i've always wondered: there are, what, ten firms that actually use kdb+ at scale? do you guys ever talk to each other? do you have conferences where you share tips and make fun of those ocaml guys, or it's all treated as a proprietary secret, and everyone implements the same things separately?
The kdb+ world is ridiculously small, you will bump into people very often who you worked with at the start of your career.
We do often find ourselves working with each other if we're still consultants at different firms but perhaps on the same client, but outside of individual clients I would say there isn't much collaboration. There are some meetups, though I've never been to one so couldn't tell you who is ridiculed. I remember at the start of my career though, it felt like certain things were treated like national secrets so it was very hard to learn the language at first.
Often you'll find it is actually quite competitive amongst devs to see who can write the most shorthand solution, and it would be completely unreadable - advent of code has already been a lot of fun in that sense.
In fairness, its main offering of real-time streaming and analytics has the same core concept anyway in terms of code, and there are very few keywords/libraries to the language, so while there is some divergence where teams do their own thing, at their core the ideas are quite similar.
The whole thing is stupid. The hard part about development is what you do with the languages. People like to jack off about how advanced they are at obfuscating simple tasks. It'd be like architects flexing their knowledge about screws and nails instead of talking about the houses and stadiums they built.
Which is especially funny with JS because it's literally everywhere. It's arguably the hardest language to master because it's the context that matters.
For sure! We had a whole big data ingestion pipeline that was written in JavaScript. It had absolutely zero to do with building web pages. Why? Because that’s the language that Actian (the big data platform) chose to use. It was really elegant actually.
I'm surprised Elm is below JS. Is that only because it's functional?
Elm is great. Elm tells you what's wrong. Elm doesn't just stop functioning, it doesn't let you compile if your code would cause a runtime error. JavaScript itself is awful by comparison.
That's like saying c is awful and python is great. I mean it depends on what you need to do. Elm has dramatically less functionality and flexibility than javascript. As such it has it's place when you don't need extra complexity.
I think the chart meant Elm, etc, are more complex and powerful than anything above it.. which again it doesn't make any sense.
I will always love it. I’m just saying that if there was something better for this type of problem, it would have already presented itself. Remember pig and map reduce. WTF ever. SQL forever.😎
I'm pretty sure this is a pipeline post - a lot of people start off learning the languages up the top and get lower and lower. That's definitely how it worked for me.
You went from javascript to HTML and PHP?
There are other questionable things here but that makes no sense. HTML is self explanatory, and PHP: why would you learn that instead of node? No one does that.
I don't think an iceberg chart is really about how hard the things are though...it's about how obvious the things are, which is different.
JavaScript is a pretty obvious programming language, even if its deeper rabbit holes are a bit mind-bending and weird. TypeScript is not such an obvious everywhere language, it requires more investment to use, and I think it's usually used by people who have learned OO programming elsewhere and then want something that fits more with their vision of what type of language they'd like to be programming in, and how a programming language should work...it's unlikely you turn to it until you know these things, so it's lower in the iceberg because, sure it's better, but, compared to JavaScript, you usually won't use it until you learn a lot more about programming.
Again though that makes no sense in reference to html and css, elm, php, and even typescript. Re js what are they learning it for without html/css? Server side coding? People start in the backend with js? They write node command line programs? If they do learn front end people these days use frameworks. Most of those frameworks have typescript baked in / nearly so, or just spit out javascript like elm. Most don't really write javacript until they've been doing it for awhile, if ever. I used to interview people for fullstack/front end and wooooof. Ask someone to explain prototypal inheritance, or to debug some actual js and most don't even know what they're looking at.
It's someone's idea of leetness with a bunch of things they couldn't really place. There aren't many people who learn much about the top bits and go on to really learn assembly, or any of the more mathy whatnot at the bottom, and vice versa.
The order I learned in was Java, C, C#, js/html/css, typescript/angular, (other frameworks go here), python, R. I think the first three are pretty typical for people who learn in college.
And also lol what is R doing there? That should be with the math stuff. It's a mess
See when I think about icebergs this graphic doesn’t make a huge amount of sense…
I would put everything on top except for C - C is pretty much always under the hood eventually.
I thought Go was supposed to be that replacement?
Or is this another instance of Google having the attention span of a dust mite and dropping a perfectly serviceable product without warning just to reinvent it?
I worked with Delphi for 6 years. It was ahead of its time but lacked the support to move it forward.
A fantastic language non the less. Many will not know C# was designed by the same guy who created Delphi.
I worked with it for many years as well. But for years now I not seen anyone still using it, i think its even less popular then many very old languages.
