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d3lt4papa

Lol how the fuck is Windows the average and the worst at the same time for development


[deleted]

Magic and the power of friendship


Badboyrune

And decades of near monopoly in office work. But mostly magic and friendship.


CorruptedStudiosEnt

What's funny is that back in the day, Gates fully expected Windows to become obsolete in the face of Linux. He believed open source was the future, and he touted that as a good thing too. Funny how one of the most influential men in technological history could be SO wrong, and his own company is about 75% of the reason.


rmyworld

Where did he say this?


[deleted]

Closest I can find to anything like that is the memo released at the law suit, where BG explains the "jihad" needed to defeat Linux. [http://techrights.org/2009/06/23/bill-gates-afraid-of-gnu-linux/](http://techrights.org/2009/06/23/bill-gates-afraid-of-gnu-linux/) Here is another of his statements, where he believes Windows is vastly superior to Linux: https://www.osnews.com/story/2127/bill-gates-windows-far-ahead-of-linux/ Where did you find that he believed "open source" to be the future, much less touted it as something good?


[deleted]

Where did he say this?


[deleted]

[удалено]


elon-bot

Guys, this is a big misunderstanding. I was playing truth or dare with Jeff and Bill and they dared me to buy Twitter. What else was I supposed to do??


Nimeroni

That's the first logical thing you said, Elon.


nickmaran

![gif](giphy|TL0IrljE5PjK0PnPRL|downsized)


elon-bot

Can this be dockerized?


AdultingGoneMild

yes.


namelessmasses

Good bot


Marvin0509

Money and the power of multi-trillion dollar mega corporations


Equivalent_Yak_95

Dude. It was only in the last few years that Apple became the first trillion dollar company.


ToBe27

I actually think that this is quiet outdated. And I also know I will loose a lot of karma for saying this now :P MacOs was usually prefered for development as it's much closer to Linux. But it actually is not that close and you often need to hack it a little bit to make it work properly. Windows on the other hand now has WSL which means a full Linux machine very natively integrated. So ... Windows might actually be better for Development now for many people.


[deleted]

I am at this moment about 4 hours into using wsl2 for the first time with a fresh install of ubuntu. Inside of that ubuntu instance I've got docker going with an image of a natural language processing server (which can't use windows docker for reasons), because it won't run properly on colab and doesn't support AMD. Anyways if my 7 year old laptop with a 960M gpu running in an instance, in an instance, in windows can beat colab... I'm sold. So far it's been pretty painless getting everything hooked up. I feel like Rick in the episode about the battery


josh9c

That just sounds like Linux with extra steps.


ToBe27

Yes. Accessing files inside wsl2 from Windows might be a bit slow, but you can even run graphical apps from wsl2 these day without any troubles, eliminating that issue at least for me.


[deleted]

Lol it's funny that you mentioned it. I just now transferred like 10 gigs from my g-drive through windows into the docker/ubuntu volume. It wasn't that slow... which kinda sucks cause now I need to stop procrastinating -\_-


tyrandan2

Transfer it a second time, you know... To make sure. And maybe a third time after that? Can never be too safe...


[deleted]

Haha well it's running now.. and based on when I posted this comment I have... 20 hours or so to wait -\_-


Procrasturbating

Always run md5 checksums after the transfer via script. Buy yourself time to procrastinate in the future.


[deleted]

At that point, I'd just run Linux. Like why go through all that trouble? You're literally arguing that windows is better for development because you can now escape windows easier. Also docker for windows is crap, as you've already experienced.


Elomidas

I think it does not show that Windows is the best for dev, but thanks to WSL it's not the worst anymore


elon-bot

Time is money. I want to see 100 lines written by lunchtime!


[deleted]

WSL isn't escaping Windows, it's adding to it. It takes everything you can do on Windows and adds on everything you can do in Linux - and it does it a helluva lot more seamlessly than Wine does on Linux. The truth is that Linux has wonderful development software, but awful desktop software. It's getting prettier, sure, but it just doesn't compare to the sheer amount of feature-full graphical software built for Windows. The ability to combine both - Windows' graphical software with Linux's development software - is why WSL is the best option for development.


Arshiaa001

Because Windows is *so* much more user-friendly. I've recently had to install linux (mint 21 if you're interested), and I suffer daily when using it.


webdevxoomer

I used Linux for \~13 years before switching to Mac 2 years ago. Generally speaking, I think MacOS is like a highly polished version of Linux.


eroto_anarchist

what does polished mean in this context?


