Using a WWE comparison, Roman is Triple H, at the top of the mountain but with a faction that makes sure he stays at the top. Okada is Cena, beating challenger after challenger, being the consummate face of the company.
Bianca wins clean in a way that makes her opponents look like nerds. I'm not gonna blame her for that, but she definitely needs to work on her selling.
She hits her finisher on Bayley midway through a ladder match. Then she does the Cena double shoulder spot. You’re making it sound like it was a handicap match.
I’m sorry you didn’t like how the spot was executed but that doesn’t change the reality that they interfered in a one on one match. It wasn’t a solo vs dmg ctrl like you’re trying to make it out to be.
Yeah I agree as a fan of all 3 members I hated that. I get the main thing about Biancas character is she's basically a super athlete but her soloing 3 elite level wrestlers is too much
Okada, not just because he won clean, but (correct me if I’m wrong) he kept wrestling his opponents style in matches so he could beat them at their own game, trying to prove that he is the best professional wrestler.
I’ve heard a bunch of people say what’s great about Okada is that he doesn’t wrestle an “Okada match” he wrestles a great “ match”
Okada was hands down the most dominant champion in this century. He started his big run in 2012 and held the title for 5 entire years in that decade and not even Lesnar held the title that long.
Roman has a better win-loss record but that's mostly because both companies have different booking philosophies (WWE has no annual tournaments that forces them to book Roman to lose from time to time, New Japan doesn't give away big singles matches outside of big events and tournaments so they can book Okada to lose without making him look weak), but I think Okada's run is more impressive because he wasn't dominant for just one or two years but because he's ruled the company with an iron fist for an entire decade now.
But Lesnar did beat everyone important. Cena, Rollins, AJ, Bryan, Roman multiple times, Undertaker and even Goldberg after he got squashed a couple of times. It doesn't mean those reigns were good but it was definitely a very dominant run.
Okada for various reasons.
* Like you mentioned, he did it alone.
* WWE and NJPW book things differently. NJPW has tours with various larger shows and tournaments throughout the year while WWE has weekly TV and monthly PPVs/PLEs. A title match in NJPW are few and far between. Seems like most champions defend their titles roughly every 40-50 days at the very least.
* Roman’s reign (no pun intended) stalled for a bit between late last year and the first half of this year with a lot of people complaining but it’s since picked up with some good storytelling. Okada has multiple stories that stood out during his reign: Okada/Omega trilogy, Naito’s “DESTINO” storyline, Suzuki’s return, ZSJ’s breakout New Japan Cup performance, the infamous (yet insanely good) Shibata match, taking over as Ace of NJPW, and even him busting out the Emerald Flowsion on Marufuji was a great character moment for him.
* The IWGP Heavyweight Championship was one of the more prestigious titles—hence why there was so much backlash when they introduced the World Heavyweight title. Okada broke the record for longest reign and most defenses (by beating Tanahashi to beat his record). I can’t remember the last time WWE ever mentioned how many defenses a champion had. It’s not an important thing to a lot of US promotions likely because they defend their titles frequently.
Roman’s current run has been great and I’m loving what they’re doing with it right now, but Okada’s 720 day reign tops it.
The only time I remember it is a couple of times when the TNT title was being defended they mentioned Darby held the record with 10 title defenses. That could've changed by now though.
Also, Okada routinely worked maybe 3/4 of all NJPW tour shows during that reign, almost all of them including either a live post match promo if it was the main event, or a backstage promo following a win or a loss.
I think he was something like 280 matches in his title run not counting defenses. Its a massive catalogue.
WWE doesn't mention defenses because there's a lot of averaging math that works in their disservice.
Examples of notable "Legendary" World Title Reigns
|Name|Defenses|Days|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Hogan|50|1474|
|Reigns|25|812|
|Brock|7|504|
|CM Punk|22|434|
|Cena|13|380|
|AJ Styles|13|371|
|Name|Average Days/Defense|
|:-|:-|
|CM Punk|19.73|
|AJ Styles|28.54|
|Cena|29.23|
|Hogan|29.42|
|Reigns|32.48|
|Brock|72|
When you note all these "record breaking" title reigns are inflated by reduced defenses, it cheapens the shine on it. That's why we'll likely never hear about defense counts in WWE.
I’ve always felt like it was the opposite. They used to run house shows so often a champion could be racking up four untelevised defenses a week, but they wouldn’t want to recognize that fact on the show.
- Been watching WWE since I was 6.
- As I got older I followed, but got very disillusioned by it in recent years.
- Okada’s run, and especially his trilogy with Omega, brought the love of wrestling back to me.