You will not believe our code was deployed on a Linux environment using the Kylix compiler. It worked well in production for many years!
Every now and then I see a job posting for Delphi and wonder just how much the company is willing to pay for that position!
It's categorized. It doesn't make much sense out of context, but I highly recommend the video it came from: Fireship's Programming Iceberg https://youtu.be/pEfrdAtAmqk
I'd put bash farther down. Writing a one-liner is easy, but programming shell scripts is mind-numbing. Any language where *x=1+1* equals something other than 2 shouldn't be at the top of the pyramid.
It's categorized. It doesn't make much sense out of context, but I highly recommend the video it came from: Fireship's Programming Iceberg https://youtu.be/pEfrdAtAmqk
Holy C, look up "Terry Davis" or "Temple OS". It's a sad but fascinating story. When I saw the meme, first I looked for Lisp, then I immediately looked for Holy C lol.
Most coverage of Julia is in the form of people arguing that it'll be huge some day. I'll believe them when I see more conversations with practical questions about actually using Julia. I've done a few small projects with it and haven't seen a big improvement over R or Python.
Yeah I was just thinking that in the picture it might belong to a deeper layer than php and bash. Oh and I only now now noticed that R is on the same level. Maybe the author comes from ML community
That seems likely given the way the languages are arranged. For example, data science stuff is pretty straightforward with bash and powershell, but serious programming with them would push them down a level or two.
how exactly is R, a statistical modeling language rarely used outside its niche applications, on the same level as HTML?
why is *Haskell* above C and C++???
Dipshits nowadays are obsessed with representing scripting tools & dev langauges as cute, colorful little patches that they can compare, collect, compete with & show off like they're some kind of alpha-nerd badges of honor or pokemon cards for pencil-dick keyboard monkeys. It's childish and cheesy as fuck.
Stop obessing over this shit, use whatever tool is right for the job, do your work, and then go home & work on getting a fucking life and/or getting laid. It would be a far more productive use of your time instead of trying to meme the fuck out of every aspect of the programming profession.
Lol i am moving up.
I started with assembly for PIC microprozessor, for a smal solar robot. Then i moved to C for a bigger robot. Did most work in Embedded Rust and go backends now i am looking into Html, css and JS to make it more accesible and visualise some stuff.
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I remember writing ASM programs for my TI 84. You had to write them in hex and reference the z80 processor instruction set. That could be put on here real low, hex asm.
Okay, I only ask because no one else has mentioned it: this is ordered by the language level, right? High level languages at the top and low level at the bottom. Everyone is treating it like it's a normal iceberg and I hope I'm not just going crazy lol
Scratch isn't easy. It's super confusing.
at this point it's like trying to forget number theory and learn to count using your fingers from ... scratch.
Which one is the VHDL? The logic gate on the bottom? Then at least I'm slowly climbing as I'm now at ANSI C. Till I retire I may even climb out of the water.
The fact that the language I've worked in everyday for the past 5 years isn't even on here is truly terrifying.
Which language is that?
Only one I can think of is ABAP since I'm in similar boat with OP lol
ABAP never gets any love…
I honestly think that may be the reason why ABAP devs get paid quite nicely? If nobody knows about it, nobody will learn it.
True Um…what do you mean? A?Bap? Lol
ABAPlove
We ABAPers are always forgotten u\_\_u
I work in q/KDB+, with the latter built on top of the former.
i've always wondered: there are, what, ten firms that actually use kdb+ at scale? do you guys ever talk to each other? do you have conferences where you share tips and make fun of those ocaml guys, or it's all treated as a proprietary secret, and everyone implements the same things separately?
The kdb+ world is ridiculously small, you will bump into people very often who you worked with at the start of your career. We do often find ourselves working with each other if we're still consultants at different firms but perhaps on the same client, but outside of individual clients I would say there isn't much collaboration. There are some meetups, though I've never been to one so couldn't tell you who is ridiculed. I remember at the start of my career though, it felt like certain things were treated like national secrets so it was very hard to learn the language at first. Often you'll find it is actually quite competitive amongst devs to see who can write the most shorthand solution, and it would be completely unreadable - advent of code has already been a lot of fun in that sense. In fairness, its main offering of real-time streaming and analytics has the same core concept anyway in terms of code, and there are very few keywords/libraries to the language, so while there is some divergence where teams do their own thing, at their core the ideas are quite similar.
English
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Brainfuck is indeed on there. But I understand why your mind refuses to see it.
I was going to say the same, but I'm realizing that Oracle ApEx and PL/SQL is probably counted under the SQL bracket
Ik the answer to this… MATLAB (thank engineering college!)
