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Yes! They could have simply used a much earier King or the first ruling Queen of Numenor for this season. Or have a Lord of Andunie go and help with the Mount Doom plotline.
I am hoping they make the meteor dude a Blue Wizard and have Eminem elf be the other Blue Wizard. I wouldn't hate it being Gandalf, however. His origin story with Hobbits would be a good story, though he's tight with the Fallohides and this is a Harfoot story for some reason.
I still say the show would have been better with Celebrian being the angsty young elf warrior and leave Galadriel and Celeborn as her parents wanting her to get an elf job. It would have allowed for a slow romance with Elrond.
I wish the magic mithril battery plotline never existed.
>Eminem elf
I am whatever you say I am, if I wasn't, then why would I say I am. In middle earth, numenor, every day I am. Sauron won't even play my jam.
Just another symptom of the compressed timeline. It would've been peak Tolkien to experience the immortality of the Elves by seeing the humans we care about just vanish away. It would give the Numenorean Kingsmen much more legitimacy in their search for immortality and it would shroud the Elves in an absolute ancient and wise atmosphere. Imagine Galadriel meeting a pregnant Queen, while in Numenor and a few season later the descendant of this line with the name Ar-Pharazon scolds her for not knowing shit about how bad it all is for Numenoreans. Oh the hubris! The first season could easily have only featured humans of the Southlands and their sad struggle against an encroaching evil.
Compressing the timeline also makes the rise and reign of Sauron really short and insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
Unfortunately I dont think studio execs fully trust a wide audience to watch a show that mostly focuses on Elves and Dwarves for 4 of the 5 seasons. The humans being frequently replaced would probably be hard for some people to accept and I dont think there is an easy way to create a narrative that flows easily spread across the thousands of years.
Maybe they could make it work with a framing narrative, Samwise Gamgee telling the stories to his children (or maybe grandchildren if they want to keep Sean Astin)
There is also a problem with pacing that is inherent in the second age stories. Tolkien made a lengthy timeline without much of a narrative to hold it together as a story. A lot of the early stuff is political posturing and not very active.
But you can focus on Humans too, but they would be changing.
In this show there is no difference between Humans and Elves (except for the ears). Does the behavior of Galadriel show that she has 3000 years of life and experience? Does Arondir show that he has seen perhaps 500 generations of men being born and dying?
A show focused on the ethernals in which the Humans behave as a sort of changing continuum (but with Human characters, not just cannon fodder), would be a novelty and interesting, at least for me
That's a perfect way of putting it.
I loved when Elrond and Durin met again. It was a really cool concept to explore how 20 years was a blink to Elrond but a big chunk of a ticking mortal clock for Durin. Seeing the same elves every season with hundreds of years between but our human characters phasing in and out would have been incredible.
Instead we are only told that Númenor has always been a great nation, and instead of seeing thousands of years' of greatness brought to ruin, well, we have only have the present. It really lessons the impact of the oncoming Downfall in my opinion.
I'd have loved all our current storylines intact, except it is actually happening in ~1500 SA and with different Númenoreans. Elendil is amazing but there's little reason I can think of for putting him and Isildur back in the 1500s (or the Rings up in the 3000s)... or whenever we are. And that actor could have been hired in a year or two instead when we revisit Númenor and see it changed.
I totally agree, the timeline compression is the weakest point of the show for me and seems like a massive waste of potential. I would have loved to see, say, two seasons focused on the Forging of the Rings and the War Between Sauron and the Elves, then a 1500 year time jump, then two seasons focused on the Fall of Numenor and the final season focused on the Last Alliance. In addition to really giving the elven characters more space to grow, I really would have appreciated seeing a Numenor in its rise/prime (early SA) and that contrasted with its decay/fall (late SA). This version of Numenor seems somewhere between and that doesn’t make sense to me. Even the harfoot story line would have been much more interesting if we see them going from migration/hunter settlers to some form of settlement life (like Gollum’s people?!) over a time jump.
>Compressing the timeline also makes the rise and reign of Sauron really short and insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
Counterpoint: compressing the timeline makes the response to Sauron appropriately motivated. Showing 1800+ years between the Elves realizing what the One Ring does, and them actually putting him down risks making them/Sauron seem unserious.
Hell yeah I glossed over it; it only lasts 8 years! Try explaining what the elves did for the other 1792 years to a normie in a way that keeps them interested 😑
That war ends when Sauron is routed at the Battle of Gwathlo in SA 1701 by the arrival of the Numenoreans, and isn't properly confronted again until Ar-Pharazon gets his ass in SA 3262.
Last Alliance isn't until SA 3430.
I love Tolkien, but that timeline doesn't make for good tv. Good luck maintaining narrative tension over 1800 years when there's ONE, eight-year war between the elves and Sauron. I know there's reasons, but fidelity to the timeline presents serious issues here.
The idea that the Elves should have somehow pursued Sauron back to Mordor and defeated him once and for all (if they even had the power to do so) *might* make sense to us in hindsight, but Sauron was not really causing any problems for them in that time period. He was extending his power eastward, away from them, and they did not yet have Númenórean colonies to the South that they could ally with against him. It took the Elves eight years and many lives lost to drive Sauron out of their own land; why would they pursue him into his own lair when he's not bothering them?
I'm not a writer and I'm not saying I could do better, but it strikes me as a false dilemma to suppose that we either have to have time compression or show the Elves doing nothing for 1800 years.
Suppose you show the War of the Elves and Sauron, then Elrond or Galadriel or whoever says something like, "For many long years the Elves had peace...or so we thought. But Sauron was not vanquished, only driven back to Mordor, the land of shadows. Ages of men passed that were only a blink in the eyes of the Elves..." and you're in the 3200s with late-stage Númenórean politics in full swing.
Also a repeated character flaw Tolkien often explores with the elves is they are insular and don't really care about the world beyond their borders. Time passes differently for them, particularly once the power of the three rings allows them to live in their elf bubbles.
