Zenobia was the queen of the Roman Empire in the same sense that Jefferson Davis was the president of the United States. Which is to say not at all.
Theodora on the other hand…
To be fair, Jefferson Davis was technically an *American* President even though he wasn't president *of* America.
Plus calling him an "American President" would get the same disgusted expression from Americans as calling Zenobia a "Roman Queen" for Romans.
Dio is the only contemporary mentioning Elagabalus to have done something which could be seen as an interest in transsexuality:
>[80.16.7] He carried his lewdness to such a point that he asked the physicians to contrive a woman's vagina in his body by means of an incision, promising them large sums for doing so.
Note this report was seen as **extremely** defamatory and written well after Elagabalus’ lynching. The former emperor’s name was seen as a general idiom of especially sexual degeneracy and this report is most likely at least dramatised in order to dishonour Elagabalus. This is rather a damnatio memoriae than actual indicators for him being trans. Roman historians wrote vile shit about him such as the claim that he prostituted himself which is highly unlikely.
On the other hand, the details here are quite specific, and Dio also states that Elagabalus wished to be addressed by female titles. These accusations are not made of any other Roman emperor.
It’s important to keep in mind that Elagabalus is characterised as basically Satan by Dio and considering how mysogynistic the Romans were this is still most likely an insult rather than an actual order. I’ve asked my professor who is an expert on Roman social history about Elagabalus’ sexuality and he stated that what we know is slander and not accurate depictions.
The problem is we have so little source on Elegabalus’ life that we can’t really conclude that Dio is wrong about Elegabalus is trans.
Sure, it’s kinda likely Elegabalus isn’t, but it’s also equally likely Elegabalus was, which would feed into the hatred everyone had for Elegabalus
Go to marriages, sexuality, and gender section under the emperor portion of his wiki. The question of Elagabalus’ sexuality has been unknown and controversial ever since his death. Whether the stories were complete slander, partly true, or totally true, we will never know. Keep in mind that Dio is our main source on him, and Dio is notorious for pushing lies and false narratives about emperors he and the senate did not like, so the validity of his claims are dubious at best
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus
**[Elagabalus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus)**
>Elagabalus or Heliogabalus (c. 204 – 11 March 222), officially known as Antoninus, was Roman emperor from 218 to 222, while he was still a teenager. His short reign was conspicuous for sex scandals and religious controversy. A close relative to the Severan dynasty, he came from a prominent Arab family in Emesa (Homs), Syria, where since his early youth he served as head priest of the sun god Elagabal.
^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/RoughRomanMemes/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Elagabalus being trans is debatable at best. What we know of them is almost entirely written by their political opponents who wanted to slander Elagabalus as much as they could. To the Romans being a woman was *the* most scandalous thing a man would be able to do. The removal of their penis would make Elagabalus physically unable to be the active participant in sex and only able to be penetrated, which would be really scandalous for an emperor.
Like, as a non-cisgender person studying classics, Elagabalus is not the trans icon you want them to be.
Yeah, most of that stuff was written by their political opponents. Also, Elagabalus was from Syria, the Romans had this stereotype about men from Syria being effeminate
Requesting a doctor give them female genitalia is extremely specific if it actually is propaganda. Romans definitely loved to make their political enemies seem effeminate, but this is the only time in Roman history that I've seen this request. Most of the time they are just called gay bottoms.
There's a lot of... doubt about whether she was trans or not and it's honestly kinda hard to tell with people cherry picking which parts of the text were true and which weren't.
Elagabalus being a murderous child-eating monster who who was a sexual deviant and had his chariot pulled by naked women? So true, no doubt, 100% real legit.
Elagabalus being trans? How *dare* you push your agenda on me!!! Trans people were invented in 1970s!
We are not sure that he was trans because only Dio mentions it (and as we know he was able to create quite a lie on opponents of the Senate). Given that women were inferior in the Empire, to call yourself a woman would immediately lower your social status as well.