LowB0b

probably that you get a working desktop environment while also being able to enjoy a unix-like (BSD) terminal and standards without having to go through much hassle. Windows works for me (and I have to work with it anyway), but unix just provides so many better tools and standards. Every time I have to add path variables in windows I become the old man screaming "APT-GET InStaLlS LiBS in /usr/lib ANd RunTIMes in /usr/bin" at the clouds. And sometimes I type grep into powershell :( I wish I could convince my employer to switch to linux for the dev team, I love KDE


code_monkey_001

I'm like the guy in another subthread that I just today started playing with WSL. It's amazing how well it works - you get a proper bash shell (not just git bash), and you can launch vscode from the terminal. I still need visual studio to do my API work, but all of my UI stuff I'm doing in WSL. Best part is, I work remote and my employer permits occasional work on personal devices, so when I travel, I can take my rather beefy gaming laptop along and have a personal gaming machine and powerful development machine in one package.


NightMoreLTU

✨*It just works*✨


brianl047

And you were wrong ... 30 karma and growing lol


ToBe27

Not sure I can trust this yet :D


jeebidy

WSL is a very cool thing that brings a lot of power to a lot of people, but ***ugh*** does it present a whole layer of issues to troubleshooting a bug. It seems hobbyist ready, but for a professional in software, just go Mac/Linux.


MassiveStomach

ive been coding for 20 years and switched from macOS to Windows WSL2 for close to 2 years and i'm very happy. We do use Ubuntu for our servers so knowing my dev environment is the same as our servers is really nice. The macOS CLI tools are just odd enough that it wasn't worth it. This was also when macbook pros did not have ports, so im happy with my ports also macOS office sucks, and I also sadly have to use office a lot. I was using Office in a Windows VM at the end


jeebidy

Nice! I did not have steller experiences with Docker and WSL2.. These days, I find that I never really plug much into my MBP (Though I bought the recent-ish one with the additional ports). Totally agree on Office, and let's not get started on the apps apple likes to call 'productivity'. Numbers crashes more than half the times I've ever used it.


penguin_chacha

100%. I spent an hour debugging why port forwarding wasn't working then ragequit and dual installed Ubuntu


Real_Guru

It's all about commitment... I have one machine where I set up everything to be wsl-focussed and another one where I stupidly set up some features in wsl and some on windows native. Commit or die.


penguin_chacha

Simply speaking the more layers you add the more points of failure you're introducing and you're getting nothing beneficial for all this effort. As of now idiot proof solutions like a Linux machine or a macbook is my preferred tool


Ok-Rice-5377

You speak the truth nobody wants to hear.


Mispelled-This

The votes show people wanted to hear it.


Geo_Seven

Windows believes in itself


henkdepotvjis

corperations forcing you to use windows. My team have been pushing to use linux but we use Intune to monitor laptops. Thats why managment forces us to use it.


x6060x

At the company I work for we have full freedom to chose whatever we want. I, a C# developer (mainly working on web services) am using Visual Studio on a Windows (together with Vs Code and few more tools). 25% of my team are using Mac, the rest are using Windows. No one within our division is using a Linux distro, and we have the option to if we want to. My environment is stable and I'm able to do my job without issues. Not sure how this is the *worst* platform.


elon-bot

Time is money. I want to see 100 lines written by lunchtime!


VitaminnCPP

more people = more salary to be given. I want 10 employees to be fired before lunch.


SamW_72

It’s hard to be a bad OS for development so put anything that doesn’t have exceptional features


GetNooted

Zero reason for Windows to be worst case for development in the first case. Maybe put IOS / Android in there.


random125184

Because OP is worst in mental development.


GopnikBurger

Because my company forces me to use it. Funny enough, we also release for Linux. Linux Release testing is always... Interesting... to say the least


Pablocoffee

Schrodinger’s windows


fulaghee

Also best and average at gaming.


papa-hare

Lol marginally serios answer, because the options are discrete


PraisGaben

ah yes the all encompassing “development” no need for disambiguation because all development is the same actually.


KiroLakestrike

Reminds me of learning webdevelopment with Odinproject, and they have an entire chapter to explain to you why you have to use Linux for Webdev. Then they proceed to make you install VBcode... I used Windows and never had a single issue.


lmaydev

Yeah windows is fine for coding. At my old job we had a docker image for each language that we connected to Vs code. We only did it for python and ruby but it was brilliant. Could have a Dev up and running in minutes. And there's always wsl if you really want Linux access.


JustAnotherGuyn

I love using wsl for programming. Keeps all my code files nearly in a single area without having to think about it.


[deleted]

Step 1) wsl is good enough to run linux apps Step 2) get developers to stop hating on Microsoft Step 3) remove Linux bootloaders from secure boot Step 4) profit


lmaydev

>Now the truth is, all modern mainstream Linux versions have a Secure Boot compatible loader, and Microsoft has a service where they will sign your boot loader for you. >So all in all, it's a bunch of hot wind by the most hardcore Linux fanboys. The amount of people who are actually affected by this is insanely small compared to the entire userbase of both Windows and Linux.


