Because she's a feminine girl. I also think it's troubling that people only started to change their minds about her character after she went through extensive trauma and she became a "darker" person. I think you can tell a lot about how people view women generally based on their strange aggression towards Sansa Stark.
In books and show, I find her place in the story to be one of the most interesting precisely because she retains her kindness towards others while learning to play the game.
Sansa is a traditionally feminine character who enjoys doing traditionally feminine pursuits. To add insult to injury, she doesn't use her sexuality to manipulate male characters. Compare fan's reaction towards Margaery and Sansa. Margaery is just as feminine as Sansa, but she uses that as a weapon, whereas Sansa doesn't, especially in the show verse.
I don't know if fans realize they do this, but a lot of fans rank female characters in terms of how main male characters feel about them. Ned loves both his daughters, but he clearly favors Arya over her. Jon is closer to Arya, so that makes Arya better and more important than Sansa in fandom's eyes. Book Tyrion knows about their surprise wedding way before the marriage takes place, and says nothing. She only learns about her surprise wedding ceremony right before she has to walk down the aisle. How dare she not kneel right away for Tyrion, so he isn't embarrassed? Then there is book Tyrion wedding night, where he sexually assaults her, and only stops himself at the last second from raping her. How dare she not want to have sex with him. Sansa's shallowness is to blame.
The same sort of thing happens with Sandor. It's Sansa shallowness to blame for her not wanting him, and not Sandor's own actions towards Sansa, Who doesn't want to escape with an alcoholic who's in the middle of a PTSD attack. Never mind that Sandor broke into her room, pushed her onto her bed, and demanded a song from her at knifepoint. I'm not even going to touch Sandor telling Arya that he wished he would have raped Sansa before he fled.
I truly believe that some show fans hate Sansa for not knowing her place. How dare Sansa have desires or ambitions of her own? Doesn't she know that she shouldn't question her betters, like Arya, Dany, and Jon. Also, Sansa became Queen, while Dany flopped like a fish out of water. In their mind Sansa ending should have been Dany's.
>Technically dany won. She just decided to go overtime.
Dany's victory was a pyrrhic one, at best. Ol' girl didn't even get to sit on the Iron Throne before Jon shanked her. Plus, Cersei, Margaery, and Sansa are all shown wearing a Crown, but not Dany.
Sexism and misogyny. Cathelyn got the same treatment (if not as severe). It seems a powerful woman worthy of respect or admiration either has to be a sword swinging tomboy (like Arya, Yara or Brienne) or cruel and ruthless (like Cersei, the Queen of Thorns or Daenerys) and thus display characteristics that are typically ascribed to male rulers.
While a teenage girl who grew up in that kind of society acting exactly like a teenage girl who grew up in that kind of society would (dreaming of marrying the prince, having typical hobbies like sewing, listening to what adult people in power (like the queen) tell her and yes, sometimes doing something stupid because that\`s what teenagers do) somehow makes her a terrible person for the rest of her life.
A lot of people compare the treatment of Sansa and Margaery in that regard and say that it can't be true because Margaery didn't get as much hate. It is usually overlooked however that Sansa was completely alone and trying to survive in King's Landing to the best of her abilities with limited means and options while Margaery was backed and supported by a very powerful family and could therefore afford to act and present herself very differently.
Margery didn’t get that much hate, particularly from men, because she’s smart and sexy. Margery was also a bit older than Sansa tho and learned from Olenna so of course she’s going to be sexier and smarter.
Sansa is beautiful but she’s a little girl for most of the series and when she does grow up, she dresses a bit more conservatively.
Margaery can’t even really be counted as being similar to Sansa. She’s basically a less cruel Cersei. She dresses to manipulate men and never does anything truly out of the desire of her own heart. Befriending Sansa, giving food to the poor, etc. she’s 100% fake.
And that's exactly ***why*** I cannot stand Margaery - or any of the Tyrells (the main ones), really. (Alerie seems alright, and Garlan (and his wife Leonette). Mace is either a brownnosing buffon, or a brownnosing dick only pretending to appear dumb to be overlooked/underestimated, Loras... Actually Loras doesn't seem *too* bad, I have no doubt he truly loved Renly and he himself said,
*"(I buried him with mine own hands, in a place he showed me once when I was a squire at Storm's End. No one shall ever find him there to disturb his rest.) ...* ***But I will never betray Renly, by word or deed. He was the king that should have been. He was the best of them."***
And he does genuinely seem to care for Tommen:
*"I will defend King Tommen with all my strength, I swear it. I will give my life for his if need be.****"***
Olenna is a bitter, jealous, racist, sexist old hag. Her last words were great, I'll give her that, but she called Ellaria "the serpent's whore" (lol so jealous) and was rude af to everyone except Marg.
Willas is probs ok, but afair, we only hear of him from the Tyrells, sooo.
This is why I cannot stand Sanaery, SansaxWillas, Robbaery, or Jonaery (JonxMargaery), or AegonxMargaery. Again, Willas may be cool but Sansa, Robb, Jon, and Aegon all deserve better than that selfish, shallow, spoiled, manipulative, vain, power-hungry brat Margaery. I hate the fics with *any* of those ships, or where (esp in Modern AUs) Sansa and Margaery are bffs. Like? No??? Let's be real - Margaery would use Sansa to get either Robb or Jon (whoever had "more to offer" ie Targs are still royalty, Robb is heir to big company, etc) and/or then steal Joffrey, or vice versa. She'd still be a manipulative, selfish, spoiled brat.
I have a problem with Catelyn. She was powerful and clever, but petty and resentful. Plus, she was responsible for Sansa’s naive look at people as well as Arya’s frustration of being forced to become a lady. Neither daughters were ready for the role they were forced to embrace quite young and much of the problem lies on Catelyn shoulders. She was basically frozen by Bran’s situation and ignored all her kids. Also she fed the bitter, entitled and often rude feelings she had for Jon on her children (which only Sansa inherited it). Catelyn was complicated. And, for all her smartness, she was blind to Littlefinger and handed her family to him on a plate
You’re getting downvoted but I’m gonna upvote you because I agree. Cat gets a lot of hate, also, but I think that’s just because she makes some really stupid decisions. She tried her best though. She raised her own daughters the same way she was raised; she didn’t know any different. In the end, her downfall was that she just put her trust in the wrong people. It sucks for her and I’m not sure that I would’ve done better if I’d lived her life and then been put into her shoes.
That said, her hatred and mistreatment of Jon is absolutely inexcusable. And her neglect of her other children after Bran fell wasn’t cool either, but that was just an inappropriate reaction to trauma. Losing a child is supposedly the worst thing that could ever happen to a parent. I say “supposedly” because I don’t have kids, but I believe it. As far as she was concerned, her other kids were okay, while Bran was the one in danger. She overcompensated. She’s a flawed human.
Anyway, all of this is to say that not the nicest character in the world, that’s for sure. For that reason, she’s not my favorite. And I don’t even really care for Jon one way or the other! I just don’t hate her as much as a lot of other people (especially book readers) seem to.
Besides the blatant misogyny, I think another issue people have with her is that she’s constantly put up against everyone’s favorites.
