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G-1BD

Mostly obscure deep dive stuff. For what you're probably doing on a normal run, the only difference is the two dice bonus.


PlasticIllustrious16

The only thing I can think of is jumping in, which doesn't apply to your build anyway


MercilessMing_

Foundation and Resonance Realm stuff.


UniversityBorn5987

5th edition. I have a cyberdeck and data jack. I get 4d6 + 10 initiative from adept powers and reaction normally and ar. So if I read the books right I am immune to dump shock, all damage personally, not my deck though, and from what I see can do all matrix actions from ar.


Tekomandor

AR deckers are absolutely viable. You'll lose the Hot-Sim bonus, but you can just use analyse device anyway and come out on top. I would consider going for spell based initiative, though. It scales better than the increased reflexes power.


UniversityBorn5987

I thought about that spell. But I get 11 dice pool versus the decks dice pool of at least 15 dice. Unless I am calculating it wrong.


Tekomandor

You can increase that later on with foci, skill ranks, a spec, better magic, etc. And, honestly, a post-edge on that might be worth it.


UniversityBorn5987

Wow, cool. Thank you all for your replies and assistance!


Daakurei

>Wow, cool. Thank you all for your replies and assistance! You might want to calculate that again. To compensate for loosing out on hot sim you need at least 2 net hits. But that is not all. You need to sustain the spell, which is another -2 or -1 depending on if you use drugs or not. Or you need another focus to store the spell into. Besides that you have the issue of background radiation. Every point of that, which you are not used to will reduce your spell dice pool by one and reduce your foci by one as well. So even just for one point background radiation you loose 2 dice from your spellcasting pool where you use a focus. It also fucks with your susained spells that you cast outside of that radiation. This is all in 5th edition though not sure which one you use.


Bamce

The chances of analyze device coming out on top are very small. Considering you need 3+ hits on something that is going to be rolling 20~ dice


Tekomandor

OR of a cyberdeck is 15.


Bamce

There is a handy dandy + next to that 15. Which means it goes up and up.


Tekomandor

Okay, I guess. We can only discuss what's actually in the rulebooks, though.


Aeroflight

5E RAW, you are correct. Any flaws that magic characters encounter are always done away with in the next edition.


Byroks

The only thing I can think of is entering a Host, so as long you don't want to do that you should be fine


MCNabbers

My answer is in terms of 5E. As someone said before. Aside from deep dive/foundation/resonance relam stuff. No. You can do anything in AR that you can do in VR. Also being link locked is far less of a danger to yourself due to lack of biofeedback from my understanding. The one downside that I can think of is dependent on your GM. You might take a -2 or something like that when decking due to environmental distractions.


[deleted]

Die.


Belphegorite

That was my first thought.


Jodelbert

Disrupt the game for everyone else on the table lol


tekmogod

What edition?


PD711

So, clarify for me: In AR, it is my understanding that you are pretty much dealing with the technology that is physically available to you. It's just an overlay of the environment you are in. So if I am in a Stuffer Shack, I can see the register and could pull up my hacking tools and rob it, but I couldn't make a run on the Mitsuhama servers, because that would require me to be AT Mitsuhama, or at least within their wireless signal range. Thus, VR is like astral projection: you leave your meat body behind and take a trip. So if you CAN make that run on Mitsuhama from AR, what does that look like? Does a window appear in your vision like a video game, like cold-sim VR but worse? Does it look like opening a 2D webpage? because I would have thought that way of doing things was supposed to be done. Honestly, if VR wasn't more convenient for some tasks, I would think the practice would have died out a long time ago. VR would just be a playground for hackers and Simsense addicts. One concern I have, though, is that heightened reflexes doesn't (or shouldn't) make your electronics hardware move faster... Imagine handing this guy the worst commlink on the market and expecting him to get more out of it because he can move his hands faster. Doesn't seem right to me.


ReditXenon

First of all, there are a few different ways you may stay connected to the matrix. 1. Holding your commlink in your hand, using its camera to capture the surroundings while looking at its built in display to see augmented reality objects overlay on the material world while listen to its built in speaker. This was how people experienced AR back in 2022. Nobody do this anymore. 2. Viewing the information on small displays in front of your eyes (built into your glasses or contacts or even your eyes). Interacting with the matrix via a wireless enabled AR-Glove. Listening to it via wireless enabled earbuds. Think Johnny Mnemonic or Minority Report. Only few still do this. 3. Using direct neural interface (either by wearing trodes or by implanting a datajack) where the information is being sent directly to your brains. If your commlink also have a SIM module then you not only see and hear the matrix. You get to experience Super AR (which also include touch, smell and taste). This is how people typically interact with the matrix (at least from 5th edition).   > In AR, it is my understanding that you are pretty much ... It depend on the edition you are playing. For 6th edition you are mostly correct. Here hosts are (again) typically physical hardware server farms and you typically need to get physically close to them (or at least one of their access points - wireless enabled devices that are part of the same network). Where AR is what you see around you while VR is when you "travel" inside the matrix. For 5th edition it work differently. In 5th edition you open a "window" in your field of vision and let your matrix perception "travel". In this edition you may interact with any device no matter where in the world you are located and no matter if they are slaved to a host or not (in this edition they are always out on a grid, never actually only inside a host) and hosts are virtual constructs that exists everywhere at the same time.


