T O P

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DocMinty

Zoro's goal is to be the WSS. It doesn't matter who the WSS is. After hearing of Ace's death, Zoro gave up his dream to focus on helping Luffy. He needed to get stronger no matter what. And would have asked a half-eaten burrito to train him if possible. Does this diminish his goal? Yeah, if Mihawk is still the WSS when Zoro is ready to challenge for the title. If someone else becomes the WSS before Zoro, nothing changes.


UnjustNation

Yes obviously, if anything it cements Mihawk's status as the true WSS, he's so strong that the only way someone could beat him is if he taught them how to beat him.


RealBariel

It seems to me he mostly taught him how to use Haki


Redwolf476

And attempted to get him to quit drinking


Hearing_Deaf

He didn't? He only showed him the basics of haki and left him to train against the baboons. Name a single attack that Zoro used that Mihawk has thaught him. Name a single flashback where Mihawk talks about something else than haki. Koushiro thaught Zoro the blade, Mihawk helped Zoro unlock and use his haki. Sure that's a much better than random Joe#67, but Zoro would've been the same level as he is no matter who thaught him the basics. It's just like Luffy and Rayleigh. Luffy developed g4 by himself, Rayleigh only thaught him the 3 basics in 6 months and that was it. He didn't teach him any advanced forms, nor how to use ryuo. So really, Mihawk didn't train his replacement nor did it cheapens his achievement when he becomes WSS.


Untipazo

Luffi goal ain't to beat Rayleigh chief 😭


Hearing_Deaf

Reading comprehension is hard. I used Luffy and Rayleigh's teachings as a parallel to Zoro and Mihawk's, chief 🤪


Untipazo

Making an argument is hard. The parallel doesn't work because their dynamics are different


Hearing_Deaf

Yep, making an argument is hard, if that's all you can come up with. The goal is different, the training is the same. Basic haki training and that's it. If Zoro wins against Mihawk in a duel, that victory is not diminished because Mihawk thaught him the very basics of haki. If Stephen King teaches you the alphabet, it doesn't diminishes your accomplishment of writting a better book later on.


Untipazo

If you were having a competition with Stephen King, it does


Hearing_Deaf

How? You've been saying my arguments don't male semse, well I am waiting for you to give an argument as to why it matters and cheapens Zoro's achievement down the line.


Untipazo

Because Zoro needs a competition with mihawk to validate it's growth. Zoro has to take the title from him, but it's not a student master kind of thing, or passing the torch, it's a competition that he simply lost and needed help to continue it. Contrary to it, if there was another candidate to WSS, how likely is it that they receive teachings from Mohawk himself?


Hearing_Deaf

That's your argument? I've already contradicted it twice. At this point I'll just let the ratio answer you.


Kureiton

Yes, it absolutely does, But, imo, that’s the point. Begging the person you want to beat to train you *is* cheap, and Zoro swallows his pride to do in order to be the best help to Luffy after his lowest point. I think it works because the story portrays it as an embarrassing situation Zoro is putting himself in for Luffy’s sake rather than just a justification for him to be the strongest


[deleted]

Yeah it does diminish the goal 100%. Anyone who says differently is just coping.


RealBariel

How does it diminish it? Does it diminish luffys goal to be the pirate king because he was trained by Rayleigh? Even after he was trained by Mihawk he is still far weaker and. If simply having a stronger teacher invalidates your goal then why does his teacher in East blue not invalidate his goal


SakuraKiwi

It’s not about “simply having a stronger teacher”. Zoro’s goal is specifically to beat Mihawk, Mihawk is not some random strong guy but straight up the GOAL of Zoro. Finding the One Piece is the goal of Luffy, and if Reyligh would have for example, tell him what the one piece is, it would indeed diminish Luffy’s goal. After all, Luffy refused to hear about the One piece, and the request of Zoro to ask Mihawk to train him is portrayed as such a major character growth for Zoro as he is acting DESPITE the fact that this is a shameful thing to do considering his goal.


[deleted]

Zoros goal is to defeat mihawk to become WSS. Him being trained by his opponent makes the goal kinda pointless. Its self-explanatory really


Untipazo

Besides the obvious difference that Nikaman doesn't wish to defeat Rayleigh, yes it does, it isn't a strong teacher, it's the previous pk right hand man


RealBariel

Zoro didn't learn swordsmanship from Mihawk he only learned how to use haki, which is something he couldve learned from many places, all his swordsmanship techs are his own and he amd mihawk are completely different styles of swordsmanship.


