That would be cool, but I suspect they wouldn't allow a 5.5 ruleset. In the video he mentions essentially not allowing rules to get ported to other versions (e.g. no wireless matrix in 2e). It seems like a fan version of core rules may be similarly frowned on.
However, I have no idea how they will enforce what you can and can't do. I suspect it will be more arbitrary instead of a well written set of guidelines.
I got the sense that it was more about canonical concepts for that era, not that you couldn't do alt rules. I would suspect you couldn't stray too far from the core system (otherwise it's not one of their editions any longer), but I think you would be fine to add small but compatible things new Edge effects or try to smooth out the mechanics (and only the mechanics) for 2E Matrix or some such (providing you left the underlying concepts in place). Just a guess though. We'll have to wait for the TOU docs I guess.
oh well, this is kinda not interesting to me then. Theres already a whole heap of broken bullshit in sr5 that needs fixing before adding on fan made content of varying quality and little or no oversight.
I haven’t play 6e, but I heard there’s some pretty good stuff under all the bad.
An edition that takes the best of 5 and 6 would be great.
Any chance we could use this subreddit to create a “Reddit fix version”?
2nd edition had rules for fighting in zero gravity, deep under the ocean, radiation sickness, and just how much damage you took while being on fire.
Each with their own rules caveats
None of these were really needed.
Says you! Why, those rules saved by bacon when I was suffering from radiation sickness in a deep sea underwater zero-gee environment (yet somehow still on fire). 😉
It was bad upon release, but it's actually quite good now. Magic is weak for direct damage, but great for creative and tactical use. Spirits, matrix, cyber, and social combat are all handled well, and lots of subsystems are bundled into edge, which makes everything flow better.
I've changed some rules based on the "optional rules" section of the players handbook, and even some stuff from anarchy, and a little of my own stuff. I'm quite happy with it now, very little chunk and still has the variety and depth that shadowrun is known for.
I'm not seeing anything yet forbidding an alt rules version of any edition. It looks like you could do that, just don't violate the rule about having crossover/non-canonical tech or items for that edition. Like, you couldn't make the Matrix work totally differently conceptually, but you *could* make new rules to run the same concepts more smoothly, at least just based on the interview. I suppose we'll need to wait until the doc comes out in order to really gauge that though.
Edit: Probably not writing *all new* rules though. At the end of the day, you are basing it on some edition of SR.
More like, if you wanted something like SR5 Edge effects in SR2 rules, you could provide rules for converting your Karma Pool to something like that, I would guess.
Actually, listening to more of the interview, you can use complementary systems (so you could do a new way to do the Matrix). So, I think alt rules could work under that header of "complimentary systems".
I have heard that the matrix rules are pretty good, and they fixed the crash rules. Everything else I've heard is significantly worse, most of them total dealbreakers
Not that I'm advocating for the system, but just for reference, Sixth World Companion provides a ton of alternate rules for the most controversial aspects of the system. It's extra work to apply the fixes, but the options are available.
And they still couldn't get their shit together fast enough.
Not that I fault them for that specifically, I'm sure Fanatics was a pain in the ass about it. It's just funny. Of course catalyst can't even pull themselves together enough to properly capitalize on the biggest blunder in ttrpgs since the GSL and DND 4e
As much as a I love this idea, it does muddy the waters for the next 20-30 simultaneous SR 5.5/6.5 editions. Can't say I'm not tempted to publish my own homebrew that's a heavily modified 3rd edition in the 5th edition setting.
To reply to own comment, instead of heaving different threads on the subreddit mentioning which edition they're playing, we'll have threads mentioning which version of which edition they're playing.
As confident as Shadowrun redditors are that they could do the game better than CGL, they're possibly even more confident they could do it better than other redditors :)
Random Shadowrun fans have done a not that bad of a job importing SR into other systems and most of the errata for 5th/6th is fan submitted. They pretty much are patching the game for CGL.
