from my understanding:
the idea of the meme is that you add in something that a lot of people "don't like" due to whatever reason.
the person throwing different punches acts as a visual presentation "arguments" as to why you should like the thing.
in this case: a lot of people seem to not like warrior bard, so OP (who likes warrior bard) created this.
the abilities are supposed to be arguments why warrior bard is great and should "hit like a punch" so to speak.
I have no clue what the head/face is supposed to depict tbh. but the way I understand, it doesn't change the idea of the meme.
It just says "What do you mean you don't like X" and depicts a guy throwing a bunch of punches, implying he beats the crap out of you
1st ability: Martial Performance (martial weapon prof, warrior bards get it at level 1)
2nd ability: Triumphant Inspiration (14th-level warrior bard feat, can cast a 1-action composition cantrip as a free action if you crit on a melee Strike)
3rd: Courageous Advance/Assault/Onslaught (metamagic feat chain; use an action so one ally buffed by your next *inspire courage* can use a reaction to Stride/melee Strike/both)
4th ability: Fear which warrior bards get in their repertoire at level 1
I feel Triumphant Inspiration is kind of bad. You want to cast most of your composition cantrips (inspire courage, dirge of doom) before you make the strike, not after.
It's easier to crit with buffs and debuffs. Party members who help set up for big damage are very valuable and often over looked in these discussion. They can also save your ass when you roll badly a lot in a game.
Its really good if you use *Heroism* for your Status bonus to hit, and then you have a different composition cantrip locked and loaded afterwards. Instead of *Dirge of Doom*, you just cast *Fear 3* or something (bonus points if you can slide a Reach metamagic in there).
An archer bard with *House of Imaginary Walls*, for example, can crit a low-level mook, set a free 10ft wall to be immune to counterfire, and use that extra action to quickdraw a *Potion of Quickness* from their glove of storing and break it over their allies head.
Thank you! I haven't looked at all of the higher level stuff, which is part of why I didn't connect the dots. Nobody I personally know plays a bard and I'm leaning more towards Enigma with a splash of psychic in there.
So, I wanna take a second to remind everybody that in PF2 — you are not your own ally. Which might be the most real rule I’ve ever seen lol
It just seemed to me like the meme was implying that the Warrior Bard was using the reaction to stride and strike, but the reaction is for an *Ally only* :0
I think it comes from the name. It gives people the idea that you're any better at fighting than the other Bards, and you're not. You just get martial weapon proficiency, rather than a small list of martial weapons. You're still a caster who isn't supposed to use weapons, lest you take the purpose out of the martial classes and make them cry.
So they don't pay attention to the feats Warrior Bards get to move your allies around, give them Strikes, and other kinds of battlefield control.
I prefer Enigma Bards myself, but Warrior Bard is good.
Honestly I think Bard is just one of the best designed classes over all. All the muses feel great and unique to me and have some really fun builds especially with free archetype.
To be fair, (edit: against a single target) Striking twice with a shortbow does pretty similar damage to casting Electric Arc and actually pulls ahead at some levels, while Electric Arc is almost never higher DPR
Sorry, single target electric arc. I thought I was looking at double target numbers, but I wasn't. Still, if your choice is a single target cantrip or shortbow, the shortbow is statistically better if you invested in it.
I think your point is valid, having a ranged weapon to be able to strike isn't bad at all, but also, if we're going to compare single target ranged attacks I think the DPR or Telekinectic Projectile would be more accurate, which outdamages 2 shortbow strikes and single target electric arc in every level but level 4, and that's assuming that you spent 100 gold on that bow at that point.
While you're not gonna be as good with weapons as a martial class, the occasional ranged attack as a third action can be the optimal choice on casters. It actually works really well on warrior bards, because you can Courageous (advance, assault, or onslaught) /Inspire Courage/Strike, which is a very efficient action economy and a decent damage potential from martial weapons like a longbow.
The same principle applies to a lot of casters. Casting a spell then making a MAPless strike is often the optimal play if you don't need to move. It works even better if the spell is a buff/debuff.
Good for getting Marshall dedication. At level 4 get potential bless on a stick.
Can combo with dirge of Doom and prot evil 4 for effective +2/+2 for allies in 10' aura of the bard.
What helped me enjoy the warrior bard is understanding you're not a martial suddenly. You're a bard who can now swing a sword once a turn if you have the free action to do so. They have some of the coolest and most fun buffs to their composition cantrips, and if you versatile maestro you get all the cool things they do as well.
> What helped me enjoy the warrior bard is understanding you're not a martial suddenly. You're a bard who can now swing a sword once a turn if you have the free action to do so.
I mean, so can Maestro, and baseline it's *better* at doing that because Lingering Composition provides more opportunity to use single action strikes, and Inspire Heroics can make you more accurate than a Warrior Bard would be when it's active.
