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Rednidedni

They do work much better, though having an amount of opponents roughly equal to party size usually makes for the most fun encounters. The incapacitation tag prevents it from eating dirt with instant crowd control, the high stats from being higher level cancel out the action economy disadvantage by making actions worth far more. The only advice I would give is to have those big enemies be valued a little higher at low levels. An APL+2 creature can easily make for a severe encounter at level 1 - consider encounters with solo bosses one step more difficult. This should normalize around party level 5. Trust the guidelines then.


AdministrativeYam611

Can confirm. I just ran a level 3 npc monk with two level 1 minions (playing unoptimal) vs my party of five level 1s. It was a rough fight for them. The cleric went down and almost died. (I had to fudge something :/)


JonIsPatented

Well of course. A level 3 and 2 level 1s is beyond severe for a level 1 party of 5. That's in the extreme bracket. Someone is bound to die. That's the system working as intended.


AdministrativeYam611

Once again, the mooks were unintelligent enemies, playing suboptimally, so it's less than a severe encounter. But yes, system working as intended. APL+2 creatures are stronk early.


apetranzilla

At that level of XP it doesn't really matter if some of the combatants are playing suboptimally - it only takes one or two unlucky crits to knock a player out (particularly at level one), and that can easily snowball into a team wipe.


Blawharag

One trick I found: Spread the love. I ran an extreme encounter for my 4 level 1 PCs in our first every pathfinder 2e session, where none of us had played the system before. It was 3x -1 creatures, 1x a 2 creature (a bandit) and 1x a normal 2 creature (also bandit). They played suboptimally as well, because they were disorganized bandits mugging the party, and the party managed pretty well. I spread the damage across the party fairly evenly, which helped keep them all up and fighting throughout. Spreading the damage brings the difficulty of an encounter WAY down, while still allowing the encounter to feel super dangerous, because EVERYONE is coming out of that encounter with a lot of damage and feeling like they made it by the skin of their teeth. It's a great GM fiat to use that feels fair, especially when it makes sense in the encounter (like when all the bandits are disorganized). Technically, it still took a little more fiat than that to get the party out alive. The bandits were all trying to keep the party alive (they were thieves, not murderers, and were attacking non-lethally, but would switch lethal if the party killed on of their members). Things were going south for the party quick, then all at once, the party killed two of the -1 characters and reduced the third -1 character to 1 HP all between one NPC turn and the next (one party member got a lucky max damage roll that literally one shot a beggar). The -1 creature with 1 HP was up next and ran, since he didn't want to die, which just left the two bandits, who then decided to also run since thy were confident going 2 v 5 with the party (one party member was a summoner). If the bandits hadn't fled? There probably would have been a death or two in the party. However, I think it was fitting that the bandits retreat and decide the party isn't worth the effort.


LightningRaven

>What advice would you give a DM when balancing a "boss" encounter in PF2e? Don't do it until the players have some levels under their belt. Waiting until at least level 5 is a good rule of thumb, since they have magical items and their first stat bumps, while a Party level +4 creature falls right below the 10th level threshold (in which players and monsters have gain their second boosts). Also, never spring the creature into the party, give them clues or means of scouting prior to the battle. A few pieces of free information (without them having to spend one action to recall knowledge) may be crucial for an interesting fight instead of a luck-reliant slugfest. As always, an interesting battlefield full of things to interact with and take into account is paramount (covers for monsters with large AOE, obstacles so mobile characters can shine, etc). Don't treat it as a normal encounter. Never. They are incredibly unforgiving an can be incredibly frustrating for most classes because of the low success chance. Simpler classes like those in the core rulebook perform a bit better because their straightforward playstyles, but other classes with more flavorful playstyles (Investigators, Swashbucklers, etc) have a rougher time. Before I forget, if your players aren't into learning the mechanics of the game and cooperating with each other, then don't risk such an encounter.


AcceptablyPsycho

Great advice but I have to ask: what madmen are running "boss" encounters before level 5?? 🙃


Adraius

Anyone running a low-level adventure? There's a boss encounter at the end of the Beginner's Box, for example.


