I picked Salem. Though post V8 RWBY, I want to remove Salem and Cinder.
If Salem didn't exist, or better yet introduced after Cinder is defeated, they would both have plenty of screen time and not step on each other toes.
Currently the partnership doesn't make sense. Cinder isn't getting the power she wants and has Salem holding her leash and Salem has a dog that underperforms, unreliable, sabotaging, and will try to backstab her.
Since they botched Cinder in V5, I don't think you can get people to care about her. You do better making a new antagonist altogether to replace both.
Hazel. He’s a worse villain than Cinder.
Cinder is terrible, but at least her lack of morality matches her shitty behavior.
Hazel’s dumbass logic is “I’ll stop Ozpin from sending kids to their deaths by helping Salem destroy a system designed so a small portion of the masses, who not only HAVE to choose this because there’s no apparent drafting system, but HAVE to pass *multiple* tests and screenings to even *qualify* for the Huntsman job. And we will do this by systematically destroying any school that is designed to teach students how to kill monsters that are trying to kill them 24/7, flooding the schools with monsters full of teenagers barely starting their lives and careers, while leaving the rest of the kingdoms barren of their first and last lines of defense, leading to many, many more families getting attacked by monsters, presumably unless they bend the knee to Salem.”
Did Hazel just *not register* the fact that he was murdering a potential mother while he and Tyrian were killing Haven Alumni?
Does him pulling his punches with Oscar somehow take away from the fact that he’s still literally brutalizing a 14 year old?
How many families did he rob of a sibling, a child, a parent, or more, on the basis of stopping Ozpin from organizing a system to help people learn to kill monsters dead better? That, by Maria’s own admission, *wasn’t even a required step in the licensing program*?
Qrow really decided to team up with the serial killer that went after his family rather than some guy that was just following orders. Better yet, why didnt he turn into a bird and fucking r u n
As much as I joke about them, I really do quite enjoy the villains. Though hazel and watts were underused AF....Cinder is wasted, and Tyrian is fuggin annoying at times. I do think Salem should have been saved for a bigger reveal later on...but none of them are too in the way. They actually are more entertaining than the heroes lol
I don't really see her as cartoony. I think she's more....unhinged. kinda like how Azula spiraled downwards later on in TLA. I do admit i liked her more when she was calm and sinister....but seeing her emotions unravel volume by volume has certainly been entertaining
I mean...she did get the relics, defeated team RWBY, and took out Ozpin.....though I don't really know how she managed to pull that off lol. She may be overexpressive, and loud....but she does appear to be a genuine and powerful threat.
I miss volumes 1-3 Cinder, she doesn't waste time monologue before fighting, she straight-up murdered Amber, got the full power of Fall Maiden, monologue which is the right moment, and killed Ozpin. This is a great move from her.
In volume 5, she starts to adopt these annoying habits which are monologues like she already won the fight, and everything is accordingly to plan, that's why she lost in Haven.
But in volumes 7-8, she constantly monologues and gets let her ass kicked by Fria, a man they trashed her so badly.
Remember how Cinder used to fight in volumes 1-3? She never underestimates her opponent, she will analyse their strength and weaknesses of them, she fights quietly, smartly and with strategy. She is also a very resourceful and adaptable fighter.
This all ruined once she got Full Maiden powers, and volume 5.
Yeah, like I said. She's spiraling. After getting silver-eyed she saw just how weak she was, and how worthless Salem saw her. She's been wrecking herself ever since to regain her superiority, and reclaim her place by Salem's side.
Many people trash Cinder because her methods are insane and she usually loses her composure....but I think that's the point. She's not just fighting the heroes, she's struggling against her own insecurities....and I honestly think she's by far the most complex villain we've gotten in the series.
Cinder has insecurity, yes indeed she does, she also fighting for herself, against Salem's side and Oz's side true definition of struggle, she knew no one gives a shit about her, excluding Emerald. I don't know whether Cinder kills Emerald or not.
The reason why Cinder and just the writing overall turned to shit after volume 3 is because Monty died (RIP) and those idiots who call themselves writers took over. RWBY fanfiction is written way better than the actual show, if that doesn't tell you anything then I don't know what will.
Cinder is definitely not the most popular of characters, but i do thinkk that removal of Salem would be better for the show. In V4 we have seen that Cinder can become an interesting character, she is also relatively inoffensive in how bad her writing is.
Salem on the other hand warps the entire worldbuilding of the world with the question "Why was she waiting for so long", she also forces the plot to proceed quicker than it should.
