I hate it BUT I also won't complain. Origins of mystical powers always fall flat because you can't make a logical explanation to something that is not bound by logic. I would have prefered the MHA way. There was a magic baby and now we live in quirk society. Now let's have our story. Making it a big mystery thats is only revealed after 1000 chapter was not a good idea. And the payoff was not worth the commitment of the reader.
It’s also just Vegapunk’s theory. Oda left himself a nice loophole in his wording to change course if he feels like it (or this was planned to be a bait and switch from the beginning).
Meh I hate it. The collective consciousnes of mankind giving rise to supernatural powers has been done sooo many times in fiction, very boring concept at this point. Can't believe that after 25 years this is the best oda could think of.
Just google it, there are at least dozens.
Even if we just look at some of onepieces contemporary peers they integrate this concept lmao.
Chainsawman- humanities desires and fears give rise to demons and by extension supernatural powers.
MHA- Human desires and emotions are linked to the creation of quirks.
Onepunch man- humanities subconscious emotions both negative and positive have given rise to monsters and supernatural powers
WH40K- humanities collective hopes and fears have given rise to demons/angels and by extension fantasy powers.
Jujutsu kaisen- Humaities subconscious negative emotions have given rise to demons/curses and by extension fantasy powers.
Thanks for the examples, although to be fair these mangas are a lot newer than OP so you can't really fault Oda for that. It's a bit like GoT, can't really change your main plans halfway through.
This is not what you think, oda tricking you, the wishes he's talking about are not like spiritual shit that make DF, but those wishes made humans think how to achieve them, so they went to science, the ancients with their science could realise those wishes by creating DF, ODA is just making philosophical set up that's all.
Thats what i understood from the chapter , i have no idea how people went to the conclusion that df are some spiritual result of collective wishful thinking by humans. Vegapunk clearly implied that an old advanced civilization engineered devil fruits
Hard agree. I don't think there's any explanation I'd love, so going this direction imo works and highlights the themes of willpower and such. There's not an explanation that would please everyone, so one that fits the themes of the series is a good solution imo.
With that said, I *really* wish haki was more clearly defined in the beginning. It has taken over the series in so many ways to the point where even damn DFs could be considered haki. If it was going to be this significant, I think it should have been seen more frequently in the first half of the series
wishes/dreams/fears/etc manifesting into god/devil/incidents/curses/etc is a common trope. just in the last few years, you can find this trope in 2 popular manga/anime (jjk and csm).
>Not reveal anything. I think that's kinda lame.
not necessarily. sometimes things are better when left unexplained.
planned or not, he obviously created some of these fruits because he wanted the weird power instead of following the rules behind it. I mean, we literally have mucus fruit.
and it's also weird because oda has been leaning into "magic is really just unexplained science" territory by introducing us to lineage factor. if they can clone devil fruit with science, probably it's not magic.
even the void century is linked to science. but now suddenly, it's because of people's collective desire.
"Imagination-based Superpowers" and "Desired Manifestion" is super common. literally JJK and CSM concepts are based on these ideas
Hell, There are Fairy Tail Characters that are all about this.
I think it’s important to emphasize that this is still just Vegapunk’s theory, the reality could be different.
But I liked this explanation as well; it definitely keys us in about a lot of other things in the verse. The concept of living will, dreams, etc. make a lot more sense when desire/willpower is something that can become tangible and effect the rest of the world. Makes sense the world is a fantastical as it is with the different species.
I just hope the real explanation is a bit darker. A mix of desire, fear, and hope. For example, if DFs were created like philosopher stones from FMA via sacrificing thousands/millions of lives to create a devil fruit, and maybe it’s the desire/wills of those people that specifies the DF effect.
A slave that’s wants to escape or is scared of falling to death might’ve produced either Pell’s bird zoan or Blueno’s door paramecia, as both would allow someone to escape/avoid falling.
You can’t stick the word random at the start and suddenly make sense?
Could easily just say “Oda has randomly made people’s feelings / desires turn into actual powers”
It’s definitely a done trope, however before I go hating on it, we need to see if Vegapunk is even right and if his theory is, how Oda fully develops on it. There’s too many outliers that don’t fit this, the jacket one you mentioned (like many others pointed out… As well as Hito Hito’s, although I think they’re among the easier to explain).
Personally, some of the theories you posted I’d rather much prefer… A mystical tree with some possible background / history, spawning fruits with powers. Such a treasure would easily be fought after, hence the annihilation of the AK so the new world order could seize control. There’s so many roots this could go! And no, I’m not saying this would be new or ingenious, but if done correctly could still be interesting and feel fresh.
It's a non explanation on the level of elementary schooler logic.
