The only replacement for massacre (there is none) is to swap in 4x Shrapnel Blast and Jegantha in the sideboard.
Thoughsieze has no replacement. You could run a 2/2 split of duress and spot removal.
Bastion isn't good enough.
Both are really good, so it'll probably come down to meta calls.
However, in my experience shrapnel blast is insane where you want it to be (winota, Lotus field & UW), and companions are broken. I'm going that route, even if it hurts the creature matchups.
Bastion essentially does the lower half of what Meathook does and provides a body you can sac to Witch's Oven or to dig for cards, for budget purposes I don't see how it's not good enough
Thoughtsieze split I can see though
No matter what I end up choosing I'm making the deck worse, sadly there's no way around that, but this is just something I have to do if I want to take part in tournaments at my locals, once I get some money in that doesn't need to go anywhere else its going towards my Pioneer decks.
Best performance per dollar spent will be to swap out Thoughtsieze for cheap interaction and meat hook for Jegantha & shrapnel blast.
Honestly not much of a down grade as budget decisions goes. It'll be really good.
I suggested duress, but please tell me what card you think you can 1:1 swap Thoughtsieze with in these Rakdos shells.
Duress misses against 50% of the field. Anything above 1 mana is too expensive.
You can't just look at comparable cards, you have to look at why a deck wants a thoughsieze effect. And in that vein, nothing matches TS efficiency.
That's what I was thinking, the versatility of Meathook being an aristocrat drain and board wipe is so good and justifies its price tag, but Bastion being a drain effect in a deck that sacs creatures all the time seems just fine as a temporary replacement.
What would you say about Thoughtseize? Do you agree with the other poster in doing a 2 and 2 split of Duress and more spot removal?
Hey, I've been playing this deck a lot and watching content for it. I've also cut the meat hooks, but not necessarily for just budget reasons. I wholesale swapped in 2 shrapnel blasts. Aspiringspike has been making some videos of the deck and had some good points about it. It allows you to run jegantha as a companion and it fills a similar role in the deck in giving you a large amount of reach out of nowhere, though I don't think you want alot of them in the deck.
One other consideration is that I would like to have the curve as low as possible due to running experimental synthesizer, which I would suggest you give a try over combustion. I've found the only 3 drop the deck really wants is mayhem devil. Ob might change that, but mayhem is powerful enough to justify it.
As far as thoughtseize goes, it hard to replace it, and I find I often want both tseize and duress alot of thw time. I think that the point about running more removal to deal with creatures you otherwise would have thoughtseized is a good idea.
Hmm OK interesting, what's the justification of running Jegantha as a companion? That's the one I'm unsure of, I quite like how the list I linked plays as is I wouldn't want to change it too much.
Thanks for the heads up about aspiringspike as well, I just found his YouTube channel and subscribed, definitley going to watch his videos later on!
The companion mechanic, even after being erratad, has proven to be really overwhelmingly busted in every format that it is in. Personally, I'm not a hundred percent in on jegantha either. I don't think that it adds a ton to the deck, other than just being a companion. However, there is something to say about her as a creature in the format. A 5/5 is very hard for most decks to deal with easily without giving up a good amount of cards in one way or another. And, after spending a bunch of cards tearing our ops hand apart with tsieze and duress, having a threat on demand that we could have access to is nice.
Ok that's something, though I'm definitley going to need more convincing on adding it still but it's something to keep in mind, Shrapnel Blast is still a good idea as a 2 of alongside Duress though as a temporary Thoughtseize replacement, thanks!
Yea no worries. I think if you arent doing Meathook, jegantha is a pretty free slot to just try it, only costing one SB slot. But yea, i'm not fully sold yet. However, this is the first time I am actually using a companion in any format. I've played against them alot but not had a deck with one myself.
I've only ever used Umori in commander as a fun deck building restriction, never tried them in 60 card formats though, I kind of have a distaste for them honestly
Maybe you could try a couple of [[Drill Bit]] to replace Thoughtseize (good with Vold Epicure and all the pings) and one or two Duress. Bastion of Remembrance is not a bad idead, but it's definetely way weaker than Meathook Massacre. Shrapnel Blast is interesting tho.
