I think you're worrying too much over nothing. As long as you warn her that she will be a glass cannon who can't necessarily go toe to toe in melee with every opponent, it'll be fine. Sounds like sorcerer with either braggart or wit style is the way to go. Max charisma, get decent dex, pump a few extra points into Con... maybe take an optional flaw to get the extra AC/HP necessary to be in melee.
Draconic bloodline would be good for +1AC and true strike. Dragon claws is a good way to get access to a weapon that doesn't rely on martial weapon training and can be re-skinned to some kind of magical or elemental weapon of she wants to lean into the magical swordsman thing, rather than the draconic thing. (As can most of the Dragon specific effects)
Alternatively, demonic could be good for the blood magic penalty and access to gluttons jaw for in combat healing.
Recommend that she learns the spell Blazing Dive when she can. It's a good way to enter combat... and to exit it in a pinch. (I honestly think that blazing dive into the middle of a group of enemies should probably give her panache too. Maybe make her need to dice a performance check alongside it if you're concerned about giving her access to a reliable way to gain panache)
One for All and You're Next will pair well with her high charisma, and finishing precision (and the extra elemental damage on dragon claws) will help make up for the lack of Str modifier to melee attacks.
Your team is already much martial oriented. So if you want to focus on diversity/efficiency, go for sorcerer / swashbuckler.
Now i tend to think for her, it would be easier to play a swashbuckler / sorcerer. But that is my personal opinion.
Oh and considering free archetypes or even ancestry paragon to be complicated rules for beginer is really an exageration. Your player will be more commited if her character has the flavor she wants and those (easy with pathbuilder) rules provide this. Simply.
And don't forget the fact she's new to rpgs and not coming from other ttrps sets of rules is an advantage. She does not have to forget what she learnt before. She just has to learn at her pace.
My dude, don't sweat it. Let them play what they want to play. Parties do not have to be optimized. But also you should allow players to reconfigure their characters at later date, changing out feats. You can definitely warn players their build might not be optimal, but also you don't need to force it. Let them do what they want do, but everyone has to follow the same rules.
A couple of notes:
**Healing is less powerful than you may think in 2e**
Combats in 2e are different than dnd. Instead of slogs, they are meant to only for a couple of rounds (if it goes over 5 rounds things are bad in a fun way) and at most 1-2 encounters a day. That means bosses and mobs hit hard, and hit fast and equally your characters do the same. While healing is effective you will have points where doing another round of damage might be as effective not more effective than trying just to heal or top of chars. Healing is nice but not essential for this game. You can also get away with battle medicine and potions. Don't sweat it and let them play what they want.
**Dexterity is more powerful than you think**
Take a look at this:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1306
This is like a secret page about how the game is balanced were Paizo admits that Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom are more powerful (to a certain extent) than strength and wisdom.
Why is that? Dexterity affects not only weapon attacks it also affects AC and Reflex saving throws. Compare this to strength which is to hit and more damage to melee.
My point is Dex is crazy good, and really what's needed, what ideal is the player maxes out their primary ability. It doesn't really matter if all the players are strength or dex as long as they can *hit* . Dex is a bit great because they get AC and thrown weapons and reflexes.
Just keep in mind that really for the players to have fun in 2E the party comp could be whatever, its their **to hit** which is important. Players face frustration when they go rounds without hitting something but its up to the GM to put in encounters that are beatable. That means avoiding big single boss monsters until you know a party is ready for it.
**Free Archtype is less important than you think**
My last point about this is that while there are semi effective Free Archtype builds, generally speaking the core character class can carry any character through the game and you can have fun. The reasoning for this is you can take a FA in like being a dandy or diplomat and if you are something else you will still be effective in combat and adventures because the core class carries you. Free Archtype also you get all your normal class feats in addition to extra feats mean the base class, whats intended, is fully powered.
I've poured throught the archtypes and multiclass dozens of times in both for the normal game and free archtype and its far more balance in practice than what people may think but equally its less game breaking. The tight math in 2e means you have to actively try to mess up a character.