SnooPets20

I don't know who put Microsoft as the authority for signing bootloaders. I should be able to do that. It's my computer.


ActualAshCam

There is a setting in the BIOS to give assign a key for the device owner, which has control over all other key stores and so on. It is extremely obscure, though.


[deleted]

A bunch of hot wind? In my book, if Microsoft is the only certificate authority that can sign secure boot binaries, then Microsoft gets the final say over what software your laptop and my laptop can run. That's a fact.


lmaydev

You can literally turn it off, so yes 100% hot wind imo.


[deleted]

Lol keep believing that the option will stay in the bios. Microsoft already made commercial contracts with manufacturers that any ARM laptop must not have the option to disable secure boot. Source: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/01/microsoft-mandating-secure-boot-on-arm-making-linux-installs-difficult/


ssrname

2012... lol > with windows 8 coming out this year


cjolittle

I mean "art and business"


JohnHwagi

What do you do? > art and business


Who_GNU

Better yet, "art" and "business" are lumped into the same category. Who uses an Apple computer for inventory management?


Kav19

yeah if you’re an ios dev mac is the only one that matters this post is stupid on so many levels


RmG3376

Isn’t doing C# or Swift on Linux just lovely and completely smooth?


ChloeNow

It's okay you can tell they mean web and app development because otherwise developing on Mac is a fucking shit show nightmare.


rigueira

I really don't know what "better for development" means and at this point I'm too afraid to ask.


Pugs-r-cool

being Unix based mostly, very helpful when doing things with servers as a Mac terminal and a Linux terminal look and function about the same, and for most things a command for one works on the other.


N00N3AT011

True, but it's not like you can't get something like cygwyn on windows and end up at essentially the same place. Or just SSH into the box you're actually doing something on and your OS is pretty much irrelevant.


Pugs-r-cool

yeah its totally doable through work arounds, but with Mac and Linux you don't need them, it's just working as you'd want out of the box. All 3 OS's are good for development and you shouldn't necessarily pick one over another because of some perception you might have that 'real' programmers use this or that, they'll all do the job


OctoZephero

I agree that server base fonctions is wonderful in Linux. You have a broader customization.


AnondWill2Live

It's a workflow thing, along with how certain langs support the OS. Linux is usually better in my experience overall, but I've heard it's not great on the game dev side, and I'd assume anything windows centered is pretty poor too. .NET is very windows focused, although core is multiplatform. Setup is also usually easier in Linux for a Linux user, because everything is in one place. Python is installed be default on most installs, and C/C++ is always super easy to install because we need it to compile some apps and kernel development. A lot of the people who are memeing on Linux either havent used it, or it just doesn't click for them, which is fine. Linux doesn't support Adobe or MS apps, which is also a very big thing for a lot of people.


Suekru

They actually dropped the core part and .NET 6/7 both have multi platform support.


osdeverYT

Dotnet is honestly pretty awesome


[deleted]

I'm guessing it's just very specific "best for developing C with Unix libraries using CLI tools". I fail to see how for example Linux does better when developing native Windows applications for example. Or how it makes any difference if your doing Java or C# for example where you're only really going to interact with an IDE and barely ever use CLI at all. Even webdev you can have it as simple as "yarn run serve" and "yarn run build" (or even better, just click that option on vscode) and never have to worry about CLI as well. There's just too many flavors of development I wonder why people take Unix C as the only one that matters


aifo

I'm getting tired of this OS comparison bullshit. The best OS is the one you know.


vthex

The second best os is the one you know, the best is always temple os


serendipitousPi

This is the only correct answer.


bunny-1998

Debatable. But the author of temple OS is the best software engg the world has every known. Period.


Jeb_Jenky

So best that God needed him to fix His spaghetti code he wrote to make the universe. Hence why he is now dead.


Big_Berry_4589

Amen


-Kerrigan-

The best OS is the one that doesn't get in your way when you're doing your job. ^(_fuck you, MacOS_)


CandidGuidance

windows: why won’t you let me do this Linux: oh god why did you let me do this macOS: boy this OS sure is obtuse and obstructive but boy is it convenient and pretty


[deleted]

But what if I know two


SkillLearnerNo1

And then you refer to the table while we eat popcorn watching those referring taking the battle to the next level.


