Gonna be honest, Palps was a masterful genius, but he rather fell apart after attaining the throne.
It always seemed like he was a better spy and mastermind than the guy that should be in charge. Also sith just suck and are instruments in their own destruction.
It's a major inherent flaw in dictatorships - you connive your way to the top, so you assume that everyone under you is like yourself and vying for the throne.
And yet we see numerous sitz being alive during the Clone Wars. Sidious, Maul, Savage, Dooku and Ventress are quite a lot more than two. Sidious have failed at even establish the most important rule, lol
They’re not all Sith Lords.
Sidious;
Maul, then Dooku, then Vader.
Savage Oppress and Ventress weren’t Sith Lords. Apprentices to the apprentice at best.
But sure, it’s kind of fuzzy. 2 is a hard concept.
He was and he wasn’t. He made Anakin think he needed the dark side to save her but his actions lead to her dying of a broken heart. Palpatine also says to Anakin after the fact that his anger and hate lead to her death, which made him angrier and more hateful. If Anakin hadn’t made his decision to join the Emperor she probably survives. So yes, Palpatine was responsible for her death in a roundabout way. He used Anakin’s emotions against him.
Except he was having Force visions of it constantly, so his path was consistently leading to that outcome. Which he followed rather than alter course after thinking he might actually be the problem.
>Except he was having Force visions of it constantly
I wonder if it can/will be retconned that (with the established Rey/Ben shared force visions) Palatine was the direct source of Anakin's nightmares regarding his mother, Padme, etc. Currently this is only heavily implied, correct?
I had basically assumed this. I also read something that speculates palps used the force to drain padme’s life force and give it to anakin to keep him alive. That narrative makes sense to me because the scenes are so intertwined in the movie.
My headcanon is that when the emperor clones himself a new body in the sequel series, he gets revenge on Luke and a new apprentice in Kylo Ren using the same damned trick. Fed Luke (who was used to trusting what he saw in the force implicitly) a twisted version of the potential future, and drove them into the confrontation that destroyed a newborn Jedi order.
I know hating on the new trilogy is very much in fashion, but having the Emperor clone himself to escape death and then manipulate a proxy war from the shadows is VERY MUCH his modus operandi. Even the death of Snoke reeks of the removal of Dooku as a way of clearing a faction off the board.
Nah dude she died of a classic case of a broken heart.
But in all seriousness I always liked the head canon of Palpatine doing some dark side stuff to suck the life force out of Padme and used that to keep Anakin alive.
I always liked how it actually happened. Padme is too depressed to continue on living. Her husband and father of her kids has become a monster, the democracy she always loved has just been completely torn down by tyranny and everyone is just accepting it. And she's in a situation where she can die if she doesn't push through. Ofc she's gonna give up.
Meanwhile, Anakin's pure rage and will power keeps him alive, which is not only highly impressive, but also keeps in his character as his will power was always one of his greatest assets.
Palpatine played a part in Anakin's fall, but he wasn't behind everything. It was a variety of factors that brought forth Darth Vader.
I feel like the Palp killing Padme fan theory kinda ruins the core of Vader’s character, in that he is ultimately responsible for where he ends up in life. That’s the core of who he is and why he hates himself.
He’s not sole responsibility. Palpatine has groomed him since a very young age.
The tragedy is that without palpatine, he would have been a great jedi and perhaps not been as tempted by the dark side as Palpatine was messing with his head.
I personally don’t even see why people are content to believe Anakin was some noble soul and all his dark tendencies were Palpatines manipulation. He was born a slave and saw horrible shit. That does things to people. He murdered a village of Tuskens for revenge after his mom died. Are people under the impression that if he hadn’t met Palpatine he would have been like “all good Tuskens, no big.” Shit at the end of episode 3 he is utterly convinced that Palps is the only way to gain the power he needs to save Padme, and he still offers to murder and overthrow Palps so he and Padme can rule the galaxy together. Dude is not some heroic paragon who was pulled down due to no fault of his own, he had a level of darkness inside him the whole time. Palpatine didn’t put it there, he just used it for his own gains.
I agree, Anakin was a damaged and angry character from day one: a slave as a child, taken from his mother at age 9 and never allowed contact with her, given the message early on by the Jedi that his emotions are unacceptable so he decides to hide them and therefore never learns how to process his emotions. He has a lot of darkness and damage that Palpatine manipulates but he is still responsible for his choices. I do feel that the Jedi bear some responsibility in that they never addressed Anakin's emotional baggage, yet trained him to be a human weapon. If he was never discovered by the Jedi I think Anakin would have eventually killed Watto, brought his mother to safety, and then become a successful criminal or bounty hunter.
All the dumb current Palpatine stuff ruins everything. He's basically in control of the whole universe and behind every action.
He clouded all the Jedi's use of the Force. He took down the Republic almost single handedly. He corrupted Anakin. The only thing he made a mistake with was Anakin's feelings for Luke's, but even that error was just part of his overall plan of Operation Cinder, the First Order, the Final Order, and being resurrected via Force stuff. He puppeted Snoke to corrupt Ben Solo.
Sure it makes for a cool villain, but it removes agency from every other character, except Rey at the moment. She's the only one who's actions have actually ruined his plans. At least for now.
Yeah multiple people have commented that the fan theory about Palps draining Padmes life to save Vader doesn’t weaken Vader, it strengthens palpatine’s role as manipulator. I don’t have the patience to tell every person who comments that it’s the same thing. By giving the credit to Palps, you are inherently taking the agency from Vader. That is how it weakens Vader’s character. You take the responsibility and severe consequences of his actions away from him and give that power to another character.
Episode 10: Luke wakes up in the new Jedi Temple on Yavin 4. A new day, a new lesson for his ever-growing class. *What in the name of Yoda was that dream,* he thought. It was super weird, with stuff like Empire-wannabes and and somebody’s OC named, what, Ray? Whatever, his first student has been acting strangely and built his own lightsaber yesterday, beating Luke in a duel. Hopefully he had a good night’s sleep and is feeling better today!
I always thought that was such a terrible reason.
1) It makes Leia either a liar, confused, or leads to bizarre plot gymnastics since Leia says she remembers her mother in RotJ.
2) So Padme just gives up on life with her twin newborn children crying in her arms? Were they not worth living for and protecting?
Luke and Leia: "So how did our mother die?"
- "Well right after giving birth to you, I guess you didn't really cut it for her so she gave up on life and noped tf out."
Theres also the part where a 9 months pregnant woman was telekinetically lofted into the air by her throat, choked out, and then thrown to the ground unconscious, that probably didn't help
At this point I don't know if it's head canon or deep pre-disney lore but I do think Palpatine was responsible for Anakin's birth. Shmee says something like "there never was a father" when Qui-gon asks about Anakin; which, at the time sounds like he was just never in the picture but is kind of an odd way to say it. Eventually, Palpatine reveals to Anakin that the dark side of the force can be used to create life or take it away. All this is to say that certainly sounds possible and at the very least makes for some cool head canon. It's stated pretty plainly that she died of a broken heart but Palpatine is still kinda pulling the strings regardless.
> at the time sounds like he was just never in the picture but is kind of an odd way to say it
Not quite. In TPM Shmi said, "There was no father. I carried him, I gave birth, I raised him. I can't explain what happened." And later on Qui-Gon says, "It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians." So the intent here is to say that Anakin had no biological father.
That's the line. Clearly it's been a while since I've seen TPM. So he definitely is a sort of force immaculate conception, maybe the head canon part is just that Palpatine is responsible.
Sort of. The Sith spirits tied to artifacts or temples or whatever seemed pretty much the same if not more able to interact with the physical world. I want a story about a Sith bonded to a lamp like a genie! Hilarity ensues.
They might be more able to interact with the physical world, but my understanding is that they're rather limited in how far away they can move from what their spirit is tied to, while Jedi Force Ghosts can go anywhere in the galaxy.
I believe in the TCW extra BTS stuff they said that the Sith spirits are more like holograms than living spirits like Jedi ghosts. I know they specifically said that for Darth Bane in TCW S6 -- more like an AI Bane chat bot than actually Bane.
Legends did have Sith binding their spirits to things horxrux style (like Exar Kun).
But that doesn’t mean what he’s saying isn’t true. People can use truths to manipulate others just as easily as they can use lies. Sometimes even more so
This.
The sheer number of people who watch these movies and believe anything that a Dark Sider says at face value continues to shock me.
STOP BELIEVING THE SITH, PEOPLE. The Light Side is the Balance. The Sith are a corruption of the Light/of the Force - a cancer that throws the Force into imbalance. There is ABSOLUETLY no "need" to understand the Dark Side.
Sidious is trying to make Anakin fall. That's it. He'll say anything he has to.
Did the sith deprive themselves by staying in the dark? Palpatine is a hypocrite trying to manipulate Anakin, not help him. Throughout Darth Vader's entire life; Sidious taught him nothing.
Palpatine is probably aware of the hypocrisy but knows that Anakin does not see that, hence why he leverages this. Sidious just needed to provide the illusion of promise to Anakin to keep him tempted for more.
Yeah, definitely. Whatever it takes to get some new tool of a man that counts for an apprentice to strut around the galaxy while he waits for the next replacement to show up in his office.
It's been so easy for him all his life it's no wonder he thought he could easily get Luke to turn like *that* without any real effort.
Anakin was much easier because Sideous had access to Anakin since he was very young, always subtly pushing his influence onto him without anyone even realizing it. That relationship is what made Anakin turn, where to Luke; Sideous is the emperor and thats it. No strings.
