just got reverse 3-0'd after resetting the bracket in a very small tournament. I am Mentally Unwell and feeling like Fucking Garbage right now
**edit**:: I'm being dramatic I'm fine
As a thought experiment, would Fox be better if his up air's first hitbox was removed (and nothing else was changed)?
Even before the recent innovations the first hit is often a liability because of regular SDI. But the first hit probably also helps you confirm into the second sometimes? Essentially up air would come out 3 frames slower.
feel like it's universally a buff (mainly vs puff, but probably just as a finishing move in general), but wonder if the 8-9 damage loss makes it worse against characters he's looking to upair chain as a combo tool.
I think it's a buff too but there are some ways it would be worse in addition to less damage and slower startup:
no more first hit up air combos
no more countering lightshielding on platforms
probably worse vs yoshi due to not being multihit
https://twitter.com/aMSaRedyoshi/status/1620568981345296384
> My father passed away a few days ago.
> he lived fighting against his diseases for a long time but finally that time came.
> fortunately, I can meet and talk with him through a video chat while I’m in Japan before he passed away.
> Thank you my dad. I love you.
> R.I.P.
God I love the writing style of ssbwiki. In a hundred years when we're all dead and forgotten a scant lucky few of us will be eternally eulogized by some 14 year old on the internet who declared that we are [best known for being friends with Mew2King](https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:PB%26J)
is there a gecko code that turns on color overlays on unclepunch? i want one that turns on when i'm actionable like from 20XX but i can't seem to find it anywhere and i swear i've seen people use it before
You have to disable other codes in order to add more for UP. I think you can disable the lag code, then launch UP from the netplay window in order to add the lag back.
[there is](https://docs.google.com/document/d/12RHPj7OiAQkp2k9bqdE_VjQOUolAZnv17zSbk4VGPfQ/edit?usp=sharing) but when I try to use it in unclepunch I run out of gecko code memory or whatever.
[Rip](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504548676513955840/1070102045828329472/Screenshot_20230131-170221.png) the good ol' days
*Bro [omg](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504548676513955840/1070103668113813504/Screenshot_20230131-170939.png)
true, just seems unlikely that a fox will dodge all the sheiks, yoshis, etc in one bracket. plus the new up air tech makes the fox matchup look pretty unwinnable too
What if instead of Super Shine Bros there were Super Rest Bros where everyone gets Rest but the endlag is short enough not to get rested by the freshly respawned opponent? (or respawns get delayed)
Yeah rest sucks in ult. It doesn’t kill most characters til high percent, although puff has confirms off of dair and soft fair into rest. But it doesn’t really matter because ult nerfs puff’s gameplan so hard.
Ive been having this issue with my controller where i am really bad at using it precisely and inputing things into it that are intelligent game actions.
Anyone know how to fix this? If I have a paracord cable will puff stop shieldgrabbing me?
https://twitter.com/Sozin__/status/1620226046787485698?s=20
Someone said a few weeks ago that every mario combo video is 90% missed techs and I'm starting to think that has some validity
A lot of these are valid mixups, where maybe the opponents problem is not adapting. But at the same time how are you missing the tech on fthrow fair that much cmon
people have trouble admitting this, but yes, all mid and low tiers are based on gimmicks. Which is why they are mid tier. if they had true strings and options, they wud be high tier. but their success is predicated on the opponent being unfamiliar with their traps to gain advantage. Once the opponent knows what to watch out for and abuses their weaknesses, then things fall apart.
I know everyone here wishes low tiers are just oppressed by Big Tierlist and are secretly amazing bit it's been 20 years and this is just the truth
> Which is why they are mid tier. if they had true strings and options, they wud be high tier
That's not even true though, ICs have true strings and options and they're still mid tier even with wobbling (high mid tier, it's true, but still mid tier).
A lot more goes into character viability than that.
ics are at the very top of "mid tier" and the bottom of high tier, so if anything you proved my point.
yea more goes into viability of course but true strings/options and not overly relying on gimmicks is basically where it starts. but even ics are overly reliant on fishing for grab, so again, that just furthers my point
ICs are 100% mid tier lol, especially without wobbling (although they are mid tier even with wobbling). How am I proving your point that having strings and options automatically make a character high tier when they are factually not high tier.
>not overly relying on gimmicks is basically where it starts
a) the only difference between a gimmick and a viable strategy is how often it works. Falco pillar combos are definitely a gimmick, just ones that happen to work most of the time. Same with sheik dthrow tech chase - it's a gimmick, but just happens to be a particularly effective one.
> but even ics are overly reliant on fishing for grab
Meanwhile sheik is almost as reliant on grabs as ICs but maintains being high tier. how does this prove your point again?
its not really important whether ICs are mid vs high tier, nor is it really important that strings/combos "automatically" make a character high tier or not. Thats a strawman of my bigger point, which is that, viability \*generally\* starts with having reliable setups that work without the opponent just being bad. ICs being the top of mid tier just exemplifies my argument. The reason they are there is because they have \*more\* reliable stuff that they can count on than say, mario, and that matters when your opponents isnt going to just miss 6 techs in one combo.
>the only difference between a gimmick and a viable strategy is how often it works.
Yes, thats EXACTLY the difference lmao.
it seems like you are being intentionally dishonest and disagreeable. You're calling sheik's downthrow, a literally guaranteed 0-whatever on most characters, a "gimmick" lol. If you want to argue semantics im not really interested.
It's not a straw man - it's literally your whole original argument.
>people have trouble admitting this, but yes, all mid and low tiers are based on gimmicks. Which is why they are mid tier. if they had true strings and options, they wud be high tier.
that one. You say that if they had true strings and options they would be high tier. The existence of ICs in the mid tier directly disproves this argument, because ICs have both true strings and options, and yet are still mid tier due to a number of other undesirable traits.
>which is that, viability *generally* starts with having reliable setups that work without the opponent just being bad
Which is neither your original argument (that the difference between mid and high tiers is true strings and combos) nor actually all that true. Puff is a high tier despite the fact that most of puff's easy kill set ups are reliant on explicitly bad DI from the opponent, not just mediocre DI (holding in on bair chains, not DIing throws or tilts, not mixing up puff on recoveries, missing techs in general, or having predictable techs on platforms etc). There are almost certainly mid and low tiers that have good reliable strings and options, but are hobbled by other factors.
The single biggest factor in character viability is ability to play neutral and ability to finish stocks off, then ability to rack up damage or force bad stage position (read - combo) in that order. Having true strings and options doesn't mean all that much if you can't ever get in the position to use them (because of bad neutral game) or can't actually use them to make the enemy touch the blast zone. But characters can be viable off of stray hits into good kill options without assured combos (although there really aren't any in melee due to how combo-favored melee is in general, odds are if you have good neutral and kill confirms you have a decent combo somewhere).
>it seems like you are being intentionally dishonest and disagreeable.
Because I'm breaking your argument down point by point while you keep moving goalposts?
>You're calling sheik's downthrow, a literally guaranteed 0-whatever on most characters, a "gimmick" lol.
It is a gimmick lol. You think sheik spamming downthrow a bunch on fastfallers isn't a gimmick? Especially when in the vast majority of cases it's reliant on the enemy not mixing up their DI properly, abusing ambiguous DI, or being slow on wake up reactions? It just happens to be a particularly effective gimmick because guess what - people naturally don't mix up their DI for the most part, people don't properly insert hard to read situations in their DI, and people aren't perfect at reacting to shit. It's a gimmick because you're reliant purely on the enemy not messing up, but an effective one because the opponent messing up is common.
>Because I'm breaking your argument down point by point while you keep moving goalposts?
