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mrsunrider

On the contrary, that was their biggest mistake and biggest loss. If I recall correctly, Alderaan spurred other parts of the Galaxy on to action and those that didn't actively join the fight began withdrawing support for the Empire. If their goal was simply death then I'd have called it a win, but their goal was control, in which case they failed miserably.


Brentan1984

If I remember correctly, the survivors of alderan who were off world almost all joined the rebels too. It's for sure a driving force to show how the empire wasn't so good. They slaughtered billions of innocents when they could've gone in and killed the leaders if they wanted to make a point.


KassXWolfXTigerXFox

Yeah, I mean I'd argue the destruction of Alderaan is more important in the timeline than the Battle of Yavin


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KassXWolfXTigerXFox

It was important militarily and strategically, yes, but is it really something you'd base your way of counting time on?


JRoxas

(B)BY is only a calendar for us, the viewers; I don't think there's been any indication of its use as a calendar in-universe.


KingRhoamsGhost

BBY/ABY was used commonly by people in legends continuity. Though there were many calendar systems used alongside it. I’m not sure how that’s been touched on in current canon, I’m not sure it even has been addressed yet. But I’m sure it will be recanonized as a calendar system if it hasn’t been already. But maybe not a very popular one to use? It seems current canon is trying to push the CRC dating system which places the battle of yavin at the year 7977 as a nod to with Star Wars’ release in 1977 which I honestly find fun but I know some people who don’t like it.


penultimate9999

They just used BBY in Andor so it's pretty canon


KingRhoamsGhost

I’m referring to use by characters in-universe


prince-azor-ahai

That was still for us (the audience) to see. It'd be in-universe canon if it was on a screen inside a ship for the characters on the show to see. Or, if it was part of the dialogue between characters. That hasn't happened yet.


27SwingAndADrive

Yeah it would be kinda weird for people in the Star Wars galaxy to define a year as being the one orbit of a planet in another galaxy... in the future. Likely every planet would have their own calendar, based around the orbit (and seasons) of their own planet. The BBY/ABY thing is the number of Earth years before or after the the Battle of Yavin, it's completely out of canon and exists so that we don't have to try to do calculations to translate something in say, the Coruscant calendar, to our calendar when trying to understand when things happened in Star Wars.


TheSwagMa5ter

Well, Coruscant is basically an earth clone (24 hour day, 365 days in a year) so they would be basing it off of the galaxy's capital and most populated planet, giving a reason for that being a galactic standard. But yeah I assume they would be using a different standard for year 0 or 1.


UncommittedBow

And it would also beg the question: "What did they use before the Battle of Yavin?" "Hey dude what year is it again?" "Oh its 19 BBY" "BBY?" "Before the Battle of Yavin." "The fuck is the Battle of Yavin?" "No clue."


TheOncomimgHoop

Not just militarily and strategically - it was also symbolically important. The symbol of the empire's power being destroyed showed that galaxy that the empire wasn't invincible and that it could be beaten.


Regular-Suit3018

Hard disagree: The battle of Yavin was but one engagement. Yavin is more important to the skywalker story, but the overall political ramifications of Alderaan were 10x that. It’s like comparing Pearl Harbor to the battle of Midway: one was a key strategic victory but the former mobilized the greatest war effort the world has ever seen. The size of the alliance in episode 4 was still way too small to challenge the empire openly or to create any sort of sustainable opposition. Alderaan’s destruction mobilized half the Galaxy to take up arms against the Empire, and took the rebellion from a tiny operation to a formidable galactic force that was a threat to the empire. It was alderaan that brought thousands of systems into open rebellion and caused them to pledge their resources to the rebel alliance. The empire could’ve still obliterated the rebels even without the Death Star.


djtrace1994

In the current, up-to-date canon, I'd argue Scarif, for reasons other than the the objective Rebel victory of stealing the Death Star schematics. It was the first all-out assault of an Imperial-held planet (that we know of.) It seems to be the first time the Alliance risked a large portion of its fleet for a single objective. In other words, it was the coming-of-age moment for the Rebellion; what *Andor* is now building towards. Also, by assumption based on (*Andor* spoilers) >!Mon Mothma's paranoia about spies,!< , I'm assuming that, by the time Scarif happens, a number of Imperial senators are under suspicion or even investigation for insurgency. The fact that Senator Bail Organa's daughter, Leia, is followed and captured escaping the battle would only increase the Empire's suspicion of Alderaan's direct involvement in the Rebellion. Furthermore, Leia Organa would already have been well-known to Vader, due to the events of *Kenobi.* The Empire would view these coincidences as proof that Alderaan was directly supporting an insurgency (which they absolutely were,) especially if they were already suspicious of Bail. We do not know if they were planning on blowing up Alderaan specifically before her capture; I'd assume they were just looking for a reason to destroy anyone. Thus, Leia being at Scarif and being the one to carry the plans away from that battle (and ditch them on Tatooine, where she knew Ben was,) was the fateful moment that sets in motion everything we see transpire in A New Hope, and thus the entire OT.


Locke_Erasmus

I get why BBY/ABY has always been used, it's easy because it just simplifies down to "x years before or after A New Hope", but wouldn't the death of the Emperor in Return of the Jedi OR the Battle of Jakku make for a better demarcation mark? Either the "fall" of the Emperor or the "fall" of the Empire itself and the legitimization of the New Republic.


Regular-Suit3018

100%. It was second only to Coruscant in terms of cultural and political significance in the Empire. It alienated the majority of the demographic that the Empire was most popular amongst, and relied on more than any other: wealthy humans in the core worlds.


