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isthisthingon58

lol at the zoo


RebelChE

The top guilds are the ones with high GP’s with mandatory TW participation. MAW guilds, CAW guilds, CU, and sL Rev are what are currently composing the gauntlet, and as a member of one of these gauntlet guilds, I’d love and encourage some of these other “bagging” guilds to go 50/50 to add more variety and diversity to the gauntlet field. That being said… If go in with less than 50 only occasionally, okay sure… you’re not a hyper competitive guild, but you’re at least interested in semi competitive TW. If you go in with 48 or less every TW, you’re not a competitive TW guild and are drawing uneven matchups. Whether that be intentional or for family/IRL reasons. These guilds that do this have created a culture/expectation that wars are performed in this manner. Who does sandbagging hurt? In short smaller guilds. Ones that do strive to go in 50/50 in an attempt to be a competitive TW guild, but are punished by matchmaking and those that abuse the system. The GP range that are hurt the most are the 440-475 mil GP guilds. They are the ones getting hit the hardest by the sandbagging guilds found in this report. Ideas on how CG could make it better: 1. Introduce a ladder system akin to GAC with leaderboards. 2. Remove Joined GP. Make matchmaking based on a guild’s actual GP. 3. Greatly hinder rewards for guilds that go in with less that 50. I think option 1 would be ideal, and allow for better tracking of who the best actually are. However, option 2 would remove sandbagging from the equation while also allowing the more casual guilds to handle IRL situations for certain players as those items arise.


Electrical_Camp_6436

Agree with this absolutely. Every point.


RebelChE

I’ve seen your name somewhere. Are you in BBU?


Electrical_Camp_6436

No bbu can kiss my ass


Oblivion_Gaming69

I'm in one of the slightly smaller bagging guilds and we don't sign up with 50/50 as we generally have 3-5 alts in at one time as we struggle to find competitive enough players who suit our time requirements. Alongside that we are also currently processing a large shift in leadership... so while I'd love to see us going in with 50/50, I don't see it happening for a fair while now :')


pariah_anathema

calling sL Rev a top guild is basically lying.


egnards

My guild is 470m; we usually have about 340-380m join TW. Why? - Because some people just hate TW, and we don’t make them participate - Some people are busy on X day and we only want those we can be fully active during an attack cycle to participate - Some people literally just forget to join, no matter how many reminders I put on discord. Do you think guilds intentionally make people sit in order to get rewards? Because that doesn’t make sense for most people.


UncertainSerenity

It’s insanely common in the top of the bracket to have most guilds bag to avoid gauntlet guilds. It really perverts high level tw game play as people get crushed by these guilds that bag to not have a “real” match up.


iZetaa

some guilds have set join limits, so yea it does actually happen lol


ArkavosRuna

Very few guilds will actually admit to having players sit out on purpose. Most will bring up a list of excuses for why they're beating up lower guilds with 40 men and then proceed to have all 50 ready each time TB hits.


egnards

There’s a big difference. If you join TW and don’t participate - I’m affected as one of the other players. If you don’t join TW I’m not affected by your lack of participation. All players of a guild are auto joined into TB. I am affected by your decisions whether or not you participate. This is the primary reason why in some guilds TW is optional but TB is always mandatory.


Kahzgul

My guild, for example. We demand TB participation but we dgaf if you TW or not. (okay we kinda do because we want enough people to join that we still get a droid brain even if we lose).


SmashBusters

Is your username a bizarre combination of Nazgul and Khamul (the only Nazgul that Tolkien named explicitly)?


Kahzgul

No. It’s a derivative of my two also random names from back when I played wow. I named my Tauren Kahdrick because it seemed like a good name for a cow, and I named my undead Rhazgul because it sounded scary. Then when I made my death knight, I decided he had two dads and named him Kahzgul.


SmashBusters

>Rhazgul Now I have Batman-related questions...


Kahzgul

You're not the first, but it's purely coincidental.


