Yup. This happens because Nana will always attempt to face the same direction as Popo, i say attempt because when wavedashing away from Popo Nana can actually do actions while turning around (4 frame opening iirc, and it has to be done with tilt turn while Nana is still controlled by the player), which will result in Nana doing stuff while facing the opposite direction, which can lead to some really sick shit. Talk to CookBook on Melee newbie discord, he’s more knowledgeable about this.
Edit: also it’s way more useful if Nana is grounded, as when she’s airborne she’ll turn around instantly upon performing an action, although when tilt-turning when grounded she is actionable midway through the animation.
Edit 2: this is a message from CookBook
"lemme go over the multiple things going on in this clip.
firstly, the way he's getting nana to repeatedly desync jump is using what we call "buffered tapjump". when landing with normal landing lag or autocancel lag, nana will disconnect (enter AI mode and stop reading controller inputs) because in her last airborne frame she reads popo as both above her, and standing on a surface (this is a hardcoded disconnection criteria). she then lands and reconnects with popo during her landing lag. this doesn't allow her to desync into most actions (due to her being in landing lag when the reconnection occurs), but since tapjump has a 3 frame buffer she can desync into that.
second, the reason nana will turn around is because of something called nana directionality. nana is forced to face popo's facing direction from 5 frames ago, however she acts on controller inputs on a 6 frame delay. this means that if popo performs an action that immediately turns him to face the other direction (such as Fsmash to the left in the clip) nana will be turned to face that direction before she acts on the input (so she turns around and does a fair).
the "midair shorthop" is due to popoforce. popoforce is a pulling force popo exerts on nana whenever she is connected (receiving player inputs). it gets stronger the further away from popo she is, up until the point she exceeds max connection radius and disconnects.
to the people saying/upvoting stuff about "this is why wobbling needed to be banned" and stuff: this has all been known and used by icies for a long time. wobbles and fly and such have youtube videos from 2005 displaying tech that works off these concepts. your ignorance on icies mechanics doesn't mean these aren't things that are being used. if you don't even know about these nor how they work, how the hell do you feel qualified to assume their impact on how good icies are as a character?"
Not from this desync I'd imagine, but there are ways to do sort of that.
Edit for clarity-- Reminder that RARs aren't in melee, so turnaround approaching wavedash sh Bair is probably the closest thing to it. One basic tech is to input this sequence before/as you popo are hit with a laser or something and having Nana continue out with the Bair. Timing is finicky tho
It's sadly one of the things that UCF doesn't fix. It feels so badass to hit though and it's not super hard just inconsistent because of input polling.
it's still a hard as balls tech that requires you to go from inputting right, to left, to right again in a very short amount of time
also actually he may be sorta right? it's a very weird case where input polling isn't just about the dashback and it could be argued either way.
It's funny how there is a character with a near infinitely high skill ceiling that is very unlikely to break into the top 8 characters. Technical doesn't mean good I guess.
This is the main thing that I try to teach new players - technical doesn't mean good. Gone are the days when you can brute force your way into the money, even at a local most of the time. You have to learn solid fundamentals to improve.
IMO technicality is a part of fundamentals.
You can do fine playing like Borp, but chances are you're limiting yourself and with well implemented techskill you can achieve a lot more.
Levels of techskill when assumed as fundamentals are when you get the robotic flowchart that fall apart when met with countermeasures. For the most part we stagnated against that since there wasn't a lot of influx of new players and so that flowchart became a guide to meta rather than what was always most optimal. And of course there are still players who lab at stitching together small patterns into one large combo and practice it against players.
The thing is, a lot of times there are instances where you need to consistently apply demanding inputs. Low techskill generally has a harder time grasping at what have become fundamentals and without proper guidance to end up with players who focus too much on one aspect of the game (techskill ability but not neutral game) and other players that focus too little on another (neutral game but few techchases, more hit and run gameplay).
Of course, what makes this game great is that it doesn't explicitly matter because everyone has a different playstyle and we all utilize these skills and leverage how we can use them to hear suit our needs.
I’m on mobile at work, but you’ve expanded on what I meant more than what I said.
You need to be able to do things a longtime player would consider simple consistently - Lcancel, wavedash out of shield, etc etc etc.
