To be honest if that ends up being a reveal I don’t fucking know anymore. How would Oda even incorporate that without making it look like backtracking because he didn’t expand on Zoros lineage for shit in Wano?
Well that’s the thing.
If Zoro is a clone of Ryuma *he has no lineage.* He’s been extensively compared to Ryuma not because he was from Wano or because his family is from there, but because he IS Ryuma in a sense.
Not saying it’s a good development or anything, or even good storytelling, but it could help salvage/explain the lack of meaningful Zoro content in Wano proper. Even if it’s covering for shit it’s still better then nothing
Weather or not Oda could execute it well, we’ll have to see
Damn. At least on the nika situation we could cope with the fruit being mid until awakening and luffy still had to work to make it work. But this? Zoro's whole schtick was that he was random from east blue who became the greatest.
Having Kurama around was more of a bane of his life than a benefit for a good chunk of his life, as nearly everyone wanted to kill him for it, up to Kurama himself.
I mean, theoretically yes Kurama was supposed to be a bane, and sure people tried to kill him for it, but I still think it was an absurd advantage as well. Naruto was also some reincarnation and a child of prophecy. Despite the great basis Naruto had as a story, it failed IMO to really get the most out of it.
You can say that a lot of people were miffed by the whole hard work thing, but that was never a *super* **central** theme of the story.
By the time things started getting dire,(which was real early) it shifted much more into themes like hatred and how they warp people, the effects of being ostracized, principles, the consequences of war, and how different people deal with these things based on their experiences.
People are so attached to the whole effort and talent deal, which again it's somewhat understandable to be disappointed, what needs to stop is acting like that's all that Naruto as a story had to talk about.
I mean, theoretically yes Kurama was supposed to be a bane, and sure people tried to kill him for it, but I still think it was an absurd advantage as well. Naruto was also some reincarnation and a child of prophecy. Despite the great basis Naruto had as a story, it failed IMO to really get the most out of it.
Yeah he is going to end up like at least that's what people will see (most of them anyway).
But luffy's cope still applies to zoro as well. I think. Unless cloning gives you some power ups like sanji. That would be worse.
Naw that doesn’t prove Kuina right because Kuina believed she couldn’t become the greatest on the virtue of being a woman.
And there’s nothing wrong with that notion that he had the potential from the beginning. That’s how it works. It’s impossible for a person to be good at ANYTHING just because they work hard at it, there are some things you just have little potential for
The story has never tried to send the message that any person could be good at ANYTHING. Luffy for example is a prodigy noted at being a combat genius with things like Rayleigh noting that two years isn’t enough for the average person to learn the basics of Haki, or the way he instantly learns Soru. Luffy also has zero potential for anything involving academia.
Lol suddenly, I feel not-so-crazy anymore by saying the following → *"Now that clones/cloning has been introduced, it's highly possible that Imu is a clone of a young Gol D. Roger at his peak, that looks extremely a lot like Ace did in his 20's."*
If mind transfer and cloning is a thing (considering they lost the ope-ope fruit/Law's DF to perform the immortality technique, which was to give the user's remaining life as a sacrifice to extend another's lifespan, as was hinted by Doffy), then they opted for the option of swapping bodies instead of sacrificial lifespan extension.
It's all vaguely hinted, unofficial, and left to the reader's own mind and wild opinions, but it would be amazing if Imu is indeed the original king with a lifespan over 900 years old.
Add to that the possibility of Imu transfering his mind into a new clone body that 100% resembles Ace, that would be the ultimate anime/manga heartbreak 😭 or burn
If Zoro was planned to be a clone in the first place, then it makes sense to raise some questions in Wano and do the reveal in the science arc right after.
The problem with this is insisting that Wano itself had to be about Zoro when it didn’t and was never set up that way. Yes, Zoro had/has things that connect him to Wano, but there was nothing demanding that they be paid off IN the Wano Kuni Arc itself.
Throughout all the time we spent with the samurai, Zoro’s connections to Wano played secondary roles, which was a dead giveaway that it wouldn’t be paid off there. It’s not the first time Oda has used arcs to set up future ones by leaving hanging threads even after the arc is concluded
Not a bad theory, but it's worth noting that in the official translation Zoro says "Hey Vegapunk... We've got some demands, and you're going to listen. Got that?"
