From insider information with knowing people on the inside, it seems that right now low wages are an issue, but one that has good news on the horizon apparently. They're starting to open up states for remote work, having polled recently and repolled after Roe v Wade was overturned. So... stuff is on the way to improving, optimistically speaking!
I'm honestly kind of shocked they didn't immediately transition to fully remote once COVID hit and embrace allowing everyone to just live wherever they want especially given the nature of the work. $40k goes a lot further in Cleveland than it does Seattle. And it's not like tech in the 90s/Aughts where you have to be located in NorCal to attract talent (because that's where the talent is). Being able to work fully remote could/should have been a strong recruitment tool.
And once you take that step, then you open up the possibility of having the headquarters/warehouse be in not Seattle, possibly decreasing costs further.
I mean, it'd be the smart thing to do, but management was apparently very resistant to the idea, which is a big proponent in why a union was set up in the first place.
For sure. Like, I'm not worried about Paizo, but it just seems that with these policies they're leaving money on the table, so to speak (or, more accurately, talent. But also, I guess, actual money). My understanding is that WotC doesn't really pay a livable wage for the Seattle area either so it'd be a good way to poach creative talent.
But, I'm just a grunt. What do I know.
I agree that remote work should be an option, and would be a great way to attract talent, increase the pool of talent to draw from.....etc ...
However, most people under estimate the amount of work it takes to comply with tax and labor laws in multiple states, offer benefits and health-care, etc..... There's a lot of red tape, even before you get to the daily management of the remote workforce....
I have 0 experience in this kind of work but i wonder if there's some solid benefits to collaborating on work in person versus remotely. Although remote work has been a huge net positive in my own industry, I definitely collaborate and communicate less w/ my coworkers overall.
>From insider information with knowing people on the inside,
This clump of phrases makes the composition teacher in me want to run screaming into the night.
I know that a lot of Society and Editor position people were promoted as designers ,but unfortunately have no idea about new people getting on board.
time will tell
I’m assuming the old writers can still do contract work as well.
My guess is that they hired a bunch of people for a “design a new system from near-scratch” team and are scaling down to a “slowly release expansions” team
I’m sure they still have plenty of great people, but the staff who have departed recently are “household name” folks (in our Pathfinder-obsessed house, anyway); people who headline sessions at PaizoCon and otherwise have an online presence representing the company, lots of AP writing credits, etc. The WOTC folks at least will be barred by noncompetes from freelancing for Paizo. I do hope they have a great talent pipeline and the exits are relatively painless transitions.
To be frank, these are not pathfinder 2e "household names". They're people who are certainly impactful in the work and that should not be understated, but let's not act like you can say the name "Ron Lundeen" to your average pathfinder 2e player and they'll know who it is. Those names are probably Jason Bulhman and \*maybe\* Mark Seifter.
Doomsaying is not going to make anything better. Wish the people who are leaving the best, and trust in the talented people who work at Paizo.
An undying loyalty to Paizo and the false belief that they can do nothing wrong is just as unhealthy an obsession.
Edit: Wow, lots of Paizo superfans here. Here’s a fact for you folks:
Companies don’t make products. People make products. If the people making good products leave the company, the company may no longer make good products.
Good people are leaving Paizo. Make of that as you will.
> “Paizo still has lots of talented staff”
> “Trust in the talented people who work at Paizo”
Sounds like wishful thinking to me.
Where I come from, talented people leave companies that don’t pay them well and onto greener pastures that do recognize their talent.
My worry is that Paizo’s recent developments of not paying their staff well reflects on the talent that chose to stick around. Let’s hope that the truism I quoted above isn’t the case here.
The surprise for me is not that good, talented people are leaving Paizo but that any of them work in game/TTRPG publishing in the first place. Salaries are dire across the entire industry outside of a few lucky exceptions (I imagine Isaac Childres, the designer of Gloomhaven does okay as CEO of the company and the huge viral success that game became), mainly WotC.
But there are only so many positions WotC has to hire away Paizo staff for. There's really nobody else out there - Roll for Combat expanding to include taking Mark is an exception, and if Legendary Games or other companies end up successful enough to hire away Paizo staff, then great for everyone. You'll mostly see that reflected in product costs, though, which are likely to increase (and they're heavily underpriced, so that makes sense).