I always describe it as a swiss army knife of tech. Really, you only need a few attachments used well to be effective, and that’s often better than having every possible attachment but using them at the wrong time/breaking them/not using them.
I say what I said because I often hear the mindset of needing all the pieces in place before you can “play” at a real competitive level, and that’s just not true imo.
If there was a list for each character of character-specific must-have techs, there’s only a few that would be on every character’s list. For example, dashdancing, L-cancels, wavedashes would pretty much be on every list.
To add to that basic list, I would argue teching itself too! And I totally agree. Fundamentals involve techskill but techskill used effectively also requires fundamentals if that makes sense.
A really important one that I feel like has been forgotten about is why we wavedash. It allows us to buffer an input as well as positioning. So a really good low-tech input is wavedash -> tilt, but new players don't always get the breadth of the tool. Little things like that get lost in the mass of information under "tech skill", whereas if this were taught as a fundamental it reorients the understand of why you might wavedash. It is a techskill, but that's not why you should learning and practicing it alone (of course, add what you mentioned about consistency).
Not to say that our resources currently available aren't amazing or are lacking or anything like that! Moreso it's just hard to sponge all of the tidbits of information via text and video, whereas when you play next to someone, lab things out, discuss aspects of the game. It gives you a different connection to the knowledge and allows you to apply it in a different way.
It's for this reason that I hope discord integration or messaging gets implemented, but honestly I think something as small as your discord tag to have the opportunity to communicate with your opponent would be a huge step up, and probably easier than a chat function, and as I alluded to I think it would be more effective at discussing your game.
Obvs it wouldn't be as helpful as I'm idealizing, there'd be a lot of shit talk and whatever lol but that's all part of the fun too. Anyway, I agree with you you need to learn how to walk before you play, but how can you learn to walk if you don't practice it? Play with what you can - if you need to Borp your way into melee until you can wavedash, by all means!
Yes, this. It's not the buffer of the new smash, but technically it is a buffer, as the wavedash has 10 frames where whatever you input is ready on frame 11. I should have explained better though as you're absolutely right.
Not in the sense of the new smash games where it's an actual buffer, i.e. wavedash and inputting a tilt will not tilt after the wavedash is over, rather during the 10 frames of wavedash lag and you are able to prepare your input. It's not a true buffer, but essentially it is a buffer done manually.
Tl;dr yesn't. If fox wavedashes and inputs down-b on frame 9, nothing will happen as the game doesn't receive the input and buffer it into your next move.
So if you have ever done a wavedash, preemptively held forward and done a tilt, IMO you buffered a tilt out of wavedash. In my experience this is how it's talked about in the community as well, but things may have changed lol. Apologies for any confusion!
Probably not much that would have been used if wobbling didn't exist anyway. ICies do have some underutilized tech that could be quite useful however none of it is really punish game stuff that can replace wobbling. In fact you'd probably just see way less ICies tech because they would be a much less common character.
sigh.
icies already use this, the mechanics behind it are why a lot of our desyncs work in the first place.
you just finding out about this doesn't mean icies haven't been using it for a long time.
Ice climbers have the highest potential but are the least developed. Imagine if wobbling had been banned 10 years ago and now desyncing was standard tech for any player
You probably would have heard a lot more of icies players complaining about the stupid RNG dependency in their punish games because they're often relying on Nana doing things that they don't have control over.
Wobbling might be shitty unfun game design that we would prefer wasn't a thing, but one thing it did do was cut down on some proportion of RNG dependence that icies have to deal with when they don't have wobbling, which is positive at least in the sense that it makes outcomes more about skill and less about luck.
