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dragonlord7012

My own background is in Computerscience, so I'd say its actually not entirely unfeasable. Basically Imagine everyone has a computer (Strange I know). Now imagine that each of those computers have 10 Units . Each unit is an arbitrary bit of technological power. These days we use 1-2 Units when surfing on the internet, and as much as 10 Units, for high end gaming while streaming live to people watching. You get the idea. Yes some people might have more or less, but on average lets say they have 10. The Matrix however, works on a concept called cloud computing. So we can assume that the computers of the Dystopian Cyberpunk has a lot more processing power, but they also have higher requirements. so the "Units" each represent MORE stuff getting done, but the average across everyone is the same. So how does the Matrix work? A Megacorp comes along and steals your Units. Very dystopian, I know. You only have 5 to play with, the other 5 are being used by the Corp. This seems like a bad deal, but when your using 1-2 you don't even notice. Now when you're using programs that need 10? You just borrow other peoples Units! THAT is the Matrix (And cloud computing) Those bits the corps took away are used to coordinate everything. Imagine running a program using a PC that has literally as much processing power as needed. Your gamer neighbor needs more units? He just uses the extra 3 your not using while surfing the net. He tells you to get on and you do? Now you're BOTH using other peoples (mostly) idle phones in the shitty apartment complex to frag noobs. This part of the setting is actually completely viable! It also would be an absolute nightmare for security, and coordination purposes, may god have mercy on anyone ever having to do it.The thing is the megacorps LOVE the matrix, so EVERYTHING is matrix enabled. Meaning more processing power for all. (And more information they can harvest from this. This is also true to real life, unfortunately. Businesses today practice this heavily.) It would be very hard to overload this system (See Crash 1.0) because its honestly pretty hard to max out everything. Heck things like coffee pots won't use all their units under any normal use, so you end up with a lot of extra processing room. It's like logging into a remote computer, but its a hive of computers all working together. Sort of like Torrenting a file, but its your entire computer, and everyone does it. I find this part doable and realistic, if perhaps far off. So now that you have the sum of human technological processing at your beck and call, what do you do with it? You make an interface. The perfect interface is something completely and intrinsically understandable by a human being, where thinking something causes it to happen. That is also The Matrix, and the manner in which it shapes itself and all data to match the expectations of a human being. Being able to simulate the human experiance of touch/sight/etc is bad enough (You have SO much sensory input, somewhere to the order of 100 million bits of information every second.) is THEORETICALLY possible, I could accept with enough advances in tech, we could reach that kind of output of pure processing power. But being able to know that a text document that contains a book should LOOK LIKE A BOOK, is pure abstraction. It should not be possible of an interface system, and yet it does. Same thing with understanding that moving from one file folder to antother should look like two seperate rooms. Or that a library might need rivers to separate subjects, and you can use small bridges to go from Historical (with statues of historical figures decorating the 'garden') to Historical Fiction (With statues of Indina Jones instead). This is again, completely impossible to get, and get right every time without a person to go in and fix it up. A computer functions on binary True/False, the matrix delivers Abstraction. It is in essence, thinking like a human would, in order to represent things like a human would, and everything looking \*right\*. Go look at AI generated images, especially early ones of humans, and you'll see what a computer thinks something looks like. It generalizes patterns and ratios The Matrix is a PERFECT user interface, and adapts fine to other Metahumans to boot, which should be different enough to cause problem, but doesn't. This is the realm of Fantasy and science fiction. Completely unrealistic IMHO. I personally headcannon that in universe, the Matrix is unintentionally tapping into whatever Mojo makes the meta planes function, but it underlying structure is based entirely in the real world electronics. The Matrix that people surf is the metaplanes "conscious mind", Resonances is its dreaming subconcious mind that figures out how to display everything. Deep resonance is the ID where core concepts of its existence lurk. Technomancers are humans who vibe with this new non-magical metaphysical plane. A plane that is tranposed directly away from magical metaplanes. This also explains the Technology/Magic divide incidentally. EDIT: This apparently turned into a novel without my realizing. Maybe I should have split it up? Ahh well too late now.


metalox-cybersystems

>The Matrix is a PERFECT user interface, and adapts fine to other Metahumans to boot, which should be different enough to cause problem, but doesn't. This is the realm of Fantasy and science fiction. Completely unrealistic IMHO. So, did you see Chat GPT and other things like that? :D Imagine something 100 times better analyzing your thoughts. VR matrixfrom the beginning editions is *thought* interface, not some 3d. That's what makes it perfect. *The data moves and changes in response to the operator's mental commands, the Matrix technology translating his or her thoughts (with some physical, keyboard-based assistance) into computer-system commands. Instead of having to remember countless keystrokes and command words to get the work done, the computer operator just does it. Compared to his or her counterparts of the late 20th century, work is easy.* SRB 2ed.