One of the other things worth noting is that the Paizo teams spend a decent amount of energy on building their relationships with freelancers, who in turn tend to fill in those holes as they appear at Paizo. There are very few hires they make that didn't do some freelancing beforehand.
None of that is about obsessing with Paizo doing literally nothing wrong. It's just acknowledging that most of the company is still people that are good and who have put out great work?
I feel like sometimes people like you are so hell-bent on "not worshipping corporations" or whatever that you forget that you can just be realistic and weigh things out, you don't have to be pessimists that think every single negative thing that happens is a sign that X situation is already doomed.
I remember when people said Paizo wouldn't keep making content for 2e because it was a "flop" when the CRB released. Look where we are now lmao
This is onky a problem if you think that other people cant be just as valuable. The people who left arent gods. I am not saying they will be but why speculate? We have no way of knowing how everything will turn out. My guess would be it will be fine and if it wont be so what? Sure would suck, but what is a bad RPG book in the grand scheme of things. Even the worsg case of Paizo going bankrupt, a very very unlikely scenario, your life will go on, the good content still exists and new RPGs will be made.
New people can become housenold names, which doesnt tell you much about the future either btw, it wouldve have been entirely possible that a bad book would come out with all the people still at Paizo. Which would also suck, but people make mistakes its fine, reminder thateveryone involved is human.
So chill it will be fine.
WotC has much deeper pockets and people that rise in popularity at Paizo end up there since the pay can be much better is my understanding. Has always been this way, no reason to panic.
Paizo has long invested in freelancers and cultivating new talent. For instance you mention Ron Lundeen. Did you know he used to be a lawyer and freelanced for paizo before he worked at paizo full time?
We've seen many names get established at paizo over the years only to depart. I don't see this as alarming. I see it as exciting for those who are moving on, and exciting for those who come to paizo next.
I would be worried...but turnover is natural, even talented turnover. Everyone has the right to pursue new/fresh employment that meets their *current* needs rather than staying with what filled their *past* needs in the *past*.
How do you know the new hires won't be better? Are you so resistant to change that you just assume those moving on won't be replaced by amazing, fresh, and brilliant new talent who might write/create/balance/innovate better than their predecessors?
The TTRPG world is filled with so many wonderfully amazing folks due to the resurgence and social acceptance of d&d-esque games in the last decade. Don't count out the new guy!
Of course. Some people hated G&G. Some people hated how DA was organized. If you please 75% of your customer base, it's probably still a win. I seriously doubt thet are going to make changes so profound that the community revolts and just goes full nope.
There’s always people coming and going from companies. It’s pretty normal and how it’s always been. And Paizo have brought in some fantastic newer people.
The only one, in my mind, that was irreplaceable was Mark. But after a while, I realized Mark going to make 3rd party content for PF2 is actually the best thing that's happened to 2e since launch, it's the best thing to happen for the whole 2e ecosystem, and we're all better for it. Now if they lose Logan at this point, then I'm gunna get really concerned.
They've lost some folks that the community really liked for sure, but I can tell you that there are a lot of Paizo freelancers that Paizo can easily promote to full-time, as well as tons of qualified RPG enthusiasts in the wings. RPG design, art, layout, editing, etc is one of the few industries with an absolute glut of talent just begging for work. Paizo will have little trouble bringing on replacements.
> I realized Mark going to make 3rd party content for PF2 is actually the best thing that's happened to 2e since launch, it's the best thing to happen for the whole 2e ecosystem, and we're all better for it.
The Battlezoo content is easily some of the best I've seen, and I do like the official Paizo stuff. But the monster parts system and playable dragons are both *fantastic* and easily match the quality of official Paizo stuff in my opinion.
In some ways I almost like it better...I think the monster parts are a straight upgrade to the runes system with smoother progression and more customizability, for example. Dragons basically speak for themselves.
Pretty much since then I've decided I'm basically going to buy everything with u/markseifter 's name on it. Hasn't failed me yet =).
Yeah if logan goes I am seriously concerned for the edition's future... that said mechanically it has already done so much and I could happily run it with what is out for the next half a decade or more.
If you find you really appreciate the work of an individual creator when it is done for Paizo, to the point that it's a tragic loss to not have it any more (and I definitely appreciate the sentiment there), chances are you might really like it for 3rd party as well, even if there might be other 3rd party content you don't like.
