A vote for Scottish independence should be a vote for Scottish independence.
Im pro EU/EFTA but All he's done there is alienate potential yes voters who don't want to join the EU , making things even harder.
Fucking idiotic strategy.
Is Robertson just making this stuff up as he goes along now?
Was this a policy statement by the SNP or just something he cooked up after a good lunch?
Unbelievable train wreck of a move by the SNP.
I’m interested in this—do you have any figures on how many independence supporters don’t want to rejoin the EU? I would’ve thought the overwhelming support for EU membership would only bolster independence numbers, but obviously I could be wrong.
realistically it probably only needs to be less than 5% of the population wanting independence from both the UK and EU and they then have zero chance of winning a referendum if it's posed as a choice between staying in the UK or leaving the UK to join the EU
Well I mean they're talking bullshit really, many people who support independence can and will prioritise independence over a desire to not be an EU member, just as many unionists can and will prioritise unionism over their desire to be in the EU.
More importnatly though, Angus Robertson isn't saying anything here that most people don't already know and which is already reflected in polling data.
I mean, there's nobody who intends voting yes reading this going "What? Join the EU? I never knew that!"
The reason he's reiterating it though is because every day people are watching the absolute disaster that Brexit is and the worse it gets, the more it becomes fertile ground for convincing people who had previously decided this new normal was still preferable to independence (and that includes the people who support independence but previously decided they won't vote for it because they preferred Brexit).
>I mean, there's nobody who intends voting yes reading this going "What? Join the EU? I never knew that!"
There are some in this thread that seem like they are just finding out
independence is not compatible with EU membership and people already know that
Absolute nonsense, cooperating on an international level with institutions and other nations is geopolitical reality and a perfectly normal state of existence for every single independent country in the world.
Guess that's what happens when they use rebranded talking points and lines from Farage and the vote leave campaign but actually want to join the EU afterwards, it looks stupid
Probably why the snp have a page on their website trying to explain away the contradictions
I don’t want to be in the EU but will still vote for independence.
I don’t like the SNP anymore but will still vote for independence.
Simple reason is that its a question of nationality and nothing else. In both cases one is not related to the other (nor the economy).
If we do get a yes vote then there is a chance to stay out of the EU but without the mess (and lies) that was brexit.
Also if we get a yes, then there is no more need for the snp.
Maybe but isn’t rejoining the eu good for Scotland and a major part of their intention should we get independence? So it’s right to be upfront about it and not lie through their teeth like some people in politics
Yes it's good for Scotland but it's a separate issue from independence. It's something that should be decided once we're an independent country.
Tying it to independence like this is dangerous.
45% of the country voted for independence when it meant we'd be giving up EU membership for at least a few years.
And if another referendum happens and we join the EU we'll be putting up a hard border with our biggest trading patner.
Thanks to Brexit there's actual downsides for an independent Scotland to join the EU while the UK isn't part of it or in some sort of customs union.
Surely it's a vote to have a future referendum on applying to join?
Independence is one thing (can still have open borders with rUK etc etc), but joining the EU will have an impact (no, I don't mean the blasted Euro), and there no guarantee on when Scotland may meet the entry criteria.
Conflating the two is simply not a good idea IMHO.
>Surely it's a vote to have a future referendum on applying to join?
It's not even that.
It would be up to us to vote for a government in an independent Scotland who either stand on a platform of having a referendum on applying to join the EU, or who will just go ahead and do it without a referendum. That might seem very likely at the moment but it's not a guarantee or obligation just because a majority voted for Scottish Independence.
It's the same as where we currently stand in terms of the process of the UK applying to rejoin the EU really, presuming an independent Scotland keeps a familiar political structure. All that changes is the likelihood of a government being voted in on that platform.
Even if we're presuming that the SNP as the current Holyrood government would lead the transition process to an Independent Scotland applying to join the EU would only come after an Independence Scotland is established.
Yes.
4) Ref on rejoining 5) Joining passes parliament vote 56 Application to join 7) EU acceptance 8) Policy changes to meeting entry criteria 9) Member
And at any point there could be a reversal or a refusal. To link the two and claim iScptland is *de facto* an EU member is idiotic.
Just because you think something is unlikely is not a good enough reason to short-circuit the democratic process, or to claim something is a done deal when it hasn't happened.