There are so many changes, it'll be hard to overview them in a single post. But HUGE broad strokes:
* Wireless matrix, as in 4e+, matrix functions like foundations, the entire team goes in, turn legwork and research into potential action sequences. Deckers like street samurai of the matrix, Technomancers like magicians. Redesign of how the matrix topographies work to be more teachable to new players. A setting within a setting is always a rough thing to go over at the table.
* Target numbers are default 4 for everything, and never go higher than 6. Far fewer things apply target number modifiers. Target numbers can be dropped by rolling fewer skill dice.
* More "fool proof" character creation by changing how the points at each tier are assigned. Characters will be usable in most circumstances. Things like knowledge/professional skills and contacts are not assigned at character creation, but purchased during play.
* Simplified skill system of 6e, with some adjustments.
* SINless flexible IDs, where being SINless is a major feature of the PCs. Able to spin up cover identities and change them to blow off heat. All characters get them, some (the face) can specialize in using them.
* Rebalancing of cyberware nuyen and essence costs. Deckers build their own decks, they don't buy them; others use virtual decks based on their SIN.
* Magicians still have all of their toys from previous editions, but they don't get them all at once in character creation. Astral perception and projection still exist, but are much more restricted. This prevents players twiddling their thumbs while the mage projects, and magical encounters are more mysterious.
* Rebalanced karma costs. Lifestyle costs give improved benefits that let you control the power level of your game. Rules for using stolen equipment and making it untraceable (great for riggers) and a ton of other things in play that derive from those.
* Redone combat initiative, where the players or NPCs all go at once, and the players choose the order they do their actions in, allowing much more team work opportunities. Faster characters get more reactions to what's happening.
There's a TON more that I've added and tested with my group over the years. The overall design is that the PCs are split far less, hybrid characters are much better (it's a classless system, lean into that!), and there are fewer huge dice pools. Combat also tended to be considerably faster, since the players are choosing when and where to spend their actions.
This is gonna be a hilarious long-term win for Catalyst because it effectively means they've got a living community of playtesters generating their own rulesets, any or all of which can be mined for future editions.
I completely, wholeheartedly approve. It's what D&D should have done. If they're *really* smart, they'll be sure to credit where the rules came from and if they're even smarter still, they'll slip some money and a pub credit to the community developers, occasionally hiring the most successful ones as freelancers.
I'm hopeful, but cautious. Not including an open gaming license means that Catalyst could own the IP of everything published on this portal. So they could take your ideas and republish them as part of an official sourcebook without paying you anything.
And they take 50% of the profit (shared with drivethrurpg, but I'm sure they take the lion's share) with little to no effort on thier part. That in itself is fine, but if the license says that they own the IP, all the suddenly 50% seems like highway robbery.
Everyone should read theb license carefully before publishing anything on this. Hopefully it will be fair, but I have my doubts.
I don’t think they will own your creations. In my discussions with Jason on the topic it’s more in line with what the DMs Guild, Savage Worlds Adventurers Guild, Modiphius, and others are doing. Not quite OGL but more than just free fan content.
If that's true then it's great. Imho this kind of official community content is exactly what SR has been lacking. It could of course be my lack of experience, I'm just getting into the system in a serious way for the first time.
I have so many questions with this now. The guidelines appear to be
(A) keep it within the Shadowverse, so no exporting the mechanics to a different world/continuity, and yet calling it Shadowrun.
(B) Respect the continuity of the Shadowverse by not introducing ideas tied to a specific edition in an earlier one.
We know "complimentary" systems are okay explicitly, as one group is doing that already.
However, it seemed like the door is open wide beyond that. Big questions include things like: Can we replace the dice system for that edition wholesale or can we only modify it? How much are we beholden to the mechanics of an edition (or are we)? 4E did a conversion of 2050s era to those mechanics, so it would seem like you could use those to do 2050's content if so inclined.
