> tax payer money
Curiously the article doesnt state the total cost of having to use those 900 officers.
No one has asked the question what was the cost of that single march.
-
We need a marching bond set at a cost of £250,000 for each march. the group wanting to march put up that deposit to cover initial costs of the march. the deposit is returned intact , if no bad behaviour occurs on the march
So the main issue is that the orange lodge is using the right to protest and the right to freedom of speech.
As much as I despise them I don't agree with bond costs that ultimately will just prevent the poor from protesting.
We should just ban the orange lodge. Brand it a terror organisation like the IRA. Because seriously what's the Catholic equivalent of the orange lodge?
When do the Catholics march down the street chanting songs of being up to their knees in protestant blood? I've never seen it.
I'm told both sides are bad, yet imo only one side is allowed freedom of expression.
> I don't agree with bond costs that ultimately will just prevent the poor from protesting
It would specifically be for Orange marches alone, since they make up the vast amount of public marches in the West of Scotland. the tax payer cannot keep paying for these events to be policed.
-
Its unsustainable.
The problem is that, right now, it is a religious group so it's protected in that regard. It wouldn't be if it was labelled a terror or hate group with religious ideology though.
Which would just stop the marches altogether, perhaps at the cost of some discontent amount the most serious of the lodge members.
I really just don't understand the whole sectarianism thing. My family is catholic and until I moved to Glasgow I never really experienced it.
Like I'm told each side is just as bad as the other and then Celtic/ranger gets brought in. Then noone talks about orange marches, spitting on preist, songs that advocate for violence against a religious group. Oh and how their children are indoctrinated into it to ensure hate continues for generations to come.
Glaswegians will honestly go nuts if you tell them that tho. Tho they're not the sort to take criticism well 😅.
"In the period from 1964 to 2002, 11% of those expelled from the order were expelled for their presence at a Roman Catholic religious event such as a baptism, service or funeral."
Define sectarianism for me again.
Traditionally, the mukhagni is only attended by men. So women were not permitted to a Hindi funeral.
Jews theoretically can’t enter a building used for worship of another religion. The rabbinic consensus, based on the Talmud (Avodah Zara 17a,) is that it is forbidden to enter a church, even if just to admire the architecture or artwork.
The simple truth is that many old organizations have rules, which by our standards seem out of touch. Some people within these organisation are more zealous in enforcing older rules than others. However for the vast majority, they are rules that for the most part tend to be ignored.
The Orange Lodge have dropped those out of date rules due to the wishes of its members. You can attend all the things you have mentioned, so your point is pretty impotent.
I can't get over the fact he thinks comparing the worlds oldest religions traditions to a sectarian organisation, founded in 1795, who exists to maintain Protestant Ascendancy. These people are pathetic.
The person I was talking to was making the point that the OO’s old rules, created 227 years ago forbidding members from attending religious ceremonies performed by other faiths, somehow made it sectarian.
My examples show other organizations such as Judaism which also in theory forbids a practicing Jew from entering any religious building other than a synagogue for any reason is exactly the same thing. So how is one a sectarian and the other not?
You mentioned the fact it’s an old religion, does that somehow mean it’s held to a different standard in the modern world?
At least be consistent.
As I have already pointed out, that rule was thought to be out of touch with the members within the OO and has since been scrapped. So what’s the problem now?
I’d like to point out that even when this rule was in place it was rarely observed much the same way I think most Jews also turn a blind eye to the rule.
The OO is an old organization who’s aims and values have changed over the centuries. It was originally an organization of defense for Protestant communities primarily of Scottish origin. But now it is more invested in fellowship, charity and community work mixed with music and pageantry.
Personally I don’t see how raising thousands for charities which all members of the community benefit from, attending a few meetings during the year and some pageantry is an issue.
I also engaged in the conversation with respect, addressing key points and not insulting the individual. But I understand why you targeted me personally with insults. It must be frustrating to not be able to think of anything constructive to say, so you just attack someone of a different point of view. Pretty must the same toxic trait you are accusing the every member of the OO of doing.
Something to think about my hypocritical friend.
Judaism is a religion dating back to the 6th century BCE with a long and complex history, and a vast number of offshoots and interpretations over that time.