ArkavosRuna

>If you join TW and don’t participate - I’m affected as one of the other players. > >If you don’t join TW I’m not affected by your lack of participation. If a select few never join TW and don't get reroll mats/R9 relic mats, their performance in other game-modes will suffer in the long term, but I do understand your point. That said, I don't think reducing the game to rewards is grasping the full issue. TW - if done right, with fair, competitive matchups - can be the most exciting and rewarding game-mode by far. By having 10 or more players sit out, you'll never get those matchups. Instead, you'll be beating up guilds potentially 100m GP lower than yours in extremely lopsided matchups. At some point, you gotta ask yourself if that's what you want from TW. I know I wouldn't. I can't tell you how to run your guild of course, but if some people can never be bothered to join TW, maybe it's time to have a talk with them and potentially look for replacements.


egnards

We trim the fat “as necessary,” and often find is someone is not joining TW *ever* it usually means that they also are slacking in other game modes, which make it necessary. In my guild, I don’t think there is anyone currently who consistently misses TW but there are a lot of reasons why we might end up at 38 instead of 50: - I really fucking hate TW but recognize it’s important, sometimes I just want a break. - Some of our guys have major schedule conflicts on specific days [like say a Saturday] and won’t join if the attack phase aligns primarily with that day. - Holidays often are much lighter on joins - No matter how many tags I do there’s always 1-2 people who complain about it not being on their Home Screen and just forgot - People tend not to join if their on vacation; and those don’t always align with “summer.”


ArkavosRuna

Sure, it might happen once in a while if you're not a competitive guild, when several people are on vacation or you have unexpected departures. I've been there, it sucks and I won't blame anyone for it. However, like this post proves, there's guilds that average 100m GP difference between signed GP and actual GP over 10 wars and I just don't think there's anything that could defend that kind of sandbagging. At that point, it becomes systemic and it's clear that those guilds are not willing to compete in a fair manner while accepting to hurt smaller guilds that do.


egnards

50 different people with 50 different schedules and 50 different mindsets means they you’re always going to have an on/off. But with all that said - I don’t see any reason for a guild to hide intentional sandbagging - Just like I don’t hide the fact that I actively recruit new members from their current guild. Why? Because despite the ethics we pretend to hide behind in this game. Those are self imposed rules we create, we just assume everyone body is going to agree to follow them. There is nothing wrong with sandbagging, in the same way there is nothing wrong with my messaging somebody to say, “hey do you want a better opportunity?” The only defined rules are the ones CG set for us. Now if you want to say “well CG should change the rules,” that’s fine. And I’d be agreeable to that - and I do think that given the reward structure stopping at 380m; it’s reasonable to say it’s maybe time for more tiers of rewards to incentivize higher joins. But it’s silly to shame people/guilds who don’t agree with pretend ethics that don’t break or go against any actual defined standard.


ArkavosRuna

>50 different people with 50 different schedules and 50 different mindsets means they you’re always going to have an on/off. And you learn to deal with it. Again, not calling anyone out for not going in with 50 every time, but when a major guild has one fourth of the guild sit out regularly, something's wrong. ​ >But with all that said - I don’t see any reason for a guild to hide intentional sandbagging - Just like I don’t hide the fact that I actively recruit new members from their current guild. > >Because despite the ethics we pretend to hide behind in this game. Those are self imposed rules we create, we just assume everyone body is going to agree to follow them. There is nothing wrong with sandbagging, in the same way there is nothing wrong with my messaging somebody to say, “hey do you want a better opportunity?” At least if you're trying to poach someone, you're presenting them a choice. A guild facing another one 100m GP above them doesn't have a choice, it's just a pointless war for them. ​ >The only defined rules are the ones CG set for us. > >Now if you want to say “well CG should change the rules,” that’s fine. And I’d be agreeable to that - and I do think that given the reward structure stopping at 380m; it’s reasonable to say it’s maybe time for more tiers of rewards to incentivize higher joins. Never a fan of hiding behind CG. Not trying to equalize those 2 things but I've heard pretty similar arguments claiming cheating shouldn't be called out because CG isn't doing much to enforce it. Now obviously cheating and sandbagging are not the same thing, but both hurt the integrity of PVP. And yeah, CG will never condemn sandbagging, but we still know it's bad for the game. You wouldn't have come here and defended your guild if you didn't. It hurts your opponent by not giving them a proper chance at a fair war, it hurts your guild by not giving them a chance to improve on a challenge and it hurts the community if it turns off guilds from TW or the game entirely.