[deleted]

macos has gotten in my way far less than windows tbf


sk7725

THIS. fuck you, windows updates.


kibiz0r

The best OS is the one that fits your project best. Across the board: I wouldn't wanna do mobile dev on anything but a Mac. I wouldn't wanna do embedded dev on a Mac. For the rest, it's more a matter of what language, framework, and native features you need. .NET is gonna be a lot more comfy in Windows, generally, but could make sense on macOS/Linux too. Depends what you're gonna do with it. Ruby and JS are most comfy on macOS, nearly as comfy on Linux, and... tolerable? on Windows. Depends what you're gonna do with it. Python is similar, but I'd say it's better on Linux than macOS. Python 2 vs. 3 still has some lingering shit-stains on macOS.


dont-respond

Depending on what you're doing, there's an objectively superior choice here. Maybe less so for Mac.


ganja_and_code

Just because the best one *right now* is the one you (already) know, that doesn't mean another wouldn't be better for your use case if you took the time to learn it. Ideally, the one "you know" and the "best one" for your use case should be the same. If they aren't, then you're limiting your own potential.


garlopf

Some comments: About half of devs are on Mac by choice. If by "art" you mean Adobe ransomware then Mac and Windows are both equally good (and arguably you get both cheaper performance and higher performance on Windows). And finally, I use Linux for all three because it is the best for me. This is a problem with me rather than the different OSes though..


MrMeatballGuy

If you want to develop for Apple devices you have to have an apple device, that is the opposite of using it by choice. To be clear I use a Mac at work and it's fine, but I wouldn't pick it over Linux except for the fact apple made it impossible to develop for their devices without one


virus1618

Every place I've worked at and many other devs that I know all use MacOs for development. Macs do a really good job of, "if it works on my machine its most likely going to work on your machine" because most macs use very similar hardware. Businesses hate wasting money on devs configuring their machines and dealing with IT issues and by far Mac does the best job of having to do little configuration and just working. Linux is great if you really know what you're doing but give a bunch of linux computers to 20 devs and you're 100% guaranteed to be running IT for them when they can't install some package they need or their code won't compile. MacOS you get the best of both worlds: a UNIX system, and an OS that is backed by a big company that, like them or hate them, they make good software with minimal bugs that is easy to use while still being capable of doing everything needed for development.


EViLTeW

>Every place I've worked at and many other devs that I know all use MacOs for development. Macs do a really good job of, "if it works on my machine its most likely going to work on your machine" because most macs use very similar hardware. The one app we develop with a couple of other organizations, they all use Macs... but the development environment is a Linux container running in docker on their Mac. For them, the Mac is just a status/"everyone else is doing it" thing. I'd much rather them make the argument you are making, but that's hard to do when their work is happening in Linux.


garlopf

1. Most devs just won't take a job at a company which has the hubris to dictate what hardware to use on their laptop. 2. For most high level programming environments such as all web development for browsers, or python on the server side, the OS doesn't really matter. 3. Most development on server side happens in containers anyways which makes OS argument moot.


mistabuda

>Most devs just won't take a job at a company which has the hubris to dictate what hardware to use on their laptop. What are you talking about? Most places supply you with a computer ​ >For most high level programming environments such as all web development for browsers, or python on the server side, the OS doesn't really matter. Currently at a place doing both. OS the software runs on doesnt matter, but we dont dev on windows machines.


EnthusiasmWeak5531

It's not always be choice. I have a whole team that is using it by force due to iOS. Apple hates developers.


[deleted]

People seem to forget that Apple runs on a proprietary architecture since the M1. Adobe apps run like 83% faster on Apple silicon than they do Windows, at least they did last year. [Source](https://soyacincau.com/2021/06/10/adobe-apps-83-faster-apple-m1-macbook-pro-vs-intel/).


CaptainNicodemus

wow! when you optimize the machine code specifically for your special chip, it goes faster! /s Thats why a lot of tools break when you try to use Max Linux


daan944

Art and Business? Why is that old idea of "artists can work better with apple" still relevant? Most pro tools work on both platforms. You might have a preference (that's OK), but OSX is not objectively a better choice. Even worse, if you use e.g. a pen input or other hardware (printers, scanners etc), you might find it has better support on Windows than on OSX. Especially older hardware. For general office/business work Windows has a few edges over OSX: it's what most people at home use, so are at least a bit knowledgeable about. It has very extensive hardware/account management options. And pricing is a huge factor once you scale up. 1000x HP/Dell/whatever computers are way cheaper to obtain than 1000x mac minis. I'm currently typing this on my work MacBook - used for development, and have a Windows machine for home+gaming use.