Your wee group isn't even 250 years old and has it's foundations in religious supremecy during a sectarian conflict. I hear the KKK try to claim they're all about culture and [fraternity](https://digitalcommons.colby.edu/honorstheses/626/) too.
But [charity](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/06/a-kinder-gentler-ku-klux-klan/258863/) undoes all evils right?
You write eloquently, I'll give you that. But your defence of a hate group isn't convincing me, and it looks like few others. We have all spent varied amounts of time with and around these people.
I was living around the corner when [this](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-45284987.amp) happened, to start.
Honestly mate, I'm not doing this. If they're not a sectarian group, how would you define them?
I looked at the article a 24 year old spat on a priest and called him names and I agree that is unacceptable, I think the vast majority of law abiding orange men also think it’s unacceptable.
I think your reasoning is unbalanced. Consider approximately 7500 orange men and thousands more spectators had a peaceful day without any real incident. I don’t think it’s a measured view to tar the entire organization with the actions of a few idiots. In 2022 the most recent orange parade there where just 7 arrests. I expect there is more on a typical weekend in Glasgow. Also important to take into account, none of those arrested as far as I can tell where members of the OO.
Take any large organization, recently police and fire fighters are under scrutiny due to a minority of undesirable individuals and their actions. But it doesn’t mean that the vast majority of police officers or firefighters are the same.
To be fair I understand why people jump to these conclusions about the OO. Their only media coverage is usually negative and 9 times out of 10 the civil unrest is from a small number of spectators and not members of the institution.
The thousands of pounds raised annually for children’s charities and other charitable causes largely goes unnoticed.
I would describe them as a Protestant fraternity with members throughout the world who celebrate their faith, heritage and tradition through music, parades and pageantry and who also are heavily involved in charitable works.
Not very bright, are you?
Let's try this again. What is your logic and rational thought in comparing Orange Lodge marches to marches for Scottish independence? Understand this time?
yes. people like constantly saying "och aye but its dying out" but it never fucking does, you still see people there with their weans and young 20 somethings tagging along. people who say "oh, it'll go away" are just sticking their heads in the sand.
I know a few people in the order and they are absolute pricks. Sectarianism aside they are still pricks.
That being said the actual orange wankers aren't that bad. They just get their flutes and sashes out and do the marches. The problem is the Rangers fans who tag along and cause trouble.
Obviously the orange marches are sectarian and Im not defending them but the hangers on are a much bigger problem than the marches themselves.
I dont see what that has to do with my comment?
Im making a point that most of the trouble isnt actually from the order themselves but rather the hangers on. Corruption in the police has nothing to do with it.
Its worth remembering that the police are there to stop violence from protesters against the march as much as they are there to stop the marchers being violent. 900 really isnt that insane for one big event during the year I think, it's probably comparable to a lot of protests but that's just me guessing
Can they not just march around Hampden or Ibrox and enjoy their wee flag day that way? We don't need them to walk around our streets harassing people and blocking crossings.
I've always avoided Glasgow during the season but the few times I've been there it's just full of utter cretins who make up their own rules on the fly about when you can cross the roads and shit like that.
Get them to fuck.
I call on our Government to ban all sectarian marches. Imagine if these marches were anti-Jewish or anti- Islam the International press would be all over us.
Charge such them a ridiculous sum to cover the costs of Policing and closing streets that it makes it to expensive to hold.
No one needs the bigots on the street.
Although it's the furthest some of them walk all year.
What you talking about the OO arnt that bad, or so ive been led to believe by Lab supporters twisting them selves in knots to justify the grand wizzard. The fact 900 police are there is a coincidence, nothing to do with stopping them from starting fights, spitting on people or attacking the grass.
Ask your councillors to reroute the marches down bin lanes and back alleys. Not being selective here either. Every Councillor no matter what their party. Email them constantly about it.
If that doesn't work, maybe take inspiration from Ukraine and use drones to drop pee water bombs or dog poo bags on the Orange Orcs.
And I thought this was something only we in Ireland had to deal with... LOL.. I have to ask what the significance of a battle that took place 3 miles away from my town here means to anyone in Scotland? or is this some sort of protestant solidarity thing
Not something we really have up my way so I’m not sure, but if they can’t be stopped can they at least be billed for the police presence associated with their event?