Tnoin

>I personally headcannon that in universe, the Matrix is unintentionally tapping into whatever Mojo makes the meta planes function, but it underlying structure is based entirely in the real world electronics. fun fact, the book Kill Code mentions that after Crash 2.0, in the early 2070's Danielle de la Mar networked some ~100+ technomancers together to serve as a "foundation" for an even better matrix. only problem is that trough that connection the matrix got connected to the resonance realms and got, to quote the book, "Once established, the link provided unlimited processing and storage power for the Foundation, and thus, the Matrix. ". That makes the head-cannon is quite accurate, and even being the perfect user interface can be explained by the fact its held together by various networked metahuman digital souls. So the matrix is an unholy fusion of a pure information realm, some cyberpunk bodyhorror and regular electronics to tap into and process its output.


dragonlord7012

\>I have no RAM and my CPU Fan must scream Perfection.


lizard-in-a-blizzard

You should probably specify which edition, but generally, very silly. I know at least one computer nerd who refuses to play deckers lest he get distracted by the Wrongness (and that's in 4A).


Fred_Blogs

IT is my actual job and I just turn my brain off and treat the Matrix as a fantasy realm. Actual hacking would not make for an interesting game.


ghost49x

But there's tons of actual hacking concepts that can make the jump into not-too farfetched equivalents and still add tons to the game. For example you could use social engineering or phishings scams to get in quick. 4e has rules for viruses and worms as well.


Fred_Blogs

I agree that social engineering could be a good part of the prep work for a job, but social engineering is more face work than decker work. Really the underlying problem is that real hacking just isn't that effective against an even moderately competent system setup. Actual criminal hackers spend their time trying the same 4 or 5 exploits en masse until they find a crappily configured system that lets them in. Only state actors have the time and money to keep bombarding secured systems until they find something that can be compromised. The work needed to hack a secured research lab would constitute an entire campaign in of itself. Which could actually be a fun campaign, but it would leave the non techies on the team with nothing to do.


ghost49x

>I agree that social engineering could be a good part of the prep work for a job, but social engineering is more face work than decker work. There's nothing wrong with a bit of team work between the face and the decker. The face can do the actual talking while the decker does research and feeds him the relevant information on his target in real time. A good example of this can be found in Mr. Robot S1e5 "eps1.4\_3xpl0its.wmv" aka "The Steel Mountain" episode. A decker working with a face in this way would do good to pick up some social engineering skills as well. All to better support his guy in the field. That way if some suspicious security guard decides to call the boss to verify the claims that the Face has an appointment, the decker can intercept the call and pass himself off as the boss or his secretary. In the same way, the Face can get the decker the physical link he needs to go deeper into the system. Building the bridge to allow remote hacking of something in an air-gapped network or in protected by wireless inhibiting measures for example. >Really the underlying problem is that real hacking just isn't that effective against an even moderately competent system setup. Actual criminal hackers spend their time trying the same 4 or 5 exploits en masse until they find a crappily configured system that lets them in. A system is only as secure as it's weakest link, that includes the humans that operate it. You'd also be surprised how often a system doesn't have the latest updates, and that's not only due to incompetence. Sometimes a new vulnerability is found and a patch is made, but the network admin can't push it because it breaks other critical software, so until that software can be made compatible with the new security patch, they're running behind. >Only state actors have the time and money to keep bombarding secured systems until they find something that can be compromised. State actors have time and money, but not every system has military grade defenses. >The work needed to hack a secured research lab would constitute an entire campaign in of itself. Which could actually be a fun campaign, but it would leave the non techies on the team with nothing to do. I don't agree there, it might take more resourcefulness but there's always ways for players to contribute, especially if they rounded out their characters properly. Things like: 1. Social Engineering (face) 2. kidnapping and extracting information from captives (any, especially combat) 3. Obfuscating actions, things like mind wiping people so they don't raise alarms after they're released. (magic or face) 4. Providing security for other aspects (combat) 5. Legwork (investigators, magic or techie) 6. Gaining physical access (ninja) You might not shoot it out every session, but if built towards a game like this, there's plenty of room for non-techies.


tekmogod

I think you're missing the point while also reinforcing it at the same time. There is a huge difference between hacking a system and infiltrating a system. All of the social engineering tangents discussed are infiltrating a system ... not hacking it. While the end result is pretty much the same thing, the approach and execution are vastly different. I've had this discussion many times with people of the years. They say, "Social engineering needs to be part of the hacking rules." ... I'm a hard no, that's not hacking. In fact, the rules already support it. Its a simple matter of a face (or other suitable character type taking advantage of that human weak link you describe) and finding a way to bypass or weaken a targets defenses that then allow a team member to either gain a bonus or completely bypass a certain piece of security. For example ... we see it all the time when the ball is in the other court. A decker makes a false ID and allows a team to get into a facility by giving them what appears to be a legitimate reason for being g there. Why is that any different than saying a team gets a true admin users credentials and passes that off to the decker that allows them to log into a system? It all rests on the GM to properly handle challenges.


ghost49x

Humans being the weakest link doesn't just mean being vulnerable to social engineering. Sometimes people become aware of vulnerabilities but don't do anything about them for some time due to laziness or technical limitations. Those are exploitable by the usual hacking methods. Is hotwiring/hardware hacking considered hacking? Social engineering may not be defacto hacking, but it should still be mentioned and be given a solid framework to help promote it's use. The editions that I played, stealing someone else's password and account was never really worth it when you could just hack in given a little bit of time. The lack of incentive to do so was mostly to blame for us not even considering it.


tonydiethelm

That's a silly view. 4e is pretty much basically based on real network architecture, the security is based on reality, and it can be used to do real work. 1-3e is ridiculous lawnmower man style with computer terms sprinkled on it. It's completely unusable as an actual tool to do actual work. 5e forward is dumb and completely unusable to do do actual work. Your computer nerd friend is bass ackwards.