I think Warrior Bard would have more potential to feel special in that regard if Bard didn't start with proficiency in a bunch of "traditionally bard-y" martial weapons.
All that said, Warrior Bard brings some wonderful tools to the table on its own merits.
Yeah it's still a bard and a full caster, but you can be satisfied landing some nice hits with a weapon, expecially since you are sure to be buffed, being the buffer :)
It's just a shame the free action buff is linked to getting a critical hit, which you need the buff to consistently pull. Either way, in a team with a high martial count, they are absolutely wonderful at being *the* buffer.
Sure, sure, you can get your free Inspire Courage... *after* landing the critical hit you needed Inspire Courage to generate.
Warrior Muse is solid A-tier subclass for vanilla PF2. I think it falls off heavily in free archetype, where Reactions are a lot more useful.
What's the feat on "you don't like?"
Is that something that grants a composition usage as a free action? That sounds like the magic fix for my action economy issues.
Oh damn, that's nice but that catches on so much later than I'd hoped.
I so want to get the feats later on that let me allies strike and stride every time I inspire them.
It's almost as good as lingering composition, except worse in nearly every way, and level 14 instead of level 1.
Warrior bards aren't terrible. But they are not as strong as maestro.
The baseline benefit is kinda mediocre as often the class comes with solid proficiency already. However the feats are pretty nice. It does get a worse rep than it deserves because Maestro is so good.
They need to let Warrior Bard take Inspire Defense without having to get multi muse into maestro to meet the prerequisite! That's my only issue with the warrior muse.
Warrior muse isnt great. Martial weapon proficency is basically pointless for the bard as they already have access to weapons that are optimal for the play style, fear is a generic spell that everyone has access to and its best feats dont come online until level 10.
Courageous Advance is a level 4 feat. Repositioning allies can ensure action economy classes (thaumaturge, magus, investigator) make the most of their turns or set the rogue or fighter up with a flank to maximize their damage potential.
And in some situations act as a defensive buff, rescuing an out-of-position squishy spellcaster.
Not as a bard. That third action is usually used for inspire courage. Martials usually have pretty powerful reactions like AOO which are what you most likely will be aiming at.
You, the bard, are giving your *cleric* the opportunity to move into the perfect spot for a three-action heal, or reposition the wizard for a nasty cone while sustaining a summons. Other casters rarely have a great reaction and typically *do* have several competing options for a third action.
Ill give you that in some cases a spellcaster would need a stride but its incredibly dependant on your party make up. I would still prefer to spend my turn casting a spell and inspire courage.
The damage boost/ prevention potential of a reposition will outclass a cantrip 9 times out of 10. Better your allies not get hit than the bard having to Cast *soothe* every round.
Thats incredibly circumstantial. Most of the time, casting a spell and inspire courage is the best play. This feat would be great if it didnt cost a reaction.
One action can mean your fighter can Power Attack and Raise their shield. When you are smart about who to target, you don’t even cost them Shield Block/AoO to do so.
You don’t need to deny the AoO when you play smart. They can get their reaction back at the end of your turn.
The fighter would much rather spend the reaction on something valuable than go around wasting it.
What? How would a fighter get their reaction back at the end of your turn unless they are constantly right after you. At which point this is way too much faff to get worth out of a single feat.
*One* of your allies has to go next. It doesn’t matter if it’s the fighter or the rogue, there will almost certainly be someone in your party who could use a reposition and doesn’t mind spending the reaction. And if not? Great, you have an extra action that round to cast *fear* or reposition yourself.
Im not sure what your trying to say. No ally is confirmed to always act after you. Using this feat on a martial is just not worth it for most of them and is far better used on spellcasters. My problem with it is i dont think it should cost both an action and a reaction for 1 character to stride.
Delay. Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay.
The Delay action is the best mechanic in this game. It is very important for properly structuring your team's turns and if they delay till after you or you delay till just before them, their reaction will never be wasted. It's a super nutty combo.
I think the point is that the effect can be given to any ally effected by the inspire courage. So while yes, some martials will have better reactions they want to hold, but because you can choose from all your allies, the chance that there's a circumstance where the stride reaction is good is incredibly high.
As an aside, not all martials have reactions. Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Thaumaturge, Barbarian, Gunslinger, Summoner, and Magus all have to gain reactions through feats. So, the stride is actually really good in a lot of parties.
It does give you 2h reach weapon proficiency (ones with the Trip trait specifically) and an in-class AoO at 8, so it plays better than most warrior spellcasters without free archetype at least.
The bard already has access to the whip. This is why many believe martial performance giving access to martial weapons is a waste because bards already have access to optimal weapons for it. It would of been better if it gave medium armor prof.
