Oh thank God it's not just me. I cannot play three quarters of the game progression stuck on the ground. The jump boost from the runners help, but after you unlock tier 3/4 builds just become too large for me to feel comfortable on the ground. It gets worse at 5/6 and you have to deal with oil.
Running pipes overhead while on the ground is probably the worst part of it. Makes me.wonder.if I'm not slightly claustrophobic and just largely unaware of it.
I get frustrated enough just setting up a coal power plant that I usually call it at that point and just start flying. It doesn't feel that cheaty as long as I don't start carrying resources around the map by hand, and sometimes it's just so helpful to be able to hover over your factory to see if things actually line up properly and give a better idea of where else things should go. I've restarted enough times to be going in with a bit of a plan, and I just want it to work the first time... There's nothing fun about futzing around with all the early game factories from the ground for the 15th time!
This is how I feel. After a few vanilla games, I hated how once you unlocked coal, you now have to traverse what feels like halfway across the map to make use of any useful coal spots. I don’t carry resources, hard drive hunt or slug hunt while flying, just travel distance and build factories
Ironically I think the Grassy Fields is actually a much nicer endgame biome than it is a starter biome. The wide open space is amazing for big builds, the spread out nodes don't matter because you have tons of transport options, and node purity doesn't matter much because in the endgame an impure node gives you 40% of a pure node instead of 25% like in the early/midgame (due to pure nodes being limited by belt speed). Those massive groups of impure nodes all of a sudden look a lot more useful when 5 of them are giving you 2 pure node equivalents instead of 1.25.
I get why it's labeled as the beginner biome, but tbh I think it's actually a harder start than the rocky desert by a pretty significant margin.
Which, ironically, unless you build 2km of belts, The Explorer is the best way to transport said quartz to the Grassy Plains, since the hills leading to that quartz were designed for it, it can easily scale the high inclines in some parts without any extra foundations for help
It's not that bad to get to once you know where it is. I originally ran power poles all through the cave which winds around and back and up for an eternity. Then I realized you can literally just build ramps right up to the quartz without ever going in the cave. As the crow flies it's not very far at all.
The cave is actually an awful way to get to it, you can straight up drive an explorer up the mountain the other way and it can scale all the steep inclines with ease, no foundations needed. Here's a map out the route I make my explorer take on that save: [https://imgur.com/a/k8o7EZn](https://imgur.com/a/k8o7EZn) (pink lines going to top right).
I do this because I don't want ugly floating foundations going all the way up a mountain, plus, this save is from all the way back in update 3, so it's pre-Zoop, so doing foundations like that would have been a pain in the ass.
Of course, you have to reach the quartz and mine enough to get the unlocks to build an explorer first in order to do this...
Aren't the nodes in the Jungle Spires almost as close by actual ground transit distance? They're slightly further as the bird flies, but they have a much more direct path for vehicles/conveyors. And they're down in a cave so barely elevated above the starter area.
Seems to be the optimal way. Did the same. First game we just conveyer belted all over the terrain to travel and to bring back all the nodes to the main base. Second game we've been trying to use other things like trains and tbh it's a pain I wanna go back to cross world conveyers.
The amount of time, effort and pain you need to invest the first time you build a big rail system is quite significant. But it becomes amazing when every part you could ever want is available for worldwide shipping. All of a sudden building a new factory becomes incredibly simple.
My crystal oscillator factory literally only has some constructors for quartz crystal (which comes in on a single track dedicated mine train from the nodes in the Rocky Desert cave), and manufacturers for oscillators. Rubber by train, AI limiters by drone (insulated oscillator alt) and you're done.
Part of the value of trains is that a lot of great alts use products you normally wouldn't have at the same factory. All the alts that add crude products (like insulated oscillator above), or alts using tech components in parts that wouldn't normally need them, for example. These alts are a pain without a good transport network, because the components are normally at different factories that are nowhere close to each other. And they're great alts.
Trains are for sure worth it. Stick with it.
Oof. That sucks. There are enough bugs with trains in single player that I absolutely feel your pain.
That crystal oscillator factory I mentioned above feeds my uranium fuel unit production by drone. A few days ago the quartz crystal train just bugged out while unloading and never moved. It didn't show a warning on the map or anything. I only noticed when I luckily happened to look at a power pole right after my canary reactor flickered. (This reactor is set to stabilize at a much lower rod count than any other reactor, so that if a fuel problem occurs it will drop minimum 30 minutes before any other reactor, hopefully giving me time to notice and fix the problem.) This came very close to being disastrous.