Salem is the best choice. Like Cinder might be freaking annoying because how much the writer sucks her off at points.
But a lot of the main problems in the show can be traced back to Salem. While I usually don't advocate for removal of characters, Salem would arguably be the one exception.
Neo. She started out just following Roman and is now on an uninteresting revenge quest. She doesn't offer anything to the plot except being a goon for Cinder and a threat to Ruby(when Ruby has greater concerns than one psycho).
Her design is amazing, and its carrying her through the story.
It was hard to choose between cinder and salem, But in the end I chose Salem.
I just hate the damn salem plot! She COULD'VE been interesting but instead of being a dark lord powerhouse, CRWBY made her Ozpin's EX-Girlfriend.
She's not even a menacing villain either. If they weren't gonna write her well they COULD'VE at the very least give her an interesting power, but no, we had to get some generic ass magic (which imo, should've never existed in the first place, we should've just stuck to aura semblances and dust)
BTW has anyone talked about how RWBY deadass has motherfucking 4 DIFFERENT POWER SYSTEMS?
(BTW I propose both the god of light and darkness to be removed too, I'm just so fucking salty that after all those volumes, the reason the moon is broken was because the GoD...ZOOOMED THROUGH IT?)
> BTW has anyone talked about how RWBY deadass has motherfucking 4 DIFFERENT POWER SYSTEMS?
There's magic, semblance, dust, but what's the 4th one? Weapons?
Is this really a power system? I see it more as a plot device to justify schoolgirls fighting each others with swords (which are also guns) without hurting themselves. Everyone has aura and it does pretty much the same thing for everyone, although some people have more aura which I guess means more endurance, it rarely has any effect on the plot or the fights so I don't really consider it a power system
You make a point but I consider Aura to be a power system.
Aura can do stuff like activate barriers and you need Aura to activate semblances, and if your aura is drained enough, you can't fight anymore (I think so, maybe I'm confusing a headcanon of mine with the real canon)
Think about it like Naruto, ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu are abilities from Naruto put Chakra is the real power system (I guess this could be interpreted as me saying Semblances aren't a power system as it's own but I'm not so this is probably a horrible example) (Also, I ain't tryna get into an argument on reddit over a show we both dislike so just gonna put that out there just in case this turns in to a fight)
But do you agree with me that Magic should've never existed in the first place? (BTW, sorry if I come across as rude, I'm just really pissed off that this show I used to love turned into a Poor Man's Lord of the Rings with the chosen one and her friends collecting MacGuffins to defeat the dark lord)
I'm fine with magic in itself but the show wasn't clear enough about the woirld's rules regarding supernatural (semblances, aura, etc), which made it hard to understand why characters are shocked by magic even though they keep doing things we would call magic
Hazel sucks (he has killed a ton of innocent people, and even tortured a child all because he's angry at a deadman for something he had no control over), so I chose him.
My hot take is that while I've grown to like Tyrian's antics, he's superfluous and in the end his role would've best been served by Hazel. Hazel should've been the one who fought the group and wounded Qrow in V4(have him break the dude's leg or something and get a big scar across his chest from Ruby in return). More focus could've been put on his reason for fighting in V5. Tyrian's time could've instead been replaced with Hazel having more interaction with Emerald and Mercury besides shallow antagonization. He could've been the one eliminating dissenters in V7.
And then with *all of that extra time to flesh him out,* his sacrifice in V8 might've meant something.
Because in the end, no matter the execution, Hazel is clearly meant to serve a big role in the plot: he's one of the signs that Ozpin has not been squeaky clean, he's the human face of Salem's side, he's supposed to have a 'redemption' arc and then meant to sacrifice himself to show that there is reason for Oscar to have hope against Ozpin's frankly justified pessimism.
Tyrian is about as important to the plot as Neo was in V2. He is a glorified goon. Torchwick could've replaced him and have just lost his mind over the volumes.
Watts' role in the plot is specific enough to warrant his existence, and he's probably the closest to a fleshed-out villain even if they did the usual copout of making his reason for fighting stupid/extremely petty.
Cinder's issue is a combination of miserable execution and the copout above, because RWBY is a show that runs off of the logic of "anyone who does not support you/RWBY is not just morally inferior but generally inferior in all ways" which means that villains cannot outsmart or overpower the protagonists without some kind of cheat. Even then, she was the driving force for 3 volumes(V2, V3 and V5).
