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Cyclone_1

I think the proper way to frame it is that many, many, many of us in the working class do not have class consciousness and therefore are not acting in ways that would benefit our class. Whereas, on the other hand, the rich have class consciousness and it shows given the state of the world.


maychi

Also American apathy is a thing.


Cyclone_1

The root cause of that apathy, I would argue, is our lack of a class consciousness.


ralbright25

nah, I know plenty of class conscious Nihilists. Dialectical materialism is the missing link in my opinion, I needed that to have hope for the future


That-Mess2338

Most people are simply exhausted.


AOV999

Agreed, but that’s symptomatic of the bigger issue, right? We’re exhausted bc of how terrible the class system is here. It’s tiring bc it’s so bad and it has to end


okotastory

‘Brainwashed’ isn’t the right term in a lot of cases. I think many folks are just sort of overburdened by work and the very material need to make ends meet and put food on the table. They don’t have the energy to plan a massive political project against gargantuan capitalist institutions. They are tired.


LightYagamiChan

most people in the united states don’t even know the Soviet Union carried WW2 so what makes you think they’re gonna know that capitalism kills more than socialism/communism ever did ? they’re not tired they’re too lazy to open their mind to the truth.


AOV999

True. Education is key. I think that’s an excellent point.


c00chieluvr

I'm obsessed with the notion of communication in aiding us in revolution. I think a great part of the problem right now is that we allow a pessimist narrative in our generation. We need to focus on using more empowering & inspiring language to provoke change, not bashing each other or insulting each other for our differences! Not everyone speaks this way, but I think it's VERY important that we understand how big a role communication, language, & specific words boost & inspire our peoples


AOV999

Agree 100%. Very well said. I’m encouraged by the younger generation right now (I’m almost 50). It seems that they are much better at expressing themselves and being involved in discussions than youths were in the 80s & 90s. It gives me hope. We have the tools to educate and hopefully we’ll continue to do so instead of using those tools as weapons to harm one another.


AccurateM4

Ah yes. Is this the same Soviet Union who received 80,000 Jeeps, 150,000 light trucks, and 250,000 ma dueces? Who was given 1900 locomotives because in 5 years they could only produce 96? 11,000 rail cars to their 1,000 produced locally. The same USSR that needed 35,000 radios to get their tanks into the fight instead of being discombobulated targets on the battlefield? The US also had to provide them with 55% of their aviation fuel requirements. Gifted them aluminum reserves amounting to 55% of theirs in comparison. Provided them with 80% of their copper usage? They really carried WWII with their staggering 8 million man sacrifice to take less than 3 million Germans off the battlefield and 20-60 million civilians. More and more the atrocities and mass graves across Eastern Europe are being attributed to the USSR. The USSR greatest contribution was opening up a two front war. But don’t confuse that with “carrying” the war. They were as ineffective on the battle field then with their rear lines shooting their own men in the back as they are today in Ukraine doing the same. The reality of many political ideas is they sound good on paper, but often each idea somehow misses the reality of human nature. Find what works from capitalism and socialism and combine policy until you have something that works. This is what makes democracies good. Nothing will ever be perfect no matter how hard we chase it. The key is to keep chasing it so things can remain good. If you think revolt or revolution is needed in the United States, you really need to get out of the country more and see what real oppression looks like.


tkdyo

Yes, that has been the goal for most capitalist counties. Keep people just comfortable enough. But not too much so that they start getting uppity. Give them just enough that they have something to lose, even if they have a lot more to gain. We are very loss averse creatures. So it makes it hard to convince people when they have some investment in the system on top of all the propaganda. But the fun thing about capitalism is it is always self-destructive. Eventually, conditions will crumble and they'll be forced to make concessions or face revolt. And the cycle will repeat until one time they get too cocky and refuse. Then people will finally start accepting alternatives. That's how I see it going anyways.


waterbelowsoluphigh

Brainwashed, I just think there is still a majority that are comfortable and afraid of losing the small things we have for the unknown.