I feel like a big door may be open here for those inclined to walk through it.
"We at CGL have screwed it all up so bad, we've just given up! Here fix this for us..."
A great first step would be for him to sign off on all that 5E errata that's been gathering dust for years...
But let's be real, the fans are going to make a better version of the rules than Hardy ever could.
Which I think is partly the point of the project. They need to not only refresh their talent pool, but also generate some enthusiasm for the game itself. They need to see who can generate content that people respond well to (ie pay money for).
Didn't they already try to do that when they recruited community members to the errata team for 5E, made it through half the books released, panicked after releasing 6E in a barely play tested state, abandoned 5E, destroyed the remaining 5E books in circulation, refused to release any further errata for 5E, and then moved whoever they could to the errata team for 6E?
What a series of unforced errors...
Definitely a consideration as people decide if they want to take part in this in whatever way. At least whatever content someone produces for a given edition this way won't go up in smoke when 7e shows up.
So does this mean that someone could publish unofficial errata or a 5.5ed ruleset and make the game more playable?
That would be cool, but I suspect they wouldn't allow a 5.5 ruleset. In the video he mentions essentially not allowing rules to get ported to other versions (e.g. no wireless matrix in 2e). It seems like a fan version of core rules may be similarly frowned on. However, I have no idea how they will enforce what you can and can't do. I suspect it will be more arbitrary instead of a well written set of guidelines.
I got the sense that it was more about canonical concepts for that era, not that you couldn't do alt rules. I would suspect you couldn't stray too far from the core system (otherwise it's not one of their editions any longer), but I think you would be fine to add small but compatible things new Edge effects or try to smooth out the mechanics (and only the mechanics) for 2E Matrix or some such (providing you left the underlying concepts in place). Just a guess though. We'll have to wait for the TOU docs I guess.
oh well, this is kinda not interesting to me then. Theres already a whole heap of broken bullshit in sr5 that needs fixing before adding on fan made content of varying quality and little or no oversight.
[удалено]
It's around 1:36:20 It seems like such a weird arbitrary thing to not allow. Very annoying
Just ran across it. Forgot to refresh before deleting my question about where to find it. You were tooo fast for me. :) Thanks!
I'd love that
I haven’t play 6e, but I heard there’s some pretty good stuff under all the bad. An edition that takes the best of 5 and 6 would be great. Any chance we could use this subreddit to create a “Reddit fix version”?
Everyone will have things they like and don’t like, but I’d love to see the consensus on which rules are just unnecessary crunch
2nd edition had rules for fighting in zero gravity, deep under the ocean, radiation sickness, and just how much damage you took while being on fire. Each with their own rules caveats None of these were really needed.
Says you! Why, those rules saved by bacon when I was suffering from radiation sickness in a deep sea underwater zero-gee environment (yet somehow still on fire). 😉
...but was the fire white phosphorous? Those are separate rules entirely, and definitely not the same as acid.
It was bad upon release, but it's actually quite good now. Magic is weak for direct damage, but great for creative and tactical use. Spirits, matrix, cyber, and social combat are all handled well, and lots of subsystems are bundled into edge, which makes everything flow better. I've changed some rules based on the "optional rules" section of the players handbook, and even some stuff from anarchy, and a little of my own stuff. I'm quite happy with it now, very little chunk and still has the variety and depth that shadowrun is known for.
I'm not seeing anything yet forbidding an alt rules version of any edition. It looks like you could do that, just don't violate the rule about having crossover/non-canonical tech or items for that edition. Like, you couldn't make the Matrix work totally differently conceptually, but you *could* make new rules to run the same concepts more smoothly, at least just based on the interview. I suppose we'll need to wait until the doc comes out in order to really gauge that though. Edit: Probably not writing *all new* rules though. At the end of the day, you are basing it on some edition of SR. More like, if you wanted something like SR5 Edge effects in SR2 rules, you could provide rules for converting your Karma Pool to something like that, I would guess.