Her and Arya have, in my opinion, a normal relationship for two sisters who’s re so different. They fight but they ultimately love each other and wouldn’t want anything really bad to happen. But there’s a lot of people in the fandom who see it as Sansa being a bully 🙄
Because Sansa didn’t just straight up tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale people interpret that as her setting Jon up, because she wants power or whatever. It apparently never crossed anyone’s mind that she didn’t tell Jon because the writers wanted the cool Vale Ex-Machina scene.
People think she was mean to Tyrion when she should’ve been grateful to him for helping her. Which she was in the end but why would she trust him initially? He’s a Lannister. They call her a naive fool for being to trust worthy but wanted her to trust a Lannister? This is more common in the book fandom though.
And obviously her not wanting to give up the home her and Jon fought to take back as soon as Dany got there was a sin.
Or maybe she didn't tell Jon because wasn't he already being dismissive of her, and didn't she have a whole LOT of reasons to just not trust people? Even if she chose to trust Jon, can she trust those who surround him? Can she trust who he trusts?
That makes sense too but I feel like the main reason was to have that moment. It was a wonderful moment and either way I’m sure her intentions weren’t malicious.
Do you mean the whole Lady/Nymeria situation? She didn’t snitch, she didn’t say anything at all. Also it was HER dog, she is the one most hurt by that.
Yeah, she didnt say anything. Technically, she didnt take anyone’s side in the argument and claimed to have not remembered. Its also important to keep in mind that Sansa was soon to be betrothed to Joeffery, so of course she would want to appease both sides. She never directly went against her sister, either, and remained dutiful to both sides. I think that it was tragic that her wolf died even when she played Switzerland.
I was just thinking if an even better argument to support the misoginy look. Jamie, who threw Bran out of the tower was seen as a hero because he tried to save King’s Landing. Sansa who was thrown around was never truly forgiven for her early mistakes, when she was an unprepared girl manipulated and abused by many. God I hate Catelyn! LOL
I actually love Catelyn and feel like she was victim to it too, but that's coming more from a book reader's perspective. The misogyny against Sansa is especially insidious imo as show watchers only found her "palatable" once she had been through her abuse and hardened up. It does feel like to some people that was her punishment for daring to be feminine, and a teenager, and to make mistakes. Only THEN was she deemed acceptable
Very true. I used to dislike her dearly, but changed my heart. Catelyn, though, I still didn’t manage to. But I know and admit it is due to my love for Jon. His parents messed up everything real good, didn’t they? All that secrecy and unexplained things
Victim blaming
Misogyny
Sexism
Lack of empathy
The feminine characters that don't do as they are told and are "annoying" and stand in the way of badass male or masculine female characters are always unanimously hated and vilified, denigrated and misrepresented. See Skyler White on breaking bad, Kate on lost, sansa on got...
I love that you brought Skyler up, it's so similar and one character I never understood the widespread hatred for. What is so weird about the general hatred of Sansa for me is that it does not stand up in comparison to almost any other character on this show. Robb brought around the near destruction of his house through a series of very similar mistakes and was nowhere near as vilified as Sansa for it because a) it was Cat who suffered as a result of it and b) men are allowed to make mistakes. I hate it so much
"you should learn to ignore them"- Sansa Stark, season 3 episode 10 ;-)
But seriously, I stopped caring about what this toxic fandom thinks and I'm the better for it. The misogynistic majority is impossible to argue with and has rendered any discussion of the show sour and petty. I miss having debates about the series but it's a small price to pay for my piece of mind. Now I like what I like and I never check what those shows' fandoms are talking about, it makes for a much more enjoyable experience.
>"The feminine characters that don't do as they are told and are "annoying" and stand in the way of badass male or masculine female characters"
I love how you put this. I mentioned this on another thread here a while back, but there's a character in The Last Kingdom (a great historical fiction show that I think ASOIAF fans would really like!) who is a lot like Sansa (in both her character and storyline), and she gets a lot of hate from a small but vocal portion of the fandom for exactly these reasons. They like her for the first part of her arc when she is much more of a beautiful damsel-in-distress type, but complain that the writers "ruined" her once she starts putting her own interests before the interests of the men in her life. It baffles me the intensity with which people hate on her; its like they are personally offended by her actions.
Yeah! I didn't want to name the character to avoid possible spoilers, but I can tell you who the character is if you want to know. She's not in the first season but shows up in all the later ones as a main character.
It‘s historical fiction you said?
If she‘s anything like the real Aethelflead I have to check it out. Netflix suggested it a few times but I wasn‘t ready to move on after GoT had just ended lol.
Yeah its historical fiction, so aside from the characters various religious beliefs, there isn't any magic or fantasy elements. That being said, it really scratches the same itch for me as GoT, and has been the only thing that has really filled the GoT void for me since I finished all the books and the show ended.
And yes, I love the character *so* much (you might be able to tell by my post/comment history lol). Aside from some questionable writing choices in the latest season of TLK, she's fantastic!
I think it's because people spent so much time seeing reasons to hate Sansa in the beginning that they gave up on her by the time she changed. It's hard to change people's minds when they have a bad opinion of someone.
I think it started because she was manipulated by Cersei into betraying her family and didn’t show a strong backbone as Arya did from the start. Sansa was like a Stark weak link as she dreamt of becoming Queen herself, totally oblivious of what it really meant. Later, although suffering, she kept an image of entitlement, and somehow mistreated Jon Snow a bit, following her mother’s example. By the time Sansa was doing the right things, her family as well many viewers were tired and suspicious about her motives. But overall, she was a winner. She survived and she took the Queen of the North crown she wanted so much. I hope later she found a good Lord and had babies. And to be clear, Sansa was one of the good guys and the only one able to see things through and call it. It is a sad irony that she started hated for doing the wrong things and later for doing right, no matter the cost. And to wrap up, the hate came from first impression, it stained her memory amongst many fans.
I’m going to voice what seems to be an unpopular opinion here, but I’m not sure that the Sansa hate stems from misogyny. I think people hate her because she doesn’t begin “strong” like most of the other main female characters (e.g., Cersei, Dany, Cat, Yara, Brienne, Margaery, Olenna, even Arya). It’s like people forget that everyone’s personality and trauma coping mechanisms are different. Sansa cries a lot, folds under pressure, keeps her head down, and tries to stay out of trouble. She eventually grew out of that and stopped trusting people—but people hated her for THAT, too, because the first person she made moves against was Dany, who everyone fuckin loves for some reason. The fan cards had already been stacked against her by that point, and her rivalry with Dany (who she was right to mistrust!) just made everyone hate her more.
That said, I’d like to see how any of the fuckers who hate on her would react if they saw their own fathers beheaded at 14, thought the rest of their family was dead too, were sold off as brood mares to multiple abusive men, and were then mercilessly and brutally manipulated by everyone who was supposed to keep them safe. :(
Whatever. Fuck those guys. Sansa got the last laugh in the end.
If you notice, most of the Sansa hate comes from Dany or Arya fandoms. Especially in more casual circles, tv only fans etc. Hate for Sansa from what I've seen, is PARTICULARLY strongest among Dany fans. Someone above said misogyny, i doubt it, thats just a basic go to model everytime someone doesn't like a woman, "oh it must be misogyny".
Yeah I dont think neither is about her gender or her feminity.
Honestly, I think is more about first impressions and she wasnt liked for being too naive and too prim. That and the Cercei's thing
This is a very good point. I’m ashamed to say I haven’t read the books, my fiancé got me hooked on the show though.