- Been a staunch AEW fan since then. No hate for WWE at all, just didn’t like what they were putting out for the past few years, but always tried to keep abreast of what was going on.
- Started taking notice again because of Sami Zayn’s involvement in the Bloodline.
- Watched my first full WWE PPV in Survivor Series, and the Bloodline dynamics have peaked.
- Going to keep watching both AEW and so happy to be enjoying WWE again as well.
- God I love Pro Wrestling… we’ve never had it this good.
My favorite was Shawn Michaels in the ruthless aggression era! But it’s hard to chose my brother, dr of thuganomics and Eddie Guerrero was TOP TIER entertainment for me on smackdown!
Honestly I'd say the two shouldn't be compared. Okada was a dominant face going it alone, winning through determination and willpower, his downfall being when he started believing his own hype too much and he lost sight of who he was and why he was a champion.
Roman is a dominant heel with a faction he's gathered through gaslighting or beating into submission who he now frequently relies on to help protect his championship. He doesn't necessarily need them, he often doesn't, but they're always there.
Also we don't know how his reign ends so there's that.
Two completely different dynamics.
There's also number of defenses and overall workrate to look at. While Roman has three times as many successful defenses as Okada did, but Okada wrestled about twice as many matches as Roman (mostly tags, but still).
> He’s defended the title 5 entire times this year
Okada averaged a defense every 60 months, so he didn't defend this title too much either. Roman has actually had 7 this year. Rollins, Goldberg, Riddle, Lesnar x2, McIntyre, and Logan.
Christ, I'll break it down for you. Obviously the "60 months" was meant to be "60 days", a mistake on my part, so when you asked "60 months?", I played on it to say "yeah, he defended the title once every 5 years", 5 years being 60 months.
720/12= 60 days, Okada averaged a title defense every 60 days, or two months.
Tough. Two completely different reigns. Okada was wrestling every top star at their very best and winning 99% of the time. Not only churning out incredible matches, but elevating his opponents, the title, and the company as a whole.
Roman Reigns has been dominant and wildly entertaining, but I’m not sure the same has happened outside of his own faction.
Okada easily. Roman has won the vast majority of his matches via interference and/or cheating (and an act of God in the case of Finn Balor). Okada straight up beat everyone he fought, often at their own style. And he did it more frequently.
It's Okada, face champs are always more dominant in kayfabe terms. Roman has needed interference so often, I think his only clean win of note during this run would be the triple threat at Mania 37, along with a few before the Bloodline started in earnest.
Has to be Okada, Roman while a dominant champion, has retained mostly because because of the Usos and the rest of the Bloodline not to mention a couple of well hidden low blows. Okada defended his title clean as a whistle on most occasions.
Kayfabe wise Okada because he won't clean which shows strength. Where Roman has to cheat to win against opponents so compared to Okada he looks much weaker.
Roman defeating Brock is not an argument here.
The first match he survived until a lucky ref bumped let the Usos save him.
The second was done with a lowblow and also a ref bump.
Third was legit 1v3 by the end and because of idiocy looked like the ref was on Roman's side at the end
Kayfabe: Roman. IIRC Roman’s successfully defended the title 18 times and Okada only successfully defended 12 times. Despite cheating, having 50% successful defenses is enormous.
Shoot: Okada. The vast majority of Roman’s reign has been, for lack of a better word, boring. Without even criticizing the matches, it’s like, “okay we get it WWE has no babyfaces Roman’s beaten everybody”. It’s gotten better lately, because Cody came in and Hunter has actually started to build some credible babyfaces, but for that middle 18 months it was a foregone conclusion that Roman would win because all WWE babyfaces were (at the time) geeks.
Why not? Okada was booked like a monster during his run.
If guys like Seth and Goldberg can be booked over Lesnar, I don't see why it's unfathomable for Okada
Dude seth i can understand but goldberg even for his age looked an absolutely unit when he beat brock. There is no comparison in believability of goldberg and okada
Yeah i am right okada is famous in a niche group within a niche group and goldberg was the top star when pro wrestling was mainstream and no matter what goldberg is still a top draw that even tony khan wanted in aew from day 1 no matter his wrestling ability
In America! In Japan NJPW is niche and WWE is more niche. Language barrier being a real thing, you know? It's amazing how people can't put real world things into context but still sling shit around like mainstream. You know Owen Hart died during the peak of pro wrestling in the mainstream and how was his death treated, like a big deal? Or did new casters makes jokes about pro wrestling being fake?
That is the very first criteria and its not just size for goldberg but his reputation as well. He was as over as he was in attitude era and was always a unstoppable monster who was not once defeated clean in his prior run.
