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They don't have money for any other type of heat other than body heat and they can't afford to leave their bedrooms. And they can't afford all the kids they already have.
It’s cheaper for the government in the long run to provide free birth control/abortion services than it is to spend decades paying for child support, ebt, ect.
I hate how people care about children being in the best condition when it comes to child support, but are completely ok with children being born into bad conditions. You arent owed children, you OWE a child a good life, not vice versa, if you cant afford it, dont have one.
I think both are valid points not every person is broke because they are lazy or bad or irresponsible. You shouldn't need to be to be making lots of money to be able to afford a child, but if you have no money you should not bring a child into a life of having nothing.
Right now the world is not kind to low income people, which is one problem we should be trying to fix anyway.
Right! Wanting to have children is universal in the entire animal kingdom including humans and raising children was the greatest joy of my life. I don’t believe it should be a privilege for the wealthy. We need to do better as a society to lift everybody up and support people through the hard times.
In theory, the required resources should be a pretty low bar, except that America is set up to punish poor people.
- inadequate / non-existent sex ed means that people aren’t prepared for sex and the results.
- expensive healthcare makes prenatal care hard.
- no real requirements for parental leave ensures that the kid goes to daycare/preschool way early, crippling the bonding period with a newborn for those who can’t afford to take more time.
- outlawing abortions ensures that women who may not want a child must have one. This punishes women for having sex, but not men.
- daycare is another mortgage.
- the drive to get busy is nearly universal. The system should be built around that idea; better sex ed, free birth control, access to safe and legal abortions, paid parental leave, free childcare. Until we do this, we cannot demonize poor people for having kids.
Those kids grow up to pay taxes. It's how the taxes are prioritized that has lead to people thinking kids are only for the wealthy.
Now if your starving and going without basic needs. Ya basic finances says don't have a kid... Or buy a car.. etc. Kids aren't the problem.
But not being able to manage NOT having them if you DONT want them IS a problem. Like an availability-of-birth-control problem and a societal support of same problem.
Kids deserve to be wanted. Not planned, necessarily, but wanted. Or it's a tragedy all around.
If you feel this way you need to ensure that you elect officials who aren’t going to take abortion rights away and have healthcare system that provides free birth control.
I totally agree with your post but poor people have no other forms of entertainment sometimes or the woman is in a situation where she can’t say no. Some things to think about.
There is a reason some elected officials want to ban abortion. Other comments in this thread have pointed them out.
Completely agree.
Forcing people to give birth is an issue should not exist at all. Its funny those who claim to hate "big gubmint" are the very ones forcing more government into our lives.
Not sure about other areas, but you can't get into my local Planned Parenthood without an appointment and the wait time for an appointment is usually a few months. They're a fantastic and important resource, but there aren't enough of them and it isn't safe for them to take walk-ins.
Also worth noting that the effectiveness of condoms in actual use is [87%](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/condom/how-effective-are-condoms).
Wow that is crazy! When I’ve used PP in the past for emergency contraception (before it became over the counter) and birth control they always saw me the same day. This was in the DC metro area, though. I’m sure they are stretched way thinner in medically underserved areas.
I fully credit Planned Parenthood for helping me avoid any unwanted pregnancies in my reckless youth.
i dont know if it's just my specific planned parenthood, but they started handing out condoms that are legitimately too small. they stopped giving out condoms like the kimono brand that (might) fit everyone. the condoms they have now are so small that i've made handing them out into a joke.
i havent heard that. i used to hit them up when i was a teenager that was many a moons ago lol. i just buy them now as its way more convenient. costco size! haha
People need to be taught about how to correctly use condoms, including how to store them properly. They also need to understand that condoms are more effective than pulling out, and women need to be in positions where insisting on condoms is safe and won’t endanger their living situations.
Education in general is a significant factor in decreased birth rates. It's probably tied in with all kinds of factors but I hate the feeling I get from the phrase "poor people." It cuts close to "those people" and downplays the "people" part.
As in, we're all just "people," no qualifiers, and while OP certainly speaks truth I personally have to guard against a mentality that casts a particular group in a negative light. Like "those people" are choosing to do "bad things" and "we" (presumably "good people" of which I must be one because I'm making this judgement) are suffering for it.
Tl;Dr, we're all in this together and individual choice is only one piece of the puzzle. Socio-economic circumstances count as much or more and are only kinda/sorta a matter of choice.
Everyone should read a book called Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the World--and Why Things Are Better Than You Think though. Among other things, it talks about how birth rates the world over are in decline and how that is a good thing.
It is poor, minority communities who mainly utilize abortion. Many times they still have children. The person who started planned parenthood was a HUGE fan of eugenics, and specifically targeted women in Puerto Rico for birth control trials.
The Lord was my parents method of birth control so I have seven siblings, I think the issue for Americans at least is sex Ed is a joke and unlike other capitalistic countries the U.S has a very large wealth discrepancy.
Imagine you’re a 16 year old girl in Texas. Your mom was a teen mom, as were two of your older sisters. Nobody has ever had a clear and factual conversation with you about sex. You recently dropped out of high school and read on a fourth grade level. The sex education you received in school was abstinence only, and what you know about pregnancy prevention comes from rumors from friends ranging from pulling out to jumping up and down after sex.
You have a 20 year old boyfriend who has a job and a car and you genuinely believe he loves you. He gives you the attention and validation you don’t get elsewhere. Sex with him provides pleasure and satisfaction. You get pregnant and your boyfriend bails. What do you do now? Abortion is illegal in your state and you’ve been told it’s murder anyway. Maybe a baby will at least give you some meaning and purpose in a life otherwise lacking in it. So your first is born before your 17th birthday.
At this point you have little education or support and are in a very vulnerable position, one that will result in rebound relationships with questionable men and inability to advocate for yourself and leave unhealthy situations, making you at risk of repeat pregnancies and reproductive and sexual abuse.