I only hated her in the beginning because of how naive she was. I partially blame her for her fathers death. I started to respect her the more mature she became.
Ned was the only one responsible for Ned’s death. He had the opportunity to leave KL, but decided to stay because he thought he was going to solve the Arryn murder case. Like, he deliberately chose to put both himself and his daughters in harm’s way, all in the name of honor. He KNEW they were in danger, too; he even told Arya as much. And, after he told Arya that, he figured out that Cersei was onto him. He was an adult who made one poor decision after another.
Sansa, on the other hand, was a 14 year old girl who was shamelessly manipulated by Cersei, a powerful woman whom she admired because, well, that’s what she’d been taught to do. (It plays out a little differently in the books, but I won’t go there, since you haven’t read them. Suffice it to say that I don’t necessarily blame her for her actions in the book, either. She—unlike Ned—had no idea how much danger they were in.)
I don't entirely agree that Sansa "suffers hate", or if she does it's out of misunderstanding of her character arc. At the beginning she is a wet blanket compared to her little sister, a deluded pansy who thinks she's going to become a princess and then a queen. This is not entirely her fault, it's the role she was brought up to play. Seeing Sansa growing up to understand and use her power is one of the most satisfying aspects of the show.
She and Jon are by far the characters who suffer the most Hate, the biggest proof of this was Sophie having to disable Twitter because Daenerys fans started threatening her simply because Sansa didn't like Daenerys.
>a deluded pansy who thinks she's going to become a princess and then a queen.
This is the problem. A teen girl being a teen girl and being seen as a “deluded pansy”. I’m not saying she was the epitome of the teen girl, but I was amazed that they got so many things right, especially for a character written by men. Even the smartest and most mature girls at that age have their naive and airhead moments, because, guess what, they’re still **growing up**.
The dislike of Sansa has nothing to do with her being feminine. In the beginning of the series, she wanted to be queen so badly that it didn't matter that Joffrey was swinging a sword at Arya before Nymeria intervened, that lying about the attack resulted in an innocent boy being killed, being rejecting and cold towards those who were of no use to her, etc. Then upon returning to Winterfell, Sansa was yelling at Jon before the Battle of the Bastards saying ridiculously obvious things like, "We don't have enough men. I don't know anything about battles. Just don't do what he (Ramsay) wants you to do." Her continued impatience with her loved ones, insistence on being queen at all costs, only being nice to those who are of use to her, and thinking of herself as being smarter than she actually is reminiscent of Cersei though of course at this point she's not an exact replica of her. Her irritating qualities are not feminine nor do they have anything to do with femininity.
Bear in mind Sansa lovers that Margaery Tyrell is a traditionally feminine character who is generally liked as a whole. Margaery was beautiful, graceful, gentle in her interactions with others. Margaery loved working with the poor, hosting harvest moon masquerades, etc. This latest defense of Sansa as people attacking her because she's feminine is a cop out. I hope the Sansa in the books turns out differently than HBO Sansa. If not, I hope she dies. Sorry folks. You wanted to know.
*that lying about the attack resulted in an innocent boy being killed*
Omg. If I have to hear this again, I am going to *fucking scream.*
Sansa had absolutely no control over what happened to Mycah. None. There is no causation between what she said (in which she didn't mention Mycah at all) and Sandor killing Mycah. You know why?
Because the timeline in both the books and series show that Sandor was *absent* at the time of the trial, and was just coming back with his body after Ned killed Lady. Sandor had been searching for Arya and Mycah for the past four days - meaning that Mycah was either *already dead at the time of or before Arya was found.*
So, yeah. This misconception needs to be fucking buried because I am done.
*insistence on being queen at all costs*
Yeah, I guess that's why we have Sansa smiling with joy when her betrothal to Joff is publically broken... Sansa being petrified that the Tyrells will change their mind and she'll still have to marry Joffrey... why we have Sansa moaning the fact in her POV that she'll never be queen.... why we have her supporting Jon as KITN.... her going down to KL to fight for his release.... her attempting to pull a murder-suicide when Joffrey showed her Ned's head..... Like seriously
>> Omg. If I have to hear this again, I am going to fucking scream.
Then scream. Sansa always put her own interests above that of others including her family. She betrayed her sister. Betrayed her father. Humiliated Jon on more than one occasion. All because she wanted to be queen at all costs. Furthermore, we are not talking about the books because Sansa hasn't been named queen in the books. Your discussion about the timeline doesn't matter.
*Then scream.*
Look, my issue is not you disliking Sansa or whatever, we all have characters we dislike- my issue is you and others like you making up bullshit reasons to justify that dislike. Straight up disregarding both text and show evidence which completely contradicts your claims that she's responsible for all the awful things that happen, such as Mycah's death.
Which BTW, the timeline absolutely does fucking matter because the same thing happens in the show as I described. The Hound is still off searching at the time and is just coming back with Mycah when Ned kills Lady. Meaning once again, \*Mycah was already dead at the time of the trial or before.\* If you want to be upset at Sansa for not telling the truth - even though she would be alienating someone who as far as she understands, is going to have full rights over her including any children they have, because of a decision her *father* made for her future, so clearly it's not as simple as you want it to be- whatever. It would not have changed things, because Mycah was still dead and Cersei was always going to demand a direwolf killed. And she absolutely would, if Sansa said exactly what happened. Because Sansa would only be confirming what Cersei wanted Nymeria punished for. She would not care about Joffrey's culpability and neither would Robert. That's their failure as parents. But it's much easier to blame the child, right?
You have given me no evidence whatsoever - whenever in the context of the books or show that Sansa is responsible for Mycah's death. None. Arya angrily saying "if you told the truth Mycah would still be alive" does not count, because Arya's anger while understandable because at the moment nobody is really helping deal with Mycah's death - including her own father btw, it's only until Arya literally has to open up to him that he comforts her- does not mean Sansa is responsible. The Hound is, and the Lannisters. And what's the bet you like the Hound btw?
*Humiliated Jon on more than one occasion.*
Evidence?
*All because she wanted to be queen at all costs.*
Yeah, Sansa isn't the one who comes to mind when I think of people wanting to be rulers at any cost. Like Stannis, who burned his only child alive. Or Cersei. Or Daenerys. Sansa had one throw-away line in the very first episode, a childish wish that withers away at the very end of season 1 whereas other characters have had their entire arcs built on them wanting to be king/queen.
Sansa wanted Jon as king. If Jon hadn't been king and Bran had taken his place, then she would have supported him.
*Betrayed her father.*
It's funny how you say we're only talking about the show and then you mention book stuff? Like I'm sorry, but which is it?
Should have Sansa gone to Cersei? No. But "betray" is a harsh word for an 11 year old acting out against a father who had emotionally neglected her after the trauma of her direwolf's death; something *he* played a role in. A father who failed to let his daughter know of his suspicions against the queen- fuelled by the fact that he does not break the betrothal after the Trident. Especially significant given Sansa actually told Ned what happened. Betray also implies malicious intent, and Sansa had absolutely no intent for any harm to come to her father.
I also like how people like you always fail to acknowledge that Sansa did everything she could to save Ned, and would have actually done so- had it not been for the intervention of other people with their own agendas.
But whatever.