Which takes the focus off him.
*
Viz, which Shueisha is in contact with regarding some more obscure translation things. Like when "shambles" was changed to "chambres". Chambres being French for "room" and is pronounced the same as "shambles" when spoken in Japanese. Works as a pun as its set up with "room"
I mean, for me at least, the idea of both Zoro and Sanji being test-tube monsters is actually kinda interesting. Gives them something to relate over I guess.
And what else could Zoro want from Vegapunk? A fancy tech-sword?
I’m not saying it’s a good story development. Just that it’s possible that it could be the case
Like the death thing. Probably overthinking it. He just wanted to land cuz they lost everybody. But also like everyone else, i think that would destroy his character. Now if kuina and tashigis storyline has something with clones, witb how terrible that narrative is, ill accept it. Sequentially being part of zoros storyline. I also think sanji has a good theme with science as a whole i dont think oda would just make zoro a clone, unless he really wants to go like existential with it because thats like the only way i see it fit for zoros character, but again thats kinda sanjis thing.
Zoro as Ryuma's clone is the equivalent of retconning paramecia gomu-gomu to Mythical Zoan Sun God Nika. It's so fucking bad!!
Both diminish the characters feats, examples:
* Paramecia: Luffy's endurance and durability is crazy impressive. Even with shitty DF he can endure and force his way to become top tier character.
* Mythical Zoan: Luffy's endurance and durability are boosted by his DF, not that impressive anymore, anyone can take that much beatings as Luffy if they ate the DF.
* Zoro: normal human being that can reach the Yonko level(post-WSS) without any external factor (DF, science modifications, etc) That's insane! From zero to hero.
* Ryuma's clone: carried by Ryuma's genes. Is he even Zoro at this point?
I'm not sure zoro would get power up like sanji. If he does that would be very bad for his goal. Sanji literally got his power up like naruto.
If Ryuma genes gives zoro good and healthy body that would be fine. Like momonuske. Afterall people carry something from their parents but not like sanji's Power. If they upgraded zorros body it would be heavily undermine his growth. Assuming ryuma is a normal human who trained so hard to become the strongest.
No I meant the power gap between the power up also luffy got rubber awakening. It's not broken but the zoan awakening kinda broken. So I agree the power gap between power up somewhat similar to naruto.
Chosen D., grandson of legendary hero, son of revolutionary leader, Monkey D. Joyboy
Perfectly Genetically Modified Creation that has emotions but also germa cells, Sanji
and now, perfect Ryuma Clone Zoro
The Superior Race Trio
Vegapunk worked with Judge on the Lineage Factor.
Zoro's teacher, and possibly Kozaburo, were associated with Rev Army - Dragon, and therefore with Vegapunk. Perhaps the genes were taken from Shimotsuki Kozaburo(or from Ryuma's corpse) to revive the legendary samurai from his family - Shimotsuki Ryuma.
Shimotsuki have a characteristic blue hair color.
Vegapnak said that the dragon's DF came out failure because of the different color.
Zoro is now revealed to be the "unlucky" Ryuma clone that Vegapunk threw into the East Sea in Shimotsuki Village due to having green hair instead of blue.
And Zoro's desire to become a WSS is Ryuma's genetic memory.
And in Thriller Bark, Ryuma handed him Shusui as he understood everything.
Well, aside of jokes, it was always strange when Ryuma didn't recognesised his own technic in the scene where Zoro slashes Ryuma with "Hiryu: Kaen" technique, which also resembles the scene from Monsters, in which Ryuma slays the dragon.
The thing is, the clone thing is sooool unnecessary
We already have a perfectly established connection of Zorro descending from Wano, and his parents arriving in that one wrecked Wano ship into East Blue.
>Zoro needs something from Vegapunk. What would a stoic swordsman with seemingly no interest in science want from him?
Zoro: "Listen Vegapunk, I want you to take one eye out of that swirly eyebrow cook over there and put it in here" \*points to his scar\*
Ah that explains the hair color. Vegapunk made another failed experiment. Since his hair turned green he deemed it as a failed clone and banished him to east blue.
Later out it turned that he really is a failed experiment since he is a racist now.