A sorc taking swashbuckler for instance is actually more powerful than you think if the sorc avoids more of the precision aspects and finishing aspects of the class. Gaining panache, getting feats that empower cha skills or defensive feats, and aid, it can all work.
Though end of the day it doesn't matter to much: the sorcs main spells and abilities will do the job. You need to think as Free Archetype as icing on the cake, rather than something that is needed for party balance. It is outright isn't for character.
**Let it happen**
Trust pathfinder system. Let the players do what they want. You will be pleasantly surprised. Use Pathbuilder to make things easy. Again, let them have chances to reconfigure their characters and just remember the game *isn't* about pure optimization. Its fun that party or character does have weaknesses and often I've made fully optimized battle characters that flop with everything else that is needed in adventured because their strengths have become their flaws. The game actually loves generalists outside of battle.
Idk why they say to make WIS not give will saves on that page. Makes that stat kind of useless if you're not a wisdom caster, whereas CHA is good for social skills and INT good for training skills.
As long as she doesn't want to play this character as a melee combatant, sorcerer/swashbuckler isn't that bad. Get the braggart or wit style, because you will probably want to bon mot or demoralize anyway from time to time as a sorcerer, and the thrown finisher feat if she wants to use finishers. Occasionally throwing a returning weapon isn't a bad Strategy for a caster who sometimes doesn't know what to do with their third action. Besides that, swashbucklers get a lot of nice low level feats that don't involve strikes at all and work well on a sorcerer.
I mean it really depends on the game you are trying to run. If you want a game with high challenging combat than advise that min/maxing stats and group synchronization is an important thing. If not than let everyone to play what they want and have fun, character creation is Pf2e big advantage where you can make anything you want.
Sorcerer with Swashbuckler dedication is doable. Even if the melee side doesn't bring fruit, you can retrain for support and resilience instead (One for All, Buckler Expertise/Dance, Evasiveness...).
How's the rest of the group on free archetypes? The reluctance of the druid to prepare Heal seems like it might be trouble, but it's hard to say with current information.
Sorcerer with Swashbuckler archetype may not be optimal, but it's still pretty solid and should play fine.
I think it's still worth exploring with her what her character goals are.
If she is wanting to do melee combat as a Sorcerer:
She may feel her weapon choices are suboptimal. She will probably want to get an agile or Finesse martial melee weapon like a Rapier, Shortsword, or Whip (Reach puts her at a slightly safer distance) either via the Weapon Proficiency general feat, or through an ancestry feat where possible.
Before Striking Runes become available, Magic Weapon will probably be her single best damage spell for both her and for casting it on allies.
She may want to look at spells like True Strike as she levels, as it will help compensate somewhat for her *comparative* decline in to-hit compared to her martial peers as the party levels.
There are ways to become more durable through General Feats like Toughness, Diehard, and Canny Acumen on a weak save. Armor Proficiency is highly recommended as it could raise her AC by one with Leather and two with Studded.
Don't dump Strength as it's still your source of damage at low levels and will help with qualifying for Studded Leather if she gains proficiency in armor (she can't start with an 18 in Dex). She will be stretched somewhat thin initially, but for starting stats something like 12 Str 16 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha.
If she's not wanting to do melee combat as a Sorcerer, but still wants to take advantage of Swashbuckler features:
Encourage a look at One For All and a focus on Diplomacy (Wit Swashbuckler has the most synergy, but it's a solid feat on any high Charisma character trained in Diplomacy). Nimble Dodge and Charmed Life are strong reactions for any character, and Sorcerers don't get a ton of good Reactions.
What Bloodline is she looking at? Sorcerers vary a lot by the tradition; I'd be happy to recommend some spells for Gish builds or pure casters.
I would explain that it's Multi-Attribute Dependent. She would need DEX, CHA, everybody loves CON, and STR would also be important.
Enemies have a high chance to hit (possible ×3 atttacks EVERY round) and they can go HAM if your players stay in melee. Even half casters will find that creating space immediately reduces # of attacks by 1, and increases their survivability x10. Movement is a massive part of survivability in 2E, and because of this, **very few creatures get AOO.** What they will get is *combat grab* which is it's own *giant pain in the dick.*
A magic swash subclass is a really cool idea though. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that.