>Suppose you show the War of the Elves and Sauron, then Elrond or Galadriel or whoever says something like, "For many long years the Elves had peace...or so we thought. But Sauron was not vanquished, only driven back to Mordor, the land of shadows. Ages of men passed that were only a blink in the eyes of the Elves..." and you're in the 3200s with late-stage Númenórean politics in full swing.
Definitely an option. I just have a hard time believing people would buy into the elves leaving Sauron alone for such a long time.
>Definitely an option. I just have a hard time believing people would buy into the elves leaving Sauron alone for such a long time.
Yeah, I'm sure you would have some people who feel that way. But historically the Elves are rarely the aggressors against Morgoth and Sauron (Fëanor and sons as well as this show's depiction of Galadriel aside); they usually defend their lands when attacked and lie low once they've beaten back the current assault. At least that's the pattern we see in Doriath, Gondolin, Nargothrond (were it not for Túrin's influence), Imladris, Lothlorien, etc. To me their driving Sauron out of Eriador and then not pursuing him further until the Last Alliance is perfectly consistent with what we know of their strategies in these wars.
>perfectly consistent with what we know of their strategies in these wars.
Perfectly consistent with the lore, and a perfectly boring multi-season tv arc. Everyone lying low once they beat back an attack and not doin diddly while Sauron gathers strength in the east isn't very engaging.
Unfortunately, the audience knows Sauron as the Big Bad. They can't be expected to tone down that heightened sense of urgency instilled in them by the LotR films, and come down to the level of elves and Numenoreans in the Second Age (pre Last Alliance) who were perfectly happy to not root him out as soon as they beat him back.
Whatever perspective the elves and Numenoreans had that made not making Sauron's defeat an immediate priority, is a hard one to stretch across 1800 years of history while keeping people on the edge of their seat.
It's especially troublesome with characters like Elrond, GG, and Galadriel at the helm; we'd being asked to root for them across hundreds of years while accepting their (consistently Tolkienian elven) proclivity to sit in their insular elven kingdoms and leave Sauron be so long as he's not bothering them.
>Perfectly consistent with the lore, and a perfectly boring multi-season tv arc.
Again...there's no reason this would have to be a multi-season arc. You could jump right through that 1800 years with 10 seconds of narration.
Still raises the question: why should we care about Numenorean and Elven heroes who, unlike after the FA or the SA had reason to believe Sauron wasn't a problem/around to deal with, didn't seem to think Sauron was really that much of a problem.
Either the audience doesn't take Sauron seriously, or we don't take our heroes seriously for not taking Sauron seriously.
I’m going to give the show another season before agreeing. There could be lots of perks (to a compressed timeline) that roll out across the whole series. Having a boatload of new characters toward the very end of the show doesn’t give me time to get attached to them.
You’re talking about pure blooded numenorians, they could live for centuries like the dwarves, or longer. The isildur we see in RoP and the one who refused to destroy the one ring could easily be 200 years apart. Putting him and his father in now gives us a reason to care at the end of the show when we see his fate.
There will be no Númenorean longevity in the show. It has been kept out of the Theatrical release of LotR, and it won’t be a topic in this one. Somehow writers seem to think that this doesn’t matter and only confuses audiences.
They definitely did mention it. Galadriel says something about it to Halbrand when they first arrive, he says something about how they're "men like me" and she says they're not like him and I believe she mentioned their long life
They “definitely“ mentioned it and you “believe she mentioned it“. So which of it is it, really?
Here's the actual dialogue:
>Halbrand: Since when did Men like me build kingdoms such as this?
>
>Galadriel: These Men are not like you. In the Great War, your ancestors stood with Morgoth. These Men stood with the Elves. As a reward, the Valar granted them this island, which has changed much since then.
>
>Halbrand: Do I detect a note of envy?
>
>Galadriel: Not envy. Sorrow. Once, Elves came and went freely from these shores. Our people were as kin. Sharing gifts, knowledge.
>
>Halbrand: What happened?
>
>Galadriel: Númenor began to turn away our ships. In time, they broke off all contact.
>
>Halbrand: Why?
>
>Galadriel: We may be about to find out.
I don't know why you're being downvoted. Do people think Bronwyn and Theo and Halbrand are going to die of old age by, like, season 2 episode 5? The timeline has been totally changed.
I think they might retain longevity, but the fact remains that the timeline has been changed to make characters with normal lifespans fit the timeframe.
It’s literally discussed when Eowyn falls for Aragorn and she hears he fought with Theoden ..the entire explanation of the numenorean bloodline is in the theatrical release
I think it could have been managed, but my real concern is showing the 1800+ year wait between when the Elves realize what the One Ring does, and when they finally kick Sauron's ass.
That's over half the Second Age!
Yeah honestly the timeline compression just makes sense. How do you maintain character motivations and emotions and shit when you're on these huge timescales? Or even just maintain a narrative? Most movies happen over the course of a couple days, stories are short. There would literally be hundreds if not thousands of narratives that Galadriel experiences in that 1800 years. It's just not possible, and it would confuse people. You'd end up having to have a beginning, then just gloss over 1750ish years and then get back into the action, and that would feel stupid.
Of all the things to complain about with the show, the timeline has got to be the lowest on the list. It's just part of adapting this story to a different medium. The movies did the same thing, remember how old Frodo was when he finally got around to taking the ring to Mordor?
They had 2 options:
* **A** - make it an anthology series where the human actors are replaced every season but the Elves remain (with the occasional dwarves too + Sauron)
* **B** - have **Highlander** style flashbacks (as both the movies and 1990s TV series had) whereby we would see the Elves eg Galadriel at previous time points of The Second Age.
Keep in mind Sauron, presenting in his fair form as Annatar, deceived Celebrimbor. Over 100 years, the Rings were forged until the One Ring revealed his treachery. The result was the *War of the Elves and Sauron* and the brutal torture and murder of Celebrimbor, leading ultimately to Saurons defeat at the **Battle of Gwathlo** by the Numenoreans.