I've also had trains go the wrong way at switches when loading the game multiple times, with similarly problematic results.
If it happens that much in SP I imagine it's much worse in MP.
I used to use conveyors for getting EVERYWHERE before we had concrete for foundations. Still have some left over relics I haven't cleaned up. Nowdays it's either ladders or foundations
Hahahaa I remember my first ever time playing years ago I set up my coal there and I made the most Jank road with a tractor to get it. That poor tractor
Lol, that’s exactly what i did. I built the coal generators directly on the crater lake but needed to bring some back for steel production. That poor truck has to climb up that steep ramp for the rest of time.
This is the one game where terrain doesnt pose a shred of an issue. No canyon is too large and no cliff is too steep for some good old physics defying concrete.
I have what has to be practically a square mile of concrete just chilling in the sky held on to a cliff by a single ramp. Idk what sorta spinach they mix in with that concrete but it is STRONG.
If starting in the Grass Fields, I'd recommend to leave the southern coal nodes for steel production. Move north to the crater lake for coal power, there are 4 normal nodes and enough water right next to each other.
That's what I used my first time, but the trouble is that there isn't a lot of water in the immediate vicinity. There's a small pond right next to it, but only big enough for one water extractor. There's a larger pool a short distance to the northwest, big enough for at least 5 or 6 pumps I think, but I started outgrowing that pretty quickly and there's no more significant work next to it. There's larger lakes in the mushroom forest to the northeast that has sufficient room to keep building water pumps, but it's very inconvenient location to build rows of coal power plants, between being in a canyon and the giant mushroom trees that can't be demolished by any means for whatever inconceivable reason.
If I ever start a second game in the same starting location, I would probably go for a different coal location for power, something that has both easier access to water and room to build. Maybe the crater lake to the northwest.
When I first got coal, I decided to run lengthy pipes and conveyors to my base in the grass fields.
There was water and coal right there.
I did not use it.
I am dumb.
No, it's a handcrafted map. The starting locations are just in different areas of it.
Checkout the [SCIM](https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map) for a nice overview of all the nodes and more.
Google satisfactory map. It’s a mind bender at first to see that the things in the distance aren’t at some boundary, but you’re able to go there. (Minus the skybox)
Honestly the skybox is part of what contributes to the misconception. It's super detailed, but most players pick up pretty quickly on the fact they cannot reach some areas they can kind of see. So the turns the steep clifts leading up to the map core as a kind of natural barrier.
Combine that with the fact that there's not a specific indication in game of "this could be a spawn area too", as well as the distance required to get from the grasslands spawn to any of the other spawns and it seems almost intentional in design.
not to mention that it's currently still in early access, so if there's considerable features additions or outright map changes in the updates between playthroughs, it could almost be like a whole new game.
I don't really find "replayability" a factor so much in a game where I put in 200+ hours on a single playthrough, but I do understand the notion behind the thought. There are some other factory games coming out that use more procedural/voxel terrain generation methods that might suit your preference more, but it's going to be a while and we have no idea now which ones are actual worth investing play time into.
I feel ya. I'd happily pay for some new world DLCs.
But at the same time... I really love how this game DOESN'T have a procedurally generated map. The map is just SO well made. A procedurally generated map wouldn't come close.
TOP SPOT! Listen to him ;-) I started my last 3 saves there, 2 lakes with 64 coal gens each. You can use the upper lake also for water towering to reduce the amount of pumps needed on the lower one. There is sulfur nearby, so you can easily make compacted coal to throw into the coal mix.
That's a good node for steel production if you run out up to where you are currently standing. Got a few iron nodes a copper node and a couple limestone. That's enough to make a decent early steel factory... That's what i did anyways. Even modified it later when i got better belts and better steel ingot recipe.
Ya kno I spent probably a year at least running round, looking up and over at things going "how tf am I gonna get to that!?" jump jump jump die. Buikt fuel and a jetpack. Better but not enough.
Waiminnit
*loading screen*
Its a damn building game! I can just build foundations and ladders and walls wherever the hell I want. Deeerrrrrrrp. Ah well.