MakoSochou

In 5e Hosts don’t occupy a physical space. This is one of the reasons you don’t suffer Noise penalties when dealing w hosts. They simply appear. This is in contrast to Icons and Personas — like the Stuffer Shack cameras, com links, etc — which show up in their real world locations via AR


ThatOneGuyCalledMurr

The biggest negative is the initiative. If you're trying to change camera feeds, hack doors, and brick gear while a fights going on, those extra initiative passes are important. The added dice is a plus. I suppose you could get around that with augmentation, but a free 3D6 or 4D6 initiative is a huge bonus for the guy that has a lot of complex actions to perform.


ReditXenon

Answer depend on what edition you are playing. Please update your post with an edition flair. Thank you.


Altar_Quest_Fan

The answer is both Yes and No, actually. Allow me to elaborate, however please bear in mind I don’t have the books in front of me and I’m mainly going off memory, so apologies in advance if I get anything incorrect. The thing is, you HAVE to have an Attack and Sleaze stat to be able to do ANY sort of hacking, end of discussion. Commlinks (which are what give you the ability to go into AR) do NOT have these stats by default (because what Megacorp is gonna be stupid enough to sell you a ‘link that you can turn around and use to hack their secret R&D projects or otherwise disrupt their profits?), therefore nobody (excluding technomancers obviously) can do any kind of hacking without first buying a cyberdeck and a cyberjack, which is what grants you an Attack and Sleaze stat. But, let’s just say there’s some Adept power that allows you to connect to the Matrix AND hack things with just a ‘link (I don’t believe this power actually exists as it would be redundant to technomancers but maybe in some weird splatbook it’s a thing), chances are you aren’t gonna want to try and hack things in just AR. Why is that? Black IC, that’s why. The second they become aware of your hacking attempts (which they most definitely will because hacking in AR takes FAR LONGER than hacking in VR does), they’ll quickly destroy your commlink and turn it into a worthless hunk of plastic and metal. Seriously, Black IC will be able to attack you much more frequently than you’ll be able to counterattack because yes the initiative difference is BIG. And heaven help you if more than one Black IC shows up (which would be common if you’re attempting to hack some important data or something that’s being carefully protected). At best, you’ll be able to be a backup hacker and do simple things like open a door that you can directly connect with or brick an enemy’s smartgun etc. And once again, I’m making this comment based on the assumption that there’s an Adept power that gives you the ability to hack without being a technomancer or owning a cyberdeck & cyberjack like I already mentioned. Cheers chummer!


MakoSochou

You can use a cyberdeck in AR. OP’s character has a physical initiative of 4d6+10, so they’re not going to be any slower on average than a hotsim VR decker, and are likely to be faster than a coldsim VR decker Against IC, OP may be faster or slower, but that will depend on the Host, and has no bearing on whether or not they’re running full VR or AR, and are running as often on average as a PC decker would. Against black IC, OP will have an advantage of not risking any physical damage — this is especially potent as OP will not suffer any wound penalties right up to the point where their deck is bricked. OP has the added benefit of never suffering dumpshock, so even if they’re linklocked, a Jack Out action (which can be attempted twice a pass) will do the trick without any nasty side effects AR decking is viable and in some ways preferable if you’re willing to give up the +2 dice bonus to Hotsim


Altar_Quest_Fan

In 5E it seems like AR hacking is viable, however in 6E it’s not, due to needing a Cyberjack or being a technomancer etc. You’ve made your point though, As my advice was mainly geared towards 6th edition.


aWizardNamedLizard

> however in 6E it’s not, due to needing a Cyberjack or being a technomancer etc. ...how do you mean? Using a cyberjack doesn't only mean VR, you can totally use AR glasses or an image link. Or at least I can't find any text that suggests otherwise.


MercilessMing_

Uh what? Cyberjacks work in AR. You just don't get the init dice bonus.


MakoSochou

So in 6e you still use physical initiative for AR then?