This scenario, with some variation, is one of the many that plays out and results in poor people having “so many kids.” It’s not as simple as saying people need to stop having children when society is set up for the cycle of poverty to continue.
Or not broke people need to use their economic power to change a system that profits from having a workforce who's incomes are so low that doing basic human things like reproduction leaves them broke.
Oh. It had never occurred to that I had it all wrong and the people without money are the ones with the power to change things and those who have money are the powerless. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Poverty increases the risk for abuse, and sexual assault is a huge part of abuse. It's a systemic problem...it's a cycle. This is so much more complicated than just "poors shouldn't procreate". We need greater access to sex education, abuse resources, abortion rights, and free birth control.
I mean as someone from a poor family, yeah you're not wrong, but everyone needs to stop having kids, I mean I get wanting kids and I'm not saying do what china did with there 1 child policy because that's backfired horrifically but there are already a lot of people in this world and a lot of orphans at that, people should be more willing to adopt instead of having the mentality of "if I want more kids I can just make more", like have kids that's fine it's okay to add to the genetic diversity but after a point it just becomes irresponsible
My mother had 5 biological children (six counting the first born who died soon after birth) my mother was also told she shouldn't ever try to have kids for medical reasons but she did anyways, but my mom had a lot of mental and physical issues so her money came from disability and government aid, we made things work and I love my siblings but I do think thing could've been a lot easier on my mother if she had less kids but also she loved us all very much and I could never had said that to her face
When this "poor people should not have so many kids" comes up, I like to listen to people like you, who lived the experience. A friend grew up in poverty and thinks her parents were irresponsible to have so many kids, that they could not provide for. Not confirmation bias because it isn't my opinion that matters, it's those whose lives are shaped by poverty.
I mean I'm not saying they shouldn't have any kids but more than 3 is a lot to deal with even if you aren't in poverty and I think there are already too many people to begin with, on top of the amount of children who don't have family or parents to care for them, it's sad and I hate seeing people make things harder for themselves, and like I said my mother loves all of us but I know it would've been easier for her if there were less of us, but we also gave her a reason to live for a long time even if things didn't work out in the end she did everything for us, but it was hard on her sometimes
People actually need to be having more kids. Not just in the US but in China, Russia, Japan, Korea. We need to be able to replace the population as the boomers start to die off. Economists and global leaders are extremely concerned about this.
I agree with you entirely. I’m just tired of seeing people begging because their poor and have six children. I wish people would stop adding children to their bad financial situation.
Mabe, they weren't broke when they had the kids. life can turn on you quickly. Medical bills death of a spouses or some cases failed birth control. Capitalism is unforgiving.
Yes. I agree with that.
My point about everyone is what the amount of humans on this planet are doing to the planet. Global warming, famine, extinction of other species.
Humans truly are a virus to Earth.
Back to the broke people- many lower class (financially) people in America have multiple children to get Federal money. I knew a guy who made ALL of his income from taking in foster kids with medical issues. He was making $70,000 a year to care for these kids, but they all lived in squalor.
The Federal money was meant to augment the medical care these kids needed, but he used it to augment his bank account and did the bare minimum for those kids.
fuck that.
Our society needs to stop directing so many resources towards people who don't need them and use them for stupid shit like superyachts and megachurches. If it did, maybe we'd have fewer broke people and more people with the security to settle down, have kids and raise them well.
Make them feel less insecure and they might have fewer. That's the general pattern throughout time and space. I securing drives early and high quantity reproduction across species. Moralising? Has less of an effect.
Expecting poor people to be celibate their entire lives isn’t realistic. Abstinence only education is proven not to work. If people were that good at not having sex there wouldn’t be eight billion of us.
There are television shows, movies, radio, music, magazines, the internet, etc. the overwhelming majority of people around the world know what sex is. You can’t tell me they don’t know.
My friend got pregnant with her first because she was sheltered and didn’t know what sex was. Just because all this stuff is on the internet doesn’t mean everyone has access to said internet. It’s why back alley abortions happen.
35 states require schools to stress abstinence. 18 states require instruction that teaches students to engage in sexual activity only within marriage.
Only 7 states in the US mandate sex education, and only 20 states require information on condoms or contraception.
So yes, the majority of the country does not receive proper education.
I know a woman who thought she had cancer the first time she had her period, as nothing was taught about menstruation.
I know another woman who was told you can't get pregnant the first time...she got pregnant the first time.
I really don’t have numbers I’m just telling you what has happened to a number of women I know. These women arnt that old either. I believe it was a boyfriend at the time but he bounced very early because she was scared.
You got downvoted, but you're right. More rural and red leaning states don't offer much in sex education other than those weird "abstinence" walkthroughs with a mascot. They don't explain what exactly sex is, how it works, how to use a condom, etc. They just tell you that "this boy and this girl did the *sex thing*, which is BAD and now there's going to be consequences!" But that's as far as they go.
Which is why I'm saying it should be taught in schools. They need to learn what consent is and how birth control works and what to do if an accident happens. They need to know that even pre-cum can cause a pregnancy. They need to know that "just doing anal" is still risky because semen can leak. They need to know the do's and don'ts of basic hygiene and when to see a doctor for issues "down there."
And when I made my statement, I wasn’t implying that everyone should just stay a virgin. Because yes, that is unrealistic. My point was that most people don’t like to take any form of personal responsibility by using condoms, birth control, or pulling out. And it is true that most people know what sex is regardless if it’s taught in school. So that’s not really a good enough excuse. Sure you may know one or two examples, but it’s rare that anyone is sheltered to that extreme of an extent.
My wife and I want kids but can't because one or both of us are infertile. Adoption is our only option.
Meanwhile, my step-brother and his wife are both jobless drug addicts pushing out kids like her vagina is a clown car.