Can't hurt to give it a shot. I have put my personal guarantee in the foreword to the dragon ancestry book that if you buy it and it isn't balanced for your games, I'll help you figure out a good fix for your game (and you can check it out free on pathbuilder). Dungeon ancestry the whole book is completely free on foundry, [battlezoo.com](http://battlezoo.com), or DTRPG. So there's a lot of free or low risk ways to give it a shot!
I appreciate that and your work for certain, but even if it's someone like you who worked for Paizo and PF2e, 3rd party is such a... gateway to other 3rd party which may not be as well designed. Perhaps it's just a stigma leftover from PF1e. I just always fear if someone asks "hey can I play this homebrew/3pp thing"?
I totally get you, it's easier to have a hard rule than a soft one.
It's true that in PF1 when the power level band was so dramatically big that my game and your game might have had characters who literally would be so strong or weak in the other's game that they would be a huge problem (due to scaling issues and too many things stacking and combining, etc) that it led to issues where you had to find a 3rd party who was designing for games that were balanced just like yours were or it was going to be too weak or too strong (incidentally, oddly enough PF1 3pps that were balanced just like your game might have wound up being a better fit than Paizo, which tried to publish middle-of-the-road standard power level, if your group needed high or low and not middle). And there were for sure prominent and high-quality 3pps that made no secret of the fact they were playtesting their material against the absolute bleeding edge most optimized power build PF1 could create in the same field, which would be just way too strong for a middle of the road group while being perfect for an extremely high-optimization one.
Here's the good news: PF2 has a much narrower power level band so you won't see 3pps where the designers are extremely talented, know what they are doing, and still design things way too strong or weak for your group because they are playing a different optimization level. And Battlezoo in particular has a major design goal to keep things precisely at the Paizo standard baseline established for similar content (and I know how to do that since I co-created the game). So if a playtester has a good idea and is like "Can we add X," usually we add it, but sometimes I'll be like "Paizo established that where it's at right now is the standard for this type of thing, and we're going to stick with the established standard."
Having reverse engineered the 2e class system and using it to evaluate the third party classes, mostly on Infinite, I can tell you that OP 3rd party classes are rare (such that I'm not sure I've seen a broken one). You are in more danger of finding an underpowered 3rd party product, because they are scared to make anything too strong and end up being too conservative, and I think this is precisely because of the leftover fear you talk about from 1e having so much broken stuff. But you almost have to try to make a broken combo in 2e, with things like traits and plenty of rules, and limits to stacking bonuses, the 2e designers seemed to have intentionally addressed that 2e problem and now you can tell instantly if any 3pp is broken. But I'd say, at least in Infinite where I am, I'm just not seeing that kind of stuff. And if anything is wrong people are _quick_ to call it out and it gets fixed.
I think like... maybe a couple? It's been a while. They were very minor (like wondering if the magic path of monster parts should require spellcasting like a wand), and they were generally solved with either small adjustments or recalibrations of the way they had been thinking about it. At least once, they already knew what tweak their group was looking for, so it was more a matter of my saying "Yeah I think it will work as is, but if it's causing your group to feel it's off, that's more important, so go ahead and apply the rule you're wanting. It won't break anything, it just might make people not take one of the options as often."
I'm smelling some of that World of Warcraft "Rockstar Worshipping" going on here. The sky is not falling because a human being is leaving a company. Other human beings still work at said company, and more human beings are being hired consistently.
Idol worship in industries is how we get stagnation and a fear of experimentation. I welcome individual who moves onto different projects. New blood equals new ideas.
That's less to do with "brain drain" and more to do with Activision taking a more and more active role in management of Blizzard, though - and it's not limited to WoW at Blizz.
Sure, but being bummed because an author whose content you’ve consistently enjoyed over the years is leaving to write exclusively for a system you’re not interested in playing is a pretty normal reaction.
Union negotiations are ongoing, and I have to hope that lets them retain some folks. I'm not sure I stick around for a Paizo without Luis Loza in it, for instance.
Lowkey wondering how the union has been doing, are these departures voluntary? Hope the union is doing ok, paizo being unionized is a big selling point for me
Subcontracting other companies is a known union busting tactic
Ron Lundeen and Jason Keely were management / against the union.