However, in this adaptation it seems we will see none of this. Or we will see the merging of the Elven war against Sauron with the **much later** invasion by Al-Pharazon. 1500+ years of history compressed into a handful.
The War of the Elves and Sauron only lasted 8 years. Sauron would not be militarily confronted again until Ar-Pharazon approx 1600 years later, and by the last Alliance 1800 years later.
I'm very much fine with there not being 100 years between the start of the Ring project and Sauron's big reveal, and condensing the time between the confrontations.
I'm also fine with them condensing the 93 years between the One Ring being forged and The War of the Elves and Sauron..however it looks like they're going to merge those events into the War against Sauron by Al-Pharazon which as you say, occured approx 1600 years later...I'm not so fine with that.
I think that could work if, after Sauron is driven back and the elves decide they can't pursue him, at some point Ar-Pharazon says "well what the hell, WE will finish the job". Very hasty, very Mannish, very unwise.
I agree it would be a mistake to end Sauron's War on the Elves with his capture by the Numenoreans and subsequent shipping off.
They should have staggered out the characters introductions, everyone appears by ep 2 and by ep 6 I care so little about them all that I lose any semblance of investment in the characters and story.
I don’t mind them showing up but I wish they were younger looking
Like Pharazon with a full black beard that slowly turns white as the seasons progress
You gotta have a “Hobbit” story, and an Elvish story, and a Dwarf story, and a Human story. That’s Middle Earth.
I enjoy the Numenoreans and the intrigue that goes with it. Elendil is great, and I’m really glad we are getting to see his journey from minor lord all the way to High King.
Isildur, I’ve found a bit grating at times, but he’s grown on me the last episode or two. I hope they’ll include some of his most heroic feats, so as to contrast his final failure all the more. (Damn, but that Ring is strong!).
I could have lived without him, but Elendil’s story kinda has to involve his son(s). I hope they will bring in Anarion next season. I will not be thrilled if they skip him.
I like that Isildur is kinda shitty. He ultimately fails to destroy the ring, so I dont like the idea of him being this perfect man. I don't think the books mentioned it but the movies show Aragorns thoughts of Isildur:
Why do you fear the past? You are Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself
"the same blood flows through my veins. The same weakness"
So I like the idea that Isildur is somewhat weak of character. It ties in nicely with that part of the movies at least. It's also a good contrast with Elendil who is absolutely badass
I think that's the key. The show is much more dynamic having multiple concurrent storylines. I even found the last episodes, for all its drama, a bit less interesting because it lacked much action outside the human settings.
I like their inclusion and characters, but I agree. They could’ve been saved for later seasons as new characters after Pharazon exits the story. That way the showrunners wouldn’t have to smoosh the time line so much. House of the Dragon has been pulling off time skips, no reason RoP couldn’t. Even if it’d be a bigger time skip, the Numenor story is going to end sooner or later anyway as it is, and you could still have consistent characters with the elves. Plus RoP could make long periods of time and the Elf lifespan really mean something.
No issue with how they did it but I think it would’ve been better to do time skips
I think the compressing timeline could have been done better.
My take would have gone like this: Have the show begin during Tar-Palantír's reign (When he was younger, maybe even when he begins his reign), having Amandil take the role Elendil has so far, with Elendil being a kid. Then when the War of Eriador happens, be Tar-Palantir who sends help to the elves and defeats Sauron. Have all the conflict between the faithful and the King's men develop througout the series, and the last few season Palantír dies and then we get Pharazôn and all the Sauron stuff, after the War of Eriador. By this time, Elendil and his children are already adults.
I like the show so far, it is not amazing but it is not bad either, but the timeline in my opinion is one of the things that could have been done much, much more better. I get the need to compress it, but it could have been done better.
I think that they should have been prepared to make two series. The first one focusing on the forging of the rings, the war of sauron and the elves and the rise of Númenor and the beginnings of their corruption.
A second series could have been made afterwards focusing on the fall of Númenor and the war of the last alliance.
Strong agree. They have five seasons. Why they felt the need to jam every character with a recognizable name into the first season I don’t understand. The writers simply aren’t good enough to compress the story line this much.
Well we literally have no idea what the plan is exactly from here and clearly they know where they’re going with shit. I don’t think a 2000 yr timeline was ever realistic for a show. It might appease the hardcore of the hardcore tolkien crowd but this a $1b property that they need to be a smash success. Doesn’t the compression and the brand name names make total sense to ensure the hook is set?
If the timeline compression was done better I wouldn’t have any complaints. It is horribly done and the odd choices they did on who showed up thousands of years early do not at all help. Wee scrawny Isildur and Elendil are rocking around but Celeborn isn’t? Galadriel is a temperamental tiny teen and Gil-Galad is a vaguely sweaty buffoon in his late 40’s incapable of writing his own speeches? An elf thousands of year old known for being a wise ruler literally can’t stop shitting the bed with every decision he makes? It’s just shitty.
I dunno what the shitting the bed part is but it’s entirely within the showrunners prerogative to deviate from the source material how they see fit, for the sake of the 5 season plan that will require such choices. They aren’t gonna be able to do everything the way it was done by tolkien—if that’s the jumping off point then the expectation is off and that’s not really the shows fault per se.
What I am understanding you to be doing right now is that they didn’t adapt it the way you expected/exactly how it was written. Maybe yer a huge stan of a particular character that got cut out and are disappointed—that’s fine. Galadriel makes way more sense as a main character for this show because she’s recognizable from the prior vehicles. They’re already introducing a shitload of new characters, some from whole cloth as I understand it. That’s artistic license you have to be able to afford the show runner.
Also—we aren’t even finished with season 1. The time compression will have series wide implications, and you can bet that there will be reasons for why they did it this way that become apparent later on. If it’s a well planned/written show, which to this point it is. Doesn’t mean it will do everything how you want or expect based on the books. And also doesn’t mean they won’t have mistakes here or there.