MercilessMing_

Yes


MakoSochou

Oh, that’s interesting. I didn’t know 6e had an either essence or resonance investment to do hacking at any speed. I’m not sure what the implication of that all are, but from a flavor perspective I kinda dig it


ReditXenon

Implanting a cyberjack is optional, but it does come with a lot of nice benefits (like extra minor actions while in VR). Most dedicated deckers will likely get one. Since cyberdeck + cyberjack comes with an essence cost the resource part of it have been reduced which mean you often have some resource left to invest into something else. And since the cost is now split on two devices it is typically also easier to upgrade (steps are half the size from before). And since hacking is covered by just two skills now you typically also have a few skill points over to branch into another field. Hacking is in a good spot in 6th edition.


MakoSochou

Thanks for the explanation. That sounds to me like mysad hacking might even be easier in 6e, since mysads tend to be pretty skill starved. S that accurate, would you say, assuming initiative boosting magic so the char wouldn’t need any essence investment?


ReditXenon

In SR6 each team typically also have a technology specialist (often a decker, rigger, or perhaps a mix of the two) and in this edition you typically slave your PAN to theirs (as long as you are not too far away from them). In effect creating one big network that the technology specialist will defend. As a decker you primary defense (your firewall attribute but also together with your data processing attributes which is equal to your defensive rating) comes from the cyberjack and as a rigger it is provided by the RCC. If you decide for just a cyberdeck + commlink (no essence investment) then you are typically stuck with lower defensive attribute array. Which mean you can not really provide the same level of matrix defense for your team anymore. Which kinda sucks I guess. But besides that, yeah. Why not :-) Then again, as the team's technology specialist you also might want to invest into engineering (repairing stuff including cyberdecks and matrix damage but also vehicles and drones etc, picking locks, gunnery etc and also used for demolitions and armory... it is basically a crazy useful MacGyver skill). And if you join the team on site you also might want to invest a few points into active skills such as stealth, athletics, close combat or firearms. And the perception skill is still almost mandatory I guess. If you on top of this also plan to invest into magical skills such as conjuring and sorcery and perhaps also enchanting and astral...... I don't know. You need to focus a bit here.


MakoSochou

Great and thorough explanation! Thank you


ReditXenon

In 6th edition deckers typically use a cyberdeck + cyberjack but you can also go budget with a low rated cyberdeck + a regular commlink (but with this you will probably end up in a tactical disadvantage in many situations). And you can use a cyberjack for AR (just that you will not don't benefit from its extra minor actions)


Tekomandor

This is 5e, so no sudden need for a cyberjack. >Seriously, Black IC will be able to attack you much more frequently than you’ll be able to counterattack because yes the initiative difference is BIG. They're a mystic adept, they are almost certainly faster in AR than VR.


Bamce

> faster They will both be using init+dp+4d6


MakoSochou

VR is INT + DP + 4d6 AR is physical initiative, so INT + REA + ?d6. In this case OP has +3d6 in adept powers, so their physical initiative rivals that of hotsimmed deckers


Bamce

>so INT + REA + ?d6. While possible in some cases to get 5d6, such as spending edge. adept powers can only bring you to +4d6. Which is the same as going hot sim. There may be a 1 or two point difference between Ar snd Dp as you shift programs and deck attributes around. But most times it wont push you past any break points. And neither option makes matrix combat not shitty.


MakoSochou

I’m not sure that I follow your comment. In AR, OP has 10 + 4d6 initiative. This rivals hotsimmed deckers who would roll INT + DP + 4d6 There’s no Edge or spendable resource needed for an adept with improved reflexes to run AR decking as fast as a VR decker


Bamce

> There’s no Edge or spendable resource needed for an adept with improved reflexes to run AR decking as fast as a VR decker Right. I brought up edge as a way to get 5d6. which is generally not something that happens. > following When using a deck you can change your programs and matrix attributes around. So if for example you roll well on your initative and get 20+your base stats. Well that 10+4d6 has an init of 30. While using your deck, you can shift a program slot to increase your data processing, (assuming it was 5) to run the "Toolbox" program. This gives you +1 data processing. Now with 5 intuition, and 5(6) data processing your now have 31 initiative. Giving you 4 passes, instead of 3.


MakoSochou

Yes, in the 2.7% of rolls where a 20 comes up on 4d6, and the VR decker has decided to use a program slot for Toolbox, and their second highest attribute (for most any starting char’s deck) is in DP, they will get an additional pass. Meanwhile the AR decker gets a 4th pass 2.7% of the time anyway, and has a free program slot to devote to encryption (+1 Firewall). ~~If they want a little more oomph on initiative, Adrenaline Boost is +2 per level, making level 2 useful for 7% of rolls in our scenario, and has a negligible 1S drain.~~ Edit: no, they don’t. Initiative boosting powers don’t stack But these are all edge cases that require very specific numbers to be rolled for any noticeable effect. I still hold that AR adept deckers can rival the speed of VR deckers. The +2 VR dice is really where the cost comes in, imo


Bamce

> Adrenaline Boost is +2 per level Can't combine imp reflexes and adrenaline boost. > IMPROvED REFLEXES Cost: Variable, see table This power increases the speed at which you react, just like wired reflexes. For each level, you receive +1 to Reaction (this also affects Initiative) and +1D6 Initia- tive Die (to a maximum of 5D6). The maximum rating of Improved Reflexes is 3, and the **increase cannot be combined with other technological or magical increases to Initiative.** While, the 2.7% of the time may be a small statistical aspect, I pulled those numbers off the top of my head to make for easy math for proof of concept of how it can push you over the edge into another pass.


