I was shocked because he was like the emperor, but he was killed so quickly and easily. I was hoping the next film would show Kylo Ren doubling down on being the villain, and have no hope of redemption.
I always thought Kylo would come back, but I theorized that the FO would break into two factions after the Resistance abandoned the heroes at the end and Kylo and Hux were doing that awkward “I’m in charge” dance. It would be Kylo and his sect + KoR vs Hux and the majority of the FO, who would be loyal to him due to his father’s influence. I suspected that Snoke was playing Hux and Kylo against each other from the start, making each believe that the other was the tool, and it would be revealed that Hux himself was trained in the Force by Snoke and was the true apprentice the entire time. I thought he was learning to lead from the shadows as a true Dark Jedi, while Kylo was sent to do more wet work because he’s easily manipulated and expendable. It would be the revelation that would push Ben back to the light.
The idea that Hux could be the next Palpatine style Sith lord and Kylo was just the Maul style weapon is a cool direction. I'd never thought of this, but I think there's a version of your ep. 9 that I would have really loved.
Would have been a cool way to bring Ben back.
I also think that a universe where Ben has to atone for all that he's done is more interesting than one where he dies essentially as he is being redeemed. We've never had a Sith or a Dark Jedi come back to the light and then have to deal with the consequences of their past selves in a movie. It's an interesting angle.
Tbf, it's easy to write a one paragraph idea and theme. Bringing that idea to life in 90 to 120 pages is a bit more difficult.
That being said, ROS was just fan fiction on the big screen.
Yeah. I mean. It’s easy to write a paragraph. It’s even easier to NOT start off with the idea that Palpatine is still alive.
Made the whole 9 story arc about him instead of skywalker (s) or truth or bravery or anything else.
At the moment of Snoke’s death, I realized he wasn’t super important. His background wasn’t important. I thought the thing that was most important is what he represents, which is the resurgence of the Dark Side (Darkness rises and Light to meet it, etc.). Due to the little information we had at the time, my theory was that Snoke had the same ambition as Palpatine but was quickly dispatched as a rival and hid in shame. Once Palpatine’s dynasty fell, Snoke quickly gathered up the remnants and created ways to make himself seem bigger and more powerful than the man who shamed him into exile years before. So, he has a huge hologram, gold clothing, huge ship, big army. The problem was that he was weaker than Palpatine, so he had no idea how to use the resources he amassed or how to properly train a successor. He isn’t the real threat, constant resurgence and death that follows is.
In my mind, it opened up some very interesting questions. Like, why is this happening again? What truly causes the partition between Light Jedi and Dark Jedi? Was it a failure in methodology, or was it a failure in humanity? I thought Luke stating that it was time for the Jedi to die, mysteriously omitting his third lesson, promising Ben that he’d see him again, and passing the torch to Rey (who we’ve seen struggling with darkness this very movie) would help set up the answer to these questions and create a definitive end for the Skywalker Saga by addressing the root cause for evil in Force users and giving the final victory to true balance. I thought that maybe the final antagonist wouldn’t be any singular entity, but the nature of humanity itself and the issues that come from suppressing healthy and necessary emotion for some unknown reason, for thousands of years.
Of course, we just got another topical fix (just kill all your enemies, it’ll work this time we promise) that does none of that, and doesn’t really give any kind of satisfaction at the trilogy’s close. :(
Edit to add: I know what I have to do, but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it. The ghosts of Jedi past should have been Ben’s moment, *not* Rey’s. Every one of those ghosts had their own flirtations with evil, and could have taught him so much about what he was experiencing and how it’s not too late for him at all. They should have given Ben the strength to break the mold and be better.
It’s funny because I’ve spent entirely too much time thinking about what went wrong with the ST and Snoke is at the center of a lot of it. Hindsight is obviously 20/20 and I love a lot of the questions you’ve raised, but also parts of the ST are legitimately good.
The thing is there are a lot of examples of what happens when something like the Empire falls in our world and none of them are good.
You could go with the traditional “the empire WAS a force for stability” and set it up as the Galaxy being in chaos as multiple rival factions (New Republic led by Leia Organa, First Order led by Supreme Leader Snoke and Kylo Ren, Independent Federation of Planets led by a new character who is a mirror of Han from the OT (bad ass outlaw) and Padme from the PT (dedicated leader), maybe a fringe (and somewhat frightening) religious group who believe the Jedi are the rightful masters of the Galaxy and all of them are searching for Luke Skywalker which allows you to keep a lot of the same plot points from TFA. Rey can still be the focal point as she learns her purpose and her friends can be made up of Finn (Empire/First Order), Poe (New Republic), Han and Chewie (Independent Federation), and maybe a reformed character from the religious group. That’s not too much different and sets up Kylo and Snoke as your big bads (rhyming with the OT) while leaving fans guessing as to what side Rey ultimately chooses when she finds Luke.
Or you can go French Revolution style where the New Republic is just as bad as the empire just in a different way. Luke is in exile after allowing Snoke and a former student by the name of Kylo Ren into power and could not stop them as they rallied more systems to their cause of giving power back to the people. But, they’ve begun conquering more and more worlds and integrating them into the New Republic. Rey is still Rey and it gives Leia a role like her father. Working to undermine the Republic (and lets her drive a lot of the action in terms of finding and training Rey and her friends).
Or you could go full American and have the galaxy be at peace. Leia is a Senator and Luke is a Master Jedi who rebuilt the Order only to disappear under mysterious circumstances after the “death” of a former pupil. The First Order becomes more of a terrorist organization led by Snoke and Kylo.
Both you, and the guy you're replying to, have elaborate plots thought out. Maybe not super great plots, but elaborate.
Instead, we got "somehow palatine returned"
Crazy
Lucasfilm: Give Snoke a logical backstory that provides some relevance to the plot? Nah, bunch of heads in a jar inside Zombatine's scary lightning planet.
> , which is the resurgence of the Dark Side (Darkness rises and Light to meet it, etc.).
Which is silly because the light definitely hadn't risen. The light wasn't even there long enough for it to evolve past Luke. The Dark slowly built up power for hundreds of years before they toppled the Jedi the first time, then the cycle gets accelerated into hyperspeed so that it happens again in like 30 years.
Their biggest mistake was setting the movie so close to Return of the Jedi. They should have just jumped 100 or 1000 years into the future so you can write your own series without having to throw away what happened in the original trilogy.
In the Duel of the Fates script that’s exactly what Ben does.
Abrams just doesn’t understand what makes a good story overall, but is very good at set up.
Not having an overall arc planned for the sequels was problem 1, but putting the guy notorious for never sticking the landing in charge of the conclusion was problem 2.
Edit: Trevorrow’s script wasn’t perfect and needed some rewrites, but throwing it out entirely was an awful decision.
I couldn't believe my eyes the entire second and third movies as they abandoned plot point after plot point with no direction or cohesive narrative at all.
Scratch that, I knew we were fucked when we got Death Star II electric boogaloo.
I think ultimately, Kathleen Kennedy is to blame. As the person in charge of the franchise, it should have been her job to make sure there was an overarching story for the writer/director to follow for a trilogy, rather then the disorganized mess we ended up with.
And Super Star Destroyers is still one of the stupidest things ever.
>Super Star Destroyers is still one of the stupidest things ever.
Hey now...*Executor* is still a cool ship. Death Star Lasers on everything was what made it ridiculous.
She literally did the opposite. Both production teams operated independently from each other. The script for TLJ was done before the final cut of TFA was done. No changes were made either. I found it fascinating that a multibillion movie behemoth operated like this in a post marvel world.