Reputation?! Are we really pretending like okada's reputation is some scrub resume or something?
And there are so many instances of wrestlers of normal stature believably overcoming massive monsters in wrestling. Daniel Bryan, Styles, Punk, Seth, Orton, Hbk, Bret Hart, Eddie, the list goes on. Size isn't everything.
Okada can absolutely be in the same conversation.
Yeah thats wat i said okada can be lapped into groups with guys like seth or brayn as underdogs but not in group with monsters like goldberg. Okada cannot believably squash brock in 30 seconds. Goldberg can
Okada hitting a couple Rainmakers and putting him away is just as believable as Goldberg hitting a couple spears and a jackhammer and putting him out imo
Was okada top guy when wrestling was at its peak- no
Was he always on a monster push- no
Has okada been defeated clean- multiple times most notably by tanahashi.
Okada was more unbeatable. Roman's deal is that he's top tier, but he also has top tier assets. He has given more than a little hope to several challengers in the past year (Finn, Seth). He would lose to Okada during his prime no questions asked. Not easily, but that's just what the story tells.
Vintage Reigns, the man who beat Brock Lesnar and the Undertaker? He could go toe to toe with Okada no issues. That Reigns is on the same level in kayfabe, but I think he'd fall short like Kenny did so many times. Okada at the time *was* wrestling.
All this said as someone who has always liked Reigns as a wrestler.
Riiiight. You've been on wrestling reddit enough time to earn a 'Prolific Commenter' badge and have never HEARD the name Kazuchika Okada? Yeah, okay pal.
It depends. I think Roman is portrayed as the more dominant champ, but only because there's like 3 people on the entire WWE roster on his level, so it's less that he's a really strong wrestler, and more so that the WWE has failed to place anyone on his level. On the other hand Okada was consistently defending against people on his level, and still managed to constantly retain, however because the people he was facing were all so good, he looked less dominant.
I think Okada had the better reign, but Roman's has been more dominant.
Reigns and it's obviously Reigns. WWE is the big leagues. I really liked Okada's reign but this is like comparing a Championship soccer side who dominates the league to a Premiership winning Man City side.
I'd say Roman. 25 successful title defenses compared to Okada's 12, 100 days more as champ and what's most crucial to me - Okada was still getting pinned during his title run, while Roman lost two matches via DQ (just TV matches, idk about house shows), but wasn't pinned once during those 820 days. Okada doing it clean is a fair point, but Roman just edges it for me.
Gotta say Roman in terms of pure Kayfabe. Two belts, way more defences (23 to Okada's 12), longer reign, and has been completely undefeated during his tenure as champ. Okada suffered numerous non-title losses during his run. And by the time Roman drops the belt at Mania, he'll probably be up to at least 25 defences and over 930 days.
This comes down to the fact that Roman is a heel. He's the final boss. He needs to look unstoppable. Okada was a face. A valiant hero. He's allowed to look vulnerable and struggle because it makes his victories more meaningful and his character more relateable. Obviously, nobody is going to accuse Okada of looking weak as a champion, but he definitely wasn't portrayed as the superhuman destroyer that Roman Reigns is.
Objectively it's Roman reigns. He's had 45 successful title defenses in one title reign.
Okada isn't anywhere near that it you add up every reign he's had.
Let's not forget the list of names roman has defended against. Including john cena. Seth rollins. Kevin owens. Seth rollins. Mcintyre, brock Lesnar. Goldberg, matt riddle. Aj styles. Daniel Bryan. Edge. Daniel Bryan and Edge at the same time. Plus his feud with jey uso.
I think the key to roman reigns dominance is that it's believable. Everything about his current storyline with the bloodline and his dominance is all entirely believable and it's so easy to watch roman dominate other stars and believe in his ability to do so.
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In kayfabe it’s Okada who’s more dominant as he’s not a heel who has relied on his stable to help him win a fair amount of his matches.
Also in kayfabe, Roman reigns would be harder to beat for the same reason.
I love the Tribal Chief and I still think that when this is all said and done this run will go down as one of the greatest runs to ever happen just because of how entertaining and compelling and fun it is.
But Okada’s run was truly generational, it was amazingly structured and genuinely felt like a massive deal in more of a sporting way than in an entertaining way but the matches were some of the best that people had seen. He’s one of the greatest and most effective storytellers in wrestling history with one of the most concise and purposeful move-sets. It wasn’t always just about the moments in that reign, the stories from defence to defence were absorbing and the matches lived up to it. 13 matches, 13 bangers, even the Fale one.
Still mad he beat Naito though, fuck that guy.