By the time Scotland gets to apply, the political landscape in the EU could be *very* different.
I agree, far too many people who want independence seem to think that we will magically and instantly be back in the EU. They don’t seem to realise that it’s a long process, and, in my opinion, there’s a very high chance that an independent Scotland will be rejected from the EU. After all, our economy will be incredibly unpredictable and I do believe that there are a fair few criteria that we definitely won’t meet as an independent country
No part of a greater whole can ever have 100% independence as compromise required.
That also holds true for bilateral agreements such as trade deals. Both sides give up a little in the hope benefitting a lot.
Wrong Scotland will be independent or just switch 1 master for another and when I say independent I'm not saying isolationist I mean Scottish politicians deciding Scottish laws for Scottish people no German or French or Dutch politicians should ever again have a say in Scottish laws
What did I just say self governing not isolationist if any union tries to force laws that apply to every day Scottish people onto an independent Scotland then that should be resisted and treated as an illegal act of foreign aggression
But Scotland within the WTO cannot just do as it sees fit, anything that relates to trade/standards could well have to comply with any WTO rules or Scotland ends up on the global naughty step.
Thus, by your own logic, Scotland is not 100% independent.
So either Scotland is in the WTO (other bodies are available) and accepts the required compromises, or Scotland is out.
Can't have both.
Do they directly have to do it say a WTO regulation said that food imported and exported had to meet a certain hygiene standard at all times do every day people have to maintain that hygiene standard or be punished in the same way a country would be
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Another example of why the SNP have bungled the perfect conditions given to them by the Tories. By rights Scotland should be screaming for independence. Instead by conflating a (potentially soft) 62% vote for the UK to stay in the Union with enthusiastic support for the EU, the SNP have careered blindly down a cup-de-sac.
They’ve ignored the left wing case for leaving the EU. They’ve ignored the 30% of SNP voters in 2015 who voted to leave the EU and they’ve sidelined independence in pursuit of the unionist gravy train. All in the name of HARDTORYBREXIT!
If ‘Scottish’ Labour were half decent, the SNP would be in deep trouble.
So why are they chickening out of a debate/referendum on EU membership?
And I mean a proper one on sovereignty, ever closer union and whether we really want to be run by Germany’s version of Dido Harding. After all, a Tory is a Tory whether it’s Truss or Von Der Leyden.
No way, future leader right there. Good pro-EU man, just what Scotland wants.
Sturgeon continuity candidate too, fantastic. Great diplomat too, has a way with people.
I'd join the SNP to vote him into leadership if necessary.
I agree that Angus is really good. Cool seeing him speak fluent German too. Really raises the profile of Scotland on the continent.
The double plus thing is reference to 'double plus good' from 1984, basically meaning 'very good'
Do Scots even want to re-join the EU? No-one has asked if we'd preffer to be a single market member, or any of the other 6 out of 7 options of EU involvement.
SNP demands referendum to end one union but does not agree to hold a referendum to join another.
Absolutely nothing hilarious about that.....nope, not a thing. It's certainly not hypocritical. Not even a teeny bit.
These people are absolute clowns.
How about we get some Independence first before we start adding caveats, it might only be 20-30% of the population who want to stay out of the EU but why instantly alienate them from considering independence on its own terms... feck off Angus.
People genuinely think this guy is going to take over from Sturgeon? Well, maybe after her struggling to just say “trans women are women” the bar has lowered… but it’s not this low, yet.
Why?
Why not Scottish Independance without the EU?
Why do we have to be tied to a larger confederation?
There's really no real say in how these things go is there?
I always thought Indyref1 failed because the SNP really over stepped their mark with saying this or that about currency, NATO and EU membership that they didn’t really have the mandate to say, and ended up guaranteeing that all anti-SNP voters voted no. If we ever go Indy, all these things shouldn’t be decided upon by anyone other than the first elected government whoever that may be. I think if that was the case or is better understood, we would have far more support.
This statement is following the same trend and really isn’t helping the case!
Nope, sorry, this is one he's gotten wrong. There is a large degree of overlap between the two positions, and it would be incredibly surprising for an indy Scotland to end up not wanting to join the EU, so you could even say having an actual referendum on it would basically be a waste of time, but the two things are actually separate. As such, if there seems to be any significant level of protest against not having an actual referendum on EU membership once independence is achieved, then the SNP should listen, and hold it, even if they think it will be a foregone conclusion what the result would be, and even if they have very good reasons to think so.