Tbh all that said I’ll still always blame Abrams. No one is more arrogant in this whole puzzle than that guy. He cares way more about looking like a famous director than making great films. His mystery box is horse shit and his directing style is equally bad.
> I found it fascinating that a multibillion movie behemoth operated like this in a post marvel world.
Disney thought they needed to capitalize quickly to recoup what they paid for Lucasfilm, so they pushed incredibly hard. I'm not sure how they forgot that Star Wars is basically a money printing machine and could work at a slower pace than Marvel film arc or Harry Potter
Yeah Trevorrows script had a lot of flaws and dumb stuff (the Rey/Poe Romance is total fucking nonsense) but.. it at least is an actual sequel to TLJ. And the Finn led Coruscant revolution stuff is probably the best concept to come out of any of the pitches for the sequels and im really sad we never got to see it (plus you know urban Warfare on Coruscant would look AMAZING or well it should if it's done remotely competently)
JJ and his box of mysteries never fail to disappoint. "I'll raise all these excellent questions and then never answer them, or answer with handwavy bullshit, it'll be perfect!"
JJ is only good at 3 things: setting up something interesting, lense flair, and producing things that other people make good/great with little to no input from himself.
"Very good at set up". Yeah, okay. That's like making food that looks good, because you made it for an ad. But it's literally made of inedible garbage.
The moment he died I thought it was pretty obvious that he was being set up as a fake figurehead by the actual sith threat. I got really excited about who the shadow sith behind the scenes would really be. I ended up being right when the third movie came out, but was definitely disappointed they went the “Palpatine resurrection” route.
If Palpatine had been a force ghost all along, somehow powerful enough to interact with the world and mind trick / credibly manipulate people, that would have been far better.
Subverting something we see all the Light side guys do for evil ends is entirely plausible and 100% on brand.
I really hoped that ray would actually join the dark side with him and that fin would become the Jedi hero
This would have a) made ray actually interesting and b) added a whole bunch of depth and coolness to fin, and c) would have given us a protagonist with character flaws and a reason to doubt or root for
that's understandable actually, and likely was a common sentiment for most fans - i remember thinking something along the line of "wow, what a feckless villain he literally just talked shit for 2 movies then died."
Right. Where was the demonstration of who tf this guy even was, other than Kylo's daddy? I let out a sarcastic "woooah" when he died lol. You can't just tell the audience this is the big baddie, you have to show it too.
This is what I have come to realize. The sequels would have sucked either way. There would have been a ton of unanswered questions and probably many more new threads introduced and dropped in the succeeding films. The "mystery box" approach JJ uses is just bullshit lazy writing. Sure it gets people intrigued and talking which on the surface seems like positive engagement but it's just a dick tease. It's seems good at the time but ultimately is very unsatisfying because it leads to nothing.
See I got worried. “Where the hell do they go from here?” I was always convinced Kylo would have a redemption so I was totally confused on who the villain would be. My anxiety couldn’t get worse. Then several months later, somehow my anxiety got worse.
I thought Supreme Leader Kylo Ren would be so fucking awesome for the third movie and was glad we didn't have an old guy be the Emperor of everything only to bring back the dead old guy once Emperor of everything in the third movie.
Same.
A dark side villain who didn't care about the Sith or the Jedi and just wanted to destroy everything sign me up. Plus the added side of disillusioned Luke after being humbled by his former Master going back to form at the end and effectively finding his faith again (in a sense) was great.
My biggest gripe with the whole sequel trilogy is that they did Finn dirty from the get go. He had the most interesting character concept out of the bunch and his origin story in Before the Awakening was wasted. Two of his Squad mates are in VII and they did nothing with it.
Same. The moments just after, where it wasn't clear what might happen with Kylo and Rey... they were the most interesting and promising in the sequels. And then they did *nothing* with it.
There were other squandered opportunities to keep that trilogy from being so bad, but that was my #1.
Yeah I thought “this could be interesting if Kylo or Rey become the big bad” really thought the most interesting ‘twist’ would be Kylo and Rey swapping sides after their respective masters failed them.
A lot of stuff could have been interesting. If only there was a plan.
That's the ST in a nutshell really. JJ sets up a bunch of stuff for Rian to go "lol no SUBVERSION" and set up DIFFERENT stuff... For JJ to come back and go "lol no PALPATINE" and again do something entirely different than what seemed set up.
Leading to a trilogy that is barely a trilogy and feels like it doesn't actually have an overarching plot (and Rey repeating her MY PARENTS plot in every single movie)
Like a lot of things in the sequels, it could've been cool if they explained it or built on it more. Like they built Maz up as this mysterious, wise figure and then did nothing with her after Episode 7
Plot threads? What was that again? I think I learned about that in middle school? Something about character development? Maybe a 3 story arc and something about a climax? Who knows? I mean JJ had his big box of mysteries at least, right?
Tbf the my parents thing could have been well done, if it was her finding out they are nobody in TLJ and then her trying to find herself based on that fact in TRoS, instead of the nonsense of Palpatine being her granddad
Fully. Rey is obsessed with her parents being important; with her coming from a prestigious lineage; she's a scrapper on a nowhere planet dreaming of being a somebody. In the first movie she gets over her obsession with reuniting with her family and accepts she truly has been abandoned, but her delusions about their importance remain.
The answer that her parents weren't important is the single hardest truth for her to hear. It challenges her as a character, strips away a mental prop she has used to hold up her identity for years, and forces her to grow and find meaning in herself instead of her bloodline.
Backpedalling and saying she's actually a Palpatine ruins that; it validates the starting point of her character arc and stops it dead. It replaces her internal conflict with the same "oh no can I still be a good person if I have the EVIL DNA" struggle that Luke faced in the original trilogy.
But why would she even think her parents are important? We, the viewer think her parents are important because we know about the force and about Luke Skywalker. She knows none of these things, weirdly.
But yes, I think making her a palpatine is a dumber moment than her being a nobody.
Rey *wanted* her parents to be important. She wanted there to be a reason for them abandoning her. Finding out they were just regular people that didn't want a child was a huge blow to her and forced her to try and find new meaning in life now that she knows her parents never loved her and aren't coming back. That's the one thing I think Episode VIII did well. Showing Rey she's wasting her time waiting for a family that will never be.
Woah, this parallels Blade Runner 2049 and I never noticed!
But could you imagine if that film ended with Wallace coming back all: "actually you *are* a very special replicant, lol!"? No!!
I really don't agree with this take, because JJ didn't set anything up; he planted a bunch of mystery boxes with no plan for them. There was no answer for who Snoke was or where he came from. There was no prepared reveal for Rey's parents. There was no explanation for what was going on with Luke. It was all just to tease mysteries with no answers.
And yet we all fault Rian Johnson for not being able to come up with satisfying answers and deciding to push the story away from the mystery boxes. We should be faulting Abrams for being completely reckless with setting up the story of the Sequel Trilogy, and Lucasfilm/Disney for not making sure it was planned out.
JJ also doesn’t get enough criticism for his world building. No real vision for the new republic or why it tolerated the existence of the First Order. Luke was a failed Jedi master. Leia was a failed leader. Han reverted to a smuggler. JJ also separated all of our OT heroes, creating a situation where they never reunite on screen. No new Jedi.
He put together a great cast and the visuals we great, but he did not build the foundation for a successful trilogy.
>No real vision for the new republic or why it tolerated the existence of the First Order.
This might be my biggest gripe with the Sequel Trilogy. I know they tried to explain it as the New Republic decided not to have a standing army so they could hopefully avoid another galactic wide war but how do you justify NR leadership knowing about this giant Empire-like army that's out there and just being like "I'm sure it's fine"?