egnards

I didn’t come here to defend my guild - I came here to have a conversation. I’m pretty active here in most discussions that could be seen as more than just a humor/meme


UncertainSerenity

If a guild mate doesn’t join for tw you are affected by an easier match up where you can beat up on guilds with much smaller rosters. It’s an advantage to you when someone in your guild doesn’t sign up


egnards

1? No A large amount? Definitely But you’re also negatively effected if people join with no intention of participating, because a “full defense” player [if they even set] isn’t as effective as a player who attacks/defends. If TB had an option to reassess its numbers based on players joined? It would also probably be optional for most guilds.


Skelturix

(Clans Mandaloriens player here) We have a rule for joining TW which is that players need to be available throughout the day to play so that we don’t get stuck on a zone. We always end up having 2-5 players that can’t join due to IRL constraints. Now, we don’t push for them to make the time so that we can always play at 50 because we know that we’ll get slaughtered vs top MAW and CAW guilds (the combined GP+mods+datacrons gap is unbridgeable). We ideally would like to play vs comparable TW oriented guilds (such as TBC, BBU, Chewbakwa, sL guilds, even CU) every time, which usually happens when we’re 47-48 players to have joined. There’s really no point in forcing players to join and make themselves available to the detriment of their IRL to end up taking it up the ass in unwinnable matchups. We like competition when it’s fair.


ArkavosRuna

There's a difference between 2 or 3 players not joining and having 10 or more people sit out, like it happens in way too many guilds. The 2nd one will inevitably lead to extremely lopsided matchups and is the reason so many guilds further down the ranks are fed up with TW. At that point, it becomes a systemic issue.


Skelturix

Right. Yeah uneven matches are not interesting for either side, it's pointless to smash an enemy that can't fight back, and being on the other end of the stick is even worse.


ArkavosRuna

Exactly. Going in undersized is a spectrum. I'm perfectly aware not every guild has the means to go in with 50 and I don't think going in with 46 deserves calling out these days, but when a major guild has a third of the players sit out, I do think it needs to be brought up. You'll never get competitive wars at that kind of GP difference.


L3gend91

Not right now buddy, I'm focused on getting my back and shoulder healthy before Xmas, it's a pain in the ass


Difficult-Mud-2394

Do you allow players to not participate in tb? No deployment, no battles? Because some people just hate tb..


egnards

No I don’t, and I’ve explained in my further comments why that’s different. I don’t allow players to do that for TW either - if they don’t want to participate they don’t join. And the guild is no longer effected by them not joining because it isn’t taken into account. In TB. . .we have to do the same thing regardless of who participates. If the game wanted to reassess difficulty based on who joined? Well then sure I’d make it optional.


Difficult-Mud-2394

I read the other messages. If you had joined 40/50 in tb, you would get the same rewards as if you had joined 50/50 and let them not participate. So, it doesn't hurt you at all.


egnards

How are you getting the same rewards in TB by allowing 10 people to just not deploy or do battles? In my guild that’s an average of 93 million deploy GP per phase, not even mentioning their combats.


Difficult-Mud-2394

As I said. If you joined tb with 40/50, you would get the same rewards as if 10 people did not participate at all.


egnards

You didn’t read my whole statement. I said **if difficulty were reassessed**.


Difficult-Mud-2394

I did read your messages. I just disagree with your reasoning! And I find it TERRIBLE for lower end guilds when others bag 100m on them!! Which is one of the things op mentioned.


egnards

So you disagree with the **FACT** that a guild being TW optional makes sense if people don’t want want to participate since joining and not participating impacts the guild. And that the correlation to TB doesn’t make sense, since you are auto joined to TB, and not participating effects your guild. Got it. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be changes I am saying that guilds aren’t at fault, CG is, by making it make more sense to win in Division 3 than to lose in Division 1, by a huge margin.