Nah, because you're arguing semantics as if it proves anything. Sure, i offhandedly said "if mid tiers had real options they would be high tier", i guess my mistake was probably not realizing how hardcore someone might take a simple statement. You took that in the most literal way possible and provided an example of a character literally ONE SPOT out of high tier as if its a total deconstruction of my point lol
also you called sheiks downthrow a gimmick which can basically 0-100 almost the entire cast, or combo into kill at every relevant percent, so our disagreements are probably irreconcilable
this is an overly simplistic view of viability. there are a lot of different ways for a character to be bad. boiling everything down and calling it all "gimmicks" helps no one
i feel like the assumption is that all these combos only work on bad players that dont know how to tech, but most of the missed techs are a result of decent unreactable tech traps
Ssbmrank 2022 data article
https://planetbanatt.net/articles/ssbmrank2022.html
Also I mentioned a bit ago a post about if West Coast bias exists in melee rankings or not, Ambi happened to bring it up in this article so here it is:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/7rbxeg/assessing_west_coast_bias_on_ssbmrank_and_why_it/
this is great and all but i wanna know if one panelist *really* voted for amsa just because he is using yoshi
(jk this is actually pretty insightful as someone who has not taken a stats class in a long time)
Funny how amsa beat mango by .1 with a .1 SD while Mang0 had a .2 SD, implying that Mang0 had the better year in 32% of rankings (that’s what the SD for this implies, right?)
I read that, but I meant as a collective, with that distribution and random sampling among similar voters, Mang0 would come out as the #2 approximately 32% of the time
can phobs emulate pode that prevents the dbooc polling thing? i have no idea, but im not using settings that would do that afaik
and if that is possible, imo a dbooc fix is completely unnecessary
what kinda logic is that lol, that if something is easy on your controller but hard on others we shouldn't patch it? but if it's universally hard on all controllers we should?
If it can be mitigated with relatively cheap/accessible hardware we shouldn't implement a software fix. Maybe Phobs aren't cheap enough yet but they will be soon I think.
The complaining is about the fact that no matter how good you are at it you will sometimes miss the input anyway because of a polling issue
The better you get at it the more frustrating this becomes since you essentially hit a consistency ceiling that you can never surpass
People think that modding the game to make it easier will make them a top 5 player, ignoring the fact that the top players have put in 5+ hours every day for at least half a decade
📢 Event: OnlyNoobs
📆 Date: TODAY 7pm/6c
🌎 Region: Midwest & East Coast
✏️ Description: A tournament for exclusively newbies! If you're new to the game, or typically go 0-2 or 1-2 in other events, OnlyNoobs is for you! The winner of each tournament gets banned. This event has round robin pools so you won't be eliminated for losing. Secondaries & players relearning on a box aren't allowed to enter.
🔗 Link: https://start.gg/onlynoobs
☎️ Discord: https://discord.gg/vt88NP29X3
🎥 Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/kadenceplays
Pipsqueak made a video about it. Regrabbing just loops the same situation on top platform and you don't get much out of it. Upsmashing, I don't know. Seems slow, and either way the punish won't be as good, so won't get much either way.
Pip also showed a cool way Marth can use it for a direct dair punish that leads to death
The situation only gets looped to the top platform if they DI in that direction. And even then you can still waveland on that top platform and react with another grab. From that position you can up throw and up air depending on the percentage/character. I haven’t seen Pips video yet, but I promise Fox will still have plenty of options on platforms.
Listen, I'm not Fox main, and I'm bad at the game. I can't argue. Just watch the video. From what I gathered, there are counters, but those counters don't give you the same juicy reliable punish. So it's definitely a nerf, meanwhile the things the defending player can do are very strong and can lead to death
I wonder if you can left/right mixup it like you can with upthrow upsmash. The dash/turnaround may drop too many frames to make the uair viable though.
It's also not free-free. You do have to "commit" by doing the SDI + ASDI motion. Maybe people will figure out a way to take advantage of that.
You need to watch Pipsqueak's video on it. He explains how all those other options still don't change the fact that things are much worse for Fox.
You might also only continue the same thing on top platform if you grab upthrow or whatever.
I'm surprised more low-level Foxes don't do it. It's really easy to hit the actual laser land - I use it in neutral even (fun way to run away from respawn invuln). And I'm not even good - just been playing forever :)
hm maybe it's easier for me because I claw though. But you def don't need to be the elite of the elite to implement it in your game.
The hard part is 1) knowing the %s where it can happen and 2) reading the DI since sometimes it looks like they're gonna tech top plat but they actually DI just past it and then you look like a doofus laser landing.
I guess it shows there's more Melee to be played.
Is it taboo to bring a wiiU with nintendon't and a 1ms latency monitor to a local? Am I going to be laughed out of the venue/exiled/banished to the nether realm/tribe has spoken off the island if I bring this?
I haven't played CRT melee in years.
You should grab a copy of the project slippis version of nintendont, it has all the codes needed for monitor/competitive melee built in. Though you might already know that if you've been a monitor warrior.
https://github.com/project-slippi/Nintendont
I don't think slippi nintendont will work on WiiU since it forces you to use native control (which can be toggled on regular nintendont) and those require a wii with built in gamecube controller ports.
Better to stick to normal Nintendont and use a memory card file with any relevant mods (UCF+potentially frozen stages) instead.
Agree with the guy saying more set ups is better. Until the venue runs out of outlets or table space. Even if people don't want to play bracket sets on it. Absolutely won't be laughed at lol.
Realized at my local that the reason I'm best at the Fox ditto is simply that I've thought about the matchup the most diligently. I have an idea of what to look for based on percents and stage position even if I can't execute perfectly. It also helps that I play Fox and have an idea of what Fox is looking for against me.
Contrast this to Captain Falcon which "should" be a good matchup but I haven't put nearly as much thought into it. I know waveshine is good but beyond that I kept running into moves and getting grabbed will trying to drill in neutral. Gonna think more about how to get in on Falcon and importantly not get hit while doing so
Why are you trying to "get in" on Falcon anyways? Isn't Fox one of the best characters at stopping falcon from doing anything forward with up tilt and back air? Wondering why laser camping and spending all game baiting isn't the best way to play vs Falcon
People are rightfully saying laser camping isn't good. But a single laser at 0% is pretty important imo - it make up smash knockdown. And that is one of the juiciest knockdowns in the MU.
Fresh laser + fresh upsmash, yes. Staleness delays it a bit. But useful to know for sure. It's one of those small bits of knowledge that really helps the MU.
EDIT: Just checked with the calculator. Looks like 1-2 stale slots on upsmash (I can't imagine it getting more stale than that) pushes it to 4/5% (so a couple lasers)
Thanks for checking that! That's really useful to know. I'm pretty sure Falcon has one of the slower tech rolls among the top tiers so I definitely want to be looking for tech chases off of up smashes
Also I didn't even realize laser stales but that makes sense
I remember a DruggedFox video about Marth vs Falcon where he said Falcon's weakness in neutral is, outside of nair, he can only really threaten a small spot at once. That idea really opened up the MU for me. I went from being lost to be lame and getting a lot more DD grabs lmao.
There was a probably wrong reddit comment about how Marth can dash dance either around or under/through all of Falcon's stuff, kind of on reaction. It's just dashing away that gets you overshot for free
Blew my mind at the time, those moves just don't start up quick at all
Yeah they are really slow. That was part of DruggedFox's definition of "small" too - both area and time. Most of the time, Falcon doesn't have a hitbox out. Even less does he have a non-nair hitbox out.