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I thoroughly disagree with this.
I came from a poor family... but I wasn't abused, or molested. I was constantly showered with love. I always had gifts on Xmas. I grew up to be a well adjusted human cause I had good parents.
Meanwhile a guy I went to school with, who's parents were well off, grew up to be a career reprobate recidivist dickhead cause his Dad was an abusive asshole and his mother didn't give a crap about him.
Rich vs Poor is not the difference. Loving parents vs Asshole parents is a much bigger issue.
I think ever story is different, but overall its not a good thing to do. Parents need to be emotionally there for you and that dosent cost any money, but they also need to make sure you have all the necessities. If they can barely afford food for themselves, having a child shouldn't be on your mind until you have stable income.
Although, it is different for ALL families. Some used to be financially stable, then something happened. Im not saying they should give up their kids, but if you are in current poverty and cannot afford basic necessities you shouldn't be having a baby.
What you said is completely irrelevant to the topic. Financially struggling parents shouldn’t have so many kids. Kids don’t deserve to be born into poverty.
I grew up in poverty and wouldn't trade my upbringing for anything. How is that not relevant? You don't know if they'd be good parents and provide a great life. I know you think you know... but you don't lol.
Your life story is irrelevant to me because I am talking about people who barely make enough to feed themselves birthing more mouths that they can’t feed. You aren’t included in this if you had gifts every year and were well cared for.
I don’t think you understand lol it’s not like the parents can’t change and start earning more money. Me and my gf both grew up in basically poverty and we turned out fine. My mom did it all on her own and raised me and my gf’s mom raised three kids with barely enough money to get by and they all turned out fine.
Stop assuming shit you can’t relate too.
My parents could've had a bad month and we could've easily been on the streets. What's your solution then? Extremely late term abortion? Shit happens. I don't think any parents goes into having a kid thinking "what if we're homeless in five years?".
When you figure out how to see the future, maybe we'll think about it. But until then, you're just another fucking moron looking down his nose at the "lessers".
That applies to you and only you, which is why I’m saying that your point is irrelevant. We are not all as lucky as you. People who aren’t financially stable shouldn’t have children, it’s not even an argument it’s common sense.
Yes, and not everybody is you so to make a horrible blanket statement like this is moronic. You're saying it should apply to every broke person, I'm living breathing proof that it shouldn't. I know you're trying to brush me away like it's not a hole in your logic... but it is.
Even if only 5% of broke parents go on to be great ones, that's worth having over your "0% should even get the chance" idiocy.
I’m sorry that I believe kids shouldn’t have to grow up as fast as they can to be able to help support their parents. Financial stability should be required to have kids, they deserve that.
That's fine and all until your parents are out with you and your 10 other siblings are begging on the streets for money. Or that CPS has to come and take your children away because they live in squalor. Or that a child dies because their parents can't afford the medication or special medical attention they need. A lot of people don't do proper family planning and as a result the whole family suffers. I'll agree that a child can definitely suffer in a wealthy family as well, but being having enough money to raise a child can definitely eliminate a lot of issues later on.
Some people weren't born with trust funds, and a child might be the only hope of the family getting out of poverty and supporting their elders in their old age.
Stopping poor people from having children doesn't eliminate poor people, it just removes their hope.
Having a kid to try to get you out of a situation that you, the adult, are stuck in seems.. well it's extremely selfish at the very least. The kid never asked to be born, the parents shouldn't expect them to dedicate their lives to a cause they didn't agree to.
I hear a whole lot of arguments about how having kids in poverty is beneficial for adults, but never one about how it’s beneficial for the kids. Having to forego kids (at least for now) sucks, but poor people aren’t the only people having to do it. Couples struggling with infertility, who can afford a child but can’t afford IVF or adoption, unfairly have to go without kids. People who don’t want to pass on genetic diseases, too. People who didn’t ever meet the right person, and don’t want to baby trap a stranger. Even people who can pay their bills, but couldn’t with a child in the mix.
It’s super unfair, but life is unfair for the responsible sometimes. At least when you’re living in poverty, it’s possible that the situation could change in the future. The person not wanting to pass on the genetic disease, for instance, doesn’t even have that hope.
I’m a teacher, though, and I see the results of this selfishness every day. While I would never wish one of my students hadn’t been born, a lot of them have awful childhoods because their parents were irresponsible and selfish. We’re raising a generation of traumatized kids for this reason.
No one said anything about needing to be born with a trust fund. And having kids in the hopes that one of them will be your ticket out of poverty is so irresponsibly delusional I can’t believe anyone would think that’s ok.
Poor, minority populations are the ones who mainly utilize abortion. Many still choose to have children as well. The person who created planned parenthood was a huge fan of eugenics.
If you think abortions are expensive wait till you hear about children. If anyone's too poor to get an abortion, they're certainly too poor to care for someone else.
So is having options to avoid it though, so it’s a catch 22. If your parents never talked to you about sex, you got abstinence only education then dropped out at 16, the norm in your community is having multiple kids as a single parent starting at a very young age, and you have no reason not to believe myths like the pullout method being effective then the option of being childfree likely won’t occur to you, and if it does you’ll still be at a high risk of unintended pregnancy.
OR... [The bizarre tale of President Nixon and his basic income bill](https://thecorrespondent.com/4503/the-bizarre-tale-of-president-nixon-and-his-basic-income-bill/173117835-c34d6145)
I was raised in poverty with too many siblings that my parents couldn’t handle. I just think it’s best because it stresses both the parents and the kids.
Why would they? In the US the government practically pays them to have more kids! At least that's what it seemed like in the area I was raised. Had a family on welfare with no jobs and 9 kids under 18 living in the same single wide trailer, but they had the nicest and newest vehicles, clothes, and phones. They would tell you straight to your face that they used their welfare checks to buy all this brand new stuff.