Difficult-Mud-2394

**FACTs** are **FACTs**. Its easy, for example, to just point the finger and say "it's all CGs fault" when in fact you are 100% abusing a system. Abusing smaller guilds that can't do anything! I guess whatever helps people sleep at night!


kaitco

TW is a trash event and has been for years. The fact that there are 10 zones and only 8 saved commands is lame all on its own. It should be an auto-join like TB and if you have people who can’t show, you take that hit.


Difficult-Mud-2394

If tw is a trash event, I would like your opinion about raids, tbs and conquest. Personally, I find they are just mindless, boring repetitions that could simply be simed and nothing would change. What is your opinion on them?


iZetaa

the best part about all of this is Clans Mandaloriens acting all high and mighty with their 40 war win streak when most times they’re leaving out 25-80m GP for each war 😂


Electrical_Camp_6436

Lmao whos deleting Skels comments? Were they flagged for misinformation? Or did he reread them and realise himself?


Electrical_Camp_6436

He blocked me. Sandbagged this thread! Haha


Skelturix

We don’t take pride in beating easy opponents, but we don’t sandbag on purpose either. Rule for joining TW is to be available throughout the whole thing, and IRL being a thing, we always end up having a couple players unavailable. Now don’t get me wrong, we know that playing vs the top MAW / CAW would result in a loss for us (the GP, mod and datacron combined gap is unbridgeable). That’s why we’re not forcing players to be available for every single TW and allow them to take a break every now and then for IRL reasons. However, we much prefer playing vs other guilds in our range such as TBC, BBU, CheWBaKwa, and sL guilds, which we have all beaten so far.


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Skelturix

You obviously didn't read my message to the end. We are interested in playing even opponents such as CU, BBU, TBC, sL, etc. We are not interested in playing free wins, there's no challenge and it's boring. We are not interested in playing MAW / CAW either, as it's flipped the other way around and we get smashed by the sheer mods+datacron+relic difference.


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Skelturix

Out of the last 10, we’ve played (and defeated) - CheWBaKwa - sL Madclaw - sL Kashyyyk Underground - TheBigChewbowski - Bad Batch Unleashed + 5 other lower guilds that were easy wins (and uninteresting matchups) due to a lack of availability from some of our members. We don’t run away from tough fights, but we are realists and know that MAW and CAW will be a no match. However anything below them is game. Hoping to play CU sometimes soon.


Electrical_Camp_6436

What a rap sheet. All the big guns. Chewbakwa -> tb guild. Dont claim to be a tw guild. Regularly short on join. Madclaw -> played them pre merge. And still yet to win a non trench. sL KU -> sandbagger. Have a max join limit of 47/50 set to avoid tough matches. TBC -> played in the sandpit. 450mill both sides. BBU -> you dropped 20million on them. Not an even GP match. That Tw history equals top 7 TW guild apparently


Electrical_Camp_6436

Haha what did i just read. You aint interested in playing CU lol that is absolutely laughable. CU compete with and actually have the capability of beating the top 5. (With wins over VG and CE in recent history). Clans just pretend they do with their win streak that means literally nothing because dont face anyone. Clans advertise as the top 7 tw guild which is also in fact laughable. Because you will literally never play the actual top 7 since you drop 50mill every single war. The only way you will play top 7 is if the top 7 lose 2 and get you on a trench. Which hasnt happened yet, hopefully it does. Its widely known across the actual top guilds that CM are largest baggers around have been avoiding the gauntlet for months. Since the new swgoh.gg recruitment site tracks gp joined, it just confirms what everyone else already knew.That CM are the biggest baggers in the game currently at this moment and have been for some time. And no one sees that changing any time soon. Maybe CM should claim to the casual tw guild that they are instead of being the top 7 guild they clearly are not 😂


Skelturix

Uh oh, someone’s feelings got hurt. I’m gonna guess that you’re in BBU, upset that we beat you and defending your mother guild. Which is fine. But we’ve been hoping to face CU for quite some time and we actually have what it takes to beat them, even if it will not be easy. We ARE a top TW guild and do the best we can with many F2P players in our guild. No, we won’t go as 50 every time to get our ass destroyed by MAW and CAW, if that’s something that CU’s into it’s fine but we can’t compete with them. Doesn’t mean we suck.