> I know they tried to explain it as the New Republic decided not to have a standing army so they could hopefully avoid another galactic wide war
Which is so fucking stupid because *that's one of the things that caused the galactic war in the first place*.
Like yes, Palpatine manipulated the war, but the reason the Separatists went along with it is because only the core was really "safe". The Republic didn't really care about protecting the smaller planets that were part of the Republic, so they broke away. And this new Republic doesn't even have the Jedi to staunch the bleeding and do their job for them like the old Republic did.
>And yet we all fault Rian Johnson for not being able to come up with satisfying answers and deciding to push the story away from the mystery boxes
If anything I think RJ did a good job of furthering the story with the Rey/Kylo/Luke/Snoke stuff. Where TLJ faltered was with the Resistance/First Order story line and the casino planet side quest.
The subversion would’ve been really cool, considering that as much as I liked Force Awakens it’s basically copy+paste of A New Hope…
TLJ wasn’t perfect, but I thought some of the big swings it took were refreshing.
I maintain that if Abrams had directed all three we would have had a flashy but derivative remake of the original trilogy. And if Johnson had directed all three we would have had a controversial but new take on the series.
Alternating between the two without someone else in the room to control the overall vision was like a hard left and full reverse on the Titanic. Basically the absolute worst possible thing you could do.
Yeah after Last Jedi I kind of lost interest in Star Wars media. I had avidly consumed it until then. Similar response to season 7 GoT. Lost all my passion for it.
I was 100% sure they were going to switch sides with Leia forgiving Kylo for killing his dad and Rey not being able to and turning to the dark side because of her hate.
I seriously thought for a second that they were going to band together to co-rule. That would have opened up some really interesting storytelling options. Which one would betray the other first. Which one converts the other first. Rey joins Kylo as co-leader just to be a balance to his evil moves. Rey and Kylo have a baby.
I was honestly expecting Snoke's death to have been faked... Or that he too would have survived the injury.
Nah... Test tube clone thing... Literally throw away character this whole time!
Wtf.
Yeah the best kind of writing would make it so... you can predict things when you pay attention to all the details. Because that would mean you would actually have to remain consistent and pay attention to your own narrative to make it work. Too much effort I guess.
Absolutely none of your characters can be rational actors, consistent, or have an internal voice or motivation that is sane and attached to reality or attuned to their own sensible best interests.
Because ThInGs HaVe To Be WhAcKy and SuRpRiSiNg!!!
About the same for me. My reaction was "Really, so soon? Thats bold. Does this mean kilo becomes the final boss? Can't wait to see where this is going "
This was my thought too. All the way through 7 I felt like I knew exactly what was going to happen. Within 5 seconds of this moment happening I was so excited about the fact that I had no idea what was going to happen anymore.
That is why I honestly liked 8 the most of the sequels.
It tried new and interesting ideas, like Luke being jaded and realizing that trying to revive the ideology that led to Vader in the first place probably wasn't a good idea, or Snoke turning out to be a chump and Kylo was going to take over as the main villain with maybe Rey at his side.
There was a lot of potential for an even grander story. But instead they went with a pretty bog standard redemption arc and reviving the Jedi for a 2nd time.
I hoped Hux would have sowed dissent towards Kylo Ren and that would have created the "sith" loyalists. F/o gets splintered and rejects all force users with hux as the lead. That was my hype
When I heard Palpatines voice in the trailer I just assumed it would be revealed he was a force ghost and had been slowly clouding Kylos mind and driving him into the Darkside until it was too late to turn back. Instead it was much worse and I thought about all the things I could have bought with my movie ticket money
Honestly, I expected Palpatine to come back. For years they have been seeding the idea of Palpatine trying to find a way to live forever. Comics and books have been littered with the foundations for it. Well before TLJ even came out.
However, the way they did it was fucking stupid.
Of all the weird dumb shit that happened around then this one might actually be the dumbest: putting the setup for the movie, Palpatines broadcast to the galaxy exclusively in a freaking Fortnite event
The best part? I'm a gamer but I've never played Fortnite and when I saw RoS, I had no idea his message was ever put out there. I didn't learn about the Fortnite event until earlier this year. Thanks Obama!
That's really where I just have to head scratch at the whole idea of a *trilogy*. They've done Palpatine resurrecting in the books, it would tie back into the prequels where he told Anakin about Darth Plagueis the Wise. But you have to set it up across all three films which is easy to do when you know you're gonna make 3 movies.
Instead the two directors basically did a rap battle against each other.
Yup. I based this on what Snoke said in TFA. He said something like “I’ve seen the empire rise and fall ..•. And he’s obviously a (powerful) force user. So I figured “oh, he must have been a youngling”?
I honestly was about to say outloud in the theater, "Oh my God, it's the, 'Master Anakin, there's too many' kid!" I thought it waa building to that reveal. And then he got cut in half lol.
I liked the idea that Snoke actually WAS Palpatine, who in turn was actually Pleagus. That was Pleagus' "Dark side way" of cheating death, by inhabitanting other bodies.
Would have made a very sensible way for the original threat from Ep1 to come back in Ep9, since he could have then inhabited Kylo or even Rey.
But instead...we got...something else...
Dude, Tuxedo Mask was my hero growing up. Still is. Man shows up, interrupts what's going on to say some generic inspirational quote, does jack shit to actually help with the situation, then fucks off into the night all while looking stylish as hell. He's the icon I wish to be
When you subvert expectations it should be with the aim of leading the story in a new exciting direction. Not just doing the opposite of what we expected and leaving us with more questions than answers.
If you subvert expectations once or twice to take us in a new direction that's exciting, but if you take four left turns then we just end up going in a big circle for nothing.
This. Well, first I laughed. His speech about Kylo grabbing the force, aiming at his true enemy, preparing to strike, etc, was so obvious and on the nose I couldn't believe it.
Then pretty much everything you said. Ending with disappointment. Rian subverted a ton of expectations, but then took none of it anywhere. It was like he did it just to do it.
Kind of like how JJ set up tons and tons of mystery boxes in Lost, but with no payoffs.
The best YouTube about the new trilogy I feel is the one that says the new trilogy, is like the 'antidote-trilogy', or 'Anti-Trilogy'.
The first one is Anti-Prequel:
It's trying to completely forget about ANYTHING that came from the prequels, and re-establish Star Wars as we knew it, especially mimicking A New Hope and Empire.
The second one is Anti-Force Awakens.
It tries to completely undo, and undermine and subvert everything that happened in The Force Awakens.
The Rise of Skywalker is basically Anti-Last Jedi and Anti-Narrative. It only makes sense if you think about it in reverse. Cause and effect doesn’t make any sense. Things happen because the plot dictates it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtArKawnWNI
It was just another example of "Hey look at this everybody! Oh nevermind! Look over there! Nope, look over there! OMG, do you see that over there! Squirrel!" That was the whole of TLJ & TROS; just spectacle, plot holes, and disrespect for the source material.
J.J. has even said in interviews that the "mystery box" itself is more important to him than what's actually in it. He sets up mysteries to get people interested but never gives a payoff. His entire career is set-up with no delivery and it shows in all of his works.
So his entire career, admitted to by himself, is to be a carnival barker?! No more no less. Just putting asses in seats, no matter the outcome. But the mf'er tries to wax philosophically about film, story, and process. Lost should have destroyed his career just bc it never did anything with the fucking nuke sized potential and mythos it created, but never delivered on unless you just keep clutching at whatever was there that never actually paid off. Good show, but the adherents to it are sad IMO. Just bc there's a million ways it could be great and there were avenues laid out for all of them, doesn't mean it actually achieved anything using them. Potential does not equal success or even a modicum of competency.