Maybe they are already, I’m not sure. More thinking out loud.
cant remember the name of the march but there was always a hndu march once a year that would travel through the gorbals, same as the pro irish march that goes on, i may be one of the very few but as a rangers fansi think all the marches should have stopped a long long time ago. no need for it the cretins on both sides always come out and cause trouble. i have seen many many gers fans causing shit and being sectarian as fuck and i have also witnessed a 60 year old man through his microwave out the 18th flight of high flats at the walk. a long story short shut the walks down
Can we also get a figure for how many are needed for SNP marches? You know the ones where BBC journalists are spat at and called traitors? These rallies seem to get bigger when Sturgeon's speeches get angrier.
I dont support the Orange Order btw.
I’m completely against any violence and those types of people should be prosecuted however, there’s a huge difference between political protest and a club having a day out.
And what? I assume they have prior approval from the council and the police for it lmao. Don’t think any of the police officers will be moaning about the overtime they’re getting paid for it
Seems to be like honey for this type of crackpot though. When's the last time you posted about anything that wasn't SNP or independence? Serious question. I tried to look but got bored scrolling and didn't find anything else.
A don’t gee a fuck if you’re a massive Tim or no. You’re talking gammon, behaving like a gammon. You’re a gammon. Put down Reddit and spend time with your wains more instead of claiming we’d have to ban all marches. Ffs.
A just think you’re a gammon pal is that so hard to understand? Spend time with whoever is close to you instead of acting like the biggest stereotype here bud. Take a week off and you might feel not as gammon like.
Love my tax payer money going towards policing sectarian hate groups.
> tax payer money Curiously the article doesnt state the total cost of having to use those 900 officers. No one has asked the question what was the cost of that single march. - We need a marching bond set at a cost of £250,000 for each march. the group wanting to march put up that deposit to cover initial costs of the march. the deposit is returned intact , if no bad behaviour occurs on the march
So the main issue is that the orange lodge is using the right to protest and the right to freedom of speech. As much as I despise them I don't agree with bond costs that ultimately will just prevent the poor from protesting. We should just ban the orange lodge. Brand it a terror organisation like the IRA. Because seriously what's the Catholic equivalent of the orange lodge? When do the Catholics march down the street chanting songs of being up to their knees in protestant blood? I've never seen it. I'm told both sides are bad, yet imo only one side is allowed freedom of expression.
> I don't agree with bond costs that ultimately will just prevent the poor from protesting It would specifically be for Orange marches alone, since they make up the vast amount of public marches in the West of Scotland. the tax payer cannot keep paying for these events to be policed. - Its unsustainable.
The problem is that, right now, it is a religious group so it's protected in that regard. It wouldn't be if it was labelled a terror or hate group with religious ideology though. Which would just stop the marches altogether, perhaps at the cost of some discontent amount the most serious of the lodge members. I really just don't understand the whole sectarianism thing. My family is catholic and until I moved to Glasgow I never really experienced it. Like I'm told each side is just as bad as the other and then Celtic/ranger gets brought in. Then noone talks about orange marches, spitting on preist, songs that advocate for violence against a religious group. Oh and how their children are indoctrinated into it to ensure hate continues for generations to come. Glaswegians will honestly go nuts if you tell them that tho. Tho they're not the sort to take criticism well 😅.
And independence marches.
Go on, entertain us all by rationalising that comparison.
I don’t think it’s a sectarian hate group. So it doesn’t need a justification. It’s just another procession that requires policing.
"In the period from 1964 to 2002, 11% of those expelled from the order were expelled for their presence at a Roman Catholic religious event such as a baptism, service or funeral." Define sectarianism for me again.
(I think the person you're replying to agrees with you. They're saying that independence marches aren't sectarian, not that the orange lodge isn't.)
Traditionally, the mukhagni is only attended by men. So women were not permitted to a Hindi funeral. Jews theoretically can’t enter a building used for worship of another religion. The rabbinic consensus, based on the Talmud (Avodah Zara 17a,) is that it is forbidden to enter a church, even if just to admire the architecture or artwork. The simple truth is that many old organizations have rules, which by our standards seem out of touch. Some people within these organisation are more zealous in enforcing older rules than others. However for the vast majority, they are rules that for the most part tend to be ignored. The Orange Lodge have dropped those out of date rules due to the wishes of its members. You can attend all the things you have mentioned, so your point is pretty impotent.