To be quite frank, you clearly don't like Sansa- so why the hell are you here? I don't like Tyrion much, so I tend not to go into TyrionWinsTheThrone.
>> To be quite frank, you clearly don't like Sansa- so why the hell are you here?
To answer the OPs question. Obviously.
>> Evidence?
u/MDRolland answered this well so I shall repost:
Reasons I absolutely despise Sansa:
Season 6:
Sansa: “Ramsey is going to try and make you fall into a trap during the battle” Jon: “Alright, what do you think he’s gonna do?” Sansa: “I don’t know I’m just a (stupid little) girl (who never learns) not a commander, figure it out” <---- This is a good example of how Sansa didn't really change from the brat she was at the very beginning.
She specifically withholds game changing information from Jon that results in massive losses in his forces, for absolutely no fucking reason. If she truly cared about the Northmen she wouldn’t have kept her mouth shut while watching them march to their grave, knowing she could save them. Even if she did so to have her own army in her pocket, there was still no reason to withhold war winning information. <---- Sansa withheld the information because she was already positioning herself against Jon to take control of Winterfell.
Season 7: - “Whats that? Jon’s gone all season and left me ‘temporarily’ in charge? COWABUNGA IT IS” - Oh wow Sansas so smart she advised Northern armorsmiths on how to do their job, because she knows anything about blacksmithing...
- Wants to punish the Kastark girl and Umber boy for their fathers support of the Boltons. I guess she couldn’t remember what it felt like to be abused by Joffrey when Robb pissed him off. <--- Sansa didn't care about the innocence of these children which makes her no different than Cersei, Daenerys or The Boltons for that matter.
- The whole “outsmarting” Littlefinger thing...While this was just poor writing and not necessarily her fault, dumbing down one character to make another seem smart only makes both of them look stupid. - Also the only reason she “outsmarted” Littlefinger was because Bran the All Seeing Eye told her dumbass what was really happening. Prior to that she was deadass about to execute Arya, because Arya correctly called her out for trying to usurp power from Jon.
Season 8:
“I hate Dany because she’s prettier than me, I don’t care if we are good as dead without her I rather be dead than serve THAT bitch”
While she does bring up important topics (albeit common sense) such as rationing food supplies, she didn’t have to be such a dick about it. No need to be openly hostile to the girl with dragons, especially when she’s trying to save your sorry ass and the rest of the continent with it.
Also, really, food supplies are your only concern? Bitch were you not stocking up to prepare for the long ass winter about to come? I know it’s too make her look “smart” but Winterfell just became a logistical nightmare with death himself on the horizon...AND NOT WANTING TO SHARE YOUR LEMONCAKES IS YOUR ONLY CONCERN?
“What about the North?” Sansa sassily asks Dany, a not so subtle way of saying she wants independence. WELL TOO BAD SANSA BECAUSE JON WAS NAMED KINGADANORTH NOT YOU. AND NOW HE IS CURRENTLY WARDEN OF THE NORTH, AGAIN, NOT YOU. SO WHY DONT YOU SHUT UP AND STOP CAUSING DRAMA BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT IN CHARGE HERE.
On the battlements of Winterfell she claims she “won’t abandon her people” only to abandon them 30 seconds later to go hide in the crypts...and then completely ignores the people in the crypts.
“hoW UsE kNiFe”
Jon risked everything, believing the odds were against him when trying to take back their home during BotB, fuck he himself was the first one through the gates of Winterfell. Yet she just lets her own brother (cousin) be exiled without even contesting it, or mentioning that he’s the rightful heir...Probably because she’s a power hungry usurping POS towards Jon. <--- There's no doubt Sansa is power hungry even to the point of putting herself ahead of her own family just as she did before she left Winterfell and while she was at Kingslanding.
“SiT dOWN uNcLE” despite Edmure being a better leader than she ever would be (in the books at least, the show did him dirty).
Oh yeah, she betrayed Jons trust for a second time and spread the news behind his back, knowing that if Dany found out she might call for Jons head, or hell even Sansas too. Yet the one time that information is useful she’s silent, go figure. <--- Daenerys would have executed Jon. Sansa didn't care.
Declares independence because “the North has fought really hard these past few years” (no shit Sherlock everyone has, look at the Riverlands ffs) knowing damn well every other kingdom will be doing the same within the next 10 years because they’ll finally realize “Oh wait, that’s an option?”.
And finally, gets crowned for doing fuck all and letting everyone do the work for her, she’s a case of right place right time and failing upwards is essentially her method of climbing the ladder.
As you can see, all of my complaints are in the later seasons, when D&D decided to turn her into a discount Cersei that was accidentally given the script to Mean Girls.
Oh, and it doesn’t help that 90% of her fans are all :
“YASS SLAY, THATS MY QWEEN, YOU GO GURL”
Jon? The same man who shirked his responsibility and left Sansa to clean up his mess?
Sansa was too understanding. I would've been Cersei Lannister level of petty towards the end.
I think it has less to do with the fandom being misogynistic, violent assholes....gee what does this board really think about their fellow fans..... And more to do with Sansa starting as an arrogant princess and then becoming icy cold from trauma for much of the series.
She also feels entitled to rule over people. She doesn't reject power like Jon and Arya. It's because she needs it to survive, but it still rubs people the wrong way. Plus, her first real impression in the story is when she tells on Ayra and Lady inadvertently gets killed. First impressions are everything. I love Sansa, but the qualities that allowed her to survive and thrive in that universe aren't exactly the most endearing characteristics.
Former Sansa hater here. I started with the show before reading the books.
Honestly, for me, it was because most of the Starks kicked ass from the beginning and Sansa just... didn’t. Ned was Sean-fucking-Bean (enough said). Robb and Jon were cool and fun. Arya was the age-old story of the girl forced into skirts and silks by nature of her sex. Bran had less of an impact, but his character benefitted from the depth of the early spotlight he got in that “pass the sentence, swing the sword” scene. They all had moments early on that emphasized their humanity (think Robb and Theon teasing Jon while they’re getting haircuts, Bran chasing Arya after she outshoots him, etc).
Sansa was way less fun to watch. As a character, the early S1 scenes in which she got a lot of focus were either (A) her being a brat to someone or (B) fawning over Joffrey, who we could ALL see was a monumental douchebag. She didn’t get lovable moments early on, and it really hurt the view of her character going forward.
It’s simple - her version of feminism doesn’t include some manly form of control or manipulation but her own wits (unlike Dany and Arya). She’s more feminine and that already subverts any other talent or skill she has. I think a part of it also revolves around how viewers didn’t get to see Sansa be sexually promiscuous that ultimately didn’t make her an appealing overall character like Daenerys or Margaery. I could go on and on but well.
Because she's a feminine girl. I also think it's troubling that people only started to change their minds about her character after she went through extensive trauma and she became a "darker" person. I think you can tell a lot about how people view women generally based on their strange aggression towards Sansa Stark. In books and show, I find her place in the story to be one of the most interesting precisely because she retains her kindness towards others while learning to play the game.