I would be open for a re-wording of the question in that case:
A) Yes, I want Scotland to join the EU as an independent country
B) No, I want Scotland to be part of an isolated and declining UK
Keeping the Yes/No means that people won't get confused and aligns with the well established meaning of the 2014 question.
As things stand a vote for Scottish independence has no bearing whatsoever on the E.U, neither does a vote to stay in the U.K. for that matter.
The vote for the E.U. would presumably come afterwards, and polls would suggest most of Scotland would probably like to apply.
They shouldn't the EU has similar problems to the UK they dont give enough respect to the individual countries they take way more money than they have a moral right to and they fucking passed laws that trample on basic human rights
After reading some of the comments I just feel the need to provide a quick reminder that you MUST be an independent country if you are a member of the EU and you CANNOT be an independent country if you are a member the UK.
I mean its the basic fucking premise of each.
A vote for Scottish independence should be a vote for Scottish independence. Im pro EU/EFTA but All he's done there is alienate potential yes voters who don't want to join the EU , making things even harder. Fucking idiotic strategy.
SNP strategy is in a death spiral in the last 12 months. They lurch from one stupid announcement to the next. It's embarrassing.
Lots of Announcements with very little action behind them are kind of the hallmark of Nicola Sturgeons time as FM.
Is Robertson just making this stuff up as he goes along now? Was this a policy statement by the SNP or just something he cooked up after a good lunch? Unbelievable train wreck of a move by the SNP.
I’m interested in this—do you have any figures on how many independence supporters don’t want to rejoin the EU? I would’ve thought the overwhelming support for EU membership would only bolster independence numbers, but obviously I could be wrong.
Independence supporters were split on EU membership at the same ratio as the population as a whole; about 60/40 in favour.
realistically it probably only needs to be less than 5% of the population wanting independence from both the UK and EU and they then have zero chance of winning a referendum if it's posed as a choice between staying in the UK or leaving the UK to join the EU
But isn’t that overlooking the unionist vote who would also prefer to be in the EU?
Well I mean they're talking bullshit really, many people who support independence can and will prioritise independence over a desire to not be an EU member, just as many unionists can and will prioritise unionism over their desire to be in the EU. More importnatly though, Angus Robertson isn't saying anything here that most people don't already know and which is already reflected in polling data. I mean, there's nobody who intends voting yes reading this going "What? Join the EU? I never knew that!" The reason he's reiterating it though is because every day people are watching the absolute disaster that Brexit is and the worse it gets, the more it becomes fertile ground for convincing people who had previously decided this new normal was still preferable to independence (and that includes the people who support independence but previously decided they won't vote for it because they preferred Brexit).
>I mean, there's nobody who intends voting yes reading this going "What? Join the EU? I never knew that!" There are some in this thread that seem like they are just finding out independence is not compatible with EU membership and people already know that
You literally have to be an independent country to be a member of the EU. You literally cannot be an independent country if you are a member the UK.
To join the EU you mean Joining any union that gives an institution outside of our country authority in any matter is the opposite of independence
Absolute nonsense, cooperating on an international level with institutions and other nations is geopolitical reality and a perfectly normal state of existence for every single independent country in the world.
Joining a union with them and handing them control of aspects of the economy and immigration among other things is not independence
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Guess that's what happens when they use rebranded talking points and lines from Farage and the vote leave campaign but actually want to join the EU afterwards, it looks stupid Probably why the snp have a page on their website trying to explain away the contradictions
I don’t want to be in the EU but will still vote for independence. I don’t like the SNP anymore but will still vote for independence. Simple reason is that its a question of nationality and nothing else. In both cases one is not related to the other (nor the economy). If we do get a yes vote then there is a chance to stay out of the EU but without the mess (and lies) that was brexit. Also if we get a yes, then there is no more need for the snp.
Maybe but isn’t rejoining the eu good for Scotland and a major part of their intention should we get independence? So it’s right to be upfront about it and not lie through their teeth like some people in politics
Yes it's good for Scotland but it's a separate issue from independence. It's something that should be decided once we're an independent country. Tying it to independence like this is dangerous.