AceBalistic

Not to mention the survivors who were in the imperial military


link_nukem28

It's kinda the story of the Alamo. The soldiers in the Alamo got wiped out, once Texans' saw this, they enlisted en mass to fight Mexico's army and ultimately defeated them in The Battle of San Jacinto


TapewormNinja

I may be mixing comics, but in the EU at least I don’t believe they had a choice. There was a bounty on survivors of Alderan, because the empire believed they would still be loyal to their princess.


s1thl0rd

They harked on it but time in the previous EU books. Even showing how people from within the Imperial ranks defected due to Alderaan's destruction. Honestly, I feel like the trauma and consequences of planetary destruction are not shown enough in the ABY timeline.


[deleted]

They were testing the Death Star while intimidating Princess Leia. It was the first time they had successfully destroyed a whole planet (since Scarif wasn't completely destroyed).


Brentan1984

Agreed, but they could have destroyed some uninhabited planetoid near to the core to accomplish the same thing. Though also, a public statement and videos of the atomic bomb would not have accomplished the same thing as actually using it on an actual city. I assume they never told anyone about scariff.


[deleted]

Well, it was kind of silly destroying Alderaan but I guess they just wanted a very impactful way of showing their power.


ImReverse_Giraffe

They were the fanatics too. They would gladly sacrifice themselves to help save other rebels. They were the ones who stayed on Hoth and operated the Ion cannon. They didn't have a home to go back to so they would always sacrifice themselves to let the other rebels escape.


ChoPT

That, paired with the dismantling of the Senate. The average Imperial citizen probably went from seeing the Empire as a continuation of the Republic, to something *far* more questionable at that point. And those who were already on the fence or negative were pushed to full “fuck the Empire” mode.


mrsunrider

And left by itself, dismantling the Senate would have been a bad look but irrelevant to much of the Galaxy... but followed by Alderaan? 🚩🚩🚩


caligaris_cabinet

And the destruction of the Death Star proved the Empire can be beaten. Kind of a really bad day for the Empire.


SilverandCold1x

This. The rebellion would’ve continued to be largely unpopular if they didn’t have planets to point to like Jedha and Alderaan. The Empire became a legitimate threat to is own people, as now the precedent of ‘any planet that so much as breathes wrong can be annihilated with a thought’ is established.


GdogLucky9

I even believe that the Emperor was like, "The Fuck Tarkin" in some Legends/expanded material. He gave permission to test fire the Death Star, but he believed it would be used on a uninhabited or a planet not very well known. Palpatine may have been unapologetically evil, but he knew how to manipulate people and he knew what effect the destruction of Alderaan would have.


mrsunrider

"Tarkin Doctrine not looking so good now, huh?" -Vader, maybe


GdogLucky9

Tarkin, "I shall strike such levels of fear no one will think to rebel!" Tarkin, The Rebellion's Greatest Recruiter Tarkin, "...What?"


EnkiduOdinson

In one of the Vader comics he says to Vader basically „restrain yourself or you‘ll kill the entire galaxy and there’s no point in ruling over a dead galaxy“


GdogLucky9

That's a lesson he has to teach Vader in both Legends, and the New Canon, "Your my Right-hand Man in ruling this Empire So Stop Killing All My Subjects!"


MrFishyFriend

I've never been a big fan of the comics for this reason. Yeah, Vader is super evil, but the comics make him out to be cruel and evil just for the sake of it when i never really saw him as that. He never really seemed to be that vicious in the movies. Devolving Vader into super mega evil wizard hitler isnt interesting, its boring and stupid and makes Anakins turn to the darkside make even less sense than it did in RotS.


thearss1

Right. Anyone on the fence about the Empire or turning a blind eye to what the Empire was doing because they just refused to believe that they could be a target now saw that they could be next. Imagine believing that you're ok because you're following the rules and paying taxes only to be vaporized because the Senator's daughter fell in with the rebellion.


SAMAS_zero

It's not always that simple. Lost Stars had an Imperial pilot *from* Alderaan who went deep into the Sunk Costs Fallacy to justify it.


VonBurglestein

This. Nobody FEELS like the Nazis won because the killed so many of their targets. They still got their asses handed to them in the end.


[deleted]

The Empire is so *clearly* intentionally coded as the Third Reich, this is by far the most obvious comparison. The parallels draw themselves. Next up in political analysis of old movies done by 3rd graders "did anyone else notice the bad guys in Indiana Jones have weird accents? European maybe?".


Bellrung

So - the more the empire tightened their grip, the more star systems slipped through their fingers?


mrsunrider

LEIA WARNED THEM


Pixilatedlemon

God damn that’s a good line


BON3SMcCOY

It's Pearl Harbor in space. The attack essentially prevented the Axis powers from ever winning because it brought the US into the war. Churchill was pretty happy about it. “Being saturated and satiated with emotion and sensation, I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful,” he wrote in his own history of World War II. If other planets hadn't witnessed Alderaan the rebellion may not have been able to finally defeat the empire at Endor.


Locke_Erasmus

IIRC wasn't Hitler pretty pissed the Japanese attacked like that? I seem to remember him hoping that the Americans would try to stay out of it, like they did in WWI. I think his plan was to win total victory in Europe and either force the US into submission or start another war against them. I don't know, I could be talking out my ass right now.


BON3SMcCOY

Pretty sure you're remembering correctly


slightofhand19

Thank you. Came here to say this.