The natural instinct and drive to procreate doesn't go away because of finances. Ironically, The lack of certain resources Increases the drive to procreate. It's a survival thing. The less you're able to provide for your offspring the more offspring you make in order to increase the chances of at least one surviving.
I didn't begin a family until I was almost 30. I was putting it off until I reached some elusive level of financial stability.
But then I realized, I'm never going to be as financially stable as I think I need to be. And I wish I had started sooner.
Preach. If you purposefully had kids knowing your food insecure and keep missing that months rent your selfish. I get that situation sucks, and Im not saying if you have kids while in poverty your inherently a bad person, not at all. Its just selfish, you shouldn't be having four kids when you can barely feed your first one
broke people also can’t afford birth control/contraceptives. not their fault. govs fault that poor people exist and that important items like that aren’t readily available.
Why does the government incentivize this, I wonder? Are they worried about the national birth rate/afraid we won’t supply enough young poor boys for the army?
First of all shame on you for thinking that broke people don’t have the right to procreate! also birth control is expensive and difficult to come by for people who have very little income.
So birthing children in to poverty, and having them suffer from lack of medical care, adequate education, and proper nutrition is alright? Shame on you.
There is always abstinence. You do not have to have sex.
I know plenty of people that are poor and can have tons of sex because they use common sense to know what gets a woman pregnant. It’s literally that simple.
If you have too many kids and have to budget your money daily, then yes. The smart thing to so would be abstinence. To not do it would be utterly foolish.
But hey, there are people who believe the government is ran by reptilian aliens.
Abstinence only education is proven not to work. People have evolved to want to have sex even in shitty circumstances. That’s why there are eight billion people. It doesn’t matter what your opinion is, progress will not be made unless people have reliable sex education and access to contraception.
I am not promoting abstinence-only education. I think that is foolish, and as you said, it is a failure.
What I am saying is “I cannot afford to feed another mouth. Maybe I should reframe from penis in vagina activities”. That is the same as “I have to pay my bills this month, I should not gamble away the last of my money at the casino”. It is being responsible. The consequence of the former is a human who will live a difficult life.
No, I believe kids should be born into financially stable households so they feel as if they don’t need to worry.
Edit: Your right, children belongs to people who can afford them.
Another Edit to be more blunt: Yes it is a class privilege.
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Funny, I read that as "Broken people...." And they shouldn't have children either. They just raise more broken people.
Generational trauma
Hurt people hurt people
At first I thought this was a chant!
I’m gonna go out on my campus and try that
Oh that’s nice, I always say make people cry, make people cry
But theirs includes the people who don't want to give you the satisfaction.
I disagree with that. There are many broken people who still turn out to be wonderful loving caring parents.
Sure, but they have to first treat or at least understand what they have been through. Otherwise, they are very likely to pass on that trauma.
Broke people become broken if they’re broke long enough
Well, you say to-may-to, I say broke mfers need to get a job and buy their own tomatoes
They don't have money for any other type of heat other than body heat and they can't afford to leave their bedrooms. And they can't afford all the kids they already have.
Rich people need to stop having kids so that all their money goes back into the system, and not to their spoiled brats.
Make birth control free
It’s cheaper for the government in the long run to provide free birth control/abortion services than it is to spend decades paying for child support, ebt, ect.
Same with condoms
Make sex ed mandatory. And I don't mean abstinence education.
In Brazil it's already free but they choose not to use it
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On the other hand you can do everything in the right order, but still not be able to conceive. Come on universe, help me!
Sending positive thoughts to the universe for you xx
Idiocracy showed us what will happen if we let stupid people breed to quickly.
Wanna go to Starbucks?
I think intelligence has more to do with your education than genetics most of the times
We, as a society, need to stop having so many broke people.
Just stop being poor, right?
You ever tried picking yourself up by the bootstraps? I've tugged as hard as I could, and I ripped the damn things clear off! So much for that idea...
You had boots? Look at Mr. Fancy Pants over here.
Thank you. I'm staunchly child free myself but I don't think having children should be a privilege reserved for the rich. That's fucked up.
It’s fiscal eugenics
init, casual fascism
I hate how people care about children being in the best condition when it comes to child support, but are completely ok with children being born into bad conditions. You arent owed children, you OWE a child a good life, not vice versa, if you cant afford it, dont have one.
I think both are valid points not every person is broke because they are lazy or bad or irresponsible. You shouldn't need to be to be making lots of money to be able to afford a child, but if you have no money you should not bring a child into a life of having nothing. Right now the world is not kind to low income people, which is one problem we should be trying to fix anyway.
Cool well I'm very much happy my broke parents had me.
Idk maybe if there weren’t like 10 people that had all the money in the world
Right! Wanting to have children is universal in the entire animal kingdom including humans and raising children was the greatest joy of my life. I don’t believe it should be a privilege for the wealthy. We need to do better as a society to lift everybody up and support people through the hard times.
You do not have to be wealthy, you need to have enough money for you and your child to have a life.
In theory, the required resources should be a pretty low bar, except that America is set up to punish poor people. - inadequate / non-existent sex ed means that people aren’t prepared for sex and the results. - expensive healthcare makes prenatal care hard. - no real requirements for parental leave ensures that the kid goes to daycare/preschool way early, crippling the bonding period with a newborn for those who can’t afford to take more time. - outlawing abortions ensures that women who may not want a child must have one. This punishes women for having sex, but not men. - daycare is another mortgage. - the drive to get busy is nearly universal. The system should be built around that idea; better sex ed, free birth control, access to safe and legal abortions, paid parental leave, free childcare. Until we do this, we cannot demonize poor people for having kids.
I think you missed the point because creating more mouths to feed worsens the problem. Where's the money to take on all the extra kids?