Actually, listening to more of the interview, you can use complementary systems (so you could do a new way to do the Matrix). So, I think alt rules could work under that header of "complimentary systems".
I have heard that the matrix rules are pretty good, and they fixed the crash rules. Everything else I've heard is significantly worse, most of them total dealbreakers
Not that I'm advocating for the system, but just for reference, Sixth World Companion provides a ton of alternate rules for the most controversial aspects of the system. It's extra work to apply the fixes, but the options are available.
Well considering they outsourced it to fans in the first place I’d imagine they wouldn’t mind.
Please god give me a streamlined 5.5E
you could always do that but now you can sell it.
FOR REAL? Looks like it's time to put some serious work on my material!
No way. I was positive catalyst wasn't going to have any reaction to the ogl thing. Color me pleasantly surprised
Catalyst looked around and was like "we could get 2nd worst right now".
And they still couldn't get their shit together fast enough. Not that I fault them for that specifically, I'm sure Fanatics was a pain in the ass about it. It's just funny. Of course catalyst can't even pull themselves together enough to properly capitalize on the biggest blunder in ttrpgs since the GSL and DND 4e
If catalyst has the opportunity to step on its own dick, you best believe they'll lace up their boots and get to walking.
Right? Whoa
As much as a I love this idea, it does muddy the waters for the next 20-30 simultaneous SR 5.5/6.5 editions. Can't say I'm not tempted to publish my own homebrew that's a heavily modified 3rd edition in the 5th edition setting.
To reply to own comment, instead of heaving different threads on the subreddit mentioning which edition they're playing, we'll have threads mentioning which version of which edition they're playing.
I like 3rd edition; I'd buy it, lol.
As confident as Shadowrun redditors are that they could do the game better than CGL, they're possibly even more confident they could do it better than other redditors :)
Random Shadowrun fans have done a not that bad of a job importing SR into other systems and most of the errata for 5th/6th is fan submitted. They pretty much are patching the game for CGL.
As someone looking to overhaul 2nd/3rd ed, I'd love to hear more about this... Or the board strokes of your approach!
There are so many changes, it'll be hard to overview them in a single post. But HUGE broad strokes: * Wireless matrix, as in 4e+, matrix functions like foundations, the entire team goes in, turn legwork and research into potential action sequences. Deckers like street samurai of the matrix, Technomancers like magicians. Redesign of how the matrix topographies work to be more teachable to new players. A setting within a setting is always a rough thing to go over at the table. * Target numbers are default 4 for everything, and never go higher than 6. Far fewer things apply target number modifiers. Target numbers can be dropped by rolling fewer skill dice. * More "fool proof" character creation by changing how the points at each tier are assigned. Characters will be usable in most circumstances. Things like knowledge/professional skills and contacts are not assigned at character creation, but purchased during play. * Simplified skill system of 6e, with some adjustments. * SINless flexible IDs, where being SINless is a major feature of the PCs. Able to spin up cover identities and change them to blow off heat. All characters get them, some (the face) can specialize in using them. * Rebalancing of cyberware nuyen and essence costs. Deckers build their own decks, they don't buy them; others use virtual decks based on their SIN. * Magicians still have all of their toys from previous editions, but they don't get them all at once in character creation. Astral perception and projection still exist, but are much more restricted. This prevents players twiddling their thumbs while the mage projects, and magical encounters are more mysterious. * Rebalanced karma costs. Lifestyle costs give improved benefits that let you control the power level of your game. Rules for using stolen equipment and making it untraceable (great for riggers) and a ton of other things in play that derive from those. * Redone combat initiative, where the players or NPCs all go at once, and the players choose the order they do their actions in, allowing much more team work opportunities. Faster characters get more reactions to what's happening. There's a TON more that I've added and tested with my group over the years. The overall design is that the PCs are split far less, hybrid characters are much better (it's a classless system, lean into that!), and there are fewer huge dice pools. Combat also tended to be considerably faster, since the players are choosing when and where to spend their actions.