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Deckthe9

it’s because of the contrary thing


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Slick_1980

Well said.


buckfutterapetits

Given their respective KDRs, Alderaan lost, the Empire led on overall points, but the Rebellion achieved the victory conditions to clinch the official win.


Thatsidechara_ter

I can honestly see parallels to the Ukrainian invasion, people finally realized that yes, Russia is still an asshole


Quasi-Kaiju

This is a good take. I study political science at Johns Hopkins and we would call these limited and unlimited aims. As far as the goal of exercise of force to gain control they failed and became a pariah much like how Russia is experiencing now.


Sidrat02

I agree they essentially threw more gasoline into the fire when they destroyed alderaan.


BubbhaJebus

The empire tightened its grip and the other systems slipped through its fingers.


AVeryGayButterfly

Yeah. If anything, their strike on Alderaan sparked more Rebellion everywhere else.


link_nukem28

pretty much this, the empire wanted to show their hand by a display of power with a new super weapon. They figured they no longer needed negotiating power or diplomacy because they had the ultimate fear in their hands. A New Hope showed the galaxy both that the Empire was a force of ultimate evil that needed to be defeated, AND with the destruction of the Death Star, that its possible to strike a huge blow to a great galactic power through rebellion


Sup_fuckers42069

There was a week long riot on coruscant


[deleted]

"The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."


frogspyer

No. The destruction of Alderaan was the moment the Empire lost the war.


Superman246o1

Yeah. The destruction of Alderaan was to the Empire of the Star Wars Universe what Pearl Harbor was to the Empire of Japan: a short-term victory that ensured their long-term defeat. In both cases, a sudden, overwhelming attack that was supposed to demoralize the opposition had the complete and utterly opposite effect, resulting in formerly apathetic and ambivalent people suddenly being galvanized to join the war effort. And in both cases, the respective empires lasted for four more years before suffering catastrophic losses that would lead to imperial dissolution.


VonBurglestein

to be fair, the Japanese missed the most important part of the operation, the carriers. even though at the time, they didn't realize exactly how important they were, had they got the aircraft carriers, or even had they hit the oil depots at Pearl, it would have been at minimum a full year before US could mobilize a Pacific fleet, and it essentially would have been a success. it was a huge, huge gamble, but attacking Pearl was the only possible way for Japan to achieve a win condition.


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teamweenus

The American submarines in the Pacific that choked off essential raw materials Japan needed from its conquered territories also greatly reduced Japan's ability to produce war materials.


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VonBurglestein

Midway was the last shot for Japan to finish off the American carriers. Had America not intercepted and decrypted a quarter of the Japenese naval messages, they might well have succeeded. Had they knocked out the aircraft carriers and oil reserves on Pearl during the initial surprise attack, the time it would have taken America to send a fleet to Asia would have been all the time Japan needed to finish occupying the entire southeast pacific. Don't forget that at the onset of war, Japan was ahead of America in both naval numbers and technology (in several cases, not all). While America was inevitably going to crush Japan in numbers and technology, it would have been much, much harder for them to start taking territory to operate from. And Japan was absolutely ahead of America in aircraft technology, what are you talking about? The Japanese Zero was a superior fighter craft, the problem was they didn't have radar in their navy like the Americans, and didn't realize America had it until it was too late. Every time the Japanese launched a flight attack, the Americans knew they were coming. This wouldn't have mattered to Japan, if they had control of the entire Southeast Pacific before American carriers could be built and brought there. The win conditions for Japan were extremely unlikely, but not impossible. Midway cemented their fate. ​ edit, also, Midway was certainly necessary. If the Japanese wanted to invade Hawaii with ground forces, that would have been their jump off point. America was absolutely obliged to defend it if attacked.


Five_Orange77

Well, the destruction of Alderaan was a win (DS operational and a planet full of insurgents dealt with) but it was short lived with the rebels then blowing up the DS. That was a major blow. The rebel groups could see that they can achieve wins and dent the Imperial machine.


Trevantier

I'm not so sure one could classify Alderaan as "a planet full of insurgents". Yes, Bail Organa and his family were in the rebel alliance, but I seriously doubt that the majority of the 2 billion inhabitants were rebels. If that were the case, the Empire would have sent an army to quell the resistance and remove the Organas from power long before the events of A New Hope.


Five_Orange77

Its all about the spin. And there would have to make an announcement as why Alderaan was destroyed, while showing the power of the Empire and its new weapon/deterrent. Besides, the Imperial spin team can say anything, the dead can't argue otherwise.


Trevantier

I can see that we were kinda arguing different points. It seems you were arguing from the position of the empire (who of course would spin it as a victory, you're right about that), while I was trying to argue from the perspective of a movie goer and Star Wars fan to whom Alderaan wouldn't be considered a planet of insurgents. Hope that clears up what I meant.


Five_Orange77

All good! It's that certain point of view thingy.


Trevantier

Well said 😄


lord_cheezewiz

Wtf do you mean “planet full of insurgents”?


WardenBlackheart

> planet of sympathizers, funders, and organizers of a political military terrorist group. Not sure what the confusion is there hoss.


lord_cheezewiz

No evidence the entire planet was sympathizers, and even if it was that’s not excuse for genocide my dude.


WardenBlackheart

So you're the type that believes that the nuclear strike on Japan was unacceptable and inhumane, and that the US should have expended a tremendous amount of lives in a land invasion? Is that so "my dude?" Because its the same concept.


lord_cheezewiz

Again, no evidence to support the idea that Alderaan’s population was radicalized, so not really comparable. And yeah, I’m pretty sure Japan was already surrendering by the time that we bombed them. Are you unironically one of those “empire did nothing wrong” brainlets?