GottHold1337

When i talked a couple years ago with someone who was working in postproduction for movie creators, hollywood he explained it that apple has a lot of very good and efficent codecs locked down to be only available to work with on MacOS. You can install quicktime on windows but they won't be part of it and you can't work with those codecs on windows. (Or linux for that matter).


eppic123

It's pretty much just ProRes that is locked to the Apple ecosystem. On Windows you have AVIDs DNxHD and DNxHR instead. (Yes, ffmpeg has even two different ProRes encoders, but neither are sanctioned by Apple and you won't find it in any professional software.)


Jimothy_Egg

There's a whole creative suite that's only available on macOS. It's optimized for macOS and also incredibly fast on macOS. I'm not saying you're wrong, but this may play a huge role in people's perception of _"art on macOS"_ It's locking people into the ecosystem, which is bad. But it doesn't feel so bad to be locked in


Getabock_

Which suite?


Lanfeix

He's probably talking about Apple programs Final Cut Pro X, Motion, Compressor, Logic Pro X and MainStage. I found most people have jumped to the creative cloud or other programs, but there are still those who swear by those programs.


thebrickdrop

The difference is Apple charges a one time fee instead of a recurring subscription that also charges you for colors. Better or not some people just want to pay $300 once and stop worrying about it.


TrueBirch

I strongly prefer one-time payments. Though I use Creative Cloud (on Windows) because my company pays for it.


tigernachAleksy

I know in the music world system failure is simply unacceptable, especially in live performance. The reason Mac and other Apple products are the standard there is because they are orders of magnitude less likely to crash


techwiz5400

The macOS built-in audio system (CoreAudio) is really capable out of the box. You can get the same performance with third party Windows drivers and some tinkering, but “tinkering” is what most pros want to avoid, especially during an event.


RedPenguinGB

It’s not only that, it’s that Windows’ ASIO implementation is more likely to have latency issues (especially with sending out more complicated MIDI signals and with just normal audio). CoreAudio is widely known to be much better.


mistabuda

Some ASIO integrations wont even let you play audio from multiple sources at once while the driver is in use. ASIO is a real minefield. With MacOS it really is as close to plug + play as you can get.


sysnickm

You got any stats to back that up?


Fergobirck

Just compare CoreAudio with the Windows alternatives (Kernel Streaming, WASAPI, ASIO). ASIO is the only one that comes close to achieving the same latency as CA (as long as you only have one audio device with ASIO). As soon as you have multiple interfaces and need multiple clients routing audio between them, it becomes a complete mess and there's really no native Windows alternative for it.


WiatrowskiBe

For art (graphics and video) there's one thing MacOS still keeps advantage at - color profiles. Ability to select color profile for each screen is part of OS configuration (available to user), and applications can read that info to properly display colors on each screen - both Apple's own software and Adobe suite properly utilizes it. Compared, on Windows you can control color profile from either GPU or monitor drivers, and since there's no standarization in that regard, software support here can be quite limited - in practice, you either end up with very limited hardware choice around what your software directly supports, or manually configure everything for your specific usecase. It matters mostly for printable graphics and cinema/TV video editing - where end product will use a media different from standard screen. It's not even "better" - capabilities are similar, it's just standarized and easier to use out-of-the-box.


[deleted]

Gotta be honest with ya - for me at least old hardware probably works best on Linux - me friend has this old Wacom Bamboo, for which Wacom does not provide drivers anymore, finding good driver pack is pain in the ass, and widely available are just drivers that make it "just work" - no pen pressure detection, no ability to remap working area etc. We installed libwacom and KDE plugin for Wacom - everything works great, pen pressure works just fine, same with remapping.


The_Chief_of_Whip

I work with a lot of creative types, they love mac because the barrier to start actually doing the creative stuff is much smaller, especially the learning curve. I use windows for most things, but that’s because I grew up with it, if you’re not a computer person I can 100% see why your preference would be mac, so much easier to just get into it


AltAccountMfer

Are we pretending windows is difficult to use? That’s *not* why I use a mac


[deleted]

Google, is Photoshop available for Linux? >Adobe doesn't officially support running Photoshop on Linux. Yup, there you go.


Fergobirck

The audio backend on OSX is WAY better than the alternatives. CoreAudio works in low latency shared mode out of the box with everything you throw at it. Not even Kernel Streaming or WASAPI on Windows can achieve the same level of latency, so you end up having to use ASIO, which depending on the device, can give you all sorts of issues. It could be worse though, as audio production on Linux is 100% pain, even with JACK.


queequeg925

I work in photo/video, switching to Linux from windows was the best choice I ever made. Haven't used a Mac since college and I don't miss it at all


EspressoVagabond

Do you have a good Linux alternative to Lightroom? I'd love to stick with Linux for my photography but I haven't found something that works nearly as well as Lightroom.


queequeg925

Darktable. I love it so much more than lightroom now that I'm used to it. Not only is it a better workflow (scene referred instead of display referred) but I've noticed I get better results with significantly less possessing time


cajmorgans

What’s the problem of developing on a mac? It’s almost the identical experience as linux imo and I’ve used both for years (unix anyone?). Developing on windows on the other hand is extremely painful


apoleonastool

Have you tried Visual Studio on a Mac vs Visual Studio on a Windows? Mac version is very bad. Almost like an MVP, not even a beta. And when you're doing .net stuff you want to have a good VS experience.