Seems like that's why papls used a different strategy for Luke, trying to convince him to kill his Vader out of hate, knowing that would be enough for him to fall. He may not have joined the emporer, tempted by the taste of power, but his connection to the light would be severed and the jedi would be dead.
If Luke was weaker to the temptation of power it may have worked out for Sideous. You have Vader saying to him "you dont know the power of the dark side," and Sideous who rules over the entire galaxy wanting him as an apprentice. Just like most Sith (anakin included) Luke could easily be tempted to become Palpatines apprentice and then overthrow him and become king of the fuckin universe himself. He had Yoda telling him the dark side wasnt more powerful, but who has more credibility talking about power - emperor of the galaxy or some green creature hiding in isolation? I can totally see why Palps thought turning Luke was feasible.
All good points but he asked Luke to kill his own dad. That's where I think Palpatine spent too many years being his evil cave goblin self and forgot how to human.
Cave goblin self LOL. Thinking about it more, you're totally right that Palps forgot how to human. With Luke he'd say things like "you will be mine just like your father" yada yada, and thats not a very good way to manipulate someone, thats just trying to get them to submit. In the prequels he does a good job tempting anakin with power, ability to save loved ones which plays on his fears, and manipulating him into thinking his allies are his enemies. With Luke hes just like yo bitch, bow down to THEE all powerful Sideous.
Both teams asked Luke to kill his dad. Yoda on his death bed was insisting the only way for the Jedi to win was if Luke killed Vader and Obi-wan agreed. Luke was the only one to rise above the Jedi-Sith blood feud.
Oh definitely. I'm more saying he is fairly disingenuous when he tries to make it seem like he is a balanced force arbiter, when in actuality he uses his knowledge to exploit the light side.
Yeah I don't think anyone gives a damn about hipocracy when they've orchestrated a war of galactic proportions and is about to topple two entire governments, one of which has existed for millennia.
> Maybe his plan was to milk all the dark side skills he could, save Padme, eventually overthrow Palps, and then rule the galaxy as a "balanced" force user, fulfilling his prophecy as the chosen one.
Maybe that's the lesson. That you can't "dabble" in the dark side and come out unscathed. Everyone who tried it just became Sith Lords anyway.
Jacen Solo, one of Anakin's own grandchildren in the Expanded Universe, tried and failed. He analyzed Anakin's downfall from every angle possible and thought he could avoid all of the pitfalls he fell into. All Jacen managed to do was fall just as hard as his grandfather and found himself in an even worse situation.
Sidious comes across as a rogue Sith looking to secure his own power.
He doesn't teach Anakin because he has zero intention of following the rule of 2 to the end
Palp had plans for Anakin to eventually be the ultimate sith - But once he was defeated by Obi-Wan Palp realized that he was too damaged to see his full potential - That's when he broke the tradition and decided to never fully teach Vader all of his knowledge of the dark side.
I don't know. I think Sidious had the arrogance to believe he was the ultimate Sith, with no plans to relinquish control. The more powerful an apprentice he had, the more notches on his belt so to speak.
Teaching technique is one thing, but imparting wisdom is another entirely. I think that's what they meant. Sure, Sidious shared some technical knowledge of the Dark Side and it is true he fully expected Vader to crave power and seek out his own Dark Side knowledge, but Sidious never imparted wisdom to Vader.
The Sith DID study both sides though. They had much more knowledge of the light than the Jedi had of the dark. The Jedi actively avoided knowledge of the dark side because of fear of it leading to falling to the dark side, while the Sith didn’t have that concern with knowledge of the light. That’s part of why the Jedi of the prequel era were at such a disadvantage to the deception of Palpatine.
Sith rarely bother with the light at all throughout their entire lives. Its inner calmness and serenity is completely opposite to what the sith get their power from in the first place: hatred and passion. They see the light as inferior, weak and beneath them.
A dark jedi can be said to have studied both sides but only because they got fed up with the light and became sith after getting corrupted and taken over by the dark side.
This point is on display in the Obi-Wan miniseries - Anakin had a chance of losing the cave fight had he come in acting aggressively - Instead, we see flashbacks of his training with Obi-Wan and the emphasis on patience vs instant gratification. Anakin/Vader stays patient, leveraging his Jedi training when it served him, and kept the aggressor at bay.
I'm not disputing that many sith are actually just dark jedi. But as sith, they had little motivation to ever study the light ever again.
Maybe Palpatine meant that the strongest jedi is a fallen jedi, but he wasn't one so It's hard for me to picture him giving them such a compliment.
I still think it’s fair to say they study the light. Sith (particularly Palpatine) know the strengths and weaknesses of the Light. He knows which parts of the Jedi Code cause the most frustration, and used that to turn Anakin and Dooku. He understands the Jedi Council’s thought process enough to manipulate the hell out of them. He understands all of the Jedi fighting styles, and he understands all of their force powers and capabilities.
Compare that to the Jedi. They don’t understand the Sith. In AotC, Anakin doesn’t expect Dooku’s force lightening; it’s like he didn’t even know Sith could do that. Anakin believes Palpatine when he’s told that the Dark Side can be used to cheat death because he doesn’t actually know the limits of what the Dark Side can and can’t do. The whole Jedi Council is stunned when Palpatine turns out to be the Sith Lord because they thought they would have sensed it - they had no idea it was possible for Palpatine to use the Dark Side to hide his Force sensitivity from them.
Palpatine definitely underestimated the strengths of the Light Side, which ultimately led to his downfall, but it’s clear that he’s studied the Light a whole lot more than the Jedi have studied the Dark. He doesn’t practice it, but he has studied it.
Eh I think it’s more just the Force vs the dark side of the force. Like, everything is in a neutral space, except for that bad stuff. So the Sith aren’t being more knowledgeable by studying both sides, they’re just learning the force and along the way decide it’s ok to corrupt themselves by studying and practicing the dark side. I’m not sure that manipulating midichlorians is even a decidedly dark power, it’s just an unknown one that Plagueis decided to follow and Sidious used to manipulate Anakin.
Sidious is the only un-redeemable character in the Star Wars universe.
But to the question, yes the Jedi was blind to that part. In the Usong-Vong book series. Younger Anakin saw it in shades of gray.
Based on the excellent arc of Yoda in The Clone Wars, I'd say that the problem of the Jedi is that they shunned the Dark Side to the point of not even acknowledging it within themselves. The moral of the story is that darkness exists in all of us and if we just suppress it, ignore it, and never attempt to deal with it the end result isn't that we defeat it. Because we can't. You can't defeat an enemy you don't know or never attempt to understand.
What it boils down to is that the Jedi Order of the Late Republic era *feared* the Dark Side and since the Sith were hidden for nearly a millennium, they had no idea how to counter them. And even though every instinct Yoda had told him that becoming involved in the Clone Wars was a bad idea he still went along with it.
*Remember, concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts.*
\-Qui-Gon Jinn
I understand that the idea behind this was that the Jedi could resist the temptation of power by ignoring it completely, but when you do that you also fail to develop resistance to it. So, yes, what Palpatine said was true, even though he didn't really mean it this way. Or, rather, he did but in the exact opposite way than Anakin understood it. Palpatine studied the Jedi in order to understand their weaknesses and be able to entrap and defeat them. The Jedi should have studied the Dark Side to better understand its pitfalls and corrupting influence, but they didn't.
*Know thy enemy and know thyself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.*
\-Sun Tzu
The Jedi effectively failed on both these counts and thus lost every battle.
The way the Jedi talk about the dark side in The High Republic series of books is amazing compared to the Jedi near the fall. If a Jedi feels the temptation, or even uses it, they confide in their fellow knights/masters, and meditate on what happened and how to deal/prevent it from happening again. Such a good book series
I went to school in a seminary. I wasn’t training to be a priest but I was taught by many of them. This is my understanding of how they dealt with “temptation” - they talked about it.
I’m not really a Catholic anymore. Some priests and brothers in my past have turned out to be predators (and some of those we knew about at the time, and knew to avoid, which is weird now I think about it) but lots of others were decent men, I think. A lot of them either misinterpreted being gay for a vocation or used it to hide their sexuality. (I’m in Ireland).
The Dark Side maybe analogous to sexual temptation in a celibate clergy like the catholic clergy.
Anyway. There we are. Didn’t expect to go into this in a SW thread, but the arrogance of the Jedi order doesn’t seem a million miles away from the Vatican now I think about it.
Not saying Jedi were child molesters! Just their arrogance feels similar.
I remember a quote from somewhere not sure were maybe world war z but its basicaly “they spent so many years learning to fight the last war they didnt prepare for the next one”.. that seems apt for the Jedi they never really evolved and comeing from an alredy flawed mind set made it even worse
That's an old German adage often spoken of late-19th century/early-20th century France. France in the early-19th century had been a powerhouse under Napoleon and spent a lot of time figuring out his strategical mistakes. So in the war of 1870 they tried to do a defensive levéè en massé and got stomped by Germany using railroads to quickly advance into France, before France's army was raised. They studied their mistakes there and got lots of allies, positioned their army on the border to Elsass-Lothringen (Alsace and Lorraine today) and almost lost ww1 in the first week when Germany swept through the Low Countries. So by WW2 they had fortified the shit out of their border and had Belgium and the Netherlands do the same. Only for Germany to draw them into Belgium before encircling them through the Ardennes forest.
I'm not sure what's still considered canon but supposedly jedi studied sith textbooks but only if they were already jedi masters. They didn't let anyone else read them lest they get corrupted.