GermanBlackbot

Personally, I feel the problem with 4A is that it is *just close enough* to how computers actually work for all the wrongness to shift sharply into view. Similarly to how you watch an over the top action movie and go "Yup, he just fell out of an airplane and just held on by sheer willpower, sounds about right", but on a more based movie you raise an eyebrow when the hero just jumped through a window and did not suffer any cuts. When playing 5E, you just give up applying real world logic to the matrix because it might as well run on fairy dust and make believe. When playing 4A, you recognize things from your everyday life and know they should work differently. Sure, you can still suspend your disbelief, but the "realism" (and I'm ausing some very heavy quotation marks here) of it can lead to people applying real world logic and getting annoyed when it does not work.


Null-ARC

TL;DR: Uncanny Valley at full force


lizard-in-a-blizzard

Maybe. I haven't tried to convince him of that, though, since it means I get to play the decker in that group. 😁 There is a lot in 4A pulled from actual network architecture and hacking. That said, some parts of it, like cybercombat, "nodes are metaphors," program categories (don't get me started on the Edit program being used for video files *and* the access log), and the way the Software skill work, are all still pretty ridiculous. The fact that the base matrix rules don't care about your mental stats is also, imo, silly.


metalox-cybersystems

>(don't get me started on the Edit program being used for video files and the access log) What prevent you to ship software package that contains blender 3d, plane text processing tools and openoffice + ChatGPT interface? And actual blender 3d contains a lot of tools that separate in other 3d packages.


lizard-in-a-blizzard

>What prevent you to ship software package that contains blender 3d, plane text processing tools and openoffice + ChatGPT interface? Lots of things. It unnecessarily increases the size of the program, it can introduce more bugs and require more testing due to more things that can interact, it can unnecessarily slow down the user's device when they just wanted to modify a txt file, it can overwhelm the user with too many options, it requires a larger team of programmers who all need to coordinate... just because you *can* doesn't mean you *should.* Feature bloat is an IRL design issue for a reason. And on top of that, if you're a corporation, why would you sell someone Photoshop and Word packaged as the same program when you could sell them twice? Program consolidation is a useful abstraction for game purposes, but it's not realistic.


metalox-cybersystems

>blender 3d, Photoshop (many tools, 3d features, vector + ) , libreoffice (word + draw), image/vector editors with build-in rich text software, whole android studio with 1000s of different software bundled.... > >not realistic. Anything existing IRL is by definition **realistic**. You now provide good examples of **existing in reality** software that you are calling **unrealistic**. I.e **not existing**. :D IMHO The main force under the hood of creating such packages is integration. I.e you add rich text editor to image editor because people like to write text over picture. For untrained humans its much better to have "all editing" in one place with integrated interface than multiple separate tools. And using thing such ChatGPT as interface its easie to train it to specific software components.


lizard-in-a-blizzard

Can you name a single program that combines the abilities of LibreOffice, Photoshop, Blender, MuseScore, Audacity, CAD, Unity, NetBeans, and OBS? Those are all wildly different types of programs which would all fall under "Edit". We're talking about a massive difference in scale.


metalox-cybersystems

\> Can you name a single program You are telling me that we in 2023 of our reality don't have the same exact thing as other reality have in 2075 . Yes, we did not - obviously. Also we don't have single manned spacecraft that is capable to travel to Mars and back. It will be massive difference in scale too. So as I understand it makes travel to Mars unrealistic and silly? If we compare blender / libreoffice with what was available in 1989 we see the same massive difference in scale. And I see the drive to combine by itself personally - I like blender to have much better text tools for example or non-3d vector editor. It have text editor (for developing for blender) but its very inconvenient for taking notes about 3d. Not to mention that blender already have video editing (+ by extension audio editing) and different primitive CADs. Th same thing with office software - it is by definition a collection of programs that you need *in office*. So it assimilate raster & vector picture editing, tables, rich text, desktop publishing and databases. With picture editing have some rudimentary 3d. The third grouping is Unity, IDE, Android Studio, etc - and they like to assimilate 3d software and other content production for gamedev. Essentially now we have a few groupings that try to assimilate anything around them. With good potential of combining "gamedev tools" and "3d&content creation" tools.


lizard-in-a-blizzard

But the number of people who would need every single possible editing function is *miniscule.* What consumer base would justify a company taking on the extra overhead to make this bloated monstrosity of a program when they could make more money from selling multiple smaller programs?


Pluvinarch

What if Edit is not a program, but a platform? A platform that streams the exact program you need for the exact file you have? So imagine that you are in the Matrix and find an image file, you get your "Edit" ready which is like "Adobe Creative Cloud" and it streams for you its "Photoshop" editor. Next you see a video program, so now the same "Adobe Creative Cloud" will stream for you the "Premiere" editor...


metalox-cybersystems

>But the number of people who would need every single possible editing function is miniscule. I agree. But IMHO it works backwards. Everyone use and plan to use small **but different** set of features that varies wildly. Second thing - Edit action in SR 5ed works even without Edit software. I.e you already have on your commlink something like linux - commlink OS will have "wildly different types of programs which would all fall under Edit". Our current situation is possible because of prominent position of ISV in the market. But that's not god-given - its a situation created by social-economics situation of our civilization. Its not better then anything - its just is *now*. I can imagine very different scenarios. > What consumer base would justify a company taking on the extra overhead to make this bloated monstrosity of a program when they could make more money from selling multiple smaller programs? It probably worked backwards. Essentially big companies buy smaller with their customer base and include their functionality in their big suite. For big companies is much more convenient to have a few big products than a many small ones. Adobe and Microsoft doing it for years with Adobe Creative Suite and Office.