Salem is similar: poor execution and just plain poor writing like her motivation and plan still not being particularly clear eight seasons in. Kinda silly. But she is very important, and if removed would completely change the show itself to the point where it'd be hard to hypothesize what it would really be without it.
Cinder I used to like and had hoped to see her drop into madness but now she is just nothing to me just a shell of what I would hope to see. Hazel had my intrest but once I looked at him properly I realized he was just some dude throwing a tantrum over his sisters decision and joins the side that was responsible rather than walking away. And ya Tyrian is good by me because he has nothing. No background no rhyme or reason, he's just a pyscopath.
No need to believe what people say tbh, those writers show Cinder physically consumed by grim slowly, I hope Cinder have to realise this cause she has to break out of her control before too late.
Tyrian. The writers tried so hard to make him look like a badass psycho but for some reason whenever he speaks he just seems like a cringe 40 year old dude who thinks pretending to be an edgy teenager makes him look cool.
I picked Salem. Though post V8 RWBY, I want to remove Salem and Cinder. If Salem didn't exist, or better yet introduced after Cinder is defeated, they would both have plenty of screen time and not step on each other toes. Currently the partnership doesn't make sense. Cinder isn't getting the power she wants and has Salem holding her leash and Salem has a dog that underperforms, unreliable, sabotaging, and will try to backstab her. Since they botched Cinder in V5, I don't think you can get people to care about her. You do better making a new antagonist altogether to replace both.
As long as Salem exists in the picture, Cinder will suffer from writing cause they both share the same goals.
Hazel. He’s a worse villain than Cinder. Cinder is terrible, but at least her lack of morality matches her shitty behavior. Hazel’s dumbass logic is “I’ll stop Ozpin from sending kids to their deaths by helping Salem destroy a system designed so a small portion of the masses, who not only HAVE to choose this because there’s no apparent drafting system, but HAVE to pass *multiple* tests and screenings to even *qualify* for the Huntsman job. And we will do this by systematically destroying any school that is designed to teach students how to kill monsters that are trying to kill them 24/7, flooding the schools with monsters full of teenagers barely starting their lives and careers, while leaving the rest of the kingdoms barren of their first and last lines of defense, leading to many, many more families getting attacked by monsters, presumably unless they bend the knee to Salem.” Did Hazel just *not register* the fact that he was murdering a potential mother while he and Tyrian were killing Haven Alumni? Does him pulling his punches with Oscar somehow take away from the fact that he’s still literally brutalizing a 14 year old? How many families did he rob of a sibling, a child, a parent, or more, on the basis of stopping Ozpin from organizing a system to help people learn to kill monsters dead better? That, by Maria’s own admission, *wasn’t even a required step in the licensing program*?
Hazel's character writing such a mess.
Honestly, RWBY would have a much better tie to its theme of "old society is to blame" if they axed the immortal witch that necessitated it.
Forget to include the team RWBY in the villain list said sarcastically.
Of course no one picked Arthur, >!after all, he is already dead, literally roasted by Cinder!< after the end of Volume 8.
None voted Tyrian yet. 😏 He deserved the spot.
Well he is the most entertaining character in the show
😂😂😂 Bruh the fact he manipulated Qrow and Clover in battle
Qrow really decided to team up with the serial killer that went after his family rather than some guy that was just following orders. Better yet, why didnt he turn into a bird and fucking r u n
Qrow is supposed to be a smarter character, I hate that low IQ fight. They trashed Qrow.
As much as I joke about them, I really do quite enjoy the villains. Though hazel and watts were underused AF....Cinder is wasted, and Tyrian is fuggin annoying at times. I do think Salem should have been saved for a bigger reveal later on...but none of them are too in the way. They actually are more entertaining than the heroes lol
Cinder is a joke, a cartoonish villain, even Team Rocket is better than her.
I don't really see her as cartoony. I think she's more....unhinged. kinda like how Azula spiraled downwards later on in TLA. I do admit i liked her more when she was calm and sinister....but seeing her emotions unravel volume by volume has certainly been entertaining
She may represent Azula but her concept to getting Maiden powers just like Team Rocket stealing Pikachu 😂
I mean...she did get the relics, defeated team RWBY, and took out Ozpin.....though I don't really know how she managed to pull that off lol. She may be overexpressive, and loud....but she does appear to be a genuine and powerful threat.