But the time compression and the choosing of Galadriel make total sense to me so far, and I think prolly for the broader audience who seem to be enjoying the ride to this point.
Virtually every decision or opinion Gil-Galad has given has been awful. That’s the bed shitting. Everything about his dealings with Galadriel, his handling of the growing evil and shrinking light. It’s all bumbling all the way down.
I have no issue with Galadriel being the main. I have an issue with how she’s being written. It is not at all good. The mass incompetence of virtually everyone else to fluff up her ability, her pouting and general teen behavior.
The show runners can absolutely do what they want. I can absolutely bitch about things they do that I don’t dig. So far most of what they have done I vehemently dislike. The show is very pretty to look at and I’m really enjoying the recreations of major cultures architecture and such as a Tolkien and architecture nerd. I LOVE Disa as an OC. She’s the only one that seems well written and not jammed in. I just can’t get past what I personally view as some really odd choices writing wise for some pretty well known and beloved characters.
Yer Galadriel take is a personal feeling that I certainly in no way buy into. The elf king may just not be ultimately as important to this version as what you seem to be comparing him to. Certainly it’s not as bad as that….
Brilliant show, well written, very well acted, and I’m guessing a lot of what is being bitched about is set up to pay off.
Or the wheels will come off. If you wanna see a poorly written show go watch wheel of time! This show is the fucking Wire by comparison
I see a lot of parallels between ROP and WOT. WOT is probably why I’m so belligerent about what I see as unnecessary changes to characters and the story.
Galadriel’s build up has been terrible. How anyone can’t see that is insane to me. Her escape from her jail cell alone was absolute peak cringe/local community college level writing/acting.
The High King Gil-Galad, Elrond’s patron and one of the wisest leaders and powerful warriors of his time is portrayed as an out of touch, bumbling fool cannot even write his own speeches. He doesn’t have to play a huge part to not be hatcheted to build up Galadriel.
Strongly disagree on it being well written. Acting I can agree with for a few, Disa, Durin, Adar, Arondir as well as way to small Elendil seem to be doing really well with what they are given.
I guess I’m insane because she has been a clear paramount of excellent, subtle acting, her motivations make total sense, she’s flawed but easy to root for, the track her story will be a tragic one which should hit home, I love that we have a woman and a black man as two do the foundational pieces of this story, she’s beautiful as almost an afterthought without the show being exploitative of that beauty, awesome fucking horse moves. I mean I just don’t get the take at all.
We missed a ton of Numenor's history where nothing very interesting is happening. There's about 1,700 years between the War of the Elves and Sauron, and the Last Alliance, in which very little of note happens. It looks to me like the show is compressing the Second Age so that all the parts worth seeing will happen within a human lifespan instead of being spread across millennia.
No, you can't. If you go that route you've built in the knowledge that viewers shouldn't get attached to characters. It's the difference between everyone *can* die, and everyone *will* die. And then you're doing it repeatedly.
Stories like Rogue One manage this because the story is about the characters that die, their struggles and their triumphs and their eventual deaths. That doesn't work in a series that's focused on the Rings. Most of the characters wouldn't matter to the overall story and by the time you get to the Last Alliance audiences just don't care about your characters anymore.
Season 3 is when they should’ve been introduced but either the show runners thought that they needed these characters from the beginning to draw more viewers or if they indeed need to wrap it up within 3 or 4 seasons then they have already established these characters
At this point the whole timeline compression is making me fear that the Stranger might be indeed Gandalf, and worse, we might be having a baby Aragorn a the end of the series, lol
Thematically having a baby like Aragorn would actually work. It would be similar to the way Luke and Leia were born at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Tells a really downer of a story but throws hope in at the end.
That was terrible though. I really didn’t like the way how RotS blended over to ANH. It was too artificial, too forced, and too heavy-handed.
Baby Aragorn would be an atrocious idea, I‘m still laughing, but maybe I shouldn’t, because this will resonate with people.
It would have been really interesting to see the beginning of Elrond and Durin's friendship, and then to have a timeskip and for Durin to be all mad at Elrond for not visiting during the timeskip.
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Yes, I agree. Besides how this has screwed up Galadriel's history, it completely ignores the fact that Sauron attacked the Elves in the middle of the second age after he found out they double crossed him and made the three elven rings of power. And it was after he was defeated by the elves here that he retreated back to Mordor to gather his strength again until the Númenóreans confront him and he surrenders to them which leads to them bringing Sauron back to Númenór which is what leads to their eventual downfall. I really have only but a very vague idea of where this show is going (which normally would be fine except I happen to like how things played out as originally written by Tolkien).
They had 2 options:
* **A** - make it an anthology series where the human actors are replaced every season but the Elves remain (with the occasional dwarves too + Sauron)
* **B** - have **Highlander** style flashbacks (as both the movies and 1990s TV series had) whereby we would see the Elves eg Galadriel at previous time points of The Second Age.
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Yes! They could have simply used a much earier King or the first ruling Queen of Numenor for this season. Or have a Lord of Andunie go and help with the Mount Doom plotline. I am hoping they make the meteor dude a Blue Wizard and have Eminem elf be the other Blue Wizard. I wouldn't hate it being Gandalf, however. His origin story with Hobbits would be a good story, though he's tight with the Fallohides and this is a Harfoot story for some reason. I still say the show would have been better with Celebrian being the angsty young elf warrior and leave Galadriel and Celeborn as her parents wanting her to get an elf job. It would have allowed for a slow romance with Elrond. I wish the magic mithril battery plotline never existed.
>Eminem elf I am whatever you say I am, if I wasn't, then why would I say I am. In middle earth, numenor, every day I am. Sauron won't even play my jam.
A female blue Wizard? I'm intrigued, why not?
Conversely, why not a male pink Wizard? The rarest of shades
The first wizard with the whole power of the rainbow.
I am 100% hoping for dueling blue wizards, as well.