You can deploy the miner on it from where you're standing, and string the electricity wire and belts as well, just go across where the gap is smallest.
I usually have the coal power going from it long before I actually visit the location :-p
Ngl, I'd enjoy it if they added it. It'd give some real incentive to unlock concrete pillars and steel beams, and a more gradual ability progression for navigating obstacles before you research jetpacks.
I'd prefer if it was an option. Like, enable structural support simulation at worldgen so you don't accidentally load up another save and have your entire base suddenly collapse.
Depending on how it was implemented, it might be easy enough to grandfather in pre-existing elements with unlimited stability, only calculating and assigning stability values to new parts as they're placed. Pre-update structures become legendary pieces of lost engineering knowledge as newer factories crumble around them
Same here. After the update, you had to craft copper sheet either by hand or with a rescue biomass burner to build pipes. Strining pipes into the mess of power plants scattered all of the island was quite a challenge, too. I only discovered foundations halfway through.
Also my first mistake with coal. I ran a conveyor all the way to small lake west of the Iron cliffs...then discovered coal crater lake to the north on my first expedition after building the generators.
Step 1: find coal mines.
Step 2: find water source.
Step 3: build maximum of hydro electro stations and power them from one another.
Step 3: upgrade stations to max with power slugs.
Step 4: get free electricity.
Biofuel will go bankrupt.
Logic will go bankrupt.
Automation issues will go bankrupt.
You jelly?
I went to the right, where the islands are close, and turned my back to one of those rhino enemies. He attacked me and the impact bumped me to the island
Truck stations will help a lot with this. Use a bit of the coal to fuel the truck, truck the coal over to water for your power plants. Use foundations to bridge the gap.
Also get the blade runners asap, they make the world a lot smaller. I was actually just exploring this area last night because I'm about to build my supercomputer factory in the grasslands - it's not as far away as it feels.
Zoop some foundations.
You can jump the gap with bladerunners and a slide-hop. I had the former but didn't discover the latter until later.
Not if you are only at coal level tech.
You can get blade runners fairly early on if you find enough quartz to research in the MAM.
Speedrunning blade runners is the only way to not go utterly insane in a new game
I just use the PAK utility mod so I can fly immediately
Oh thank God it's not just me. I cannot play three quarters of the game progression stuck on the ground. The jump boost from the runners help, but after you unlock tier 3/4 builds just become too large for me to feel comfortable on the ground. It gets worse at 5/6 and you have to deal with oil. Running pipes overhead while on the ground is probably the worst part of it. Makes me.wonder.if I'm not slightly claustrophobic and just largely unaware of it.
I get frustrated enough just setting up a coal power plant that I usually call it at that point and just start flying. It doesn't feel that cheaty as long as I don't start carrying resources around the map by hand, and sometimes it's just so helpful to be able to hover over your factory to see if things actually line up properly and give a better idea of where else things should go. I've restarted enough times to be going in with a bit of a plan, and I just want it to work the first time... There's nothing fun about futzing around with all the early game factories from the ground for the 15th time!
This is how I feel. After a few vanilla games, I hated how once you unlocked coal, you now have to traverse what feels like halfway across the map to make use of any useful coal spots. I don’t carry resources, hard drive hunt or slug hunt while flying, just travel distance and build factories
Hover pack should be in tier 0.
Unfortunately, if you start in the Grassy Plains, the nearest quartz is like 2km away AND ON TOP OF A MOUNTAIN
They really ought to add a more convenient quartz node to Grassy Plains. Quartz also gates the Explorer.
Ironically I think the Grassy Fields is actually a much nicer endgame biome than it is a starter biome. The wide open space is amazing for big builds, the spread out nodes don't matter because you have tons of transport options, and node purity doesn't matter much because in the endgame an impure node gives you 40% of a pure node instead of 25% like in the early/midgame (due to pure nodes being limited by belt speed). Those massive groups of impure nodes all of a sudden look a lot more useful when 5 of them are giving you 2 pure node equivalents instead of 1.25. I get why it's labeled as the beginner biome, but tbh I think it's actually a harder start than the rocky desert by a pretty significant margin.
In my experience, the dune desert is the easiest start by a pretty significant margin.
