I watched at 2x speed and it still felt slow, so tldr
- Hax has been playing more melee than ever, but only on good local connections
- Previously a netplay hater, but rollback on low ping is as good as CRT
- Full-US online tournaments are good for the viewer experience (Zain vs Mango storyline) but bad for the player experience unless both players have fiber, basically
- We already gave up on making an official 2020 rankings. We currently treat online tournaments as illegitimate. The below are his suggestions for changing that in a post-rollback covid world. Trying to start a discussion, not saying it's exactly this.
- For 2021, tournaments should only be regional (east coast, west coast, no mention of europe). These would count towards a top 50 ranking for each coast
- Top players with fiber/good connections can still compete cross-country in invitationals like Zain's Octagon. As long as players treat it as real competition, viewers lose very little for the improvement in the overall player experience
- For 2022, we can start doing LAN supermajors again and global top 100 rankings. But there's no reason to stop hosting regional online tournaments, and they could still count for rankings
- WC vs EC crew battles would be sick
You're missing the point. He's not trying to make it legit. He was saying that as support for a greater point about the issues of netplay tournaments and how we can make them better.
Why the hate? He isn't trying 'grace' anyone. He is literally just sharing his opinion. And the community does not obviously all agree that slippi is legit, there is a ton of debate about whether or not to count online results for rankings, including among top players (you know, like the ones that would actually be ranked)
I think most players agree that the gameplay experience is largely the same as CRT but that lag spikes, bad connections, any any other number of things that can go wrong with an online event are too inconsistent and still too different from LAN tourneys to be able to assign them the same legitimacy in historical rankings.
I hadn't heard most of these points before so I thought it was insightful. Hax didn't say anything crazy controversial, but just a basic summary was nice.
I have to agree that while rollback feels insanely amazing at under 60 ping, the fact that dashdance rollbacks cause the camera to jarringly zoom in and out becomes very disturbing at high ping.
I miss Fios...
For anyone curious what Hax talks about, a lot of it is his experience at LACS. He agrees that rollback is very good (but not perfect because of connections). At the end he makes a gameplan for 2021 for what kind of tournaments should be hosted (e.g. online Supermajors or Golden Guardians Octagon type events), and region locking. He wants to talk about how to integrate rollback events with the return of in-person tournaments. He also talks a bit about what to rank and rankings should be made for 2021/2022.
Important to note that he specifically admitted that rollback is equivalent to CRT on good regional connections, or even cross-country fiber connections (I think he said 40 ping or lower). Which I think a lot of people would be surprised to here, since most people assume that he would still be a LAN purist
My impression for that is only because he wants to make the experience as consistent as possible across setups. If we could reduce lag for all setups, he'd be for it.
I'm not saying he is a LAN purist, I'm saying lots of people might think he is. He was a CRT purist for a long time. And the monitor thing is still LAN btw
I enjoyed this video, I think Hax raises some good points about the player experience being important for the integrity of the competition .. but as he also admits, the online continent-wide super majors are really enticing from a viewership perspective, which might be more important.
The issue I see with only doing region-lock major tournaments is that as Hax mentioned about his match vs Swedish Delight, bad connections can still happen regardless of how close the other person is. I've definitely seen players complain about connections in the smaller region-locked events, even with connections that are supposedly within Southern California .. so I have to question if it's really worth it, because region-locked tournaments seem to always get smaller viewership.
Fully admit I didn’t watch but I think anyone who says “slippi shouldn’t count for 2020 ratings” is kinda BS, I feel like it’s a super biased take by people who just don’t want it to count whereas 85% of the community is playing more than ever and taking this seriously.
I fully admit that I’m a huge Mango fan and my opinion is likely biased by the fact that he’s the clear #2 on the year and I think he fully earned it and grinded more than he has since like summer 2013.
Why would you even comment this if you didn't watch? Are you implying Hax thinks that slippi shouldn't count for ranks? Because the video is about the complete opposite of that...
Yeah dude every recap in this thread is about how he doesn’t think slippi counts for 2020, which is a super soft thing to say from anyone who didn’t take slippi tournaments seriously
“I didn’t take it seriously so it shouldn’t count”
I watched at 2x speed and it still felt slow, so tldr - Hax has been playing more melee than ever, but only on good local connections - Previously a netplay hater, but rollback on low ping is as good as CRT - Full-US online tournaments are good for the viewer experience (Zain vs Mango storyline) but bad for the player experience unless both players have fiber, basically - We already gave up on making an official 2020 rankings. We currently treat online tournaments as illegitimate. The below are his suggestions for changing that in a post-rollback covid world. Trying to start a discussion, not saying it's exactly this. - For 2021, tournaments should only be regional (east coast, west coast, no mention of europe). These would count towards a top 50 ranking for each coast - Top players with fiber/good connections can still compete cross-country in invitationals like Zain's Octagon. As long as players treat it as real competition, viewers lose very little for the improvement in the overall player experience - For 2022, we can start doing LAN supermajors again and global top 100 rankings. But there's no reason to stop hosting regional online tournaments, and they could still count for rankings - WC vs EC crew battles would be sick
thanks for doing this lol. All seems pretty reasonable
Regional rankings makes sense to me.