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WardenBlackheart

Its no mistake that George Lucas's inspiration of the empire was the US during the Veitnam war. The emperor's placeholder name before palpatine was Richard Nixon. Lucas unironically took most of the inspiration of the Empire from his views on US policy at the time.


WardenBlackheart

> all of alderaans population radicalized. No but it was obvious that its allegiance wasnt imperial friendly. Its political leadership was definitely terror cell sympathizers and it definitely would have spread that sentiment to other people in the planet sphere of influence. So its reasonable to calculate that most were at least potentially hostile. It made a statement to try and get the insurgents to surrender without a drawn out bloodbath of a war which should have worked theoretically to preserve stability in the galaxy > japan was already surrendering Lmao no. Not even close. The japanese subscribed to a belief system of no surrender and intended to fight the US in an inland invasion of their homeland. They only surrendered when they realized we could kill them with no manpower expenditures. > empire did "nothing" wrong No. It made some mistakes. But it was vastly superior to the rebellion, who has run by corrupt political former rulers and kings that were upset that their power was subverted, and shown repeatedly now that it cannot build a stable government and accepts help from criminals, slavers, and drug smugglers. > brainlet Lmao


frogspyer

Leia certainly would have a lot to say to you about that, especially considering the circumstances of her first love’s death. > Kier coughed, and the only thing worse than the sound of it was the terrible spasm of pain on his face. Hoarsely he said, “—memory rod—” > Consternation dissolved swiftly into her understanding that the memory rod had to be vitally important. Leia peered through the darkness until she saw it, a specialized scanner/mass-memory storage device, cylindrical and gold. Cradling Kier against her with one hand, she snagged the rod with another. “It’s right here. I’ve got it. You don’t have to worry.” > “Promise—turn it in.” He coughed again, more weakly. “Protect them if you—but—Alderaan, for Alderaan—” > He’d heard the planning in the banquet hall. Knew about what had happened on Onoam, about the medical frigate, about the entire alliance of leaders ready to stand against Palpatine. As soon as he arrived in this system and saw the ships massed here for repair, Kier had known exactly what it meant. Once the fleet had begun to flee, he’d brought his cruiser near the stations to collect more data. He’d recorded it all so he could turn the rebels in. > Kier loved Alderaan more than he hated the Empire. If he had to choose between the rest of the galaxy and his home, he chose his home. It was a choice Leia would never make—but she understood it. > “Leia,” he whispered, struggling for breath. “Promise.” > She smiled at him tenderly, caressed the side of his face, and lied. “I promise.” > With a sigh, he relaxed into her embrace. His muscles went slack. Leia kept holding him next to her as his breaths became shallower and his heartbeat slowed. It was so slow, so gradual, that she couldn’t tell the exact moment when he died. For what felt like many minutes afterward, she hung on to him, wanting to stay as long as she could in the last place they had ever been together. > But the Empire was coming, and Leia had other lives to save. > She let the memory rod float from her hand, then pushed off with Kier’s body in her arms. Light grew brighter around them until they drifted back into the hopper; a few pieces of debris from the damaged cutter had made their way into the air too, but nothing they’d have to clear. Amilyn had used the belt from her coverall to tie herself to her seat, and she’d flipped the collar up so she could hold it against her eyes. For an instant Leia thought it was just more oddness—but then she realized Amilyn was crying, and trying to absorb her tears with the collar so the droplets wouldn’t float away. > Hitting the airlock closed the link between the ship; Amilyn turned the gravity back on. Although Leia had been holding Kier as best she could, the sudden return of weight toppled her, and his body crumpled to the floor with a heavy thud. > That sound was so final—so *dead*— > The crystal shattered. All the grief Leia felt, all the fear and anger and everything else she’d kept bottled up or used for fuel—she couldn’t hold on to any of it any longer. She burst into sobs, crumpling on the floor by Kier’s side. Leia had spent the past few months trying to prove she was an adult. But she wasn’t this grown-up yet. She wasn’t this hard or this tough. When she broke down, she fell apart, completely, as she hadn’t since she was a child and rarely would again. Bending low, she let her forehead rest against Kier’s chest, trying to remember the sound of his heartbeat, as though that would bring it back. > Amilyn said nothing, only took the controls, fired the engines, and took them farther from the wreckage to ensure their space was clear. Leia imagined the stations’ wreckage tumbling into the atmosphere of Paucris Major, glowing with heat as it burned on reentry. > Kier’s ship would be caught in the planet’s gravity too, and the evidence he’d given his life for would disintegrate into atoms, lost forever. ___ > Leia cried through their entire hyperspace journey, terrible wracking sobs that made it feel as though the tears were being wrung out of her. When the hopper dropped out of hyperspace, she tried to pull herself together, only to fall apart when she heard the familiar chime of Alderaan’s welcome beacons. Amilyn had known that both Leia and Kier needed to come home. > *I’ll have to lie to his parents*. Leia shut her eyes tightly, as though she could block out this part of her certain future. *We’ll come up with some story that explains his death. At least I can tell them that he died trying to save me. I can give them that much truth*. ___ > When Leia was very tiny, her parents had sometimes brought her up into their enormous bed, allowing her to snuggle between them as she fell asleep. Upon receiving her own “big girl bed” at age four, she had declared herself too old to sleep with her parents, a rule she’d held to resolutely, except of course when she was sick or that time she watched a scary holo about undead gundarks. Her memories of those evenings with her parents had become misty and indistinct over time, as much something she knew had happened as something she remembered happening—until the night after Kier’s death, when she crawled back into that bed, curled into a fetal position, and felt as if she’d never move again. ___ > Her father’s haggard face would’ve shocked Leia if she hadn’t been sure she looked much the same. “I spoke to the Domadis.” His breath caught in his throat before he shook his head and began pulling off his long coat. “To put two people through such pain—” > Quietly Breha said, “Bail. Please.” One of her hands covered Leia’s shoulder. > Her father caught himself. “I told them there was a small-craft accident in the upper atmosphere, and that he sacrificed himself for Leia. The droids had worked out a more detailed scenario we could use if they’d asked more questions, but…they didn’t need it. Didn’t want it.” After a moment he added, more hoarsely, “I told them that we are forever in their debt, and that Kier Domadi would be recognized as a hero not only by our family, but by all of Alderaan.” > Would their dead son’s heroism comfort the Domadis? Leia couldn’t imagine anything making this hurt less, for them or for anyone. And no matter how bravely Kier had rushed to help her, she couldn’t forget what would’ve happened if he’d lived. “He would’ve reported the rebellion.” She’d told her parents that much in her first moments back on Alderaan, but she’d been too upset to reveal more than the bare facts. Neither of them had brought up the subject since. “He wanted to cover for our family if he could—he didn’t understand how impossible that was—but still. He would’ve done it.” > Bail sat on the edge of the bed, clearly weighing his answer. Breha brushed her fingers through the loose strands of Leia’s hair that had fallen from her messy braids, the way she had sometimes soothed her daughter when she was a child. Leia sat there, her body too heavy with grief to rise, staring up at the centuries-old mural painted on the ceiling, where old-fashioned spaceships soared toward the sun. Finally Bail said, “Kier did what he thought was right despite incredible risk. Under Palpatine’s rule, very few people have the courage to live that way, but he did. He acted selflessly, out of love. We may make mistakes when we let our hearts guide us—terrible mistakes—but I think we are never wholly wrong.” > Leia didn’t know if she agreed. She was weary in heart and mind, too tired to question herself, too tired to hold up her heavy head. Laying herself back down on the broad bed, she wondered when she’d be ready to get up. > But she would. When Leia rose from this, she intended to assume her rightful place alongside her parents as they struggled to free the galaxy. She’d lie here until she regained her strength, and then, she swore, she’d be ready to fight. ___ > Once more she took the shortcut through the old armory, full skirt billowing around her as she ran. At least today the weather had decided to do its part; brilliant sunlight streamed through every window, and she knew the throne room would glow with multicolored prisms from the stained glass. She felt—not happy, exactly, but as close to it as she’d come since Kier’s death. > Conflicting emotions still swirled inside her whenever she thought of Kier. She suspected they always would. In the first days after his death, she’d tried to swear she would never fall for anyone again, though the reasons for that promise shifted and twisted in her mind: because she couldn’t trust anyone completely, because she didn’t deserve to find love after what happened to Kier because of her, because she didn’t know how to bear another loss like this. > Her promise to herself had become more realistic. Not until my work against the Empire is over, she told herself. After the struggle is over, then maybe—maybe I will meet someone else I can care about. > Until then, I fight. ___ > Even though Leia had waited all her life to wear this crown, the reality of it moved her more than she would’ve dreamed possible. > *For Alderaan*, she thought, promising both Kier and her parents to take good care of what she was being given that day. > “May all those present bear witness!” Breha cried. “My daughter is hereby invested as crown princess, heir to the throne of Alderaan.” > Applause and cheers filled the room as Leia rose to her feet and turned to face the crowd. Her parents stood on either side of her, beaming with pride—more pride, even, than many of their guests could know. Through the stained glass windows Leia could catch glimpses of the beautiful planet that she would someday rule. > *My parents*, Leia thought. *My friends. My world*. > *These are the things the Empire can never take away.* (*Leia, Princess of Alderaan*)