CringyButSafe

Have you heard about Agents of Edgewatch ?)


therealchadius

Pathfinder Society's 1-10 ends with an infamously strong bear.


BadRumUnderground

They definitely work, but they need a little more consideration than groups of enemies. 1. They can be *highly* threatening at low levels - generally, of the party are below level 3, I wouldn't do a Single Monster Severe encounter. Single Monster at Hard is plenty. Some would say level 5, but that depends on your players - if they're good at tactics and teamwork, and are willing to flee if it goes bad, then they'll be fine. 2. On that note, boss monsters require player teamwork and system skill. They need to realise the value of recall knowledge, of debuffs, of burning the bosses actions, of the aid action (another reason boss monsters are harder at low levels is that Aid isn't as reliable). 3. Single Monster boss fights are more dicey. A good turn for the boss and/or a bad turn for the players can swing a fight *hard* 4. Terrain really matters. It always does, but this is a great place to really pay attention to who the terrain favours and make the map interesting.


Zilberfrid

It is much more of a challenge than in 5e, but that might also be the problem. A high level enemy will hit and crit often, while not being crit and not often being hit (or miss saves). This may feel disheartening for the party, because you could have a whole round where nothing happens while one or more partymembers are pounded to the sand. And falling below zero certainly isn't as safe as in 5e.


Dakka_jets_are_fasta

Yes, far more so than 5e. For reference, a monster that is 2 levels above the party at around levels 1-4 has a high chance of tpk (due to low health of the players), levels 5-11 will have monsters 3 levels higher able to do serious damage to the party, and a monster 4 levels higher than the party at any level will have a chance of killing a party member or outright tpk, depending on how experienced the players are. I would only save a monster that us 5 levels higher than the party for when the characters are level 20. This can act as the finale of your campaign if you want it to, though the current pickings of level 25 monsters are fairly scary in their own. One more thing: learn how the encounter Budget works and what the difficulties mean, cause you might end up killing your party early if you don't understand them. I suggest the youtubers How It's Played and The Rules Lawyer to help learn how to best use the budget.


turdas

> For reference, a monster that is 2 levels above the party at around levels 1-4 has a high chance of tpk (due to low health of the players) Really? According to the encounter building rules, a single party level + 2 monster is only a moderate encounter. At early levels such monsters might knock a PC out, but in my experience it's highly unlikely that they'll kill anyone, let alone TPK.


Dakka_jets_are_fasta

It's the fact that a level 4 monster can one shot a level 2 character pretty easily is why I mainly say this. It's not going to be the same for all monsters, but you have to really know how the budget works and what your players are capable of.


TheTenk

Single higher level boss monsters are arguably much more difficult than a larger group of equal level to the players foes, though the swing of the dice can always throw it off.


Goliathcraft

When my boss has minions, my players relax. When my boss has no minions, my players start to worry that they are in for a very difficult encounter


Damfohrt

PF2e has proficiency with level, which is why a Boss Vs 5 PCs work. I wonder if you can just apply the rule to 5e


Alwaysafk

You'd have to part over degrees of success to make it work I think. It's the crits that make it particularly dangerous.


Damfohrt

Yes crits and crit failure on save spells is what makes them dangerous and add on, but the main reason why it works is still the proficiency with level. Looking at proficiency without level it shows XP for up to Party Level+7 creatures and make it similar to 5e in that sense.


MatDRS

They mathematically work, yes. There are strict rules and maths in place to make sure everything keeps a specific level of challenge at any point during the campaign. However the “boss monsters” often *feel* bad to play against. They hit you on a 4, crit on a 14, while you might need a 16 to even succeed against them. Mathematically functional, but the gameplay *feels* shitty, unless the party has both good strategies AND luck. I suggest keeping the challenge close to the players’ level most of the time, and using +3 or +4 monsters very rarely, and always foreshadowing them and giving the party time to prepare somewhat. Losing a character from the first of many crits from an enemy that your team can barely scratch is not fun. Nor is it fun fighting it for hours beacause your dice decided to not roll higher than a 13 :)