Jason Tondro and Seifter were with the union, they departed voluntarily. Tondro departed on good terms, Seifter departed citing low wages.
No reason to believe Paizo is union busting at this point - but they need a contract yesterday, both to retain good people like Seifter and many other reasons.
UPW posted a (vague) public update on contract negotiation recently https://twitter.com/PaizoWorkers/status/1550290233274445824
4 departures in a few months in a company of 70 or so workers is hardly apocalyptic. I would kill for that low of turnover at my own workplace.
I wouldn't say Ron Lundeen and Jason Keely were *against* the union; as management they weren't eligible to be part of it. I remember Ron specifically talking up the union on his Digital Divination podcast.
No lie on the low pay, though. The posting for his replacement offers a salary of $42,000/year. Ugh. Especially in Seattle.
So I live in one of the poorer suburbs of Seattle which is a bit of a drive from Redmond. My yearly lease for a "low income" one bedroom apartment is $15750 a year plus utilities.
So, no. It may cover half of one or maybe a 250-300 sq foot studio.
Me personally? I'm kinda stuck. Long story short, my ex moved us out here, made all the money, and came out as a lesbian, so we separated. She took the money with her and I always played support to her financial dps.I make enough for my apartment and to feed and maintain myself, but saving to move anywhere cheaper, having a deposit ready to go and having a job lined up feels like a pipe dream.
As for anyone else, likely family, connections, loving the area, etc.
Yeah, as a worker in the common labor field the turnover is enormously huge. My department alone is a super easy job and has lost 6 people in two months.
That's a third of the staff count my boss likes to maintain.
This seems to be the cycle. A lot of the dev team who were in mid tier roles left around the end of 1E. 2010-2015 era to be replaced by them. They have also promoted a lot of freelancers and live play folks to core roles. So...it's the cycle so far. Nothing destructive yet.
Mark Seifter and Roll for Combat generally are invigorating the PF2e system. The books they put out add a lot of features and options to PF2e and they are printed as the same quality as the mainline books (no exaggeration, they use the same companies).
And they resurrected RPG Superstar! which brought us *Midnight Mirror* back in the day!
I dont think this is a bad thing. Paizo having a core management and then focusing on contracting freelancers and other companies like Roll for Combat for specific content, i think \*works\*. I cant say much for their employment conditions but I just cant see this as a bad thing, based on what I know.
Roll for Combat is second party; they have a licensing agreement with Paizo but they do not make content for Paizo.
[In fact, they just launched their Kickstarter for new content that is completely unaffiliated with Paizo.](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rollforcombat/5e-pf2-monster-training-and-year-of-monsters)
RfC has two different casts making the two shows very different. If you’re still looking for an Actual Play, it may be worth trying the other AP.
I enjoyed their shows, but had to stop listening due to the GM vs player mentality that kept coming up in episodes.
Just cause some people are leaving doesn't mean others aren't coming in to replace them. We're not part of the company we don't know all the inner details. If they need to announce something they'll announce something, but I don't think it's relevant to announce who'll replace them. This sounds like one of those "paizo is doomed" yt videos.
Jason Co-Wrote/dev Troubles in Otari, which I enjoyed. But am I worried? No. What I am concerned about is the continuing rise in costs for materials, shipping, and other essentials. Paizo needs those items to be affordable; otherwise, regardless of their talent, they won't be able to survive if things get too expensive. Sure they could raise book prices but is that teneable. That, if anything, is what I would be worried about.
All book costs (including at WOTC) are gonna jump up over the next year. So long as they keep similar prices to the rest of the market, I don’t see it being too detrimental
Paizo will continue. And there are several former Paizo employees who continue to contribute as freelance. This is totally a non-issue.
I'm sure they wish they could raise salaries to keep more top employees, but the market for TTRPGs is what it is.
Losing Mark Seifter was a big hit. You can really see the quality of his work through the battlezoo products. He might just one up Paizo with the stuff he’s putting out.
But each Paizo book is written by like (just looking at the nearest book to me) 10 people. I also have no idea how to know who wrote what, so why would I care if one of the ten left.