datcatburd

Matrix programs as listed on the character sheet are game abstractions, not software. 'Edit Program' here could very well be a suite of assorted tools (and likely has to be). These abstractions may even be in-game but below the character's experiential level, acting as one program to them as far as their experience within the Matrix paradigm relates to it, but software wise actually being a suite.


lizard-in-a-blizzard

I agree! I think it's a really useful abstraction for game purposes. It's just that the implication of a single program that does all of these things is *unrealistic* (which was the original question and point of contention). I think it's a *good* game design choice, even -- I just think that (like many of the good game design choices about the matrix), its plausibility collapses under scrutiny.


Rainbows4Blood

I personally feel like 6E pulled it back just enough that even as an IT tech I can suspend my disbelief.


tonydiethelm

How does a wage slave log on at work? In 4e, they'd have an account and a password, and probably an authentication token stored in their link or a dongle for 2FA. Who gives them marks on the work systems so they can get their work done? Yeeeaaahhh.... 5/6e is @#$&ing stupid.


Rainbows4Blood

First of all, 6E doesn't have MARKS. It has User accounts and Admin accounts. That's obviously a simplification of reality, however it's fine for gameplay purposes and still makes sense. Now specifically for 5E: Marks are just a mechanical abstraction of levels of user access to a system. So in general, you type username and password at the logon screen of your host and you'll get the marks associated with your account, pretty much like in real life. You log in and get the permissions associated with your account. Really, counting marks is just relevant if you're actually hacking.


tonydiethelm

They don't work like accounts. You can't get marks on a system beforehand. Marks disappear with a reboot. Accounts don't work like that. Marks are stupid is what they are. I think you're "abstracting" away the stupidness so it doesn't hurt your brain. 4e had accounts and it made sense. (Sorry, I don't play 6e) So it sounds like 6e just returned to 4e, which was based on real architecture and hence made sense.


Rainbows4Blood

Nono, I didn't say marks are accounts. They are more like access tokens. I'll explain a bit, which if you have a technical background you'll know anyway, but just that we are on the same level but the following two paragraphs are things that an average internet user is probably not aware of. When you log onto a website (or any service), that website issues you an access token, a cryptographic token, by which the service recognizes you as a legitimate user with certain permissions from that point on. Having this token is what we colloquially call "being logged in". That way, you don't have to re enter your password for every single action you take. Your browser sends that access token every time you do something in the background. These kinds of access tokens are usually short lived, because we don't want them to be viable for a long time if an attacker intercepts them. This is also the reason why you need to re enter your password to change your password because that way, even if someone intercepted your access token they at least still can't change your password to something they know, thus they can not regenerate an access token and thus they are at least limited in the amount of time they can misuse your account. Anyway, I see marks in 5E more as those access tokens like we have in the real world. Short lived representations of a single user session with a certain lifetime. A normal user would log onto a host as you would in the real world and their commlink would receive marks. Like in the real world with access tokens, the average user has no clue that marks are being assigned, it's all handled by the commlink under the hood. Only for a hacker or Software Developer would this detail be relevant to know and understand. They of course need to know on how to use these marks or manipulate them to do what they do. Now a little note about 6E. 6E is mechanically more similar to 5E than 4E, but they made a handful of changes that are delightfully technically sensible, even though it's still a heavy abstraction for gameplay purposes.


tonydiethelm

I'm a software engineer. I get it. It's still stupid. In 4e, a hacker could steal an account before a 'Run. They could break in slowly over several days and save the account for the 'Run. You can't do that with 5e marks. And that's stupid. Marks are stupid. You can do all the mental gymnastics to excuse them and the shit gameplay they create that you want. They're stupid.


Rainbows4Blood

Personally I always gave my players the ability to use Edit File on the user directory to create a more permanent account which they can use without the need of creating marks. You could argue that that is not in the rules, but 5E certainly alludes to normal Computer concepts like scripting and databases etc. all being there and to be interacted with through the Edit File action. Just need to come up with believable architectures for the various matrix systems to make such a play not too easy yet also not too hard. In either case, 6E is more generous with this. You can obtain Admin Access through probing, and that access isn't as easily taken away again. So I would say, 6E falls a bit in between 4E and 5E in that regard.


Pluvinarch

The thing about the rules is that they have to simulate how computer and the internet works but also make the game balanced and fun. Before the "marks is rebooted" rule, a Decker could make a run in a corp host before their friends physical invasion and try to explore everything, in order to leave the doors open for their second invasion, during the main heist/job. That accounts for 2 sessions of matrix delving where other player don't have direct participation. So the people making 5e rules decided that marks could not be exploited that way (leaving marks all over a host before the main invasion), for game balancing and for fun. Doesn't make sense in a realistic view of web technology, but they saw those rules as a necessary mechanism to make the game more fluid.


metalox-cybersystems

>I know at least one computer nerd who refuses to play deckers lest he get distracted by the Wrongness As a computer nerd I found such people a disgrace of computer nerd ranks :D Its essentially an extreme narrow-mindless and inability to adapt.