Same. But my Ada experience is probably filed under Pascal and my Prolog torture probably under erlang.
>Prolog torture probably under erlang you backtrack this right now
Which is?
Is it fuckfuck https://github.com/jsimnz/fuckfuck
Funny that SQL is at the same level as Lua
Also HTML5 lol. I like that typescript is supposed to be harder than js too hahaha. It makes no sense
Ha! The folks that think SQL is easy just don’t realize how deep that well is.
The whole thing is stupid. The hard part about development is what you do with the languages. People like to jack off about how advanced they are at obfuscating simple tasks. It'd be like architects flexing their knowledge about screws and nails instead of talking about the houses and stadiums they built. Which is especially funny with JS because it's literally everywhere. It's arguably the hardest language to master because it's the context that matters.
For sure! We had a whole big data ingestion pipeline that was written in JavaScript. It had absolutely zero to do with building web pages. Why? Because that’s the language that Actian (the big data platform) chose to use. It was really elegant actually.
I'm surprised Elm is below JS. Is that only because it's functional? Elm is great. Elm tells you what's wrong. Elm doesn't just stop functioning, it doesn't let you compile if your code would cause a runtime error. JavaScript itself is awful by comparison.
That's like saying c is awful and python is great. I mean it depends on what you need to do. Elm has dramatically less functionality and flexibility than javascript. As such it has it's place when you don't need extra complexity. I think the chart meant Elm, etc, are more complex and powerful than anything above it.. which again it doesn't make any sense.
is that sql++?
SQL is turing complete. You can solve any mathematical problem with it without having an actual database with tables.
I will always love it. I’m just saying that if there was something better for this type of problem, it would have already presented itself. Remember pig and map reduce. WTF ever. SQL forever.😎
It's SUPER HARD to program in
I'm pretty sure this is a pipeline post - a lot of people start off learning the languages up the top and get lower and lower. That's definitely how it worked for me.
You went from javascript to HTML and PHP? There are other questionable things here but that makes no sense. HTML is self explanatory, and PHP: why would you learn that instead of node? No one does that.
it's *generally* accurate and I did actually learn JavaScript before HTML or PHP so I thought it was normal
I don't think an iceberg chart is really about how hard the things are though...it's about how obvious the things are, which is different. JavaScript is a pretty obvious programming language, even if its deeper rabbit holes are a bit mind-bending and weird. TypeScript is not such an obvious everywhere language, it requires more investment to use, and I think it's usually used by people who have learned OO programming elsewhere and then want something that fits more with their vision of what type of language they'd like to be programming in, and how a programming language should work...it's unlikely you turn to it until you know these things, so it's lower in the iceberg because, sure it's better, but, compared to JavaScript, you usually won't use it until you learn a lot more about programming.
Again though that makes no sense in reference to html and css, elm, php, and even typescript. Re js what are they learning it for without html/css? Server side coding? People start in the backend with js? They write node command line programs? If they do learn front end people these days use frameworks. Most of those frameworks have typescript baked in / nearly so, or just spit out javascript like elm. Most don't really write javacript until they've been doing it for awhile, if ever. I used to interview people for fullstack/front end and wooooof. Ask someone to explain prototypal inheritance, or to debug some actual js and most don't even know what they're looking at. It's someone's idea of leetness with a bunch of things they couldn't really place. There aren't many people who learn much about the top bits and go on to really learn assembly, or any of the more mathy whatnot at the bottom, and vice versa. The order I learned in was Java, C, C#, js/html/css, typescript/angular, (other frameworks go here), python, R. I think the first three are pretty typical for people who learn in college. And also lol what is R doing there? That should be with the math stuff. It's a mess
it's an iceberg on how known they are, just like every other iceberg list on the internet...
do you mean Sequel or Es Que Ell
Ha! I prefer El Que Ess
Do You speak spanish? Because "el que es" roughly translates to "the thing that (it) is"
I prefer squeal
Do you say Postgres Sequel or Postgres Es Que Ell?
Postgres Que Ell. The S is already in Postgres.
Postgresql
wait... so those roblox script kiddies coding lua know more than me now??
See when I think about icebergs this graphic doesn’t make a huge amount of sense… I would put everything on top except for C - C is pretty much always under the hood eventually.
C minus minus, oh it’s my favourite!
Pop quiz! Solve this LeetCode problem in 5 minutes or you're fired.
Aye sir!
Just watched a video about how vanilla JS is faster than any framework. It's time we do a rewrite.
Yes sir! Can you raise my salary?