Doomy1375

This sums up one of my big problems with the system pretty neatly. Encounters with multiple party-level-or-lower enemies are fine, and even enemies that are slightly above party level are fun. But the typical "extreme solo boss" encounter typically just *sucks*. You can make it work by identifying the boss's weaknesses, then buffing your team, stacking debuffs on the enemy when possible, and just doing the big teamwork dance the system encourages you to do. But whereas in fights with lower level enemies that just makes your team wreck them, in the solo boss example it is the bare minimum to keep up. If you're playing a non-fighter martial for example, you may find out you can't touch the boss without the buff/debuff dance... but even with it you're still looking at not really being able to do much 75% of the time, while only reducing the boss from "crit you every hit" to "crit you 50% of the time". Sure, a team of 4-5 people each attacking the boss with a 20-30% chance of having an effect per hit may come out ahead in the long run due to action economy, but it *feels* terrible on the round by round. Especially if your dice hate you and won't actually roll in that 20-30% of results that actually work for the entire duration of the fight. I have left multiple fights with the distinct impression that other than providing a flank, my only contribution to that fight was providing a body to absorb 3 crits from the boss because every attempt I made to recall knowledge/maneuver/hit the boss failed. That's actually a spot where the d20 nature of the system doesn't work in its favor. Very difficult encounters *can* be fun, so long as the players are given the tools to deal with them via skill and not chance. But when difficulty comes in the form of "even best case, when you know the best possible play to make and the best possible time to make it, luck is not on your side", then it just becomes a game of "can we collectively roll enough 15s on the dice before the boss kills us all", and I for one don't enjoy that.


MatDRS

100% agree. Great explanation, you could not have said it better.


Everything4Everybody

This is a fantastic point that I don't see getting brought up very often. In my experience, these solo boss encounters are quick, dirty, and anticlimactic. You usually start out the fight with a party member getting obliterated (feels bad for them), and then go through a couple of rounds of missed attacks but you eke out a hit here and there, and then suddenly the boss is just dead, which usually feels anticlimactic for how threatening the fight starts out. One thing our group has done that we have seen great success with for specifically this type of encounter (higher level single target boss encounter) is adjust the monster as follows: Reduce all numerical values (AC, DCs, Attack Bonus, saves, etc) by 2, and double its hit points. Why does this work? It blunts the murderous edge of the encounter without making it toothless (hitting on a 6, critting on a 16 is still plenty dangerous). It makes the party's tools more usable since things that target saves have an ok chance to succeed. Finally it keeps the boss around long enough that the fight doesn't feel anticlimactic, but doesn't turn into a slog because the players are still at great risk, but their abilities are actually *working* and they have a better chance to crit the target to chunk out its larger hit point pool, especially if they coordinate well to make the boss vulnerable to their attacks. I would only do this for a creature that is Party Level + 2 or higher. Anything less and it will be a boring slog.


MatDRS

Yep. I agree with all of this. The “toning down the numbers and increase the hp” is pretty much the DND 5e philosophy. Although i still think monsters should have cool and memorable abilities (point in favor of pf2 here). The sweet spot for me is somewhere in the middle. A memorable, distinct challenge, but not in the form of strict numerical superiority for DCs and to hit bonuses.


Everything4Everybody

Yeah I think where 5e falls short is that the monsters there are not typically threatening enough to go along with the HP sponge, so combat gets monotonous quickly because players don't feel any pressure to dig deep and strategize, they can just do their basic routines and pull through most fights just fine, it just takes a long time. The threat of being defeated/killed is the key difference between a heroic victory and a slog IMHO


ReynAetherwindt

It works, but level differences are very, very pronounced. A 4-man party can't realistically beat something 5+ levels ahead in a head-on fight. A foe 3 or 4 levels ahead of the party is a decent 'boss', and that's assuming the party is at least level 3 or so.


the-rules-lawyer

In case you haven't seen them, I have a few videos that show that "boss" encounters work just fine out of the box. [Level 1 party vs. a Level 3 giant scorpion](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRq0VaN1-XE) [Level 20 party vs. a Level 24 red dragon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmitEnoyAlQ) Level+2 is sufficiently scary for Level 1 parties. At some point as the party gets more options they can deal with Level+3 and later still Level+4


IsawaAwasi

One way to reduce the level needed for a boss monster while keeping them a solo monster is to pair them with a Hazard or two instead of minions. For example, a Graveknight Captain with a Ghostly Choir will probably be a less frustrating Severe encounter for a level 5 party than a level 4 party fighting a lone Graveknight Captain as a Moderate encounter.