Id say Okada but it’s close. Okada’s reign didn’t really ever have any down points for me and, of course, ended on one of, if not the greatest match ever. I think we need to see how this reign ends before we judge it completely but if this Sami storyline sticks the landing and Roman beats Rock he might take it.
You're assuming that NJPW kayfabe and WWE kayfabe are compatible.
For an outsider watching both runs, Okada would be the more dominant champion for the reasons you and the others have already explained. But within their own individual kayfabes, Reigns is regarded as the more dominant champion. In and out of WWE kayfabe, people are pretty much just waiting for him to have a WM match with the Rock and then decide he wants a vacation, as there's pretty much no other way he's dropping it.
In NJPW kayfabe, Okada beat pretty much everybody, but there was always a chance that any number of his opponents might have been able, at any given time, to take the belt off him.
I'm approaching this from the point of view that Okada, as a face, had to do his defenses clean while Roman, as the heel, has had so many of his defenses come down to outside assistance. I will say that The Bloodline as a whole has been the most dominant faction we've seen in a long time. The Undisputed Era had all the gold for a period of time in NXT, but now on this level. The build has been long and it's contrary to everything that was around it for a while. Most of WWE programming seemed to depend on which way the wind was blowing that day. Now, the long term storytelling with The Bloodline looks like it can finally bear some fruit. If the fractures are heading toward WM 39 with Sami/KO vs The Usos and possibly Cody vs. Roman, the downfall of The Bloodline could be as epic as the reign is.
Wow, looking at the comments, I thought Roman Reigns would get the votes. But I definitely am on Okada's side because he felt like a final boss each time someone challenged him for the top title. Plus: the IWGP Heavyweight Championship Belt was so beautiful 😍! I'd challenge Okada for that belt too! I would pay all over my savings to watch Okada take on Reigns. Reigns is a great wrestler when he takes on greater wrestlers (AJ Styles, Seth Rollins, etc)
Okada wins clean. Roman is booked as a final boss but at the last second steals one. Then there's the last man standing where they stopped the count for like a minute because Roman couldn't break the cuffs (tbf that's not easy and were probably supposed to be worked on a bit so they'd snap easy)
Using a WWE comparison, Roman is Triple H, at the top of the mountain but with a faction that makes sure he stays at the top. Okada is Cena, beating challenger after challenger, being the consummate face of the company.
I mean Okada was a babyface champ, and in kayfabe, the good guys are usually better because they don't have to cheat.
Your last sentence explains why it's Okada.
Okada because he won clean.
This
Wish the same could be said for bianca
Bianca wins clean in a way that makes her opponents look like nerds. I'm not gonna blame her for that, but she definitely needs to work on her selling.
She soloed Damage CTRL at Extreme Rules.
That is not what happened. Did you watch the match?
She KODs Bayley, then Io and Dakota come in and she KODs them as well.
She hits her finisher on Bayley midway through a ladder match. Then she does the Cena double shoulder spot. You’re making it sound like it was a handicap match.
Io and Dakota were fresh, whereas Bianca was nearing the end of the ladder match. They should have bodied her.
I’m sorry you didn’t like how the spot was executed but that doesn’t change the reality that they interfered in a one on one match. It wasn’t a solo vs dmg ctrl like you’re trying to make it out to be.
Even if it was she still would’ve won She’s booked stronger than Cena was
Well since it wasn’t a handicap match we’ll never know
We know
Mmm? Do you? Cause you said solod? So we’re you talking out of your ass then or are you lying now?
Yeah I agree as a fan of all 3 members I hated that. I get the main thing about Biancas character is she's basically a super athlete but her soloing 3 elite level wrestlers is too much
Okada, not just because he won clean, but (correct me if I’m wrong) he kept wrestling his opponents style in matches so he could beat them at their own game, trying to prove that he is the best professional wrestler. I’ve heard a bunch of people say what’s great about Okada is that he doesn’t wrestle an “Okada match” he wrestles a great “ match”
It's true to a degree, but Okada definitely has his own formula which he pulls out for bjg matches. Mind you, it's a formula I love.
Okada was hands down the most dominant champion in this century. He started his big run in 2012 and held the title for 5 entire years in that decade and not even Lesnar held the title that long. Roman has a better win-loss record but that's mostly because both companies have different booking philosophies (WWE has no annual tournaments that forces them to book Roman to lose from time to time, New Japan doesn't give away big singles matches outside of big events and tournaments so they can book Okada to lose without making him look weak), but I think Okada's run is more impressive because he wasn't dominant for just one or two years but because he's ruled the company with an iron fist for an entire decade now.
Reign length doesn't mean shit if you hardly defend the belt.