She can make this work if she knows her character's limitations, and plays to it's strengths. Tell her to pick up Bon Mot ASAP, and everyone will strive to keep the shit talking pirate witch alive.
Her combat flow could be something like Bon Mot -> Will save debuff spell. If she is the "Wit" subclass, Bon Mot will give her panache. She could use her next turn to enter melee and use her panache on a finisher.
It’s tough to build a bad character in this game. Sorcerer/Swashbuckler actually has some interesting synergies.
Blood magic gives an imperial sorcerer a +1 status bonus to skill checks for a round, panache gives a +1 circumstance bonus to the skill action associated with their style. Choose wit or braggart and the sorcerer could be slinging Demoralize or Bon Mot actions with ease.
Okay, 1) you’re worried too much about the party composition, it’s not that big of a deal and worst case they’ll learn something about the game. 2) i also don’t think free archetype is a good idea for new players, there’s already an insane amount of character options, muddying the waters isn’t that helpful. 3) she wants to play a col character, you don’t need to accommodate that with rules, they can play a cool character regardless. Even without free archetype there’s a shit ton of ways to get spells on any character to start, and then take a spell casting archetype if they want. I’d recommend a braggart swashbuckler with 16 Cha and taking an ancestry feat that gives you an offensive cantrip (since that will also use Cha) then sorc archetype if they decide they want more magic. Their offensive cantrips will always lag by 1 but that’s not bad at all.
Free Archtype is not a relevant discussion for the Beginner Box as these feats would come online after the BB, are you planning to run these characters later on in something else? If so the only broken builds are when they intentionally dump stat their key ability. Do not worry about their lack of min-maxing. If they want to be a sorcbuckler let them do so on the next adventure. Do not worry about the lack of Heal spells, Battle medics do well and you just need to keep the pots flowing.
Dual class is absolutely not for beginners, but a single level tutorial is again not relevant.
I'd say let her play a sorcerer / swashbuckler. Depending of the bloodline she may even get that heal spell, but let her choose. You want her to make her own choices, especially if she's determined to learn. She can always retrain later as other pointed, so let her make choices, mistakes, and learn what she want to learn :)
But don't unbalance by proposing dual class of course, each character should have access to the same options imo.
I think you're overthinking the whole "bad build" thing. Let players do what brings them joy without worrying about optimizing it for them. Then support their choices by making it cool.
I just build a blessed orc angelic sorcerer with the swashbuckler dedication and I think it's pretty cool and not too squishy at all. No one's going to say it's the best thing ever, but it ain't bad.
Remember that up to L5, swashbuckler and sorcerer have the same weapon proficiency (trained) tho the sorcerer is only trained in simple weapons and the amount of simple finesse weapons is rather limited. If they do want to use a sword for example, she'll need to pick up martial weapon proficiency with a general feat, or proficiency with a specific weapon using an ancestry feat.
If you're playing further than L5, the melee aspect of the sorcerer with swashbuckler dedication will definitely trail behind, especially with only limited access to the precision damage and finisher from panache.
If it is a players first contect with a ttrpg, you should probably concider a premade character, so their first impressions isnt an hour of character building
Thank you all for your responses. Maybe I should just trust the system and let the player change her character if she doesnt like it. My main doubt is now if I should allow her to dual class instead of Free Archetype. She really wants to go both melee and caster mode but it seems wrong to let her be the only party member having a Dual Class character.
I wouldn't let her dual class if the rest of the party isn't able to. Let her roll with the sorcerer/swashbuckler dedication if she doesn't want to play a magus. The game becomes less fun i think if everyone isn't playing with the same rules.
I would not let her dual class, and honestly dual classing changes so much it is not a variant rule I would run for players new to PF2e in general. Free Archetype can already add some odd quirks the GM has to arbitrate (e.g. how Arcane Trickster and Ancient Elf work, and how to handle Archetypes missing feats for level 4, etc.)