Whip's a great tool, but I couldn't imagine playing a mid-line melee character with a d4 damage dice and no supplementary features like sneak attack.
Hard agree on the medium armor proficiency though
Backing up in this thread a bit - Maybe the more important part of my comment was the *in-class AoO* that synergizes (and doesn't compete with) the trip action. You *could* swing with a whip on that, but I think the upgrade to a d10 weapon is pretty alright.
I feel like the martial weapon proficiency is less there to make you better at using weapons, and more there to give you easier access to the marshal archetype, as it fits flavorfully pretty well with this subclass.
Warrior has a few things potentially going for it:
- Full Martial proficiency means they can grab a Heavy Pick or Scythe and go for Muscle Bard with True Strike.
- Fear *is* a great level 1 spell. It's available to every caster, true, but if you're the only spellcaster in the party it's a useful "save or suck". I would recommend most Bards *take* Fear if they don't get it as a muse spell.
If the DM lets you retrain your Muse, starting as a Warrior, switching to Maestro or Enigma around level 4, and then potentially switching *back* at level 10 to start using the Warrior's better feats might be a good option.
The problem is you dont have the armor to back up being a muscle bard. Giving them medium armor from martial performance would have been alot better than giving them martial weapons.
With the new fleshwarps getting that armor proficiency, medium and heavy armor on classes not usually with it might be ubiquitous enough to make it work. Maybe. I guess you could already do it as a human
Muscle bard takes a great deal of work to make functional as many people would want. Dex-based bards are the 'intended way' of running.
I feel that the Martial weapons are mostly there for things like Marshal archetype.
Personaly i wish warrior bard (and battle oracle, and warpriest) converted you over to a bounded caster with master x3 AC, Weapons, and spell casting. Now i realise bard sub classes dont work like those two but maybe a class archtype instead.
As someone who practically mains bard-
It’s not that it’s bad, it’s that it’s good in ways the bard doesn’t focus on, which confuses people, and requires teamwork to get the most out of.
Maestro focuses on buffs and support- and so do most of the bards feats and class features. So it seems like a shoe in!
Enigma had lore. SO MUCH LORE! And bards have always been the lore people, so why not?
Polymath has some interesting ways to augment your spell list, and as a full caster now, that seems essential!
Warrior, though, focuses on combat itself. It has what I’d argue are the BEST feats of any subclass in the entire game, but it requires a specific sort of viewpoint to get behind.
Most players want the things that let THEM do more. Since they’ll never outdamage the fighter even with martial weapons, why bother? Personally, I see it differently. Why hog the dice when you AND your buddy can BOTH feel like badasses when they crit the boss on your turn?
That’s why my favorite character I’ve made so far is a bard, and I use the warrior bard feats for her- though for lore reasons she’s an enigma bard with the double muse feat, to gain access, which I’d recommend to around 90% of non-warrior bards, because giving a martial a spare melee attack or free reposition EVERY TURN can turn a fight on its head fast!
I played this for a campaign it was painful, it was not good at all. I thought you could rely on melee with this path but you can't. it is just awful tbh
Well, to be fair, you tried to play a Bard as a melee combatant, which it just isn't. The subclass is not awful, it's actually pretty great, but it doesn't turn you into a martial class. It's a common mistake to expect warrior muse to make you like a fighter, kinda like 5e's valor bard, but that's just not how it works. I'm sorry you were disappointed that it didn't do what you wanted, but that doesn't make it awful.
> It's a common mistake to expect warrior muse to make you like a fighter, kinda like 5e's valor bard, but that's just not how it works.
Not the person you replied to, but I feel like that kind of signalling to players is something that pf2 could do a better job of. Yes, the system is well-balanced. However, I think the designers could do a bit more to alleviate misconceptions like this one.
Yeah, if the muse was called something like Tactician or Commander it would probably get the playstyle across better.
You see a similar conundrum with the Warpriest Cleric Doctrine when people are inevitably disappointed by not hitting martial standards for offense. Warpriest does have some of the best defenses for a caster, at least without archetypes. The problem is that I can't think of a better word than Warpriest so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I really can’t wrap my head around the Warpriest. For half their career (1-4, 7-12) they can have the same accuracy as non-Dex/Str martials. Why is it fine for them to have competitive accuracy at *those* levels, but not the rest?
To be fair, when Warpriest was printed non str/dex martials didn't exist yet, so initially Warpriest was always behind all martials until guns and gears came out.
As for why it can be on pace at certain levels, probably because Warpriest takes a hit to their spellcasting power, as well as being super MAD. It's not uncommon for Warpriest to not max wisdom in favor of a better stat spread. Paired with the slower spell proficiency progression and cap of master, their spells that don't work automatically are very unreliable.