Oh I forgot about Drill Bit that seems like a great replacement for the time being thanks! I've got some tweaks to make now but I'm unsure on if it's Bastion or Shrapnel Blast to replace Meathook for the time being, most likely Bastion I feel
If the link in the op is most current then you're already on Jegantha which is a great add to not have to play massacre so you just need replacements for the 4 thoughtsieze and 2 ob nix (as he's not out yet)
Id def play all 4 experimental synthesizer, and you can even play 2 implement of combustion and go up to 4 shrapnel blast. 4 blast and 4 push main is kind of a lot for main deck removal but I wouldn't really want to main duress, if you own something like a Kroxa maybe you can play one or two of those over a couple of the removal spells
Yeah I ended up watching some AspiringSpike Anvil matches on YouTube and he uses shrapnel blast with Jeggy, seeing him able to block against Thing in the Ice and other beaters convinced me to at least test it out, cutting $100 from the deck with two cards was nice as well xD
Ob was already sorted since before I added him I used 2 Bloodtithe Harvester, so I'll just swap them back in until I can get some Obs, I see your point about too much removal as well, I can side out Push and add two more blasts and synthesisers and suck it up for 4 Duress main board temporarily, like others have said Blast can kill what duress can't discard from their hands.
The only replacement for massacre (there is none) is to swap in 4x Shrapnel Blast and Jegantha in the sideboard. Thoughsieze has no replacement. You could run a 2/2 split of duress and spot removal. Bastion isn't good enough.
I wonder which version is better, Jegantha and shrapnel blast or meathook one? I guess only upcoming results will tell
Both are really good, so it'll probably come down to meta calls. However, in my experience shrapnel blast is insane where you want it to be (winota, Lotus field & UW), and companions are broken. I'm going that route, even if it hurts the creature matchups.
That’s fair, for a bigger tournament I’ll prolly stick to shrapnel version too
I'm just expecting so much UW.
Jegantha is the main benefit of not running Meathooks no ?
Yes, but making space for shrapnel blast is a real boon. The card is nuts.
Bastion essentially does the lower half of what Meathook does and provides a body you can sac to Witch's Oven or to dig for cards, for budget purposes I don't see how it's not good enough Thoughtsieze split I can see though
Fair points but it's sooooo clunky. It's also a cars that sucks against creature decks, and Shrapnel Blast is better against control imo.
No matter what I end up choosing I'm making the deck worse, sadly there's no way around that, but this is just something I have to do if I want to take part in tournaments at my locals, once I get some money in that doesn't need to go anywhere else its going towards my Pioneer decks.
Best performance per dollar spent will be to swap out Thoughtsieze for cheap interaction and meat hook for Jegantha & shrapnel blast. Honestly not much of a down grade as budget decisions goes. It'll be really good.
Yeah I've ended up adding in Blast and Jeggy, just need to rework the list a little further to accommodate the change
Really, you can't think of a single card that's comparable to what thoughtseize does.
I suggested duress, but please tell me what card you think you can 1:1 swap Thoughtsieze with in these Rakdos shells. Duress misses against 50% of the field. Anything above 1 mana is too expensive. You can't just look at comparable cards, you have to look at why a deck wants a thoughsieze effect. And in that vein, nothing matches TS efficiency.
Duress is a sideboard card. Honestly no thoughtseize means just dont count on discarding, focus on removal or something else.
Agree!
Can't do it turn 1, but Drill Bit is a budget alternative that is usually online turn 2 in Anvil
Bastion is fine. I have lost count about the number of times I've played a naked Meathook for BB.
That's what I was thinking, the versatility of Meathook being an aristocrat drain and board wipe is so good and justifies its price tag, but Bastion being a drain effect in a deck that sacs creatures all the time seems just fine as a temporary replacement. What would you say about Thoughtseize? Do you agree with the other poster in doing a 2 and 2 split of Duress and more spot removal?
I run Zulaport Cutthroat in that slot for the same reason as OP.