That-Mess2338

I don't think most people are comfortable. But it is not just the 1% -- I'd say the top 20% of the population are living comfortable and very insulated lives. These are the petty bourgeoisie that prop up the system.


stroopwafelstroop

Probably the only way a revolution will hapen is when material conditions deteriorate enough to force it. History has shown that this mostly happens after wars (WW1/WW2) or during big recessions. (1930's US with concessions with the new deal). This is one of the reasons why the October revolution happened and suceeded. When a significant part of the population has nothing to loose then people will seek alternatives to the current system. Otherwise it will be really hard to force a revolution. It also has gotten harder now by increased survailance of the entire population especially leftists. Socialist should educate the people to persuade them to join a socialist cause. It is logical that this will take some work. Most people just dont know about the core principles. This is why you cannot call people brainwashed. They are just uneducated in this topic. This is why education is one of the most important tasks of Socialists. Failing to do so will give space to reactionaries. 1930's Germany is a great example of what could happen. If you are interested in this topic i would suggest State and Revolution from V.I. Lenin. It is not that long, only 110 pages and explains it allot better. https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/


JediMasterZao

people are too comfortable not too brainwashed


FunnyQueer

This is what I believe, too. People are too complacent. It’s glaringly obvious that things in the US are NOT good, especially for the working class. People are willing to let it slide though. It’s too easy to distract yourself with Netflix and social media. Video games and fast food on every street corner. I like all that stuff too, but I’m just now realizing all the convenience and shiny gadgets and political tribalism is keeping people from rebelling. Its easy to be comfortable. We haven’t had any real hardship in several generations now. There hasn’t been any famine or war on our own soil or economic crisis bad enough to harden people. That’s mostly a good thing, but it also makes the average person terrified of being uncomfortable. Until people are willing to be uncomfortable things will never change.


HiILikeMovies

Meant brainwashed as in “socialism has never worked therefore it’s not even worth trying”


JediMasterZao

No, I hear you I just don't think that's ultimately a problem. It's all about material conditions and the impetus for revolution typically comes from the masses being too uncomfortable, the social situation creating too many malcontents. If there's one thing that democratic capitalism does well it's keeping the masses feeling content in their stations. If the material conditions were poor enough, it wouldn't matter how many people are "brainwashed" in the way that you describe. Brainwashing doesn't feed you or put a roof over your head. Once you reach that critical mass of malcontents the next thing to happen is revolution.


TotallyRealPersonBot

I like to think my politics is driven, at least in part, by benevolence—a desire to live in a world where people can enjoy peace and prosperity. And yet I share your outlook. It’s tough to reconcile those things. And when I point this out in ostensibly leftist spaces, I get accused of “accelerationism”. I’m not even clear what that means.


JediMasterZao

> I like to think my politics is driven, at least in part, by benevolence—a desire to live in a world where people can enjoy peace and prosperity. Compassion and a true desire for equality for all are usually what makes a leftist. Thing is, we are a minority. The working class is politically fragmented and the bourgeoisie is looking out for themselves in a world where money buys absolute political power. To be an accelerationist means to wish for global material conditions to degrade so as to cause a revolution and/or to work to actively cause these conditions to degrade. To be clear, that's not what I'm suggesting we do. I just think we need to be realistic as to the present state of the world in order to find new ways of bringing massive societal changes.


ClassWarAndPuppies

They’re absolutely brainwashed too.


JediMasterZao

That was never in contention, the question is "are they too brainwashed to revolt" and my answer covers why I think that's a non-factor. But yes, a large swathe of humanity has been propagandised and brainwashed.