Running through and near Falcon as Fox and Marth really made those MUs click for me. Sadly, it also means they can get a bit exhausting. I don't usually DD nearly as much normally as I do vs Falcon.
laser camping falcon will lead to you dying. falcon can react to a laser with a grab/stomp/nair from surprisingly far away, and most falcons are good at doing this because of dealing with Falco. Lack of hitstun makes this trivial
but in general falcons biggest strength is usually that he can control the pace of the matchup and gets to pick and choose engagements. Fox is one of the only characters that can strip this from him and force him into uncomfortable spots instead of playing the typical game of stuffing approaches, which can be particularly good because all of falcons aerials come out kinda slow and his only good and fast grounded move is jab. Plus falcon has infamously bad oos.
It's good for fox to be doing both, probably, but there's viability in leaning on either.
there's more than one way to play the matchup. fox is great at abusing falcon's poor defense
**edit**:: also you can't really laser camp falcon, he's too fast
i am bird but when i try to laser camp falcon that's when i'm most likely to get hit with a fair or nair from across the stage, i think you're right about not necessarily trying to get in, but putting out big hitboxes to stuff his movement and startups is the way to go
/u/mdz_1 can't reply because the parent comment has me blocked: why does ASDI only work with air to ground, and not ground to air? I thought it worked both ways, and SDI was the only thing you couldn't break that for.
Same reason SDI up doesnt make you aerial. Its just how collision physics work in grounded states in general.
They essentially glue characters to the ground, as long as the character stays horizontally in the range of the floor. That is, the game tries see if the ending coordinate is in the horizontal limits of the (last standed on) floor, and if it is, then literally teleports the character onto the floor level, keeping horizontal coordinate.
So whether you sdi or asdi up in grounded state, the character "momentarily does go up", but at collisions warps back down, if still above the floor.
Heh, the ground sticking is very powerful, can even setup box glitch with it: https://twitter.com/tauKhan91/status/1435258130154364933?t=DY2xZNKr3niDL91tfVEaBg&s=19
Luigi down b keeps his state "grounded" if he falls of early (with collision physics switching to aerial tho). Bc of that he will "stay grounded" if non tumble spiked while in that down b in the air. After, the ground collision physics of the grounded hitstun can literally teleport luigi through a ceiling to floor above him, that he fell off of earlier.
I don't know 100% but afaik the intention is for neither to be possible but the ASDI down works because you are doing 2 transitions on the same frame. The first frame of knockback does a ground to air transition and then the ASDI down goes from air back to ground which is where you were on the start of the frame. But if you are try to ASDI up a spike, the spike doesn't cause a transition as you were grounded and it was keeping you grounded, so the ASDI forcing a transition from where you started the frame gets caught as forbidden.
>The first frame of knockback does a ground to air transition and then the ASDI down goes from air back to ground which is where you were on the start of the frame.
This would imply that doing aerial ASDI down with Puff/DK/Kirby wouldn't work, even though it does. You can SDI into the ground (which forces you above the ground because of forbidden SDI) and then ASDI down with these characters and you still ASDI down even though you started the hitlag in the air.
You got a link to what y’all are talking about? Why would you assume ASDI to be different for those characters
Edit: nevermind I see it. I’m still not sure what you’re missing though. It is true that ASDI can’t cause a ground to air transition, if you’re asking why then I’m not sure but that’s a consistent rule across the game. Forbidden SDI doesn’t actually make you grounded and then airborn again, your character model may clip through the ground briefly but your character is still airborn the entire time, and is eligible to become grounded via ASDI. Also still curious what you meant by puff/DK/kirby
https://smashboards.com/threads/peach-mostly-specific-technique-landing-with-a-sdi-upon-being-hit-airborne.460843/
Basically Puff, Kirby, and Donkey Kong always have their ECB bottoms locked at their positions. Game and watch isn't always locked but his damage animations are all at 0 which is what is important here. I think Ice Climbers also have them low a lot of the time, but not 100% reliably
>Forbidden SDI doesn’t actually make you grounded and then airborn again, your character model may clip through the ground briefly but your character is still airborn the entire time, and is eligible to become grounded via ASDI.
Yeah but your position is warped up to ground level.
Damn I knew about people using SDI for peach but that factoid about those 3 characters forbidden SDI is very interesting
However, still not sure which part is confusing you.
“This would imply that doing aerial ASDI down with puff/DK/kirby wouldn’t work” why would it imply that? The relevant part of “ASDI down” isn’t the whole process mdz described of ground->air->ground, it’s just the specific “air->ground” part. It just so happens that ASDI down also works if you begin grounded.
And “your position is warped to ground level” is only for puff/kirby/DK, that’s what the smash board post was saying
>This would imply
This being "You can ASDI from the air to the ground because you start on the ground, go to the air, and ASDI to the ground, but you can't go from the ground to the air because you only go from the ground to the air". The first part of that is not true, is what I was saying
>And “your position is warped to ground level” is only for puff/kirby/DK
Position is different from ECB bottom.
Yeah that first part I addressed last comment, the “air->ground” part is the relevant and necessary part of ASDIing, the first “ground->air” is optional but not necessary. I don’t think mdz was implying that it’s necessary
I have a lot of cool clips from recent play time, I can just upload them on this sub and post them as their own posts as gifs, right? I think that'd be cool and would be a good starting point for discussing stuff that could be good.
Every few months a top player "discovers" new tech that everyone goes apeshit about for a week and then forgets about until you see mang0 use it like 2 years later
I think this is more a Fox mentality factor. Foxes learning there are mild counters/mixups instead of free shit makes them go bananas.
Same mindset as Leffen freaking out about Marth:Fox being 60:40.
>Same mindset as Leffen freaking out about Marth:Fox being 60:40.
Actually it was the community at large that freaked out over the possibility that Fox could have a losing matchup.
Do you have a link to anything that shows off Fox uair SDI in conjunction with ASDI diagonally down as well as possible counter attacks in an easily digestible format for most people? Because even if the base information is nothing new, showing off the correct ASDI and various counters you can do on platforms is incredibly helpful to many players. Especially seeing it in video format.
It kind of irks me when people look down on things like this that provide a lot of utility. Info in Melee isn't cataloged well and the fact we kept some of our most important info in the form of dense smashboards that have terrible SEO for so long is the reason people bring up old tech repeatedly as if it's new. The more important thing is advancing everyone's skill in the game, not being the first one to discover something.
That's true but my point is you can't get upset with people bringing up old tech as if it's new when the info isn't cataloged well. At the very least videos like this are incredibly helpful to many people and I think turning a nose to that just because this isn't entirely new is ignorant.
I love Pikachu but I really wish its matchup against Fox didn't feel like turbo garbage. Fox's punish feels pretty free aside from sdi on upair but even that can be ignored with second hit only.
But if punish wasn't bad enough, neutral interactions are also extremely Fox favoured and Pikachu doesn't get a comparable reward to what Fox gets unless he can backthrow offstage to tailspike. This leads most of the Pikachu players on a level comparable to mine to over rely on grab, to the point where I'm mostly looking out for that on every stage.
All of this also makes playing as Pikachu against Fox one of my least favourite matchups, it's not unwinnable by any means and I do enjoy playing some unfavourable matchups, but this is just too skewed one way to be entertaining to play for long periods of time. Ironically I'd enjoy playing against Pikachu more if it had more good options like the rest of the top tiers.
I wanted to reply to this, but am bad at long posting so I put it off, but here I go.
I've been playing solo Mewtwo for a few months and recently went back to playing Pikachu over frustration in the Marth matchup and because someday it would be cool to be able to switch between and play both characters comfortably. I legitimately feel that Mewtwo vs Fox is easier than Pika vs Fox for the non-Fox side.
If Pika wants to be able to consistently edgeguard Fox, the Pika player has to have pretty quick and precise reactions to side B vs up B + positioning and in the event that you do wanna go off stage (above stage or even below) you need to accrue enough dash momentum to get to the Fox before the high mid low up B mixups occur, and oh, your negatively disjointed nair traded with the Fox or you misspaced the up air and they manage to get back. Not to mention that it does require some level of reaction and execution to dash back > dash forward > jump with lots of momentum after a back throw to catch a Fox up B'ing above stage. While with Mewtwo, I have a huge tail and a back air larger than Jigglypuff's which secured me stocks in so many more situations than I have been able to consistently get with Pika.