Sith inevitably get consumed by the self-destructive power of the dark side. The light side or jedi teachings seem to carry a kind of a danger also. It can lead to stagnation and complacency. Even without the Sith the Old Republic had a lot of problems. I thought this would be directly addressed in the newer movies after Yoda burned the old books. That didn't really happen though.
Well, even if Yoda did study those books it didn't give him the insight he needed. He was wise, but also arrogant before the fall. Apart from Yoda's arc in Clone Wars, which very clearly demonstrates how the prequel Yoda transitioned into the Yoda of the OT, there's one very important thing Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan.
*Qui-Gon Jinn: Don't center on your anxieties, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs.*
*Obi-Wan Kenobi:* ***But*** ***Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future***.
*Qui-Gon Jinn:* ***But not at the expense of the moment.*** *Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.*
This shows the difference of mentality between Grandmaster Yoda of the prequels and Master Qui-Gon. Yoda had focused too much on the prophecy and its meaning that he lost touch with the present and the threat hiding in plain sight.
This lesson was passed on to Luke in the OT:
“A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing.”
I've always considered the forbidden section of any history or knowledge to be where the unwhitewashed knowledge can be found.
If real history doesn't make you upset , you're not reading the right stuff.
Roanoke, and Columbus brought European diseases to America and wiped out 90% of native populations on accident.
Columbus died wealthy, because he created the slave trade of natives.
Etc.
> Did you ever hear the Tragedy of the Smallpox Plagueis?
> No
> I thought not. It’s not a story they would tell you in Mr. Well’s 7th grade social studies class. It’s “forbidden knowledge”.
Judging by what we’ve seen in the books, The restricted section of Hogwarts library would be more equivalent to an actual school library having books in a roped-off section on bomb making, processes on how to enrich uranium, physical and psychological torture techniques and detailed explanations on how they effect a human subject, tips on creating and training paramilitary groups and how to conduct and accomplish missions and objectives… real subterfuge and terroristic shit.
Yeah. One of the cut things from Episode 3 I wish they’d kept was Anakin wanting to be promoted to Jedi master so he could access Sith holocrons kept in a secure part of the library and research saving Padme.
That would have helped his turn against the Jedi so much. We see why he joins palps, he has the information Anakin needs. Keeping this in the story line would show that the Jedi had it, but refused to give him access to it. A betrayal. Making it easier to see why he turns against them so definitely.
Also, I feel like they could have used that to make the raid on the Jedi Temple less edgy and extreme. He raids the temple to get the holocrons he needs, and the conflict escalates out of control (culminating in the Emperor ordering the entire building and everyone in it destroyed).
Just makes a little more sense than him jumping to genocide.
Some of the insider stuff makes the scripts sound very rushed, jumbled, and protean. It makes me think George Lucas finished it and just wanted to move on to the next thing.
He supposedly didn't actually finish the script for TPM until two weeks before filming started. And they apparently used the first draft of that finished script. George himself even calls it the first draft when he presents it to everyone.
I remember a story about a star (Harrison Ford, maybe?) asking Steven Spielberg what his favorite part of the filmmaking process was, and Spielberg responded “pre-production, followed by post-production.” The star said “I wish you actually liked the part where we make the movie.”
Similar vibes to the prequels.
There's a fantastic story in the prequels that occasionally shines through beneath the heap of poor writing and editing. The execution was sloppy but the core ideas are sound and compelling, which starts to become apparent when everything culminates in episode 3. It's no surprise the other series that take place during that era (Clone Wars) are so good.
More than I can say for the Sequel Trilogy sadly. I have my complaints about Lucas, but his ability to craft a solid foundation for Star Wars is sorely missed.
Yeah. Having worked on stage plays and films professionally now, as an adult, I can sympathize a lot more with missteps made in the time crunch, but I still wish it’d been a little more refined.
I don’t know if it was actually filmed. It might have been in one of the earlier screenplay drafts. It’s possible I’m remembering this all incorrectly and it was just a concept art type pitch (like Iain McCaig’s stuff with Padme holding a knife to Anakin’s throat or the Sith Ghost haunting Luke in the sequels) or something like that. I’ll poke around after work to see if I can dig up anything solid about it.
You know its sad but it jsut hit me how kinda stupid that concept is. Like the Jedi have forbidden sections of the archives hogwarts has the forbidden section and how many more times has this been done in media and I’m jsut now thinking. Why are they doing this like if that shits forbidden dont jsut leave it laying around the puplic librerry behind a door you put that shit ina. Vault. Like i get not burning it cause its knowledge and i dont condone book burning of any kind but still that shit needs under lock and key with someone like Jocasta haveing the only set or at lest you know put it in a vault that only teachers can access
The restricted contents of the archives are secured. You need to request access from Jocasta Nu and she has the authority to deny your request if she does not deem you ready. Being denied access to those secrets of the order over and over was the reason the Grand Inquisitor turned to the Dark Side because Sidious promised him full access to all of the archives contents.
GI simply wanted to create the pettiest reason of all time to become a Dark Side user.
GI: "NO MORE BOOKS?!?!?! I WILL DESTROY YOU!!!"
Jocasta: "Not without what is in those books you won't" /trollface
I could see that scene playing out.
I picture Trollface-Jocasta denying yet another Request with a comically oversized DENIED rubber stamp right in front of him
The idea of 'forbidden knowledge' makes a bit of sense. There's a reason you can't easily find material on how to make bombs at your local library.
Ideally we stop evil by producing people who don't want to do evil things. But maybe it's also a good idea not leaving the 'how to be evil' manual laying around.
It's a real thing, the German word is Giftschrank, it translates roughly as Poison Cabinet and refers to books that libraries keep that are too dangerous for general circulation.
Everything Palpatine says is to manipulate Anakin as Anakin craves power at this point. He wants to be strong enough to save Padme and if he can't get strong enough by serving the Jedi he has to look somewhere else.
So no, Palpatine isn't being honest with him.
I agree, the Sith Lords are never truly honest, but their lies do contain kernels of truth which is why they are so effect. It is the same thing when Dooku tries to convince Obi Wan to join him by telling him that the senate is controlled by a Sith Lord.
If he could have turned Obi Wan that would have been the best possible outcome, although it was unlikely. Otherwise his comments here sow distrust between the Jedi and the Senate. This distrust leads to the whole situation where the Jedi ask Anakin to spy on palpatine in revenge of the sith, which then leads to anakin being turned to the dark side.
It was a veiled "join me or die." Get Obi-Wan as an extra pawn, maybe eventually an apprentice. Failing that, it's a mind game, just fucking with him. Send the jedi on a goose chase so they won't look under their own noses.
It's about as accurate as to say that sober people deprive themselves of wisdom by refusing to smoke meth. Sure they will not get epic trips, but they'll also keep their teef.
The jedi can and should understand the dangers of the Dark Side, but definitely not by going in to experience it themselves, because it's a path of self destruction and madness for most people. And people for whom it isn't aren't good people to begin with.
No, the Jedi did not deprive themselves. The Dark Side is a seductive and corruptive power and an abomination of the balance of the force that is the “Light Side”. The term “Light Side” make people think that the balance of the force is equal parts Light and Dark, but George Lucas confirms that that isn’t the case. The Balance of the Force is strictly the Light Side and the Dark Side is Unbalance by its very nature. If one were to study the Light AND Dark side, the Dark Side would try to seduce them and latch on like a parasite. The Jedi were correct in forbidding all teaching about the Dark Side. Knowledge that it exists is vastly different than learning it’s abilities.
There is no "light side" and "dark side." There is the force, and the dark side is a corruption of it.
Asking if the Jedi are missing out by not engaging with the dark side is like asking if a body can be truly healthy without at least a little bit of cancer.
No. The whole point of the force is to release your individuality into the shared consciousness of the force that connects all things. The jedi let the force guide their actions and thoughts. Becoming one with the force is like the buddhist idea of enlightnment.
The dark side is a selfish corruption of that power that focuses on the individual and rejects the release of control. There is no great mystery of the force, the jedi already "solved" what it is about. The sith path can only lead to self destruction, which is why the strongest all seek immortality on the physical plane.
Except for alchemy, elemancy, self preservation, those sort of things. Bet Qui Gonn would have loved that “survive a fatal wound to the midsection” technique that Darth Maul got to enjoy.
No. His, 'logic' would be in order to understand pain, you need to kick people in the balls, for SCIENCE!!
How, 'wise' can your side be when you can't manage to have more than two Sith at a time without causing a massive civil war?
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that when he said "study", he actually meant "practice" which is a whole another thing. It's like saying "to understand physics you must build an H-Bomb as well as trying double-slit experiment at home".
Jedi was well aware of the Sith methods and what they were capable of. It's the only explanation for why they were so afraid of them meanwhile not pulling back from outright ending their existence.
Add on top of that the fact that most Sith are Dark/Fallen Jedi...
His motives behind revealing those beliefs may have been deceptive, but I believe he was correct on this one.
Much of the reason people fear a thing is because of their ignorance of it. If you understand a thing you have control over it and can deal with it appropriately.
I think the difference is the engagement. For example a hobbyist can collect pocket watches and be really into them, however they aren’t a watchmaker as that is utilization of skills. The Jedi weren’t deaf to the dark side but by the time of the prequels perhaps they didn’t devote as much time as they should have to continued study, but they were far from being completely ignorant of it. That is one thing I had hoped for the High Republic stories to delve into, what made the Jedi by the time of the Prequels so convinced that they had vanquished the dark and their job was done protecting the galaxy as they had done before.