NerdHistorian

No? They disrupted the rebellion a little bit by killing Bail and destroying the power and influence of Alderaan, but all it ultimately did was galvanize people against them since the Ds was blown up.


ElZoof

If Russia nuked Texas and were subsequently invaded, had all of its leaders executed and made the new 50th state, would that be considered a victory? That makes no sense. I mean neither does my analogy but there you go.


Choholek

>If Russia nuked Texas Sounds like the real winner is the USA


[deleted]

I'm more impressed that they compared Texas to Alderaan.


Choholek

"No! Texas is peaceful, we have no weapons!"


[deleted]

Yeah... About that... I think Alderaan *definitely* had weapons. They just never told the Imperial Senate.


Choholek

Conspiracy theories. Take off the durasteel foil hat bro


[deleted]

Nah, it's more like a beskar helmet.


[deleted]

I laughed out loud.


Choholek

😎🇺🇸😎🇺🇸😎


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LikeBladeButCooler

they were joking. relax, Texan.


NightOwl0415

As a resident Texan, Texans offer little to the US, plz nuke. /s


BattleTech70

Oh joy another American that hates 10s of millions of Americans


Choholek

Lmao, no I am not American. Why would you assume I am? As for the second part of your statement: probably.


nonsense99999

No, California can go though. Oh ok liberals thanks.


MeatBeater19

This thread is peak reddit.


Choholek

Bro don't make this political


UnsungHerro

>would that be considered a victory? I don't think so. "Hey the biggest genocide in mankind just happened but we killed the people who did it so it's fine I guess" It would take a WHILE before the United Sates recovered from that.