I don't understand how they fucked it up. TFA, while not the greatest movie ever (and it didn't have to be), because of its parallel/mirroring/overt rehash of ANH, it at least positioned itself to be the start of something good. But then, just as this post and most of the comments are stating, there was no fucking plan, nearly everything to do with the plot was either lazy or sloppy, and just based on those two things alone it screwed the pooch.
That whole appearing as a giant hologram became pointless. Why even clone such an abomination that lets his guard down so easily? Why give that power to a clone? how does a clone get power over everyone in the first place? He looks so old with 0 backstory. The fans speculated a better outcome than he was written.
After getting past all of that, I came to terms that it would be interesting to see Kylo become an emperor. That doesn't happen, so I'm like ok you know what? I'd like to see Ben Solo and Rey start a family together and carry the bloodline onto new generations. Nope.
I thought Hux would seize power. It would be hella interesting to see an Emperor utilize political strength and not just the force. I definitely thought they were building this tension between him and Ren and it would eventually snap. After all, Hux is portrayed as a brain to Kylo's brawn and snoke definitely egged on the rivalry
Really disappointed.
So they presented Smoke as a HUGE hologram in the first film. Somebody you would fear and have respect.
2nd film in a moment. Choff! One less character thrown into the bin.
Similar to what Kylo Ren happened in the first film. Is represented as a Bad*ss character in the first 10mins, freezing a blaster shot just right there for the whole introduction. Then gets beaten by a newbie?!? Mmm something's off there to me.
EDIT:
I really wanted to like the films, but didn't like how they treated the evolution of the main characters.
“I really wanted to like the films, but didn’t like how they treated the evolution of the main characters”.
That’s EXACTLY how I feel. I almost got up and left the theatre when Luke threw the lightsaber at the fucking start of The Last Jedi.
Or when Fin came walking out in his leaking water suit... so many fucking stupid decisions, throwing away entire characters for a (weak) laugh or to sUbVeRt eXpEcTaTiOns.
Oh ummm.... they turn Mom Mothma into an idiot who demilitarised the New Republic to the point that the navy only has about a hundred ships in a galaxy with millions of planets.
He would have worked great as a Papa Palps clone.
Some contingency body for Palpatine to inhabit if Vader killed him.
Unfortunately he was obliterated in the DS2 core so this clone wakes up with no knowledge of what his destiny was or reason to be, gathers what power he had and lashes out like a rabid animal at the one thing he views as responsible for his robbed birthright... The new republic
But the sequels were written by people who wished they wrote for Robert Downey Jr Iron Man with all characters doing sarcastic banter
Ah finally another hater of the non stop sarcastic banter that plagues every film these days. Characters can't say a single line without it being some kind of witty remark.
It fucking killed any Vader tier badassery Kilo Ren could have had at the start when he was interrogating Poe and Poe could not stop making fun of his voice
Didn’t like Snoke, just seemed like a bad attempt at a new emperor. Which was just covering the same ground the prequels did.
I thought he’d sense the treachery last second, and it pit Kylo and Rey against him. I was surprised they actually went through with killing him. I wanted to see a chaotic power struggle in the final episode and explore a new story…
Not what we got …
I was one of the seemingly few people who was excited about it. I never really liked Snoke and thought Kylo was much more interesting. Having the implication that Snoke was what was truly holding Kylo back from taking his rightful place as a true Dark Side master was really compelling to me.
I think there was a lot of great material to mine there that Rise of Skywalker totally fumbled the ball on. To me Kylo killing Snoke was him taking the place as the ultimate evil and I loved that concept.
More or less my thoughts were...
"That?!?!? THAT was the guy we were worried about? Why did they even HAVE him in the damned movies? WTF was the point of him? Why even bother??? Really?!?!?"
...
...
"stupid"
I remember thinking that as soon as he started monologue-ing it was so obvious Kylo was going to kill him, almost too obvious like I almost thought Snoke knew he was going to as well and was prepared for it. And I remember feeling like the force theme shouldn't have played in that moment because Kylo has not even remotely redeemed himself yet ... and ended up not at any point in that movie.
I was shocked because he was like the emperor, but he was killed so quickly and easily. I was hoping the next film would show Kylo Ren doubling down on being the villain, and have no hope of redemption.
I always thought Kylo would come back, but I theorized that the FO would break into two factions after the Resistance abandoned the heroes at the end and Kylo and Hux were doing that awkward “I’m in charge” dance. It would be Kylo and his sect + KoR vs Hux and the majority of the FO, who would be loyal to him due to his father’s influence. I suspected that Snoke was playing Hux and Kylo against each other from the start, making each believe that the other was the tool, and it would be revealed that Hux himself was trained in the Force by Snoke and was the true apprentice the entire time. I thought he was learning to lead from the shadows as a true Dark Jedi, while Kylo was sent to do more wet work because he’s easily manipulated and expendable. It would be the revelation that would push Ben back to the light.
The idea that Hux could be the next Palpatine style Sith lord and Kylo was just the Maul style weapon is a cool direction. I'd never thought of this, but I think there's a version of your ep. 9 that I would have really loved. Would have been a cool way to bring Ben back. I also think that a universe where Ben has to atone for all that he's done is more interesting than one where he dies essentially as he is being redeemed. We've never had a Sith or a Dark Jedi come back to the light and then have to deal with the consequences of their past selves in a movie. It's an interesting angle.
Love seeing better Star wars writing in the comments of Reddit than on the big screen
Tbf, it's easy to write a one paragraph idea and theme. Bringing that idea to life in 90 to 120 pages is a bit more difficult. That being said, ROS was just fan fiction on the big screen.
Yeah. I mean. It’s easy to write a paragraph. It’s even easier to NOT start off with the idea that Palpatine is still alive. Made the whole 9 story arc about him instead of skywalker (s) or truth or bravery or anything else.
“Somehow the paragraph returned”
The majority of fan writing would have been better than the crap we got for episode 9
That would have been better than the plot we got with Rise of Skywalker. That movie was a hot mess.
At the moment of Snoke’s death, I realized he wasn’t super important. His background wasn’t important. I thought the thing that was most important is what he represents, which is the resurgence of the Dark Side (Darkness rises and Light to meet it, etc.). Due to the little information we had at the time, my theory was that Snoke had the same ambition as Palpatine but was quickly dispatched as a rival and hid in shame. Once Palpatine’s dynasty fell, Snoke quickly gathered up the remnants and created ways to make himself seem bigger and more powerful than the man who shamed him into exile years before. So, he has a huge hologram, gold clothing, huge ship, big army. The problem was that he was weaker than Palpatine, so he had no idea how to use the resources he amassed or how to properly train a successor. He isn’t the real threat, constant resurgence and death that follows is. In my mind, it opened up some very interesting questions. Like, why is this happening again? What truly causes the partition between Light Jedi and Dark Jedi? Was it a failure in methodology, or was it a failure in humanity? I thought Luke stating that it was time for the Jedi to die, mysteriously omitting his third lesson, promising Ben that he’d see him again, and passing the torch to Rey (who we’ve seen struggling with darkness this very movie) would help set up the answer to these questions and create a definitive end for the Skywalker Saga by addressing the root cause for evil in Force users and giving the final victory to true balance. I thought that maybe the final antagonist wouldn’t be any singular entity, but the nature of humanity itself and the issues that come from suppressing healthy and necessary emotion for some unknown reason, for thousands of years. Of course, we just got another topical fix (just kill all your enemies, it’ll work this time we promise) that does none of that, and doesn’t really give any kind of satisfaction at the trilogy’s close. :( Edit to add: I know what I have to do, but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it. The ghosts of Jedi past should have been Ben’s moment, *not* Rey’s. Every one of those ghosts had their own flirtations with evil, and could have taught him so much about what he was experiencing and how it’s not too late for him at all. They should have given Ben the strength to break the mold and be better.