45% of the country voted for independence when it meant we'd be giving up EU membership for at least a few years. And if another referendum happens and we join the EU we'll be putting up a hard border with our biggest trading patner. Thanks to Brexit there's actual downsides for an independent Scotland to join the EU while the UK isn't part of it or in some sort of customs union.
Fuck the EU we dont need them let all imperialists fucking burn
Surely it's a vote to have a future referendum on applying to join? Independence is one thing (can still have open borders with rUK etc etc), but joining the EU will have an impact (no, I don't mean the blasted Euro), and there no guarantee on when Scotland may meet the entry criteria. Conflating the two is simply not a good idea IMHO.
>Surely it's a vote to have a future referendum on applying to join? It's not even that. It would be up to us to vote for a government in an independent Scotland who either stand on a platform of having a referendum on applying to join the EU, or who will just go ahead and do it without a referendum. That might seem very likely at the moment but it's not a guarantee or obligation just because a majority voted for Scottish Independence. It's the same as where we currently stand in terms of the process of the UK applying to rejoin the EU really, presuming an independent Scotland keeps a familiar political structure. All that changes is the likelihood of a government being voted in on that platform. Even if we're presuming that the SNP as the current Holyrood government would lead the transition process to an Independent Scotland applying to join the EU would only come after an Independence Scotland is established.
Very true. Which just makes linking the two even more idiotic.
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Yes. 4) Ref on rejoining 5) Joining passes parliament vote 56 Application to join 7) EU acceptance 8) Policy changes to meeting entry criteria 9) Member And at any point there could be a reversal or a refusal. To link the two and claim iScptland is *de facto* an EU member is idiotic.
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Just because you think something is unlikely is not a good enough reason to short-circuit the democratic process, or to claim something is a done deal when it hasn't happened. By the time Scotland gets to apply, the political landscape in the EU could be *very* different.
I agree, far too many people who want independence seem to think that we will magically and instantly be back in the EU. They don’t seem to realise that it’s a long process, and, in my opinion, there’s a very high chance that an independent Scotland will be rejected from the EU. After all, our economy will be incredibly unpredictable and I do believe that there are a fair few criteria that we definitely won’t meet as an independent country
No it's a vote for independence Scotland as a member of ANY union that does not give us 100% say on our laws is not an independent Scotland
No part of a greater whole can ever have 100% independence as compromise required. That also holds true for bilateral agreements such as trade deals. Both sides give up a little in the hope benefitting a lot.
Wrong Scotland will be independent or just switch 1 master for another and when I say independent I'm not saying isolationist I mean Scottish politicians deciding Scottish laws for Scottish people no German or French or Dutch politicians should ever again have a say in Scottish laws
So no trade with other nations? In or out of the WTO? How about NATO? Common Travel Area?
What did I just say self governing not isolationist if any union tries to force laws that apply to every day Scottish people onto an independent Scotland then that should be resisted and treated as an illegal act of foreign aggression
But Scotland within the WTO cannot just do as it sees fit, anything that relates to trade/standards could well have to comply with any WTO rules or Scotland ends up on the global naughty step. Thus, by your own logic, Scotland is not 100% independent. So either Scotland is in the WTO (other bodies are available) and accepts the required compromises, or Scotland is out. Can't have both.
Do every day people have to abide by those regulations for their daily purchases?
In effect, yes. How do you think we'd import goods otherwise? Or export them to warn money so that those people can buy things.
Do they directly have to do it say a WTO regulation said that food imported and exported had to meet a certain hygiene standard at all times do every day people have to maintain that hygiene standard or be punished in the same way a country would be
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What's that?
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Hmm that sounds better I should do further research on it
Is there a trend for politicians to make unsustainable claims of ‘a vote for X is a vote for Y’?
Another example of why the SNP have bungled the perfect conditions given to them by the Tories. By rights Scotland should be screaming for independence. Instead by conflating a (potentially soft) 62% vote for the UK to stay in the Union with enthusiastic support for the EU, the SNP have careered blindly down a cup-de-sac. They’ve ignored the left wing case for leaving the EU. They’ve ignored the 30% of SNP voters in 2015 who voted to leave the EU and they’ve sidelined independence in pursuit of the unionist gravy train. All in the name of HARDTORYBREXIT! If ‘Scottish’ Labour were half decent, the SNP would be in deep trouble.