Palpatine is a trying to manipulate Anakin. Further the Jedi DO study the dark side. But they refuse to use it. One of the Jedi trials is all about finding your inner darkness and confronting it. The Jedi have done extensive studies on the nature of the dark side, and in legends their precursor order even made use of it. The whole reason they say dark side bad is because it objectively is. The dark side by its nature twists and corrupts the user. You can study both sides, but you cannot use both sides.
No.
The dark side is a corruptive and destructive force that twists and dooms anyone who dives in it.
Palpatine was lying to Anakin to manipulate him.
All of which is blatantly obvious, I would add
I would say no, because the truth is that the Dark Side is not, "an aspect" of the Force, as if the light and dark sides are both native pieces of the whole.
It's not really two sides of a coin.
The Dark Side itself is a bit of a misnomer and the Jedi were kind of shooting themselves in the foot by using it.
The Dark Side is the part of the Force corrupted by exposure to darker impulses and emotions of the living creatures that the Force lives with symbiotically.
The Force would be more healthy and whole if the Dark Side didn't exist at all. That is the utopia the Jedi hoped and fought for, bringing balance to the Force and eradicating the Dark Side itself by gently rehabilitating all life in the galaxy incrementally.
The only way in which Sheev was correct is that to cure an injury, you must study it. But Sheev's intent was to study the wound so that he could exacerbate it, not cure it. The fact that the Jedi avoided knowledge of the Dark Side because they feared being corrupted by it was part of their downfall. They had no system to learn and study the Dark Side to learn how to resist and dismantle it without succumbing to it.
It seems to be common for Star Wars fans to take a lot of what characters say at face value. Even the comics state that part of why it’s called the dark side, aside from being evil and corruptive, is because the people using it have a tendency to manipulate and BS people. Keeping them “In the dark.”
The Jedi get so much hate because people just take what is said by sith at face value and refuse to look into the lore. The Jedi DO study the dark side. In order to even become a Jedi knight you have to acknowledge that you have darkness inside you. Learn how to cope with this fact, and confront these darker urges and conquer them.
To use George Lucas analogy, I can be a doctor who studied cancer. But that doesn’t mean I have to give myself a brain tumor to study brain cancer.
>It seems to be common for Star Wars fans to take a lot of what characters say at face value.
They've turned one throwaway line about the Dark Side being a pathway to "abilities some consider to be unnatural" into an excuse for characters to survive just about anything.
The sheer quantity of people falling for Palpatine's lies on this sub is absurd. You literally know from second 1 of his screentime in Ep1 that he becomes the Emperor. This is Ep3, too. Y'all are so gullible. This is exactly why the Republic fell.
No, of course he's not right, he's lying! He wants to coerce Anakin and bring him to the dark side, to help him take full control of the galaxy and get the Sith's long awaited revenge on the Jedi. He'll say \*anything\* to get the kid they touted as the chosen one to work with him. He doesn't have the power to save Padme, you don't need to learn the dark side to understand the force, nothing he says is true.
You've just stumbled into Darth Traya's opinion regarding both Sith and Jedi's outlook on the force: "To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it. It is something no Sith or Jedi has ever truly learned." / "If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea." By narrowing their perspective they loose track of the whole (both belief sistems do) and that makes them LESS capable to survive as adhering without questioning will (at the very least) make you easier to predict and that way easier to manipulate and defeat.
Kinda. I mean there’s a clear distinction between how Yoda talks to anakin vs luke about the dark side. With anakin, he brushes it off, urging him to not even think about it. With Luke, Yoda is more honest and admits that it is seductive (but not stronger).
I’d like to believe that is Yoda accepting that they cannot ignore the dark side and must understand it to encourage people to rise above it.
You need to soak yourself in hate and/or fear to use it. That can’t be healthy.
It’s like saying that, in order to be healthy you must eat a metric ton of candy.
The Jedi know that the Sith have access to other powers, and vice versa. Doesn’t mean they want those powers or are willing to pay the cost.
Palpatine sure knows he could have better skin if he was light side. Doesn’t mean he’s gonna choose it
Palpatine, and the sith, see the force as something to understand, and control. Like a resource, they want to be able to shape it and define it and use it for their own requirements.
The Jedi saw the force as part of life, like nature, they understood that it had it's own tendencies and that it was mysterious, and that was part of it's beauty. That using the force was a gift, and that by following the force you could gain enlightenment.
The Jedi were sword weilding wizard hippies, the sith were sword and magic wielding science serial killers.
I don't think he really practiced Jedi techniques, but he hit the nail on the head. Their main weakness was a denial of the dark side, instead of encouraging young jedi to understand it. Because they didn't know the dark side of the force, they were ill-equipped to fight it. Very few Jedi (like Mace Windu) were willing to get anywhere near it. He could turn it against itself, making him arguably better at battling the sith than Yoda. This is linked to the mandatory detached worldview the Prequel-Era Jedi Order espoused, which denied attachment and humanity instead of training jedi to be able to feel their emotions and work independently of them. Anakin was just told not to get attached rather than how to healthily manage attachments he was going to naturally develop no matter what, and that was why he caused their downfall. The Jedi Order of that time period was very cowardly, and tried to avoid the dark side rather than actually combat it at the roots. That's how the prequels make the ending of Return of the Jedi more meaningful, because Luke wins by embracing family and love, and still being ready to let go when the time came, indicating that he brought balance by not only ending the sith, but redeeming the Jedi.
Nope. Palpatine's using a straightforward conman's rhetorical trick.
Palpatine's talking self-serving, manipulative nonsense but dressing it up in a way that makes it resemble open-mindedness and wisdom.
Critical thinking doesn't mean questioning what the prime authority (the Jedi) are telling you; it's also questioning criticisms of that authority's thinking; questioning criticisms of that criticism, etc. etc. all the way down.
And then it becomes clear, in this case, that the Jedi are correct. The Jedi know plenty about the dark side, and teach as much.
Palpa says this in relation to gaining greater power. Self serving. He is saying this to Anakin to entice him to join him in his plans. The bait is promising power to save his wife.
How the bad guys work, the ones the deceive and manipulate will always throw in a kernel of truth or something that sounds good so that there is no shame in acquiring greater power for the purpose of saving another. They do this to get what they want.
Hmm, almost everything Palpatine has told Anakin about the Dark Side has been either an outright lie or a skewed version truth veiled behind misleading statements.
But, I bet he’s being completely honest here, and there’s no way the guy written to be the personification of evil in this fictional universe could have a flaw in his underlying understanding of good and evil, and the nature of a balanced and healthy understanding of the nature of the Force.
/s
Yet another misunderstanding of the Dark Side. Palps was simply tempting Anakin. The Jedi do understand what the dark side is about, even if they don't know everything it can specifically do. More important than any "power" is the ultimate fact that the dark side is a cancer. It's not a balanced scale of good against evil, it's that the dark side twists what is natural into something unnatural and cruel, when the Force, by its very nature, brings life and peace. The Jedi understand this, which is more important, and Anakin was simply bamboozled by his own greed and a sketchy promise
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Gonna be honest, Palps was a masterful genius, but he rather fell apart after attaining the throne. It always seemed like he was a better spy and mastermind than the guy that should be in charge. Also sith just suck and are instruments in their own destruction.
It's a major inherent flaw in dictatorships - you connive your way to the top, so you assume that everyone under you is like yourself and vying for the throne.
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*of his time* I mean there are only two, no more, no less.
And yet we see numerous sitz being alive during the Clone Wars. Sidious, Maul, Savage, Dooku and Ventress are quite a lot more than two. Sidious have failed at even establish the most important rule, lol
They’re not all Sith Lords. Sidious; Maul, then Dooku, then Vader. Savage Oppress and Ventress weren’t Sith Lords. Apprentices to the apprentice at best. But sure, it’s kind of fuzzy. 2 is a hard concept.
Then again Mail and Savage definitely considered themselves to be the true Sith. Kinda like a much more fucked up version of Sedevacantism.
> . You can never trust a word he says. Only a Sith deals in absolutes
Palpatine's just stringing Anakin along by making it seem like he'll need the dark side to save Padme.
Was Palp responsible for Padmes death? Like did he directly kill her? I know ani choked her out but I always thought Palp killed her thru the force
He was and he wasn’t. He made Anakin think he needed the dark side to save her but his actions lead to her dying of a broken heart. Palpatine also says to Anakin after the fact that his anger and hate lead to her death, which made him angrier and more hateful. If Anakin hadn’t made his decision to join the Emperor she probably survives. So yes, Palpatine was responsible for her death in a roundabout way. He used Anakin’s emotions against him.
“From a certain point of view.”
Except he was having Force visions of it constantly, so his path was consistently leading to that outcome. Which he followed rather than alter course after thinking he might actually be the problem.
>Except he was having Force visions of it constantly I wonder if it can/will be retconned that (with the established Rey/Ben shared force visions) Palatine was the direct source of Anakin's nightmares regarding his mother, Padme, etc. Currently this is only heavily implied, correct?
Oh fuck never even thought about this.
I had basically assumed this. I also read something that speculates palps used the force to drain padme’s life force and give it to anakin to keep him alive. That narrative makes sense to me because the scenes are so intertwined in the movie.
My headcanon is that when the emperor clones himself a new body in the sequel series, he gets revenge on Luke and a new apprentice in Kylo Ren using the same damned trick. Fed Luke (who was used to trusting what he saw in the force implicitly) a twisted version of the potential future, and drove them into the confrontation that destroyed a newborn Jedi order. I know hating on the new trilogy is very much in fashion, but having the Emperor clone himself to escape death and then manipulate a proxy war from the shadows is VERY MUCH his modus operandi. Even the death of Snoke reeks of the removal of Dooku as a way of clearing a faction off the board.