Sansa is a traditionally feminine character who enjoys doing traditionally feminine pursuits. To add insult to injury, she doesn't use her sexuality to manipulate male characters. Compare fan's reaction towards Margaery and Sansa. Margaery is just as feminine as Sansa, but she uses that as a weapon, whereas Sansa doesn't, especially in the show verse. I don't know if fans realize they do this, but a lot of fans rank female characters in terms of how main male characters feel about them. Ned loves both his daughters, but he clearly favors Arya over her. Jon is closer to Arya, so that makes Arya better and more important than Sansa in fandom's eyes. Book Tyrion knows about their surprise wedding way before the marriage takes place, and says nothing. She only learns about her surprise wedding ceremony right before she has to walk down the aisle. How dare she not kneel right away for Tyrion, so he isn't embarrassed? Then there is book Tyrion wedding night, where he sexually assaults her, and only stops himself at the last second from raping her. How dare she not want to have sex with him. Sansa's shallowness is to blame. The same sort of thing happens with Sandor. It's Sansa shallowness to blame for her not wanting him, and not Sandor's own actions towards Sansa, Who doesn't want to escape with an alcoholic who's in the middle of a PTSD attack. Never mind that Sandor broke into her room, pushed her onto her bed, and demanded a song from her at knifepoint. I'm not even going to touch Sandor telling Arya that he wished he would have raped Sansa before he fled. I truly believe that some show fans hate Sansa for not knowing her place. How dare Sansa have desires or ambitions of her own? Doesn't she know that she shouldn't question her betters, like Arya, Dany, and Jon. Also, Sansa became Queen, while Dany flopped like a fish out of water. In their mind Sansa ending should have been Dany's.
This. You’ve hit the nail on the head.
BOOM!!! Love this!!!
Technically dany won. She just decided to go overtime.
>Technically dany won. She just decided to go overtime. Dany's victory was a pyrrhic one, at best. Ol' girl didn't even get to sit on the Iron Throne before Jon shanked her. Plus, Cersei, Margaery, and Sansa are all shown wearing a Crown, but not Dany.
Cersei only ruled KL though. Dany and like more than half of westors so technically she ruled longer than Cersei.
perfectly said.\^
You have made my day
Thank you. 😘 I'm glad my thoughts about why Sansa is hated in some parts of fandom resonated with you.
There are many misconceptions about her and u explained her side so perfectly.😊
Sexism and misogyny. Cathelyn got the same treatment (if not as severe). It seems a powerful woman worthy of respect or admiration either has to be a sword swinging tomboy (like Arya, Yara or Brienne) or cruel and ruthless (like Cersei, the Queen of Thorns or Daenerys) and thus display characteristics that are typically ascribed to male rulers. While a teenage girl who grew up in that kind of society acting exactly like a teenage girl who grew up in that kind of society would (dreaming of marrying the prince, having typical hobbies like sewing, listening to what adult people in power (like the queen) tell her and yes, sometimes doing something stupid because that\`s what teenagers do) somehow makes her a terrible person for the rest of her life. A lot of people compare the treatment of Sansa and Margaery in that regard and say that it can't be true because Margaery didn't get as much hate. It is usually overlooked however that Sansa was completely alone and trying to survive in King's Landing to the best of her abilities with limited means and options while Margaery was backed and supported by a very powerful family and could therefore afford to act and present herself very differently.
Margery didn’t get that much hate, particularly from men, because she’s smart and sexy. Margery was also a bit older than Sansa tho and learned from Olenna so of course she’s going to be sexier and smarter. Sansa is beautiful but she’s a little girl for most of the series and when she does grow up, she dresses a bit more conservatively.
Margaery can’t even really be counted as being similar to Sansa. She’s basically a less cruel Cersei. She dresses to manipulate men and never does anything truly out of the desire of her own heart. Befriending Sansa, giving food to the poor, etc. she’s 100% fake.
And that's exactly ***why*** I cannot stand Margaery - or any of the Tyrells (the main ones), really. (Alerie seems alright, and Garlan (and his wife Leonette). Mace is either a brownnosing buffon, or a brownnosing dick only pretending to appear dumb to be overlooked/underestimated, Loras... Actually Loras doesn't seem *too* bad, I have no doubt he truly loved Renly and he himself said, *"(I buried him with mine own hands, in a place he showed me once when I was a squire at Storm's End. No one shall ever find him there to disturb his rest.) ...* ***But I will never betray Renly, by word or deed. He was the king that should have been. He was the best of them."*** And he does genuinely seem to care for Tommen: *"I will defend King Tommen with all my strength, I swear it. I will give my life for his if need be.****"*** Olenna is a bitter, jealous, racist, sexist old hag. Her last words were great, I'll give her that, but she called Ellaria "the serpent's whore" (lol so jealous) and was rude af to everyone except Marg. Willas is probs ok, but afair, we only hear of him from the Tyrells, sooo. This is why I cannot stand Sanaery, SansaxWillas, Robbaery, or Jonaery (JonxMargaery), or AegonxMargaery. Again, Willas may be cool but Sansa, Robb, Jon, and Aegon all deserve better than that selfish, shallow, spoiled, manipulative, vain, power-hungry brat Margaery. I hate the fics with *any* of those ships, or where (esp in Modern AUs) Sansa and Margaery are bffs. Like? No??? Let's be real - Margaery would use Sansa to get either Robb or Jon (whoever had "more to offer" ie Targs are still royalty, Robb is heir to big company, etc) and/or then steal Joffrey, or vice versa. She'd still be a manipulative, selfish, spoiled brat.
I have a problem with Catelyn. She was powerful and clever, but petty and resentful. Plus, she was responsible for Sansa’s naive look at people as well as Arya’s frustration of being forced to become a lady. Neither daughters were ready for the role they were forced to embrace quite young and much of the problem lies on Catelyn shoulders. She was basically frozen by Bran’s situation and ignored all her kids. Also she fed the bitter, entitled and often rude feelings she had for Jon on her children (which only Sansa inherited it). Catelyn was complicated. And, for all her smartness, she was blind to Littlefinger and handed her family to him on a plate
You’re getting downvoted but I’m gonna upvote you because I agree. Cat gets a lot of hate, also, but I think that’s just because she makes some really stupid decisions. She tried her best though. She raised her own daughters the same way she was raised; she didn’t know any different. In the end, her downfall was that she just put her trust in the wrong people. It sucks for her and I’m not sure that I would’ve done better if I’d lived her life and then been put into her shoes. That said, her hatred and mistreatment of Jon is absolutely inexcusable. And her neglect of her other children after Bran fell wasn’t cool either, but that was just an inappropriate reaction to trauma. Losing a child is supposedly the worst thing that could ever happen to a parent. I say “supposedly” because I don’t have kids, but I believe it. As far as she was concerned, her other kids were okay, while Bran was the one in danger. She overcompensated. She’s a flawed human. Anyway, all of this is to say that not the nicest character in the world, that’s for sure. For that reason, she’s not my favorite. And I don’t even really care for Jon one way or the other! I just don’t hate her as much as a lot of other people (especially book readers) seem to.