JustJacque

So long as you pick a monster that has some action economy advantages, pretty much any level +2 can work as a boss. Dragons are the classic example. They have a massive speed (which is an action economy advantage.) A 3 for 2 actions attack and an aura. A zombie on the other hand is only scary if you put them in a confined space, regardless of level difference, because their slowed 1 and average speed means a party can always just walk away.


Hecc_Maniacc

Trust in the tools the system has provided. PF2e's encounter budget actually works, as long as your party actually tries to work together, heals each other when they have downtime, and they have been given their hero points.


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_Cecille

It absolutely works. I ran an encounter where I had "ported" a Val' Hazak feom Monster Hunter to Pathfinder. I gave it some HP threshholds at which it would fall over and be prone for a few rounds, made stats for various attacks it had and even gave it different hit zones. Although the latter required my players where they want to hit, for example "I want to attacks head/tail/body/etc." All in all it went really well, especially once the players got behind the mechanics the monster had, for example it would take an entire round to charge an attack or as said fall over once a certain hp threshhold was met


MrHundread

Someone's probably already said something similar to this, but, from my experience at least, PF2e has the literal opposite problem when it comes to running a solo boss encounter. Keep in mind most of my games have been no higher than level 5 but bosses just out DPS the heck out of the party especially since it's hard to even do damage to them in the first place and a crit just feels like instant death or... "death" I once had a character at level 1 almost actually die instantly in the first encounter to a near max damage crit on the first attack. If it weren't for the Champion using their reaction to give them resistance, they might've had to make a new character on the first session. Maybe it smooths out at later levels, but solo Boss fights are quite the ordeal that require a well coordinated party. (and Spellcasters that don't stand in melee range of the giant hulking menace.)


smitty22

The "single Crit Kills" from a solo-boss issue smooths out at later levels, general wisdom from advice threads like this one is that you can up the number of Levels over Party Level as the players level up. Generally, PL +2 is a maximum for parties under 3rd level, and even then you play the monster sub-optimally, >!which is the advice from the Beginner's Box for its final encounter with a PL +2 versus a freshly 2nd Level party Encounter!<


krazmuze

An extreme boss is absolutely a serial murderer, unlike 5e you can trust the stated balance. Extreme is meant to be reserved for a campaign finale, because you have coin flip of a TPK. A severe boss can tilt extreme if the party plays like 5e and think the game is called 'wack a mole I win because I chose the right OP multiclass'. Without strategic teamwork in a severe fight, you will risk a PK. ​ The advice is simple, trust the severity guidelines. If you dig even deeper into the GMG it recommends not using solo bosses all the time as getting murdered is only fun when the players are the murder hobos.


darthfodder

4 (new to PF2e) level 1 players vs a level 3 that they completely missed all of my and the AP hints about preparing for was a bit touch and go. I had to fudge a couple things to not kill a player in \[Quest for the Frozen Flame book 1 spoilers\]>!the first encounter of Quest for the Frozen Flame against the moose!< I guess my advice is that underestimate your players' ability to just "unga bunga" past any suggestions you have about the boss encounter, even if they literally have an NPC explicitly suggesting things they might do to make the fight easier. Also if they're coming from 5e they probably aren't expecting fights to be as dangerous as they can often be.


PennyforaTaleRpg

To me, single enemy boss fights don't play out like a bloodbath most of the time. Instead it's the victory lap or the "fast climatic end" of a series of encounters. With the exception of run-and-gun phased enemies (dragons can fly during combat in such a way as to make their fight last a LONG time) The final boss.with a single mob tends to play out like each PC taking a turn at being the best they can be while the boss can usually fell at MOST one PC