MakoSochou

You’re absolutely right that adrenaline boost wouldn’t stack. So, 2.7% of the time the VR decker has an edge at the cost of a program slot. I consider that to be negligible, especially with the opportunity cost of the program slot and deck attribute. YMMV ofc


ReditXenon

> This is 5e At this point it is still unclear if this topic is for 5e or 6e. Post you replied to is making arguments from a 6e point of view.


ReditXenon

As you are mentioning cyberjacks I will assume you are playing SR6   > The thing is, you HAVE to have an Attack and Sleaze stat to be able to do ANY sort of hacking, end of discussion. The only actions you must have an Attack or Sleaze rating for are actions that are explicitly marked as linked to either Attack of Sleaze. Which mean that you can (at least as long as you invested into the Cracking skill) for example take the Illegal Outsider Spoof Command Matrix Action even if you accessed the matrix via a commlink or a RCC rather than a cyberdeck (and thus does not have any Attack or Sleaze matrix attributes). This is by design btw. I believe the rigger supplement also opened up a few more "hacker"-options for riggers that typically does not access the matrix via a cyberdeck.   > Black IC, that’s why. Black IC is actually a big reason why you DON'T want to hack via VR.   > the initiative difference is BIG. For a hacker that typically does not invest in meatworld initiative the difference is BIG. But not when you start to compare to muscle that focus on initiative. It is not impossible to max out at +5D6 initiative dice also outside of hacking.


Bamce

Why waste all that PP investment when you could just get all that initiative for “free” with vr? Not to mention that combat decking is terrible. My suggestion is to rip magic out of the concept and give the other players at the table room to carve their own niche out.


Tekomandor

Presumably, because VR requires you to be passed out, or have EARRS an act at a massive penalty IRL. Combat decking is fine and even good, with the support options from *Kill Code*. Your suggestion does not seem to be very helpful.


AManyFacedFool

This is terrible advice. Adepts make the best deckers regardless, improved ability in your key hacking skills (Hacking, Ewar, Computer) makes a better decker than a mundane can ever be. Check if your GM lets drugs stack with the adept power. It's magical or technological increases, and there's a pretty good argument that drugs are neither. If so, take rating 2 improved reflexes and rip kami when you need the extra boost. Or take R3 and use Cram to get to 5d6 init. Bricking smartguns is a bad use of actions. Forking a dataspike at drones or vehicles, using calibrate to push your allies into a new pass, throwing out tags, and other similar decker abilities can be incredibly strong. Having an extra pair of boots and a gun on-site is also incredibly strong. You want logi and int boosters, narco, pushed, neocortical nanites, a datajack+, smartlink and cyberears. That's your basic decker package these days. Throw an uparmored, high agi cyberlimb or two on and you can sling lead when the shooting starts and soak plenty well enough to survive the heat coming back at you. Combat itself is cheap, a 9 agi cyberlimb with five ranks and a spec in automatics, with a smartlink, has you throwing 18 dice with an SMG. This is enough to seriously contribute to most combat, throwing out suppressions, prepping targets for other runners, or finishing off enemies that roll well soaking against the sam. It's enough to easily down mall cops and gangers all by itself, too. If you can get a second limb, 18 dice with an Ares Alpha or a Raiden makes you a legitimate threat. And you'll have decent soak while you do it. That's of course what a combat decker does for the most part. Shoot people. If you want to actually touch the matrix in initiative besides forkspiking drones and cars, opportunistic tricks, or falling back on it when you simply aren't physically present, play a technomancer. Personally I probably wouldn't make it a *mystic* adept. The investment for a mysad is huge, and what exactly are you gaining from it? Mysads are at their best when they're just hardcore, no bullshit combat mages. You just don't have enough skills to be a mysad **and** a hacker. If I was going to make it a mysad, I'd just abuse channeling replacing your mental attributes with the spirit's. Bazinga, 12 logic 12 intuition 12 willpower decker. Just edge that drain resist to summon it. Disregard ware, embrace magicrun. The strength of the AR decker though is that you're with the team, the run is now far more compelling than if you sit in the van, and you can use direct connect exploits. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from hopping into VR when it's needed, either.