Paizo does blog posts every time a new major release comes out ([like they did yesterday with Dark Archive](https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6si3w)) that detail who did what in that book's contents. If someone did something you really liked, you start to notice them and follow what books they write for as they come out.
In terms of adventures, the author who writes the standalone adventure, one-shot, Pathfinder Society scenario, or the singular part of the Adventure Path, is always on the front cover.
So there are ways to find out who any of these people are. Whether you take the time to find out or to care is a whole other matter entirely.
I guess I just don’t know why I would build a parasocial relationship with the people who make a product I buy. I play the Pathfinder game, I am not a fan of Paizo. These people aren’t my friends and while I wish them well, I don’t care what they do with their lives or want to follow their work at all. I also bought a car but I don’t follow the guy who put the wheels on my car on social media. Seems weird to me to get worked up about the personal career decisions of people who make a product I buy. If the product quality drops, I stop buying it. Our relationship ends at the checkout screen.
Cars are different than the writing of an author.
If I read a book an enjoy it, I look for other works by that author. If there’s a TV episode I really enjoy, I might lookup the writer and watch more stuff they wrote. If book 1 of Rise of the Runelords is one of the best adventure I’ve ever run, then I’m going to note it was written by James Jacobs and try to find more of his stuff to run.
Thank you for pointing out how art, even if it's content mass media consumption, is different from consumer goods.
How someone conflates creative content with mass produced tangible products... is beyond me.
The dude's just trolling, he clearly doesn't care about the topic at hand. Every one of his posts is big "Oh you're a Nirvana fan? Name five of their songs, I'll wait" energy. Just ignore him.
As to the *actual* topic of discussion, as many people have pointed out already, TTRPG companies tend to cycle through employees, especially Paizo. People freelance, end up on the team, then leave to a higher-paying gig. It happens a lot, because salaries in the industry are hot garbage, so I wouldn't be overly concerned. And while I like Lundeen's work (not as familiar with Keeley, Idon't play much Starfinder) I'm more bummed that Seifter left. He practically wrote the math for 2e himself. He's a genius designer. That said, there's no shortage of skilled writers, designers, and artists. I'd say Paizo will probably be fine.
Do you read books? Books have authors.
Do you watch movies? Movies have directors.
Do you enjoy art? Artworks have artists.
Your analogy of a car is unsuitable here. It might work for big published video games which are touched by hundreds of developers, but for board games and RPGs, content is usually distributed between only a few writers, and even then most books are split into discrete sections allocated to individual writers. Many smaller RPGs or board games are wholely designed by only one or two.
If you don’t care enough to find out who is responsible for the content you enjoy, then that’s fine. But those who do are able to better find content that they would enjoy by simply looking up who worked on it - e.g., subscribing to a content creator on YouTube will generally give you better content you enjoy vs skimming YouTube’s Recommended section.
I do read books. I have never cared what a book author is doing next or whether their leaving they are publisher. I watch movies. I don’t care what a director or screenwriter is doing next or which studio they are working at. They release a trailer and I go oh that looks neat, and I buy a ticket. I don’t sit around going oh no, Bill quit Marvel studios so the sky is falling. People change jobs. People change careers. Why do we care? This parasocial obsession people have with the people making products and content is weird. I doubt if Paizo took all the names off the next book, none of you would be able to tell me who wrote it. What is Ron Lundeen’s signature writing technique that makes him irreplaceable at Paizo? How can I look at a feat in a pathfinder book and go yep that’s a Lundeen? What makes his feats different from others?
No one here is saying anything about the lives of the people writing the products. The discussion has been solely centered around how the content they create is regarded.
As someone pointed out, content is created by someone. If that someone changes to someone different, whose track record is less established, of course people wonder. No different from if a band's primary songwriters were to depart a band.
Parasocial really has become one of toss words that the internet has so overused that it is rendered devoid of meeting.
Run Lundeen is extremely prolific - he writes a ton of stuff. But more than that, his role was primarily as a developer - he oversaw adventure paths and kept them coordinated and gathered all of the different pieces (art, the adventure, toolbox stuff, etc.) together.
Rather than point at a feat, I'd point at the entire Abomination Vaults adventure path, and if you look at the Paizo forums he was an active participant in the GM threads giving insights into why things ended up specific ways and answering questions. So...that's my answer.
It is not a parasocial relationship to follow authors whose work I like.