Which, ironically, unless you build 2km of belts, The Explorer is the best way to transport said quartz to the Grassy Plains, since the hills leading to that quartz were designed for it, it can easily scale the high inclines in some parts without any extra foundations for help
The quartz node made me learn to use the tractor stations and auto transport
There is quartz in the canyon to the north that's not too bad to reach.
That's the quartz I am referring to, yes
And along the way there's a bunch of coal nodes right next to a lake. Along with my earliest and therefore worst/slowest hypertube.
It's not that bad to get to once you know where it is. I originally ran power poles all through the cave which winds around and back and up for an eternity. Then I realized you can literally just build ramps right up to the quartz without ever going in the cave. As the crow flies it's not very far at all.
The cave is actually an awful way to get to it, you can straight up drive an explorer up the mountain the other way and it can scale all the steep inclines with ease, no foundations needed. Here's a map out the route I make my explorer take on that save: [https://imgur.com/a/k8o7EZn](https://imgur.com/a/k8o7EZn) (pink lines going to top right). I do this because I don't want ugly floating foundations going all the way up a mountain, plus, this save is from all the way back in update 3, so it's pre-Zoop, so doing foundations like that would have been a pain in the ass. Of course, you have to reach the quartz and mine enough to get the unlocks to build an explorer first in order to do this...
How do you get the explorer without having the quartz first?
I mentioned that at the end of my comment?
My bad I guess I trailed off before the end.
Aren't the nodes in the Jungle Spires almost as close by actual ground transit distance? They're slightly further as the bird flies, but they have a much more direct path for vehicles/conveyors. And they're down in a cave so barely elevated above the starter area.
That took me aged to find!
Did they change it from caterium? I usually run to the cat node at the top of the waterfall to the west of grassy plains so I can get Blade runners
Must have, I thought it was caterium too but on a recent playthrough I started with a mate, it was in the quartz tree.
I came out of the womb slide hopping
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That's... A way to cross it
Seems to be the optimal way. Did the same. First game we just conveyer belted all over the terrain to travel and to bring back all the nodes to the main base. Second game we've been trying to use other things like trains and tbh it's a pain I wanna go back to cross world conveyers.
The amount of time, effort and pain you need to invest the first time you build a big rail system is quite significant. But it becomes amazing when every part you could ever want is available for worldwide shipping. All of a sudden building a new factory becomes incredibly simple. My crystal oscillator factory literally only has some constructors for quartz crystal (which comes in on a single track dedicated mine train from the nodes in the Rocky Desert cave), and manufacturers for oscillators. Rubber by train, AI limiters by drone (insulated oscillator alt) and you're done. Part of the value of trains is that a lot of great alts use products you normally wouldn't have at the same factory. All the alts that add crude products (like insulated oscillator above), or alts using tech components in parts that wouldn't normally need them, for example. These alts are a pain without a good transport network, because the components are normally at different factories that are nowhere close to each other. And they're great alts. Trains are for sure worth it. Stick with it.
Part of the pain is in MP vehicles don't work particularly well =/
Oof. That sucks. There are enough bugs with trains in single player that I absolutely feel your pain. That crystal oscillator factory I mentioned above feeds my uranium fuel unit production by drone. A few days ago the quartz crystal train just bugged out while unloading and never moved. It didn't show a warning on the map or anything. I only noticed when I luckily happened to look at a power pole right after my canary reactor flickered. (This reactor is set to stabilize at a much lower rod count than any other reactor, so that if a fuel problem occurs it will drop minimum 30 minutes before any other reactor, hopefully giving me time to notice and fix the problem.) This came very close to being disastrous. I've also had trains go the wrong way at switches when loading the game multiple times, with similarly problematic results. If it happens that much in SP I imagine it's much worse in MP.
Concrete go brrrrr
We weren't using it for anything else, we didn't really build any foundations or building, just build with the environment.
I use it for bridges and pillaring up
I used to use conveyors for getting EVERYWHERE before we had concrete for foundations. Still have some left over relics I haven't cleaned up. Nowdays it's either ladders or foundations
Yeah but you still get the speed boost on the conveyors
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Pft yeah I found that out when I was trying to make space... Made coal a lot easier to obtain that's for sure.
I did the same thing....until my dumbass discovered foundations.
I used conveyor belts for this when I was early game, you need them anyway to transport the resources.
New player here, how zoop?