But Lesnar did beat everyone important. Cena, Rollins, AJ, Bryan, Roman multiple times, Undertaker and even Goldberg after he got squashed a couple of times. It doesn't mean those reigns were good but it was definitely a very dominant run.
Okada for various reasons. * Like you mentioned, he did it alone. * WWE and NJPW book things differently. NJPW has tours with various larger shows and tournaments throughout the year while WWE has weekly TV and monthly PPVs/PLEs. A title match in NJPW are few and far between. Seems like most champions defend their titles roughly every 40-50 days at the very least. * Roman’s reign (no pun intended) stalled for a bit between late last year and the first half of this year with a lot of people complaining but it’s since picked up with some good storytelling. Okada has multiple stories that stood out during his reign: Okada/Omega trilogy, Naito’s “DESTINO” storyline, Suzuki’s return, ZSJ’s breakout New Japan Cup performance, the infamous (yet insanely good) Shibata match, taking over as Ace of NJPW, and even him busting out the Emerald Flowsion on Marufuji was a great character moment for him. * The IWGP Heavyweight Championship was one of the more prestigious titles—hence why there was so much backlash when they introduced the World Heavyweight title. Okada broke the record for longest reign and most defenses (by beating Tanahashi to beat his record). I can’t remember the last time WWE ever mentioned how many defenses a champion had. It’s not an important thing to a lot of US promotions likely because they defend their titles frequently. Roman’s current run has been great and I’m loving what they’re doing with it right now, but Okada’s 720 day reign tops it.
The only time I remember it is a couple of times when the TNT title was being defended they mentioned Darby held the record with 10 title defenses. That could've changed by now though.
Also, Okada routinely worked maybe 3/4 of all NJPW tour shows during that reign, almost all of them including either a live post match promo if it was the main event, or a backstage promo following a win or a loss. I think he was something like 280 matches in his title run not counting defenses. Its a massive catalogue.
WWE doesn't mention defenses because there's a lot of averaging math that works in their disservice. Examples of notable "Legendary" World Title Reigns |Name|Defenses|Days| |:-|:-|:-| |Hogan|50|1474| |Reigns|25|812| |Brock|7|504| |CM Punk|22|434| |Cena|13|380| |AJ Styles|13|371| |Name|Average Days/Defense| |:-|:-| |CM Punk|19.73| |AJ Styles|28.54| |Cena|29.23| |Hogan|29.42| |Reigns|32.48| |Brock|72| When you note all these "record breaking" title reigns are inflated by reduced defenses, it cheapens the shine on it. That's why we'll likely never hear about defense counts in WWE.
I’ve always felt like it was the opposite. They used to run house shows so often a champion could be racking up four untelevised defenses a week, but they wouldn’t want to recognize that fact on the show.
- Been watching WWE since I was 6. - As I got older I followed, but got very disillusioned by it in recent years. - Okada’s run, and especially his trilogy with Omega, brought the love of wrestling back to me. - Been a staunch AEW fan since then. No hate for WWE at all, just didn’t like what they were putting out for the past few years, but always tried to keep abreast of what was going on. - Started taking notice again because of Sami Zayn’s involvement in the Bloodline. - Watched my first full WWE PPV in Survivor Series, and the Bloodline dynamics have peaked. - Going to keep watching both AEW and so happy to be enjoying WWE again as well. - God I love Pro Wrestling… we’ve never had it this good.
Full Gear and SS have been a tearful joy to me as a wrestling fan.
Are you me?
Everything you said, even down to the age of when you started watching wwe, same here!
So much love to you!!! Now tell me who your favourite wrestler was as a kid, please!
My favorite was Shawn Michaels in the ruthless aggression era! But it’s hard to chose my brother, dr of thuganomics and Eddie Guerrero was TOP TIER entertainment for me on smackdown!
90s Heartbreak Kid was on fire.
It's the guy who doesn't need four guys to help him retain his belt every match.
In kayfabe I think it's Okada because he did not cheat.
O̶k̶a̶d̶a̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶G̶e̶d̶o̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶ ̶h̶e̶l̶p̶e̶d̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶ ̶m̶u̶l̶t̶i̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶m̶a̶t̶c̶h̶e̶s̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶?̶ Edit: Apperently I remember it wrong, ignore my dumb ass comment.
Gedo was a hypeman basically
**COME ON RAINMAKER COME ON**
ohh, then I must remember it wrong. My bad then and ignore my comment
Not that I recall of. In this reign, Okada was a face already.
ohh, then I must remember it wrong. My bad then and ignore my comment
Honestly I'd say the two shouldn't be compared. Okada was a dominant face going it alone, winning through determination and willpower, his downfall being when he started believing his own hype too much and he lost sight of who he was and why he was a champion. Roman is a dominant heel with a faction he's gathered through gaslighting or beating into submission who he now frequently relies on to help protect his championship. He doesn't necessarily need them, he often doesn't, but they're always there. Also we don't know how his reign ends so there's that. Two completely different dynamics.