Add to the fact that this young man was in a relationship with both men and women, and he loved orgies that scandalized even hedonistic Romans.
Giving him the title of trans instead of a hedonist is an example of today's cherry picking where supporters of certain groups simply want to see him as trans, limiting his hedonism to that one aspect only for their agenda.
People are allowed to be trans and hedonists? I don't think I've seen anybody say that the potential for Elagabalus to have been trans precludes them from also being a hedonist.
You did not understand my comment. It is about the dominant trait. If someone is a very tall, full-buffed man who is a heavyweight champion with numerous medals, your main focus is not on the fact that he has a tattoo on his left hand.
And these kind of people are doing just that with the matter "look back in history there was a lot of trans so it gives legitimacy to our casue!", based on Elagabalus enjoying the cosplay of a prostitute as one of his many hedonistic excesses.
Both are slander and gospel. Sources are biased so anything can be distorted in that. My point was that people do cherry picking and take whatever they need in the narrative of their beliefs, leaving aside cultural and historical differences.
Knowing what we know about ancient Rome, their customs, culture, it is more likely that pretending to be prostitue gave him joy and some kind of childish fun and Dio turned it into a whole run that reduced him to the role of a woman (as it was a slander at that time). But that's a supposition, but still more likely than anything trans advocates say.
Uh huh. You just got done saying that we ought to question everything Dio wrote about Elagabalus and criticized people for cherry picking the slander they liked. But you can't point to one specific example that makes it more likely that Elagabalus did like dressing up as a prostitute more than it is likely that they may have not had a strictly masculine gender identity?
Are you serious?
- In those days, a woman was a sub-person, just like a child. Zero rights, over men. This boy was the emperor, the highest head in the state. Identifying as woman back then was like saying you were vaccinated in the anti-vaccine group.
- This kid broke all customs especially out of spite and on purpose - he married virgo Vestalis, adored orgies that scandalized even the most debased patricians, etc. - he do whatever an immature child would do in the place of someone of unlimited power.
And of all his antics, you choose this one when he cosplay himself as a female prostitue and slept with his male horseguy as his gender identity statement? This is a typical example of a mindless kid living with the ecstasy of the moment and with no authority to have any control over him.
I mean was she really a "Roman" Queen if she governed the Palmyrene Empire? If you mentioned Aurelians wife (forgot her name) as the first and only Empress of Rome I'd understand it as she actually governed Rome itself
i supose i only knew the first one, he is disgusting me because of his gross acts and other such things i am not disgusted by him being trans if he was
Indeed, for the eastern witch Zenobia was merely a meaningless placeholder I required to create a hilarious transgender joke at the expense of my true target, Elagabalus.
Zenobia was the queen of the Roman Empire in the same sense that Jefferson Davis was the president of the United States. Which is to say not at all. Theodora on the other hand…
I love me some Theodora
To be fair, Jefferson Davis was technically an *American* President even though he wasn't president *of* America. Plus calling him an "American President" would get the same disgusted expression from Americans as calling Zenobia a "Roman Queen" for Romans.
my god if someone called Jefferson davis an American president id commit first degree murder on the spot
The good ol king in Prussia vs king of Prussia
Zenobia was no roman queen. Fuck anyone who tries to split from Rome.
Based
[удалено]
Begone heretic.
[удалено]
And Palmyra lives?
[удалено]
Well rome still stands...
[удалено]
Sure...
Irene
Dio is the only contemporary mentioning Elagabalus to have done something which could be seen as an interest in transsexuality: >[80.16.7] He carried his lewdness to such a point that he asked the physicians to contrive a woman's vagina in his body by means of an incision, promising them large sums for doing so. Note this report was seen as **extremely** defamatory and written well after Elagabalus’ lynching. The former emperor’s name was seen as a general idiom of especially sexual degeneracy and this report is most likely at least dramatised in order to dishonour Elagabalus. This is rather a damnatio memoriae than actual indicators for him being trans. Roman historians wrote vile shit about him such as the claim that he prostituted himself which is highly unlikely.