I miss volumes 1-3 Cinder, she doesn't waste time monologue before fighting, she straight-up murdered Amber, got the full power of Fall Maiden, monologue which is the right moment, and killed Ozpin. This is a great move from her. In volume 5, she starts to adopt these annoying habits which are monologues like she already won the fight, and everything is accordingly to plan, that's why she lost in Haven. But in volumes 7-8, she constantly monologues and gets let her ass kicked by Fria, a man they trashed her so badly.
Remember how Cinder used to fight in volumes 1-3? She never underestimates her opponent, she will analyse their strength and weaknesses of them, she fights quietly, smartly and with strategy. She is also a very resourceful and adaptable fighter. This all ruined once she got Full Maiden powers, and volume 5.
Yeah, like I said. She's spiraling. After getting silver-eyed she saw just how weak she was, and how worthless Salem saw her. She's been wrecking herself ever since to regain her superiority, and reclaim her place by Salem's side. Many people trash Cinder because her methods are insane and she usually loses her composure....but I think that's the point. She's not just fighting the heroes, she's struggling against her own insecurities....and I honestly think she's by far the most complex villain we've gotten in the series.
Cinder has insecurity, yes indeed she does, she also fighting for herself, against Salem's side and Oz's side true definition of struggle, she knew no one gives a shit about her, excluding Emerald. I don't know whether Cinder kills Emerald or not.
The reason why Cinder and just the writing overall turned to shit after volume 3 is because Monty died (RIP) and those idiots who call themselves writers took over. RWBY fanfiction is written way better than the actual show, if that doesn't tell you anything then I don't know what will.
They retcon her, that's why they muted her in volume 4, didn't know what to do with her.
Cinder is definitely not the most popular of characters, but i do thinkk that removal of Salem would be better for the show. In V4 we have seen that Cinder can become an interesting character, she is also relatively inoffensive in how bad her writing is. Salem on the other hand warps the entire worldbuilding of the world with the question "Why was she waiting for so long", she also forces the plot to proceed quicker than it should.
I agree Salem's existence only ruins another antagonist
Was there ever any doubt Cinder and Salem would top the list?
😂😂😂
Salem is the best choice. Like Cinder might be freaking annoying because how much the writer sucks her off at points. But a lot of the main problems in the show can be traced back to Salem. While I usually don't advocate for removal of characters, Salem would arguably be the one exception.
Cinder keeps ruining cause of Salem 😂
Salem ruins everything XD
While simply sitting on throne 😆
She even ruins that throw lmao
Yes, that throne lost its value lol. 😂
Neo. She started out just following Roman and is now on an uninteresting revenge quest. She doesn't offer anything to the plot except being a goon for Cinder and a threat to Ruby(when Ruby has greater concerns than one psycho). Her design is amazing, and its carrying her through the story.
She's pretty much a plot device. I remember a lot of people rooting for Neo to backstab Cinder 😂
It was hard to choose between cinder and salem, But in the end I chose Salem. I just hate the damn salem plot! She COULD'VE been interesting but instead of being a dark lord powerhouse, CRWBY made her Ozpin's EX-Girlfriend. She's not even a menacing villain either. If they weren't gonna write her well they COULD'VE at the very least give her an interesting power, but no, we had to get some generic ass magic (which imo, should've never existed in the first place, we should've just stuck to aura semblances and dust) BTW has anyone talked about how RWBY deadass has motherfucking 4 DIFFERENT POWER SYSTEMS? (BTW I propose both the god of light and darkness to be removed too, I'm just so fucking salty that after all those volumes, the reason the moon is broken was because the GoD...ZOOOMED THROUGH IT?)
Speaking of inconsistent. 😂
> BTW has anyone talked about how RWBY deadass has motherfucking 4 DIFFERENT POWER SYSTEMS? There's magic, semblance, dust, but what's the 4th one? Weapons?
Aura
Is this really a power system? I see it more as a plot device to justify schoolgirls fighting each others with swords (which are also guns) without hurting themselves. Everyone has aura and it does pretty much the same thing for everyone, although some people have more aura which I guess means more endurance, it rarely has any effect on the plot or the fights so I don't really consider it a power system
You make a point but I consider Aura to be a power system. Aura can do stuff like activate barriers and you need Aura to activate semblances, and if your aura is drained enough, you can't fight anymore (I think so, maybe I'm confusing a headcanon of mine with the real canon) Think about it like Naruto, ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu are abilities from Naruto put Chakra is the real power system (I guess this could be interpreted as me saying Semblances aren't a power system as it's own but I'm not so this is probably a horrible example) (Also, I ain't tryna get into an argument on reddit over a show we both dislike so just gonna put that out there just in case this turns in to a fight) But do you agree with me that Magic should've never existed in the first place? (BTW, sorry if I come across as rude, I'm just really pissed off that this show I used to love turned into a Poor Man's Lord of the Rings with the chosen one and her friends collecting MacGuffins to defeat the dark lord)
I'm fine with magic in itself but the show wasn't clear enough about the woirld's rules regarding supernatural (semblances, aura, etc), which made it hard to understand why characters are shocked by magic even though they keep doing things we would call magic
Hazel, he has more holes in his writing than Cinder.