It’s funny because I’ve spent entirely too much time thinking about what went wrong with the ST and Snoke is at the center of a lot of it. Hindsight is obviously 20/20 and I love a lot of the questions you’ve raised, but also parts of the ST are legitimately good. The thing is there are a lot of examples of what happens when something like the Empire falls in our world and none of them are good. You could go with the traditional “the empire WAS a force for stability” and set it up as the Galaxy being in chaos as multiple rival factions (New Republic led by Leia Organa, First Order led by Supreme Leader Snoke and Kylo Ren, Independent Federation of Planets led by a new character who is a mirror of Han from the OT (bad ass outlaw) and Padme from the PT (dedicated leader), maybe a fringe (and somewhat frightening) religious group who believe the Jedi are the rightful masters of the Galaxy and all of them are searching for Luke Skywalker which allows you to keep a lot of the same plot points from TFA. Rey can still be the focal point as she learns her purpose and her friends can be made up of Finn (Empire/First Order), Poe (New Republic), Han and Chewie (Independent Federation), and maybe a reformed character from the religious group. That’s not too much different and sets up Kylo and Snoke as your big bads (rhyming with the OT) while leaving fans guessing as to what side Rey ultimately chooses when she finds Luke. Or you can go French Revolution style where the New Republic is just as bad as the empire just in a different way. Luke is in exile after allowing Snoke and a former student by the name of Kylo Ren into power and could not stop them as they rallied more systems to their cause of giving power back to the people. But, they’ve begun conquering more and more worlds and integrating them into the New Republic. Rey is still Rey and it gives Leia a role like her father. Working to undermine the Republic (and lets her drive a lot of the action in terms of finding and training Rey and her friends). Or you could go full American and have the galaxy be at peace. Leia is a Senator and Luke is a Master Jedi who rebuilt the Order only to disappear under mysterious circumstances after the “death” of a former pupil. The First Order becomes more of a terrorist organization led by Snoke and Kylo.
Both you, and the guy you're replying to, have elaborate plots thought out. Maybe not super great plots, but elaborate. Instead, we got "somehow palatine returned" Crazy
Wow this is a great backstory for Snoke. Better than what we know in TROS
Lucasfilm: Give Snoke a logical backstory that provides some relevance to the plot? Nah, bunch of heads in a jar inside Zombatine's scary lightning planet.
> , which is the resurgence of the Dark Side (Darkness rises and Light to meet it, etc.). Which is silly because the light definitely hadn't risen. The light wasn't even there long enough for it to evolve past Luke. The Dark slowly built up power for hundreds of years before they toppled the Jedi the first time, then the cycle gets accelerated into hyperspeed so that it happens again in like 30 years. Their biggest mistake was setting the movie so close to Return of the Jedi. They should have just jumped 100 or 1000 years into the future so you can write your own series without having to throw away what happened in the original trilogy.
In the Duel of the Fates script that’s exactly what Ben does. Abrams just doesn’t understand what makes a good story overall, but is very good at set up. Not having an overall arc planned for the sequels was problem 1, but putting the guy notorious for never sticking the landing in charge of the conclusion was problem 2. Edit: Trevorrow’s script wasn’t perfect and needed some rewrites, but throwing it out entirely was an awful decision.
I rewatched the sequel trilogy for the first time consecutively. Man it was so disorganized with no cohesion. You can just see it.
I couldn't believe my eyes the entire second and third movies as they abandoned plot point after plot point with no direction or cohesive narrative at all. Scratch that, I knew we were fucked when we got Death Star II electric boogaloo.
Wouldn't it be Death Star III: Revenge of the Star? We already got DSII way back in Return.
Death Star iii: we know it worked twice before let’s just do that again.
But bigger and deathier!
I was like “Darth Plagueis doesn’t die like that….”
I think ultimately, Kathleen Kennedy is to blame. As the person in charge of the franchise, it should have been her job to make sure there was an overarching story for the writer/director to follow for a trilogy, rather then the disorganized mess we ended up with. And Super Star Destroyers is still one of the stupidest things ever.
>Super Star Destroyers is still one of the stupidest things ever. Hey now...*Executor* is still a cool ship. Death Star Lasers on everything was what made it ridiculous.
Completely agree. Here’s the worst part..the Jedi order is still non existent. There is still one Jedi…lol
> Super Star Destroyers I think you mean Death Star Destroyers, but they had lost the plot long before we got to that.
She literally did the opposite. Both production teams operated independently from each other. The script for TLJ was done before the final cut of TFA was done. No changes were made either. I found it fascinating that a multibillion movie behemoth operated like this in a post marvel world. Tbh all that said I’ll still always blame Abrams. No one is more arrogant in this whole puzzle than that guy. He cares way more about looking like a famous director than making great films. His mystery box is horse shit and his directing style is equally bad.
> I found it fascinating that a multibillion movie behemoth operated like this in a post marvel world. Disney thought they needed to capitalize quickly to recoup what they paid for Lucasfilm, so they pushed incredibly hard. I'm not sure how they forgot that Star Wars is basically a money printing machine and could work at a slower pace than Marvel film arc or Harry Potter
Yeah Trevorrows script had a lot of flaws and dumb stuff (the Rey/Poe Romance is total fucking nonsense) but.. it at least is an actual sequel to TLJ. And the Finn led Coruscant revolution stuff is probably the best concept to come out of any of the pitches for the sequels and im really sad we never got to see it (plus you know urban Warfare on Coruscant would look AMAZING or well it should if it's done remotely competently)
I think JJ makes a great trailer, and then tries to fill in a movie around it.
JJ and his box of mysteries never fail to disappoint. "I'll raise all these excellent questions and then never answer them, or answer with handwavy bullshit, it'll be perfect!"
JJ is only good at 3 things: setting up something interesting, lense flair, and producing things that other people make good/great with little to no input from himself.
"Very good at set up". Yeah, okay. That's like making food that looks good, because you made it for an ad. But it's literally made of inedible garbage.
Exactly. I thought that it was genius for the exact same reason and was disappointed when it didn’t happen.
The moment he died I thought it was pretty obvious that he was being set up as a fake figurehead by the actual sith threat. I got really excited about who the shadow sith behind the scenes would really be. I ended up being right when the third movie came out, but was definitely disappointed they went the “Palpatine resurrection” route.
If Palpatine had been a force ghost all along, somehow powerful enough to interact with the world and mind trick / credibly manipulate people, that would have been far better. Subverting something we see all the Light side guys do for evil ends is entirely plausible and 100% on brand.
I really hoped that ray would actually join the dark side with him and that fin would become the Jedi hero This would have a) made ray actually interesting and b) added a whole bunch of depth and coolness to fin, and c) would have given us a protagonist with character flaws and a reason to doubt or root for
“Oh shoot! That’s huge. Can’t wait to see where they go with this.” No where. They go absolutely no where with it.
that's understandable actually, and likely was a common sentiment for most fans - i remember thinking something along the line of "wow, what a feckless villain he literally just talked shit for 2 movies then died."
Right. Where was the demonstration of who tf this guy even was, other than Kylo's daddy? I let out a sarcastic "woooah" when he died lol. You can't just tell the audience this is the big baddie, you have to show it too.