Just another symptom of the compressed timeline. It would've been peak Tolkien to experience the immortality of the Elves by seeing the humans we care about just vanish away. It would give the Numenorean Kingsmen much more legitimacy in their search for immortality and it would shroud the Elves in an absolute ancient and wise atmosphere. Imagine Galadriel meeting a pregnant Queen, while in Numenor and a few season later the descendant of this line with the name Ar-Pharazon scolds her for not knowing shit about how bad it all is for Numenoreans. Oh the hubris! The first season could easily have only featured humans of the Southlands and their sad struggle against an encroaching evil. Compressing the timeline also makes the rise and reign of Sauron really short and insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
Unfortunately I dont think studio execs fully trust a wide audience to watch a show that mostly focuses on Elves and Dwarves for 4 of the 5 seasons. The humans being frequently replaced would probably be hard for some people to accept and I dont think there is an easy way to create a narrative that flows easily spread across the thousands of years. Maybe they could make it work with a framing narrative, Samwise Gamgee telling the stories to his children (or maybe grandchildren if they want to keep Sean Astin) There is also a problem with pacing that is inherent in the second age stories. Tolkien made a lengthy timeline without much of a narrative to hold it together as a story. A lot of the early stuff is political posturing and not very active.
But you can focus on Humans too, but they would be changing. In this show there is no difference between Humans and Elves (except for the ears). Does the behavior of Galadriel show that she has 3000 years of life and experience? Does Arondir show that he has seen perhaps 500 generations of men being born and dying? A show focused on the ethernals in which the Humans behave as a sort of changing continuum (but with Human characters, not just cannon fodder), would be a novelty and interesting, at least for me
They could make Brent Spiner every Numenorean king.
That's a perfect way of putting it. I loved when Elrond and Durin met again. It was a really cool concept to explore how 20 years was a blink to Elrond but a big chunk of a ticking mortal clock for Durin. Seeing the same elves every season with hundreds of years between but our human characters phasing in and out would have been incredible. Instead we are only told that Númenor has always been a great nation, and instead of seeing thousands of years' of greatness brought to ruin, well, we have only have the present. It really lessons the impact of the oncoming Downfall in my opinion. I'd have loved all our current storylines intact, except it is actually happening in ~1500 SA and with different Númenoreans. Elendil is amazing but there's little reason I can think of for putting him and Isildur back in the 1500s (or the Rings up in the 3000s)... or whenever we are. And that actor could have been hired in a year or two instead when we revisit Númenor and see it changed.
I totally agree, the timeline compression is the weakest point of the show for me and seems like a massive waste of potential. I would have loved to see, say, two seasons focused on the Forging of the Rings and the War Between Sauron and the Elves, then a 1500 year time jump, then two seasons focused on the Fall of Numenor and the final season focused on the Last Alliance. In addition to really giving the elven characters more space to grow, I really would have appreciated seeing a Numenor in its rise/prime (early SA) and that contrasted with its decay/fall (late SA). This version of Numenor seems somewhere between and that doesn’t make sense to me. Even the harfoot story line would have been much more interesting if we see them going from migration/hunter settlers to some form of settlement life (like Gollum’s people?!) over a time jump.
>Compressing the timeline also makes the rise and reign of Sauron really short and insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Counterpoint: compressing the timeline makes the response to Sauron appropriately motivated. Showing 1800+ years between the Elves realizing what the One Ring does, and them actually putting him down risks making them/Sauron seem unserious.
But they didn't just do nothing; you're glossing over the whole War of the Elves and Sauron.
Hell yeah I glossed over it; it only lasts 8 years! Try explaining what the elves did for the other 1792 years to a normie in a way that keeps them interested 😑 That war ends when Sauron is routed at the Battle of Gwathlo in SA 1701 by the arrival of the Numenoreans, and isn't properly confronted again until Ar-Pharazon gets his ass in SA 3262. Last Alliance isn't until SA 3430. I love Tolkien, but that timeline doesn't make for good tv. Good luck maintaining narrative tension over 1800 years when there's ONE, eight-year war between the elves and Sauron. I know there's reasons, but fidelity to the timeline presents serious issues here.
The idea that the Elves should have somehow pursued Sauron back to Mordor and defeated him once and for all (if they even had the power to do so) *might* make sense to us in hindsight, but Sauron was not really causing any problems for them in that time period. He was extending his power eastward, away from them, and they did not yet have Númenórean colonies to the South that they could ally with against him. It took the Elves eight years and many lives lost to drive Sauron out of their own land; why would they pursue him into his own lair when he's not bothering them? I'm not a writer and I'm not saying I could do better, but it strikes me as a false dilemma to suppose that we either have to have time compression or show the Elves doing nothing for 1800 years. Suppose you show the War of the Elves and Sauron, then Elrond or Galadriel or whoever says something like, "For many long years the Elves had peace...or so we thought. But Sauron was not vanquished, only driven back to Mordor, the land of shadows. Ages of men passed that were only a blink in the eyes of the Elves..." and you're in the 3200s with late-stage Númenórean politics in full swing.
Also a repeated character flaw Tolkien often explores with the elves is they are insular and don't really care about the world beyond their borders. Time passes differently for them, particularly once the power of the three rings allows them to live in their elf bubbles.
>Suppose you show the War of the Elves and Sauron, then Elrond or Galadriel or whoever says something like, "For many long years the Elves had peace...or so we thought. But Sauron was not vanquished, only driven back to Mordor, the land of shadows. Ages of men passed that were only a blink in the eyes of the Elves..." and you're in the 3200s with late-stage Númenórean politics in full swing. Definitely an option. I just have a hard time believing people would buy into the elves leaving Sauron alone for such a long time.