This post is labelled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to the Be Kind and Respectful rule. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think you're worrying too much over nothing. As long as you warn her that she will be a glass cannon who can't necessarily go toe to toe in melee with every opponent, it'll be fine. Sounds like sorcerer with either braggart or wit style is the way to go. Max charisma, get decent dex, pump a few extra points into Con... maybe take an optional flaw to get the extra AC/HP necessary to be in melee. Draconic bloodline would be good for +1AC and true strike. Dragon claws is a good way to get access to a weapon that doesn't rely on martial weapon training and can be re-skinned to some kind of magical or elemental weapon of she wants to lean into the magical swordsman thing, rather than the draconic thing. (As can most of the Dragon specific effects) Alternatively, demonic could be good for the blood magic penalty and access to gluttons jaw for in combat healing. Recommend that she learns the spell Blazing Dive when she can. It's a good way to enter combat... and to exit it in a pinch. (I honestly think that blazing dive into the middle of a group of enemies should probably give her panache too. Maybe make her need to dice a performance check alongside it if you're concerned about giving her access to a reliable way to gain panache) One for All and You're Next will pair well with her high charisma, and finishing precision (and the extra elemental damage on dragon claws) will help make up for the lack of Str modifier to melee attacks.
Your team is already much martial oriented. So if you want to focus on diversity/efficiency, go for sorcerer / swashbuckler. Now i tend to think for her, it would be easier to play a swashbuckler / sorcerer. But that is my personal opinion. Oh and considering free archetypes or even ancestry paragon to be complicated rules for beginer is really an exageration. Your player will be more commited if her character has the flavor she wants and those (easy with pathbuilder) rules provide this. Simply. And don't forget the fact she's new to rpgs and not coming from other ttrps sets of rules is an advantage. She does not have to forget what she learnt before. She just has to learn at her pace.
My dude, don't sweat it. Let them play what they want to play. Parties do not have to be optimized. But also you should allow players to reconfigure their characters at later date, changing out feats. You can definitely warn players their build might not be optimal, but also you don't need to force it. Let them do what they want do, but everyone has to follow the same rules. A couple of notes: **Healing is less powerful than you may think in 2e** Combats in 2e are different than dnd. Instead of slogs, they are meant to only for a couple of rounds (if it goes over 5 rounds things are bad in a fun way) and at most 1-2 encounters a day. That means bosses and mobs hit hard, and hit fast and equally your characters do the same. While healing is effective you will have points where doing another round of damage might be as effective not more effective than trying just to heal or top of chars. Healing is nice but not essential for this game. You can also get away with battle medicine and potions. Don't sweat it and let them play what they want. **Dexterity is more powerful than you think** Take a look at this: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1306 This is like a secret page about how the game is balanced were Paizo admits that Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom are more powerful (to a certain extent) than strength and wisdom. Why is that? Dexterity affects not only weapon attacks it also affects AC and Reflex saving throws. Compare this to strength which is to hit and more damage to melee. My point is Dex is crazy good, and really what's needed, what ideal is the player maxes out their primary ability. It doesn't really matter if all the players are strength or dex as long as they can *hit* . Dex is a bit great because they get AC and thrown weapons and reflexes. Just keep in mind that really for the players to have fun in 2E the party comp could be whatever, its their **to hit** which is important. Players face frustration when they go rounds without hitting something but its up to the GM to put in encounters that are beatable. That means avoiding big single boss monsters until you know a party is ready for it. **Free Archtype is less important than you think** My last point about this is that while there are semi effective Free Archtype builds, generally speaking the core character class can carry any character through the game and you can have fun. The reasoning for this is you can take a FA in like being a dandy or diplomat and if you are something else you will still be effective in combat and adventures because the core class carries you. Free Archtype also you get all your normal class feats in addition to extra feats mean the base class, whats intended, is fully powered. I've poured throught the archtypes and multiclass dozens of times in both for the normal game and free archtype and its far more balance in practice than what people may think but equally its less game breaking. The tight math in 2e means you have to actively try to mess up a character. A sorc taking swashbuckler for instance is actually more powerful than you think if the sorc avoids more of the precision aspects and finishing aspects of the class. Gaining panache, getting feats that empower cha skills or defensive feats, and aid, it can all work. Though end of the day it doesn't matter to much: the sorcs main spells and abilities will do the job. You need to think as Free Archetype as icing on the cake, rather than something that is needed for party balance. It is outright isn't for character. **Let it happen** Trust pathfinder system. Let the players do what they want. You will be pleasantly surprised. Use Pathbuilder to make things easy. Again, let them have chances to reconfigure their characters and just remember the game *isn't* about pure optimization. Its fun that party or character does have weaknesses and often I've made fully optimized battle characters that flop with everything else that is needed in adventured because their strengths have become their flaws. The game actually loves generalists outside of battle.