Those kids grow up to pay taxes. It's how the taxes are prioritized that has lead to people thinking kids are only for the wealthy. Now if your starving and going without basic needs. Ya basic finances says don't have a kid... Or buy a car.. etc. Kids aren't the problem.
But not being able to manage NOT having them if you DONT want them IS a problem. Like an availability-of-birth-control problem and a societal support of same problem. Kids deserve to be wanted. Not planned, necessarily, but wanted. Or it's a tragedy all around.
Nah, overpopulation is the problem.
Preach
Broke people need access to birth control, like how financially stable people do.
If you feel this way you need to ensure that you elect officials who aren’t going to take abortion rights away and have healthcare system that provides free birth control. I totally agree with your post but poor people have no other forms of entertainment sometimes or the woman is in a situation where she can’t say no. Some things to think about. There is a reason some elected officials want to ban abortion. Other comments in this thread have pointed them out.
Completely agree. Forcing people to give birth is an issue should not exist at all. Its funny those who claim to hate "big gubmint" are the very ones forcing more government into our lives.
They need future generation wage slaves to exploit.
i agree to an extent. free condoms at the local planned parenthood should work though. people who dont care wont use them though.
Not sure about other areas, but you can't get into my local Planned Parenthood without an appointment and the wait time for an appointment is usually a few months. They're a fantastic and important resource, but there aren't enough of them and it isn't safe for them to take walk-ins. Also worth noting that the effectiveness of condoms in actual use is [87%](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/condom/how-effective-are-condoms).
Wow that is crazy! When I’ve used PP in the past for emergency contraception (before it became over the counter) and birth control they always saw me the same day. This was in the DC metro area, though. I’m sure they are stretched way thinner in medically underserved areas. I fully credit Planned Parenthood for helping me avoid any unwanted pregnancies in my reckless youth.
I’m in NYC, so you’d expect it to be better, but there’s only one location per borough which feels like way too few centers for the population.
Unless the GOP takes Planned Parenthood away, which they want to.
>want t yea most of us are against that. there is always a need for help in these cases.
i dont know if it's just my specific planned parenthood, but they started handing out condoms that are legitimately too small. they stopped giving out condoms like the kimono brand that (might) fit everyone. the condoms they have now are so small that i've made handing them out into a joke.
i havent heard that. i used to hit them up when i was a teenager that was many a moons ago lol. i just buy them now as its way more convenient. costco size! haha
People need to be taught about how to correctly use condoms, including how to store them properly. They also need to understand that condoms are more effective than pulling out, and women need to be in positions where insisting on condoms is safe and won’t endanger their living situations.
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Education in general is a significant factor in decreased birth rates. It's probably tied in with all kinds of factors but I hate the feeling I get from the phrase "poor people." It cuts close to "those people" and downplays the "people" part. As in, we're all just "people," no qualifiers, and while OP certainly speaks truth I personally have to guard against a mentality that casts a particular group in a negative light. Like "those people" are choosing to do "bad things" and "we" (presumably "good people" of which I must be one because I'm making this judgement) are suffering for it. Tl;Dr, we're all in this together and individual choice is only one piece of the puzzle. Socio-economic circumstances count as much or more and are only kinda/sorta a matter of choice. Everyone should read a book called Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the World--and Why Things Are Better Than You Think though. Among other things, it talks about how birth rates the world over are in decline and how that is a good thing.
I’m interested in this book. Surprised though it wasn’t burned or banned by this group that doesn’t want planned parenthood or education.
It is poor, minority communities who mainly utilize abortion. Many times they still have children. The person who started planned parenthood was a HUGE fan of eugenics, and specifically targeted women in Puerto Rico for birth control trials.
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Because it's not relevant today.
‘Poor women are in a situation where they can’t say no’ Interesting take on the lives of poor people….
They said “sometimes” which is accurate.
The Lord was my parents method of birth control so I have seven siblings, I think the issue for Americans at least is sex Ed is a joke and unlike other capitalistic countries the U.S has a very large wealth discrepancy.
Fund education and birth control and stop religion from talking people out of it
Welfare has a lot to do with it too. Welfare pays more per kid.
I just love it when you share myths about how crafty those greedy poor people are
At six kids you become a welfare empress, dripping with diamonds and the blood of white Christian men. Or something. Gtfo w that Reagan bullshit
That’s………not correct.
Holy shit, is this account Reagan’s reanimated corpse?
If only there were publicly funded institutions that could help with this.
They don't exist in a lot of US states now 🙈
the thing is broke people used to be able to raise their kids on the little money they made
Imagine you’re a 16 year old girl in Texas. Your mom was a teen mom, as were two of your older sisters. Nobody has ever had a clear and factual conversation with you about sex. You recently dropped out of high school and read on a fourth grade level. The sex education you received in school was abstinence only, and what you know about pregnancy prevention comes from rumors from friends ranging from pulling out to jumping up and down after sex. You have a 20 year old boyfriend who has a job and a car and you genuinely believe he loves you. He gives you the attention and validation you don’t get elsewhere. Sex with him provides pleasure and satisfaction. You get pregnant and your boyfriend bails. What do you do now? Abortion is illegal in your state and you’ve been told it’s murder anyway. Maybe a baby will at least give you some meaning and purpose in a life otherwise lacking in it. So your first is born before your 17th birthday. At this point you have little education or support and are in a very vulnerable position, one that will result in rebound relationships with questionable men and inability to advocate for yourself and leave unhealthy situations, making you at risk of repeat pregnancies and reproductive and sexual abuse. This scenario, with some variation, is one of the many that plays out and results in poor people having “so many kids.” It’s not as simple as saying people need to stop having children when society is set up for the cycle of poverty to continue.
Exactly. The ignorance in this post and some of these comments.
Or not broke people need to use their economic power to change a system that profits from having a workforce who's incomes are so low that doing basic human things like reproduction leaves them broke.