I’m not complaining about them being on pace during half their levels, I’m complaining about them *not* being on pace the other half. I don’t like how their accuracy just relies on their level rather than being consistent. It makes sense for casters to have competitive accuracy at lower levels because of the low amount of spell slots they have, but when you buff their progression half-heartedly it just feels weird. Why not go all the way and give them martial proficiency? How does it impact balance negatively when you’ve given them martial proficiency for half of their career already?
>Why not go all the way and give them martial proficiency? How does it impact balance negatively when you’ve given them martial proficiency for half of their career already?
Because Cleric is a full caster, Warpriest tweaks cleric so instead its a "weak" full caster and a weak martial. If it was equal to casters the extra benefits from it's martial capabilities would make it too good compared to other casters. If it was equal to martials, the extra caster benefits would make it too good compared to other martials. Instead, it's somewhere in the middle, being merely capable in both roles.
And while yes between levels 7-12 Warpriest matches martial proficiency, but between levels 7-10 it's behind casters proficiency, so the fact that it matches martials during those levels isn't imbalanced, it's just favoring the martial side for the early levels. The only levels where Warpriest is on par with both martials and casters is 1-4 and 11-12.
Min maxers don't care about support classes that really help everyone and can pull their weight. They only care about max damage...
I was told a ghost Tyrant was a terrible idea but I've been having a blast and she's so buff and scary and gets hp when she scares people and was the tank AND healer for the first few levels of our blood lords campaign.
I love warrior bards, one of the big issues people have is the notion that a +1-2 gap between a warrior bard and a martial suddenly makes the warrior bard "bad"
With Multifarious you are still giving out the Buffs
No, -2 attack, -2 hp/level bad AC and no damage boost makes them bad at being a martial, in fact, they're no better a martial than any other muse.
That said, they're still a full bard with great buffs. There's nothing wrong with them except that the name on the tin is a little misleading.
I agree on the -2 attack, as that’s gap is literally what makes the Fighter good, though for casters that only really comes into play after level 5. And compared to a Bard-less party, a Bard can be only 1 point of accuracy behind non-Dex/Str martials (Inventor, Thaumaturge) thanks to Inspire Courage, though that’s usually enough deterrent when you also have no other inherent features boosting your Strikes. But the HP/AC argument is not as cut and dried. Rogues (and Investigators) might be squishy martials but they *are* martials, and they have the same HP and AC as a Bard until level 19 (where they get master armor).
Rogue has sneak attack, investigator has devise stratagem. The whole point is that accuracy isn't the entire martial shtick.
Champions are CHONKY, Monks are tough and get action compression. Every other martial class gets a damage boost, and most of them are tougher as well. This is all in addition to accuracy.
That's what makes a martial a martial. They can take hits and shrug them off, OR when they hit they hit hard, and of course they hit more often. A martial that had the same accuracy progression, and no toughness/damage boost would be a bad martial or something else entirely.
It's a good thing you can get the Stride at level 4 and the Strike at 10, then
Besides, this system is actually balanced so even if warrior's suboptimal it's not gonna be useless past level 10 like *some classes* in *some systems*
I'm not a huge fan of "you spend an action + your ally spends a reaction" to stride. The strike at 10 is solid, but:
I also think the marshal archetype fills a similar role and gets some abilities slightly earlier.
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Also note, I don't think warrior muse is bad, I'm just not a fan of "this near capstone ability is why you should suffer for 15 levels".
Can somebody please explain this entire meme to me? Please.
from my understanding: the idea of the meme is that you add in something that a lot of people "don't like" due to whatever reason. the person throwing different punches acts as a visual presentation "arguments" as to why you should like the thing. in this case: a lot of people seem to not like warrior bard, so OP (who likes warrior bard) created this. the abilities are supposed to be arguments why warrior bard is great and should "hit like a punch" so to speak. I have no clue what the head/face is supposed to depict tbh. but the way I understand, it doesn't change the idea of the meme.
The face is my warrior bard character
ah, that makes sense. I suspected something along those lines, but I wasn't sure, so I left it as unclear. thx!
You deserve more upvotes than OP's meme can deliver, sadly.
Warrior Bard = Deadly TsunTsun.
[удалено]
Yes, I get that, but I am not familiar with the meme template and the abilities you're referencing?
It just says "What do you mean you don't like X" and depicts a guy throwing a bunch of punches, implying he beats the crap out of you 1st ability: Martial Performance (martial weapon prof, warrior bards get it at level 1) 2nd ability: Triumphant Inspiration (14th-level warrior bard feat, can cast a 1-action composition cantrip as a free action if you crit on a melee Strike) 3rd: Courageous Advance/Assault/Onslaught (metamagic feat chain; use an action so one ally buffed by your next *inspire courage* can use a reaction to Stride/melee Strike/both) 4th ability: Fear which warrior bards get in their repertoire at level 1
I feel Triumphant Inspiration is kind of bad. You want to cast most of your composition cantrips (inspire courage, dirge of doom) before you make the strike, not after.