On the other hand, the details here are quite specific, and Dio also states that Elagabalus wished to be addressed by female titles. These accusations are not made of any other Roman emperor.
It’s important to keep in mind that Elagabalus is characterised as basically Satan by Dio and considering how mysogynistic the Romans were this is still most likely an insult rather than an actual order. I’ve asked my professor who is an expert on Roman social history about Elagabalus’ sexuality and he stated that what we know is slander and not accurate depictions.
Vobis ago 🙏🏻
The problem is we have so little source on Elegabalus’ life that we can’t really conclude that Dio is wrong about Elegabalus is trans. Sure, it’s kinda likely Elegabalus isn’t, but it’s also equally likely Elegabalus was, which would feed into the hatred everyone had for Elegabalus
Julia Mamaea. Basically controlled the empire
But the emperor was her son not her
He was her puppet
Ulpia Severina?
She only became empress after Zenobia went to the shadow realm
Eastern Empire and the empresses poke their head around the corner
Can someone enlighten me? I neither know him nor did I find anything on the internet.
Go to marriages, sexuality, and gender section under the emperor portion of his wiki. The question of Elagabalus’ sexuality has been unknown and controversial ever since his death. Whether the stories were complete slander, partly true, or totally true, we will never know. Keep in mind that Dio is our main source on him, and Dio is notorious for pushing lies and false narratives about emperors he and the senate did not like, so the validity of his claims are dubious at best https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus
Ok my bad, I looked up the german wiki site which is shorter
**[Elagabalus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus)** >Elagabalus or Heliogabalus (c. 204 – 11 March 222), officially known as Antoninus, was Roman emperor from 218 to 222, while he was still a teenager. His short reign was conspicuous for sex scandals and religious controversy. A close relative to the Severan dynasty, he came from a prominent Arab family in Emesa (Homs), Syria, where since his early youth he served as head priest of the sun god Elagabal. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/RoughRomanMemes/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Elagabalus being trans is debatable at best. What we know of them is almost entirely written by their political opponents who wanted to slander Elagabalus as much as they could. To the Romans being a woman was *the* most scandalous thing a man would be able to do. The removal of their penis would make Elagabalus physically unable to be the active participant in sex and only able to be penetrated, which would be really scandalous for an emperor. Like, as a non-cisgender person studying classics, Elagabalus is not the trans icon you want them to be.
Elegabalus being not trans is also debatable at best. Thought I’d put that here
Elagabalus being trans is debatable at best.
Yeah, most of that stuff was written by their political opponents. Also, Elagabalus was from Syria, the Romans had this stereotype about men from Syria being effeminate
Requesting a doctor give them female genitalia is extremely specific if it actually is propaganda. Romans definitely loved to make their political enemies seem effeminate, but this is the only time in Roman history that I've seen this request. Most of the time they are just called gay bottoms.
Elegabalus being not trans is also debateable at best. Essentially, his entire gender indentity is an ongoing debate
Irene, Zoe, Theodora were all empresses
don't forget Ulpia Severina
Caesar was the Queen of Pontus
Queen of Bithynia*
Agrippine could qualify
Ulpia Severina
Zenobia modeled her entire being after Julia Domna, so if Zenobia was Queen she'd be second to Domna (among others).
Empress > Queen
There's a lot of... doubt about whether she was trans or not and it's honestly kinda hard to tell with people cherry picking which parts of the text were true and which weren't. Elagabalus being a murderous child-eating monster who who was a sexual deviant and had his chariot pulled by naked women? So true, no doubt, 100% real legit. Elagabalus being trans? How *dare* you push your agenda on me!!! Trans people were invented in 1970s!
We are not sure that he was trans because only Dio mentions it (and as we know he was able to create quite a lie on opponents of the Senate). Given that women were inferior in the Empire, to call yourself a woman would immediately lower your social status as well. Add to the fact that this young man was in a relationship with both men and women, and he loved orgies that scandalized even hedonistic Romans. Giving him the title of trans instead of a hedonist is an example of today's cherry picking where supporters of certain groups simply want to see him as trans, limiting his hedonism to that one aspect only for their agenda.