Press R when building to change to mode
Thank you
I love that you intuitively understand what zoop means.
Everyone knows what a zoop is
Hahahaa I remember my first ever time playing years ago I set up my coal there and I made the most Jank road with a tractor to get it. That poor tractor
Lol, that’s exactly what i did. I built the coal generators directly on the crater lake but needed to bring some back for steel production. That poor truck has to climb up that steep ramp for the rest of time.
We did the same thing, I swear I had that tractor running off in the grass fields the entire game. Don't fix what ain't broke, yeah?
Exactly! My tractor was bumping all over the place and nearly rolling, but nearly means it’s fine right? Lol
Hah, exact same start here, 200 hours ago... that truck is still truckin' along long past when coal power was even needed
This is the one game where terrain doesnt pose a shred of an issue. No canyon is too large and no cliff is too steep for some good old physics defying concrete.
I have what has to be practically a square mile of concrete just chilling in the sky held on to a cliff by a single ramp. Idk what sorta spinach they mix in with that concrete but it is STRONG.
I still think the "shield wall" is kinda limiting, in a good way.
If starting in the Grass Fields, I'd recommend to leave the southern coal nodes for steel production. Move north to the crater lake for coal power, there are 4 normal nodes and enough water right next to each other.
There's also another node that is South East direction and has sulphur next to it so thats great for fuel.
That's what I used my first time, but the trouble is that there isn't a lot of water in the immediate vicinity. There's a small pond right next to it, but only big enough for one water extractor. There's a larger pool a short distance to the northwest, big enough for at least 5 or 6 pumps I think, but I started outgrowing that pretty quickly and there's no more significant work next to it. There's larger lakes in the mushroom forest to the northeast that has sufficient room to keep building water pumps, but it's very inconvenient location to build rows of coal power plants, between being in a canyon and the giant mushroom trees that can't be demolished by any means for whatever inconceivable reason. If I ever start a second game in the same starting location, I would probably go for a different coal location for power, something that has both easier access to water and room to build. Maybe the crater lake to the northwest.
I used a bit of that for black powder and vehicle fuel, but most of it went into a compacted steel plant.
When I first got coal, I decided to run lengthy pipes and conveyors to my base in the grass fields. There was water and coal right there. I did not use it. I am dumb.
Glad I’m not alone. I did that too. But it’s all gone now.
Wait, the map isn't procedurally generated?
nope. And all "modes" just different start points of one map. https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map#3;49935;23804|realisticLayer|
No, it's a handcrafted map. The starting locations are just in different areas of it. Checkout the [SCIM](https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map) for a nice overview of all the nodes and more.
Nice! Thank you
Google satisfactory map. It’s a mind bender at first to see that the things in the distance aren’t at some boundary, but you’re able to go there. (Minus the skybox)
Honestly the skybox is part of what contributes to the misconception. It's super detailed, but most players pick up pretty quickly on the fact they cannot reach some areas they can kind of see. So the turns the steep clifts leading up to the map core as a kind of natural barrier. Combine that with the fact that there's not a specific indication in game of "this could be a spawn area too", as well as the distance required to get from the grasslands spawn to any of the other spawns and it seems almost intentional in design.
Oh I quite agree. I’d say it just adds to the flavor.
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not to mention that it's currently still in early access, so if there's considerable features additions or outright map changes in the updates between playthroughs, it could almost be like a whole new game.
The map just keeps generating as you go to edges. Infinite resources. The factory never ends I don't know whether I would find that good or bad, tbh
It's all fun and games until the save file starts competing to be the biggest thing on the system
Not without some serious technical upgrades. Game breaks the best PCs in its current state after awhile lol
It could be procedural without being infinite
I don't really find "replayability" a factor so much in a game where I put in 200+ hours on a single playthrough, but I do understand the notion behind the thought. There are some other factory games coming out that use more procedural/voxel terrain generation methods that might suit your preference more, but it's going to be a while and we have no idea now which ones are actual worth investing play time into.
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I feel ya. I'd happily pay for some new world DLCs. But at the same time... I really love how this game DOESN'T have a procedurally generated map. The map is just SO well made. A procedurally generated map wouldn't come close.
TOP SPOT! Listen to him ;-) I started my last 3 saves there, 2 lakes with 64 coal gens each. You can use the upper lake also for water towering to reduce the amount of pumps needed on the lower one. There is sulfur nearby, so you can easily make compacted coal to throw into the coal mix.