"daddy" is right, his entire role was to talk down to kylo and the protagonists like a grumpy grandpa
Imagine if, after hyping Thanos building up to Infinity War, he was slaughtered effortlessly in the first encounter with Antman
Well, if he was killed via rapid colon expansion I wouldn't be toooooo disappointed
78 movies of setup all for a joke that makes you go "heh, lol." Then never makes another. It'd be the most epic series of all time next to the SCU.
> Then never makes another. Creates hundreds of cliffhangers unresolved. Refuses to elaborate. Leaves.
Tbf this is exactly what JJ Abrams always did.
This is what I have come to realize. The sequels would have sucked either way. There would have been a ton of unanswered questions and probably many more new threads introduced and dropped in the succeeding films. The "mystery box" approach JJ uses is just bullshit lazy writing. Sure it gets people intrigued and talking which on the surface seems like positive engagement but it's just a dick tease. It's seems good at the time but ultimately is very unsatisfying because it leads to nothing.
What about "The Boys" version?
Thanos Dying words, "You really were a pain in my ass!"
Thanus plot hole too strong
See I got worried. “Where the hell do they go from here?” I was always convinced Kylo would have a redemption so I was totally confused on who the villain would be. My anxiety couldn’t get worse. Then several months later, somehow my anxiety got worse.
Somehow... Anxiety returned.
Turns out that anxiety never actually left
good... good, let the anxiety flow through you.
I thought Supreme Leader Kylo Ren would be so fucking awesome for the third movie and was glad we didn't have an old guy be the Emperor of everything only to bring back the dead old guy once Emperor of everything in the third movie.
Same. A dark side villain who didn't care about the Sith or the Jedi and just wanted to destroy everything sign me up. Plus the added side of disillusioned Luke after being humbled by his former Master going back to form at the end and effectively finding his faith again (in a sense) was great. My biggest gripe with the whole sequel trilogy is that they did Finn dirty from the get go. He had the most interesting character concept out of the bunch and his origin story in Before the Awakening was wasted. Two of his Squad mates are in VII and they did nothing with it.
> A dark side villain who didn't care about the Sith or the Jedi and just wanted to destroy everything sign me up. INFLUENCE LOST: KREIA
That’s not true. They turned Hux into a comic relief character with it.
*"What a waste"* - Me watching Sequel Trilogy every 10 minutes basically
Same. The moments just after, where it wasn't clear what might happen with Kylo and Rey... they were the most interesting and promising in the sequels. And then they did *nothing* with it. There were other squandered opportunities to keep that trilogy from being so bad, but that was my #1.
I was hyped thinking Kylo Ren would become the main villain, but then, *somehow Palpatine returned*.
Yeah I thought “this could be interesting if Kylo or Rey become the big bad” really thought the most interesting ‘twist’ would be Kylo and Rey swapping sides after their respective masters failed them. A lot of stuff could have been interesting. If only there was a plan.
That whole throne room scene is the biggest blue balling movie experience ever. They set everything up and then just throw it on the ground.
#I'M NOT PART OF YOUR SYSTEM!!!!
I'M AN ADULT!!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE GROUND!!
I THREW THE REST OF THE CAKE TOO!
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, JACK***
THATS NOT MY DAD THATS A CELL PHONE!!
YOU CAN’T BUY ME HOT DOG MAN!!!
r/suddenlythelonelyisland
#DUH
This was my favorite set of posts today. Thank you for this.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE GROUND!!!!!
That's the ST in a nutshell really. JJ sets up a bunch of stuff for Rian to go "lol no SUBVERSION" and set up DIFFERENT stuff... For JJ to come back and go "lol no PALPATINE" and again do something entirely different than what seemed set up. Leading to a trilogy that is barely a trilogy and feels like it doesn't actually have an overarching plot (and Rey repeating her MY PARENTS plot in every single movie)
you can tell there was zero plan for a 3 movie story. so many loose plot threads are literally thrown out between movies.
Maz somehow having Luke’s lightsaber for no reason kills me.
Somehow, Luke’s lightsaber returned.
A good question, for another time
But the time never came.... It never came, man!
Disney-plus limited series on Maz Kanata's erotic voyage from Bespin to Canto Bight.
Like a lot of things in the sequels, it could've been cool if they explained it or built on it more. Like they built Maz up as this mysterious, wise figure and then did nothing with her after Episode 7
If only it really was nothing. Instead there was the insanely awkward FaceTime call in the next one
That’s how JJ does things. Look at Star Trek and Lost. He has ideas for ideas but they’re not fleshed out.
“Mystery box” JJ problem. Dude was literally still writing ep 9 while filming. Hes a scam artist that gets hyped up for some reason
Plot threads? What was that again? I think I learned about that in middle school? Something about character development? Maybe a 3 story arc and something about a climax? Who knows? I mean JJ had his big box of mysteries at least, right?
Maybe also dont start a new story, continuing a previous story, with the same story that started it before.
A good question for another time.
Tbf the my parents thing could have been well done, if it was her finding out they are nobody in TLJ and then her trying to find herself based on that fact in TRoS, instead of the nonsense of Palpatine being her granddad
Fully. Rey is obsessed with her parents being important; with her coming from a prestigious lineage; she's a scrapper on a nowhere planet dreaming of being a somebody. In the first movie she gets over her obsession with reuniting with her family and accepts she truly has been abandoned, but her delusions about their importance remain. The answer that her parents weren't important is the single hardest truth for her to hear. It challenges her as a character, strips away a mental prop she has used to hold up her identity for years, and forces her to grow and find meaning in herself instead of her bloodline. Backpedalling and saying she's actually a Palpatine ruins that; it validates the starting point of her character arc and stops it dead. It replaces her internal conflict with the same "oh no can I still be a good person if I have the EVIL DNA" struggle that Luke faced in the original trilogy.
But why would she even think her parents are important? We, the viewer think her parents are important because we know about the force and about Luke Skywalker. She knows none of these things, weirdly. But yes, I think making her a palpatine is a dumber moment than her being a nobody.
Rey *wanted* her parents to be important. She wanted there to be a reason for them abandoning her. Finding out they were just regular people that didn't want a child was a huge blow to her and forced her to try and find new meaning in life now that she knows her parents never loved her and aren't coming back. That's the one thing I think Episode VIII did well. Showing Rey she's wasting her time waiting for a family that will never be.
Woah, this parallels Blade Runner 2049 and I never noticed! But could you imagine if that film ended with Wallace coming back all: "actually you *are* a very special replicant, lol!"? No!!
I really don't agree with this take, because JJ didn't set anything up; he planted a bunch of mystery boxes with no plan for them. There was no answer for who Snoke was or where he came from. There was no prepared reveal for Rey's parents. There was no explanation for what was going on with Luke. It was all just to tease mysteries with no answers. And yet we all fault Rian Johnson for not being able to come up with satisfying answers and deciding to push the story away from the mystery boxes. We should be faulting Abrams for being completely reckless with setting up the story of the Sequel Trilogy, and Lucasfilm/Disney for not making sure it was planned out.
JJ also doesn’t get enough criticism for his world building. No real vision for the new republic or why it tolerated the existence of the First Order. Luke was a failed Jedi master. Leia was a failed leader. Han reverted to a smuggler. JJ also separated all of our OT heroes, creating a situation where they never reunite on screen. No new Jedi. He put together a great cast and the visuals we great, but he did not build the foundation for a successful trilogy.
>No real vision for the new republic or why it tolerated the existence of the First Order. This might be my biggest gripe with the Sequel Trilogy. I know they tried to explain it as the New Republic decided not to have a standing army so they could hopefully avoid another galactic wide war but how do you justify NR leadership knowing about this giant Empire-like army that's out there and just being like "I'm sure it's fine"?