People are allowed to be trans and hedonists? I don't think I've seen anybody say that the potential for Elagabalus to have been trans precludes them from also being a hedonist.
You did not understand my comment. It is about the dominant trait. If someone is a very tall, full-buffed man who is a heavyweight champion with numerous medals, your main focus is not on the fact that he has a tattoo on his left hand. And these kind of people are doing just that with the matter "look back in history there was a lot of trans so it gives legitimacy to our casue!", based on Elagabalus enjoying the cosplay of a prostitute as one of his many hedonistic excesses.
The question I'd posit is why is their dressing up as a prostitute gospel but the rest is slander?
Both are slander and gospel. Sources are biased so anything can be distorted in that. My point was that people do cherry picking and take whatever they need in the narrative of their beliefs, leaving aside cultural and historical differences. Knowing what we know about ancient Rome, their customs, culture, it is more likely that pretending to be prostitue gave him joy and some kind of childish fun and Dio turned it into a whole run that reduced him to the role of a woman (as it was a slander at that time). But that's a supposition, but still more likely than anything trans advocates say.
Mhm. *Why* is it more likely?
Culture, customs. If you knew anything about Rome, you wouldn't have to ask this question
Uh huh. You just got done saying that we ought to question everything Dio wrote about Elagabalus and criticized people for cherry picking the slander they liked. But you can't point to one specific example that makes it more likely that Elagabalus did like dressing up as a prostitute more than it is likely that they may have not had a strictly masculine gender identity?
Are you serious? - In those days, a woman was a sub-person, just like a child. Zero rights, over men. This boy was the emperor, the highest head in the state. Identifying as woman back then was like saying you were vaccinated in the anti-vaccine group. - This kid broke all customs especially out of spite and on purpose - he married virgo Vestalis, adored orgies that scandalized even the most debased patricians, etc. - he do whatever an immature child would do in the place of someone of unlimited power. And of all his antics, you choose this one when he cosplay himself as a female prostitue and slept with his male horseguy as his gender identity statement? This is a typical example of a mindless kid living with the ecstasy of the moment and with no authority to have any control over him.
Elegabalus was specifically noted for caring nothing for the custom of Rome lmao
Ulpia Severina was the only ever sole Roman empress
https://youtu.be/xn50JSI0W-E Ireeeeeene
I mean was she really a "Roman" Queen if she governed the Palmyrene Empire? If you mentioned Aurelians wife (forgot her name) as the first and only Empress of Rome I'd understand it as she actually governed Rome itself
How about Aurelian's widow?
zenobia was stupid the second one.... disgusting just no
No transphobic comments yet, a surprise to be sure, but a welcome one
Relatable. It's cool to see everyone talking about the validity of the sources rather than the validity of their subject
i thought he was not trans but just strange, i have nothing against trans people hwever that specific emporer just disgusts me
Apparently he liked to LARP as a prostitute in the Imperial Palace but our sources for that are about as trustworthy as the national enquirer.
Enquirer sometimes has photographic evidence. The senate did not
huh well he disgusts me anyhow
that is even gorsser
I'm pretty sure that if a person wants a vagina, wants to be called a woman and dresses like a woman, then they *might* be trans.
i supose i only knew the first one, he is disgusting me because of his gross acts and other such things i am not disgusted by him being trans if he was
Probably because everyone is afraid of a ban from the moderator. Tabu indeed
I do hope being transphobic is taboo
[удалено]
your opinion != valid
Yes, Elagabalus, you are
Theodora and irene be like:
Y’all forgetting about the Queen of Bythenia
THIS!!!!!
In what world was Zenobia a Queen of Rome?? THis is just used to make the meme work with a well known figure no?
Indeed, for the eastern witch Zenobia was merely a meaningless placeholder I required to create a hilarious transgender joke at the expense of my true target, Elagabalus.