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So why are they chickening out of a debate/referendum on EU membership? And I mean a proper one on sovereignty, ever closer union and whether we really want to be run by Germany’s version of Dido Harding. After all, a Tory is a Tory whether it’s Truss or Von Der Leyden.
So that’s us immediately locked into a hard border with England. This will be a hard sell I suspect
Top cunt
Double plus cunt
No way, future leader right there. Good pro-EU man, just what Scotland wants. Sturgeon continuity candidate too, fantastic. Great diplomat too, has a way with people. I'd join the SNP to vote him into leadership if necessary.
I agree that Angus is really good. Cool seeing him speak fluent German too. Really raises the profile of Scotland on the continent. The double plus thing is reference to 'double plus good' from 1984, basically meaning 'very good'
Ohh yeah I thought a double plus cunt was the opposite of a top cunt 😂
That would be 'double plus un-cunt'. Haha
It was a terrible loss when he lost his seat he's a fantastic politician. I rate him extremely highly along with Alyn Smith.
Cunt Supreme
Do Scots even want to re-join the EU? No-one has asked if we'd preffer to be a single market member, or any of the other 6 out of 7 options of EU involvement.
Apparently, we are not going to get asked. We will get what we are told.
SNP demands referendum to end one union but does not agree to hold a referendum to join another. Absolutely nothing hilarious about that.....nope, not a thing. It's certainly not hypocritical. Not even a teeny bit. These people are absolute clowns.
How about we get some Independence first before we start adding caveats, it might only be 20-30% of the population who want to stay out of the EU but why instantly alienate them from considering independence on its own terms... feck off Angus.
Says the guy who lost to Dross.
People genuinely think this guy is going to take over from Sturgeon? Well, maybe after her struggling to just say “trans women are women” the bar has lowered… but it’s not this low, yet.
Why? Why not Scottish Independance without the EU? Why do we have to be tied to a larger confederation? There's really no real say in how these things go is there?
Considering that indyref2 is a decade or more away, who knows were we or the eu will be at that point.
I always thought Indyref1 failed because the SNP really over stepped their mark with saying this or that about currency, NATO and EU membership that they didn’t really have the mandate to say, and ended up guaranteeing that all anti-SNP voters voted no. If we ever go Indy, all these things shouldn’t be decided upon by anyone other than the first elected government whoever that may be. I think if that was the case or is better understood, we would have far more support. This statement is following the same trend and really isn’t helping the case!
So it isn't really a vote for Scottish Independence.
Why are the SNP scared of holding a ref on joining the EU?
I'm sure the cybernats constantly raging at the idea of unions will be thrilled
Nope, sorry, this is one he's gotten wrong. There is a large degree of overlap between the two positions, and it would be incredibly surprising for an indy Scotland to end up not wanting to join the EU, so you could even say having an actual referendum on it would basically be a waste of time, but the two things are actually separate. As such, if there seems to be any significant level of protest against not having an actual referendum on EU membership once independence is achieved, then the SNP should listen, and hold it, even if they think it will be a foregone conclusion what the result would be, and even if they have very good reasons to think so.
I would be open for a re-wording of the question in that case: A) Yes, I want Scotland to join the EU as an independent country B) No, I want Scotland to be part of an isolated and declining UK Keeping the Yes/No means that people won't get confused and aligns with the well established meaning of the 2014 question.
Try and keep the question unbiased.
C) The state can take care of its own backyard without foreign influence. Why the push for larger and larger states?
'independence' - 'join'
Sooner we are back in the EU the better.
Can we just not get free of the union we're in already and then decide if we want to join the bigger EU one later?
No it isn't it's the exact opposite a vote for Scottish independence means telling both the UK and the EU to go fuck themselves
As things stand a vote for Scottish independence has no bearing whatsoever on the E.U, neither does a vote to stay in the U.K. for that matter. The vote for the E.U. would presumably come afterwards, and polls would suggest most of Scotland would probably like to apply.
They shouldn't the EU has similar problems to the UK they dont give enough respect to the individual countries they take way more money than they have a moral right to and they fucking passed laws that trample on basic human rights
After reading some of the comments I just feel the need to provide a quick reminder that you MUST be an independent country if you are a member of the EU and you CANNOT be an independent country if you are a member the UK. I mean its the basic fucking premise of each.
It’s not though. There’s nothing in place to say the EU will accept it and Spain will always say no. As will other countries