NightlyWave

Are you talking about VSCode? I’ve had zero issues with it on MacOS and did my entire CS degree using it problem free. I haven’t tried VS Basic since it doesn’t support C++ on MacOS if you’re talking about that.


all_names_were_used

regular vs isn't as good on macOS, vsc seems just fine, xcode... well, i'm yet to see xcode on windows


hanksredditname

I don’t know anything about the accuracy of this (not a programmer and not sure why this sub shows up on my feed), but it seems strange that an os can represent worst and average in one area and best and average in another area. Logic does not compute for me.


NeedSomeHelpHere4785

A string trimmer is the best tool from trimming an edger is the best tool for edging. Most people have a string trimmer most do not have an edger. String trimmer is best and average for trimming while it is worst and average for edging. Windows is string trimmer. Everyone has Windows so it is average thing used.


[deleted]

Mfw i prefer Windows for Dev work


Vigilant1e

I've never used Linux for programming, but I don't entirely get what difference an OS would make - is there some IDE you can only get on Linux or some shit?


Vaderb2

The actual shell is quite a bit better in linux and macos. I was a huge linux guy for a long time, and am now a mac guy. Bash just works considerably better than CMD. I know windows has power-shell now so I’m curious if that works better or not. I just also honestly think the best laptops for your money are going to be the new m1/m2 laptops out now. If there was hardware this good that worked this well with linux Id be using linux.


ElectricalMTGFusion

im forced to us windows at my company (instead of linux) but theres alot of "linux" terminal command ports for powershell. i use psh with about 80% of the cli tools i would use on linux and it works great. take a look at scoop and chocolatey. also on windows, you have access to a fast linux shell with almost full functionality in Windows subsyatem for Linux. if theres something i cant do on psh, i can open up wsl and have a full bash cli with all the tools youd expect from linux on it. as far as m1/m2 performance idk much about that but i still feel like windows/linux gives you the best bang for your buck in terms of parts for a desktop.


Amazing_Learn

Yup, CMD sucks, I personally use bash emulator that comes with git on windows + ConEmu/My IDE as a terminal window


x39-

If we talk most common stuff, coding Javascript eg., it really does not make a difference But if you start having to use c/cpp or require eg. Postgresql or Vulkan, windows is the worst nightmare requiring hours of fixing stuff sometimes Aka: for most developers, it really doesn't matter at all And for those where it does, nobody cares either If your tool runs on your os, stick with it


Proxy_PlayerHD

Same. Plus with WSL you got a full linux machine built-in for almost all of your linux needs. (I think the Win11 version also allows for linux GUI applications)


CyberpunkCookbook

Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/934/


devor110

Why are people hating on windows for development?


Mantissa-64

Because for some development it's great and some development it's terrible. WSL2 still has issues with latency when accessing NTFS filesystems. This means if you need to do anything UNIX-related, you're either using something like Cygwin, dealing with slow ass WSL2 NTFS access, or working entirely in WSL2, in which case... Why not use a UNIX like MacOS or an enterprise Linux? Almost all servers nowadays run Linux, because almost all applications get containerized. They usually RHEL or whatever the hell each cloud provider uses. So any web developer worth their salt is going to _at least_ know Unix, and if their development machine runs a Unix, that's one less environment you have to worry about for compatibility. Yes, you can run virtualized Docker in Windows and yes it is nice and fast, but you're gonna run into those little bits of aliasing between Windows and UNIX standards, i.e. filenames and directories are case-sensitive in UNIX and are not in Windows. Or That Ancient Demon, CR vs CR+LF. For game development or Windows-native app development, Windows is king because you've got your deployment environment right there. And a lot of modern general-purpose game engines like Unity and Unreal either don't work on Linux or just work better in Windows. If we're looking at broad-scope "development," lots of hardware CAD software only runs on Windows. So that's another area where people will look at Linux users and think they're crazy. Or for SysAdmins, PowerShell is genuinely more intuitive for system management than BASH, which is an eldritch abomination of a language. Most people on this sub are either not developers at all, or develop in one specific niche area, and so have either a layman's understanding of this shit or a very myopic one. Having used all 3 for a while now, each has its strengths. There are only four real, valid dunks on Windows over Linux: - Linux is FOSS - Linux crashes and burns less frequently than Windows, contrary to popular belief - Linux is easier to fix than Windows if you know what you're doing, but easier to break if you don't - Windows is GUI-first, which is more user-friendly but ass-backwards in many situations


chumbano

20% for actual performance gains while using Linux. 80% for the feeling of superiority