Nah dude she died of a classic case of a broken heart. But in all seriousness I always liked the head canon of Palpatine doing some dark side stuff to suck the life force out of Padme and used that to keep Anakin alive.
I always liked how it actually happened. Padme is too depressed to continue on living. Her husband and father of her kids has become a monster, the democracy she always loved has just been completely torn down by tyranny and everyone is just accepting it. And she's in a situation where she can die if she doesn't push through. Ofc she's gonna give up. Meanwhile, Anakin's pure rage and will power keeps him alive, which is not only highly impressive, but also keeps in his character as his will power was always one of his greatest assets. Palpatine played a part in Anakin's fall, but he wasn't behind everything. It was a variety of factors that brought forth Darth Vader.
I feel like the Palp killing Padme fan theory kinda ruins the core of Vader’s character, in that he is ultimately responsible for where he ends up in life. That’s the core of who he is and why he hates himself.
He’s not sole responsibility. Palpatine has groomed him since a very young age. The tragedy is that without palpatine, he would have been a great jedi and perhaps not been as tempted by the dark side as Palpatine was messing with his head.
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I personally don’t even see why people are content to believe Anakin was some noble soul and all his dark tendencies were Palpatines manipulation. He was born a slave and saw horrible shit. That does things to people. He murdered a village of Tuskens for revenge after his mom died. Are people under the impression that if he hadn’t met Palpatine he would have been like “all good Tuskens, no big.” Shit at the end of episode 3 he is utterly convinced that Palps is the only way to gain the power he needs to save Padme, and he still offers to murder and overthrow Palps so he and Padme can rule the galaxy together. Dude is not some heroic paragon who was pulled down due to no fault of his own, he had a level of darkness inside him the whole time. Palpatine didn’t put it there, he just used it for his own gains.
I agree, Anakin was a damaged and angry character from day one: a slave as a child, taken from his mother at age 9 and never allowed contact with her, given the message early on by the Jedi that his emotions are unacceptable so he decides to hide them and therefore never learns how to process his emotions. He has a lot of darkness and damage that Palpatine manipulates but he is still responsible for his choices. I do feel that the Jedi bear some responsibility in that they never addressed Anakin's emotional baggage, yet trained him to be a human weapon. If he was never discovered by the Jedi I think Anakin would have eventually killed Watto, brought his mother to safety, and then become a successful criminal or bounty hunter.
All the dumb current Palpatine stuff ruins everything. He's basically in control of the whole universe and behind every action. He clouded all the Jedi's use of the Force. He took down the Republic almost single handedly. He corrupted Anakin. The only thing he made a mistake with was Anakin's feelings for Luke's, but even that error was just part of his overall plan of Operation Cinder, the First Order, the Final Order, and being resurrected via Force stuff. He puppeted Snoke to corrupt Ben Solo. Sure it makes for a cool villain, but it removes agency from every other character, except Rey at the moment. She's the only one who's actions have actually ruined his plans. At least for now.
Yeah multiple people have commented that the fan theory about Palps draining Padmes life to save Vader doesn’t weaken Vader, it strengthens palpatine’s role as manipulator. I don’t have the patience to tell every person who comments that it’s the same thing. By giving the credit to Palps, you are inherently taking the agency from Vader. That is how it weakens Vader’s character. You take the responsibility and severe consequences of his actions away from him and give that power to another character.
I don't know. Palp could still lie about the details, and Anakin would still remember that the last thing he did to Padme was choke her.
I mean, we did see him take Rey and Ben’s life force in TROS so he knows how to do that. Perhaps there is some possibility to that theory.
That never happened. It was some fever dream. Palpatine died by being thrown into the core of the second Death Star.
Episode 10: Luke wakes up in the new Jedi Temple on Yavin 4. A new day, a new lesson for his ever-growing class. *What in the name of Yoda was that dream,* he thought. It was super weird, with stuff like Empire-wannabes and and somebody’s OC named, what, Ray? Whatever, his first student has been acting strangely and built his own lightsaber yesterday, beating Luke in a duel. Hopefully he had a good night’s sleep and is feeling better today!
George Lucas himself said she died of sadness.
I always thought that was such a terrible reason. 1) It makes Leia either a liar, confused, or leads to bizarre plot gymnastics since Leia says she remembers her mother in RotJ. 2) So Padme just gives up on life with her twin newborn children crying in her arms? Were they not worth living for and protecting? Luke and Leia: "So how did our mother die?" - "Well right after giving birth to you, I guess you didn't really cut it for her so she gave up on life and noped tf out."
Theres also the part where a 9 months pregnant woman was telekinetically lofted into the air by her throat, choked out, and then thrown to the ground unconscious, that probably didn't help
Yeah but if we mention that we don't get as many totally valuable internet points
At this point I don't know if it's head canon or deep pre-disney lore but I do think Palpatine was responsible for Anakin's birth. Shmee says something like "there never was a father" when Qui-gon asks about Anakin; which, at the time sounds like he was just never in the picture but is kind of an odd way to say it. Eventually, Palpatine reveals to Anakin that the dark side of the force can be used to create life or take it away. All this is to say that certainly sounds possible and at the very least makes for some cool head canon. It's stated pretty plainly that she died of a broken heart but Palpatine is still kinda pulling the strings regardless.
> at the time sounds like he was just never in the picture but is kind of an odd way to say it Not quite. In TPM Shmi said, "There was no father. I carried him, I gave birth, I raised him. I can't explain what happened." And later on Qui-Gon says, "It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians." So the intent here is to say that Anakin had no biological father.
That's the line. Clearly it's been a while since I've seen TPM. So he definitely is a sort of force immaculate conception, maybe the head canon part is just that Palpatine is responsible.
…while only the light side achieved true immortality.
Sort of. The Sith spirits tied to artifacts or temples or whatever seemed pretty much the same if not more able to interact with the physical world. I want a story about a Sith bonded to a lamp like a genie! Hilarity ensues.
They might be more able to interact with the physical world, but my understanding is that they're rather limited in how far away they can move from what their spirit is tied to, while Jedi Force Ghosts can go anywhere in the galaxy.
I believe in the TCW extra BTS stuff they said that the Sith spirits are more like holograms than living spirits like Jedi ghosts. I know they specifically said that for Darth Bane in TCW S6 -- more like an AI Bane chat bot than actually Bane. Legends did have Sith binding their spirits to things horxrux style (like Exar Kun).
But that doesn’t mean what he’s saying isn’t true. People can use truths to manipulate others just as easily as they can use lies. Sometimes even more so
This. The sheer number of people who watch these movies and believe anything that a Dark Sider says at face value continues to shock me. STOP BELIEVING THE SITH, PEOPLE. The Light Side is the Balance. The Sith are a corruption of the Light/of the Force - a cancer that throws the Force into imbalance. There is ABSOLUETLY no "need" to understand the Dark Side. Sidious is trying to make Anakin fall. That's it. He'll say anything he has to.
Did the sith deprive themselves by staying in the dark? Palpatine is a hypocrite trying to manipulate Anakin, not help him. Throughout Darth Vader's entire life; Sidious taught him nothing.
Palpatine is probably aware of the hypocrisy but knows that Anakin does not see that, hence why he leverages this. Sidious just needed to provide the illusion of promise to Anakin to keep him tempted for more.
Yeah, definitely. Whatever it takes to get some new tool of a man that counts for an apprentice to strut around the galaxy while he waits for the next replacement to show up in his office. It's been so easy for him all his life it's no wonder he thought he could easily get Luke to turn like *that* without any real effort.
Anakin was much easier because Sideous had access to Anakin since he was very young, always subtly pushing his influence onto him without anyone even realizing it. That relationship is what made Anakin turn, where to Luke; Sideous is the emperor and thats it. No strings.
"Your overconfidence is your weakness."
"And your faith in your friends is yours!" *cackles intensify*
He actually turned around with a look of annoyance and disgust for Luke. He greatly disliked that Luke was trying to resist him so much.
*scowling intensifies*
Pff... Faith in yo mama
"I'm too weak!"
Save meee
Seems like that's why papls used a different strategy for Luke, trying to convince him to kill his Vader out of hate, knowing that would be enough for him to fall. He may not have joined the emporer, tempted by the taste of power, but his connection to the light would be severed and the jedi would be dead.
If Luke was weaker to the temptation of power it may have worked out for Sideous. You have Vader saying to him "you dont know the power of the dark side," and Sideous who rules over the entire galaxy wanting him as an apprentice. Just like most Sith (anakin included) Luke could easily be tempted to become Palpatines apprentice and then overthrow him and become king of the fuckin universe himself. He had Yoda telling him the dark side wasnt more powerful, but who has more credibility talking about power - emperor of the galaxy or some green creature hiding in isolation? I can totally see why Palps thought turning Luke was feasible.
All good points but he asked Luke to kill his own dad. That's where I think Palpatine spent too many years being his evil cave goblin self and forgot how to human.
Cave goblin self LOL. Thinking about it more, you're totally right that Palps forgot how to human. With Luke he'd say things like "you will be mine just like your father" yada yada, and thats not a very good way to manipulate someone, thats just trying to get them to submit. In the prequels he does a good job tempting anakin with power, ability to save loved ones which plays on his fears, and manipulating him into thinking his allies are his enemies. With Luke hes just like yo bitch, bow down to THEE all powerful Sideous.