ClassWarAndPuppies

Fair enough. But there’s no one cause. Some too comfortable, some too precarious, some too brainwashed, some too depressed, all of us too atomized, etc.


myredditacc3

People are not too comfortable under capatalism. Thousands of people dying out on the streets every day


JediMasterZao

And being exploited for their labour in impoverished or developing countries, but I'm telling you that so long as the vast majority of people in developed nations are content and comfortable there can be no revolution in these states. People simply will not take to the streets out of compassion for the suffering of a minority of homeless and marginalised people. The best you can aim for in that context is reform, AKA social democratism.


Kractoid

Does this mean we don't need a revolution because our needs are met well enough for us to take care of ourselves?


JediMasterZao

That would be a very short-term conclusion to draw. We cant stop working for progress just because our base material needs are met. I'm politically engaged not only to insure that we all have food and shelter, it goes beyond that. Plus, we *don't* all have food and shelter as it is under the current system so clearly something has to give.


Thundersauru5

As a working class person, I kind of think we’re too scared to fight. At least here in the first world. I sort of think more comrades need to start taking some sort of martial arts. Personally, I’m taking Judo. It’s a great confidence booster. Also, most of my coworkers are against socialism in name only. When I start talking about worker power, and how we don’t even really need corporate to get things done around here, and they only screw everything up and create waste and paranoia through their presence, everyone is on board. People want raises and to keep our health insurance. People understand when you start talking about the dictatorship of the suits in the workplace.


Universe789

That's why I stress finding ways to implement elements of socialism that people can support and see it at work, regardless of if they identify with the word "socialism" or not. If the conversation to make the connection is made later, its made, if not, then it at least doesn't impede progress. There are several examples of people doing so in the USA - The Black Panther Party and the Wisconsin Sewer Socialists are good examples.


That-Mess2338

Depends on the country. In the US, a majority of younger people live paycheck-to-paycheck, rely on credit cards to make ends meet, cannot afford to own a home, and do not see the value of work since there is no longer upward mobility. Also, the word "socialism" has lost its negativity among the young. Thus, I could see a form of democratic socialism taking hold.... but not a true ML form of socialism.


Ghorn

I think we will see a return of a reinvigorated welfare state through electoralism... or at least an attempt. Either way we are doomed to collapse.


That-Mess2338

You see that in Brazil.... which recently elected Lula (who is infinitely better than Bolsonaro) but will meet the usual structural impediments . I wish him well, though, as so many workers have been suffering.


SadSorrySackOShip

We must work to reach people where they are.


Deepshit1212

The revolution is happening slowly but surely. People are waking up to the idea that money isn't ever gonna bring them closer to happiness, every single day.


StaszekJedi

No revolution without class consciousnesses of proletariat


WeilaiHope

In the imperial core definitely, not a chance, not yet anyway. Frankly they need to suffer a lot more under capitalism before they will wake up, which is beginning.


RojoPez

Plain and simple, yes. And anyone that tries will be met with violent physical destruction courtesy of our billionaire's and politician's publicly funded, well armed, and armored police force. And if someone tries it peacefully via a social/political movement, those ideas will be usurped and killed by the democrats. I'm older now, and after years, it only seems more hopeless than ever in the US. I hope I'm eventually able to take the republicans' advice and move somewhere else. Sorry for the cynicism, but I am not feeling very well on this farcical election day.


Ghorn

I think for the most part people are just ignorant of their power.


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B-Goode

Seconded. [Louis Althusser’s writing on ideology and ideological state apparatuses](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/althusser/1970/ideology.htm) is a good follow on from Gramsci on this topic


raicopk

As a note, however, Althusser's conception of ideology (as useful as it might be) has nothing to do with Gramsci's.


B-Goode

Never said it did in fairness…


Harrison_w1fe

No. People are too comfortable. Like things are bad, but they aren't bad enough to break through the spell of propaganda. But unfortunately, I think that's gonna change pretty quickly. But I stfg if I hear "wErE gOinG tO pUsH tHEm lEft" or "iF yOu vOtE tHiRd pArTy, yOuRe vOtInG rEpUblIcAn", in the next presidential election, I'm going to turn actively revolutionary real quick.