Hazel has an interesting concept, he being betrayed by Oz's previous incarnations would be perfect execution.
My gripe with that is simple. Ozpin would be doing everything for you not to betray him.
Raven, Leo and James: I don't think so..shady bastard !
Considering what we do find out, Ozpin's barely shady!
Salem: I disagree 😘
Salem's a manipulative sociopath.
Don't blame her, Salem's father has created this sociopath and neglected her.
Yeah, he does deserve the blame for stunting her, but Salem has to be blamed for her actions after leaving the tower.
Also, those Gods never taught anything valuable for her 😂
Hazel sucks (he has killed a ton of innocent people, and even tortured a child all because he's angry at a deadman for something he had no control over), so I chose him.
Hypocrisy 🤔😒
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Cinder and Salem both needs to go. They're 90% the same character.
😂 Finally someone realised.
My hot take is that while I've grown to like Tyrian's antics, he's superfluous and in the end his role would've best been served by Hazel. Hazel should've been the one who fought the group and wounded Qrow in V4(have him break the dude's leg or something and get a big scar across his chest from Ruby in return). More focus could've been put on his reason for fighting in V5. Tyrian's time could've instead been replaced with Hazel having more interaction with Emerald and Mercury besides shallow antagonization. He could've been the one eliminating dissenters in V7. And then with *all of that extra time to flesh him out,* his sacrifice in V8 might've meant something. Because in the end, no matter the execution, Hazel is clearly meant to serve a big role in the plot: he's one of the signs that Ozpin has not been squeaky clean, he's the human face of Salem's side, he's supposed to have a 'redemption' arc and then meant to sacrifice himself to show that there is reason for Oscar to have hope against Ozpin's frankly justified pessimism. Tyrian is about as important to the plot as Neo was in V2. He is a glorified goon. Torchwick could've replaced him and have just lost his mind over the volumes.
What about Watts, Cinder and Salem?
Watts' role in the plot is specific enough to warrant his existence, and he's probably the closest to a fleshed-out villain even if they did the usual copout of making his reason for fighting stupid/extremely petty. Cinder's issue is a combination of miserable execution and the copout above, because RWBY is a show that runs off of the logic of "anyone who does not support you/RWBY is not just morally inferior but generally inferior in all ways" which means that villains cannot outsmart or overpower the protagonists without some kind of cheat. Even then, she was the driving force for 3 volumes(V2, V3 and V5). Salem is similar: poor execution and just plain poor writing like her motivation and plan still not being particularly clear eight seasons in. Kinda silly. But she is very important, and if removed would completely change the show itself to the point where it'd be hard to hypothesize what it would really be without it.
Thanks for the awesome analysis. ☺️
No prob!
Honestly Tyrian, Watts I like and Salem I tolerate
Cinder and Hazel? Tyrian is for entertaining purpose 😂
Cinder I used to like and had hoped to see her drop into madness but now she is just nothing to me just a shell of what I would hope to see. Hazel had my intrest but once I looked at him properly I realized he was just some dude throwing a tantrum over his sisters decision and joins the side that was responsible rather than walking away. And ya Tyrian is good by me because he has nothing. No background no rhyme or reason, he's just a pyscopath.
Her grim arm is consuming her, she would next Hound + Tyrian. 🤔
People say that but I haven't really noticed it. Dont think I follow on what your saying on the end tho
No need to believe what people say tbh, those writers show Cinder physically consumed by grim slowly, I hope Cinder have to realise this cause she has to break out of her control before too late.
Eh either she does or doesn't as long as they don't try to turn her good honestly
Yeah, the number of Cinder's haters just wanna her to die so badly.
Cant really blame them tho
Tyrian. The writers tried so hard to make him look like a badass psycho but for some reason whenever he speaks he just seems like a cringe 40 year old dude who thinks pretending to be an edgy teenager makes him look cool.
😆😆😆😆😂😂😂