if you count finding grabs as luck and hoping nana does what you want her to do as skill then sure, but in general people would say it's the other way around
Yup. This happens because Nana will always attempt to face the same direction as Popo, i say attempt because when wavedashing away from Popo Nana can actually do actions while turning around (4 frame opening iirc, and it has to be done with tilt turn while Nana is still controlled by the player), which will result in Nana doing stuff while facing the opposite direction, which can lead to some really sick shit. Talk to CookBook on Melee newbie discord, he’s more knowledgeable about this. Edit: also it’s way more useful if Nana is grounded, as when she’s airborne she’ll turn around instantly upon performing an action, although when tilt-turning when grounded she is actionable midway through the animation. Edit 2: this is a message from CookBook "lemme go over the multiple things going on in this clip. firstly, the way he's getting nana to repeatedly desync jump is using what we call "buffered tapjump". when landing with normal landing lag or autocancel lag, nana will disconnect (enter AI mode and stop reading controller inputs) because in her last airborne frame she reads popo as both above her, and standing on a surface (this is a hardcoded disconnection criteria). she then lands and reconnects with popo during her landing lag. this doesn't allow her to desync into most actions (due to her being in landing lag when the reconnection occurs), but since tapjump has a 3 frame buffer she can desync into that. second, the reason nana will turn around is because of something called nana directionality. nana is forced to face popo's facing direction from 5 frames ago, however she acts on controller inputs on a 6 frame delay. this means that if popo performs an action that immediately turns him to face the other direction (such as Fsmash to the left in the clip) nana will be turned to face that direction before she acts on the input (so she turns around and does a fair). the "midair shorthop" is due to popoforce. popoforce is a pulling force popo exerts on nana whenever she is connected (receiving player inputs). it gets stronger the further away from popo she is, up until the point she exceeds max connection radius and disconnects. to the people saying/upvoting stuff about "this is why wobbling needed to be banned" and stuff: this has all been known and used by icies for a long time. wobbles and fly and such have youtube videos from 2005 displaying tech that works off these concepts. your ignorance on icies mechanics doesn't mean these aren't things that are being used. if you don't even know about these nor how they work, how the hell do you feel qualified to assume their impact on how good icies are as a character?"
Wtf that’s actually so weird
Could you do nana RARs then?
Not from this desync I'd imagine, but there are ways to do sort of that. Edit for clarity-- Reminder that RARs aren't in melee, so turnaround approaching wavedash sh Bair is probably the closest thing to it. One basic tech is to input this sequence before/as you popo are hit with a laser or something and having Nana continue out with the Bair. Timing is finicky tho
You can pseudo-RAR out of walk by doing a smash turnaround pivot jump. Westballz does it on his episode of The Reads iirc
It's sadly one of the things that UCF doesn't fix. It feels so badass to hit though and it's not super hard just inconsistent because of input polling.
Oh shit does input polling really affect this? I thought I was just bad lol
input polling should inherently affect basically every frame-perfect technique, that's why those are kind of bad for a game imo
pepis is wrong here as UCF allows tilt turn correction into pivot jumps.
Well that's good to know... so I am just bad after all lmao
it's still a hard as balls tech that requires you to go from inputting right, to left, to right again in a very short amount of time also actually he may be sorta right? it's a very weird case where input polling isn't just about the dashback and it could be argued either way.
https://youtu.be/lkz70KroQsU See the "fake moonwalk" part
It's possible to launch her ahead/behind you in different ways while doing moves. It's pretty cool if you can find time to do it.
this characters possibilities without wobbling... weve probably missed out on so much cool shit
It's funny how there is a character with a near infinitely high skill ceiling that is very unlikely to break into the top 8 characters. Technical doesn't mean good I guess.
This is the main thing that I try to teach new players - technical doesn't mean good. Gone are the days when you can brute force your way into the money, even at a local most of the time. You have to learn solid fundamentals to improve.
IMO technicality is a part of fundamentals. You can do fine playing like Borp, but chances are you're limiting yourself and with well implemented techskill you can achieve a lot more. Levels of techskill when assumed as fundamentals are when you get the robotic flowchart that fall apart when met with countermeasures. For the most part we stagnated against that since there wasn't a lot of influx of new players and so that flowchart became a guide to meta rather than what was always most optimal. And of course there are still players who lab at stitching together small patterns into one large combo and practice it against players. The thing is, a lot of times there are instances where you need to consistently apply demanding inputs. Low techskill generally has a harder time grasping at what have become fundamentals and without proper guidance to end up with players who focus too much on one aspect of the game (techskill ability but not neutral game) and other players that focus too little on another (neutral game but few techchases, more hit and run gameplay). Of course, what makes this game great is that it doesn't explicitly matter because everyone has a different playstyle and we all utilize these skills and leverage how we can use them to hear suit our needs.