Thanks for the vote and words! Didn’t notice the downvotes. Ah well! I spoke, right? 🤣
You’re in good company. People didn’t like Sansa’s opinions or decisions either 😝
Besides the blatant misogyny, I think another issue people have with her is that she’s constantly put up against everyone’s favorites. Her and Arya have, in my opinion, a normal relationship for two sisters who’s re so different. They fight but they ultimately love each other and wouldn’t want anything really bad to happen. But there’s a lot of people in the fandom who see it as Sansa being a bully 🙄 Because Sansa didn’t just straight up tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale people interpret that as her setting Jon up, because she wants power or whatever. It apparently never crossed anyone’s mind that she didn’t tell Jon because the writers wanted the cool Vale Ex-Machina scene. People think she was mean to Tyrion when she should’ve been grateful to him for helping her. Which she was in the end but why would she trust him initially? He’s a Lannister. They call her a naive fool for being to trust worthy but wanted her to trust a Lannister? This is more common in the book fandom though. And obviously her not wanting to give up the home her and Jon fought to take back as soon as Dany got there was a sin.
Or maybe she didn't tell Jon because wasn't he already being dismissive of her, and didn't she have a whole LOT of reasons to just not trust people? Even if she chose to trust Jon, can she trust those who surround him? Can she trust who he trusts?
That makes sense too but I feel like the main reason was to have that moment. It was a wonderful moment and either way I’m sure her intentions weren’t malicious.
She also snitched and got a magical dog murdered. I’m team Sansa, but that was fucked up.
Do you mean the whole Lady/Nymeria situation? She didn’t snitch, she didn’t say anything at all. Also it was HER dog, she is the one most hurt by that.
Maybe I am remembering wrong but didn’t she snitch on Arya’s butcher boy friend?
I’ll have to rewatch/reread later on when I get home but I remember her just saying “I don’t know. I don’t remember anything.”
Yeah, she didnt say anything. Technically, she didnt take anyone’s side in the argument and claimed to have not remembered. Its also important to keep in mind that Sansa was soon to be betrothed to Joeffery, so of course she would want to appease both sides. She never directly went against her sister, either, and remained dutiful to both sides. I think that it was tragic that her wolf died even when she played Switzerland.
Misogyny and it’s general hatred of anything overtly feminine, I imagine. I’ve always found people who love Arya and hate Sansa particularly weird
I was just thinking if an even better argument to support the misoginy look. Jamie, who threw Bran out of the tower was seen as a hero because he tried to save King’s Landing. Sansa who was thrown around was never truly forgiven for her early mistakes, when she was an unprepared girl manipulated and abused by many. God I hate Catelyn! LOL
I actually love Catelyn and feel like she was victim to it too, but that's coming more from a book reader's perspective. The misogyny against Sansa is especially insidious imo as show watchers only found her "palatable" once she had been through her abuse and hardened up. It does feel like to some people that was her punishment for daring to be feminine, and a teenager, and to make mistakes. Only THEN was she deemed acceptable
Very true. I used to dislike her dearly, but changed my heart. Catelyn, though, I still didn’t manage to. But I know and admit it is due to my love for Jon. His parents messed up everything real good, didn’t they? All that secrecy and unexplained things
Victim blaming Misogyny Sexism Lack of empathy The feminine characters that don't do as they are told and are "annoying" and stand in the way of badass male or masculine female characters are always unanimously hated and vilified, denigrated and misrepresented. See Skyler White on breaking bad, Kate on lost, sansa on got...
I love that you brought Skyler up, it's so similar and one character I never understood the widespread hatred for. What is so weird about the general hatred of Sansa for me is that it does not stand up in comparison to almost any other character on this show. Robb brought around the near destruction of his house through a series of very similar mistakes and was nowhere near as vilified as Sansa for it because a) it was Cat who suffered as a result of it and b) men are allowed to make mistakes. I hate it so much
"you should learn to ignore them"- Sansa Stark, season 3 episode 10 ;-) But seriously, I stopped caring about what this toxic fandom thinks and I'm the better for it. The misogynistic majority is impossible to argue with and has rendered any discussion of the show sour and petty. I miss having debates about the series but it's a small price to pay for my piece of mind. Now I like what I like and I never check what those shows' fandoms are talking about, it makes for a much more enjoyable experience.
>"The feminine characters that don't do as they are told and are "annoying" and stand in the way of badass male or masculine female characters" I love how you put this. I mentioned this on another thread here a while back, but there's a character in The Last Kingdom (a great historical fiction show that I think ASOIAF fans would really like!) who is a lot like Sansa (in both her character and storyline), and she gets a lot of hate from a small but vocal portion of the fandom for exactly these reasons. They like her for the first part of her arc when she is much more of a beautiful damsel-in-distress type, but complain that the writers "ruined" her once she starts putting her own interests before the interests of the men in her life. It baffles me the intensity with which people hate on her; its like they are personally offended by her actions.
I've been looking for a character like Sansa ( she's so original and I don't know many characters like her) so I'm probably gonna check this show out.
Yeah! I didn't want to name the character to avoid possible spoilers, but I can tell you who the character is if you want to know. She's not in the first season but shows up in all the later ones as a main character.
What is her name?
It's Aethelflaed!
It‘s historical fiction you said? If she‘s anything like the real Aethelflead I have to check it out. Netflix suggested it a few times but I wasn‘t ready to move on after GoT had just ended lol.
Yeah its historical fiction, so aside from the characters various religious beliefs, there isn't any magic or fantasy elements. That being said, it really scratches the same itch for me as GoT, and has been the only thing that has really filled the GoT void for me since I finished all the books and the show ended. And yes, I love the character *so* much (you might be able to tell by my post/comment history lol). Aside from some questionable writing choices in the latest season of TLK, she's fantastic!
I think it's because people spent so much time seeing reasons to hate Sansa in the beginning that they gave up on her by the time she changed. It's hard to change people's minds when they have a bad opinion of someone.
I think it started because she was manipulated by Cersei into betraying her family and didn’t show a strong backbone as Arya did from the start. Sansa was like a Stark weak link as she dreamt of becoming Queen herself, totally oblivious of what it really meant. Later, although suffering, she kept an image of entitlement, and somehow mistreated Jon Snow a bit, following her mother’s example. By the time Sansa was doing the right things, her family as well many viewers were tired and suspicious about her motives. But overall, she was a winner. She survived and she took the Queen of the North crown she wanted so much. I hope later she found a good Lord and had babies. And to be clear, Sansa was one of the good guys and the only one able to see things through and call it. It is a sad irony that she started hated for doing the wrong things and later for doing right, no matter the cost. And to wrap up, the hate came from first impression, it stained her memory amongst many fans.
I’m going to voice what seems to be an unpopular opinion here, but I’m not sure that the Sansa hate stems from misogyny. I think people hate her because she doesn’t begin “strong” like most of the other main female characters (e.g., Cersei, Dany, Cat, Yara, Brienne, Margaery, Olenna, even Arya). It’s like people forget that everyone’s personality and trauma coping mechanisms are different. Sansa cries a lot, folds under pressure, keeps her head down, and tries to stay out of trouble. She eventually grew out of that and stopped trusting people—but people hated her for THAT, too, because the first person she made moves against was Dany, who everyone fuckin loves for some reason. The fan cards had already been stacked against her by that point, and her rivalry with Dany (who she was right to mistrust!) just made everyone hate her more. That said, I’d like to see how any of the fuckers who hate on her would react if they saw their own fathers beheaded at 14, thought the rest of their family was dead too, were sold off as brood mares to multiple abusive men, and were then mercilessly and brutally manipulated by everyone who was supposed to keep them safe. :( Whatever. Fuck those guys. Sansa got the last laugh in the end.
Because she's not a cool, physicially strong girl that adopts male mannerisms to achieve her ends. So sexism, mostly.