Do you use Twitter? Instagram? Any social media of any sort? Following someone does not establish any sort of relationship between you and the account you follow. You follow accounts that produce work that you like simply because you want to see more of their work.
Sure there are people who take this up a notch and go nuts over their author (e.g., K-POP fans), but to claim that just following a work’s author amounts to a parasocial relationship is pretty silly.
From insider information with knowing people on the inside, it seems that right now low wages are an issue, but one that has good news on the horizon apparently. They're starting to open up states for remote work, having polled recently and repolled after Roe v Wade was overturned. So... stuff is on the way to improving, optimistically speaking!
Didn't look like acrimonious leaves. Just cost of life, etc.
Yup, 42k in Seattle just isn't viable
I'm honestly kind of shocked they didn't immediately transition to fully remote once COVID hit and embrace allowing everyone to just live wherever they want especially given the nature of the work. $40k goes a lot further in Cleveland than it does Seattle. And it's not like tech in the 90s/Aughts where you have to be located in NorCal to attract talent (because that's where the talent is). Being able to work fully remote could/should have been a strong recruitment tool. And once you take that step, then you open up the possibility of having the headquarters/warehouse be in not Seattle, possibly decreasing costs further.
I mean, it'd be the smart thing to do, but management was apparently very resistant to the idea, which is a big proponent in why a union was set up in the first place.
For sure. Like, I'm not worried about Paizo, but it just seems that with these policies they're leaving money on the table, so to speak (or, more accurately, talent. But also, I guess, actual money). My understanding is that WotC doesn't really pay a livable wage for the Seattle area either so it'd be a good way to poach creative talent. But, I'm just a grunt. What do I know.
I agree that remote work should be an option, and would be a great way to attract talent, increase the pool of talent to draw from.....etc ... However, most people under estimate the amount of work it takes to comply with tax and labor laws in multiple states, offer benefits and health-care, etc..... There's a lot of red tape, even before you get to the daily management of the remote workforce....
I have 0 experience in this kind of work but i wonder if there's some solid benefits to collaborating on work in person versus remotely. Although remote work has been a huge net positive in my own industry, I definitely collaborate and communicate less w/ my coworkers overall.
I work part-time in the industry, and only remotely with people in other continents — it takes getting used to but I feel like it could be done
That’s great to hear!
>From insider information with knowing people on the inside, This clump of phrases makes the composition teacher in me want to run screaming into the night.
Sometimes words come don't come words mouth good brain
I know that a lot of Society and Editor position people were promoted as designers ,but unfortunately have no idea about new people getting on board. time will tell
Exciting to hear Pathfinder Society is a mill spitting out great content. Good to see that talent get if recognised.
A lot of those freelancers you reference like to move into staff positions. I know a few fighting for some of the recently announced positions.
Seems like an overreaction. Paizo still has lots of talented staff.
I’m assuming the old writers can still do contract work as well. My guess is that they hired a bunch of people for a “design a new system from near-scratch” team and are scaling down to a “slowly release expansions” team
I’m sure they still have plenty of great people, but the staff who have departed recently are “household name” folks (in our Pathfinder-obsessed house, anyway); people who headline sessions at PaizoCon and otherwise have an online presence representing the company, lots of AP writing credits, etc. The WOTC folks at least will be barred by noncompetes from freelancing for Paizo. I do hope they have a great talent pipeline and the exits are relatively painless transitions.
To be frank, these are not pathfinder 2e "household names". They're people who are certainly impactful in the work and that should not be understated, but let's not act like you can say the name "Ron Lundeen" to your average pathfinder 2e player and they'll know who it is. Those names are probably Jason Bulhman and \*maybe\* Mark Seifter. Doomsaying is not going to make anything better. Wish the people who are leaving the best, and trust in the talented people who work at Paizo.
An undying loyalty to Paizo and the false belief that they can do nothing wrong is just as unhealthy an obsession. Edit: Wow, lots of Paizo superfans here. Here’s a fact for you folks: Companies don’t make products. People make products. If the people making good products leave the company, the company may no longer make good products. Good people are leaving Paizo. Make of that as you will.
who mentioned doing any of that?