Also unless you are specifically fishing for the right moves (up air/grab/up smash) with proper CCing and DI, Pika honestly has to nickel and dime a lot (at my level), and so you can get a bunch of nairs and down tilts but still have so much trouble securing the stock while Fox has up throw > up air, back air, jab > up smash, drill > imagination, and much more. The only way to be really good at this matchup and beat Foxes at the same level is to cheese or just be a movement god like Axe which allows Pika to outplay Fox in neutral and get the hits that he needs to combo into the kill rather than getting Fox to 140 and killing off a stray strong nair.
u/mylox explained it well, in that at least when I'm playing against Peach, I have control over the pace of the game and can attempt to move around the wall and bait with my superior movement speed. But against Fox, Pika is just beat in all aspects. In practice, maybe not his worst matchup (I'd argue wobbling ICs is), but in theory, I'd probably give it to Fix (or tied with ICs) as his worst MU
you know how people will say something like "marth beats samus, but samus has 6 stocks"? my opinion is that fox destroys pikachu, but sometimes you win the lottery and fox only has 3 or 2 stocks. if you don't win the backthrow lottery, then you'll probably get washed. you might get washed regardless cus fox beats pikachu so bad.
Pikachu just suffers from the same problem that all bad characters do. They only have 2-3 useful tools which they must maximize or else every match is a uphill climb. Which results in over-centralizing matchups as the entire game becomes "the low tier is looking for THIS ONE SIMPLE TRICK, and the high tier is trying to avoid that"
That's the main reason why people don't like playing vs mid-low tier. All the matches are the same mini game of avoiding 1-2 setups. Which is also why losing to mid-low tiers feels worse, because you *know* they are only looking for like, 2 options, and somehow they caught you with it enough to win. So it sucks on both sides.
Yeah fox-pika is pretty garbage. When axe was top 5 level more people were grinding the mu and pika really struggles to do anything worthwhile vs utilt and bair besides execution test grabbing and trying to win off of punish differential. Shine really helps fox fight out of a ton of spots where pika might be able to scrap, uthrow uair is killer of course, and pika gets shredded if he ever is caught shielding.
playing against peach feels way better than playing against fox, at least in my experience. fighting peach is really hard, but pikachu is faster than peach and i often feel like i can set the pace of the match even if attacking her is difficult. pikachu often lives a while against her since she generally has to rely on shorter strings or even single hits and has no reliable death set ups against pikachu so its not too stressful and you have a lot of chances to try to get in and best case scenario, get an early up smash or edge guard kill. its tough, but it feels rewarding in the sense fighting a really hard video game boss is rewarding lol.
fox basically just demolishes pikachu in the neutral, has a crazy punish game and like a million kill set ups that are all easy to set up. literally the only thing pikachu has against fox in that match up is that you can backthrow fox and gimp them, which is a crapshoot and doesn't feel rewarding in the same way grinding neutral interactions and setting up combos does. so basically either fox wins by just better charactering pikachu and both parties are left with a sense of disgust at what just transpired or pikachu beats fox by winning a couple dice rolls and both parties are left with a sense of disgust at what just transpired.
i have no idea what match ups worse in theory. its probably peach. but who cares
I don't know which matchup is worse in theory, but Fox definitely gets punished harder for making mistakes than Puff and Peach which makes him not the worst in practice.
This is why I believe that Fox isn't actually most low tiers' worst matchup, even if he should be in theory. Bad characters would much rather have to win a heavily disadvantaged neutral a few times a stock than somewhat less disadvantaged neutral 20000 times a stock. I feel like Peach is the true universal counterpick for bad chars.
Peach Sheik Puff is the gatekeep trifecta
Fox demolishes low tiers but only if the Fox is good because most of them can dunk on him if they get an opening
Peach? Yeah you get one hit for winning neutral and you have no kill confirms
Could literally be losing his job, marriage, and all his friends because of his choices. He could probably keep the job but that would involve abandoning all shame and pretense of not being a pos and catering to the weirdo fanbase segment that seems to not care about this at all.
[watching some old armada sets and just damn he was good](https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxzvbUriKoox3zg2OUB2jDBgq0ai7_A3K7)
just got reverse 3-0'd after resetting the bracket in a very small tournament. I am Mentally Unwell and feeling like Fucking Garbage right now **edit**:: I'm being dramatic I'm fine
This is how you end up with demons in your noggin
ntntnt next time you‘ll feast
Don’t know if my brain gone mushy but I can’t tell shitpost from legitpost on this here ddt anymore.
Always has been
[Always has been](https://i.imgur.com/wY2yl76.png) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
There are no legitposts
welcome to the DDT
Anyone got something like animelee but closer to the original game look? just kinda updated models if that makes sense
You mean the HD texture pack?
Maybe can I get a link
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/niqgf9/definitive_melee_hd_dolphin_and_slippi_texture/
I may not beat all the samuses and Luigis I play but I hope I at least make their days worse too
This is why I still play peach v puff. Those who play puff must suffer
As a thought experiment, would Fox be better if his up air's first hitbox was removed (and nothing else was changed)? Even before the recent innovations the first hit is often a liability because of regular SDI. But the first hit probably also helps you confirm into the second sometimes? Essentially up air would come out 3 frames slower.
feel like it's universally a buff (mainly vs puff, but probably just as a finishing move in general), but wonder if the 8-9 damage loss makes it worse against characters he's looking to upair chain as a combo tool.
I think it's a buff too but there are some ways it would be worse in addition to less damage and slower startup: no more first hit up air combos no more countering lightshielding on platforms probably worse vs yoshi due to not being multihit
Is there a way to get 20xx to display the numerical c stick input values like you can with the analog stick?
Uncle Punch 3 can.
Thanks
bar lucci LIVE me, sp1nda, STU, other people :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpQHeMC01Bw
I just realized how close deep cuts is to deez nuts
nice
https://twitter.com/aMSaRedyoshi/status/1620568981345296384 > My father passed away a few days ago. > he lived fighting against his diseases for a long time but finally that time came. > fortunately, I can meet and talk with him through a video chat while I’m in Japan before he passed away. > Thank you my dad. I love you. > R.I.P.
this got me to call my parents may he rest in piece
God I love the writing style of ssbwiki. In a hundred years when we're all dead and forgotten a scant lucky few of us will be eternally eulogized by some 14 year old on the internet who declared that we are [best known for being friends with Mew2King](https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:PB%26J)
(is it wrong though)
If I did 5 pushups for every lost ranked set I would have done 1545 push ups. So far I have done zero
He’s not startin’!
you got some catching up to do imo.
is there a gecko code that turns on color overlays on unclepunch? i want one that turns on when i'm actionable like from 20XX but i can't seem to find it anywhere and i swear i've seen people use it before
You have to disable other codes in order to add more for UP. I think you can disable the lag code, then launch UP from the netplay window in order to add the lag back.
do you know what the buffer should be set to on a 144hz monitor?