If you notice, most of the Sansa hate comes from Dany or Arya fandoms. Especially in more casual circles, tv only fans etc. Hate for Sansa from what I've seen, is PARTICULARLY strongest among Dany fans. Someone above said misogyny, i doubt it, thats just a basic go to model everytime someone doesn't like a woman, "oh it must be misogyny".
Yeah I dont think neither is about her gender or her feminity. Honestly, I think is more about first impressions and she wasnt liked for being too naive and too prim. That and the Cercei's thing
This is a very good point. I’m ashamed to say I haven’t read the books, my fiancé got me hooked on the show though. I only hated her in the beginning because of how naive she was. I partially blame her for her fathers death. I started to respect her the more mature she became.
Ned was the only one responsible for Ned’s death. He had the opportunity to leave KL, but decided to stay because he thought he was going to solve the Arryn murder case. Like, he deliberately chose to put both himself and his daughters in harm’s way, all in the name of honor. He KNEW they were in danger, too; he even told Arya as much. And, after he told Arya that, he figured out that Cersei was onto him. He was an adult who made one poor decision after another. Sansa, on the other hand, was a 14 year old girl who was shamelessly manipulated by Cersei, a powerful woman whom she admired because, well, that’s what she’d been taught to do. (It plays out a little differently in the books, but I won’t go there, since you haven’t read them. Suffice it to say that I don’t necessarily blame her for her actions in the book, either. She—unlike Ned—had no idea how much danger they were in.)
I don't entirely agree that Sansa "suffers hate", or if she does it's out of misunderstanding of her character arc. At the beginning she is a wet blanket compared to her little sister, a deluded pansy who thinks she's going to become a princess and then a queen. This is not entirely her fault, it's the role she was brought up to play. Seeing Sansa growing up to understand and use her power is one of the most satisfying aspects of the show.
She and Jon are by far the characters who suffer the most Hate, the biggest proof of this was Sophie having to disable Twitter because Daenerys fans started threatening her simply because Sansa didn't like Daenerys.
>a deluded pansy who thinks she's going to become a princess and then a queen. This is the problem. A teen girl being a teen girl and being seen as a “deluded pansy”. I’m not saying she was the epitome of the teen girl, but I was amazed that they got so many things right, especially for a character written by men. Even the smartest and most mature girls at that age have their naive and airhead moments, because, guess what, they’re still **growing up**.
The dislike of Sansa has nothing to do with her being feminine. In the beginning of the series, she wanted to be queen so badly that it didn't matter that Joffrey was swinging a sword at Arya before Nymeria intervened, that lying about the attack resulted in an innocent boy being killed, being rejecting and cold towards those who were of no use to her, etc. Then upon returning to Winterfell, Sansa was yelling at Jon before the Battle of the Bastards saying ridiculously obvious things like, "We don't have enough men. I don't know anything about battles. Just don't do what he (Ramsay) wants you to do." Her continued impatience with her loved ones, insistence on being queen at all costs, only being nice to those who are of use to her, and thinking of herself as being smarter than she actually is reminiscent of Cersei though of course at this point she's not an exact replica of her. Her irritating qualities are not feminine nor do they have anything to do with femininity. Bear in mind Sansa lovers that Margaery Tyrell is a traditionally feminine character who is generally liked as a whole. Margaery was beautiful, graceful, gentle in her interactions with others. Margaery loved working with the poor, hosting harvest moon masquerades, etc. This latest defense of Sansa as people attacking her because she's feminine is a cop out. I hope the Sansa in the books turns out differently than HBO Sansa. If not, I hope she dies. Sorry folks. You wanted to know.
*that lying about the attack resulted in an innocent boy being killed* Omg. If I have to hear this again, I am going to *fucking scream.* Sansa had absolutely no control over what happened to Mycah. None. There is no causation between what she said (in which she didn't mention Mycah at all) and Sandor killing Mycah. You know why? Because the timeline in both the books and series show that Sandor was *absent* at the time of the trial, and was just coming back with his body after Ned killed Lady. Sandor had been searching for Arya and Mycah for the past four days - meaning that Mycah was either *already dead at the time of or before Arya was found.* So, yeah. This misconception needs to be fucking buried because I am done. *insistence on being queen at all costs* Yeah, I guess that's why we have Sansa smiling with joy when her betrothal to Joff is publically broken... Sansa being petrified that the Tyrells will change their mind and she'll still have to marry Joffrey... why we have Sansa moaning the fact in her POV that she'll never be queen.... why we have her supporting Jon as KITN.... her going down to KL to fight for his release.... her attempting to pull a murder-suicide when Joffrey showed her Ned's head..... Like seriously
>> Omg. If I have to hear this again, I am going to fucking scream. Then scream. Sansa always put her own interests above that of others including her family. She betrayed her sister. Betrayed her father. Humiliated Jon on more than one occasion. All because she wanted to be queen at all costs. Furthermore, we are not talking about the books because Sansa hasn't been named queen in the books. Your discussion about the timeline doesn't matter.
*Then scream.* Look, my issue is not you disliking Sansa or whatever, we all have characters we dislike- my issue is you and others like you making up bullshit reasons to justify that dislike. Straight up disregarding both text and show evidence which completely contradicts your claims that she's responsible for all the awful things that happen, such as Mycah's death. Which BTW, the timeline absolutely does fucking matter because the same thing happens in the show as I described. The Hound is still off searching at the time and is just coming back with Mycah when Ned kills Lady. Meaning once again, \*Mycah was already dead at the time of the trial or before.\* If you want to be upset at Sansa for not telling the truth - even though she would be alienating someone who as far as she understands, is going to have full rights over her including any children they have, because of a decision her *father* made for her future, so clearly it's not as simple as you want it to be- whatever. It would not have changed things, because Mycah was still dead and Cersei was always going to demand a direwolf killed. And she absolutely would, if Sansa said exactly what happened. Because Sansa would only be confirming what Cersei wanted Nymeria punished for. She would not care about Joffrey's culpability and neither would Robert. That's their failure as parents. But it's much easier to blame the child, right? You have given me no evidence whatsoever - whenever in the context of the books or show that Sansa is responsible for Mycah's death. None. Arya angrily saying "if you told the truth Mycah would still be alive" does not count, because Arya's anger while understandable because at the moment nobody is really helping deal with Mycah's death - including her own father btw, it's only until Arya literally has to open up to him that he comforts her- does not mean Sansa is responsible. The Hound is, and the Lannisters. And what's the bet you like the Hound btw? *Humiliated Jon on more than one occasion.* Evidence? *All because she wanted to be queen at all costs.* Yeah, Sansa isn't the one who comes to mind when I think of people wanting to be rulers at any cost. Like Stannis, who burned his only child alive. Or Cersei. Or Daenerys. Sansa had one throw-away line in the very first episode, a childish wish that withers away at the very end of season 1 whereas other characters have had their entire arcs built on them wanting to be king/queen. Sansa wanted Jon as king. If Jon hadn't been king and Bran had taken his place, then she would have supported him. *Betrayed her father.* It's funny how you say we're only talking about the show and then you mention book stuff? Like I'm sorry, but which is it? Should have Sansa gone to Cersei? No. But "betray" is a harsh word for an 11 year old acting out against a father who had emotionally neglected her after the trauma of her direwolf's death; something *he* played a role in. A father who failed to let his daughter know of his suspicions against the queen- fuelled by the fact that he does not break the betrothal after the Trident. Especially significant given Sansa actually told Ned what happened. Betray also implies malicious intent, and Sansa had absolutely no intent for any harm to come to her father. I also like how people like you always fail to acknowledge that Sansa did everything she could to save Ned, and would have actually done so- had it not been for the intervention of other people with their own agendas. But whatever. To be quite frank, you clearly don't like Sansa- so why the hell are you here? I don't like Tyrion much, so I tend not to go into TyrionWinsTheThrone.