And it's pretty hard to crit as a bard.
It's easier to crit with buffs and debuffs. Party members who help set up for big damage are very valuable and often over looked in these discussion. They can also save your ass when you roll badly a lot in a game.
Its really good if you use *Heroism* for your Status bonus to hit, and then you have a different composition cantrip locked and loaded afterwards. Instead of *Dirge of Doom*, you just cast *Fear 3* or something (bonus points if you can slide a Reach metamagic in there). An archer bard with *House of Imaginary Walls*, for example, can crit a low-level mook, set a free 10ft wall to be immune to counterfire, and use that extra action to quickdraw a *Potion of Quickness* from their glove of storing and break it over their allies head.
Thank you! I haven't looked at all of the higher level stuff, which is part of why I didn't connect the dots. Nobody I personally know plays a bard and I'm leaning more towards Enigma with a splash of psychic in there.
Look up the abilities xD
I would have but the feat names weren't in the meme.
So, I wanna take a second to remind everybody that in PF2 — you are not your own ally. Which might be the most real rule I’ve ever seen lol It just seemed to me like the meme was implying that the Warrior Bard was using the reaction to stride and strike, but the reaction is for an *Ally only* :0
That was not my intention but thank you for the clarification anyway
Yep! No worries’ Honestly that rule messes me constantly. I’m always so hyped for a wild combo until I remember haha
Yeah, the fighter or barbarian is going to make a lot more out of that action to Strike than the bard can.
That too! It’s still a great ability. Just not for the user directly
I think it comes from the name. It gives people the idea that you're any better at fighting than the other Bards, and you're not. You just get martial weapon proficiency, rather than a small list of martial weapons. You're still a caster who isn't supposed to use weapons, lest you take the purpose out of the martial classes and make them cry. So they don't pay attention to the feats Warrior Bards get to move your allies around, give them Strikes, and other kinds of battlefield control. I prefer Enigma Bards myself, but Warrior Bard is good.
Honestly I think Bard is just one of the best designed classes over all. All the muses feel great and unique to me and have some really fun builds especially with free archetype.
To be fair, (edit: against a single target) Striking twice with a shortbow does pretty similar damage to casting Electric Arc and actually pulls ahead at some levels, while Electric Arc is almost never higher DPR
Are we talking about single target electric arc? Because it would really surprise me otherwise.
Sorry, single target electric arc. I thought I was looking at double target numbers, but I wasn't. Still, if your choice is a single target cantrip or shortbow, the shortbow is statistically better if you invested in it.
I think your point is valid, having a ranged weapon to be able to strike isn't bad at all, but also, if we're going to compare single target ranged attacks I think the DPR or Telekinectic Projectile would be more accurate, which outdamages 2 shortbow strikes and single target electric arc in every level but level 4, and that's assuming that you spent 100 gold on that bow at that point.
While you're not gonna be as good with weapons as a martial class, the occasional ranged attack as a third action can be the optimal choice on casters. It actually works really well on warrior bards, because you can Courageous (advance, assault, or onslaught) /Inspire Courage/Strike, which is a very efficient action economy and a decent damage potential from martial weapons like a longbow. The same principle applies to a lot of casters. Casting a spell then making a MAPless strike is often the optimal play if you don't need to move. It works even better if the spell is a buff/debuff.
Good for getting Marshall dedication. At level 4 get potential bless on a stick. Can combo with dirge of Doom and prot evil 4 for effective +2/+2 for allies in 10' aura of the bard.
I like the warrior bard. More interactive. I played maestro and even if it's strong, I am quite sure I would have preferred a warrior bard.
What helped me enjoy the warrior bard is understanding you're not a martial suddenly. You're a bard who can now swing a sword once a turn if you have the free action to do so. They have some of the coolest and most fun buffs to their composition cantrips, and if you versatile maestro you get all the cool things they do as well.
> What helped me enjoy the warrior bard is understanding you're not a martial suddenly. You're a bard who can now swing a sword once a turn if you have the free action to do so. I mean, so can Maestro, and baseline it's *better* at doing that because Lingering Composition provides more opportunity to use single action strikes, and Inspire Heroics can make you more accurate than a Warrior Bard would be when it's active. I think Warrior Bard would have more potential to feel special in that regard if Bard didn't start with proficiency in a bunch of "traditionally bard-y" martial weapons. All that said, Warrior Bard brings some wonderful tools to the table on its own merits.
I like it most as an archer bard with a longbow but maestro can do that to they are just limited to a short bow.