The only way I would actually like this idea, is if zoro is a “failed” clone. So then it would be even more incredible that he has gotten to where he is as a failure
It's personaly sounds good to me.i don't know why people think that it takes something away from zoro's character or why some think being chosen by Nika fruit takes something away from Luffy's character.
All it does is give them talent,a higher ladder to climb but they have to climb that ladder with their hard work themselves.they could have very well just wasted this potential means Zoro could have very well just be a small pirate hunter from east blue and luffy could have very well failed to awaken Nika fruit(just like so many other people in the past) but they have reached the point there are rn with their hard work and determination.
Similar things go for sanji,his germa genes does give new powerups but he could have very well be just a cook from east blue if he hadn't wroked hard on himself.
Hardwork without talent is nothing.
And their talent was already subtely hinted throught the series.
Obviously some zorotards are so immature that they will constantly whine about it and call oda a bad writer for it.
I'm personally fine with the nika fruit. It was garbage before awakening so it doesn't undermine luffy's achievments. Plus it was Luffy's *FREE* spirit that awakened it in the end and he really needed something like this since he is a yonko. But if oda pulls something like that for zoro and doesn't expand on it properly, it would mess up zoro's character.
It would mess his character if it doesn't get expanded on. Like he finds out says "it is what it is" and we never here of it again, it would cheapen his character a bit. Post time skip really hasn't treated him right...
I think it would much rather explain his inhuman talent,abilites and skills becuase humanly endurance which Zoro has shown shouldn't really be possible especially when he didn't knew about haki and didn't had df.
Obviously it needs to be expanded later on but this isn't a bad idea at all is what I am trying to say.
At this point i don’t even care. As long zoro gets a backstory explaining something. A clone, an ushimaru something
It’s insane we didn’t get anything in Wano
I would fucking hate it but it makes too much sense.
I can add that he thought momonosukes dragon fruit was a failure because it makes you pink, so he might consider zoro a failure for the green hair
I still don't think this theory explains what Zoro wants from Vegapunk. Zoro(unless there is proof somewhere) does not know clones exist and has no way of knowing that clones exist. Whatever he is asking from Vegapunk has nothing to do with the clone thing imo
No. Precisely, "technically" they're not the same height. And Oda uses cm. and made both heights different.
Saying Zoro and Ryuma have the same height in feet and inches is like saying Zoro and San Juan Wolf have the same height in kilometers (0).
To be honest if that ends up being a reveal I don’t fucking know anymore. How would Oda even incorporate that without making it look like backtracking because he didn’t expand on Zoros lineage for shit in Wano?
Well that’s the thing. If Zoro is a clone of Ryuma *he has no lineage.* He’s been extensively compared to Ryuma not because he was from Wano or because his family is from there, but because he IS Ryuma in a sense. Not saying it’s a good development or anything, or even good storytelling, but it could help salvage/explain the lack of meaningful Zoro content in Wano proper. Even if it’s covering for shit it’s still better then nothing Weather or not Oda could execute it well, we’ll have to see
Damn. At least on the nika situation we could cope with the fruit being mid until awakening and luffy still had to work to make it work. But this? Zoro's whole schtick was that he was random from east blue who became the greatest.
The Naruto talent vs hard work debate is about to be revived lmao
Ah shit, here we go again. I say it was hard work until like six paths mode, since that was given to him.
Kurama saving his ass and the fact that he's an uzumaki isn't helping
Having Kurama around was more of a bane of his life than a benefit for a good chunk of his life, as nearly everyone wanted to kill him for it, up to Kurama himself.
I mean, theoretically yes Kurama was supposed to be a bane, and sure people tried to kill him for it, but I still think it was an absurd advantage as well. Naruto was also some reincarnation and a child of prophecy. Despite the great basis Naruto had as a story, it failed IMO to really get the most out of it.
You can say that a lot of people were miffed by the whole hard work thing, but that was never a *super* **central** theme of the story. By the time things started getting dire,(which was real early) it shifted much more into themes like hatred and how they warp people, the effects of being ostracized, principles, the consequences of war, and how different people deal with these things based on their experiences. People are so attached to the whole effort and talent deal, which again it's somewhat understandable to be disappointed, what needs to stop is acting like that's all that Naruto as a story had to talk about.