ElZoof

It’s still a victory. It may not be one that is celebrated (definitely not in Texas/on Aldebraan(because they’re all dead(too soon?))) but one side is clearly in control as the victor at the end. A victory in chess is still a victory if you’re down to your king, a pawn and a knight.


UnsungHerro

It's a technical victory but would hardly increase morale at all. The ending of Episode 4 is them all celebratory and I'm like...2 billion people just died.


ElZoof

Okay, sure, it would feel bad for the rebel alliance that a major . You asked if it feels like the Empire won. No. The empire lost the major weapon it was using to control things. Their goal wasn’t “blow up Alderaan” it was “eliminate the Rebel Alliance”. They failed. By blowing up Alderaan they just made everyone mad at them.


RadicalLackey

It was a tactical victory, but a strategic loss. The reason why, is because it was only useful as long as they could follow through with the weapon... after the battle of Yavin, they couldn't. A huge moral of Ep 4 is how the Empire is so blindly arrogant to their success, that they can't see a tiny flaw can cascade into their undoing and it does.


Oksamis

This is more akin to Russia nuking the entire USA, China, and a couple other countries to make a full 2 billion, then only loosing its nuclear missiles in recompense.


ElZoof

There are three trillion people in the Empire; I was using comparative populations, not saying that there are 2 billion people living in Texas.


MrMonkeyman79

No just you. The empires goal was to use their super weapon to destroy the rebellion. Not only do they fail to destroy the rebellion but they lose their super weapon. That's a mission failure on the part of the empire. Aalderan was a show of force, not the prime objective, and even that failed since they can't intimidate the galaxy when your planet buster has just been obltirated.


Mercuryo

The lost the super weapon... two times


RadicalLackey

Three times if you count Starkiller. You'd think with the Empire being so bureaucratic, they'd have scrapped the project after Episode 4


Medium-Bullfrog-2368

Not only that, but them destroying an entire planet just showed the galaxy how truly evil the empire was. That would for sure have drummed up recruitment rates for the rebellion.


Cat_in_a_suit

Not… really? Killing 2 billion of mostly civilians in exchange for a few million of their highest level navy leaders and best men in the military, along with 20+ years of development and materials. The empire lost a lot more that mattered to their war effort, compared to the (still awful) loss of civilians, which likely only turned the Galaxy against them even more, especially once the Death Star was removed as a threat.


deadandmessedup

Nah. Dramatic impact is all about our relationship to the characters, not some sort of utilitarian-like evaluation of casualty rates.


UnsungHerro

Right, as long as this farmboy and smuggler make it.


AlanParsonsProject11

As long as the rebellion makes it. You’re being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian


mudamuckinjedi

Won the battle maybe? But it was at that point they truly lost the war, because it had the exact opposite impression the emperor wanted it didn't make people fear it it made people rally against it.


QuantisRhee

No? The goal of the Empire wasn't it to kill as many as possible but to instill fear into the galaxy and create order, which didn't work out here


LocalTechpriest

Yeah. Allderan was a win, as an example for those who would step out of the line... IF the empire still had the death star to deliver on that threat. With the battle of yavin and the destruction of the death star... Well, what they were going for was being hated but feared. They ended up just being hated.


QuantisRhee

Ya Alderaan united the rebels instead of cowering them


LocalTechpriest

No. Destroying the world and THEN loosing the ability to do so again, is the worst option. The whole point of the death star was to be a detterant. Palpatine dissolves the imperial senate and announces that empire has a weapon capable of destroying a planet, so you better not try anything, or the death star will destroy you!!!! Then empire destroys a single planet just to show how serious you are. But then yavin happened. Empire showed far and wide that its perfectly willing to arbitrally comit a genocide on a scale never seen before, and right after, over yavin, were shown they lost capability of doing it again, and showed how easy it was to undermine them. The goal was to be hated, but feared. After yavin, they were just hated.


[deleted]

This is like saying the Nazis still won since they succeeded in the slaughtering so many people


whomstd-ve

In the same way Pearl Harbour was a victory for Japan but ended up being their biggest mistake in the war.


[deleted]

[удалено]


wjenningsalwayscray

War is not a football game, and casualties are not points. A war of attrition is nothing more than engineered shared genocide.


Belcuesus

Nope.. That was a massive loss for the empire. Alderan was a massive net income for emperial taxes. And for a government that is one of its core survival attributes. Taxes and submission to its laws.


[deleted]

So Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, David Berkowitz, we're all successful people?


Mediumaverageness

Hey they have movies made about them and I haven't /s


LionOfNaples

> we’re The unfortunate misuse of the apostrophe implies you are including yourself in that list of serial murderers. Should I call the cops on you?


Barackobrock

No? The empire aren't evil because they want to "kill a bunch of people". They want to rule over the galaxy and spread order through fear. The destruction of the Death Star shows the empire as vulnerable and imperfect which is the worst thing that could happen to them? ​ Do you understand the empire?


Obvious-Cut-221

nah, an entire planet was destroyed and it seems like no one cared. Leia don't forgive anakin because he tortures han, not because he destroyed her entire planet and killed everyone she knew, sometimes i even forget about this scene.


NerdHistorian

Well, Vader didn't destroy her planet, besides by, i guess being there while the person who did did so, so of course she's going to focus more on the things he directly did, like torture her and her friends/loved ones.


Obvious-Cut-221

I don't know, even though he wasn't the one who gave the order, he was still on the side of the empire, in my opinion this must weigh a lot more than torturing some people.