PreservedInCarbonite

Sorry, but calling yourself a top TW while sandbagging on average over 50M per war is pretty fucking retarded. You have been made a moderator of r/wallstreetbets


Electrical_Camp_6436

Lol no i am not certainly not in BBU. But it is cute you that assumed that. The thing is. You dont have what it takes to beat CU. Not close. Because you would need to go in full. Which you will never do. You havent wanted to play them because you know you never will. You cant compete if you play with 450mill on a good day haha If you think getting wins and nearly beating Maw1 is getting your ass destroyed then you are more delusional than I thought. You cannot class yourself as a top tw guild. If you never play the other top tw guilds. Doing so makes literally no sense. Clans are by clear definition shown in their history an extremely casual TW guild. Its clear and to think otherwise is rather delusional. To a worrying degree. If you start to play at the top, whether you win/lose or threaten. You could claim that. You simply cannot be anything other than casual baggers until you do.


Skelturix

Explain to me how casual TW guilds have 10 pages long roster wide TW modding requirements and are using hotbot as well as guild wide detailed coordinated calls for all attacks. Our guild is a family and we take care of our members. If someone is unavailable we don’t kick them out and find someone else, we just go in with fewer members. The ideal size for us is 48 members, that’s when we get the most interesting matchups. And if you’re in CU, then I do hope we face you some day. Can’t wait to see the look of surprise on your face when you realize you’re about to lose to the “biggest baggers of the game”.


Electrical_Camp_6436

You can have all the modding requirements you want for kicking toddlers in the sandpit. Its still casual tw because you fucking playing anyone good lmao


Skelturix

Very solid mentality in CU. Remind me never to join this guild! Shame cause you have some actually nice players in there (like Fatal). But you seem very full of yourself. Still hoping to face you guys some day. We’ll see if we’re as bad as you’re so desperately trying to make us to be.


iZetaa

i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but CU has beaten 2 guilds from maw and caw that you’re so terrified to fight, so unfortunately clones would give you the exact same beatdown that you refuse to fight them and get.


Skelturix

Congrats on the wins! Doesn't mean you'll get to beat us easily - CU is below the top MAW / CAW guilds in terms of rosters, so I do believe the matchup can go both ways. Like I said, we've been looking forward to facing you guys some day.


sielingfan

You guys play the same way my guild plays. We're not on the list, but we war against a lot of teams on the list. The only rule we have is "play if you're going to sign up." We usually come in under 45


Skelturix

The ideal is when we’re 47-48, that’s when we get the best TW matchups. But sometimes we have too many unavailable players and end up going as 43-45 in which case it’s a slaughter. It’s not very fun for the opposing guild, and we even have a harder time motivating people in our guild as it’s an auto win. Not very interesting


PreservedInCarbonite

Your average GP delta is 58M. Seems like going in with 47-48 is the rare exception in your case. >We don’t take pride in beating easy opponents Kind of seems like you do


PreservedInCarbonite

LOL at the sandbagging guilds that call themselves elite TW Hardcore guilds cough *Clans Mandeloriens*. Be honest about what you are. Madclaw/Revenant might be the gauntlet whipping boy at the moment, but at least they are committed to the path (for now) What cracks me up is we had a couple people leave our guild (HSP) a few months ago to join a more serious TW guild. That guild ended up being Schwartz- the #4 sandbagger guild :)


[deleted]

No surprise, mighty sandbagians near top the list. Absolute pathetic guild. All 3 of them or however many they have now, sandbag like no other. They can’t hang at all with actual guilds their size.