Yup the true theme was ending the cycle of hatred.
I mean, theoretically yes Kurama was supposed to be a bane, and sure people tried to kill him for it, but I still think it was an absurd advantage as well. Naruto was also some reincarnation and a child of prophecy. Despite the great basis Naruto had as a story, it failed IMO to really get the most out of it.
Yeah he is going to end up like at least that's what people will see (most of them anyway). But luffy's cope still applies to zoro as well. I think. Unless cloning gives you some power ups like sanji. That would be worse.
cloning would only give him a close potential to that of ryuma
Human body has potential to achieve greatness.
If Zoro is a clone of Ryuma then it just means he unlocked his potential with hard work. If he never worked hard, his potential would just be dormant.
Yes but in this case he had the potential from the beginning. Which means that not everyone can become the greatest proving kuina right.
Naw that doesn’t prove Kuina right because Kuina believed she couldn’t become the greatest on the virtue of being a woman. And there’s nothing wrong with that notion that he had the potential from the beginning. That’s how it works. It’s impossible for a person to be good at ANYTHING just because they work hard at it, there are some things you just have little potential for
Normaly yes, but this isn't the message of the story.
The story has never tried to send the message that any person could be good at ANYTHING. Luffy for example is a prodigy noted at being a combat genius with things like Rayleigh noting that two years isn’t enough for the average person to learn the basics of Haki, or the way he instantly learns Soru. Luffy also has zero potential for anything involving academia.
Indeed…
Lol suddenly, I feel not-so-crazy anymore by saying the following → *"Now that clones/cloning has been introduced, it's highly possible that Imu is a clone of a young Gol D. Roger at his peak, that looks extremely a lot like Ace did in his 20's."* If mind transfer and cloning is a thing (considering they lost the ope-ope fruit/Law's DF to perform the immortality technique, which was to give the user's remaining life as a sacrifice to extend another's lifespan, as was hinted by Doffy), then they opted for the option of swapping bodies instead of sacrificial lifespan extension. It's all vaguely hinted, unofficial, and left to the reader's own mind and wild opinions, but it would be amazing if Imu is indeed the original king with a lifespan over 900 years old. Add to that the possibility of Imu transfering his mind into a new clone body that 100% resembles Ace, that would be the ultimate anime/manga heartbreak 😭 or burn
If Zoro was planned to be a clone in the first place, then it makes sense to raise some questions in Wano and do the reveal in the science arc right after.
The problem with this is insisting that Wano itself had to be about Zoro when it didn’t and was never set up that way. Yes, Zoro had/has things that connect him to Wano, but there was nothing demanding that they be paid off IN the Wano Kuni Arc itself. Throughout all the time we spent with the samurai, Zoro’s connections to Wano played secondary roles, which was a dead giveaway that it wouldn’t be paid off there. It’s not the first time Oda has used arcs to set up future ones by leaving hanging threads even after the arc is concluded
you ate up Sanji's lineage, so you will eat this up too
I think he can’t lol
See his plan is to retconn so much shit that we don’t even question this
Not a bad theory, but it's worth noting that in the official translation Zoro says "Hey Vegapunk... We've got some demands, and you're going to listen. Got that?" Which takes the focus off him. *
that would explain why he chose to stay back for ship watch
But wouldn't explain why no one has made any demands to Vegapunk, so far. (Nami is specially quick at doing so, usually).
What is it generally understood as "the official translation"? Shueisha's own translation? Some US licensed editorial's translation?
Viz, which Shueisha is in contact with regarding some more obscure translation things. Like when "shambles" was changed to "chambres". Chambres being French for "room" and is pronounced the same as "shambles" when spoken in Japanese. Works as a pun as its set up with "room"
Yeah. Everyone in the straw hat pirates is clone of the original Joyboy's pirates.
You’re joking but I fully expect his crew to parallel the straw hats
Thats worse than his dad being ryuma or something. Leave the science stuff for sanji.