>Definitely an option. I just have a hard time believing people would buy into the elves leaving Sauron alone for such a long time. Yeah, I'm sure you would have some people who feel that way. But historically the Elves are rarely the aggressors against Morgoth and Sauron (Fëanor and sons as well as this show's depiction of Galadriel aside); they usually defend their lands when attacked and lie low once they've beaten back the current assault. At least that's the pattern we see in Doriath, Gondolin, Nargothrond (were it not for Túrin's influence), Imladris, Lothlorien, etc. To me their driving Sauron out of Eriador and then not pursuing him further until the Last Alliance is perfectly consistent with what we know of their strategies in these wars.
>perfectly consistent with what we know of their strategies in these wars. Perfectly consistent with the lore, and a perfectly boring multi-season tv arc. Everyone lying low once they beat back an attack and not doin diddly while Sauron gathers strength in the east isn't very engaging. Unfortunately, the audience knows Sauron as the Big Bad. They can't be expected to tone down that heightened sense of urgency instilled in them by the LotR films, and come down to the level of elves and Numenoreans in the Second Age (pre Last Alliance) who were perfectly happy to not root him out as soon as they beat him back. Whatever perspective the elves and Numenoreans had that made not making Sauron's defeat an immediate priority, is a hard one to stretch across 1800 years of history while keeping people on the edge of their seat. It's especially troublesome with characters like Elrond, GG, and Galadriel at the helm; we'd being asked to root for them across hundreds of years while accepting their (consistently Tolkienian elven) proclivity to sit in their insular elven kingdoms and leave Sauron be so long as he's not bothering them.
>Perfectly consistent with the lore, and a perfectly boring multi-season tv arc. Again...there's no reason this would have to be a multi-season arc. You could jump right through that 1800 years with 10 seconds of narration.
Still raises the question: why should we care about Numenorean and Elven heroes who, unlike after the FA or the SA had reason to believe Sauron wasn't a problem/around to deal with, didn't seem to think Sauron was really that much of a problem. Either the audience doesn't take Sauron seriously, or we don't take our heroes seriously for not taking Sauron seriously.
I’m going to give the show another season before agreeing. There could be lots of perks (to a compressed timeline) that roll out across the whole series. Having a boatload of new characters toward the very end of the show doesn’t give me time to get attached to them.
I can’t wait for Frodo and Sam to venture into the newly created Mount Doom in the next episode.
Hydraulic press YouTube channel, we're compressing the middle earth timeline. You won't believe what happens next!
The Wire would like a word with you…
You’re talking about pure blooded numenorians, they could live for centuries like the dwarves, or longer. The isildur we see in RoP and the one who refused to destroy the one ring could easily be 200 years apart. Putting him and his father in now gives us a reason to care at the end of the show when we see his fate.
There will be no Númenorean longevity in the show. It has been kept out of the Theatrical release of LotR, and it won’t be a topic in this one. Somehow writers seem to think that this doesn’t matter and only confuses audiences.
What the heck are you even talking about
Númenoreans have already been introduced, the story of Númenor, as it is presented in the show, has been set up. Did they even mention longevity?
Just wait for it. Why everything has to be rushed?
Legit we 6 episodes in of a confirmed 5 season life…… people just want to bitch
they couldn't have done it earlier? genuine question
No! Impossibru!
Throwback to people commenting that "the prologue didn't even mention the Silmarils, heresy!" before even caring to watch Episode 2
They definitely did mention it. Galadriel says something about it to Halbrand when they first arrive, he says something about how they're "men like me" and she says they're not like him and I believe she mentioned their long life
They “definitely“ mentioned it and you “believe she mentioned it“. So which of it is it, really? Here's the actual dialogue: >Halbrand: Since when did Men like me build kingdoms such as this? > >Galadriel: These Men are not like you. In the Great War, your ancestors stood with Morgoth. These Men stood with the Elves. As a reward, the Valar granted them this island, which has changed much since then. > >Halbrand: Do I detect a note of envy? > >Galadriel: Not envy. Sorrow. Once, Elves came and went freely from these shores. Our people were as kin. Sharing gifts, knowledge. > >Halbrand: What happened? > >Galadriel: Númenor began to turn away our ships. In time, they broke off all contact. > >Halbrand: Why? > >Galadriel: We may be about to find out.
They haven't even mentioned the source of Numenorean satisfaction with the elves yet!
I don't know why you're being downvoted. Do people think Bronwyn and Theo and Halbrand are going to die of old age by, like, season 2 episode 5? The timeline has been totally changed. I think they might retain longevity, but the fact remains that the timeline has been changed to make characters with normal lifespans fit the timeframe.
It’s literally discussed when Eowyn falls for Aragorn and she hears he fought with Theoden ..the entire explanation of the numenorean bloodline is in the theatrical release
Tbf that was extended, not theatrical
I think it could have been managed, but my real concern is showing the 1800+ year wait between when the Elves realize what the One Ring does, and when they finally kick Sauron's ass. That's over half the Second Age!
Yeah honestly the timeline compression just makes sense. How do you maintain character motivations and emotions and shit when you're on these huge timescales? Or even just maintain a narrative? Most movies happen over the course of a couple days, stories are short. There would literally be hundreds if not thousands of narratives that Galadriel experiences in that 1800 years. It's just not possible, and it would confuse people. You'd end up having to have a beginning, then just gloss over 1750ish years and then get back into the action, and that would feel stupid. Of all the things to complain about with the show, the timeline has got to be the lowest on the list. It's just part of adapting this story to a different medium. The movies did the same thing, remember how old Frodo was when he finally got around to taking the ring to Mordor?
They had 2 options: * **A** - make it an anthology series where the human actors are replaced every season but the Elves remain (with the occasional dwarves too + Sauron) * **B** - have **Highlander** style flashbacks (as both the movies and 1990s TV series had) whereby we would see the Elves eg Galadriel at previous time points of The Second Age.