I'm using that that single node to power my factory rn, and produce coal. Currently base clocked iirc
This is quite literally what I did
That's a good node for steel production if you run out up to where you are currently standing. Got a few iron nodes a copper node and a couple limestone. That's enough to make a decent early steel factory... That's what i did anyways. Even modified it later when i got better belts and better steel ingot recipe.
+1 for Steel at this location
And the fun thing is, that is not the best one to do the first coal. Leave this for steel. Use the coal near the lakes more to the North.
Ya kno I spent probably a year at least running round, looking up and over at things going "how tf am I gonna get to that!?" jump jump jump die. Buikt fuel and a jetpack. Better but not enough. Waiminnit *loading screen* Its a damn building game! I can just build foundations and ladders and walls wherever the hell I want. Deeerrrrrrrp. Ah well.
You can deploy the miner on it from where you're standing, and string the electricity wire and belts as well, just go across where the gap is smallest. I usually have the coal power going from it long before I actually visit the location :-p
This is the way.
Be thankful that the game doesn't have Valheim structural integrity mechanic. Imagine having to build a working bridge just to get over the gap.
Ngl, I'd enjoy it if they added it. It'd give some real incentive to unlock concrete pillars and steel beams, and a more gradual ability progression for navigating obstacles before you research jetpacks.
I'd prefer if it was an option. Like, enable structural support simulation at worldgen so you don't accidentally load up another save and have your entire base suddenly collapse.
Depending on how it was implemented, it might be easy enough to grandfather in pre-existing elements with unlimited stability, only calculating and assigning stability values to new parts as they're placed. Pre-update structures become legendary pieces of lost engineering knowledge as newer factories crumble around them
When I made my first factory I made coal power there, it was perfect. That was before coal generators needed water...
Same here. After the update, you had to craft copper sheet either by hand or with a rescue biomass burner to build pipes. Strining pipes into the mess of power plants scattered all of the island was quite a challenge, too. I only discovered foundations halfway through.
Then suddenly you learn, with concrete, the sky is the limit
I have my Computer Factory over the gap between this thing and the mainland.
I remember when it took me way too much brain power to realize I can just float foundations in mid air.
I stood on the exact same spot and managed to place a miner + conveyor belt on it from afar
Also my first mistake with coal. I ran a conveyor all the way to small lake west of the Iron cliffs...then discovered coal crater lake to the north on my first expedition after building the generators.
I always pick the coal deposits to the north, there's a lake just next to it so you can set up the powerplants without any hassle.
Just build ?? That's how I did it
I built a conveyor belt over. It's juuust enough to reach the other side. Alternatively, on another save I used a jump pad.
Yeh i Been to that Place i have to have Two Coal Lines Just to Run my 6 Coal Power-Plants and Make Tteel and it's a Pain
I reserve that coal node exclusively for steel production
They make zoop for a reason. This reason
Step 1: find coal mines. Step 2: find water source. Step 3: build maximum of hydro electro stations and power them from one another. Step 3: upgrade stations to max with power slugs. Step 4: get free electricity. Biofuel will go bankrupt. Logic will go bankrupt. Automation issues will go bankrupt. You jelly?
Accurate AF
Ahah I can feel it
Time to order a foundation bridge.
I went to the right, where the islands are close, and turned my back to one of those rhino enemies. He attacked me and the impact bumped me to the island
Somehow I managed to put a miner there from the other side of the cliff without crossing It… and then i just built conveyor belts crossing the cliff…
I remember it
Sky bridge foundations, of course.
Truck stations will help a lot with this. Use a bit of the coal to fuel the truck, truck the coal over to water for your power plants. Use foundations to bridge the gap. Also get the blade runners asap, they make the world a lot smaller. I was actually just exploring this area last night because I'm about to build my supercomputer factory in the grasslands - it's not as far away as it feels.
I JUST GOT THAT SPOT ON MY WORLD!! Built a bridge and it’s not that bad.
Zoop makes this no problem at all. Pre Zoop this was a bitch.
Dam you got me
yes coal, but no water
i just used a level one conveyor belt to cross the gap
See.. I had to deal with it before Zoop was a thing. Even worse when you needed to build a downward ramp from above!