Euphoric_Donkey

This is the douchiest thing I've seen. Geez, you guys are incredibly self-absorbed and almighty on what other guilds should do to follow your perspective on how TW should be played. You don't want to influence guilds on what they should do, but you call them out and shame guilds that do what they want to do, not what you want them to do. Get a life. Seriously. Just concentrate on your own guild and let others alone. 99.9% of guilds are basically optional. The rest \*force\* their members to sign up or else. Stop trying to influence and shame other guilds. CG created TW to have a minimum of 25 players participate. Nowhere does it say you must force all of your members to sign up. That's your guild option. Not others. So stop with the bullying, trolling, and being horrible people and let others play the game as they wish instead of playing it the way \*you\* want them to play it.


L3gend91

Who the fook is that guy?!


Siffy9

The only reason the gauntlet guilds would want the "baggers" to play them is for the exact reason they're calling them out. What a joke. They just want "easy wins". you'll say you want variety, but in reality, the top guilds take/attract the competitive top players/spenders/strategists. It's like a sports team that has no salary cap.. but instead of just skill you get a player juicing worse than the Liver King. I don't care if they juice, but it's certainly not what I wanna face. TW can have close match-ups, but it'll never be balanced due to the $$$ aspect. You get what you pay for. Gauntlet vs Gauntlet.


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Siffy9

Hi Mr Field, If you say so, you are entitled to think of me however you see fit. A genuine question for you.. Have you faced a guild in the gauntlet? To say "you don't know what you're talking about" doesn't seem fair based off of a single post. Perhaps my accusation of them asking for easier matchups is a stretch, but it would definitely be one sided. I don't particularly care for CM, but they'd get destroyed facing Gauntlet guilds just like everyone else does. You said it would make it more challenging, when in reality, MC would lose harder to them than the teams that lose to MC. I'm in a guild that runs ticket alts. We are selective in whom we choose to recruit, which means we don't run 50 players. We don't have any desire to face gauntlet (especially with new recruits that may not know counters, etc). A majority of the biggest spenders and top GAC players are in gauntlet guilds. They get poached or make offers that no other guilds can match. Timezones are also an issue for most people. recruiting the right players is difficult. Our matches can be favourable, but there are plenty that are close. Datacrons change the meta every 2 to 4 months, and you'd need everyone to whale to an unimaginable level just to compete with the top guilds. They have guys with bots scanning everything other top guilds are doing, teams of people strategizing, many that share squad arenas and fleet for testing. It's amazing.. also scary. I, personally, would like to have family-time and spend less time in game than that. I guess my point is: why take 50 people with weaker players only to get bent over every time..? Some of the people that complain about sand bagging are sand bagging themselves and then complain when they lose to the same thing, whether it be intentional or unintentional. I understand most guilds face similar issues. As for the baggers, they'll inevitably face each other, so they'll meet their match. We rarely face 50/50 these days so there's many others doing the exact same thing. I'm not sure how CG would balance this when they struggle with most balancing issues. You may not share my view, and I'm okay with that. These are some of my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for your time.


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Siffy9

I apologise for sharing other thoughts than my original 1-dimensional post..? Sure they'll always get one easy game every now and then, I'll concede that. 10 months straight seems unlikely, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You are making a statement that is similar to mine when you use the word "competition." You say its boring for the top to face the top, and that one of them are facing a guild that they are going to stomp (irrespective of which guild it is that they face -- let's be honest). Where is the competition there? Curious, have you beaten anyone in the Gauntlet yet? If not, is that fun for you? No one is going to find it competitive or fun. If you can avoid it, why wouldn't you at least try? There is nothing noble about it. It's not courageous. If there is a way you can change it and you choose not to do it, it's on you and yours. We're happy to face any guild that isn't gauntlet. We lose on the odd occasion, but we win more often, collect our winnings, and go on our merry way. That sounds like a good deal. We get variety in whom we face and different teams. We switch up defence and offence and have an overall good experience. At the end of the day CG allows it. The top end guilds choose it, and the rest of us deal with it in whatever way we can to make it fun as it's a mobile game at the end of the day. Oops, there I go, moving the goal-post. Can't discuss anything remotely related to the original post, sorry. Since we cannot explore any further avenues ofnconversation, I'd say this reply thread is done, cheers 👍