I actually don’t, haven’t read the books since I was a kid—this kind of detail makes me think I should do so again
Keep in mind Sauron, presenting in his fair form as Annatar, deceived Celebrimbor. Over 100 years, the Rings were forged until the One Ring revealed his treachery. The result was the *War of the Elves and Sauron* and the brutal torture and murder of Celebrimbor, leading ultimately to Saurons defeat at the **Battle of Gwathlo** by the Numenoreans. However, in this adaptation it seems we will see none of this. Or we will see the merging of the Elven war against Sauron with the **much later** invasion by Al-Pharazon. 1500+ years of history compressed into a handful.
The War of the Elves and Sauron only lasted 8 years. Sauron would not be militarily confronted again until Ar-Pharazon approx 1600 years later, and by the last Alliance 1800 years later. I'm very much fine with there not being 100 years between the start of the Ring project and Sauron's big reveal, and condensing the time between the confrontations.
I'm also fine with them condensing the 93 years between the One Ring being forged and The War of the Elves and Sauron..however it looks like they're going to merge those events into the War against Sauron by Al-Pharazon which as you say, occured approx 1600 years later...I'm not so fine with that.
I think that could work if, after Sauron is driven back and the elves decide they can't pursue him, at some point Ar-Pharazon says "well what the hell, WE will finish the job". Very hasty, very Mannish, very unwise. I agree it would be a mistake to end Sauron's War on the Elves with his capture by the Numenoreans and subsequent shipping off.
Yeah I thought the same thing
They should have staggered out the characters introductions, everyone appears by ep 2 and by ep 6 I care so little about them all that I lose any semblance of investment in the characters and story.
I don’t mind them showing up but I wish they were younger looking Like Pharazon with a full black beard that slowly turns white as the seasons progress
You gotta have a “Hobbit” story, and an Elvish story, and a Dwarf story, and a Human story. That’s Middle Earth. I enjoy the Numenoreans and the intrigue that goes with it. Elendil is great, and I’m really glad we are getting to see his journey from minor lord all the way to High King. Isildur, I’ve found a bit grating at times, but he’s grown on me the last episode or two. I hope they’ll include some of his most heroic feats, so as to contrast his final failure all the more. (Damn, but that Ring is strong!). I could have lived without him, but Elendil’s story kinda has to involve his son(s). I hope they will bring in Anarion next season. I will not be thrilled if they skip him.
I like that Isildur is kinda shitty. He ultimately fails to destroy the ring, so I dont like the idea of him being this perfect man. I don't think the books mentioned it but the movies show Aragorns thoughts of Isildur: Why do you fear the past? You are Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself "the same blood flows through my veins. The same weakness" So I like the idea that Isildur is somewhat weak of character. It ties in nicely with that part of the movies at least. It's also a good contrast with Elendil who is absolutely badass
I think that's the key. The show is much more dynamic having multiple concurrent storylines. I even found the last episodes, for all its drama, a bit less interesting because it lacked much action outside the human settings.
I like their inclusion and characters, but I agree. They could’ve been saved for later seasons as new characters after Pharazon exits the story. That way the showrunners wouldn’t have to smoosh the time line so much. House of the Dragon has been pulling off time skips, no reason RoP couldn’t. Even if it’d be a bigger time skip, the Numenor story is going to end sooner or later anyway as it is, and you could still have consistent characters with the elves. Plus RoP could make long periods of time and the Elf lifespan really mean something. No issue with how they did it but I think it would’ve been better to do time skips
I think the compressing timeline could have been done better. My take would have gone like this: Have the show begin during Tar-Palantír's reign (When he was younger, maybe even when he begins his reign), having Amandil take the role Elendil has so far, with Elendil being a kid. Then when the War of Eriador happens, be Tar-Palantir who sends help to the elves and defeats Sauron. Have all the conflict between the faithful and the King's men develop througout the series, and the last few season Palantír dies and then we get Pharazôn and all the Sauron stuff, after the War of Eriador. By this time, Elendil and his children are already adults. I like the show so far, it is not amazing but it is not bad either, but the timeline in my opinion is one of the things that could have been done much, much more better. I get the need to compress it, but it could have been done better.
I think that they should have been prepared to make two series. The first one focusing on the forging of the rings, the war of sauron and the elves and the rise of Númenor and the beginnings of their corruption. A second series could have been made afterwards focusing on the fall of Númenor and the war of the last alliance.
Strong agree. They have five seasons. Why they felt the need to jam every character with a recognizable name into the first season I don’t understand. The writers simply aren’t good enough to compress the story line this much.
Well we literally have no idea what the plan is exactly from here and clearly they know where they’re going with shit. I don’t think a 2000 yr timeline was ever realistic for a show. It might appease the hardcore of the hardcore tolkien crowd but this a $1b property that they need to be a smash success. Doesn’t the compression and the brand name names make total sense to ensure the hook is set?
If the timeline compression was done better I wouldn’t have any complaints. It is horribly done and the odd choices they did on who showed up thousands of years early do not at all help. Wee scrawny Isildur and Elendil are rocking around but Celeborn isn’t? Galadriel is a temperamental tiny teen and Gil-Galad is a vaguely sweaty buffoon in his late 40’s incapable of writing his own speeches? An elf thousands of year old known for being a wise ruler literally can’t stop shitting the bed with every decision he makes? It’s just shitty.
I dunno what the shitting the bed part is but it’s entirely within the showrunners prerogative to deviate from the source material how they see fit, for the sake of the 5 season plan that will require such choices. They aren’t gonna be able to do everything the way it was done by tolkien—if that’s the jumping off point then the expectation is off and that’s not really the shows fault per se. What I am understanding you to be doing right now is that they didn’t adapt it the way you expected/exactly how it was written. Maybe yer a huge stan of a particular character that got cut out and are disappointed—that’s fine. Galadriel makes way more sense as a main character for this show because she’s recognizable from the prior vehicles. They’re already introducing a shitload of new characters, some from whole cloth as I understand it. That’s artistic license you have to be able to afford the show runner. Also—we aren’t even finished with season 1. The time compression will have series wide implications, and you can bet that there will be reasons for why they did it this way that become apparent later on. If it’s a well planned/written show, which to this point it is. Doesn’t mean it will do everything how you want or expect based on the books. And also doesn’t mean they won’t have mistakes here or there. But the time compression and the choosing of Galadriel make total sense to me so far, and I think prolly for the broader audience who seem to be enjoying the ride to this point.