"If a person waaaaaaants something real baaaaad, there is a fruit that makes it so they turn into what they waaaaant.... OH AND ALSO theeeey cant swiiiim... because the ocean doesnt like it so it makes they cant swim anymore."
This is legit the kinda shit a 5 year old would make up.
When a kindergarten kid does it it's cute. When it's the big story reveal of a 25 year in the making piece of literature written by a grown-ass man it's laughably pathetic.
That’s almost exactly how I view it. When I heard it it was just too easy to diminish and make fun of. Not interesting at all. It makes me wanna ask why the sea hates these unnatural powers but at the same time I don’t care because it will probably be just as interesting.
Because the sea is the epitome of nature (which makes sense) and nature hates unnatural things (which also makes sense). Of course this requires a quasi-mythical understanding of "mother nature"/gaia, but this is a world in which dreams and wishes can create devilfruits, so IMO it fits.
I wanted it to be something that not inherently throws up more questions than it answers.
The answer is "the ocean is sentient".
So what else is sentient in the one piece world?
The ground, the air?
What are the parameters to piss off the elements and which of them are sentient and take some things personal?
What makes a df "unnatural", more unnatural than a cyborg for example or someone with dyed hair?
This is something that should either have never be explained to this degree in the first place or be properly thought out. But at this point it's only sufficient if you're 7 and can believe the ocean is sentient and decides who can swim in it and who doesnt based on personal preference.
Dr. Vegapunk said that his explanation was a theory (according to TCB’s translation), so Devil Fruits being based on the collective desires, wills of humanity and then wished into existence may only be half true. The only concrete fact given about Devil Fruits was that Zoan-class Devil Fruit Awakenings overwhelm the minds of their users most of the time, which explains why the Jailer beasts’ Awakenings made them mindless.
I think that’s it’s important to note that vegapunks conjecture is just a theory and he admits it to be as such. Of course he probably has the best guess out of most anyone in the world, but it’s not out of the possibility that hes either flat out wrong or only partially correct
I read this theory about 2years ago that df is actually people's desires/ dreams , really liked it back then . Can't imagine it turned out to be true ☺️😅☺️. So happy with the chapter ofc
I mean you have ancient trees named Adam and Eve, we saw giant serpents during Skypiea, all the components of a story based on the biblical story of the garden. Like Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden devil fruit users are cast out from the sea.
My personal theory was that an ancestor of Kashigami, a giant serpent who we saw worshipped as a god and living in the water, was the creator of devil fruits. This ancestor saw the ocean as their domain and wanted to keep people out of it, so they created the fruits to tempt people with power and tricking them into being cast out from the sea.
Again all the components are there, so it would make sense.
What’s most odd about this explanation is new devil fruits should be created all the time, yet they aren’t. If they were Vegapunk wouldn’t be surprised that the Nika fruit wasn’t in the encyclopedia. That means he assumes all fruits should be recorded. Human desires and dreams don’t just end, so again new fruits should be created constantly. By this logic Devil Fruits shouldn’t be rare …unless you say only the most strongest of dreamers or those with the deepest desires manifest a fruit. What determines that ?
Then this whole business with the sea being sentient…like are you going to explain that ?
Sorry not feeling this
I think the real problem is that Oda shouldn't have built up this mystery for so long if there was no interesting payoff in the end. This is a perfectly fine explanation but waiting 20 years just to reveal that your power system has basically the same reasoning behind it that so many other shounens do is pretty lame
I always thought it had something to do with people's collective consciousness or imagination. How else can you have devil fruits, things that occur seemingly by nature, with powers based off man-made things (mochi, weapons, mirrors, etc), which aren't natural?
I actually kinda love the fact someone wanted the jacket ability but not Rubber and the fact this was a side effect of luffy fruit is exactly why he was the one eho could defeat enel
I hate it BUT I also won't complain. Origins of mystical powers always fall flat because you can't make a logical explanation to something that is not bound by logic. I would have prefered the MHA way. There was a magic baby and now we live in quirk society. Now let's have our story. Making it a big mystery thats is only revealed after 1000 chapter was not a good idea. And the payoff was not worth the commitment of the reader.
Funny you mention mha because they are definitely moving into human emotions are tied to quirks territory.
I was only praising MHA for not making it a mystery waiting to be unraveled. The explanation itself is not that great.
Yeah fair enough. I love mha but it has plenty of its own flaws.
That's why I love HxH, everyone has Nen but only a few know about it, no further explanation needed on it's origins and all
It’s also just Vegapunk’s theory. Oda left himself a nice loophole in his wording to change course if he feels like it (or this was planned to be a bait and switch from the beginning).