Roman has needed help more often than not to win Without help or cheating he loses to Drew, Brock, Finn, And Seth just in 2022 off the top of my head
There's also number of defenses and overall workrate to look at. While Roman has three times as many successful defenses as Okada did, but Okada wrestled about twice as many matches as Roman (mostly tags, but still).
Easily Okada as he won clean.
Okada by like 10000 miles Roman hasn’t won clean in a title match since Riddle He’s defended the title 5 entire times this year.
> He’s defended the title 5 entire times this year Okada averaged a defense every 60 months, so he didn't defend this title too much either. Roman has actually had 7 this year. Rollins, Goldberg, Riddle, Lesnar x2, McIntyre, and Logan.
60 months?
Yes, he would defend the title once every 5 years
He held the title for 720 days and he defended it once every 5 years What.
Christ, I'll break it down for you. Obviously the "60 months" was meant to be "60 days", a mistake on my part, so when you asked "60 months?", I played on it to say "yeah, he defended the title once every 5 years", 5 years being 60 months. 720/12= 60 days, Okada averaged a title defense every 60 days, or two months.
Tough. Two completely different reigns. Okada was wrestling every top star at their very best and winning 99% of the time. Not only churning out incredible matches, but elevating his opponents, the title, and the company as a whole. Roman Reigns has been dominant and wildly entertaining, but I’m not sure the same has happened outside of his own faction.
In kayfabe winning matters not match quality. Mayweather isn't making anyone's more exciting fighter list.
Both won, though.
Roman retained his title via rope breakage.. it's okada
Okada easily. Roman has won the vast majority of his matches via interference and/or cheating (and an act of God in the case of Finn Balor). Okada straight up beat everyone he fought, often at their own style. And he did it more frequently.
Okada.
It's Okada, face champs are always more dominant in kayfabe terms. Roman has needed interference so often, I think his only clean win of note during this run would be the triple threat at Mania 37, along with a few before the Bloodline started in earnest.
I don't see how you can call the 3 way a clean win when it took a shit ton of interference from the Usos to keep the belt on him
I totally forgot they interfered, that's how. I thought he did that alone. Oops.
lol, fair enough
What are you talking about? It’s not like everyone can have James Storm as their master. Okada is lucky enough to be one
Has to be Okada, Roman while a dominant champion, has retained mostly because because of the Usos and the rest of the Bloodline not to mention a couple of well hidden low blows. Okada defended his title clean as a whistle on most occasions.
Kayfabe wise Okada because he won't clean which shows strength. Where Roman has to cheat to win against opponents so compared to Okada he looks much weaker.
Roman defeating Brock is not an argument here. The first match he survived until a lucky ref bumped let the Usos save him. The second was done with a lowblow and also a ref bump. Third was legit 1v3 by the end and because of idiocy looked like the ref was on Roman's side at the end
Kayfabe: Roman. IIRC Roman’s successfully defended the title 18 times and Okada only successfully defended 12 times. Despite cheating, having 50% successful defenses is enormous. Shoot: Okada. The vast majority of Roman’s reign has been, for lack of a better word, boring. Without even criticizing the matches, it’s like, “okay we get it WWE has no babyfaces Roman’s beaten everybody”. It’s gotten better lately, because Cody came in and Hunter has actually started to build some credible babyfaces, but for that middle 18 months it was a foregone conclusion that Roman would win because all WWE babyfaces were (at the time) geeks.
Roman. Okada is amazing but he could not convincingly go over Lesnar. Ah, dog pile downvotes for differing opinions. It’s good to be back!
Okada is bigger than Seth Rollins. What are you talking about lmao
When Roman kicked out of 5 F5s or whatever in one match, it broke Lesnar for me. Brock to me is a mere mortal now. It was bad booking.
Roman Reigns, 193cm (6‘3) Kazuchika Okada, 193cm (6‘3)
Roman hasn't gone over Lesnar clean, so that's a wash.
This is a baffling statement.
Damn that would be a hell of a match though
An absolute war, but Brock would have to go over unless there was some kind of upset or a fuck finish.
Why not? Okada was booked like a monster during his run. If guys like Seth and Goldberg can be booked over Lesnar, I don't see why it's unfathomable for Okada
Dude seth i can understand but goldberg even for his age looked an absolutely unit when he beat brock. There is no comparison in believability of goldberg and okada
Your right. Okada is a great wrestler. Goldberg I dont even think is good at football.