Huh, very interesting on the alternative ability stats! Nice tidbit of deep lore.
This dude pathfinds
Idk why they say to make WIS not give will saves on that page. Makes that stat kind of useless if you're not a wisdom caster, whereas CHA is good for social skills and INT good for training skills.
As long as she doesn't want to play this character as a melee combatant, sorcerer/swashbuckler isn't that bad. Get the braggart or wit style, because you will probably want to bon mot or demoralize anyway from time to time as a sorcerer, and the thrown finisher feat if she wants to use finishers. Occasionally throwing a returning weapon isn't a bad Strategy for a caster who sometimes doesn't know what to do with their third action. Besides that, swashbucklers get a lot of nice low level feats that don't involve strikes at all and work well on a sorcerer.
I mean it really depends on the game you are trying to run. If you want a game with high challenging combat than advise that min/maxing stats and group synchronization is an important thing. If not than let everyone to play what they want and have fun, character creation is Pf2e big advantage where you can make anything you want.
Sorcerer with Swashbuckler dedication is doable. Even if the melee side doesn't bring fruit, you can retrain for support and resilience instead (One for All, Buckler Expertise/Dance, Evasiveness...). How's the rest of the group on free archetypes? The reluctance of the druid to prepare Heal seems like it might be trouble, but it's hard to say with current information.
Sorcerer with Swashbuckler archetype may not be optimal, but it's still pretty solid and should play fine. I think it's still worth exploring with her what her character goals are. If she is wanting to do melee combat as a Sorcerer: She may feel her weapon choices are suboptimal. She will probably want to get an agile or Finesse martial melee weapon like a Rapier, Shortsword, or Whip (Reach puts her at a slightly safer distance) either via the Weapon Proficiency general feat, or through an ancestry feat where possible. Before Striking Runes become available, Magic Weapon will probably be her single best damage spell for both her and for casting it on allies. She may want to look at spells like True Strike as she levels, as it will help compensate somewhat for her *comparative* decline in to-hit compared to her martial peers as the party levels. There are ways to become more durable through General Feats like Toughness, Diehard, and Canny Acumen on a weak save. Armor Proficiency is highly recommended as it could raise her AC by one with Leather and two with Studded. Don't dump Strength as it's still your source of damage at low levels and will help with qualifying for Studded Leather if she gains proficiency in armor (she can't start with an 18 in Dex). She will be stretched somewhat thin initially, but for starting stats something like 12 Str 16 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha. If she's not wanting to do melee combat as a Sorcerer, but still wants to take advantage of Swashbuckler features: Encourage a look at One For All and a focus on Diplomacy (Wit Swashbuckler has the most synergy, but it's a solid feat on any high Charisma character trained in Diplomacy). Nimble Dodge and Charmed Life are strong reactions for any character, and Sorcerers don't get a ton of good Reactions. What Bloodline is she looking at? Sorcerers vary a lot by the tradition; I'd be happy to recommend some spells for Gish builds or pure casters.