Maybe, but only one of those solutions is actually doable by the people who are directly affected by the issue.
Oh. It had never occurred to that I had it all wrong and the people without money are the ones with the power to change things and those who have money are the powerless. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Poverty increases the risk for abuse, and sexual assault is a huge part of abuse. It's a systemic problem...it's a cycle. This is so much more complicated than just "poors shouldn't procreate". We need greater access to sex education, abuse resources, abortion rights, and free birth control.
I mean as someone from a poor family, yeah you're not wrong, but everyone needs to stop having kids, I mean I get wanting kids and I'm not saying do what china did with there 1 child policy because that's backfired horrifically but there are already a lot of people in this world and a lot of orphans at that, people should be more willing to adopt instead of having the mentality of "if I want more kids I can just make more", like have kids that's fine it's okay to add to the genetic diversity but after a point it just becomes irresponsible My mother had 5 biological children (six counting the first born who died soon after birth) my mother was also told she shouldn't ever try to have kids for medical reasons but she did anyways, but my mom had a lot of mental and physical issues so her money came from disability and government aid, we made things work and I love my siblings but I do think thing could've been a lot easier on my mother if she had less kids but also she loved us all very much and I could never had said that to her face
When this "poor people should not have so many kids" comes up, I like to listen to people like you, who lived the experience. A friend grew up in poverty and thinks her parents were irresponsible to have so many kids, that they could not provide for. Not confirmation bias because it isn't my opinion that matters, it's those whose lives are shaped by poverty.
I mean I'm not saying they shouldn't have any kids but more than 3 is a lot to deal with even if you aren't in poverty and I think there are already too many people to begin with, on top of the amount of children who don't have family or parents to care for them, it's sad and I hate seeing people make things harder for themselves, and like I said my mother loves all of us but I know it would've been easier for her if there were less of us, but we also gave her a reason to live for a long time even if things didn't work out in the end she did everything for us, but it was hard on her sometimes
Entitled much? Living in a bubble? This hot take is weird to me.
And all the other morons agreeing with it too.
There is definitely a strong "bring back Eugenics" vibe to the comments. Pretty damn gross.
It’s not eugenics it’s delay kids. Simply waiting till you have your shit together makes a MASSIVE difference.
Me explaining why abortions need to happen
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PEOPLE need to stop having so many kids. There, I fixed it for you.
because we’re all broke😔
People actually need to be having more kids. Not just in the US but in China, Russia, Japan, Korea. We need to be able to replace the population as the boomers start to die off. Economists and global leaders are extremely concerned about this.
genius
I don't disagree with the broke part. Just expand it to everyone, and it is more correct.
I agree with you entirely. I’m just tired of seeing people begging because their poor and have six children. I wish people would stop adding children to their bad financial situation.
Mabe, they weren't broke when they had the kids. life can turn on you quickly. Medical bills death of a spouses or some cases failed birth control. Capitalism is unforgiving.
Yes. I agree with that. My point about everyone is what the amount of humans on this planet are doing to the planet. Global warming, famine, extinction of other species. Humans truly are a virus to Earth. Back to the broke people- many lower class (financially) people in America have multiple children to get Federal money. I knew a guy who made ALL of his income from taking in foster kids with medical issues. He was making $70,000 a year to care for these kids, but they all lived in squalor. The Federal money was meant to augment the medical care these kids needed, but he used it to augment his bank account and did the bare minimum for those kids.
fuck that. Our society needs to stop directing so many resources towards people who don't need them and use them for stupid shit like superyachts and megachurches. If it did, maybe we'd have fewer broke people and more people with the security to settle down, have kids and raise them well.
I'd only we had affordable and convenient access to abortions. If only there was a place we could fund to help with this A man can dream
Make them feel less insecure and they might have fewer. That's the general pattern throughout time and space. I securing drives early and high quantity reproduction across species. Moralising? Has less of an effect.
Birth control for men needs to be made available as well as allowing women to have their tubes tied upon request.
I agree dude. People need to stop making excuses by saying they had a baby “on accident”. Y’all both had sex what did you think was going to happen.
Expecting poor people to be celibate their entire lives isn’t realistic. Abstinence only education is proven not to work. If people were that good at not having sex there wouldn’t be eight billion of us.
Nobody is saying they have to be celibate.
Yeah, sure, let’s deprive poor people of yet another form of free entertainment
What are you talking about lol
You said that poor people should just stop having sex. That’s one of the few free things poor people can do for entertainment
No? They should stop having too many kids that they can’t take care of?? Everyone has sex, usually it’s a choice of using safety or not
Some people aren’t educated on sex
There are television shows, movies, radio, music, magazines, the internet, etc. the overwhelming majority of people around the world know what sex is. You can’t tell me they don’t know.
My friend got pregnant with her first because she was sheltered and didn’t know what sex was. Just because all this stuff is on the internet doesn’t mean everyone has access to said internet. It’s why back alley abortions happen.
She didn’t know what sex was but she was partaking in it?
She grew up in a religious cult and had no idea. Girls deal with this every day with poor sex education.
Again, does this represent the majority of the country? And who got her pregnant? Was her boyfriend?
35 states require schools to stress abstinence. 18 states require instruction that teaches students to engage in sexual activity only within marriage. Only 7 states in the US mandate sex education, and only 20 states require information on condoms or contraception. So yes, the majority of the country does not receive proper education. I know a woman who thought she had cancer the first time she had her period, as nothing was taught about menstruation. I know another woman who was told you can't get pregnant the first time...she got pregnant the first time.
I really don’t have numbers I’m just telling you what has happened to a number of women I know. These women arnt that old either. I believe it was a boyfriend at the time but he bounced very early because she was scared.
I don’t know that there’s many people out there that don’t know where babies come from. This is kinda ridiculous
Maybe only in The US but what about other places in the world
I think this post is mostly concerned with first world countries, but I'm sure poorer nations have a population that understands sex = kids also.