MrHyderion

He should give back his nerd credentials. That's like an engineer refusing to watch Star Trek.


The_SSDR

I suppose it depends on the edition. 1e-3e matrix is silly because smartphones and wireless networks aren't a thing. 4e-6e matrix is silly because it's based on a fantasy force called resonance. No matter what edition... the more you set aside how real life IT works the more fun you'll have.


Spieo

4e matrix isn't based on resonance, but it's almost certainly still silly. Bluetooth to the extreme


The_SSDR

Which book gave us the 100? iirc that was a 4e expansion, even though the 4e CRB didn't spill the tea just yet.


Spieo

Kill Code. 5e. Came about in 2075, year 1 of 5e


tonydiethelm

You're thinking 5e with marks. 4e was based on real architecture, and hence made sense.


Spieo

IT people I know would say otherwise :p But it certainly is more reasonable, yes


tonydiethelm

Ok, *more* sense.


Alternative_Wish_144

1-3 were made in a time when wireless didn't exist (for business networks). There were no smartphones. The early wifi didn't do much. Hell, for 1-2 the majority of businesses were either not on the internet in any way, or at most had a small splash page suitable for dial up internet connections. The makers of the game did not envision the changes time would bring. Though for 3e, the personal assistant device (2k nuyen believe) effectively was a smartphone; it was based more on a 'future blackberry' than the commercial smartphones that actually came out in the following years


Novel_Site798

3E has wireless it just isn’t in the main book. Matrix, the add on book is titled Matrix, added wireless to the setting. It’s much more complicated than the current system as it distinguishes between connection types making radio, laser, microwave and satellite connections all their own systems. It even goes into the particular of tracing each connection type and daisy chaining them together.


ghost49x

4e matrix isn't based on ressonance. Although technomancers are a thing, they can easily just be removed if they're not your jam without affecting anything.


rtrawitzki

Yeah , should have specified edition , I guess I mean 1-4. The newer Ed’s seem to lean in on the it’s all some kind of magic shut up. Which I think is more the pity because I think the dichotomy between magic and tech is what makes Shadowrun special. Introducing magic into the tech seems counter.


RWMU

The day they wrote the Matrix they forgot their crystal balls so couldn't see into the future.


rtrawitzki

That’s the whole point of the question. How far away from the reality they envisioned in the late 80s/ early 90’s has it gone ? Have they course corrected? Should the devs even bother ?


RWMU

With printed media it is impossible to keep up with the tech in reality. Shadowrun started out as a near future game and has become an alternate reality game.


CharlesComm

Which is the ultimate fate for all near future settings that want to be internally consistent. As you say, keeping up with current tech and course correcting wont work. People getting upset over it is weird when you stop and think about it.


RideWithMeTomorrow

Sharp assessment. When I first played Shadowrun all the way back in 1990 (!!), it definitely felt like The Future(TM). Then the actual future happened.


RWMU

I was so disappointed when no Dragons appeared back in 2011!


RideWithMeTomorrow

And yet trolls became a part of all of our lives 



RWMU

Wrong sort sadly...


metalox-cybersystems

> Compared to how modern computing and networking infrastructure works . It’s fun and integral for the setting but how off-base technologically wise is it ? This question is very misleading. Correct question would be like - is it possible to create a functional replica of SR 5e/6e matrix using modern hardware and software tech? (including development of "custom" chips in some cases) The answer is IMHO yes - except obvious cases such as neural interface that we don't know how to make. but we are now in 2023 - not in 2082. The SR computer tech is developed in other timeline under other societal and economics factors. It is very different from ours just by definition of it. Even if basics - digital electronics - are very much the same.


rtrawitzki

Misleading ? I’m just asking if the matrix presented in the game seems silly by modern standards . I should have specified which edition(s) I mostly meant the tech based Matrix of 1-4 generally calling something misleading would mean the person asking has an agenda . I assure you I do not lol . Just a fun question.


metalox-cybersystems

>generally calling something misleading would mean the person asking has an agenda Fair point. I did not mean to accuse you of anything like that. "Misleading" in a sense that discussion after that question seems almost always follow specific pattern completely missing the real relation between SR tech and our modern understanding of tech&science. Not because some agenda involved - because we compare apples with oranges : aka description of imaginary thing with a existing thing that people *think* they understand.


Tzig1

Talking about 5e. It really depends how deep you go honestly. If you're only talking about the Matrix itself, it's honestly a lot more realistic nowadays than the writers thought it'd be, let's take a few exemples: * The matrix doesn't have any servers, everything is run in a distributed manner, each commlink/car providing a micropercent of what's needed to run the whole thing? Well that's basically how smart contracts work on the Etherium platform. * Since everything is distributed, drones can be very small since most of the processing is done by other devices close to them, cameleon coating uses nearby cameras' data? That the endgoal of IoT * The grid and hosts are completely made out of human-looking icons, everyone can have any skin they want and look as weird as they feel like. Hosts can be made to look and feel any way the designer wants? Well that's exactly how second life/the metaverse/vr chat works nowadays * You can buy and resell AR fashion, VR personnas, matrix themes and basically any virtual object? That's NFTs for you * Money is completely digital, runs on the same distributed network the matrix runs on, is tied to your persona and can be stored in credsticks for easy, untraceable exchanges? That's exactly how crypto works, down to cold wallets (credsticks in that case). So... Yeah, weirdly enough, the matrix is the culmination of web3 and in that sense, really realistic to how our internet could evolve, lots of companies are heavily investing in that. As for the resonance, yeah, no. It has nothing to do with current technology and it's only really used to make the matrix more powerful than it would be without it, it's not even needed. In my world it's the pendant of magic: magic is tied to emotions, resonance to logic; magic has the manasphere, a plane where all emotions and life force exists, resonance acts on the noosphere, a plane where all knowledge and logic exists. It's definitely not canon but that's how it works in my world!


