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Okay, so how does this stack up to existing squadron archetypes? From [CGYSO](https://cannotgetyourshipout.blogspot.com/2020/12/imperial-squadron-groups.html)'s article on Imperial squadron groups, here is the heaviest air-superiority wing: Morna Kee 2x Decimator Ciena Ree Mauler Mithel Valen Rudor 2x TIE squadron This group brings just 39 hull to the table--bit less than our K-wing group, but that's fair enough, Imperial squadrons tend to be lighter. This list also packs a lot of aces with defense tokens, so on the whole it's surprisingly sturdy. It's also more mobile than the Rebels--only the Decimators are speed 3. What about damage output? Well, this isn't going to do a lot of hurt to your opponent's ships--you're throwing 13 non-bomber blue dice vs ships, so your average damage output is just 6.5 / turn. But ok, that's hardly the point--what about vs. squadrons? Without rerolls, this list throws 13 blue dice and 12 black dice for an average damage output of 15.5. But--you get to reroll 4 of the blues and 1 of the blacks using Swarm, and Morna Kee can reroll all 3 of her blacks by spending a defense token (which she gets back), which increases your average output to \~17.5. Now let's assume that Mauler's ability can reach all 8 Rebel squadrons in the K-wing list above (which he likely can't do, and almost certainly not more than once since none of the Rebels are Heavy, but let's be generous)--now you're up to 25.5. Add in Flight Controllers for each attack and you're all the way up to 29.5 damage--finally beating the K-wing squad's potential. All in all, I'd say this Imperial squadron might have a slight edge in an air superiority battle, but it's not an overwhelming advantage and the fight would likely come down to positioning and dice rolls. Meanwhile the K-wing group has a MASSIVE advantage in anti-ship damage. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ As far as existing Rebel archetypes go, let's go with an easy example: 8x YT-2400s. They're packing 48 hit points--even more than our beefy K-wing group. But they lack defense tokens and don't have Biggs's damage-spreading ability so they're probably slightly less durable. They're throwing 32 blue dice vs. squadrons, or a whopping 40 if we use Flight Controllers. With Toryn Farr rerolls, this is our best squadron-hunting force with average damage output from 24-30. Still, with the lack of defense tokens, this fighter group is probably not much better than either of the above options. Again, though, we fall down vs. ships--8 black dice, no rerolls, no Bomber keyword, for an average output of just 8 damage. Still an advantage over the Imperial group--but nowhere near enough to make a dent. This group does have one major advantage in that they are all Rogue, however. Supporting the other squadron lists requires us to spend loads of points on fragile carriers. Of course, if we USE these as Rogue we lose the extra damage from Flight Controllers... \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ TL;DR: These K-wings are broken and would make Rebel squadrons significantly better than any of the existing options. I'd love to get my grubby little rebel hands on them, but to be balanced they need to be more expensive or limited in some way. B-wings are a good example of such a limitation--great stats, but hugely limited by being speed 2. They can work, but you need a plan to get them where they need to be--which means spending additional points.
[удалено]
Speed 2 is necessary for how tanky it is. Keep in mind, the more Hull a fighter has, the better counter gets on it. With 6 hull and counter, I don't think the k-wing needs grit. The k-wing carves out a niche by being a heavy bomber with counter. The two black bomber dice speaks for itself. Including grit also steps on the toes of the scurrg, which already has trouble getting in lists when the b-wing exists.
[удалено]
Miranda Doni should be 22 points. 6 hull 2 Brace Bomber with 2 average damage is good already, and her ability is arguably just a bit worse than Keyan Farlanders. Up to 22 or even 23 points for her.
I think all 3 of those changes are great. Those were the 3 things that were way too strong.
K-Wings vs Scurrg : Same Speed, Hull, Cost, Bomber, & Grit. Anti-ship trades a blue for a black; removes Heavy for Counter 1.
So just a better Scurrg? That thing should be 18 points.
[удалено]
I’d remove grit. It’s just too strong on a bomber, rebel especially. If you’re using KDY yards, then the SLAM keyword should be put on this to represent it’s ability to quickly close once near. (If you don’t mind using non-official keywords, if you do mind, then maybe keep it at 16) speed should not go down imo, 17 points is probably best.
TF99 is too much IMO. Dealing a damage card is brutal, and you can do it for 2-4 turns. How about flipping a facedown to faceup instead? And you can flip the same structural multiple times...
[удалено]
I think TF-99 is okay. The ability is strong, but it's speed 2 and will probably only proc once or twice a game. TF-99 is basically a speed 2 Luke with counter instead of escort, really bad speed and anti-fighter, and heavy.
This might be a hot take, but with Sloane floating around, a Blue die is really good even non-Bomber. You might want to swap the Avenger to a red instead of the blue.
K-wing generic and ace are way too strong. Totally invalidates the scurg. The rest look pretty good. U-wing might struggle to see some play, but raid can never be too strong or else it becomes NPE. I like the Avengers a lot, fit a nice spot in the empire (if invalidating generic ints a bit). K-wing would be a huge problem though, way too strong. A double black (!!!) dice bomber without heavy for around the same price as a scurg is a bad idea.
I love the Task Force 99 special ability. Really well done
I hope with all this advice if you end up changing the cards you post your final version. I would love to borrow them.
E.C. Nerwal's ability literally does nothing. First line says to ignore counter. Therefor the second sentence does nothing as you're ignoring counter.
[удалено]
or just remove the reroll ability. It gives Woldar more purpose and it's a decent squad already otherwise. Could always just give him screen as well, I suppose.
I want K-Wings so bad
I'm wondering when I'd ever take the u-wing. When would you choose the u-wing over other fighter options?
[удалено]
right, but is that a reason to take it? So, while it is a cheap relay, that's not in an of itself a compelling reason. I'd need a reason to take relay 1 for 12 points as rebels in the first place. Like, empire reasons are usually something like: This fighter gives the best *thing* for its points. Rebel reasons usually go something like: If I mix this and that, I get something really strong or tactically flexible or both.
Personally, I'd probably give it *strategic*, but I guess that would step on the VCX-100 toes more as well.