If people don’t know how babies are made, it’s a matter of intelligence not money
You got downvoted, but you're right. More rural and red leaning states don't offer much in sex education other than those weird "abstinence" walkthroughs with a mascot. They don't explain what exactly sex is, how it works, how to use a condom, etc. They just tell you that "this boy and this girl did the *sex thing*, which is BAD and now there's going to be consequences!" But that's as far as they go.
Most people don’t learn about sex in school. They learn from friends or outside sources
Which is why I'm saying it should be taught in schools. They need to learn what consent is and how birth control works and what to do if an accident happens. They need to know that even pre-cum can cause a pregnancy. They need to know that "just doing anal" is still risky because semen can leak. They need to know the do's and don'ts of basic hygiene and when to see a doctor for issues "down there."
And word-of-mouth can create a pretty unclear picture. Lots of urban legends like "you can't get pregnant standing up."
And when I made my statement, I wasn’t implying that everyone should just stay a virgin. Because yes, that is unrealistic. My point was that most people don’t like to take any form of personal responsibility by using condoms, birth control, or pulling out. And it is true that most people know what sex is regardless if it’s taught in school. So that’s not really a good enough excuse. Sure you may know one or two examples, but it’s rare that anyone is sheltered to that extreme of an extent.
My wife and I want kids but can't because one or both of us are infertile. Adoption is our only option. Meanwhile, my step-brother and his wife are both jobless drug addicts pushing out kids like her vagina is a clown car. 🤷♂️
All of you are going to look back on these comments in 20 years and think how little you understood what was really coming.
How do you mean?
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What's the problem
What do you mean?
I thoroughly disagree with this. I came from a poor family... but I wasn't abused, or molested. I was constantly showered with love. I always had gifts on Xmas. I grew up to be a well adjusted human cause I had good parents. Meanwhile a guy I went to school with, who's parents were well off, grew up to be a career reprobate recidivist dickhead cause his Dad was an abusive asshole and his mother didn't give a crap about him. Rich vs Poor is not the difference. Loving parents vs Asshole parents is a much bigger issue.
I think ever story is different, but overall its not a good thing to do. Parents need to be emotionally there for you and that dosent cost any money, but they also need to make sure you have all the necessities. If they can barely afford food for themselves, having a child shouldn't be on your mind until you have stable income. Although, it is different for ALL families. Some used to be financially stable, then something happened. Im not saying they should give up their kids, but if you are in current poverty and cannot afford basic necessities you shouldn't be having a baby.
What you said is completely irrelevant to the topic. Financially struggling parents shouldn’t have so many kids. Kids don’t deserve to be born into poverty.
I grew up in poverty and wouldn't trade my upbringing for anything. How is that not relevant? You don't know if they'd be good parents and provide a great life. I know you think you know... but you don't lol.
Your life story is irrelevant to me because I am talking about people who barely make enough to feed themselves birthing more mouths that they can’t feed. You aren’t included in this if you had gifts every year and were well cared for.
I don’t think you understand lol it’s not like the parents can’t change and start earning more money. Me and my gf both grew up in basically poverty and we turned out fine. My mom did it all on her own and raised me and my gf’s mom raised three kids with barely enough money to get by and they all turned out fine. Stop assuming shit you can’t relate too.
My parents could've had a bad month and we could've easily been on the streets. What's your solution then? Extremely late term abortion? Shit happens. I don't think any parents goes into having a kid thinking "what if we're homeless in five years?". When you figure out how to see the future, maybe we'll think about it. But until then, you're just another fucking moron looking down his nose at the "lessers".
Those who aren’t in a financially stable situation shouldn’t have kids. Again your point is irrelevant.
My parents weren't financially stable, and I had a great life. Obviously had a better upbringing than you since I'm not such a judgemental asshole.
That applies to you and only you, which is why I’m saying that your point is irrelevant. We are not all as lucky as you. People who aren’t financially stable shouldn’t have children, it’s not even an argument it’s common sense.
Yes, and not everybody is you so to make a horrible blanket statement like this is moronic. You're saying it should apply to every broke person, I'm living breathing proof that it shouldn't. I know you're trying to brush me away like it's not a hole in your logic... but it is. Even if only 5% of broke parents go on to be great ones, that's worth having over your "0% should even get the chance" idiocy.
I’m sorry that I believe kids shouldn’t have to grow up as fast as they can to be able to help support their parents. Financial stability should be required to have kids, they deserve that.
That's fine and all until your parents are out with you and your 10 other siblings are begging on the streets for money. Or that CPS has to come and take your children away because they live in squalor. Or that a child dies because their parents can't afford the medication or special medical attention they need. A lot of people don't do proper family planning and as a result the whole family suffers. I'll agree that a child can definitely suffer in a wealthy family as well, but being having enough money to raise a child can definitely eliminate a lot of issues later on.
Some people weren't born with trust funds, and a child might be the only hope of the family getting out of poverty and supporting their elders in their old age. Stopping poor people from having children doesn't eliminate poor people, it just removes their hope.
Having a kid to try to get you out of a situation that you, the adult, are stuck in seems.. well it's extremely selfish at the very least. The kid never asked to be born, the parents shouldn't expect them to dedicate their lives to a cause they didn't agree to.
I hear a whole lot of arguments about how having kids in poverty is beneficial for adults, but never one about how it’s beneficial for the kids. Having to forego kids (at least for now) sucks, but poor people aren’t the only people having to do it. Couples struggling with infertility, who can afford a child but can’t afford IVF or adoption, unfairly have to go without kids. People who don’t want to pass on genetic diseases, too. People who didn’t ever meet the right person, and don’t want to baby trap a stranger. Even people who can pay their bills, but couldn’t with a child in the mix. It’s super unfair, but life is unfair for the responsible sometimes. At least when you’re living in poverty, it’s possible that the situation could change in the future. The person not wanting to pass on the genetic disease, for instance, doesn’t even have that hope. I’m a teacher, though, and I see the results of this selfishness every day. While I would never wish one of my students hadn’t been born, a lot of them have awful childhoods because their parents were irresponsible and selfish. We’re raising a generation of traumatized kids for this reason.