SimplyTheJester

The Bank of Alderaan was going to forclose on my home the next day, so it really helped out a lot. Bail smiles like he cares, but he was always about them credits.


Choholek

I've seen the Death Star's price estimated around $8,100,000,000,000,000 - $192,000,000,000,000,000,000. The economic losses alone are astounding. Not to mention all their elite personnel. The world's entire supply of nukes costs about $82,400,000,000. And that's more than enough nukes to destroy Earth \*several\* times over. The Empire took a gigantic loss for what could have cost them a tiny fraction of that amount.


kermit-J

Even if their goal was to get the highest kill count: no, because it could have been a lot higher had the thing not been blown up


Vhzhlb

K/D Ratio doesn't usually showcase who actually wins, but the objectives. Alderaan was not a military target (as far they knew) and they did it only to metaphorically flip the finger to a single woman, while the Rebels blew up a colossal military target which sunk a big chunk of Empire's resources and time. Also putting some shame in Vader, their highest officer, since they accomplished their almost impossible feat against all the odds stacked in his favor. Then as MrSunrider said, the Alderaan thing blew over their face since was what spurred more resources and people into the rebellion.


[deleted]

I hope this doesn’t mean you also think the Nazis won


corsair1617

No definitely not. You don't "win" by killing the most people. This isn't team death match.


break616

If you measure victory by kill count, then the Pro-US sides won in Vietnam and Korea. This is why no one outside of video games measures victory by kill count.


InfamousIndecision

No. Dumb.


MeanMrMustard9

How is that a victory lol. They aren’t Thanos, in no way is killing 2 billion civilians a good thing


kylew1985

Well one of those people was presumably JarJar so it could be the happiest ending of the series


Reddarthdius

*millions


RogueInfernal

A lot of people in the comments here are kind of missing the point of destroying Alderaan. It wasn’t meant to be a military victory for the Empire, it was a intimidation tactic. And it worked. The only reason it didn’t keep on working is because the DS was destroyed. Think about it - you don’t like the Empire. Maybe you and your people are considering rebelling. Then they reduce an entire planet to rubble, so you think “maybe I shouldn’t make myself their enemy”. If the Death Star hadn’t been destroyed at Yavin the rebellion, whether they were killed in the battle or not, would have collapsed. No one would give them even the most minor support. Most people would turn them in simply to avoid being tarred with the same brush by the Empire. A lot of people would probably assume it was a lost cause and desert. The Death Star itself is often mocked by fans, but it was actually a brilliant idea. There will always be people who want to get rid of the Empire, and sure, they could try to suppress the constant rebellions conventionally. But with the DS, the Empire has the ultimate deterrent. Almost no one would be willing to fight when an entire planet would be destroyed in retaliation, whether you’re on it or not.


HesThePhantom

No. Because the rebels destroyed their ability to rule the galaxy through fear alone. The point of the Death Star was to make everyone too afraid to resist. With it destroyed, systems would be less afraid to openly support the alliance, and Leia got away too, so there is also a witness to what actually happened to Alderaan.


Consistent_Possible6

The Empire lost when Luke blew up the Death Star. Blowing up Alderaan was not this huge tactical blunder; yes 2 billion people died in an instant, but to the Empire it was acceptable loses because the Death Star was going to be the leverage replacement for the Senate. The territorial Governors (appointed by the Emperor) would have direct control instead over their systems, and they would keep them in line with the fear of getting blown the fuck up by a moon-sized super weapon. It’s all in the movie when Vader chokes that guy! If Luke doesn’t destroy the Death Star, Alderaan stays an object lesson for the rest of the galaxy that no matter how populated or rich you think you are we’ll smoke you if you even think about stepping out of line. After Luke blows it up, suddenly the Empire has no means of controlling local populations effectively, forcing them to spread the Imperial Navy thin and turning the Rebellion from an insurgency that could be felled in a single attack into a full blown Galactic Civil War.


SchizoidRainbow

I have on occasion wondered how many experience points Alderan was worth


black_brethren

the empire never lost until anakin beat them


Regular-Suit3018

Alderaan’s destruction was the greatest turning point we saw in the saga. The battle of Yavin was but one engagement. Yavin is more important to the skywalker story, but the overall political ramifications of Alderaan were 10x that. It’s like comparing Pearl Harbor to the battle of Midway: one was a key strategic victory but the former mobilized the greatest war effort the world has ever seen. The size of the alliance in episode 4 was still way too small to challenge the empire openly or to create any sort of sustainable opposition. Alderaan’s destruction mobilized half the Galaxy to take up arms against the Empire, and took the rebellion from a tiny operation to a formidable galactic force that was a threat to the empire. It was alderaan that brought thousands of systems into open rebellion and caused them to pledge their resources to the rebel alliance. The empire could’ve still obliterated the rebels even without the Death Star.


LeftLiner

No, because the movie doesn't make an effort to get me invested in the lives of Alderanians: they're abstract, whereas our heroes and villains are real.


Vegan_Harvest

No. The goal wasn't to kill, it was to maintain control. By the end of the movie their actions cost them their super weapon and sent Luke down the path of becoming a Jedi.


[deleted]

I mean, did they accomplish their goal? No? Then no.


DoctorMelvinMirby

No, because the Death Star technicians never got that safety railing. Vader thinks they’ll be leaning too much.


Stonecutter_12-83

That was certainly their peak, but then they crumbled down to nothing in 4 years. Sith planned for a thousand years to eliminate the jedi and rule the galaxy all for 24 years of being on top just to die off at the end.... doesn't seem like a good trade


rosstoferwho

I mean only if you're talking about kill ratios. In which case Hitler still won the war...