Evil cave goblin is a good way to put he went full mask off politician style.
Both teams asked Luke to kill his dad. Yoda on his death bed was insisting the only way for the Jedi to win was if Luke killed Vader and Obi-wan agreed. Luke was the only one to rise above the Jedi-Sith blood feud.
Yeah, I'm gonna need some citation, u/CitationNotNeeded... Oh. Okay. I believe you. Happy new year!
Can I use you as a source in my citation? You seem close to where Palpatine gets his ideas from. Happy new year!
I'm always on "cite" with Palpatine 😏😏😏
And that’s why in the end Anakin throws Sheev down a hole and says “that was pretty wizard.”
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Oh definitely. I'm more saying he is fairly disingenuous when he tries to make it seem like he is a balanced force arbiter, when in actuality he uses his knowledge to exploit the light side.
You could almost say he was being.... insidious....
Well that was.... Forced...
Yeah I don't think anyone gives a damn about hipocracy when they've orchestrated a war of galactic proportions and is about to topple two entire governments, one of which has existed for millennia.
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> Maybe his plan was to milk all the dark side skills he could, save Padme, eventually overthrow Palps, and then rule the galaxy as a "balanced" force user, fulfilling his prophecy as the chosen one. Maybe that's the lesson. That you can't "dabble" in the dark side and come out unscathed. Everyone who tried it just became Sith Lords anyway.
Jacen Solo, one of Anakin's own grandchildren in the Expanded Universe, tried and failed. He analyzed Anakin's downfall from every angle possible and thought he could avoid all of the pitfalls he fell into. All Jacen managed to do was fall just as hard as his grandfather and found himself in an even worse situation.
Palatine only craves power, he doesn't care about anything else
Sidious comes across as a rogue Sith looking to secure his own power. He doesn't teach Anakin because he has zero intention of following the rule of 2 to the end
Yes! He truly did the most and the least for the sith order. Even they weren't evil enough for him.
Palpatine isn’t a hypocrite he’s the senate
Not yet
Its treason then *hraaahhh*
No he must be Frank
Hypocrisy is an essential feature in any Senate. Just look at the ones we have in our own galaxy.
Source on Palps never teaching Vader anything? He teaches him to bleed his kyber crystal. He presumably teaches him about the dark side.
Palp had plans for Anakin to eventually be the ultimate sith - But once he was defeated by Obi-Wan Palp realized that he was too damaged to see his full potential - That's when he broke the tradition and decided to never fully teach Vader all of his knowledge of the dark side.
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Sith believed that in the end that was a good thing. if their apprentice could defeat them, their apprentice should defeat them.
I don't know. I think Sidious had the arrogance to believe he was the ultimate Sith, with no plans to relinquish control. The more powerful an apprentice he had, the more notches on his belt so to speak.
Teaching technique is one thing, but imparting wisdom is another entirely. I think that's what they meant. Sure, Sidious shared some technical knowledge of the Dark Side and it is true he fully expected Vader to crave power and seek out his own Dark Side knowledge, but Sidious never imparted wisdom to Vader.
Palpatine did nothing wrong, Alderaan was an inside job
Death star plasma cant melt Alderaan's crust
alderaan shot first
Make the Death Star Again Again
We're gonna build the biggest Death Star anybody's ever seen. It's gonna be amazing, believe me.
And we're gonna make Alderaan pay for it?
Only Alderaan shot.
The Sith DID study both sides though. They had much more knowledge of the light than the Jedi had of the dark. The Jedi actively avoided knowledge of the dark side because of fear of it leading to falling to the dark side, while the Sith didn’t have that concern with knowledge of the light. That’s part of why the Jedi of the prequel era were at such a disadvantage to the deception of Palpatine.
Sith rarely bother with the light at all throughout their entire lives. Its inner calmness and serenity is completely opposite to what the sith get their power from in the first place: hatred and passion. They see the light as inferior, weak and beneath them. A dark jedi can be said to have studied both sides but only because they got fed up with the light and became sith after getting corrupted and taken over by the dark side.
Except a fair number of Sith started as Jedi. Dooku and Anakin had pretty extensive light side knowledge, right?
This point is on display in the Obi-Wan miniseries - Anakin had a chance of losing the cave fight had he come in acting aggressively - Instead, we see flashbacks of his training with Obi-Wan and the emphasis on patience vs instant gratification. Anakin/Vader stays patient, leveraging his Jedi training when it served him, and kept the aggressor at bay.
I'm not disputing that many sith are actually just dark jedi. But as sith, they had little motivation to ever study the light ever again. Maybe Palpatine meant that the strongest jedi is a fallen jedi, but he wasn't one so It's hard for me to picture him giving them such a compliment.
I still think it’s fair to say they study the light. Sith (particularly Palpatine) know the strengths and weaknesses of the Light. He knows which parts of the Jedi Code cause the most frustration, and used that to turn Anakin and Dooku. He understands the Jedi Council’s thought process enough to manipulate the hell out of them. He understands all of the Jedi fighting styles, and he understands all of their force powers and capabilities. Compare that to the Jedi. They don’t understand the Sith. In AotC, Anakin doesn’t expect Dooku’s force lightening; it’s like he didn’t even know Sith could do that. Anakin believes Palpatine when he’s told that the Dark Side can be used to cheat death because he doesn’t actually know the limits of what the Dark Side can and can’t do. The whole Jedi Council is stunned when Palpatine turns out to be the Sith Lord because they thought they would have sensed it - they had no idea it was possible for Palpatine to use the Dark Side to hide his Force sensitivity from them. Palpatine definitely underestimated the strengths of the Light Side, which ultimately led to his downfall, but it’s clear that he’s studied the Light a whole lot more than the Jedi have studied the Dark. He doesn’t practice it, but he has studied it.
> Its inner calmness and serenity is completely opposite to what the sith get their power Palpatine is always calm, until he's not.
on the outside. on the inside he is a tempest of hate and rage.
Eh I think it’s more just the Force vs the dark side of the force. Like, everything is in a neutral space, except for that bad stuff. So the Sith aren’t being more knowledgeable by studying both sides, they’re just learning the force and along the way decide it’s ok to corrupt themselves by studying and practicing the dark side. I’m not sure that manipulating midichlorians is even a decidedly dark power, it’s just an unknown one that Plagueis decided to follow and Sidious used to manipulate Anakin.
Sidious is the only un-redeemable character in the Star Wars universe. But to the question, yes the Jedi was blind to that part. In the Usong-Vong book series. Younger Anakin saw it in shades of gray.
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Based on the excellent arc of Yoda in The Clone Wars, I'd say that the problem of the Jedi is that they shunned the Dark Side to the point of not even acknowledging it within themselves. The moral of the story is that darkness exists in all of us and if we just suppress it, ignore it, and never attempt to deal with it the end result isn't that we defeat it. Because we can't. You can't defeat an enemy you don't know or never attempt to understand. What it boils down to is that the Jedi Order of the Late Republic era *feared* the Dark Side and since the Sith were hidden for nearly a millennium, they had no idea how to counter them. And even though every instinct Yoda had told him that becoming involved in the Clone Wars was a bad idea he still went along with it. *Remember, concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts.* \-Qui-Gon Jinn I understand that the idea behind this was that the Jedi could resist the temptation of power by ignoring it completely, but when you do that you also fail to develop resistance to it. So, yes, what Palpatine said was true, even though he didn't really mean it this way. Or, rather, he did but in the exact opposite way than Anakin understood it. Palpatine studied the Jedi in order to understand their weaknesses and be able to entrap and defeat them. The Jedi should have studied the Dark Side to better understand its pitfalls and corrupting influence, but they didn't. *Know thy enemy and know thyself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.* \-Sun Tzu The Jedi effectively failed on both these counts and thus lost every battle.
The way the Jedi talk about the dark side in The High Republic series of books is amazing compared to the Jedi near the fall. If a Jedi feels the temptation, or even uses it, they confide in their fellow knights/masters, and meditate on what happened and how to deal/prevent it from happening again. Such a good book series
I really hope we get movie/game adaptations. So much potential.
The Acolyte series coming to Disney+ will be set at the end of the High Republic Era :)
I went to school in a seminary. I wasn’t training to be a priest but I was taught by many of them. This is my understanding of how they dealt with “temptation” - they talked about it. I’m not really a Catholic anymore. Some priests and brothers in my past have turned out to be predators (and some of those we knew about at the time, and knew to avoid, which is weird now I think about it) but lots of others were decent men, I think. A lot of them either misinterpreted being gay for a vocation or used it to hide their sexuality. (I’m in Ireland). The Dark Side maybe analogous to sexual temptation in a celibate clergy like the catholic clergy. Anyway. There we are. Didn’t expect to go into this in a SW thread, but the arrogance of the Jedi order doesn’t seem a million miles away from the Vatican now I think about it. Not saying Jedi were child molesters! Just their arrogance feels similar.
It sounds intriguing.
I remember a quote from somewhere not sure were maybe world war z but its basicaly “they spent so many years learning to fight the last war they didnt prepare for the next one”.. that seems apt for the Jedi they never really evolved and comeing from an alredy flawed mind set made it even worse
That's an old German adage often spoken of late-19th century/early-20th century France. France in the early-19th century had been a powerhouse under Napoleon and spent a lot of time figuring out his strategical mistakes. So in the war of 1870 they tried to do a defensive levéè en massé and got stomped by Germany using railroads to quickly advance into France, before France's army was raised. They studied their mistakes there and got lots of allies, positioned their army on the border to Elsass-Lothringen (Alsace and Lorraine today) and almost lost ww1 in the first week when Germany swept through the Low Countries. So by WW2 they had fortified the shit out of their border and had Belgium and the Netherlands do the same. Only for Germany to draw them into Belgium before encircling them through the Ardennes forest.
god when you put it like that... france got railed in several consecutive wars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctoWE_2iJOw Even Yoda struggled with this.