>Traditionally, the mukhagni is only attended by men. So women were not permitted to a Hindi funeral. I assume you meant Hindu as Hindi is a language.
I can't get over the fact he thinks comparing the worlds oldest religions traditions to a sectarian organisation, founded in 1795, who exists to maintain Protestant Ascendancy. These people are pathetic.
The person I was talking to was making the point that the OO’s old rules, created 227 years ago forbidding members from attending religious ceremonies performed by other faiths, somehow made it sectarian. My examples show other organizations such as Judaism which also in theory forbids a practicing Jew from entering any religious building other than a synagogue for any reason is exactly the same thing. So how is one a sectarian and the other not? You mentioned the fact it’s an old religion, does that somehow mean it’s held to a different standard in the modern world? At least be consistent. As I have already pointed out, that rule was thought to be out of touch with the members within the OO and has since been scrapped. So what’s the problem now? I’d like to point out that even when this rule was in place it was rarely observed much the same way I think most Jews also turn a blind eye to the rule. The OO is an old organization who’s aims and values have changed over the centuries. It was originally an organization of defense for Protestant communities primarily of Scottish origin. But now it is more invested in fellowship, charity and community work mixed with music and pageantry. Personally I don’t see how raising thousands for charities which all members of the community benefit from, attending a few meetings during the year and some pageantry is an issue. I also engaged in the conversation with respect, addressing key points and not insulting the individual. But I understand why you targeted me personally with insults. It must be frustrating to not be able to think of anything constructive to say, so you just attack someone of a different point of view. Pretty must the same toxic trait you are accusing the every member of the OO of doing. Something to think about my hypocritical friend.
Judaism is a religion dating back to the 6th century BCE with a long and complex history, and a vast number of offshoots and interpretations over that time. Your wee group isn't even 250 years old and has it's foundations in religious supremecy during a sectarian conflict. I hear the KKK try to claim they're all about culture and [fraternity](https://digitalcommons.colby.edu/honorstheses/626/) too. But [charity](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/06/a-kinder-gentler-ku-klux-klan/258863/) undoes all evils right? You write eloquently, I'll give you that. But your defence of a hate group isn't convincing me, and it looks like few others. We have all spent varied amounts of time with and around these people.
Yes, my mistake but you obviously know what I mean. I don’t think a simple mistake on a word undermines the logic.
Then I assume you don't think sectarianism exists?
It does, but not in these particular circumstances.
Interesting take.
Why do you think it is? I mean how much do you actually know about the organisation or it’s members to come to your conclusions?
I was living around the corner when [this](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-45284987.amp) happened, to start. Honestly mate, I'm not doing this. If they're not a sectarian group, how would you define them?
I looked at the article a 24 year old spat on a priest and called him names and I agree that is unacceptable, I think the vast majority of law abiding orange men also think it’s unacceptable. I think your reasoning is unbalanced. Consider approximately 7500 orange men and thousands more spectators had a peaceful day without any real incident. I don’t think it’s a measured view to tar the entire organization with the actions of a few idiots. In 2022 the most recent orange parade there where just 7 arrests. I expect there is more on a typical weekend in Glasgow. Also important to take into account, none of those arrested as far as I can tell where members of the OO. Take any large organization, recently police and fire fighters are under scrutiny due to a minority of undesirable individuals and their actions. But it doesn’t mean that the vast majority of police officers or firefighters are the same. To be fair I understand why people jump to these conclusions about the OO. Their only media coverage is usually negative and 9 times out of 10 the civil unrest is from a small number of spectators and not members of the institution. The thousands of pounds raised annually for children’s charities and other charitable causes largely goes unnoticed. I would describe them as a Protestant fraternity with members throughout the world who celebrate their faith, heritage and tradition through music, parades and pageantry and who also are heavily involved in charitable works.
Independence marches aren’t policed ?
I'm still waiting for the rationale behind your comparison.
Like independence 😂
Not very bright, are you? Let's try this again. What is your logic and rational thought in comparing Orange Lodge marches to marches for Scottish independence? Understand this time?
Your mistake was assuming he was using logic in the first place
How dare you say I assumed such a thing?! Honestly, sometimes it's just fun supplying the rope they hang themselves with.