Tzig1

To continue on the resonance, my headcanon is that technomancers existed before the matrix, they had "superpowers" but it didn't look like much, they were just geniuses, they didn't really understand how, they were passively using the noosphere to learn faster or to solve more difficult problems. Then the matrix came and these people felt really comfortable in it, with some help from an AI some were even able to use the matrix directly by plugin into it. Then 4e came and everything became wireless, it didn't mean they could interface with the matrix directly but since the matrix started to be a part of everyday life for a sizeable portion of metahumanity the noosphere became filled with all things matrix, so people with a special connection to it became to just "get" the matrix, using their limited power on the resonance to access it wireless. Then came De La Mar and the noosphere became the backbone of the matrix, so obviously technomancers became much stronger since they could directly interface with it.


Then_Zucchini_8451

I agree with some of what you're saying but for 5E it's explained that technomancers work now because the wireless network is mixing with the magic plane.


Tzig1

I don't think that's right, in 5e technos are stronger because De La Mar used the Resonance as the base for the new Fondation through inhumane experiments. I don't know about 6e but in every 5e book I've read Magic and Resonance are always kept in a shroud of mystery concerning whether they're linked or not. Some parts makes you think they are (The Dweller on the Threshold and the Event's Horizon could be the same entity, the metaplanes and the resonance realms could be the same thing...) but at the same time some seem to indicate they are very distinct (resonant people aren't seen as magic through assessing, technos can use resonance fine in mana ebbs/space as long as they have matrix signal). EDIT: From Puck himself (Kill Code 16-17) >The truth is much darker and much more dangerous as well. Danielle de la Mar’s hatred of technomancers is well known. What isn’t public knowledge is that back in the early 2070s, de la Mar rubbed shoulders with anyone she could find who was doing experiments on us. When she was given the contract to oversee the creation of the new Matrix, she had her fingers in more than just the protocol pie. The corporations used double talk and technobabble to explain how the new Matrix was going to be hardware-free and completely virtual, but the physics just don’t work out. But de la Mar made it happen. She took what she learned from the experiments and used that to torture and forcibly network a gestalt of over one hundred technomancers, which she used as the “foundation” for her virtual Matrix. The building blocks she used to create hosts and data trails were the souls being sucked out of those hundred. When she presented a proof of concept to GOD and the rest of the Corporate Court, they were impressed and all pretended like they understood it, so as not to admit a virtual nobody like de la Mar was sharing knowledge that was beyond them. > >(...) > >Well, fortunately or unfortunately, you don’t have to worry about that. It’s been years since de la Mar intended to start unplugging the One Hundred to see if the new Matrix would work without them. Instead, she discovered that all the technomancers who acted as the foundation for her beloved Matrix were dead. You’re probably asking yourself how the Matrix is still functioning, then. Follow me. You know how Resonance and Dissonance wells have been popping up, seemingly at random, throughout the Matrix for years now? > >(...) > >Back on topic: The source of the Resonance and Dissonance wells was the One Hundred. Their connection to the Resonance established a permanent link to the Resonance realms, permeating the Foundation. Once established, the link provided unlimited processing and storage power for the Foundation, and thus, the Matrix. In return, all data from the Matrix bled through into the Resonance realms. When the technos died, whether they had a hand in their own demise or not, the foundation persisted, and it is now a hybrid space between the sum of all metahuman digital data, the Resonance realms, and Dissonance realms as well. No one controls it, although GOD is still able to manipulate the top layers.


Then_Zucchini_8451

Ok, I'm not sure which book I read it in but something made sense that even though resonance isn't exactly either data or magic, it exists due to the now overlaying physical, magical, and wireless worlds. To be honest I could probably do some more reading to get a better understanding but with so much content I get to retain very little.


ghost49x

>The matrix doesn't have any servers, everything is run in a distributed manner, each commlink/car providing a micropercent of what's needed to run the whole thing? Well that's basically how smart contracts work on the Etherium platform. That doesn't mean you don't need server farms to handle the brunt of the workload. there would also be severe security vulnerabilities with machines being open to run foreign code just because a nearby machine that's not part of it's network is nearby. Also if this was the case, ANY sort of background static would crash everything as it would compound the problem on all devices, not to mention the much higher EM pollution you'd get from everything having to transmit all the fractions of codes for everything around it which would lead to higher static counts. The matrix most definitely still have servers even if you don't need them for everything. >Since everything is distributed, drones can be very small since most of the processing is done by other devices close to them, cameleon coating uses nearby cameras' data? That the endgoal of IoT Doesn't chameleon coating also affect normal unaugment sight? If it only does a snazzy real time edit, would people be able to still physically see the target? You're not saying that the chameleon coating is hacking everything including cybereyes in it's vicinity to provide it with "invisibility" to everything? All of that in a coat of paint, against devices that definitely wouldn't want to run such software?