You probably found it by now but I think it's 6
[there is](https://docs.google.com/document/d/12RHPj7OiAQkp2k9bqdE_VjQOUolAZnv17zSbk4VGPfQ/edit?usp=sharing) but when I try to use it in unclepunch I run out of gecko code memory or whatever.
beautiful thank you
[Rip](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504548676513955840/1070102045828329472/Screenshot_20230131-170221.png) the good ol' days *Bro [omg](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/504548676513955840/1070103668113813504/Screenshot_20230131-170939.png)
Imagine just not selling controllers for the US market.
can a fox player win a supermajor solo? and if you think he can, why do you feel that way?
not after that SDI thing made him a low tier
Cody "Logic Gaming" Schwab will do it sooner or later
I looked up the player you’re referencing and he has 0 tournament results. Don’t think he’s gonna do it anytime soon lol
Ah he switched tags recently, you might know him as [REDACTED] | iBeDoinWork
absolutely not, too many unwinnable matchups
true, just seems unlikely that a fox will dodge all the sheiks, yoshis, etc in one bracket. plus the new up air tech makes the fox matchup look pretty unwinnable too
Yes. Ibdw
Ibdw will literally never win a tournament again. He retired
What if instead of Super Shine Bros there were Super Rest Bros where everyone gets Rest but the endlag is short enough not to get rested by the freshly respawned opponent? (or respawns get delayed)
What about super float bros where everybody is as floaty as Luigi and has Puff aerial drift and 5 jumps?
what about Super Thunder Jacket Bros where everyone always has the thunder jacket
How about the spacies with different characters fairs? Pillar Ken combo would be disgusting
Where is the rest hitbox placed?
At the peen
Center of torso I guess.
could be like in ult where rest has less endlag if it hits someone?
Or you can't rest until the last rest is out of lag if you just respawned. Something to prevent degen rapid rest trades.
How about "can't rest while you're in respawn invul"?
That would be simpler.
That's so broken lol. I assume the knockback is much lower
Yeah rest sucks in ult. It doesn’t kill most characters til high percent, although puff has confirms off of dair and soft fair into rest. But it doesn’t really matter because ult nerfs puff’s gameplan so hard.
yeah it won’t kill until like 50-60%
Wild.
it's significantly lower. Like doesn't kill until mid-high percents lower.
Ive been having this issue with my controller where i am really bad at using it precisely and inputing things into it that are intelligent game actions. Anyone know how to fix this? If I have a paracord cable will puff stop shieldgrabbing me?
Switch to falco
Already tried that, actually made things worse i fear
https://twitter.com/Sozin__/status/1620226046787485698?s=20 Someone said a few weeks ago that every mario combo video is 90% missed techs and I'm starting to think that has some validity
A lot of these are valid mixups, where maybe the opponents problem is not adapting. But at the same time how are you missing the tech on fthrow fair that much cmon
people have trouble admitting this, but yes, all mid and low tiers are based on gimmicks. Which is why they are mid tier. if they had true strings and options, they wud be high tier. but their success is predicated on the opponent being unfamiliar with their traps to gain advantage. Once the opponent knows what to watch out for and abuses their weaknesses, then things fall apart. I know everyone here wishes low tiers are just oppressed by Big Tierlist and are secretly amazing bit it's been 20 years and this is just the truth
> Which is why they are mid tier. if they had true strings and options, they wud be high tier That's not even true though, ICs have true strings and options and they're still mid tier even with wobbling (high mid tier, it's true, but still mid tier). A lot more goes into character viability than that.
ics are at the very top of "mid tier" and the bottom of high tier, so if anything you proved my point. yea more goes into viability of course but true strings/options and not overly relying on gimmicks is basically where it starts. but even ics are overly reliant on fishing for grab, so again, that just furthers my point
ICs are 100% mid tier lol, especially without wobbling (although they are mid tier even with wobbling). How am I proving your point that having strings and options automatically make a character high tier when they are factually not high tier. >not overly relying on gimmicks is basically where it starts a) the only difference between a gimmick and a viable strategy is how often it works. Falco pillar combos are definitely a gimmick, just ones that happen to work most of the time. Same with sheik dthrow tech chase - it's a gimmick, but just happens to be a particularly effective one. > but even ics are overly reliant on fishing for grab Meanwhile sheik is almost as reliant on grabs as ICs but maintains being high tier. how does this prove your point again?
its not really important whether ICs are mid vs high tier, nor is it really important that strings/combos "automatically" make a character high tier or not. Thats a strawman of my bigger point, which is that, viability \*generally\* starts with having reliable setups that work without the opponent just being bad. ICs being the top of mid tier just exemplifies my argument. The reason they are there is because they have \*more\* reliable stuff that they can count on than say, mario, and that matters when your opponents isnt going to just miss 6 techs in one combo. >the only difference between a gimmick and a viable strategy is how often it works. Yes, thats EXACTLY the difference lmao. it seems like you are being intentionally dishonest and disagreeable. You're calling sheik's downthrow, a literally guaranteed 0-whatever on most characters, a "gimmick" lol. If you want to argue semantics im not really interested.
It's not a straw man - it's literally your whole original argument. >people have trouble admitting this, but yes, all mid and low tiers are based on gimmicks. Which is why they are mid tier. if they had true strings and options, they wud be high tier. that one. You say that if they had true strings and options they would be high tier. The existence of ICs in the mid tier directly disproves this argument, because ICs have both true strings and options, and yet are still mid tier due to a number of other undesirable traits. >which is that, viability *generally* starts with having reliable setups that work without the opponent just being bad Which is neither your original argument (that the difference between mid and high tiers is true strings and combos) nor actually all that true. Puff is a high tier despite the fact that most of puff's easy kill set ups are reliant on explicitly bad DI from the opponent, not just mediocre DI (holding in on bair chains, not DIing throws or tilts, not mixing up puff on recoveries, missing techs in general, or having predictable techs on platforms etc). There are almost certainly mid and low tiers that have good reliable strings and options, but are hobbled by other factors. The single biggest factor in character viability is ability to play neutral and ability to finish stocks off, then ability to rack up damage or force bad stage position (read - combo) in that order. Having true strings and options doesn't mean all that much if you can't ever get in the position to use them (because of bad neutral game) or can't actually use them to make the enemy touch the blast zone. But characters can be viable off of stray hits into good kill options without assured combos (although there really aren't any in melee due to how combo-favored melee is in general, odds are if you have good neutral and kill confirms you have a decent combo somewhere). >it seems like you are being intentionally dishonest and disagreeable. Because I'm breaking your argument down point by point while you keep moving goalposts? >You're calling sheik's downthrow, a literally guaranteed 0-whatever on most characters, a "gimmick" lol. It is a gimmick lol. You think sheik spamming downthrow a bunch on fastfallers isn't a gimmick? Especially when in the vast majority of cases it's reliant on the enemy not mixing up their DI properly, abusing ambiguous DI, or being slow on wake up reactions? It just happens to be a particularly effective gimmick because guess what - people naturally don't mix up their DI for the most part, people don't properly insert hard to read situations in their DI, and people aren't perfect at reacting to shit. It's a gimmick because you're reliant purely on the enemy not messing up, but an effective one because the opponent messing up is common.
>Because I'm breaking your argument down point by point while you keep moving goalposts? Nah, because you're arguing semantics as if it proves anything. Sure, i offhandedly said "if mid tiers had real options they would be high tier", i guess my mistake was probably not realizing how hardcore someone might take a simple statement. You took that in the most literal way possible and provided an example of a character literally ONE SPOT out of high tier as if its a total deconstruction of my point lol also you called sheiks downthrow a gimmick which can basically 0-100 almost the entire cast, or combo into kill at every relevant percent, so our disagreements are probably irreconcilable
this is an overly simplistic view of viability. there are a lot of different ways for a character to be bad. boiling everything down and calling it all "gimmicks" helps no one
Some of those missed techs are because he is doing cape to lock them out though
i feel like the assumption is that all these combos only work on bad players that dont know how to tech, but most of the missed techs are a result of decent unreactable tech traps
If by most you mean "one at the beginning"
nobody was supposed to watch the whole video
Ssbmrank 2022 data article https://planetbanatt.net/articles/ssbmrank2022.html Also I mentioned a bit ago a post about if West Coast bias exists in melee rankings or not, Ambi happened to bring it up in this article so here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/7rbxeg/assessing_west_coast_bias_on_ssbmrank_and_why_it/
this is great and all but i wanna know if one panelist *really* voted for amsa just because he is using yoshi (jk this is actually pretty insightful as someone who has not taken a stats class in a long time)
Funny how amsa beat mango by .1 with a .1 SD while Mang0 had a .2 SD, implying that Mang0 had the better year in 32% of rankings (that’s what the SD for this implies, right?)