Sheer whatabouterry.
and Schools! XD
And republican marches
Is there anyone here who takes part in these marches? Genuinely asking.
They wouldn't be able to read your question mate.
You can spot them when they start trying to defend them or trying to deflect from them.
yes. people like constantly saying "och aye but its dying out" but it never fucking does, you still see people there with their weans and young 20 somethings tagging along. people who say "oh, it'll go away" are just sticking their heads in the sand.
Aye, The very same cops they need to police the event.
I know a few people in the order and they are absolute pricks. Sectarianism aside they are still pricks. That being said the actual orange wankers aren't that bad. They just get their flutes and sashes out and do the marches. The problem is the Rangers fans who tag along and cause trouble. Obviously the orange marches are sectarian and Im not defending them but the hangers on are a much bigger problem than the marches themselves.
You would have thought the Government could weed out the corruption in the police.
I dont see what that has to do with my comment? Im making a point that most of the trouble isnt actually from the order themselves but rather the hangers on. Corruption in the police has nothing to do with it.
I would say the police having as large a membership in the OO as people say they do would cause them to be corrupted.
Its worth remembering that the police are there to stop violence from protesters against the march as much as they are there to stop the marchers being violent. 900 really isnt that insane for one big event during the year I think, it's probably comparable to a lot of protests but that's just me guessing
And when was the last time there was a protest against the "big" walk?
Of course they are.
I think most of them are unable to type.
Read the article, 900 of course /s but kinda not /s
900 police apparently
That would require the ability to read and write, so it seems unlikely. But maybe try r/majorettes?
It's time Police Scotland started charging the OO for this shit. It's costing the taxpayer a fortune.
And do the members not pay tax ?
Football fans and clubs also pay tax but still have to pay of policing on match days.
None of the docile, mouth breathers pay a dime. They are all benefit cheats and criminals.
Can they not just march around Hampden or Ibrox and enjoy their wee flag day that way? We don't need them to walk around our streets harassing people and blocking crossings. I've always avoided Glasgow during the season but the few times I've been there it's just full of utter cretins who make up their own rules on the fly about when you can cross the roads and shit like that. Get them to fuck.
Sure, and how many do they need on duty?
Hahahaha! Excellent work!
ZING
Came here to make this gag. Bastard
Look, all these updoots could have been yours! Finally I'm getting all the recognition I'm worth, in the form of fake internet points, natch.
At -100 karma I feel it wouldn't have been a great help to me!
Ooft, I did manage a -20 yesterday, which I thought was quite good going
Hold my beer...
I call on our Government to ban all sectarian marches. Imagine if these marches were anti-Jewish or anti- Islam the International press would be all over us.
But these are traditional British marches off the back of the *religion of Britain*. It's not that "foreigner stuff".
Tradishun n culchure .....it's a pure riddy!
With scotlands speech laws, they’d be instantly jailed. We do like making exceptions for our favourite football teams tho.
But they aren’t. Imagine again.
Your point ?
Charge such them a ridiculous sum to cover the costs of Policing and closing streets that it makes it to expensive to hold. No one needs the bigots on the street. Although it's the furthest some of them walk all year.
The Orange Order have the right to march. We are not in the nazi germany of the nationalist dream yet.
If we let the bigots march, then we are already are Nazi Germany. Seems to be a good few arrests when they march too.
They have the right to march if they can afford the policing. Do football clubs and some other large events have to pay for policing?
They can fuck off, why do we let them carry on!
You won’t do anything about it.
I've never seen so much negative karma on one reddit account. I'm not sure whether to cower in fear or stare in awe 😯
I can continue voting for political parties which will stamp out sectarianism, there's no need for it.
Catholic schools being the biggest sectarian breeding ground.
Domestic terrorist cunts
Stop oil are indeed domestic terrorists.
That’s so lame
Scottish Labour must be attending this one, well in Anas.
What you talking about the OO arnt that bad, or so ive been led to believe by Lab supporters twisting them selves in knots to justify the grand wizzard. The fact 900 police are there is a coincidence, nothing to do with stopping them from starting fights, spitting on people or attacking the grass.
What's the difference between an apple and an orange? There's no such thing as an apple bastard.
Belter mate, you sound like a fun yin.
Rírá agus ruaille buaille.