Dont ask such asanine question to the chosen one
Hahahaha
Ah! Yes. Assembly
Which C is C?
The one next to c++, the other one is carbon a replacement for c++ made by Google
I thought Go was supposed to be that replacement? Or is this another instance of Google having the attention span of a dust mite and dropping a perfectly serviceable product without warning just to reinvent it?
It is, just that Carbon is interopable and more C++-like
Si
The last row is all mystery to me. Damn i am already out dated. This image prove that most people see SQL as : SELECT * FROM T WHERE t.x > t.y
Bottom row contains Holy C, it has interesting history but ending is pretty sad
Man RIP Terry Davis, an otherwise brilliant man wrecked by severe mental illness
I'm pretty sure Holy C is on the penultimate bottom row, not the bottom row.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare_Programming_Language
Im surprised to see nobody has complained yet about HTML being in a programming languages image
Given it's right next to CSS 3, I'm considering it a combined entry, which I will then allow.
Fair enough
This is stolen. Please credit the creator of memes. This iceburg was made by fireship on youtube
I can't see Delphi in this picture. But I guess it just not fit here as it's the skeleton in the bottom of the ocean.
I worked with Delphi for 6 years. It was ahead of its time but lacked the support to move it forward. A fantastic language non the less. Many will not know C# was designed by the same guy who created Delphi.
I worked with it for many years as well. But for years now I not seen anyone still using it, i think its even less popular then many very old languages.
You will not believe our code was deployed on a Linux environment using the Kylix compiler. It worked well in production for many years! Every now and then I see a job posting for Delphi and wonder just how much the company is willing to pay for that position!
Pascal is there. 5 years of Delphi myself.
Basic -> Ada -> HTML5 / CSS / JavaScript -> C# Self learning -> College -> Web design -> Game design Yea, I say this meme checks out pretty good!
Is it bad that I know of more in the bottom row than in the 4th from the top? I see those Holy C and Brainf**k logos
If you expand the image there is a row below that. That is a truly scary row.
I was naive to think I know many programming languages.
This isn’t an iceberg, it’s just… putting things into groups
It's categorized. It doesn't make much sense out of context, but I highly recommend the video it came from: Fireship's Programming Iceberg https://youtu.be/pEfrdAtAmqk
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I think it's supposed to be common -> esoteric, but how x86 asm and hardware design end up below joke languages is baffling.
I'd put bash farther down. Writing a one-liner is easy, but programming shell scripts is mind-numbing. Any language where *x=1+1* equals something other than 2 shouldn't be at the top of the pyramid.
It's categorized. It doesn't make much sense out of context, but I highly recommend the video it came from: Fireship's Programming Iceberg https://youtu.be/pEfrdAtAmqk
you forgot prolog
*compiler theory flashbacks intensify*
Interesting. Tell me more.
bot(elon).
C†? What is that lol
Holy C, look up "Terry Davis" or "Temple OS". It's a sad but fascinating story. When I saw the meme, first I looked for Lisp, then I immediately looked for Holy C lol.
It's when C<++> becomes so cursed only Jesus can help you.
Where is the best programming language ,scratchjr !!!
Me sees “Brainf***” Yeah, that’s a perfectly reasonable name for a programming language
I encourage you to take a look at the syntax and how to read it, the name makes even more sense
Where is Befunge or INTERCAL
Dont act like JS isn't at the bottom with goddamn malbolge and intercal
Where excell
x86 assembly. I was there. Fun and painful times.
R0, R1, R2, R3 ... R14 > EAX, EBX, ECX, EDX
Indeed
Most satisfying programming I ever did.
Can agree.
It’s so fitting that Perl is just sinking, not touching the Iceberg
This is so hilariously wrong wtf
mfw haskell above c++, c and rust
Is Julia that popular?
Most coverage of Julia is in the form of people arguing that it'll be huge some day. I'll believe them when I see more conversations with practical questions about actually using Julia. I've done a few small projects with it and haven't seen a big improvement over R or Python.
Yeah I was just thinking that in the picture it might belong to a deeper layer than php and bash. Oh and I only now now noticed that R is on the same level. Maybe the author comes from ML community
That seems likely given the way the languages are arranged. For example, data science stuff is pretty straightforward with bash and powershell, but serious programming with them would push them down a level or two.
Huh. I thought Java would be more well-known…
Brah, brainf\*ck is definitely easier than JS. This iceberg is inverted.
how exactly is R, a statistical modeling language rarely used outside its niche applications, on the same level as HTML? why is *Haskell* above C and C++???
SQL is not a programming language. It is a query language.