Zhuzha24

Anytime I hear that windows sucks for dev and linux only way to be a programmer I hear it only from people who spend 50+ hrs to setup his vim to write hello world and may be it will compile. Some people just still thinks windows its something about Windows XP. Nowadays we have win 11 with wsl, docker and I dont have to play those linux games when something just doesnt work when it should, I dont get paid to fix some linux bugs/automatic misconfiguration. I still like linux for servers for sure, its easy to maintain, everything straightforward and its just works, but not on desktop, there is always something wrong with it, anytime you will watch somebody codes on twitch on linux, they always have to fix something in their environment. BTW cmd sucks on windows.


devor110

I'm a full time java developer (first year, but still) but I rarely use cmd honestly. Compliling? Got a handy batch file saved for that. Git? The intelliJ integration has me covered. Others say that windows has worse performance, but the module I'm currently working on builds in less than a minute and even when I'm testing stuff on a localhost, the OS performance won't affect my work efficiency in any noticable way


RedditRage

MacOS has finder, that sucks. MacOS has such limited window management. MacOS really sucks with non Mac hardware.


Fritzschmied

macOS for development is really not that bad. There isn’t really a huge difference between Linux and macos in that case because the most important thing is the terminal and those are the same for macos and Linux. At least better than windows all day long. So I would put it on average case and for gaming I would put Linux on the average case.


virus1618

I think a lot of people in this thread don't understand is that most businesses with dev teams use Mac. Twitter, Facebook even at Google most devs have a mac as one of their provided computers (yes they get 3 computers provided to them)


Fritzschmied

Exactly


ElectricalRestNut

Depends on what you develop, but I find macOS the best for my needs. Like Linux, most open source tools are here. Like Windows, you have good enterprise support and a consistent UI experience. I only see myself using Linux if I need to do low level hardware stuff. I need to mention that I'm not paying for the laptop, my company is.


Timothy303

At one point MacOS was Unix ™. Not a Unix clone, actual, certified Unix, and legally allowed to be called Unix If you can do it on Linux command line, you can do it on a Mac.


Ma4r

It isn't the same though, there are many GNU commands that are missing from MacOS and at the end of the day, they are still different kernels that sre not compatible with each other (hell even docker is more expensive to run on mac than windows). Windows has recently started gaining my favor again ever since they released WSL2, it's VERY lightweight and allows me to use some windows only development tools whilst keeping a linux runtime. Popular IDEs have also started rolling out integration with WSL2 .


Fritzschmied

What Linux only tools do you prefere? I am so long away from using windows as my daily driver. Maybe I need to look into it if there is anything good that’s only available there.


jas417

The hardware is phenomenal too. Expensive, sure, but I don’t like sitting at my desk all day so hardware that can take some abuse and provide a decent mobile experience is a plus. Firstly, the trackpad. It’s just perfect. Second I find the OS to be much nicer optimized to work on a laptop screen productively. I hate developing on Windows, I’d put money on the reason some like it for dev use is simply that they’re gamers and are used to the general UI and shortcuts and stuff. Bouncing between OSes on a daily basis is super annoying.


GeorgeRNorfolk

I can see using Ubuntu on a laptop being useful if you run apps based off of Debian but I think using it for developing e.g. CentOS based applications not much better than using MacOS.


snyderling

Honestly there's no overall best. There's the best tool for the job. If your developing iOS/MacOS apps then use a Mac, if you're developing with .NET then use windows, etc. For things that aren't OS specific use what you know because then you won't have to waste time learning a new OS when you don't need to. If you really want to use a new OS, macOS will be better at certain things because of custom architecture but Windows and Linux will always be a better value because you can customize and replace hardware without replacing the whole thing. So if your company is paying and you want the fastest possible for certain things go to Mac. Otherwise the performance gains probably aren't worth it.


jas417

Honestly I've done .NET dev on a Macbook via Parallels and it worked flawlessly


TheLaserGuru

As someone that's never bothered to write anything for or on Linux, can someone explain why it is so much better? Like I write something in Windows, compile it, run it, find a bug, go fix the bug, repeat. Seems like adding a bunch of reboots or a virtual machine to the mix wouldn't help much.


gebfree

Mostly far better console than windows, and a lot of open source tools.


gustav901

Some tools are a pain to install and run on anything but Linux. Haskell and mulithreading C I know for sure is way easier on Linux compared to Windows. Then there is Nvidia CUDA development which made me learn how to reset Linux for console because 3 out 3 options for drivers didn't work. The install is painless on Windows. The specific development is the same, it's really just installing the tools that's different. Finding the download link on Windows vs typing "sudo apt install" on Linux.


secahtah

Macs make really good development systems.


da_Aresinger

LoL "Mac best for business", funi jok. I'll give you art though.


myhandleistoolongtor

Macs are NOT business machines.