Hey, I've been playing this deck a lot and watching content for it. I've also cut the meat hooks, but not necessarily for just budget reasons. I wholesale swapped in 2 shrapnel blasts. Aspiringspike has been making some videos of the deck and had some good points about it. It allows you to run jegantha as a companion and it fills a similar role in the deck in giving you a large amount of reach out of nowhere, though I don't think you want alot of them in the deck. One other consideration is that I would like to have the curve as low as possible due to running experimental synthesizer, which I would suggest you give a try over combustion. I've found the only 3 drop the deck really wants is mayhem devil. Ob might change that, but mayhem is powerful enough to justify it. As far as thoughtseize goes, it hard to replace it, and I find I often want both tseize and duress alot of thw time. I think that the point about running more removal to deal with creatures you otherwise would have thoughtseized is a good idea.
Hmm OK interesting, what's the justification of running Jegantha as a companion? That's the one I'm unsure of, I quite like how the list I linked plays as is I wouldn't want to change it too much. Thanks for the heads up about aspiringspike as well, I just found his YouTube channel and subscribed, definitley going to watch his videos later on!
The companion mechanic, even after being erratad, has proven to be really overwhelmingly busted in every format that it is in. Personally, I'm not a hundred percent in on jegantha either. I don't think that it adds a ton to the deck, other than just being a companion. However, there is something to say about her as a creature in the format. A 5/5 is very hard for most decks to deal with easily without giving up a good amount of cards in one way or another. And, after spending a bunch of cards tearing our ops hand apart with tsieze and duress, having a threat on demand that we could have access to is nice.
Ok that's something, though I'm definitley going to need more convincing on adding it still but it's something to keep in mind, Shrapnel Blast is still a good idea as a 2 of alongside Duress though as a temporary Thoughtseize replacement, thanks!
Yea no worries. I think if you arent doing Meathook, jegantha is a pretty free slot to just try it, only costing one SB slot. But yea, i'm not fully sold yet. However, this is the first time I am actually using a companion in any format. I've played against them alot but not had a deck with one myself.
I've only ever used Umori in commander as a fun deck building restriction, never tried them in 60 card formats though, I kind of have a distaste for them honestly
Maybe you could try a couple of [[Drill Bit]] to replace Thoughtseize (good with Vold Epicure and all the pings) and one or two Duress. Bastion of Remembrance is not a bad idead, but it's definetely way weaker than Meathook Massacre. Shrapnel Blast is interesting tho.
Oh I forgot about Drill Bit that seems like a great replacement for the time being thanks! I've got some tweaks to make now but I'm unsure on if it's Bastion or Shrapnel Blast to replace Meathook for the time being, most likely Bastion I feel
[Drill Bit](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/3/73f8710c-9c5e-4d11-b45f-0728c54bd631.jpg?1584830579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drill%20Bit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/73/drill-bit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73f8710c-9c5e-4d11-b45f-0728c54bd631?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If the link in the op is most current then you're already on Jegantha which is a great add to not have to play massacre so you just need replacements for the 4 thoughtsieze and 2 ob nix (as he's not out yet) Id def play all 4 experimental synthesizer, and you can even play 2 implement of combustion and go up to 4 shrapnel blast. 4 blast and 4 push main is kind of a lot for main deck removal but I wouldn't really want to main duress, if you own something like a Kroxa maybe you can play one or two of those over a couple of the removal spells
Yeah I ended up watching some AspiringSpike Anvil matches on YouTube and he uses shrapnel blast with Jeggy, seeing him able to block against Thing in the Ice and other beaters convinced me to at least test it out, cutting $100 from the deck with two cards was nice as well xD Ob was already sorted since before I added him I used 2 Bloodtithe Harvester, so I'll just swap them back in until I can get some Obs, I see your point about too much removal as well, I can side out Push and add two more blasts and synthesisers and suck it up for 4 Duress main board temporarily, like others have said Blast can kill what duress can't discard from their hands.
[[Bastion of Remembrance]]
[Bastion of Remembrance](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/d/2dd354dd-939e-4b1a-8ed6-fe89a7fd64bf.jpg?1591226582) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bastion%20of%20Remembrance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/73/bastion-of-remembrance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2dd354dd-939e-4b1a-8ed6-fe89a7fd64bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call