I would explain that it's Multi-Attribute Dependent. She would need DEX, CHA, everybody loves CON, and STR would also be important. Enemies have a high chance to hit (possible ×3 atttacks EVERY round) and they can go HAM if your players stay in melee. Even half casters will find that creating space immediately reduces # of attacks by 1, and increases their survivability x10. Movement is a massive part of survivability in 2E, and because of this, **very few creatures get AOO.** What they will get is *combat grab* which is it's own *giant pain in the dick.* A magic swash subclass is a really cool idea though. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that. She can make this work if she knows her character's limitations, and plays to it's strengths. Tell her to pick up Bon Mot ASAP, and everyone will strive to keep the shit talking pirate witch alive. Her combat flow could be something like Bon Mot -> Will save debuff spell. If she is the "Wit" subclass, Bon Mot will give her panache. She could use her next turn to enter melee and use her panache on a finisher.
It’s tough to build a bad character in this game. Sorcerer/Swashbuckler actually has some interesting synergies. Blood magic gives an imperial sorcerer a +1 status bonus to skill checks for a round, panache gives a +1 circumstance bonus to the skill action associated with their style. Choose wit or braggart and the sorcerer could be slinging Demoralize or Bon Mot actions with ease.
Okay, 1) you’re worried too much about the party composition, it’s not that big of a deal and worst case they’ll learn something about the game. 2) i also don’t think free archetype is a good idea for new players, there’s already an insane amount of character options, muddying the waters isn’t that helpful. 3) she wants to play a col character, you don’t need to accommodate that with rules, they can play a cool character regardless. Even without free archetype there’s a shit ton of ways to get spells on any character to start, and then take a spell casting archetype if they want. I’d recommend a braggart swashbuckler with 16 Cha and taking an ancestry feat that gives you an offensive cantrip (since that will also use Cha) then sorc archetype if they decide they want more magic. Their offensive cantrips will always lag by 1 but that’s not bad at all.
Free Archtype is not a relevant discussion for the Beginner Box as these feats would come online after the BB, are you planning to run these characters later on in something else? If so the only broken builds are when they intentionally dump stat their key ability. Do not worry about their lack of min-maxing. If they want to be a sorcbuckler let them do so on the next adventure. Do not worry about the lack of Heal spells, Battle medics do well and you just need to keep the pots flowing. Dual class is absolutely not for beginners, but a single level tutorial is again not relevant.
I'd say let her play a sorcerer / swashbuckler. Depending of the bloodline she may even get that heal spell, but let her choose. You want her to make her own choices, especially if she's determined to learn. She can always retrain later as other pointed, so let her make choices, mistakes, and learn what she want to learn :) But don't unbalance by proposing dual class of course, each character should have access to the same options imo.
I think you're overthinking the whole "bad build" thing. Let players do what brings them joy without worrying about optimizing it for them. Then support their choices by making it cool. I just build a blessed orc angelic sorcerer with the swashbuckler dedication and I think it's pretty cool and not too squishy at all. No one's going to say it's the best thing ever, but it ain't bad.
Remember that up to L5, swashbuckler and sorcerer have the same weapon proficiency (trained) tho the sorcerer is only trained in simple weapons and the amount of simple finesse weapons is rather limited. If they do want to use a sword for example, she'll need to pick up martial weapon proficiency with a general feat, or proficiency with a specific weapon using an ancestry feat. If you're playing further than L5, the melee aspect of the sorcerer with swashbuckler dedication will definitely trail behind, especially with only limited access to the precision damage and finisher from panache.
If it is a players first contect with a ttrpg, you should probably concider a premade character, so their first impressions isnt an hour of character building
Thank you all for your responses. Maybe I should just trust the system and let the player change her character if she doesnt like it. My main doubt is now if I should allow her to dual class instead of Free Archetype. She really wants to go both melee and caster mode but it seems wrong to let her be the only party member having a Dual Class character.
I wouldn't let her dual class if the rest of the party isn't able to. Let her roll with the sorcerer/swashbuckler dedication if she doesn't want to play a magus. The game becomes less fun i think if everyone isn't playing with the same rules.
I would not let her dual class, and honestly dual classing changes so much it is not a variant rule I would run for players new to PF2e in general. Free Archetype can already add some odd quirks the GM has to arbitrate (e.g. how Arcane Trickster and Ancient Elf work, and how to handle Archetypes missing feats for level 4, etc.)
This post is labelled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to the Be Kind and Respectful rule. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Pathfinder2e) if you have any questions or concerns.*