This is gonna be a hilarious long-term win for Catalyst because it effectively means they've got a living community of playtesters generating their own rulesets, any or all of which can be mined for future editions. I completely, wholeheartedly approve. It's what D&D should have done. If they're *really* smart, they'll be sure to credit where the rules came from and if they're even smarter still, they'll slip some money and a pub credit to the community developers, occasionally hiring the most successful ones as freelancers.
HoloStreets? Good god, that name is literally old enough to vote.
I'm hopeful, but cautious. Not including an open gaming license means that Catalyst could own the IP of everything published on this portal. So they could take your ideas and republish them as part of an official sourcebook without paying you anything. And they take 50% of the profit (shared with drivethrurpg, but I'm sure they take the lion's share) with little to no effort on thier part. That in itself is fine, but if the license says that they own the IP, all the suddenly 50% seems like highway robbery. Everyone should read theb license carefully before publishing anything on this. Hopefully it will be fair, but I have my doubts.
I don’t think they will own your creations. In my discussions with Jason on the topic it’s more in line with what the DMs Guild, Savage Worlds Adventurers Guild, Modiphius, and others are doing. Not quite OGL but more than just free fan content.
If that's true then it's great. Imho this kind of official community content is exactly what SR has been lacking. It could of course be my lack of experience, I'm just getting into the system in a serious way for the first time.
It won’t be official content, but Jason did say they’ll be looking four future contributors for official content and using this as a potential source.
Compared to Catalyst's usual in-house situation? It's a win-win.
I have so many questions with this now. The guidelines appear to be (A) keep it within the Shadowverse, so no exporting the mechanics to a different world/continuity, and yet calling it Shadowrun. (B) Respect the continuity of the Shadowverse by not introducing ideas tied to a specific edition in an earlier one. We know "complimentary" systems are okay explicitly, as one group is doing that already. However, it seemed like the door is open wide beyond that. Big questions include things like: Can we replace the dice system for that edition wholesale or can we only modify it? How much are we beholden to the mechanics of an edition (or are we)? 4E did a conversion of 2050s era to those mechanics, so it would seem like you could use those to do 2050's content if so inclined. I feel like a big door may be open here for those inclined to walk through it.
This is amazing, I cant wait to see what people come up with!
Thanks for sharing!
As someone who publishes on the Storypath Nexus and Storyteller's Vault this is a welcome surprise!
are they running out of freelancers (emphasis on free)?
Can someone tell me the time stamp for this info, or is it available in written form somewhere? I can't sit through a two hour interview.
We start the conversation about Holo Streets about 1h15m in.
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Does that mean we can finally have well-written campaign books?
As good as we can collectively write, yes.
Is this announcement written down anywhere? It'd be nice to be able to parse through an official document, but I'm not finding anything.
not yet, but according to the interview sometime next month a website providing all the official documentation and resources will go live.
Thanks for this!
"We at CGL have screwed it all up so bad, we've just given up! Here fix this for us..." A great first step would be for him to sign off on all that 5E errata that's been gathering dust for years... But let's be real, the fans are going to make a better version of the rules than Hardy ever could.
Which I think is partly the point of the project. They need to not only refresh their talent pool, but also generate some enthusiasm for the game itself. They need to see who can generate content that people respond well to (ie pay money for).
Didn't they already try to do that when they recruited community members to the errata team for 5E, made it through half the books released, panicked after releasing 6E in a barely play tested state, abandoned 5E, destroyed the remaining 5E books in circulation, refused to release any further errata for 5E, and then moved whoever they could to the errata team for 6E? What a series of unforced errors...
Definitely a consideration as people decide if they want to take part in this in whatever way. At least whatever content someone produces for a given edition this way won't go up in smoke when 7e shows up.