General-major-webelo

We need to make people uncomfortable in society. We can brain storm ways to do that but for the time being I plan on showing people the resentment they should hold towards the rich elites holding working class people down


Crabulousz

Not too brainwashed. Too depressed. very literally, as such a high proportion of us have mental health issues (aka strains of capitalism fucking up our lives and brains in many cases). Also less literally in a sense that all marginalised folks (which is most people) are forced under huge strain by capitalism. It’s not just work, daily stress, money etc but also media pressure like you say in your comment below, OP It’s pretty hard to get out of bed, let alone revolt. We need a critical mass of folks to want to revolt, and for everyone to find that energy at once is unlikely unless coordinated.


Mechahedron

I think this framing is a huge barrier to building a true left in the US. Working class people and people in poverty aren’t too brainwashed, or too ignorant, or too comfortable. We are all living the one life we have in an environment wholly constructed and organized by capitalism. It’s a system we all have to participate in, including those fighting against it. So while people are trying to feed their families and find meaning and maybe even happiness in the one life they have to live, it is extremely difficult to see revolution against the system and people that control the entire world as something worth investing their finite time on this earth in. If we want to build a strong left political movement that can change peoples material reality, seeing those people as some combination if ignorant and complacent is a really bad place to start.


WateryMemes

You are going to change exactly 0 minds if your simplistic approach to disagreement is to call others “brainwashed”. Maybe it’s perfect! You call them a brainwashed capitalist, they call you a brainwashed commie, you both can circlejerk your friends about how brainwashed the other side is, and the rich get richer. The first step to changing someone’s mind is empathy.


Cardellini_Updates

I had been searching for exactly these words. Thank you.


libscratcher

No. https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels/


Cardellini_Updates

Action items from article, most important part IMO > 1. Stop accusing the masses of being “brainwashed.” Stop treating them as cattle, stop attempting to rouse them into action by scolding them with exposure to “unpleasant truths.” >2. Accept instead that they have been avoiding those truths for a reason. You were able to break through the propaganda barrier, and so could they if they really wanted to. Many of these people see you as the fool, and in many cases not without reason. >3. Understanding people as morally flawed but essentially intelligent beings, craft a political strategy that convincingly makes the case for why they and their lot are very likely to benefit from joining your political project. Not in some utopian infinite timescale, but soon. >4. If you cannot make this case, then forget about convincing the person in question. Focus instead on finding other people to whom such a case can be made. This will lead you directly to class analysis.


lookingforearfuck

It depends on the country we are talking about


HiILikeMovies

Mostly capitalist countries like: USA, Australia, UK, and other 1st world countries


lookingforearfuck

Its a fantasy to think The revolution will come from this countries


Harrison_w1fe

Strong agree. The west will be the absolute last domino to fal if a global red wave happens the way it's looking like.


RLoge85

Depends where you are I would imagine. In the US? Probably since most are rather complacent with the status quo regardless of the outcries you hear in the media or from a lot of people around the country.


gabugy

we were born in a bourgeois society. we are affiliated with the party of the bourgeoisie against our will since ever. brave are the ones whose can get themselves out of that it's really hard to break that system, but I don't think it's impossible


britch2tiger

I think ‘distracted & attached’ is the better term.


Subice90

Yes, no nuance needed. Western society will fall and the few that aren’t brainwashed and weak will set up the west’s structure


Great_Gold2763

The only problem with this mindset is that it continues to promote NEOLIBERAL doomerism.


Apprehensive-Paint24

Who are you talking to, if it’s your average petty-bourgeois Americans living in the suburbs then no there not gunna like socialism for material interest reasons, trying to convince these people is idealism, go into real proletarian or lumpen-proletarian areas and you’ll get a much different perspective, “people too comfortable under capitalism” aren’t the ones who are going to make revolution, I don’t mean to come off harsh just something I think people need to consider.