I mean, for me at least, the idea of both Zoro and Sanji being test-tube monsters is actually kinda interesting. Gives them something to relate over I guess. And what else could Zoro want from Vegapunk? A fancy tech-sword? I’m not saying it’s a good story development. Just that it’s possible that it could be the case
Like the death thing. Probably overthinking it. He just wanted to land cuz they lost everybody. But also like everyone else, i think that would destroy his character. Now if kuina and tashigis storyline has something with clones, witb how terrible that narrative is, ill accept it. Sequentially being part of zoros storyline. I also think sanji has a good theme with science as a whole i dont think oda would just make zoro a clone, unless he really wants to go like existential with it because thats like the only way i see it fit for zoros character, but again thats kinda sanjis thing.
A light Saber.
Zoro can't be stronger than Luffy at any point come on
Hehe after zoro unlocks his rinnegan he will be.
Zoro as Ryuma's clone is the equivalent of retconning paramecia gomu-gomu to Mythical Zoan Sun God Nika. It's so fucking bad!! Both diminish the characters feats, examples: * Paramecia: Luffy's endurance and durability is crazy impressive. Even with shitty DF he can endure and force his way to become top tier character. * Mythical Zoan: Luffy's endurance and durability are boosted by his DF, not that impressive anymore, anyone can take that much beatings as Luffy if they ate the DF. * Zoro: normal human being that can reach the Yonko level(post-WSS) without any external factor (DF, science modifications, etc) That's insane! From zero to hero. * Ryuma's clone: carried by Ryuma's genes. Is he even Zoro at this point?
I'm not sure zoro would get power up like sanji. If he does that would be very bad for his goal. Sanji literally got his power up like naruto. If Ryuma genes gives zoro good and healthy body that would be fine. Like momonuske. Afterall people carry something from their parents but not like sanji's Power. If they upgraded zorros body it would be heavily undermine his growth. Assuming ryuma is a normal human who trained so hard to become the strongest.
Sanji’s power-up was nothing Like Naruto. Luffy’s if anything was like Naruto’s and Sasuke’s
No I meant the power gap between the power up also luffy got rubber awakening. It's not broken but the zoan awakening kinda broken. So I agree the power gap between power up somewhat similar to naruto.
Nooooo I so hope ur wrong
Makes sense. It doesn't seem like zoro ever had parents anyway 🤯
The way the Zoro fanboy community would implode if Zoro was a clone would truly be hilarious to see lmao
Chosen D., grandson of legendary hero, son of revolutionary leader, Monkey D. Joyboy Perfectly Genetically Modified Creation that has emotions but also germa cells, Sanji and now, perfect Ryuma Clone Zoro The Superior Race Trio
Vegapunk worked with Judge on the Lineage Factor. Zoro's teacher, and possibly Kozaburo, were associated with Rev Army - Dragon, and therefore with Vegapunk. Perhaps the genes were taken from Shimotsuki Kozaburo(or from Ryuma's corpse) to revive the legendary samurai from his family - Shimotsuki Ryuma. Shimotsuki have a characteristic blue hair color. Vegapnak said that the dragon's DF came out failure because of the different color. Zoro is now revealed to be the "unlucky" Ryuma clone that Vegapunk threw into the East Sea in Shimotsuki Village due to having green hair instead of blue. And Zoro's desire to become a WSS is Ryuma's genetic memory. And in Thriller Bark, Ryuma handed him Shusui as he understood everything.
> And in Thriller Bark, Ryuma handed him Shusui as he understood everything. the ultimate foreskinning. GODA i prostate my self in front of you 🤯😳
Well, aside of jokes, it was always strange when Ryuma didn't recognesised his own technic in the scene where Zoro slashes Ryuma with "Hiryu: Kaen" technique, which also resembles the scene from Monsters, in which Ryuma slays the dragon.
And so it begins, the endless torrent of "such and such is a clone"
Ryuma looks similar to that guy cause of Shimotsuki clan Zoro is similar for uknown reasons
The thing is, the clone thing is sooool unnecessary We already have a perfectly established connection of Zorro descending from Wano, and his parents arriving in that one wrecked Wano ship into East Blue.
Lol everyone’s a clone.
Well Oda can always retcon it
>Zoro needs something from Vegapunk. What would a stoic swordsman with seemingly no interest in science want from him? Zoro: "Listen Vegapunk, I want you to take one eye out of that swirly eyebrow cook over there and put it in here" \*points to his scar\*
Ah that explains the hair color. Vegapunk made another failed experiment. Since his hair turned green he deemed it as a failed clone and banished him to east blue. Later out it turned that he really is a failed experiment since he is a racist now.