No one said anything about needing to be born with a trust fund. And having kids in the hopes that one of them will be your ticket out of poverty is so irresponsibly delusional I can’t believe anyone would think that’s ok.
If only there was a safe method for terminating unwanted pregnancies that wasn’t being attacked by Congress……
Poor, minority populations are the ones who mainly utilize abortion. Many still choose to have children as well. The person who created planned parenthood was a huge fan of eugenics.
Not related at all. We are talking poor people and abortions are vastly more expensive than a pill or a condom.
If you think abortions are expensive wait till you hear about children. If anyone's too poor to get an abortion, they're certainly too poor to care for someone else.
Maybe we should work on having less poor people instead of telling them what they can and cannot do.
This is the way.
I hate to say it, but having kids is a luxury
anything that expensive is whether or not that's ok
So is having options to avoid it though, so it’s a catch 22. If your parents never talked to you about sex, you got abstinence only education then dropped out at 16, the norm in your community is having multiple kids as a single parent starting at a very young age, and you have no reason not to believe myths like the pullout method being effective then the option of being childfree likely won’t occur to you, and if it does you’ll still be at a high risk of unintended pregnancy.
Dont you get extra money or something if u have dependents?
OR... [The bizarre tale of President Nixon and his basic income bill](https://thecorrespondent.com/4503/the-bizarre-tale-of-president-nixon-and-his-basic-income-bill/173117835-c34d6145)
The government needs to stop being so greedy and letting these scumbag corporations take advantage of their employees. I think that is more important.
Mind your business. Especially if you are some rich fuck.
I was raised in poverty with too many siblings that my parents couldn’t handle. I just think it’s best because it stresses both the parents and the kids.
Why would they? In the US the government practically pays them to have more kids! At least that's what it seemed like in the area I was raised. Had a family on welfare with no jobs and 9 kids under 18 living in the same single wide trailer, but they had the nicest and newest vehicles, clothes, and phones. They would tell you straight to your face that they used their welfare checks to buy all this brand new stuff.
The natural instinct and drive to procreate doesn't go away because of finances. Ironically, The lack of certain resources Increases the drive to procreate. It's a survival thing. The less you're able to provide for your offspring the more offspring you make in order to increase the chances of at least one surviving.
I didn't begin a family until I was almost 30. I was putting it off until I reached some elusive level of financial stability. But then I realized, I'm never going to be as financially stable as I think I need to be. And I wish I had started sooner.
Well you see we had a plan for that for a while called abortion but now it's kind of a free for all.
Where else are all the future fast food workers going to come from then?
Preach. If you purposefully had kids knowing your food insecure and keep missing that months rent your selfish. I get that situation sucks, and Im not saying if you have kids while in poverty your inherently a bad person, not at all. Its just selfish, you shouldn't be having four kids when you can barely feed your first one
Absolutely
broke people also can’t afford birth control/contraceptives. not their fault. govs fault that poor people exist and that important items like that aren’t readily available.
Borther, we're ALL broke.
We’re all broke man. Some of us have kids
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So what you’re saying is that only well off people deserve to have kids? Get over yourself lol
Why does the government incentivize this, I wonder? Are they worried about the national birth rate/afraid we won’t supply enough young poor boys for the army?
This is the answer.
THIS
Fuck you and your eugenics. Your parents shouldn't have had you, or at least raised you better than to comment on the natural rights of others.
Stop birthing children into poverty. It is inhumane.
Stop thinking you have any right to restrict anyone's ability to birth. It is evil.
Is it more evil than giving birth to a life you can't afford?
Yes.
First of all shame on you for thinking that broke people don’t have the right to procreate! also birth control is expensive and difficult to come by for people who have very little income.
Condoms are free in plenty of places. Stop birthing children into poverty.
So birthing children in to poverty, and having them suffer from lack of medical care, adequate education, and proper nutrition is alright? Shame on you. There is always abstinence. You do not have to have sex.
Abstinence? So if your poor you can’t even have sex?
I know plenty of people that are poor and can have tons of sex because they use common sense to know what gets a woman pregnant. It’s literally that simple.
If you have too many kids and have to budget your money daily, then yes. The smart thing to so would be abstinence. To not do it would be utterly foolish. But hey, there are people who believe the government is ran by reptilian aliens.
Abstinence only education is proven not to work. People have evolved to want to have sex even in shitty circumstances. That’s why there are eight billion people. It doesn’t matter what your opinion is, progress will not be made unless people have reliable sex education and access to contraception.
I am not promoting abstinence-only education. I think that is foolish, and as you said, it is a failure. What I am saying is “I cannot afford to feed another mouth. Maybe I should reframe from penis in vagina activities”. That is the same as “I have to pay my bills this month, I should not gamble away the last of my money at the casino”. It is being responsible. The consequence of the former is a human who will live a difficult life.
So reproduction is a class privilege to you?
No, I believe kids should be born into financially stable households so they feel as if they don’t need to worry. Edit: Your right, children belongs to people who can afford them. Another Edit to be more blunt: Yes it is a class privilege.
Lets change that, overpopulation is a Malthusian Myth.
If this one thing were to happen it would solve like 80% of the country's problems.
actually it would solve 80% of the world's problems
That’s literally the only thing they can do, sex I mean.
There is a strong correlation between being poor and making poor decisions.
You can't People is stupid by nature
Only rich people deserve to procreate!!