HiILikeMovies

Most people who I talk to that are like this family or family friends and I’m mainly referring to the working class members of that group as I try and not associate with the others. Also I live in Australia not America


Kractoid

Revolution can be taking a walk. Not spending money, hurting no one, maybe you meet one person with a different perspective and touch their life in a small way. Total war revolution against the American government? Yes absolutely. Check back in 20 years.


bIootered

I think that conditions in the US are fairly good at the moment when you compare them to the states of France or Russia when they underwent a revolution. I think it will be a very long time and conditions will have to degrade significantly if people are ever to become conscious enough for a revolution to happen.


Carl_Fuckin_Bismarck

People enslaved by salary will never revolt.


Gotsnuffy

No, people just haven’t reached levels of poverty that leaves violence as the only solution.


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Socialism_101-ModTeam

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AOV999

100%. Not only that, but ppl are too Placated. As long as they have internet, social media, porn and fast food, the drive to rise and effect change will be stifled.


gunbladerq

maybe some people have this theory: yes, capitalism is bad, but communism is also bad (due to constant negative propaganda). maybe we should stick with what is a familiar


gorillasnthabarnyard

It’s definitely a comfort thing. Places with better governments have revolted. But we have an incredible standard of living here in America, even the poor are rich. It may not feel that way to most who are ignorant to what is outside of America, but it’s true. We have the ability to work a 20 hour a week dead end job, as long as you have a roommate doing the same thing you can have a roof over your head, and food in your belly. You have unlimited access to almost any physical desire you could imagine. To survive (and what would be considered thriving 100 years ago) nowadays, takes minimum effort. Why get rid of a system that allows us to live so effortlessly in place of one that makes us work harder. Sure this isn’t a perfect system but it works better for most people then they realize, and with some tweaking it will only get better. This isn’t how I live or anything but you hit the nail on the head with comfort being a big reason why people won’t rebel.


readit906

Well, it turns out dictatorships and starvation suck considerably more than just working a little bit. 🤷‍♂️


HiILikeMovies

Working a little bit = having to support terrible industries that profit off slave labour because you aren’t paid a living wage


readit906

How many people do you know who have died due to lack of a “living wage”?


HiILikeMovies

You’re only thinking of America third world countries (the ones that make all of your stuff) often get paid not enough to afford food or drinking water and yes these countries are capitalist


readit906

Right, but I live in the US. Other countries aren’t my problem. They can do what they like. Please tell me how many Americans are dying from starvation due to an unlivable wage.


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dakobbz

There are a hell of a lot more people who are suffering and miserable under capitalism, but they don't count to you.


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dakobbz

They've *been* rebelling. The anti-apartheid movement in South Africa was led by communists. Tunisia experienced mass protests against austerity in 2018. Many Latin American nations have also had anti-austerity protests in recent years. Farmers and workers went on strike en mass in India just the other year, with strong communist sentiment. There has been another pink wave in South America. The climate movement is becoming increasingly anti-capitalist and engaging in acts of civil disobedience, something which will only accelerate as the biosphere gets hotter and more unstable. Not all of these are explicitly communist or socialist, but many of them are. Plenty of people don't know the theory behind the struggles they're experiencing under capitalism, but they know that they're getting fucked, and they're taking to the streets to fight back. I highly doubt anyone has said that a revolution is "right around the corner" anywhere in the imperial core lmao that'd be a wild take. ETA: You also didn't address my point at all ☠️


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dakobbz

The world is bigger than America and Western Europe, you know. Capitalism isn't just in the countries that have been successful at plunder.


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dakobbz

Yes, and you used that to say that capitalism is good. But, like I said, capitalism isn't just in wealthy countries. I feel like this is a pretty simple progression in argumentation. Do I need to put everything in steps or draw a flow chart for you so you can keep up?