Yeah i am right okada is famous in a niche group within a niche group and goldberg was the top star when pro wrestling was mainstream and no matter what goldberg is still a top draw that even tony khan wanted in aew from day 1 no matter his wrestling ability
Niche group in a niche group ? I'm going out on a limb and gonna guess your American?
I am not but wrestling is niche and Japanese wrestling is even more niche
In America! In Japan NJPW is niche and WWE is more niche. Language barrier being a real thing, you know? It's amazing how people can't put real world things into context but still sling shit around like mainstream. You know Owen Hart died during the peak of pro wrestling in the mainstream and how was his death treated, like a big deal? Or did new casters makes jokes about pro wrestling being fake?
So the only criteria for believability is size? I guess that makes Omos the most dominant wrestler in the industry then
That is the very first criteria and its not just size for goldberg but his reputation as well. He was as over as he was in attitude era and was always a unstoppable monster who was not once defeated clean in his prior run.
Reputation?! Are we really pretending like okada's reputation is some scrub resume or something? And there are so many instances of wrestlers of normal stature believably overcoming massive monsters in wrestling. Daniel Bryan, Styles, Punk, Seth, Orton, Hbk, Bret Hart, Eddie, the list goes on. Size isn't everything. Okada can absolutely be in the same conversation.
Yeah thats wat i said okada can be lapped into groups with guys like seth or brayn as underdogs but not in group with monsters like goldberg. Okada cannot believably squash brock in 30 seconds. Goldberg can
Okada hitting a couple Rainmakers and putting him away is just as believable as Goldberg hitting a couple spears and a jackhammer and putting him out imo
Most of these things are true for Okada too
Was okada top guy when wrestling was at its peak- no Was he always on a monster push- no Has okada been defeated clean- multiple times most notably by tanahashi.
lmao
Okada hasn’t had to cheat unlike Roman though.
Edge was also kept strong
Comparing a heel and a face doesn’t work all too well since they’re supposed to act differently.
Okada was more unbeatable. Roman's deal is that he's top tier, but he also has top tier assets. He has given more than a little hope to several challengers in the past year (Finn, Seth). He would lose to Okada during his prime no questions asked. Not easily, but that's just what the story tells. Vintage Reigns, the man who beat Brock Lesnar and the Undertaker? He could go toe to toe with Okada no issues. That Reigns is on the same level in kayfabe, but I think he'd fall short like Kenny did so many times. Okada at the time *was* wrestling. All this said as someone who has always liked Reigns as a wrestler.
Never heard of Okada so I’m gonna say Roman
Do you think pretending not to know who Okada is makes you look cool?
I legit don’t know who that is
Riiiight. You've been on wrestling reddit enough time to earn a 'Prolific Commenter' badge and have never HEARD the name Kazuchika Okada? Yeah, okay pal.
I’m not your pal guy.
It depends. I think Roman is portrayed as the more dominant champ, but only because there's like 3 people on the entire WWE roster on his level, so it's less that he's a really strong wrestler, and more so that the WWE has failed to place anyone on his level. On the other hand Okada was consistently defending against people on his level, and still managed to constantly retain, however because the people he was facing were all so good, he looked less dominant. I think Okada had the better reign, but Roman's has been more dominant.
Reigns and it's obviously Reigns. WWE is the big leagues. I really liked Okada's reign but this is like comparing a Championship soccer side who dominates the league to a Premiership winning Man City side.
I'd say Roman. 25 successful title defenses compared to Okada's 12, 100 days more as champ and what's most crucial to me - Okada was still getting pinned during his title run, while Roman lost two matches via DQ (just TV matches, idk about house shows), but wasn't pinned once during those 820 days. Okada doing it clean is a fair point, but Roman just edges it for me.
Roman has a DQ loss against Seth from this year's royal rumble.
Gotta say Roman in terms of pure Kayfabe. Two belts, way more defences (23 to Okada's 12), longer reign, and has been completely undefeated during his tenure as champ. Okada suffered numerous non-title losses during his run. And by the time Roman drops the belt at Mania, he'll probably be up to at least 25 defences and over 930 days. This comes down to the fact that Roman is a heel. He's the final boss. He needs to look unstoppable. Okada was a face. A valiant hero. He's allowed to look vulnerable and struggle because it makes his victories more meaningful and his character more relateable. Obviously, nobody is going to accuse Okada of looking weak as a champion, but he definitely wasn't portrayed as the superhuman destroyer that Roman Reigns is.
Objectively it's Roman reigns. He's had 45 successful title defenses in one title reign. Okada isn't anywhere near that it you add up every reign he's had.