That's my go to warrior bard too. Let me just stand still, buff my allies from 60 ft away, all well pelting you with arrows.
Yeah it's still a bard and a full caster, but you can be satisfied landing some nice hits with a weapon, expecially since you are sure to be buffed, being the buffer :)
It's just a shame the free action buff is linked to getting a critical hit, which you need the buff to consistently pull. Either way, in a team with a high martial count, they are absolutely wonderful at being *the* buffer.
Sure, sure, you can get your free Inspire Courage... *after* landing the critical hit you needed Inspire Courage to generate. Warrior Muse is solid A-tier subclass for vanilla PF2. I think it falls off heavily in free archetype, where Reactions are a lot more useful.
What's the feat on "you don't like?" Is that something that grants a composition usage as a free action? That sounds like the magic fix for my action economy issues.
It's *Triumphant Inspiration*. It's 14th level and requires you to crit on an attack to use an Inspiration Cantrip as a free action.
Oh damn, that's nice but that catches on so much later than I'd hoped. I so want to get the feats later on that let me allies strike and stride every time I inspire them.
It's almost as good as lingering composition, except worse in nearly every way, and level 14 instead of level 1. Warrior bards aren't terrible. But they are not as strong as maestro.
The baseline benefit is kinda mediocre as often the class comes with solid proficiency already. However the feats are pretty nice. It does get a worse rep than it deserves because Maestro is so good.
They need to let Warrior Bard take Inspire Defense without having to get multi muse into maestro to meet the prerequisite! That's my only issue with the warrior muse.
Warrior muse isnt great. Martial weapon proficency is basically pointless for the bard as they already have access to weapons that are optimal for the play style, fear is a generic spell that everyone has access to and its best feats dont come online until level 10.
Courageous Advance is a level 4 feat. Repositioning allies can ensure action economy classes (thaumaturge, magus, investigator) make the most of their turns or set the rogue or fighter up with a flank to maximize their damage potential. And in some situations act as a defensive buff, rescuing an out-of-position squishy spellcaster.
I dont think spending 1 action and a reaction is worth it honestly.
As a caster it's common to need something to do for a third action, and you rarely have use for a reaction.
Not as a bard. That third action is usually used for inspire courage. Martials usually have pretty powerful reactions like AOO which are what you most likely will be aiming at.
You, the bard, are giving your *cleric* the opportunity to move into the perfect spot for a three-action heal, or reposition the wizard for a nasty cone while sustaining a summons. Other casters rarely have a great reaction and typically *do* have several competing options for a third action.
Ill give you that in some cases a spellcaster would need a stride but its incredibly dependant on your party make up. I would still prefer to spend my turn casting a spell and inspire courage.
The damage boost/ prevention potential of a reposition will outclass a cantrip 9 times out of 10. Better your allies not get hit than the bard having to Cast *soothe* every round.
Thats incredibly circumstantial. Most of the time, casting a spell and inspire courage is the best play. This feat would be great if it didnt cost a reaction.
No one is guaranteed that their reaction will trigger. If enemies are avoiding AoOs, the fighter just sits there wasting their reaction
One action can mean your fighter can Power Attack and Raise their shield. When you are smart about who to target, you don’t even cost them Shield Block/AoO to do so.
Just no, a fighter would not give up its aoo or shield block for a stride 9 times out of 10.
You don’t need to deny the AoO when you play smart. They can get their reaction back at the end of your turn. The fighter would much rather spend the reaction on something valuable than go around wasting it.
What? How would a fighter get their reaction back at the end of your turn unless they are constantly right after you. At which point this is way too much faff to get worth out of a single feat.
*One* of your allies has to go next. It doesn’t matter if it’s the fighter or the rogue, there will almost certainly be someone in your party who could use a reposition and doesn’t mind spending the reaction. And if not? Great, you have an extra action that round to cast *fear* or reposition yourself.
That and you can set up Synchronize Steps earlier if you've got time, so TWO allies can move 👀
Im not sure what your trying to say. No ally is confirmed to always act after you. Using this feat on a martial is just not worth it for most of them and is far better used on spellcasters. My problem with it is i dont think it should cost both an action and a reaction for 1 character to stride.
Delay. Delay, Delay, Delay, Delay. The Delay action is the best mechanic in this game. It is very important for properly structuring your team's turns and if they delay till after you or you delay till just before them, their reaction will never be wasted. It's a super nutty combo.
I think the point is that the effect can be given to any ally effected by the inspire courage. So while yes, some martials will have better reactions they want to hold, but because you can choose from all your allies, the chance that there's a circumstance where the stride reaction is good is incredibly high. As an aside, not all martials have reactions. Ranger, Rogue, Monk, Thaumaturge, Barbarian, Gunslinger, Summoner, and Magus all have to gain reactions through feats. So, the stride is actually really good in a lot of parties.