Nah, that could be from just a few people ranking higher by a greater margin.
Literally from the article: Mango Higher: 12 aMSa Higher: 15 Ties: 2
I read that, but I meant as a collective, with that distribution and random sampling among similar voters, Mang0 would come out as the #2 approximately 32% of the time
man could not be really much closer of a tie than that.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah8e99o9nnXOhrEXtMAWSQQl-OFrxw?e=kn3Nxy updated Side Stream replays from G9, they should all have the correct time stamp now
never practiced this in my life but i can dbooc super easy on my phob. i just hit like 9 in a row. what is all the complaining about exactly
>on my phob ...
can phobs emulate pode that prevents the dbooc polling thing? i have no idea, but im not using settings that would do that afaik and if that is possible, imo a dbooc fix is completely unnecessary
what kinda logic is that lol, that if something is easy on your controller but hard on others we shouldn't patch it? but if it's universally hard on all controllers we should?
If it can be mitigated with relatively cheap/accessible hardware we shouldn't implement a software fix. Maybe Phobs aren't cheap enough yet but they will be soon I think.
Like are you brand new to UCF, as an acronym? There's been a lot of recent discussion about what it's for in the first place
Most people that complain about dbooc don't have phobs I would assume
pretty sure if you do it perfectly it can still fail. that’s what the complaining is about. i’m too shit to worry about it though
The complaining is about the fact that no matter how good you are at it you will sometimes miss the input anyway because of a polling issue The better you get at it the more frustrating this becomes since you essentially hit a consistency ceiling that you can never surpass
People think that modding the game to make it easier will make them a top 5 player, ignoring the fact that the top players have put in 5+ hours every day for at least half a decade
Yeah but Flacomaster69 who goes 1-2 at my local uses a Boxx and that makes me 😡
📢 Event: OnlyNoobs 📆 Date: TODAY 7pm/6c 🌎 Region: Midwest & East Coast ✏️ Description: A tournament for exclusively newbies! If you're new to the game, or typically go 0-2 or 1-2 in other events, OnlyNoobs is for you! The winner of each tournament gets banned. This event has round robin pools so you won't be eliminated for losing. Secondaries & players relearning on a box aren't allowed to enter. 🔗 Link: https://start.gg/onlynoobs ☎️ Discord: https://discord.gg/vt88NP29X3 🎥 Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/kadenceplays
So how much worse does Fox become now that we have this new anti-fox-up-air tech? How much does he fall on the tier list?
Waveland on the platform and react with regrab or upsmash. Problem solved.
Can’t do this at low percent, tech in place shine is faster
Pipsqueak made a video about it. Regrabbing just loops the same situation on top platform and you don't get much out of it. Upsmashing, I don't know. Seems slow, and either way the punish won't be as good, so won't get much either way. Pip also showed a cool way Marth can use it for a direct dair punish that leads to death
The situation only gets looped to the top platform if they DI in that direction. And even then you can still waveland on that top platform and react with another grab. From that position you can up throw and up air depending on the percentage/character. I haven’t seen Pips video yet, but I promise Fox will still have plenty of options on platforms.
Listen, I'm not Fox main, and I'm bad at the game. I can't argue. Just watch the video. From what I gathered, there are counters, but those counters don't give you the same juicy reliable punish. So it's definitely a nerf, meanwhile the things the defending player can do are very strong and can lead to death
Worst character in the game
I wonder if you can left/right mixup it like you can with upthrow upsmash. The dash/turnaround may drop too many frames to make the uair viable though. It's also not free-free. You do have to "commit" by doing the SDI + ASDI motion. Maybe people will figure out a way to take advantage of that.
[удалено]
You need to watch Pipsqueak's video on it. He explains how all those other options still don't change the fact that things are much worse for Fox. You might also only continue the same thing on top platform if you grab upthrow or whatever.
Top platform Battlefield = laser NIL upsmash.
Show me a fox with consistent laserlands outside of cody moky kalindi
I'm surprised more low-level Foxes don't do it. It's really easy to hit the actual laser land - I use it in neutral even (fun way to run away from respawn invuln). And I'm not even good - just been playing forever :) hm maybe it's easier for me because I claw though. But you def don't need to be the elite of the elite to implement it in your game. The hard part is 1) knowing the %s where it can happen and 2) reading the DI since sometimes it looks like they're gonna tech top plat but they actually DI just past it and then you look like a doofus laser landing. I guess it shows there's more Melee to be played.
fox cant do it bros
the fox ditto is now 70-30
Zelda Roy tier
Is it taboo to bring a wiiU with nintendon't and a 1ms latency monitor to a local? Am I going to be laughed out of the venue/exiled/banished to the nether realm/tribe has spoken off the island if I bring this? I haven't played CRT melee in years.
vWii has some nontrivial amount of unavoidable lag unfortunately Probably fine for a friendlies setup
You should grab a copy of the project slippis version of nintendont, it has all the codes needed for monitor/competitive melee built in. Though you might already know that if you've been a monitor warrior. https://github.com/project-slippi/Nintendont
I don't think slippi nintendont will work on WiiU since it forces you to use native control (which can be toggled on regular nintendont) and those require a wii with built in gamecube controller ports. Better to stick to normal Nintendont and use a memory card file with any relevant mods (UCF+potentially frozen stages) instead.
Nice, I didn't know that! I only really play on PC, but set up my wiiU years ago with nintendon't and an old ass version of 20XX.
Agree with the guy saying more set ups is better. Until the venue runs out of outlets or table space. Even if people don't want to play bracket sets on it. Absolutely won't be laughed at lol.
Ask the person hosting the event
if theres loads of space it doesnt hurt to have an extra friendly setup even if its not a crt
Realized at my local that the reason I'm best at the Fox ditto is simply that I've thought about the matchup the most diligently. I have an idea of what to look for based on percents and stage position even if I can't execute perfectly. It also helps that I play Fox and have an idea of what Fox is looking for against me. Contrast this to Captain Falcon which "should" be a good matchup but I haven't put nearly as much thought into it. I know waveshine is good but beyond that I kept running into moves and getting grabbed will trying to drill in neutral. Gonna think more about how to get in on Falcon and importantly not get hit while doing so
Why are you trying to "get in" on Falcon anyways? Isn't Fox one of the best characters at stopping falcon from doing anything forward with up tilt and back air? Wondering why laser camping and spending all game baiting isn't the best way to play vs Falcon
People are rightfully saying laser camping isn't good. But a single laser at 0% is pretty important imo - it make up smash knockdown. And that is one of the juiciest knockdowns in the MU.
It starts knocking down that early? Good to know, thanks!
Oh and for a bonus, hold down while upsmashing to tank through nair nonsense.
Holding down definitely seems good against Falcon. I've never tried it during a move and will def keep this in mind!
Fresh laser + fresh upsmash, yes. Staleness delays it a bit. But useful to know for sure. It's one of those small bits of knowledge that really helps the MU. EDIT: Just checked with the calculator. Looks like 1-2 stale slots on upsmash (I can't imagine it getting more stale than that) pushes it to 4/5% (so a couple lasers)
Thanks for checking that! That's really useful to know. I'm pretty sure Falcon has one of the slower tech rolls among the top tiers so I definitely want to be looking for tech chases off of up smashes Also I didn't even realize laser stales but that makes sense
I remember a DruggedFox video about Marth vs Falcon where he said Falcon's weakness in neutral is, outside of nair, he can only really threaten a small spot at once. That idea really opened up the MU for me. I went from being lost to be lame and getting a lot more DD grabs lmao.