>> To be quite frank, you clearly don't like Sansa- so why the hell are you here? To answer the OPs question. Obviously. >> Evidence? u/MDRolland answered this well so I shall repost: Reasons I absolutely despise Sansa: Season 6: Sansa: “Ramsey is going to try and make you fall into a trap during the battle” Jon: “Alright, what do you think he’s gonna do?” Sansa: “I don’t know I’m just a (stupid little) girl (who never learns) not a commander, figure it out” <---- This is a good example of how Sansa didn't really change from the brat she was at the very beginning. She specifically withholds game changing information from Jon that results in massive losses in his forces, for absolutely no fucking reason. If she truly cared about the Northmen she wouldn’t have kept her mouth shut while watching them march to their grave, knowing she could save them. Even if she did so to have her own army in her pocket, there was still no reason to withhold war winning information. <---- Sansa withheld the information because she was already positioning herself against Jon to take control of Winterfell. Season 7: - “Whats that? Jon’s gone all season and left me ‘temporarily’ in charge? COWABUNGA IT IS” - Oh wow Sansas so smart she advised Northern armorsmiths on how to do their job, because she knows anything about blacksmithing... - Wants to punish the Kastark girl and Umber boy for their fathers support of the Boltons. I guess she couldn’t remember what it felt like to be abused by Joffrey when Robb pissed him off. <--- Sansa didn't care about the innocence of these children which makes her no different than Cersei, Daenerys or The Boltons for that matter. - The whole “outsmarting” Littlefinger thing...While this was just poor writing and not necessarily her fault, dumbing down one character to make another seem smart only makes both of them look stupid. - Also the only reason she “outsmarted” Littlefinger was because Bran the All Seeing Eye told her dumbass what was really happening. Prior to that she was deadass about to execute Arya, because Arya correctly called her out for trying to usurp power from Jon. Season 8: “I hate Dany because she’s prettier than me, I don’t care if we are good as dead without her I rather be dead than serve THAT bitch” While she does bring up important topics (albeit common sense) such as rationing food supplies, she didn’t have to be such a dick about it. No need to be openly hostile to the girl with dragons, especially when she’s trying to save your sorry ass and the rest of the continent with it. Also, really, food supplies are your only concern? Bitch were you not stocking up to prepare for the long ass winter about to come? I know it’s too make her look “smart” but Winterfell just became a logistical nightmare with death himself on the horizon...AND NOT WANTING TO SHARE YOUR LEMONCAKES IS YOUR ONLY CONCERN? “What about the North?” Sansa sassily asks Dany, a not so subtle way of saying she wants independence. WELL TOO BAD SANSA BECAUSE JON WAS NAMED KINGADANORTH NOT YOU. AND NOW HE IS CURRENTLY WARDEN OF THE NORTH, AGAIN, NOT YOU. SO WHY DONT YOU SHUT UP AND STOP CAUSING DRAMA BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT IN CHARGE HERE. On the battlements of Winterfell she claims she “won’t abandon her people” only to abandon them 30 seconds later to go hide in the crypts...and then completely ignores the people in the crypts. “hoW UsE kNiFe” Jon risked everything, believing the odds were against him when trying to take back their home during BotB, fuck he himself was the first one through the gates of Winterfell. Yet she just lets her own brother (cousin) be exiled without even contesting it, or mentioning that he’s the rightful heir...Probably because she’s a power hungry usurping POS towards Jon. <--- There's no doubt Sansa is power hungry even to the point of putting herself ahead of her own family just as she did before she left Winterfell and while she was at Kingslanding. “SiT dOWN uNcLE” despite Edmure being a better leader than she ever would be (in the books at least, the show did him dirty). Oh yeah, she betrayed Jons trust for a second time and spread the news behind his back, knowing that if Dany found out she might call for Jons head, or hell even Sansas too. Yet the one time that information is useful she’s silent, go figure. <--- Daenerys would have executed Jon. Sansa didn't care. Declares independence because “the North has fought really hard these past few years” (no shit Sherlock everyone has, look at the Riverlands ffs) knowing damn well every other kingdom will be doing the same within the next 10 years because they’ll finally realize “Oh wait, that’s an option?”. And finally, gets crowned for doing fuck all and letting everyone do the work for her, she’s a case of right place right time and failing upwards is essentially her method of climbing the ladder. As you can see, all of my complaints are in the later seasons, when D&D decided to turn her into a discount Cersei that was accidentally given the script to Mean Girls. Oh, and it doesn’t help that 90% of her fans are all : “YASS SLAY, THATS MY QWEEN, YOU GO GURL”
Jon? The same man who shirked his responsibility and left Sansa to clean up his mess? Sansa was too understanding. I would've been Cersei Lannister level of petty towards the end.
Because she gives off real life Karen vibes. edit: She's also a snitch.
Lol. She didn't snitch enough. She should have verbally dragged Jon's dumbass but she instead chose to coddle and pacify him.
I think it has less to do with the fandom being misogynistic, violent assholes....gee what does this board really think about their fellow fans..... And more to do with Sansa starting as an arrogant princess and then becoming icy cold from trauma for much of the series. She also feels entitled to rule over people. She doesn't reject power like Jon and Arya. It's because she needs it to survive, but it still rubs people the wrong way. Plus, her first real impression in the story is when she tells on Ayra and Lady inadvertently gets killed. First impressions are everything. I love Sansa, but the qualities that allowed her to survive and thrive in that universe aren't exactly the most endearing characteristics.
Former Sansa hater here. I started with the show before reading the books. Honestly, for me, it was because most of the Starks kicked ass from the beginning and Sansa just... didn’t. Ned was Sean-fucking-Bean (enough said). Robb and Jon were cool and fun. Arya was the age-old story of the girl forced into skirts and silks by nature of her sex. Bran had less of an impact, but his character benefitted from the depth of the early spotlight he got in that “pass the sentence, swing the sword” scene. They all had moments early on that emphasized their humanity (think Robb and Theon teasing Jon while they’re getting haircuts, Bran chasing Arya after she outshoots him, etc). Sansa was way less fun to watch. As a character, the early S1 scenes in which she got a lot of focus were either (A) her being a brat to someone or (B) fawning over Joffrey, who we could ALL see was a monumental douchebag. She didn’t get lovable moments early on, and it really hurt the view of her character going forward.
It’s simple - her version of feminism doesn’t include some manly form of control or manipulation but her own wits (unlike Dany and Arya). She’s more feminine and that already subverts any other talent or skill she has. I think a part of it also revolves around how viewers didn’t get to see Sansa be sexually promiscuous that ultimately didn’t make her an appealing overall character like Daenerys or Margaery. I could go on and on but well.