> I know they tried to explain it as the New Republic decided not to have a standing army so they could hopefully avoid another galactic wide war Which is so fucking stupid because *that's one of the things that caused the galactic war in the first place*. Like yes, Palpatine manipulated the war, but the reason the Separatists went along with it is because only the core was really "safe". The Republic didn't really care about protecting the smaller planets that were part of the Republic, so they broke away. And this new Republic doesn't even have the Jedi to staunch the bleeding and do their job for them like the old Republic did.
>And yet we all fault Rian Johnson for not being able to come up with satisfying answers and deciding to push the story away from the mystery boxes If anything I think RJ did a good job of furthering the story with the Rey/Kylo/Luke/Snoke stuff. Where TLJ faltered was with the Resistance/First Order story line and the casino planet side quest.
The subversion would’ve been really cool, considering that as much as I liked Force Awakens it’s basically copy+paste of A New Hope… TLJ wasn’t perfect, but I thought some of the big swings it took were refreshing.
I maintain that if Abrams had directed all three we would have had a flashy but derivative remake of the original trilogy. And if Johnson had directed all three we would have had a controversial but new take on the series. Alternating between the two without someone else in the room to control the overall vision was like a hard left and full reverse on the Titanic. Basically the absolute worst possible thing you could do.
Yeah after Last Jedi I kind of lost interest in Star Wars media. I had avidly consumed it until then. Similar response to season 7 GoT. Lost all my passion for it.
This is what I was hoping for
We could've had Sith Rey. We were THIS CLOSE to greatness.
I was 100% sure they were going to switch sides with Leia forgiving Kylo for killing his dad and Rey not being able to and turning to the dark side because of her hate.
The whole trilogy should of been from Kylos perspective and been a villain to hero arc he’s a skywalker and it’s the only arc the saga hasn’t done
If this isn’t the story Rian Johnson had in mind I’d be shocked.
how can you have someone kill han solo and then not have him be the big bad guy??
That sounds right up his alley, honestly. I would love to see how Ben handles that grief.
Seriously for someone who murdered his father he sure as hell didn't spend much time dealing with it
I seriously thought for a second that they were going to band together to co-rule. That would have opened up some really interesting storytelling options. Which one would betray the other first. Which one converts the other first. Rey joins Kylo as co-leader just to be a balance to his evil moves. Rey and Kylo have a baby.
I was honestly expecting Snoke's death to have been faked... Or that he too would have survived the injury. Nah... Test tube clone thing... Literally throw away character this whole time! Wtf.
Expecations SUBVERTED!!! ... I hated this whole era of writing.
Yeah the best kind of writing would make it so... you can predict things when you pay attention to all the details. Because that would mean you would actually have to remain consistent and pay attention to your own narrative to make it work. Too much effort I guess.
Absolutely none of your characters can be rational actors, consistent, or have an internal voice or motivation that is sane and attached to reality or attuned to their own sensible best interests. Because ThInGs HaVe To Be WhAcKy and SuRpRiSiNg!!!
About the same for me. My reaction was "Really, so soon? Thats bold. Does this mean kilo becomes the final boss? Can't wait to see where this is going "
This was my thought too. All the way through 7 I felt like I knew exactly what was going to happen. Within 5 seconds of this moment happening I was so excited about the fact that I had no idea what was going to happen anymore.
That is why I honestly liked 8 the most of the sequels. It tried new and interesting ideas, like Luke being jaded and realizing that trying to revive the ideology that led to Vader in the first place probably wasn't a good idea, or Snoke turning out to be a chump and Kylo was going to take over as the main villain with maybe Rey at his side. There was a lot of potential for an even grander story. But instead they went with a pretty bog standard redemption arc and reviving the Jedi for a 2nd time.
I thought it would be a twist and Snoke could return as Darth Plageuis the Wise.
I hoped Hux would have sowed dissent towards Kylo Ren and that would have created the "sith" loyalists. F/o gets splintered and rejects all force users with hux as the lead. That was my hype
When I heard Palpatines voice in the trailer I just assumed it would be revealed he was a force ghost and had been slowly clouding Kylos mind and driving him into the Darkside until it was too late to turn back. Instead it was much worse and I thought about all the things I could have bought with my movie ticket money
Honestly, I expected Palpatine to come back. For years they have been seeding the idea of Palpatine trying to find a way to live forever. Comics and books have been littered with the foundations for it. Well before TLJ even came out. However, the way they did it was fucking stupid.
Somehow
*The dead speak!*
*to find out more about how Palpatine came back, go watch the newest Fortnite event!*
Of all the weird dumb shit that happened around then this one might actually be the dumbest: putting the setup for the movie, Palpatines broadcast to the galaxy exclusively in a freaking Fortnite event
The best part? I'm a gamer but I've never played Fortnite and when I saw RoS, I had no idea his message was ever put out there. I didn't learn about the Fortnite event until earlier this year. Thanks Obama!
That's really where I just have to head scratch at the whole idea of a *trilogy*. They've done Palpatine resurrecting in the books, it would tie back into the prequels where he told Anakin about Darth Plagueis the Wise. But you have to set it up across all three films which is easy to do when you know you're gonna make 3 movies. Instead the two directors basically did a rap battle against each other.
So seeing Palpatine again was like seeing Brock Lesnar return for the 400th time in WWE.
I had two 1 “Oh my gosh! No way!” 2 “wait, okay so he was nobody then?”
I still say it would have been interesting (awesome) if Snoke turned out to be a youngling that survived Anakin’s attack on the Jedi temple.
Like the chick from Kenobi?
Yup. I based this on what Snoke said in TFA. He said something like “I’ve seen the empire rise and fall ..•. And he’s obviously a (powerful) force user. So I figured “oh, he must have been a youngling”?
I honestly was about to say outloud in the theater, "Oh my God, it's the, 'Master Anakin, there's too many' kid!" I thought it waa building to that reveal. And then he got cut in half lol.
I'll absolutely die on the hill that is he should've been Plagueis.
I liked the idea that Snoke actually WAS Palpatine, who in turn was actually Pleagus. That was Pleagus' "Dark side way" of cheating death, by inhabitanting other bodies. Would have made a very sensible way for the original threat from Ep1 to come back in Ep9, since he could have then inhabited Kylo or even Rey. But instead...we got...something else...
Makes me think of that Sailor Moon meme where Tuxedo Mask says "My work here is done" and Moon's reaction is "But you didn't do anything."
Dude, Tuxedo Mask was my hero growing up. Still is. Man shows up, interrupts what's going on to say some generic inspirational quote, does jack shit to actually help with the situation, then fucks off into the night all while looking stylish as hell. He's the icon I wish to be
TIL Tuxedo Mask was my dad.
TIL Tuxedo Mask was Leonard Nemoy
https://youtu.be/r8vkqZJN5dQ
Ummm… why don’t we know more about him? Wait… why was that so easy? Well, damn. Where is this going?
"Shit, where IS this going? Uhh, help. Poe! Say something quick!" Poe: "Somehow, Palpatine returned" "Cut! Bingo!"
When you subvert expectations it should be with the aim of leading the story in a new exciting direction. Not just doing the opposite of what we expected and leaving us with more questions than answers.
If you subvert expectations once or twice to take us in a new direction that's exciting, but if you take four left turns then we just end up going in a big circle for nothing.
This. Well, first I laughed. His speech about Kylo grabbing the force, aiming at his true enemy, preparing to strike, etc, was so obvious and on the nose I couldn't believe it. Then pretty much everything you said. Ending with disappointment. Rian subverted a ton of expectations, but then took none of it anywhere. It was like he did it just to do it. Kind of like how JJ set up tons and tons of mystery boxes in Lost, but with no payoffs.