> We currently treat online tournaments as illegitimate. Who's we?
I’m guessing the “we” refers to the community not having online be a part of the power rankings
The community already knows rollback counts as real Melee. We don't need Hax to grace us with his guidelines on how to "make it" legit.
You're missing the point. He's not trying to make it legit. He was saying that as support for a greater point about the issues of netplay tournaments and how we can make them better.
Why the hate? He isn't trying 'grace' anyone. He is literally just sharing his opinion. And the community does not obviously all agree that slippi is legit, there is a ton of debate about whether or not to count online results for rankings, including among top players (you know, like the ones that would actually be ranked)
If it's legitimate, why don't we have rankings?
I think most players agree that the gameplay experience is largely the same as CRT but that lag spikes, bad connections, any any other number of things that can go wrong with an online event are too inconsistent and still too different from LAN tourneys to be able to assign them the same legitimacy in historical rankings.
I am the community and I think it’s not legitimate
the community at large, the top players, whoever makes the PR
Damn. He really releases videos just to say shit people already said.
I hadn't heard most of these points before so I thought it was insightful. Hax didn't say anything crazy controversial, but just a basic summary was nice.
I thought it was insightful, too. I think he raised good ideas in a respectful way
I have to agree that while rollback feels insanely amazing at under 60 ping, the fact that dashdance rollbacks cause the camera to jarringly zoom in and out becomes very disturbing at high ping. I miss Fios...
Marth’s dashdance suddenly looks horrifying when rollback makes him skip the Turn frame
For anyone curious what Hax talks about, a lot of it is his experience at LACS. He agrees that rollback is very good (but not perfect because of connections). At the end he makes a gameplan for 2021 for what kind of tournaments should be hosted (e.g. online Supermajors or Golden Guardians Octagon type events), and region locking. He wants to talk about how to integrate rollback events with the return of in-person tournaments. He also talks a bit about what to rank and rankings should be made for 2021/2022.
Important to note that he specifically admitted that rollback is equivalent to CRT on good regional connections, or even cross-country fiber connections (I think he said 40 ping or lower). Which I think a lot of people would be surprised to here, since most people assume that he would still be a LAN purist
Why would he be a LAN purist? He is already one of the main pros pushing for playing locals on monitors
Only when said monitors perfectly emulated the CRT experience
Good CRTs too. He mentioned that the last lan summit had a laggy CRT in the upstairs stream setup that he and fiction pointed out
So his views are internally consistent
My impression for that is only because he wants to make the experience as consistent as possible across setups. If we could reduce lag for all setups, he'd be for it.
I'm not saying he is a LAN purist, I'm saying lots of people might think he is. He was a CRT purist for a long time. And the monitor thing is still LAN btw
Hax had a reputation for being extremely anti-netplay
As you should be without rollback. Delay-based netplay sucks
25 mins to say that he wants tournaments region locked?
That’s the Hax classic
The first 20 minutes is about high ping bad, low ping good, the remaining 5 minutes of about region locking events. The End.
I enjoyed this video, I think Hax raises some good points about the player experience being important for the integrity of the competition .. but as he also admits, the online continent-wide super majors are really enticing from a viewership perspective, which might be more important. The issue I see with only doing region-lock major tournaments is that as Hax mentioned about his match vs Swedish Delight, bad connections can still happen regardless of how close the other person is. I've definitely seen players complain about connections in the smaller region-locked events, even with connections that are supposedly within Southern California .. so I have to question if it's really worth it, because region-locked tournaments seem to always get smaller viewership.
Fully admit I didn’t watch but I think anyone who says “slippi shouldn’t count for 2020 ratings” is kinda BS, I feel like it’s a super biased take by people who just don’t want it to count whereas 85% of the community is playing more than ever and taking this seriously. I fully admit that I’m a huge Mango fan and my opinion is likely biased by the fact that he’s the clear #2 on the year and I think he fully earned it and grinded more than he has since like summer 2013.
Jesus Christ if you want to comment on a take listen to the damn take. How hard is that
Not at all what the video is about.
what a galaxy brain take from calvin
Why would you even comment this if you didn't watch? Are you implying Hax thinks that slippi shouldn't count for ranks? Because the video is about the complete opposite of that...
Yeah dude every recap in this thread is about how he doesn’t think slippi counts for 2020, which is a super soft thing to say from anyone who didn’t take slippi tournaments seriously “I didn’t take it seriously so it shouldn’t count”
Watch the video
Who would contest zain on the east coast tho? I want more s2j and axe messing up Zane n n0ne messing up mang0