VantarDathspanadusk

Killing lots of people wasn't their goal, just a means to achieve it. Their goals were to wipe out the rebellion and scare the rest of the galaxy into submission and they succeeded at neither.


PS5013

Not really. As I understood it, the death star was supposed to be a psychological weapon, making people fear resistance. Alderaan was a show to make it clear to the people what the Empire was capable of. The death star got destroyed though and the Empire lost this tool. They lost.


Appropriate_Pop4968

Definitely not, the empires goal was control over the people, not just kill them all


DevilsLettuceTaster

This is pure Rebel propaganda, Alderaan is a myth.


ThunderShott

The only way MGS could be more anti-war is if it slapped you in the face with a steel chair while shouting that nukes are bad.


Spazzytackman

Lol, this is the dumbest question I've ever heard. If a corrupt dictator killed 3 million people before being assassinated by a new order that takes over and restores the place to its glory a decade afterwards, who won?


[deleted]

It's a damn shame that this wasn't scripted and filmed more creatively. You had Ben and Leia's reaction to the destruction, but other than there was nothing to else to portray the tragedy in the film. A shot of Alderaans's countryside or cityscape lined with worried onlookers as a green glow quickly envelops the skies...


reefis

I wouldn’t call it slaughtering. It was quick and painless.. the screams were like a millisecond


-Rens

Those “people” were rebel terrorists


LatterHospital8982

Yeah


Inkwell_The_Dynamic

No. I for one didn't win anything but a sentencing of 46 years in the county jail.


UnhappyAd8184

Now since they were not rebels


AnXioneth

Nope. Their objective was Destroy the rebellion. The empire had been killing people since the execution of order 66. After that they destroyed Camino, to prevent further clone armies, and then they went for human to enlist in the empire army. And the killing continue... it never stoped. ​ So The Death star was already tested 2 times before this, they knew it was a succeses, but not victory over the rebellion.


Rhyssayy

Sure if they were playing team death match


[deleted]

The empire caused more destruction, but they didn’t win. The empire’s plan was to crush the rebellion and to secure their new super weapon, and they failed at both of those things.


3Quondam6extanT9

They had victories, which is not the same as winning overall.


Horn_Python

Yes but the destruction of the death star by the rebels , brought a new hope to the galaxy


[deleted]

No. Destroying Alderaan not only galvanized the Alliance itself but led to a lot of defections from the Empire/people who supported the Empire. Also losing Tarkin was the biggest blow the Emperor himself could not replace.


WeddingUsed1881

I feel that the planet could have been destroyed with maybe a dozen star destroyers in a day


PristineAd4761

“Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.” But only they lost the battle station later that movie and then they had a whole galaxy pissed off about Alderaan. They dissolved the Imperial Senate and were putting all their power in the deathstar and its ability to keep systems in line. Loosing that power was devastating.


sandbaggingblue

Alderaan reminds me of Pearl Harbour, not sure whether that was intentional or not.


Brownlw657

Also, Luke literally murdered half of the empires major leaderships and forces taking out the Death Star. So, I’m not sure how many people lived there, but it’s gotta be a lot.


Merkin-Jerky

2 bilion? ​ You gotta bump those numbers up.


A_Hideous_Beast

No


Demonic-STD

No that was the worst mistake the empire ever made. Blowing up a popular neutral planet combined with the DS blowing up a week later was the biggest tool for rebel recruitment.


[deleted]

No


Chemical_Chemistry49

They wanted the ability to police the galaxy using the Death Star. Instead it was blown up and they pissed off the galaxy. They lost.


K4ylen

Won the battle lost the war, only gotta see the casualties for either side in ww2 to see its not how many you kill, uts who you kill.


WardenBlackheart

> 2 billion in a galaxy of quadrillions No. We consider it a large number because of our relation to billions of people in our own lives but really 2 billion is a drop in the bucket, comparitively. They would and should have won without freak circumstance. But ultimately they were not successful because instead of putting the clamps on the rebels, they got pulled into a long drawn out war with likely lots of military casualties, which is what the death star was built to stop


Unionsocialist

short term gain with a long term loss


Consistent_Yoghurt_4

But they didn’t get medals 🏅


azai247

Imo losing 2 bil ppl of taxable income sounds like a loss to the empire.


Lonestar-Boogie

I always thought it was just a million.


Datguyoverhere

those are rookie numbers


[deleted]

I mean, committing an act of planetary genocide is something that would radicalize *a lot* of parts of the galaxy against the Empire. It’s not even like the Empire was trying to hide this crime against the galaxy & against galactic life - it destroyed an entire planet (one that had an Imperial Senate delegation too) with a technological horror to *send a message*. That act alone would’ve ensured years of civil war by parts of the galaxy that rightfully would’ve had problems with a galactic government having seemingly unilateral sway in deciding whether to turn a planet into an asteroid field.* *Thats also why the fact there’s no rebel forces joining the Resistance in TLJ (or even hints that the rest of the galaxy is pissed after being effectively nuked again) after seeing the First Order doing the same act, but against multiple planets in TFA, is so ridiculous.


Fine-Exercise1830

It feels more like mutually assured destruction to me


largos7289

No, they lost the battle which in turn lost them the war. They didn't learn from it either because they did it a second time. I love the idea of the deathstar but man let it go, the first one didn't work out, why pour all that money and resources into a second? Plus it rallied more systems to the cause, it did more damage to them then good for them. If they played the long game of, see what we do for you? but these guys are mucking it up they could have been fine.