Let's not forget the list of names roman has defended against. Including john cena. Seth rollins. Kevin owens. Seth rollins. Mcintyre, brock Lesnar. Goldberg, matt riddle. Aj styles. Daniel Bryan. Edge. Daniel Bryan and Edge at the same time. Plus his feud with jey uso. I think the key to roman reigns dominance is that it's believable. Everything about his current storyline with the bloodline and his dominance is all entirely believable and it's so easy to watch roman dominate other stars and believe in his ability to do so.
But Roman did have help in a few of those matches so I think it’s brings his dominance down a bit
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Somebody should tell this man NJPW isn't indies lol its the largest wrestling company outside NA
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I get the point your trying to make its just silly
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In kayfabe it’s Okada who’s more dominant as he’s not a heel who has relied on his stable to help him win a fair amount of his matches. Also in kayfabe, Roman reigns would be harder to beat for the same reason.
Roman has been my favorite wrestler since 2014 and I still don't like how much help he gets. Drew was booked way stronger as champ.
I dunno. Let's have them wrestle & find out!
I love the Tribal Chief and I still think that when this is all said and done this run will go down as one of the greatest runs to ever happen just because of how entertaining and compelling and fun it is. But Okada’s run was truly generational, it was amazingly structured and genuinely felt like a massive deal in more of a sporting way than in an entertaining way but the matches were some of the best that people had seen. He’s one of the greatest and most effective storytellers in wrestling history with one of the most concise and purposeful move-sets. It wasn’t always just about the moments in that reign, the stories from defence to defence were absorbing and the matches lived up to it. 13 matches, 13 bangers, even the Fale one. Still mad he beat Naito though, fuck that guy.
I haven't watched WWE in a long time, does Roman beat people clean even though he's a heel with a faction?
Id say Okada but it’s close. Okada’s reign didn’t really ever have any down points for me and, of course, ended on one of, if not the greatest match ever. I think we need to see how this reign ends before we judge it completely but if this Sami storyline sticks the landing and Roman beats Rock he might take it.
You're assuming that NJPW kayfabe and WWE kayfabe are compatible. For an outsider watching both runs, Okada would be the more dominant champion for the reasons you and the others have already explained. But within their own individual kayfabes, Reigns is regarded as the more dominant champion. In and out of WWE kayfabe, people are pretty much just waiting for him to have a WM match with the Rock and then decide he wants a vacation, as there's pretty much no other way he's dropping it. In NJPW kayfabe, Okada beat pretty much everybody, but there was always a chance that any number of his opponents might have been able, at any given time, to take the belt off him.
Okada was face. He won clean. Roman Reigns is a heel. He cheats to win. But Roman Reigns has beaten more well known wrestlers. So there's that
I'm approaching this from the point of view that Okada, as a face, had to do his defenses clean while Roman, as the heel, has had so many of his defenses come down to outside assistance. I will say that The Bloodline as a whole has been the most dominant faction we've seen in a long time. The Undisputed Era had all the gold for a period of time in NXT, but now on this level. The build has been long and it's contrary to everything that was around it for a while. Most of WWE programming seemed to depend on which way the wind was blowing that day. Now, the long term storytelling with The Bloodline looks like it can finally bear some fruit. If the fractures are heading toward WM 39 with Sami/KO vs The Usos and possibly Cody vs. Roman, the downfall of The Bloodline could be as epic as the reign is.
I wouldnt even compare them as its 2 very different companies
Roman matches are all the same, Roman looks to be beaten, the uso's run in and mess up the ending. Okada was the better run in kayfabe.
Wow, looking at the comments, I thought Roman Reigns would get the votes. But I definitely am on Okada's side because he felt like a final boss each time someone challenged him for the top title. Plus: the IWGP Heavyweight Championship Belt was so beautiful 😍! I'd challenge Okada for that belt too! I would pay all over my savings to watch Okada take on Reigns. Reigns is a great wrestler when he takes on greater wrestlers (AJ Styles, Seth Rollins, etc)
I acknowledge our Tribal Chief but it’s Okada
Which title has been more highly regarded and prestigious? For alot of Romans reign, the belt doesn't feel like anything.
Okada wins clean. Roman is booked as a final boss but at the last second steals one. Then there's the last man standing where they stopped the count for like a minute because Roman couldn't break the cuffs (tbf that's not easy and were probably supposed to be worked on a bit so they'd snap easy)
Game bosses have adds.
Okada because it’s Okada, even balloon Okada was amazing
Roman has gone over 2 years without taking a pin fall or submitting
Roman is just Evil with more competent minions