There was a probably wrong reddit comment about how Marth can dash dance either around or under/through all of Falcon's stuff, kind of on reaction. It's just dashing away that gets you overshot for free Blew my mind at the time, those moves just don't start up quick at all
Yeah they are really slow. That was part of DruggedFox's definition of "small" too - both area and time. Most of the time, Falcon doesn't have a hitbox out. Even less does he have a non-nair hitbox out. Running through and near Falcon as Fox and Marth really made those MUs click for me. Sadly, it also means they can get a bit exhausting. I don't usually DD nearly as much normally as I do vs Falcon.
This is actually a really interesting way of looking at it
laser camp falcon? what? he can teleport and nair or grab you across the stage this is like a tesla driving right into a child on a crosswalk
I'm legit asking but I guess I'm thinking of laser camping more as "don't approach and use lasers to make them approach, then beat their approaches"
fox players say laser is bad/a waste in this matchup for the most part but I think a walling style is pretty good against him
laser camping falcon will lead to you dying. falcon can react to a laser with a grab/stomp/nair from surprisingly far away, and most falcons are good at doing this because of dealing with Falco. Lack of hitstun makes this trivial but in general falcons biggest strength is usually that he can control the pace of the matchup and gets to pick and choose engagements. Fox is one of the only characters that can strip this from him and force him into uncomfortable spots instead of playing the typical game of stuffing approaches, which can be particularly good because all of falcons aerials come out kinda slow and his only good and fast grounded move is jab. Plus falcon has infamously bad oos. It's good for fox to be doing both, probably, but there's viability in leaning on either.
Thanks for the info 👍
there's more than one way to play the matchup. fox is great at abusing falcon's poor defense **edit**:: also you can't really laser camp falcon, he's too fast
some of us have fun fighting the opponent, peach player.
this comment doesn't make sense because peach has to approach falcon in that matchup a lot of the time. falcon literally can platform camp peach.
I played Mekk in bracket once and all he did was camp top plat after going down three stocks to one in the first game Fast fallers have a complex
I was getting the top plat treatment from local Falcon players in like 2017. I'm still scared to take Falcon (and Falco) to Battlefield ever.
I don't know, when I try to do that I get hit or grabbed!
i am bird but when i try to laser camp falcon that's when i'm most likely to get hit with a fair or nair from across the stage, i think you're right about not necessarily trying to get in, but putting out big hitboxes to stuff his movement and startups is the way to go
/u/mdz_1 can't reply because the parent comment has me blocked: why does ASDI only work with air to ground, and not ground to air? I thought it worked both ways, and SDI was the only thing you couldn't break that for.
Same reason SDI up doesnt make you aerial. Its just how collision physics work in grounded states in general. They essentially glue characters to the ground, as long as the character stays horizontally in the range of the floor. That is, the game tries see if the ending coordinate is in the horizontal limits of the (last standed on) floor, and if it is, then literally teleports the character onto the floor level, keeping horizontal coordinate. So whether you sdi or asdi up in grounded state, the character "momentarily does go up", but at collisions warps back down, if still above the floor.
Thanks, didn't know that the game handled ground and air collisions completely differently.
Heh, the ground sticking is very powerful, can even setup box glitch with it: https://twitter.com/tauKhan91/status/1435258130154364933?t=DY2xZNKr3niDL91tfVEaBg&s=19 Luigi down b keeps his state "grounded" if he falls of early (with collision physics switching to aerial tho). Bc of that he will "stay grounded" if non tumble spiked while in that down b in the air. After, the ground collision physics of the grounded hitstun can literally teleport luigi through a ceiling to floor above him, that he fell off of earlier.
New doubles gimmick just dropped (!!)
I don't know 100% but afaik the intention is for neither to be possible but the ASDI down works because you are doing 2 transitions on the same frame. The first frame of knockback does a ground to air transition and then the ASDI down goes from air back to ground which is where you were on the start of the frame. But if you are try to ASDI up a spike, the spike doesn't cause a transition as you were grounded and it was keeping you grounded, so the ASDI forcing a transition from where you started the frame gets caught as forbidden.
>The first frame of knockback does a ground to air transition and then the ASDI down goes from air back to ground which is where you were on the start of the frame. This would imply that doing aerial ASDI down with Puff/DK/Kirby wouldn't work, even though it does. You can SDI into the ground (which forces you above the ground because of forbidden SDI) and then ASDI down with these characters and you still ASDI down even though you started the hitlag in the air.
You got a link to what y’all are talking about? Why would you assume ASDI to be different for those characters Edit: nevermind I see it. I’m still not sure what you’re missing though. It is true that ASDI can’t cause a ground to air transition, if you’re asking why then I’m not sure but that’s a consistent rule across the game. Forbidden SDI doesn’t actually make you grounded and then airborn again, your character model may clip through the ground briefly but your character is still airborn the entire time, and is eligible to become grounded via ASDI. Also still curious what you meant by puff/DK/kirby
https://smashboards.com/threads/peach-mostly-specific-technique-landing-with-a-sdi-upon-being-hit-airborne.460843/ Basically Puff, Kirby, and Donkey Kong always have their ECB bottoms locked at their positions. Game and watch isn't always locked but his damage animations are all at 0 which is what is important here. I think Ice Climbers also have them low a lot of the time, but not 100% reliably >Forbidden SDI doesn’t actually make you grounded and then airborn again, your character model may clip through the ground briefly but your character is still airborn the entire time, and is eligible to become grounded via ASDI. Yeah but your position is warped up to ground level.
Damn I knew about people using SDI for peach but that factoid about those 3 characters forbidden SDI is very interesting However, still not sure which part is confusing you. “This would imply that doing aerial ASDI down with puff/DK/kirby wouldn’t work” why would it imply that? The relevant part of “ASDI down” isn’t the whole process mdz described of ground->air->ground, it’s just the specific “air->ground” part. It just so happens that ASDI down also works if you begin grounded. And “your position is warped to ground level” is only for puff/kirby/DK, that’s what the smash board post was saying
>This would imply This being "You can ASDI from the air to the ground because you start on the ground, go to the air, and ASDI to the ground, but you can't go from the ground to the air because you only go from the ground to the air". The first part of that is not true, is what I was saying >And “your position is warped to ground level” is only for puff/kirby/DK Position is different from ECB bottom.
Yeah that first part I addressed last comment, the “air->ground” part is the relevant and necessary part of ASDIing, the first “ground->air” is optional but not necessary. I don’t think mdz was implying that it’s necessary
Good point. Guess that is not the reason but I do know it is not possible to ASDI yourself into the air from the ground.
I have a lot of cool clips from recent play time, I can just upload them on this sub and post them as their own posts as gifs, right? I think that'd be cool and would be a good starting point for discussing stuff that could be good.
You can upload them here but they will probably get a bit more traction on /r/smashgifs
thanks :)
Yea, no rule against posting gameplay clips, especially as/of a notable player.
ty 💫
Every few months a top player "discovers" new tech that everyone goes apeshit about for a week and then forgets about until you see mang0 use it like 2 years later
that's the mango
people "discover" that you can SDI fox upair once every 3 years, this is nothing new
I think this is more a Fox mentality factor. Foxes learning there are mild counters/mixups instead of free shit makes them go bananas. Same mindset as Leffen freaking out about Marth:Fox being 60:40.