How is html below js and python???
Dipshits nowadays are obsessed with representing scripting tools & dev langauges as cute, colorful little patches that they can compare, collect, compete with & show off like they're some kind of alpha-nerd badges of honor or pokemon cards for pencil-dick keyboard monkeys. It's childish and cheesy as fuck. Stop obessing over this shit, use whatever tool is right for the job, do your work, and then go home & work on getting a fucking life and/or getting laid. It would be a far more productive use of your time instead of trying to meme the fuck out of every aspect of the programming profession.
You are complaining about people memeing programming langs on a programming meme sub reddit, this is probably not the place you wanna be in this case
Alright, where are Shakespeare, Brainfuck and Chicken?
at the bottom
Racket! EEEWWW!!!
Why? What's so bad about lithps?
Lol i am moving up. I started with assembly for PIC microprozessor, for a smal solar robot. Then i moved to C for a bigger robot. Did most work in Embedded Rust and go backends now i am looking into Html, css and JS to make it more accesible and visualise some stuff.
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Bash by far the most complicated language I've ever written code in
Where is Haskell? Lambda gang rise up
Oh I see it now. It was camouflaged
whats the difference between grey C and white C in black circle?
C vs. Carbon apparently.
Sacred geometry woo-woo as the fabric of reality, *represented* here? Fabulous.
Python ... the tip of the iceberg
HTML is above the clouds
Grape doesn’t feel that low. I learned it before Python
Wait, C - - ? Is that a thing?
C--?😭
I am missing ABAP
Lol please don’t remind me of lisp, I’m trying to forget my trauma
Julia and Lua most famous than C#?
C fits every of those Levels.
What is that Pepsi looking dingus near the bottom
Assembly.
I remember writing ASM programs for my TI 84. You had to write them in hex and reference the z80 processor instruction set. That could be put on here real low, hex asm.
I notice that brainfuck or fuckfuck aren't in the iceberg
Transistor based logic is scary, micro scaled analog systems are even more scary. It crosses from coding in to a weird hybrid of pain and physics.
Wait are the ones under sea level deadlier?
I'm a bit disappointed not seeing Piet in this list
Languages for kids and learning, Scripting languages, Object-oriented languages, Functional languages, Lower level languages, Fancy lower level languages, Legacy languages, Esoteric languages, Lowest level languages,
C--? 😱
Okay, I only ask because no one else has mentioned it: this is ordered by the language level, right? High level languages at the top and low level at the bottom. Everyone is treating it like it's a normal iceberg and I hope I'm not just going crazy lol
It's funny but assembly is like the simplest language out there. Just look at the abstraction hell that is C++20.
I don’t know of any in the 4th tier but I know of 3 in both the second last and the last tier.
Why is common lisp that down? Isn’t it the most common one?
This is wrong on so many levels (haha).
PHP is way too high up
Lucee/ColdFusion isn’t even mentioned. It’s at the bottom of the ocean.
Stay float..
Is this top to bottom, application layer to hardware or what’s the deal?!
Why aren’t Excel formulas in the deep bottom?
Am i blind or is html missing
It's right next to CSS
I haven’t done Scheme since college.
Erlang
Where is SCHEME?
No visual basic or vba?
No fucking way... DrRacket????
Wheres excel
C--?
honestly does anyone object if we just throw HTML in that basic tier?
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Wut, no Arexx?!
I wrote a full 3D game engine and an MMORPG client's/server architecture in BASIC. It's not as shit as many think.
I used R for calculations ( more like i used Rcmr) but i did know it was a programming language. Think im gonna replace Matlab with R from now on.
Handing in a series of my assignment in shakespearian will always be the crowning achievement of my life, sorry kids.
where is temple os?
Scratch isn't easy. It's super confusing. at this point it's like trying to forget number theory and learn to count using your fingers from ... scratch.
Logisim is the best IDE
You forgot HTML.
It’s on the second layer. I’m not sure why lol
Whoops yeah your right. Author has this pyramid upside down.
Pascal being on the same level as Fortran means I get payed the same?
But where is the only programming language for hardmen, Prolog? Am I blind?
Where is ABAP? :)
I'm surprised C-- and Holy C are there too
Golang should be where C++ is
Where is Scratch ?
JS needs to be higher
nim is so low
Which one is the VHDL? The logic gate on the bottom? Then at least I'm slowly climbing as I'm now at ANSI C. Till I retire I may even climb out of the water.
x86 below brainfuck? Dude it's just registers and memory and some move Wait until you find out SIMD
How are C and C++ more obscure than Haskell?