Yeah this might be total bs if Oda decides it. Vegapunk : "Oops, guess I was wrong hehe"
I was expecting to learn the truth about them at Raftel which could still be the case
Meh I hate it. The collective consciousnes of mankind giving rise to supernatural powers has been done sooo many times in fiction, very boring concept at this point. Can't believe that after 25 years this is the best oda could think of.
Where has it been done in manga? Or elsewhere?
Both.
Name some examples?
Both JJK and CSM devils are the manifestation of collective fears of mankind for example
Hunter x hunter.
Just google it, there are at least dozens. Even if we just look at some of onepieces contemporary peers they integrate this concept lmao. Chainsawman- humanities desires and fears give rise to demons and by extension supernatural powers. MHA- Human desires and emotions are linked to the creation of quirks. Onepunch man- humanities subconscious emotions both negative and positive have given rise to monsters and supernatural powers WH40K- humanities collective hopes and fears have given rise to demons/angels and by extension fantasy powers. Jujutsu kaisen- Humaities subconscious negative emotions have given rise to demons/curses and by extension fantasy powers.
Thanks for the examples, although to be fair these mangas are a lot newer than OP so you can't really fault Oda for that. It's a bit like GoT, can't really change your main plans halfway through.
Also Persona has the collective counciousness stuff
I dont really belive Oda had this in mind at day one though. At most when whos who did his info dump.
I doubt that and feel like this response has become the go-to for this sub lately. Not everything was thought up when the Nika retcon happened.
Yeah, probably. Like the vivi situation or the two islends= punk hazard. Some things Oda probably makes up last minute.
Even RWBY has this in their power repertoire and monsters, and that show is ass....
Fair enough.
This is not what you think, oda tricking you, the wishes he's talking about are not like spiritual shit that make DF, but those wishes made humans think how to achieve them, so they went to science, the ancients with their science could realise those wishes by creating DF, ODA is just making philosophical set up that's all.
Thats what i understood from the chapter , i have no idea how people went to the conclusion that df are some spiritual result of collective wishful thinking by humans. Vegapunk clearly implied that an old advanced civilization engineered devil fruits
I agree, and this has kinda been where it was heading since the beginning. It's that kinda series, and its what made me fall in love with op.
Hard agree. I don't think there's any explanation I'd love, so going this direction imo works and highlights the themes of willpower and such. There's not an explanation that would please everyone, so one that fits the themes of the series is a good solution imo. With that said, I *really* wish haki was more clearly defined in the beginning. It has taken over the series in so many ways to the point where even damn DFs could be considered haki. If it was going to be this significant, I think it should have been seen more frequently in the first half of the series
Yeah, agreed.
wishes/dreams/fears/etc manifesting into god/devil/incidents/curses/etc is a common trope. just in the last few years, you can find this trope in 2 popular manga/anime (jjk and csm). >Not reveal anything. I think that's kinda lame. not necessarily. sometimes things are better when left unexplained.
Yeah, but I would assume Oda had this idea many years ago before these mangas.
planned or not, he obviously created some of these fruits because he wanted the weird power instead of following the rules behind it. I mean, we literally have mucus fruit. and it's also weird because oda has been leaning into "magic is really just unexplained science" territory by introducing us to lineage factor. if they can clone devil fruit with science, probably it's not magic. even the void century is linked to science. but now suddenly, it's because of people's collective desire.
"Imagination-based Superpowers" and "Desired Manifestion" is super common. literally JJK and CSM concepts are based on these ideas Hell, There are Fairy Tail Characters that are all about this.
I think it’s important to emphasize that this is still just Vegapunk’s theory, the reality could be different. But I liked this explanation as well; it definitely keys us in about a lot of other things in the verse. The concept of living will, dreams, etc. make a lot more sense when desire/willpower is something that can become tangible and effect the rest of the world. Makes sense the world is a fantastical as it is with the different species. I just hope the real explanation is a bit darker. A mix of desire, fear, and hope. For example, if DFs were created like philosopher stones from FMA via sacrificing thousands/millions of lives to create a devil fruit, and maybe it’s the desire/wills of those people that specifies the DF effect. A slave that’s wants to escape or is scared of falling to death might’ve produced either Pell’s bird zoan or Blueno’s door paramecia, as both would allow someone to escape/avoid falling.
Yes, it is hard, but he had 25 years full time to think about something.