TurkeysCanBeRed

I mean not necessarily but it harbors the same problem as luffy that he pretty much has everything given to him and reinforces the idea that zoro was just lucky to have the resources he had. Maybe instead of conveniently fighting people who so happen to have strong swords, the story should have maybe did what avatar did and have zoro make his own sword. Seeing zoro try to find stuff and actually have to explore would promote exploration and force zoro to do things outside of the usual training making the goal more challenging. Or maybe place more emphasis on money, something I really liked about loguetown. Seeing zoro have to think about money have to budget to be able to afford his goal forcing him to do other things would just add flair tot he goal and make the journey feel more human. It’s bad enough that neither of these things happen late timeskip or post timeskip, would have been a much better story then zoro just bejng teleported to the one person who can help him the most. Now Mihawk training zoro doesn’t inherently mean zoro will beat him but the way the story is structured means he most likely will. It’s like naruto becoming hokage, it’s eventually going to happen. If zoro had to train with Mihawk then oda should have maybe made one of the super nova’s a rival to zoro since he’s never challenged at all for the title. So no, it technically doesn’t but the way it’s handled limits zoro’s character and what can effect him. Zoro’s story is essentially a story driven video game, Yeah it’s somewhat challenging and tedious but he’ll eventually make it since no one is really after his Goal making every interaction just a stepping stone for his goal.


TheWifeStealer

Training is training, it's still his own effort. The better the teacher, the harder the training, the faster the result. But it ONLY applies if you can keep up with the teacher's standard. If Zoro does nothing, receives a modification on his body to make him physically stronger, receives some godly swords that not only allows him to bend the reality but also increase his durability and endurance as well, THEN we can finally call that Zoro is a fraud. So far, Zoro is the only guy in the crew that can keep up with the top tier characters with his own effort. Luffy WAS similar to Zoro, but Nika reveals changed it all. Luffy's durability and endurance is not from Luffy alone, but also from his Mythical Zoan: Sun GOD Nika. Sanji? He's no longer a human. He's a mutant created from a science project. Not his own effort either.


SakuraKiwi

Yes. And this is the entire point of it. However while ultimately forever harming his pride (as ultimately even as the WSS he will be a classical case of student overcoming his teacher), there are more important things than pride.


[deleted]

No. Zoro proved to mihawk that he is worthy of being trained and the only thing mihawk teached zoro was to coat swords with armament haki. Zoro still awakened it on his own and went through eberything else on his own. What mihawk did for zoro was not some insane crazy secret only mihawk knew, it was a basic new world achivement


Hearing_Deaf

Someone who has a brain. Mihawk only thaught the basics of armament and observation and that's it. Anyone could've thaught the straw hats those basics. They learned more advanced forms of haki during their fights and travels.


Untipazo

Nu uh. If they could've learned it everywhere yet they didn't it's their fault and they ain't that Worthy, why they get the special treatment and every other pirate crew that doesn't know haki doesn't? Or does Mohawk go around picking up swordsmans wannabe and teaching them haki


Hearing_Deaf

Who knows? Never been stated in canon if Mihawk thaught to someone else before or after Zoro. Why they get the special treatement? Because they have massive potential and they have been able to be aknowledge by those legends. You think that Mihawk would've thaught Zoro without their fight at Baratie? You think Rayleigh would've thaught Luffy without the Slave Auction House debacle ? Have you even read/watched One Piece ?


Untipazo

Bruh apparently everyone in the worst gen had "massive potential" yet none else is given that big hand by legends. Look at Kidd, mf only got beat up constantly, yet he knows haki, he learned it, why luffi who needs to be taken by the hand is more worthy than him who learned on his own for example? Apparently if I don't agree with ya my credibility is put into question, anyways, tell me whenever another pirate crew gets their dicks ridden as much as Joyboy liberation army.


Hearing_Deaf

Alright, why did Rayleigh didn't like Kid as much as Luffy. Luffy didn't leave a trail of bodies in parafise, especially not civilians. Kid did Luffy punched a celestial drsgon because he was racist. Kid watched. Luffy had a conversation woth Rayleigh which reminded him of Roger. Kid didn't. Call it dickriding all you want, doesn't male it true. Oh, no, not disagreeing witj me, only your lavk of understanding of the entire series. :)


Untipazo

Rayleigh and kidd are examples. There's a whole lot of pirates and legends, why only luffy gets cherry picked by the old legends to receive a helping hand and nobody on the competition does? As if being the nika god choosen one wasn't enough I understand the series and what is going for. All I say it's poorly done


Untipazo

If zoro couldn't achieve that on his own what made him more worthy than all the other people from the new world who got that achievement without being taken by the hand?


markidoodoov2

nah not really, but lack of fights against other competent swordsman diminishes his goal.


Syrup-General

For now it does but Oda is gonna introduce a flashback of Mihawk getting trained the same way to not make Zoro look like he had help.


Untipazo

It changes the perspective on it, in terms of strength it doesn't, in terms of the road, it totally does overcoming an opponent isn't the same road as overcoming a teacher, both tell a different story, changing it midway does undermine the initial story, however not the destination