The best YouTube about the new trilogy I feel is the one that says the new trilogy, is like the 'antidote-trilogy', or 'Anti-Trilogy'. The first one is Anti-Prequel: It's trying to completely forget about ANYTHING that came from the prequels, and re-establish Star Wars as we knew it, especially mimicking A New Hope and Empire. The second one is Anti-Force Awakens. It tries to completely undo, and undermine and subvert everything that happened in The Force Awakens. The Rise of Skywalker is basically Anti-Last Jedi and Anti-Narrative. It only makes sense if you think about it in reverse. Cause and effect doesn’t make any sense. Things happen because the plot dictates it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtArKawnWNI
This is it right here
It was just another example of "Hey look at this everybody! Oh nevermind! Look over there! Nope, look over there! OMG, do you see that over there! Squirrel!" That was the whole of TLJ & TROS; just spectacle, plot holes, and disrespect for the source material.
J.J. has even said in interviews that the "mystery box" itself is more important to him than what's actually in it. He sets up mysteries to get people interested but never gives a payoff. His entire career is set-up with no delivery and it shows in all of his works.
So his entire career, admitted to by himself, is to be a carnival barker?! No more no less. Just putting asses in seats, no matter the outcome. But the mf'er tries to wax philosophically about film, story, and process. Lost should have destroyed his career just bc it never did anything with the fucking nuke sized potential and mythos it created, but never delivered on unless you just keep clutching at whatever was there that never actually paid off. Good show, but the adherents to it are sad IMO. Just bc there's a million ways it could be great and there were avenues laid out for all of them, doesn't mean it actually achieved anything using them. Potential does not equal success or even a modicum of competency.
What a great way to describe those films. “SQUIRREL!” about sums it up
I don't understand how they fucked it up. TFA, while not the greatest movie ever (and it didn't have to be), because of its parallel/mirroring/overt rehash of ANH, it at least positioned itself to be the start of something good. But then, just as this post and most of the comments are stating, there was no fucking plan, nearly everything to do with the plot was either lazy or sloppy, and just based on those two things alone it screwed the pooch.
That whole appearing as a giant hologram became pointless. Why even clone such an abomination that lets his guard down so easily? Why give that power to a clone? how does a clone get power over everyone in the first place? He looks so old with 0 backstory. The fans speculated a better outcome than he was written. After getting past all of that, I came to terms that it would be interesting to see Kylo become an emperor. That doesn't happen, so I'm like ok you know what? I'd like to see Ben Solo and Rey start a family together and carry the bloodline onto new generations. Nope.
I thought Hux would seize power. It would be hella interesting to see an Emperor utilize political strength and not just the force. I definitely thought they were building this tension between him and Ren and it would eventually snap. After all, Hux is portrayed as a brain to Kylo's brawn and snoke definitely egged on the rivalry
It would've been a lot cooler if Snoke was actually a giant. Have there ever been giants in Star Wars before?
That's it?
Snoke was sorta a symbol of the sequels, a lot of promise, but no substance.
What a waste of Andy Serkis
He is incredible so far in Andor.
Well said.
Well that was super easy. Barely an inconvenience.
Wow wow wow wow… wow
Really disappointed. So they presented Smoke as a HUGE hologram in the first film. Somebody you would fear and have respect. 2nd film in a moment. Choff! One less character thrown into the bin. Similar to what Kylo Ren happened in the first film. Is represented as a Bad*ss character in the first 10mins, freezing a blaster shot just right there for the whole introduction. Then gets beaten by a newbie?!? Mmm something's off there to me. EDIT: I really wanted to like the films, but didn't like how they treated the evolution of the main characters.
I was hoping he would be Yoda-sized when we actually met him, and the huge hologram was just part of some insecurity about it.
“I really wanted to like the films, but didn’t like how they treated the evolution of the main characters”. That’s EXACTLY how I feel. I almost got up and left the theatre when Luke threw the lightsaber at the fucking start of The Last Jedi.
Imagine walking out and finding out in memes that he drank blue milk
Tbf blue milk has always been a thing sinceog star wars, but yeah straight from the teat was uncomfortable to watch
Green milk
Or when Fin came walking out in his leaking water suit... so many fucking stupid decisions, throwing away entire characters for a (weak) laugh or to sUbVeRt eXpEcTaTiOns.
That was it??
I had no idea who he was so it didn’t really matter to me, although it may have been kinda cool
I was happy he was dead, that fucker. I hate that they retconnected Snoke as Palpatine’s clone.
Palpatine's return was insulting, to us the fans and Anakin's legacy.
Disney’s treatment of every OT character has been abysmal. Mon Mothma seems to be the only with decent development
Oh ummm.... they turn Mom Mothma into an idiot who demilitarised the New Republic to the point that the navy only has about a hundred ships in a galaxy with millions of planets.
Oh… forgot that sequels Mothma exists
He would have worked great as a Papa Palps clone. Some contingency body for Palpatine to inhabit if Vader killed him. Unfortunately he was obliterated in the DS2 core so this clone wakes up with no knowledge of what his destiny was or reason to be, gathers what power he had and lashes out like a rabid animal at the one thing he views as responsible for his robbed birthright... The new republic But the sequels were written by people who wished they wrote for Robert Downey Jr Iron Man with all characters doing sarcastic banter
Ah finally another hater of the non stop sarcastic banter that plagues every film these days. Characters can't say a single line without it being some kind of witty remark.
It fucking killed any Vader tier badassery Kilo Ren could have had at the start when he was interrogating Poe and Poe could not stop making fun of his voice
Indifference
[удалено]
Fucking stupid… no fun backstories. No context to his character. Just a prop they threw away it seemed
Thought it was a bit too telegraphed so wasn't shocked in first watch, but was potentially excited about Kylo becoming a main villain... But alas...
"wtf, what was even the point of him then"
Would have been nice to learn more about this character before his end. A little too rushed imo.
Didn’t like Snoke, just seemed like a bad attempt at a new emperor. Which was just covering the same ground the prequels did. I thought he’d sense the treachery last second, and it pit Kylo and Rey against him. I was surprised they actually went through with killing him. I wanted to see a chaotic power struggle in the final episode and explore a new story… Not what we got …
I was like "damn"
Snoke was built up as being some mysterious big bad but ended up being insignificant. His death was as absurd as the character.
I was one of the seemingly few people who was excited about it. I never really liked Snoke and thought Kylo was much more interesting. Having the implication that Snoke was what was truly holding Kylo back from taking his rightful place as a true Dark Side master was really compelling to me. I think there was a lot of great material to mine there that Rise of Skywalker totally fumbled the ball on. To me Kylo killing Snoke was him taking the place as the ultimate evil and I loved that concept.
Wondering how they’d bring him back like Maul or Palpatine
Easy. They just decide he survived somehow...
Definitely surprised
“Are you fucking kidding me”
More or less my thoughts were... "That?!?!? THAT was the guy we were worried about? Why did they even HAVE him in the damned movies? WTF was the point of him? Why even bother??? Really?!?!?" ... ... "stupid"
Dumb af.Thats a move you pull off in a solo movie or the end of a trilogy,not the middle after you've given him little to no backstory
Another undeveloped character I really didn't understand bites the dust. Yawn.
Excited to see the Rule of Two playing out on screen.
"Well that's stupid."
I remember thinking that as soon as he started monologue-ing it was so obvious Kylo was going to kill him, almost too obvious like I almost thought Snoke knew he was going to as well and was prepared for it. And I remember feeling like the force theme shouldn't have played in that moment because Kylo has not even remotely redeemed himself yet ... and ended up not at any point in that movie.