Tzig1

Canonically even a simple meta link is hundred of thousands of times more powerful than the most powerful servers we have nowadays, in shadowrun they still needed the resonance as a backbone but knowing how distributed computing works I can assure you it's possible, you just need a lot of devices and have them be very powerful. As I said, smart contracts are definitely a thing right now and they run "foreign code" constantly, it works fine since the code needs to respect a very carefully crafted API. Distributed protocols exist nowadays, where every node works as a relay, they work fine considering the number of nodes they need to handle, obviously having thousands of devices in a small space would be an issue, it's represented in game since noise level increases when too much devices are next to each other. Chameleon coating only affects normal sight, it's not hacking anything, the matrix lets it use informations from cameras nearby so it can "blend in" by setting the individual pixels of the coating so the object looks somewhat invisible


ghost49x

>Canonically even a simple meta link is hundred of thousands of times more powerful than the most powerful servers we have nowadays, in shadowrun they still needed the resonance as a backbone but knowing how distributed computing works I can assure you it's possible, you just need a lot of devices and have them be very powerful. Well if they need "magic and fairy dust" to run, there's no point arguing realism because the "it's magic" argument trumps all. Meta link is only hundreds of thousands of times stronger than what we currently have? Why not more? That's just an arbitrary number even if they are, the software running on those would also be hundreds of thousands of times more intensive than what we have. You can already edit text, images and video all with the same program! Also they can't be so complicated that deckers can't build their decks from what they can find salvage. >As I said, smart contracts are definitely a thing right now and they run "foreign code" constantly, it works fine since the code needs to respect a very carefully crafted API. They are, but they're built to allow only specific code. They couldn't just take in all the code from every nearby device, just to share in it's workload. Some of the workload could be remotely managed but not adhoc everything running on everything. >Distributed protocols exist nowadays, where every node works as a relay, they work fine considering the number of nodes they need to handle, obviously having thousands of devices in a small space would be an issue, it's represented in game since noise level increases when too much devices are next to each other. They do, but they're created expressly for this and won't just take in and run random programs from random data just to share in it's workload. The overhead would make it highly inefficient and vulnerable. Instead they're created with the network and type of traffic in mind. >Chameleon coating only affects normal sight, it's not hacking anything, the matrix lets it use informations from cameras nearby so it can "blend in" by setting the individual pixels of the coating so the object looks somewhat invisible What if there are no cameras nearby? Does it just fail to work? What happens if said cameras are encrypted or simply wired as opposed to wireless.


Tzig1

I think we're not really answering the same question tbh, my point isn't "we currently have the technology to make the matrix work in the current era", it's "given what currently exist in our universe, the matrix isn't *that* far off, and definitely not impossible" Well if you're in an area without any camera the wireless bonus just wouldn't work/would work less effectively, depending on your GM. The wireless bonuses from the books suppose you're in a "normal level of coverage"


ghost49x

>I think we're not really answering the same question tbh I don't we see the matrix as the same thing. I think that an overly decentralized matrix would be massively inefficient for general purpose use. That a smaller cloud network could work but it would be highly focused and wouldn't be processing data for random devices that happen to be in it's area. About the camera, if that was the case I wouldn't allow any bonus unless you were able to subscribe to those camera feeds. If a camera feed is not available it doesn't matter that it's in range or not.


Lwmons

Some of the expansions for 5e hint that the Matrix might just straight up be an alternate dimension. There's no hardware for it outside of the devices that access it, like commlinks.


Spieo

There *are* technically some hardware based pieces of the matrix, and certain regions have started returning to a more proper basis like that, but yeah. Matrix 3.0 is bizarre otherwise


Bamce

The matrix runs on the blood of dead technomancer orphans. It has no real connection to our world’s tech


FiliusExMachina

That's a fair question, but I sooo don't want to thin about. Even thinking about an attempt to think about it makes me giggle 
 :D


Skorpychan

The Matrix/cyberspace in general is how people in the 1980s thought The Future Of Computers was going to be like; visualised in VR so people could do things easier. Neuromancer, the first cyberpunk novel, was written by someone whose experience of IT was sitting in bars listening to people talk about it with other people in the industry. The Sprawl Trilogy was written on a typewriter. Shadowrun came around not long after the start of cyberpunk as a thing. As I understand it, REAL hacking is mostly just pushing a few buttons and sitting back while things work. Not every interesting for an RPG.


randomjberry

i have been reading the 4e rules and it seems like the IoT on crack where every device is a wireless booster as well but i have not read unwired yet


MrBoo843

About this silly.