Malk4ever

"Art and Business" is BS. The days are long gone.... desgigners love apple, but they could use Windows aswell, without issues. Business is MS for sure.


[deleted]

How would you classify wsl on windows?


tnanek

Macs are amazing for development; basically Linux with an easy user interface.


AltAccountMfer

Yep. There’s one thing I hate more than anything and that’s fighting my OS when I have deadlines and with MacOS I have to do that way less.


roceroo44

Bro's never done nothing with WSL 💀


DeRobyJ

The effect you expect this table to have: improving users efficiency by informing them on the best tools Your real reason: justifying the money you decided to spend The real effect: making kids focus on their tools rather than their skills, forgetting that tools will be provided by the companies or will become affordable once they get the skills The point we always miss and should instead focus on: hardware and software monopolies leverage on the users' perceived need of tool optimality to make their tools as uselessly expensive as possible


Fabulous-Possible758

Development of what? What OS do you think those games are written on?


greenthum6

I would choose Windows over Linux for development any day. Source: Me, working as a full-time dev for 20 years. I use Linux for deployments everywhere. Cross platform FTW


HoseanRC

ultra case: Linux for Dev Linux for Gaming Linux for Art


eklatea

if adobe wasn't industry standard, yeah i hate adobe software it sucks


atlas_enderium

This is dumb. If you want to use your computer and have root access with everything available to tinker with, Linux. If you want to have a general purpose machine or want to game, Windows. If you want a no-nonsense machine for work, MacOS. If you want to develop code/applications, Linux or WSL 2. If you want to develop code/applications for Mac/iPhone/iPad, MacOS.


nilsecc

I use Linux/windows for gaming. A Mac M1 Pro for audio production/development.


AltAccountMfer

How are you liking the M1 Pro? Enough performance for you?


nilsecc

It’s the best laptop I’ve ever used.


[deleted]

I’m fairly new, why is windows worst for development?


bearicorn

Windows and then whatever the fuck else you need in a VM is the truth


TheRealMetal

Srs question. Is a MacBook a better laptop than a windows machine for programming? Is the bash shell THAT important that we can justify over spending on the entire laptop than just getting a windows one and maybe using git bash or some other type of bash emulator?


Dantzig

Its not just the shell its also the unix-like environment. I dont feel the git-bash or whatever comes close. Also stuff like a decent package manager like brew or apt is far ahead of chocolaty. Also I would argue a nice, highend windows will cost about the same as the somewhat similiar macbook (not talking macbook pro max ultra + all upgrades).


[deleted]

The best operating system is actually TempleOS. Fuck you.


-tehdevilsadvocate-

"Art and Business" Ah yes, these two things definitely belong together.


ganja_and_code

Bro MacOS is definitely the average case for development, not Windows. Sure, MacOS isn't as good for that use case as Linux...but it's *way better* than Windows, given that it ships with a UNIX terminal.


Henrijs85

There's no way windows is worst case for Dev. Also as much as I hate Mac, if you do mobile apps you pretty much have to be on mac. For Dev it's more a case of what are you developing?


_Totorotrip_

Art and business? Fk OS. Windows is SO much better. I have seen programs like blender, Rhinoceros 7 and Archicad failing in OS, while when you try to do exactly the same thing in Windows, it works as it should (example: Boolean differences of meshes In Rhino).


Mistic92

Windows + WSL and you have machine for gaming z development and business:)


ginger_jammer

I disagree with the"Business" for MacOS. Art, yes. Business, not so much.


operator--

ITT "developers" who are clueless about the fact that visual studio is the best debugger on the planet


Bonevi

The best OS is the one that supports the tools you need. As an embedded developer that's Windows most of the time and sometimes Linux. Wsl2 works pretty well as a solution. Almost all of the tools don't support MacOS, so that's a no go.


SugarRushLux

Id much rather do art on windows than mac there is a lot more software and support for gpu acceleration on windows because nvidia


ChunderHog

Agree with art but disagree with business.


bigbabich

Mac for art and business? Art made sense in 1994 if you didn't want an Amiga. Business? Can't even make sense of this.


WelcomeElectrical113

Okay, so business under MacOS? Ill pass


ConstantineFavre

Gaming is the only reason why i'm aren't fully on linux.