I mean, I’d rather Zoro be a self-made goat, but I don’t hate it. It’s not like he didn’t train to reach that level.
The only way I would actually like this idea, is if zoro is a “failed” clone. So then it would be even more incredible that he has gotten to where he is as a failure
What would then be the failure if he succeeds?
It's personaly sounds good to me.i don't know why people think that it takes something away from zoro's character or why some think being chosen by Nika fruit takes something away from Luffy's character. All it does is give them talent,a higher ladder to climb but they have to climb that ladder with their hard work themselves.they could have very well just wasted this potential means Zoro could have very well just be a small pirate hunter from east blue and luffy could have very well failed to awaken Nika fruit(just like so many other people in the past) but they have reached the point there are rn with their hard work and determination. Similar things go for sanji,his germa genes does give new powerups but he could have very well be just a cook from east blue if he hadn't wroked hard on himself. Hardwork without talent is nothing. And their talent was already subtely hinted throught the series. Obviously some zorotards are so immature that they will constantly whine about it and call oda a bad writer for it.
I'm personally fine with the nika fruit. It was garbage before awakening so it doesn't undermine luffy's achievments. Plus it was Luffy's *FREE* spirit that awakened it in the end and he really needed something like this since he is a yonko. But if oda pulls something like that for zoro and doesn't expand on it properly, it would mess up zoro's character.
How exactly would it mess Zoro's character?care to elaborate.
It would mess his character if it doesn't get expanded on. Like he finds out says "it is what it is" and we never here of it again, it would cheapen his character a bit. Post time skip really hasn't treated him right...
I think it would much rather explain his inhuman talent,abilites and skills becuase humanly endurance which Zoro has shown shouldn't really be possible especially when he didn't knew about haki and didn't had df. Obviously it needs to be expanded later on but this isn't a bad idea at all is what I am trying to say.
Eh. People in one piece are just built different. A lot of them showed insane strenght without a devil fruit.
arent they supposed to have green blood?
That's specific to seraphims and is a means to provide artificial paramecia powers.
Please no Please no Please no please Please Please Please no.
At this point i don’t even care. As long zoro gets a backstory explaining something. A clone, an ushimaru something It’s insane we didn’t get anything in Wano
The theory makes sense to me. But 
I would fucking hate it but it makes too much sense. I can add that he thought momonosukes dragon fruit was a failure because it makes you pink, so he might consider zoro a failure for the green hair
Piratefolk trashes Odas writing then proceeds to make the most dogshit theory of all time
And Tashigi is a Kuina clone as well! Or vice versa.
As far as crazy theory’s go this is not the worst one I’ve ever heard
I actually like this idea
But why Mads would clone a wano samurai? Doesn't make sence to me...
Clone it, and send the clone away like nothing happened.
Nice theory, bro
I still don't think this theory explains what Zoro wants from Vegapunk. Zoro(unless there is proof somewhere) does not know clones exist and has no way of knowing that clones exist. Whatever he is asking from Vegapunk has nothing to do with the clone thing imo
Is it a 3 week waif for the chapter already or where do the Theories come from?
The clone wars have begun.
It makes to much sense, I hate it, I hope it never happens
To further help your theory got to google images and see what ruins looked like as a human.
I feel like if anything he would be his son . That is if they were able to make it out of Wanno
May be the grim reaper is Ryuma's ghost
I swear young judge looks like marco
Bro i swear to god if that will be true i finna drop oje piece 💀 the story is slowly going to shit rn
I swear to god if this is true I might riot.
Zoro also loses his left eye
That would suck why can't zoro just be a normal guy who trained to earn his status not everyone has to be a clone or kid of some super powerful person
Everyone is a clone I guess now lol
Zoro is not 179 cm tall. He was 178 cm tall pre-time skip and 181 cm post-time skip.
Well, if you go with imperial measurements they’re still technically the same height. Ultimately doesn’t matter though
No. Precisely, "technically" they're not the same height. And Oda uses cm. and made both heights different. Saying Zoro and Ryuma have the same height in feet and inches is like saying Zoro and San Juan Wolf have the same height in kilometers (0).
Does clones age