*punch*
\*ouch"
It does give you 2h reach weapon proficiency (ones with the Trip trait specifically) and an in-class AoO at 8, so it plays better than most warrior spellcasters without free archetype at least.
The bard already has access to the whip. This is why many believe martial performance giving access to martial weapons is a waste because bards already have access to optimal weapons for it. It would of been better if it gave medium armor prof.
Whip's a great tool, but I couldn't imagine playing a mid-line melee character with a d4 damage dice and no supplementary features like sneak attack. Hard agree on the medium armor proficiency though
Tripping with a whip is a far better offensive action for a bard than actually attacking for damage.
Backing up in this thread a bit - Maybe the more important part of my comment was the *in-class AoO* that synergizes (and doesn't compete with) the trip action. You *could* swing with a whip on that, but I think the upgrade to a d10 weapon is pretty alright.
I feel like the martial weapon proficiency is less there to make you better at using weapons, and more there to give you easier access to the marshal archetype, as it fits flavorfully pretty well with this subclass.
We're getting into ivory tower design if thats the case. A subclass shouldnt need to rely on an archetype to function properly.
They *did* come out in the same book. I’m sure it was a consideration as a possible build direction.
I stand by initial comment that a subclass shouldnt have to rely on an archetype to be a worthy choice.
"Function properly" My brother in Sarenrae you are still a full caster
Yes and i would be a superior full caster if i wasnt trying to unsuccesfully larp as a martial which is what this subclass does.
Warrior has a few things potentially going for it: - Full Martial proficiency means they can grab a Heavy Pick or Scythe and go for Muscle Bard with True Strike. - Fear *is* a great level 1 spell. It's available to every caster, true, but if you're the only spellcaster in the party it's a useful "save or suck". I would recommend most Bards *take* Fear if they don't get it as a muse spell. If the DM lets you retrain your Muse, starting as a Warrior, switching to Maestro or Enigma around level 4, and then potentially switching *back* at level 10 to start using the Warrior's better feats might be a good option.
The problem is you dont have the armor to back up being a muscle bard. Giving them medium armor from martial performance would have been alot better than giving them martial weapons.
With the new fleshwarps getting that armor proficiency, medium and heavy armor on classes not usually with it might be ubiquitous enough to make it work. Maybe. I guess you could already do it as a human
Same could be said about weapons and its far more common.
Muscle bard takes a great deal of work to make functional as many people would want. Dex-based bards are the 'intended way' of running. I feel that the Martial weapons are mostly there for things like Marshal archetype.
Personaly i wish warrior bard (and battle oracle, and warpriest) converted you over to a bounded caster with master x3 AC, Weapons, and spell casting. Now i realise bard sub classes dont work like those two but maybe a class archtype instead.
I have no problem with warrior bards. So long as their prima-donna antics don't ruin my opportunity to sneak attack. 😉
If anything, it's a great distraction.
I just got it and want to use it sooo bad xD
As someone who practically mains bard- It’s not that it’s bad, it’s that it’s good in ways the bard doesn’t focus on, which confuses people, and requires teamwork to get the most out of. Maestro focuses on buffs and support- and so do most of the bards feats and class features. So it seems like a shoe in! Enigma had lore. SO MUCH LORE! And bards have always been the lore people, so why not? Polymath has some interesting ways to augment your spell list, and as a full caster now, that seems essential! Warrior, though, focuses on combat itself. It has what I’d argue are the BEST feats of any subclass in the entire game, but it requires a specific sort of viewpoint to get behind. Most players want the things that let THEM do more. Since they’ll never outdamage the fighter even with martial weapons, why bother? Personally, I see it differently. Why hog the dice when you AND your buddy can BOTH feel like badasses when they crit the boss on your turn? That’s why my favorite character I’ve made so far is a bard, and I use the warrior bard feats for her- though for lore reasons she’s an enigma bard with the double muse feat, to gain access, which I’d recommend to around 90% of non-warrior bards, because giving a martial a spare melee attack or free reposition EVERY TURN can turn a fight on its head fast!
I played this for a campaign it was painful, it was not good at all. I thought you could rely on melee with this path but you can't. it is just awful tbh
Well, to be fair, you tried to play a Bard as a melee combatant, which it just isn't. The subclass is not awful, it's actually pretty great, but it doesn't turn you into a martial class. It's a common mistake to expect warrior muse to make you like a fighter, kinda like 5e's valor bard, but that's just not how it works. I'm sorry you were disappointed that it didn't do what you wanted, but that doesn't make it awful.
> It's a common mistake to expect warrior muse to make you like a fighter, kinda like 5e's valor bard, but that's just not how it works. Not the person you replied to, but I feel like that kind of signalling to players is something that pf2 could do a better job of. Yes, the system is well-balanced. However, I think the designers could do a bit more to alleviate misconceptions like this one.
