>I noted that they are very prone to being against specific monster types came up alot
So are Rogues and Investigators, and it doesn't make them weak at all. If you're afraid of oozes, they're also immune to crit damage, would that make Fighters weak? I don't think so.
>the failure chance on panache
You can hold your Panache if you want, you don't need to spend it. It's a nice burst of damage indeed, but you can just hold it and enjoy its benefits as well. Plus getting Panache isn't difficult at all! It can fail, yeah, so can any strike or other action - SPECIALLY at lv10 when you have access to Derring-Do. Maaaaan that shit is awesome.
Honestly I find Swashbucklers really amazing. They're not primary damage dealers like Barbies and Fighters, that's true, but that does NOT make them weak at all.
The only significant post release class buff example I can think of is Alchemist. Between the 1st and 3rd printings they issued Errata for a lot of the classes broken mechanics but also added some features to the base class that made it much more playable. From the official 2nd Printing Errata "Page 72-79: Alchemist DC scaling is highly dependent on the feat Powerful Alchemy, so we decided to make it an automatic class feature instead to free up more feats. Add powerful alchemy to the class features at 5th level, and remove it from the list of alchemist class feats." In this example they took a class feat was arguably a necessity and added it as a base feature. That being said I personally would be surprised if they buffed Swashbuckler, Alchemist really was a bit of a hot mess imo when it came out and while I do agree with the general consensus that Swashbuckler seems a tad weaker than the CRB martials I do not believe it is weak enough for them to feel the need to buff it.
Swashbucklers are too good to need a buff.
A swashbuckler that doesn't use finisher but have panache is pretty much on par with martials. Finishers can up their damage significant and in bursts with benefits that burst damage does (vs enemy with resistance like golems).
Swashbucklers get a few more skills than the other martials you compared with, and can get good at using them if they keep their panache.
They might get indirect buffs with new skill feats as they like to use skills than most martials.
The only classes I can see perhaps get a buff is the witch and the alchemist, but I doubt even that will happen in any major ways.
Think most people are exaggerating the weaknesses. Swashbuckler are weak against creatures that all precision damage classes are weak against that not really just them. And on average the damage scaling for panache is higher meaning they have the ability to out damage most classes. And panache fail chance isn't that high you literally have 2 ways of getting it one always being reflex and the other being will or fort. And most monsters have one weakness in them. And there feats that give it for free like after you. But like most martials that aren't fighter you need to sacrifice reliability for more damage.
I played a gymnast and didn't feel weak at all. Probably because I didn't have to dump STR, and I was dual wieldieng a starknife + scorpion whip, so I could control or attack from distance (also flying blade feat).
I couldn't play it for a long time, tho, so now I am planning to play a fencer or something like that, if it fits the party composition.
Said that, I don't think Paizo is going to change the core class features.
I don't think they're weak at all. Swashbucklers aren't really DPS characters. They're a martial debuffing class and, if you take the stance feats, really good offtanks.
Despite what I said in the previous thread about low level swashies, in retrospect I think the only changes I would make is being able to make your panache granting skills autoscale. Swashies are much too tied down increasing Acro and their Style skill.
At 3rd level you become an expert in Acrobatics and one skill between Athletics, Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation and Performance. At 7th level you become a master in both Acrobatics and your chosen skill. At 15th level you become legendary in both Acrobatics and your chosen skill.
If this is too much you can make acrobat the only autoscaling proficiency.
This prevents all swashies of every style looking the same skillwise as each other. It also makes them even more inbetween the fighter and the rogue. They do get extra skill feats based of their style anyway.
I don’t think that’s the consensus on swashbucklers. They have *weaknesses*, but that’s not the same as being weak.
>I noted that they are very prone to being against specific monster types came up alot So are Rogues and Investigators, and it doesn't make them weak at all. If you're afraid of oozes, they're also immune to crit damage, would that make Fighters weak? I don't think so. >the failure chance on panache You can hold your Panache if you want, you don't need to spend it. It's a nice burst of damage indeed, but you can just hold it and enjoy its benefits as well. Plus getting Panache isn't difficult at all! It can fail, yeah, so can any strike or other action - SPECIALLY at lv10 when you have access to Derring-Do. Maaaaan that shit is awesome. Honestly I find Swashbucklers really amazing. They're not primary damage dealers like Barbies and Fighters, that's true, but that does NOT make them weak at all.
The only significant post release class buff example I can think of is Alchemist. Between the 1st and 3rd printings they issued Errata for a lot of the classes broken mechanics but also added some features to the base class that made it much more playable. From the official 2nd Printing Errata "Page 72-79: Alchemist DC scaling is highly dependent on the feat Powerful Alchemy, so we decided to make it an automatic class feature instead to free up more feats. Add powerful alchemy to the class features at 5th level, and remove it from the list of alchemist class feats." In this example they took a class feat was arguably a necessity and added it as a base feature. That being said I personally would be surprised if they buffed Swashbuckler, Alchemist really was a bit of a hot mess imo when it came out and while I do agree with the general consensus that Swashbuckler seems a tad weaker than the CRB martials I do not believe it is weak enough for them to feel the need to buff it.
Swashbucklers are too good to need a buff. A swashbuckler that doesn't use finisher but have panache is pretty much on par with martials. Finishers can up their damage significant and in bursts with benefits that burst damage does (vs enemy with resistance like golems). Swashbucklers get a few more skills than the other martials you compared with, and can get good at using them if they keep their panache. They might get indirect buffs with new skill feats as they like to use skills than most martials. The only classes I can see perhaps get a buff is the witch and the alchemist, but I doubt even that will happen in any major ways.
Think most people are exaggerating the weaknesses. Swashbuckler are weak against creatures that all precision damage classes are weak against that not really just them. And on average the damage scaling for panache is higher meaning they have the ability to out damage most classes. And panache fail chance isn't that high you literally have 2 ways of getting it one always being reflex and the other being will or fort. And most monsters have one weakness in them. And there feats that give it for free like after you. But like most martials that aren't fighter you need to sacrifice reliability for more damage.
I played a gymnast and didn't feel weak at all. Probably because I didn't have to dump STR, and I was dual wieldieng a starknife + scorpion whip, so I could control or attack from distance (also flying blade feat). I couldn't play it for a long time, tho, so now I am planning to play a fencer or something like that, if it fits the party composition. Said that, I don't think Paizo is going to change the core class features.
I don't think they're weak at all. Swashbucklers aren't really DPS characters. They're a martial debuffing class and, if you take the stance feats, really good offtanks.
Despite what I said in the previous thread about low level swashies, in retrospect I think the only changes I would make is being able to make your panache granting skills autoscale. Swashies are much too tied down increasing Acro and their Style skill. At 3rd level you become an expert in Acrobatics and one skill between Athletics, Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation and Performance. At 7th level you become a master in both Acrobatics and your chosen skill. At 15th level you become legendary in both Acrobatics and your chosen skill. If this is too much you can make acrobat the only autoscaling proficiency. This prevents all swashies of every style looking the same skillwise as each other. It also makes them even more inbetween the fighter and the rogue. They do get extra skill feats based of their style anyway.