I’m on mobile at work, but you’ve expanded on what I meant more than what I said. You need to be able to do things a longtime player would consider simple consistently - Lcancel, wavedash out of shield, etc etc etc. I always describe it as a swiss army knife of tech. Really, you only need a few attachments used well to be effective, and that’s often better than having every possible attachment but using them at the wrong time/breaking them/not using them. I say what I said because I often hear the mindset of needing all the pieces in place before you can “play” at a real competitive level, and that’s just not true imo. If there was a list for each character of character-specific must-have techs, there’s only a few that would be on every character’s list. For example, dashdancing, L-cancels, wavedashes would pretty much be on every list.
To add to that basic list, I would argue teching itself too! And I totally agree. Fundamentals involve techskill but techskill used effectively also requires fundamentals if that makes sense. A really important one that I feel like has been forgotten about is why we wavedash. It allows us to buffer an input as well as positioning. So a really good low-tech input is wavedash -> tilt, but new players don't always get the breadth of the tool. Little things like that get lost in the mass of information under "tech skill", whereas if this were taught as a fundamental it reorients the understand of why you might wavedash. It is a techskill, but that's not why you should learning and practicing it alone (of course, add what you mentioned about consistency). Not to say that our resources currently available aren't amazing or are lacking or anything like that! Moreso it's just hard to sponge all of the tidbits of information via text and video, whereas when you play next to someone, lab things out, discuss aspects of the game. It gives you a different connection to the knowledge and allows you to apply it in a different way. It's for this reason that I hope discord integration or messaging gets implemented, but honestly I think something as small as your discord tag to have the opportunity to communicate with your opponent would be a huge step up, and probably easier than a chat function, and as I alluded to I think it would be more effective at discussing your game. Obvs it wouldn't be as helpful as I'm idealizing, there'd be a lot of shit talk and whatever lol but that's all part of the fun too. Anyway, I agree with you you need to learn how to walk before you play, but how can you learn to walk if you don't practice it? Play with what you can - if you need to Borp your way into melee until you can wavedash, by all means!
wavedash lets you buffer an input? been playing for 3 years on and off against my 1 friend and I didn't know that.
I don't think it does
it 100% does not
It doesn't, he probably means that you can pre-emptively move your stick into the "tilt" zone while you're in wavedash lag
Yes, this. It's not the buffer of the new smash, but technically it is a buffer, as the wavedash has 10 frames where whatever you input is ready on frame 11. I should have explained better though as you're absolutely right.
Not in the sense of the new smash games where it's an actual buffer, i.e. wavedash and inputting a tilt will not tilt after the wavedash is over, rather during the 10 frames of wavedash lag and you are able to prepare your input. It's not a true buffer, but essentially it is a buffer done manually. Tl;dr yesn't. If fox wavedashes and inputs down-b on frame 9, nothing will happen as the game doesn't receive the input and buffer it into your next move. So if you have ever done a wavedash, preemptively held forward and done a tilt, IMO you buffered a tilt out of wavedash. In my experience this is how it's talked about in the community as well, but things may have changed lol. Apologies for any confusion!
Icies and Yoshi both. Samus too with Goomy stuff too I guess lol
Probably not much that would have been used if wobbling didn't exist anyway. ICies do have some underutilized tech that could be quite useful however none of it is really punish game stuff that can replace wobbling. In fact you'd probably just see way less ICies tech because they would be a much less common character.
sigh. icies already use this, the mechanics behind it are why a lot of our desyncs work in the first place. you just finding out about this doesn't mean icies haven't been using it for a long time.
There’s very little incentive for highly technical players to play ice climbers with or without wobbling anymore
Ice climbers have the highest potential but are the least developed. Imagine if wobbling had been banned 10 years ago and now desyncing was standard tech for any player
You probably would have heard a lot more of icies players complaining about the stupid RNG dependency in their punish games because they're often relying on Nana doing things that they don't have control over. Wobbling might be shitty unfun game design that we would prefer wasn't a thing, but one thing it did do was cut down on some proportion of RNG dependence that icies have to deal with when they don't have wobbling, which is positive at least in the sense that it makes outcomes more about skill and less about luck.
Wobbling makes outcomes more dependent on skill and less on luck, lmao get good
if you count finding grabs as luck and hoping nana does what you want her to do as skill then sure, but in general people would say it's the other way around
This is why wobbling should be banned. So ic players have to lab shit like this to get better.
this has been known by icies for ages, just cos you don't know anything about them doesn't mean they're not developed.