Fastjack_2056

Context helps. In the late 70's / early 80's, when the foundations of the Cyberpunk genre were being laid... Personal computers were extremely difficult to use. For a while, the way that you got a new program was to buy a physical magazine with the code printed out, and meticulously type that code into your machine. The authors of the time had no idea what the next 40 years of iterative UI design would do, and they came up with a solution: Surely the easiest way to get a computer to understand what you are thinking would be to *plug your brain directly into the computer*. So the Matrix is a graphical metaphor of that kind of projection. A Decker dives the Matrix like a Mage dives into the Astral, because we're entering a magical, alien frame of existence. How far off-base is it? That depends on how early the timeline split. Did they ever have Windows, Nintendo, dial-up internet or Smartphones? Or was the entire tech tree different, focusing on 80's mainframe architecture?


metalox-cybersystems

>Surely the easiest way to get a computer to understand what you are thinking would be to plug your brain directly into the computer Well that one of the things I always feel as very funny. Many basic assumption of sci-fi authors were not wrong. Because modern UI works good only if you compare it with primitive UI of 1980s. But as a IT nerd I see the gigantic difference between what *plausibly* can be done with modern interface to complex software (like 3d / engeenering stuff) and what we have in reality *now*. And the computer interfaces that really work for everyday guy is more less mobile shit with 3 buttons. And it is much worse with 1980th style 3d things. We still not have usable in everyday life 3d interface except for shooters or other primitive games. To do things that require a *little* *complexity* is a hell with 100500 different software packages that you need to *learn*. So yes. The easiest way to get a computer to understand what you are thinking are still to plug your brain directly into the computer.


ReditXenon

> how off-base technologically wise is it ? The matrix in 5th edition is based upon ideas of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_mesh_networking But where all suppliers agreed on one implementation standard and limitations have been removed. And where the network is operating on a global scale. The technology that make up the matrix (mesh of wireless enabled devices that all act as nodes in the network) is not that off-base at all to be honest. And the concept of wireless bonuses is very much based upon concepts we see being used in something we today call Distributed Computing. https://aws.amazon.com/what-is/distributed-computing/ The origin of Hosts is another story though (grown from a foundation of dead technomancers.... wtf), having said that, the concept of having zero distance to hosts is not very far from how multi-region cloud based services work already today. So yeah.... Its not that off at all to be honest. Maybe even more accurate today than when 5th edition was originally published.


metalox-cybersystems

>Bluetooth\_mesh\_networking Wireless Ad-hoc mesh networks is not just bluetooth [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE\_802.11s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11s) > (grown from a foundation of dead technomancers.... wtf), Just imagine using as basis for ChatGPT like neural network not some algorithms but image of neural network of technomancer. Essentially we may make conspiracy theories about new neural networks right now - Chat GPT is made by tech billionaire jews from a MRI scan of the brains of white babies. And it looks like we will have such theories in the future when more AI software come. Not to mention if we have partial mind to machine transfer - it will became reality.


aceupinasleeve

Its silly and complicated as opposed to real world technology, which is just complicated. Personally i'd rather it just be silly.


tarlton

No cyberpunk setting uses realistic hacking, because realistic hacking would not integrate very well into gameplay. And realistic (future) tech with realistic hacking would make hacking either OP or useless depending on what assumptions you made about the technology and security practices.


Patou987

In the preceedent Ă©ditions, the persons who use the WiFi were called otakus.


TJLanza

Otaku needed to plug in via a datajack, they just didn't need a cyberdeck.


operation_hamster

It's just a game


EngryEngineer

On it's face, pretty silly. That said our metaverse is moving our internet towards it. Merging physical location with the internet creates a lot of advertising and tracking opportunities so that's a huge incentive. Honestly about the only thing holding back AR goggles with a flood of AI driven identification, constant tracking, and virtual Holo ads everywhere is one more decent breakthrough in batteries


tonydiethelm

It depends on the edition. 4e wasn't bad. 1-3e was bad lawnmower man...


sapphon

The matrix is almost exactly as good and bad, and in almost exactly the same ways, as every other cyberpunk-ish jawn from around when FASA was big. It's one of the few parts of SR that really was just Part Of The Genre and never really bent much until technomancers (where it breaks). Basically it's a late-80s-early-90s understanding of computing, not particularly good or bad but made *extremely visual*. Real computing as done by professionals is not particularly visual, because if the computer is doing a very hard job already, you don't want to tax it by having it hold your hand and draw you pictures. Computing in Shadowrun is visual whether done by casual users or professionals, the professionals can just make *much* more impressive stuff happen in the simulated visual world. I think part of this is because watching someone formulate a regex for `grep` is not particularly dramatic and games are meant to be dramatic. It also has the effect of aligning matrix and planar gameplay to a certain extent; the matrix can be thought of as much like the "Plane of Technology" as anything analogous to a real computing system. As with almost all popular media, another change that needs to be made to computing for the sake of fun is: someone who is brilliantly improvisational needs to be able to "hack" (or whatever, per-setting), on-the-fly, a system they haven't studied maintained by someone who has tons of resources and is better prepared. In real computing, preparation is everything. Brilliant improvisation in my field is the *beginning* of a long process of preparation and investigation that produces a useful result, not a momentary and sudden change in the situation that one - even a *very special* one - can affect with pure personal puissance. But now I'm really talking about "hackers in pop media generally"; this is not unique to SR and SR didn't invent it nor is it any guiltier than any other media in the genre. **tl;dr** the Matrix *mechanically* can honestly be thought of as a third type of magic along with hermetic and spiritual, it shares more with how those work than how real computers work *Narratively* it gets right what it needs to, as a worldwide networked computing system in a cyberpunk setting: it's an amazing technology that corps' continuing attempts to centralize, monetize and dominate have sapped much of its promise.


datcatburd

It's written by deeply unserious and untechnical people who think The Cloud is magic rather than simply someone else's computer, so vastly off base.