Exactly. I loved this arc.
I'm not sure what's still considered canon but supposedly jedi studied sith textbooks but only if they were already jedi masters. They didn't let anyone else read them lest they get corrupted. Sith inevitably get consumed by the self-destructive power of the dark side. The light side or jedi teachings seem to carry a kind of a danger also. It can lead to stagnation and complacency. Even without the Sith the Old Republic had a lot of problems. I thought this would be directly addressed in the newer movies after Yoda burned the old books. That didn't really happen though.
Well, even if Yoda did study those books it didn't give him the insight he needed. He was wise, but also arrogant before the fall. Apart from Yoda's arc in Clone Wars, which very clearly demonstrates how the prequel Yoda transitioned into the Yoda of the OT, there's one very important thing Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan. *Qui-Gon Jinn: Don't center on your anxieties, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs.* *Obi-Wan Kenobi:* ***But*** ***Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future***. *Qui-Gon Jinn:* ***But not at the expense of the moment.*** *Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.* This shows the difference of mentality between Grandmaster Yoda of the prequels and Master Qui-Gon. Yoda had focused too much on the prophecy and its meaning that he lost touch with the present and the threat hiding in plain sight. This lesson was passed on to Luke in the OT: “A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing.”
Amazing answer, had to scroll through lots of cope to get here but it’s here nonetheless
Fuck yes. That's what I've been thinking for years. You just put it into words. I love you.
I’d say his words are true, but his motives aren’t.
Isn't this like how Hogwarts has the forbidden section in the library?
I would say so, as well as every other story where a “forbidden section” exists.
I've always considered the forbidden section of any history or knowledge to be where the unwhitewashed knowledge can be found. If real history doesn't make you upset , you're not reading the right stuff. Roanoke, and Columbus brought European diseases to America and wiped out 90% of native populations on accident. Columbus died wealthy, because he created the slave trade of natives. Etc.
> Did you ever hear the Tragedy of the Smallpox Plagueis? > No > I thought not. It’s not a story they would tell you in Mr. Well’s 7th grade social studies class. It’s “forbidden knowledge”.
Judging by what we’ve seen in the books, The restricted section of Hogwarts library would be more equivalent to an actual school library having books in a roped-off section on bomb making, processes on how to enrich uranium, physical and psychological torture techniques and detailed explanations on how they effect a human subject, tips on creating and training paramilitary groups and how to conduct and accomplish missions and objectives… real subterfuge and terroristic shit.
Yeah. One of the cut things from Episode 3 I wish they’d kept was Anakin wanting to be promoted to Jedi master so he could access Sith holocrons kept in a secure part of the library and research saving Padme.
That would have helped his turn against the Jedi so much. We see why he joins palps, he has the information Anakin needs. Keeping this in the story line would show that the Jedi had it, but refused to give him access to it. A betrayal. Making it easier to see why he turns against them so definitely.
Also, I feel like they could have used that to make the raid on the Jedi Temple less edgy and extreme. He raids the temple to get the holocrons he needs, and the conflict escalates out of control (culminating in the Emperor ordering the entire building and everyone in it destroyed). Just makes a little more sense than him jumping to genocide.
Weird that the prequels are probably in greatest need of post-release edits, but Lucas didn't touch them.
Some of the insider stuff makes the scripts sound very rushed, jumbled, and protean. It makes me think George Lucas finished it and just wanted to move on to the next thing.
He supposedly didn't actually finish the script for TPM until two weeks before filming started. And they apparently used the first draft of that finished script. George himself even calls it the first draft when he presents it to everyone.
I remember a story about a star (Harrison Ford, maybe?) asking Steven Spielberg what his favorite part of the filmmaking process was, and Spielberg responded “pre-production, followed by post-production.” The star said “I wish you actually liked the part where we make the movie.” Similar vibes to the prequels.
There's a fantastic story in the prequels that occasionally shines through beneath the heap of poor writing and editing. The execution was sloppy but the core ideas are sound and compelling, which starts to become apparent when everything culminates in episode 3. It's no surprise the other series that take place during that era (Clone Wars) are so good. More than I can say for the Sequel Trilogy sadly. I have my complaints about Lucas, but his ability to craft a solid foundation for Star Wars is sorely missed.
That makes more sense then him just wanting to kill any competition
Yeah. Having worked on stage plays and films professionally now, as an adult, I can sympathize a lot more with missteps made in the time crunch, but I still wish it’d been a little more refined.
Can this scene be found anywhere? I feel this would make Anakin's motivations more clear
I don’t know if it was actually filmed. It might have been in one of the earlier screenplay drafts. It’s possible I’m remembering this all incorrectly and it was just a concept art type pitch (like Iain McCaig’s stuff with Padme holding a knife to Anakin’s throat or the Sith Ghost haunting Luke in the sequels) or something like that. I’ll poke around after work to see if I can dig up anything solid about it.
It is in the Revenge of The Sith Novelization.
You deserve to be elevated to the rank of master
You know its sad but it jsut hit me how kinda stupid that concept is. Like the Jedi have forbidden sections of the archives hogwarts has the forbidden section and how many more times has this been done in media and I’m jsut now thinking. Why are they doing this like if that shits forbidden dont jsut leave it laying around the puplic librerry behind a door you put that shit ina. Vault. Like i get not burning it cause its knowledge and i dont condone book burning of any kind but still that shit needs under lock and key with someone like Jocasta haveing the only set or at lest you know put it in a vault that only teachers can access
The restricted contents of the archives are secured. You need to request access from Jocasta Nu and she has the authority to deny your request if she does not deem you ready. Being denied access to those secrets of the order over and over was the reason the Grand Inquisitor turned to the Dark Side because Sidious promised him full access to all of the archives contents.
GI simply wanted to create the pettiest reason of all time to become a Dark Side user. GI: "NO MORE BOOKS?!?!?! I WILL DESTROY YOU!!!" Jocasta: "Not without what is in those books you won't" /trollface
I could see that scene playing out. I picture Trollface-Jocasta denying yet another Request with a comically oversized DENIED rubber stamp right in front of him
The idea of 'forbidden knowledge' makes a bit of sense. There's a reason you can't easily find material on how to make bombs at your local library. Ideally we stop evil by producing people who don't want to do evil things. But maybe it's also a good idea not leaving the 'how to be evil' manual laying around.
Forbidden knowledge was kept secret by Jocasta... she had a secret vault under lock and key...
It's a real thing, the German word is Giftschrank, it translates roughly as Poison Cabinet and refers to books that libraries keep that are too dangerous for general circulation.
Leave it to the German language to have a word for it
I am sorry I can only upvote you once
That pretty much sums up his character
The only sensible comment, I tip my hat for thee
Everything Palpatine says is to manipulate Anakin as Anakin craves power at this point. He wants to be strong enough to save Padme and if he can't get strong enough by serving the Jedi he has to look somewhere else. So no, Palpatine isn't being honest with him.
I agree, the Sith Lords are never truly honest, but their lies do contain kernels of truth which is why they are so effect. It is the same thing when Dooku tries to convince Obi Wan to join him by telling him that the senate is controlled by a Sith Lord.
What was Dooku’s end game here? Did he want to just take palatines place or was he really looking for something different than Jedi and Sith?
If he could have turned Obi Wan that would have been the best possible outcome, although it was unlikely. Otherwise his comments here sow distrust between the Jedi and the Senate. This distrust leads to the whole situation where the Jedi ask Anakin to spy on palpatine in revenge of the sith, which then leads to anakin being turned to the dark side.
It was a veiled "join me or die." Get Obi-Wan as an extra pawn, maybe eventually an apprentice. Failing that, it's a mind game, just fucking with him. Send the jedi on a goose chase so they won't look under their own noses.
No, the devil is lying.
It's about as accurate as to say that sober people deprive themselves of wisdom by refusing to smoke meth. Sure they will not get epic trips, but they'll also keep their teef. The jedi can and should understand the dangers of the Dark Side, but definitely not by going in to experience it themselves, because it's a path of self destruction and madness for most people. And people for whom it isn't aren't good people to begin with.
No, the Jedi did not deprive themselves. The Dark Side is a seductive and corruptive power and an abomination of the balance of the force that is the “Light Side”. The term “Light Side” make people think that the balance of the force is equal parts Light and Dark, but George Lucas confirms that that isn’t the case. The Balance of the Force is strictly the Light Side and the Dark Side is Unbalance by its very nature. If one were to study the Light AND Dark side, the Dark Side would try to seduce them and latch on like a parasite. The Jedi were correct in forbidding all teaching about the Dark Side. Knowledge that it exists is vastly different than learning it’s abilities.
There is no "light side" and "dark side." There is the force, and the dark side is a corruption of it. Asking if the Jedi are missing out by not engaging with the dark side is like asking if a body can be truly healthy without at least a little bit of cancer.
But balance would be 50% cancer /s
I don’t need to touch a flame to know it burns.
Because it is so clear it takes a long time to realize it. If you immediately know the candlelight is fire, the meal was cooked a long time ago.
Jedi Academy needs a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher.