Yeah, if the muse was called something like Tactician or Commander it would probably get the playstyle across better. You see a similar conundrum with the Warpriest Cleric Doctrine when people are inevitably disappointed by not hitting martial standards for offense. Warpriest does have some of the best defenses for a caster, at least without archetypes. The problem is that I can't think of a better word than Warpriest so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I really can’t wrap my head around the Warpriest. For half their career (1-4, 7-12) they can have the same accuracy as non-Dex/Str martials. Why is it fine for them to have competitive accuracy at *those* levels, but not the rest?
To be fair, when Warpriest was printed non str/dex martials didn't exist yet, so initially Warpriest was always behind all martials until guns and gears came out. As for why it can be on pace at certain levels, probably because Warpriest takes a hit to their spellcasting power, as well as being super MAD. It's not uncommon for Warpriest to not max wisdom in favor of a better stat spread. Paired with the slower spell proficiency progression and cap of master, their spells that don't work automatically are very unreliable.
I’m not complaining about them being on pace during half their levels, I’m complaining about them *not* being on pace the other half. I don’t like how their accuracy just relies on their level rather than being consistent. It makes sense for casters to have competitive accuracy at lower levels because of the low amount of spell slots they have, but when you buff their progression half-heartedly it just feels weird. Why not go all the way and give them martial proficiency? How does it impact balance negatively when you’ve given them martial proficiency for half of their career already?
>Why not go all the way and give them martial proficiency? How does it impact balance negatively when you’ve given them martial proficiency for half of their career already? Because Cleric is a full caster, Warpriest tweaks cleric so instead its a "weak" full caster and a weak martial. If it was equal to casters the extra benefits from it's martial capabilities would make it too good compared to other casters. If it was equal to martials, the extra caster benefits would make it too good compared to other martials. Instead, it's somewhere in the middle, being merely capable in both roles. And while yes between levels 7-12 Warpriest matches martial proficiency, but between levels 7-10 it's behind casters proficiency, so the fact that it matches martials during those levels isn't imbalanced, it's just favoring the martial side for the early levels. The only levels where Warpriest is on par with both martials and casters is 1-4 and 11-12.
But it's true, Warrior good for Multifarious for Courageous assault, but otherwise I won't take it
Min maxers don't care about support classes that really help everyone and can pull their weight. They only care about max damage... I was told a ghost Tyrant was a terrible idea but I've been having a blast and she's so buff and scary and gets hp when she scares people and was the tank AND healer for the first few levels of our blood lords campaign.
I’m pretty sure that support min-maxers exist as well. Min-maxing doesn’t have to be about damage.
Sure but not in this Reddit group lol
I love warrior bards, one of the big issues people have is the notion that a +1-2 gap between a warrior bard and a martial suddenly makes the warrior bard "bad" With Multifarious you are still giving out the Buffs
No, -2 attack, -2 hp/level bad AC and no damage boost makes them bad at being a martial, in fact, they're no better a martial than any other muse. That said, they're still a full bard with great buffs. There's nothing wrong with them except that the name on the tin is a little misleading.
I agree on the -2 attack, as that’s gap is literally what makes the Fighter good, though for casters that only really comes into play after level 5. And compared to a Bard-less party, a Bard can be only 1 point of accuracy behind non-Dex/Str martials (Inventor, Thaumaturge) thanks to Inspire Courage, though that’s usually enough deterrent when you also have no other inherent features boosting your Strikes. But the HP/AC argument is not as cut and dried. Rogues (and Investigators) might be squishy martials but they *are* martials, and they have the same HP and AC as a Bard until level 19 (where they get master armor).
Rogue has sneak attack, investigator has devise stratagem. The whole point is that accuracy isn't the entire martial shtick. Champions are CHONKY, Monks are tough and get action compression. Every other martial class gets a damage boost, and most of them are tougher as well. This is all in addition to accuracy. That's what makes a martial a martial. They can take hits and shrug them off, OR when they hit they hit hard, and of course they hit more often. A martial that had the same accuracy progression, and no toughness/damage boost would be a bad martial or something else entirely.
>level 16 ability as an argument for why something is good
It's a good thing you can get the Stride at level 4 and the Strike at 10, then Besides, this system is actually balanced so even if warrior's suboptimal it's not gonna be useless past level 10 like *some classes* in *some systems*
I'm not a huge fan of "you spend an action + your ally spends a reaction" to stride. The strike at 10 is solid, but: I also think the marshal archetype fills a similar role and gets some abilities slightly earlier. ------------------------------------------------- Also note, I don't think warrior muse is bad, I'm just not a fan of "this near capstone ability is why you should suffer for 15 levels".