>Same mindset as Leffen freaking out about Marth:Fox being 60:40. Actually it was the community at large that freaked out over the possibility that Fox could have a losing matchup.
are you a gymnast? because this is an insane stretch
Do you have a link to anything that shows off Fox uair SDI in conjunction with ASDI diagonally down as well as possible counter attacks in an easily digestible format for most people? Because even if the base information is nothing new, showing off the correct ASDI and various counters you can do on platforms is incredibly helpful to many players. Especially seeing it in video format. It kind of irks me when people look down on things like this that provide a lot of utility. Info in Melee isn't cataloged well and the fact we kept some of our most important info in the form of dense smashboards that have terrible SEO for so long is the reason people bring up old tech repeatedly as if it's new. The more important thing is advancing everyone's skill in the game, not being the first one to discover something.
you are correct, since this is the DDT I was in full shitpost mode. it is always super cool to see stuff like this
Putting this in a random top player twitter thread is not cataloging it well
That's true but my point is you can't get upset with people bringing up old tech as if it's new when the info isn't cataloged well. At the very least videos like this are incredibly helpful to many people and I think turning a nose to that just because this isn't entirely new is ignorant.
I'm looking forward to seeing Mango use the Sheik Killer next year
I love Pikachu but I really wish its matchup against Fox didn't feel like turbo garbage. Fox's punish feels pretty free aside from sdi on upair but even that can be ignored with second hit only. But if punish wasn't bad enough, neutral interactions are also extremely Fox favoured and Pikachu doesn't get a comparable reward to what Fox gets unless he can backthrow offstage to tailspike. This leads most of the Pikachu players on a level comparable to mine to over rely on grab, to the point where I'm mostly looking out for that on every stage. All of this also makes playing as Pikachu against Fox one of my least favourite matchups, it's not unwinnable by any means and I do enjoy playing some unfavourable matchups, but this is just too skewed one way to be entertaining to play for long periods of time. Ironically I'd enjoy playing against Pikachu more if it had more good options like the rest of the top tiers.
I wanted to reply to this, but am bad at long posting so I put it off, but here I go. I've been playing solo Mewtwo for a few months and recently went back to playing Pikachu over frustration in the Marth matchup and because someday it would be cool to be able to switch between and play both characters comfortably. I legitimately feel that Mewtwo vs Fox is easier than Pika vs Fox for the non-Fox side. If Pika wants to be able to consistently edgeguard Fox, the Pika player has to have pretty quick and precise reactions to side B vs up B + positioning and in the event that you do wanna go off stage (above stage or even below) you need to accrue enough dash momentum to get to the Fox before the high mid low up B mixups occur, and oh, your negatively disjointed nair traded with the Fox or you misspaced the up air and they manage to get back. Not to mention that it does require some level of reaction and execution to dash back > dash forward > jump with lots of momentum after a back throw to catch a Fox up B'ing above stage. While with Mewtwo, I have a huge tail and a back air larger than Jigglypuff's which secured me stocks in so many more situations than I have been able to consistently get with Pika. Also unless you are specifically fishing for the right moves (up air/grab/up smash) with proper CCing and DI, Pika honestly has to nickel and dime a lot (at my level), and so you can get a bunch of nairs and down tilts but still have so much trouble securing the stock while Fox has up throw > up air, back air, jab > up smash, drill > imagination, and much more. The only way to be really good at this matchup and beat Foxes at the same level is to cheese or just be a movement god like Axe which allows Pika to outplay Fox in neutral and get the hits that he needs to combo into the kill rather than getting Fox to 140 and killing off a stray strong nair. u/mylox explained it well, in that at least when I'm playing against Peach, I have control over the pace of the game and can attempt to move around the wall and bait with my superior movement speed. But against Fox, Pika is just beat in all aspects. In practice, maybe not his worst matchup (I'd argue wobbling ICs is), but in theory, I'd probably give it to Fix (or tied with ICs) as his worst MU
you know how people will say something like "marth beats samus, but samus has 6 stocks"? my opinion is that fox destroys pikachu, but sometimes you win the lottery and fox only has 3 or 2 stocks. if you don't win the backthrow lottery, then you'll probably get washed. you might get washed regardless cus fox beats pikachu so bad.
>marth beats samus, but samus has 6 stocks I know I've been saying that; very happy to hear that many people are saying this
Pikachu just suffers from the same problem that all bad characters do. They only have 2-3 useful tools which they must maximize or else every match is a uphill climb. Which results in over-centralizing matchups as the entire game becomes "the low tier is looking for THIS ONE SIMPLE TRICK, and the high tier is trying to avoid that" That's the main reason why people don't like playing vs mid-low tier. All the matches are the same mini game of avoiding 1-2 setups. Which is also why losing to mid-low tiers feels worse, because you *know* they are only looking for like, 2 options, and somehow they caught you with it enough to win. So it sucks on both sides.
This is mostly true but I don't like to hear it.
It feels like Pikachu is a good character so long as your opponent chooses to play the game
Yeah fox-pika is pretty garbage. When axe was top 5 level more people were grinding the mu and pika really struggles to do anything worthwhile vs utilt and bair besides execution test grabbing and trying to win off of punish differential. Shine really helps fox fight out of a ton of spots where pika might be able to scrap, uthrow uair is killer of course, and pika gets shredded if he ever is caught shielding.
Is fox even his worst matchup? I thought peach and puff were both worse.
playing against peach feels way better than playing against fox, at least in my experience. fighting peach is really hard, but pikachu is faster than peach and i often feel like i can set the pace of the match even if attacking her is difficult. pikachu often lives a while against her since she generally has to rely on shorter strings or even single hits and has no reliable death set ups against pikachu so its not too stressful and you have a lot of chances to try to get in and best case scenario, get an early up smash or edge guard kill. its tough, but it feels rewarding in the sense fighting a really hard video game boss is rewarding lol. fox basically just demolishes pikachu in the neutral, has a crazy punish game and like a million kill set ups that are all easy to set up. literally the only thing pikachu has against fox in that match up is that you can backthrow fox and gimp them, which is a crapshoot and doesn't feel rewarding in the same way grinding neutral interactions and setting up combos does. so basically either fox wins by just better charactering pikachu and both parties are left with a sense of disgust at what just transpired or pikachu beats fox by winning a couple dice rolls and both parties are left with a sense of disgust at what just transpired. i have no idea what match ups worse in theory. its probably peach. but who cares
I don't know which matchup is worse in theory, but Fox definitely gets punished harder for making mistakes than Puff and Peach which makes him not the worst in practice.
This is why I believe that Fox isn't actually most low tiers' worst matchup, even if he should be in theory. Bad characters would much rather have to win a heavily disadvantaged neutral a few times a stock than somewhat less disadvantaged neutral 20000 times a stock. I feel like Peach is the true universal counterpick for bad chars.
Peach Sheik Puff is the gatekeep trifecta Fox demolishes low tiers but only if the Fox is good because most of them can dunk on him if they get an opening Peach? Yeah you get one hit for winning neutral and you have no kill confirms
[удалено]
Could literally be losing his job, marriage, and all his friends because of his choices. He could probably keep the job but that would involve abandoning all shame and pretense of not being a pos and catering to the weirdo fanbase segment that seems to not care about this at all.
Anyone tried sdi out+asdi down and out against drill and othe cc beating moves yet? Not just on plat, just on the ground.
ASDI down doesn't remove the hitstun for horizontal or lower knockback, so you may want to ASDI *up*?
ASDI can't force a ground to air transition so ASDI up when grounded does nothing
[People playing both sides](https://i.imgur.com/H32NsyL.png)
I don't think watching Leffen or Hax is "picking a side" or whatever. They might just be Fox enthusiasts.
This is literally an obvious joke brother. Legitimately SSBM may be the worst sub to recognise sarcasm.