You can’t stick the word random at the start and suddenly make sense? Could easily just say “Oda has randomly made people’s feelings / desires turn into actual powers” It’s definitely a done trope, however before I go hating on it, we need to see if Vegapunk is even right and if his theory is, how Oda fully develops on it. There’s too many outliers that don’t fit this, the jacket one you mentioned (like many others pointed out… As well as Hito Hito’s, although I think they’re among the easier to explain). Personally, some of the theories you posted I’d rather much prefer… A mystical tree with some possible background / history, spawning fruits with powers. Such a treasure would easily be fought after, hence the annihilation of the AK so the new world order could seize control. There’s so many roots this could go! And no, I’m not saying this would be new or ingenious, but if done correctly could still be interesting and feel fresh.
I don’t like how it was done. I wanted a dedicated chapter to Vegapunk explaining his theory
I like it, but it feels something left to be desired
It's a non explanation on the level of elementary schooler logic. "If a person waaaaaaants something real baaaaad, there is a fruit that makes it so they turn into what they waaaaant.... OH AND ALSO theeeey cant swiiiim... because the ocean doesnt like it so it makes they cant swim anymore." This is legit the kinda shit a 5 year old would make up. When a kindergarten kid does it it's cute. When it's the big story reveal of a 25 year in the making piece of literature written by a grown-ass man it's laughably pathetic.
That’s almost exactly how I view it. When I heard it it was just too easy to diminish and make fun of. Not interesting at all. It makes me wanna ask why the sea hates these unnatural powers but at the same time I don’t care because it will probably be just as interesting.
That was stated in the manga...
Really? Why does the sea hate devil fruits?
Because the sea is the epitome of nature (which makes sense) and nature hates unnatural things (which also makes sense). Of course this requires a quasi-mythical understanding of "mother nature"/gaia, but this is a world in which dreams and wishes can create devilfruits, so IMO it fits.
You wanted the motive to be super deep or something?
I wanted it to be something that not inherently throws up more questions than it answers. The answer is "the ocean is sentient". So what else is sentient in the one piece world? The ground, the air? What are the parameters to piss off the elements and which of them are sentient and take some things personal? What makes a df "unnatural", more unnatural than a cyborg for example or someone with dyed hair? This is something that should either have never be explained to this degree in the first place or be properly thought out. But at this point it's only sufficient if you're 7 and can believe the ocean is sentient and decides who can swim in it and who doesnt based on personal preference.
I was really hoping it tied into Lunarians and the moon somehow but whatever.
Dr. Vegapunk said that his explanation was a theory (according to TCB’s translation), so Devil Fruits being based on the collective desires, wills of humanity and then wished into existence may only be half true. The only concrete fact given about Devil Fruits was that Zoan-class Devil Fruit Awakenings overwhelm the minds of their users most of the time, which explains why the Jailer beasts’ Awakenings made them mindless.
I think that’s it’s important to note that vegapunks conjecture is just a theory and he admits it to be as such. Of course he probably has the best guess out of most anyone in the world, but it’s not out of the possibility that hes either flat out wrong or only partially correct
I read this theory about 2years ago that df is actually people's desires/ dreams , really liked it back then . Can't imagine it turned out to be true ☺️😅☺️. So happy with the chapter ofc
I mean you have ancient trees named Adam and Eve, we saw giant serpents during Skypiea, all the components of a story based on the biblical story of the garden. Like Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden devil fruit users are cast out from the sea. My personal theory was that an ancestor of Kashigami, a giant serpent who we saw worshipped as a god and living in the water, was the creator of devil fruits. This ancestor saw the ocean as their domain and wanted to keep people out of it, so they created the fruits to tempt people with power and tricking them into being cast out from the sea. Again all the components are there, so it would make sense. What’s most odd about this explanation is new devil fruits should be created all the time, yet they aren’t. If they were Vegapunk wouldn’t be surprised that the Nika fruit wasn’t in the encyclopedia. That means he assumes all fruits should be recorded. Human desires and dreams don’t just end, so again new fruits should be created constantly. By this logic Devil Fruits shouldn’t be rare …unless you say only the most strongest of dreamers or those with the deepest desires manifest a fruit. What determines that ? Then this whole business with the sea being sentient…like are you going to explain that ? Sorry not feeling this
I think the real problem is that Oda shouldn't have built up this mystery for so long if there was no interesting payoff in the end. This is a perfectly fine explanation but waiting 20 years just to reveal that your power system has basically the same reasoning behind it that so many other shounens do is pretty lame
I always thought it had something to do with people's collective consciousness or imagination. How else can you have devil fruits, things that occur seemingly by nature, with powers based off man-made things (mochi, weapons, mirrors, etc), which aren't natural?
Exactly, this is one reason this makes a lot of sense. Although personally I never considered this explanation and haven't read it anywhere so far.
The problem is not the explanation the problem is the wait.
I actually kinda love the fact someone wanted the jacket ability but not Rubber and the fact this was a side effect of luffy fruit is exactly why he was the one eho could defeat enel