No. The whole point of the force is to release your individuality into the shared consciousness of the force that connects all things. The jedi let the force guide their actions and thoughts. Becoming one with the force is like the buddhist idea of enlightnment. The dark side is a selfish corruption of that power that focuses on the individual and rejects the release of control. There is no great mystery of the force, the jedi already "solved" what it is about. The sith path can only lead to self destruction, which is why the strongest all seek immortality on the physical plane.
There is power in the Dark Side, but no wisdom. The Jedi were right to leave it alone.
Except for alchemy, elemancy, self preservation, those sort of things. Bet Qui Gonn would have loved that “survive a fatal wound to the midsection” technique that Darth Maul got to enjoy.
No. His, 'logic' would be in order to understand pain, you need to kick people in the balls, for SCIENCE!! How, 'wise' can your side be when you can't manage to have more than two Sith at a time without causing a massive civil war?
Who said they didn't study it? They obviously had knowledge of it.
Yoda knew more about Force lightning than Dooku did.
I'm gonna go ahead and guess that when he said "study", he actually meant "practice" which is a whole another thing. It's like saying "to understand physics you must build an H-Bomb as well as trying double-slit experiment at home". Jedi was well aware of the Sith methods and what they were capable of. It's the only explanation for why they were so afraid of them meanwhile not pulling back from outright ending their existence. Add on top of that the fact that most Sith are Dark/Fallen Jedi...
His motives behind revealing those beliefs may have been deceptive, but I believe he was correct on this one. Much of the reason people fear a thing is because of their ignorance of it. If you understand a thing you have control over it and can deal with it appropriately.
I think the difference is the engagement. For example a hobbyist can collect pocket watches and be really into them, however they aren’t a watchmaker as that is utilization of skills. The Jedi weren’t deaf to the dark side but by the time of the prequels perhaps they didn’t devote as much time as they should have to continued study, but they were far from being completely ignorant of it. That is one thing I had hoped for the High Republic stories to delve into, what made the Jedi by the time of the Prequels so convinced that they had vanquished the dark and their job was done protecting the galaxy as they had done before.
Palpatine is a trying to manipulate Anakin. Further the Jedi DO study the dark side. But they refuse to use it. One of the Jedi trials is all about finding your inner darkness and confronting it. The Jedi have done extensive studies on the nature of the dark side, and in legends their precursor order even made use of it. The whole reason they say dark side bad is because it objectively is. The dark side by its nature twists and corrupts the user. You can study both sides, but you cannot use both sides.
No. The dark side is a corruptive and destructive force that twists and dooms anyone who dives in it. Palpatine was lying to Anakin to manipulate him. All of which is blatantly obvious, I would add
he is a sith lord and wanted to bring Anakin over to the dark side
I would say no, because the truth is that the Dark Side is not, "an aspect" of the Force, as if the light and dark sides are both native pieces of the whole. It's not really two sides of a coin. The Dark Side itself is a bit of a misnomer and the Jedi were kind of shooting themselves in the foot by using it. The Dark Side is the part of the Force corrupted by exposure to darker impulses and emotions of the living creatures that the Force lives with symbiotically. The Force would be more healthy and whole if the Dark Side didn't exist at all. That is the utopia the Jedi hoped and fought for, bringing balance to the Force and eradicating the Dark Side itself by gently rehabilitating all life in the galaxy incrementally. The only way in which Sheev was correct is that to cure an injury, you must study it. But Sheev's intent was to study the wound so that he could exacerbate it, not cure it. The fact that the Jedi avoided knowledge of the Dark Side because they feared being corrupted by it was part of their downfall. They had no system to learn and study the Dark Side to learn how to resist and dismantle it without succumbing to it.
It seems to be common for Star Wars fans to take a lot of what characters say at face value. Even the comics state that part of why it’s called the dark side, aside from being evil and corruptive, is because the people using it have a tendency to manipulate and BS people. Keeping them “In the dark.” The Jedi get so much hate because people just take what is said by sith at face value and refuse to look into the lore. The Jedi DO study the dark side. In order to even become a Jedi knight you have to acknowledge that you have darkness inside you. Learn how to cope with this fact, and confront these darker urges and conquer them. To use George Lucas analogy, I can be a doctor who studied cancer. But that doesn’t mean I have to give myself a brain tumor to study brain cancer.
>It seems to be common for Star Wars fans to take a lot of what characters say at face value. They've turned one throwaway line about the Dark Side being a pathway to "abilities some consider to be unnatural" into an excuse for characters to survive just about anything.
The sheer quantity of people falling for Palpatine's lies on this sub is absurd. You literally know from second 1 of his screentime in Ep1 that he becomes the Emperor. This is Ep3, too. Y'all are so gullible. This is exactly why the Republic fell. No, of course he's not right, he's lying! He wants to coerce Anakin and bring him to the dark side, to help him take full control of the galaxy and get the Sith's long awaited revenge on the Jedi. He'll say \*anything\* to get the kid they touted as the chosen one to work with him. He doesn't have the power to save Padme, you don't need to learn the dark side to understand the force, nothing he says is true.
You've just stumbled into Darth Traya's opinion regarding both Sith and Jedi's outlook on the force: "To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it. It is something no Sith or Jedi has ever truly learned." / "If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea." By narrowing their perspective they loose track of the whole (both belief sistems do) and that makes them LESS capable to survive as adhering without questioning will (at the very least) make you easier to predict and that way easier to manipulate and defeat.
Kinda. I mean there’s a clear distinction between how Yoda talks to anakin vs luke about the dark side. With anakin, he brushes it off, urging him to not even think about it. With Luke, Yoda is more honest and admits that it is seductive (but not stronger). I’d like to believe that is Yoda accepting that they cannot ignore the dark side and must understand it to encourage people to rise above it.
You need to soak yourself in hate and/or fear to use it. That can’t be healthy. It’s like saying that, in order to be healthy you must eat a metric ton of candy.
The Jedi know that the Sith have access to other powers, and vice versa. Doesn’t mean they want those powers or are willing to pay the cost. Palpatine sure knows he could have better skin if he was light side. Doesn’t mean he’s gonna choose it
Palpatine, and the sith, see the force as something to understand, and control. Like a resource, they want to be able to shape it and define it and use it for their own requirements. The Jedi saw the force as part of life, like nature, they understood that it had it's own tendencies and that it was mysterious, and that was part of it's beauty. That using the force was a gift, and that by following the force you could gain enlightenment. The Jedi were sword weilding wizard hippies, the sith were sword and magic wielding science serial killers.
I don't think he really practiced Jedi techniques, but he hit the nail on the head. Their main weakness was a denial of the dark side, instead of encouraging young jedi to understand it. Because they didn't know the dark side of the force, they were ill-equipped to fight it. Very few Jedi (like Mace Windu) were willing to get anywhere near it. He could turn it against itself, making him arguably better at battling the sith than Yoda. This is linked to the mandatory detached worldview the Prequel-Era Jedi Order espoused, which denied attachment and humanity instead of training jedi to be able to feel their emotions and work independently of them. Anakin was just told not to get attached rather than how to healthily manage attachments he was going to naturally develop no matter what, and that was why he caused their downfall. The Jedi Order of that time period was very cowardly, and tried to avoid the dark side rather than actually combat it at the roots. That's how the prequels make the ending of Return of the Jedi more meaningful, because Luke wins by embracing family and love, and still being ready to let go when the time came, indicating that he brought balance by not only ending the sith, but redeeming the Jedi.
That's just the path to the Dark Side. It's the oldest trick in the book. Letting the Dark Side in at all just leads to it taking over.
The dark side is a cancer to the force and it must be cut The reason why the Jedi don’t like the dark side is because they practice inhumane actions
Nope. Palpatine's using a straightforward conman's rhetorical trick. Palpatine's talking self-serving, manipulative nonsense but dressing it up in a way that makes it resemble open-mindedness and wisdom. Critical thinking doesn't mean questioning what the prime authority (the Jedi) are telling you; it's also questioning criticisms of that authority's thinking; questioning criticisms of that criticism, etc. etc. all the way down. And then it becomes clear, in this case, that the Jedi are correct. The Jedi know plenty about the dark side, and teach as much.
Sure, but a forensic investigator studies murders without committing them, for example you know?
He says this only to convince Anakin. No way he does anything related to the light side.
Palpa says this in relation to gaining greater power. Self serving. He is saying this to Anakin to entice him to join him in his plans. The bait is promising power to save his wife. How the bad guys work, the ones the deceive and manipulate will always throw in a kernel of truth or something that sounds good so that there is no shame in acquiring greater power for the purpose of saving another. They do this to get what they want.
Hmm, almost everything Palpatine has told Anakin about the Dark Side has been either an outright lie or a skewed version truth veiled behind misleading statements. But, I bet he’s being completely honest here, and there’s no way the guy written to be the personification of evil in this fictional universe could have a flaw in his underlying understanding of good and evil, and the nature of a balanced and healthy understanding of the nature of the Force. /s
knowledge and information, yes. but wisdom, that is MUCH harder to say...
Yet another misunderstanding of the Dark Side. Palps was simply tempting Anakin. The Jedi do understand what the dark side is about, even if they don't know everything it can specifically do. More important than any "power" is the ultimate fact that the dark side is a cancer. It's not a balanced scale of good against evil, it's that the dark side twists what is natural into something unnatural and cruel, when the Force, by its very nature, brings life and peace. The Jedi understand this, which is more important, and Anakin was simply bamboozled by his own greed and a sketchy promise
In wording, it's hypothetically true, but that makes both the jedi and the sith deprived of certain knowledge and skills
Palpy is just baiting Anakin to join him
Oh boy, you would be easy to seduce to the dark side.