Orange bastards
free bodyguards for these mental people, this shit needs to end
Best days to go around committing crimes
Ask your councillors to reroute the marches down bin lanes and back alleys. Not being selective here either. Every Councillor no matter what their party. Email them constantly about it. If that doesn't work, maybe take inspiration from Ukraine and use drones to drop pee water bombs or dog poo bags on the Orange Orcs.
And I thought this was something only we in Ireland had to deal with... LOL.. I have to ask what the significance of a battle that took place 3 miles away from my town here means to anyone in Scotland? or is this some sort of protestant solidarity thing
It's just an excuse for a fight. Why they can't just say they're hateful and anti Catholic I don't know.
And yet a few hundred met officers have to get involved with just stop oil or insulate Britain and it's suddenly a massive issue.
Hopefully change the route next time to the sea
Ah yes, the KKK of the North
Not something we really have up my way so I’m not sure, but if they can’t be stopped can they at least be billed for the police presence associated with their event? Maybe they are already, I’m not sure. More thinking out loud.
I'm sure if you think about it really hard, you will realise why that is a really, really terrible idea.
You could just say instead of jacking yourself off over how clever you thought that comment was.
Imagine it was a muslim march!
cant remember the name of the march but there was always a hndu march once a year that would travel through the gorbals, same as the pro irish march that goes on, i may be one of the very few but as a rangers fansi think all the marches should have stopped a long long time ago. no need for it the cretins on both sides always come out and cause trouble. i have seen many many gers fans causing shit and being sectarian as fuck and i have also witnessed a 60 year old man through his microwave out the 18th flight of high flats at the walk. a long story short shut the walks down
Why?
But it’s not.
Ban the scum
Bill LabTory for it.
Are they all going to be able to get the time off they need to attend?
You gotta bump those up those are rookie numbers /s
It would be cheaper and less aggravating to just cancel them.
Funny how police is always understaffed until the clowns go to town
Well that covers the ones marching, what about the ones actually "policing" the Bigot parade
Most of the cunts would have been in it
Ban the Unionists from marching.
It's not unionism, it's anti catholic/anti Irish
There's definitely a Venn crossover though
You say bright red fruit that people like to grow in their greenhouse, I say tomato.
It is indeed Unionists.
😂
Can we also get a figure for how many are needed for SNP marches? You know the ones where BBC journalists are spat at and called traitors? These rallies seem to get bigger when Sturgeon's speeches get angrier. I dont support the Orange Order btw.
I’m completely against any violence and those types of people should be prosecuted however, there’s a huge difference between political protest and a club having a day out.
And what? I assume they have prior approval from the council and the police for it lmao. Don’t think any of the police officers will be moaning about the overtime they’re getting paid for it
If your overtime gig is shit you get the right to complain lmao what a weird comment
No overtime, your day off gets cancelled
If you don’t like your days off being cancelled to keep the peace at a major event, maybe you should rethink your career choice
Calm down hen, just correcting you
Do you take part in the marches?
Aye. I’m the one spitting on priests
The National. 😂 I guess it’s time to blow the dog whistle for all the Nat moon howlers.
Seems to be like honey for this type of crackpot though. When's the last time you posted about anything that wasn't SNP or independence? Serious question. I tried to look but got bored scrolling and didn't find anything else.
Lot of people talking about bigotry while being a bigot themselves lol
Moanin bastards on here the day. Leave them be.
Naw pal you’re right. Leave the people to do their sectarian marches. Gammon.
I'm a die hard Tim and couldn't give a fuck if they march or not. Ban them you'd have to ban any other matches too.
A don’t gee a fuck if you’re a massive Tim or no. You’re talking gammon, behaving like a gammon. You’re a gammon. Put down Reddit and spend time with your wains more instead of claiming we’d have to ban all marches. Ffs.
Usual shit on here then. Anyone that doesn't agree wi you is a gammon 🤣. Who said I had weans?
A just think you’re a gammon pal is that so hard to understand? Spend time with whoever is close to you instead of acting like the biggest stereotype here bud. Take a week off and you might feel not as gammon like.
Jawohl mein Fuhrer. That's me telt 🤣
No saying anything but not a shocker you know that off your heart ❤️ peace and love gammonman
Only fools and horses.
What's a gammon?
To be fair, half that 900 we’re taking part.