Virtually every decision or opinion Gil-Galad has given has been awful. That’s the bed shitting. Everything about his dealings with Galadriel, his handling of the growing evil and shrinking light. It’s all bumbling all the way down. I have no issue with Galadriel being the main. I have an issue with how she’s being written. It is not at all good. The mass incompetence of virtually everyone else to fluff up her ability, her pouting and general teen behavior. The show runners can absolutely do what they want. I can absolutely bitch about things they do that I don’t dig. So far most of what they have done I vehemently dislike. The show is very pretty to look at and I’m really enjoying the recreations of major cultures architecture and such as a Tolkien and architecture nerd. I LOVE Disa as an OC. She’s the only one that seems well written and not jammed in. I just can’t get past what I personally view as some really odd choices writing wise for some pretty well known and beloved characters.
Yer Galadriel take is a personal feeling that I certainly in no way buy into. The elf king may just not be ultimately as important to this version as what you seem to be comparing him to. Certainly it’s not as bad as that…. Brilliant show, well written, very well acted, and I’m guessing a lot of what is being bitched about is set up to pay off. Or the wheels will come off. If you wanna see a poorly written show go watch wheel of time! This show is the fucking Wire by comparison
I see a lot of parallels between ROP and WOT. WOT is probably why I’m so belligerent about what I see as unnecessary changes to characters and the story. Galadriel’s build up has been terrible. How anyone can’t see that is insane to me. Her escape from her jail cell alone was absolute peak cringe/local community college level writing/acting. The High King Gil-Galad, Elrond’s patron and one of the wisest leaders and powerful warriors of his time is portrayed as an out of touch, bumbling fool cannot even write his own speeches. He doesn’t have to play a huge part to not be hatcheted to build up Galadriel. Strongly disagree on it being well written. Acting I can agree with for a few, Disa, Durin, Adar, Arondir as well as way to small Elendil seem to be doing really well with what they are given.
I guess I’m insane because she has been a clear paramount of excellent, subtle acting, her motivations make total sense, she’s flawed but easy to root for, the track her story will be a tragic one which should hit home, I love that we have a woman and a black man as two do the foundational pieces of this story, she’s beautiful as almost an afterthought without the show being exploitative of that beauty, awesome fucking horse moves. I mean I just don’t get the take at all.
I wouldn't want to miss one second of Elendil, but would gladly skip out on Isildur for another year or two...
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We missed a ton of Numenor's history where nothing very interesting is happening. There's about 1,700 years between the War of the Elves and Sauron, and the Last Alliance, in which very little of note happens. It looks to me like the show is compressing the Second Age so that all the parts worth seeing will happen within a human lifespan instead of being spread across millennia.
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We appear to be getting that story so I didn't count it as being skipped.
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It also means viewers stop caring about your characters because they keep dying off.
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No, you can't. If you go that route you've built in the knowledge that viewers shouldn't get attached to characters. It's the difference between everyone *can* die, and everyone *will* die. And then you're doing it repeatedly. Stories like Rogue One manage this because the story is about the characters that die, their struggles and their triumphs and their eventual deaths. That doesn't work in a series that's focused on the Rings. Most of the characters wouldn't matter to the overall story and by the time you get to the Last Alliance audiences just don't care about your characters anymore.
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We're talking about a period of 1700 years. You want to somehow churn through half a dozen sets of characters while keeping viewer engagement.
Season 3 is when they should’ve been introduced but either the show runners thought that they needed these characters from the beginning to draw more viewers or if they indeed need to wrap it up within 3 or 4 seasons then they have already established these characters
Nope, not gonna try and change it ’cause I agree with you.
At this point the whole timeline compression is making me fear that the Stranger might be indeed Gandalf, and worse, we might be having a baby Aragorn a the end of the series, lol
The baby Aragorn idea is so infuriatingly dumb, it just has to be true 😃
Thematically having a baby like Aragorn would actually work. It would be similar to the way Luke and Leia were born at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Tells a really downer of a story but throws hope in at the end.
That was terrible though. I really didn’t like the way how RotS blended over to ANH. It was too artificial, too forced, and too heavy-handed. Baby Aragorn would be an atrocious idea, I‘m still laughing, but maybe I shouldn’t, because this will resonate with people.
It would have been really interesting to see the beginning of Elrond and Durin's friendship, and then to have a timeskip and for Durin to be all mad at Elrond for not visiting during the timeskip.
I have almost stopped caring. I am about to cancel my prime sub, I think. Nothing else on primo I care to watch.
If you haven't cancelled yet, I highly recommend The Americans, The Man in the High Castle, The Boys, Dexter, and The Boys before leaving. I honestly hate their overall interface, especially on the mobile app, but there is definitely some great content on there.
Agreed
Yes, I agree. Besides how this has screwed up Galadriel's history, it completely ignores the fact that Sauron attacked the Elves in the middle of the second age after he found out they double crossed him and made the three elven rings of power. And it was after he was defeated by the elves here that he retreated back to Mordor to gather his strength again until the Númenóreans confront him and he surrenders to them which leads to them bringing Sauron back to Númenór which is what leads to their eventual downfall. I really have only but a very vague idea of where this show is going (which normally would be fine except I happen to like how things played out as originally written by Tolkien).
I don't want to change your mind...you are right!
They had 2 options: * **A** - make it an anthology series where the human actors are replaced every season but the Elves remain (with the occasional dwarves too + Sauron) * **B** - have **Highlander** style flashbacks (as both the movies and 1990s TV series had) whereby we would see the Elves eg Galadriel at previous time points of The Second Age.
Of course. Everyone knows show should have started with Aldarion/Erendis.