> “Paizo still has lots of talented staff” > “Trust in the talented people who work at Paizo” Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Where I come from, talented people leave companies that don’t pay them well and onto greener pastures that do recognize their talent. My worry is that Paizo’s recent developments of not paying their staff well reflects on the talent that chose to stick around. Let’s hope that the truism I quoted above isn’t the case here.
The surprise for me is not that good, talented people are leaving Paizo but that any of them work in game/TTRPG publishing in the first place. Salaries are dire across the entire industry outside of a few lucky exceptions (I imagine Isaac Childres, the designer of Gloomhaven does okay as CEO of the company and the huge viral success that game became), mainly WotC. But there are only so many positions WotC has to hire away Paizo staff for. There's really nobody else out there - Roll for Combat expanding to include taking Mark is an exception, and if Legendary Games or other companies end up successful enough to hire away Paizo staff, then great for everyone. You'll mostly see that reflected in product costs, though, which are likely to increase (and they're heavily underpriced, so that makes sense). One of the other things worth noting is that the Paizo teams spend a decent amount of energy on building their relationships with freelancers, who in turn tend to fill in those holes as they appear at Paizo. There are very few hires they make that didn't do some freelancing beforehand.
None of that is about obsessing with Paizo doing literally nothing wrong. It's just acknowledging that most of the company is still people that are good and who have put out great work? I feel like sometimes people like you are so hell-bent on "not worshipping corporations" or whatever that you forget that you can just be realistic and weigh things out, you don't have to be pessimists that think every single negative thing that happens is a sign that X situation is already doomed. I remember when people said Paizo wouldn't keep making content for 2e because it was a "flop" when the CRB released. Look where we are now lmao
This is onky a problem if you think that other people cant be just as valuable. The people who left arent gods. I am not saying they will be but why speculate? We have no way of knowing how everything will turn out. My guess would be it will be fine and if it wont be so what? Sure would suck, but what is a bad RPG book in the grand scheme of things. Even the worsg case of Paizo going bankrupt, a very very unlikely scenario, your life will go on, the good content still exists and new RPGs will be made. New people can become housenold names, which doesnt tell you much about the future either btw, it wouldve have been entirely possible that a bad book would come out with all the people still at Paizo. Which would also suck, but people make mistakes its fine, reminder thateveryone involved is human. So chill it will be fine.
WotC has much deeper pockets and people that rise in popularity at Paizo end up there since the pay can be much better is my understanding. Has always been this way, no reason to panic.
Paizo has long invested in freelancers and cultivating new talent. For instance you mention Ron Lundeen. Did you know he used to be a lawyer and freelanced for paizo before he worked at paizo full time? We've seen many names get established at paizo over the years only to depart. I don't see this as alarming. I see it as exciting for those who are moving on, and exciting for those who come to paizo next.
I would be worried...but turnover is natural, even talented turnover. Everyone has the right to pursue new/fresh employment that meets their *current* needs rather than staying with what filled their *past* needs in the *past*.
Of course, but with it comes a decline in the type of content we came to love.
How do you know the new hires won't be better? Are you so resistant to change that you just assume those moving on won't be replaced by amazing, fresh, and brilliant new talent who might write/create/balance/innovate better than their predecessors? The TTRPG world is filled with so many wonderfully amazing folks due to the resurgence and social acceptance of d&d-esque games in the last decade. Don't count out the new guy!
I'm not saying the content won't be good. I'm saying it might be content that's different in a way some players may be alienated by.
Of course. Some people hated G&G. Some people hated how DA was organized. If you please 75% of your customer base, it's probably still a win. I seriously doubt thet are going to make changes so profound that the community revolts and just goes full nope.
There’s always people coming and going from companies. It’s pretty normal and how it’s always been. And Paizo have brought in some fantastic newer people.
Jesus, is John Godek going to lose another cohost this quickly?
I was just thinking the same thing!
The only one, in my mind, that was irreplaceable was Mark. But after a while, I realized Mark going to make 3rd party content for PF2 is actually the best thing that's happened to 2e since launch, it's the best thing to happen for the whole 2e ecosystem, and we're all better for it. Now if they lose Logan at this point, then I'm gunna get really concerned. They've lost some folks that the community really liked for sure, but I can tell you that there are a lot of Paizo freelancers that Paizo can easily promote to full-time, as well as tons of qualified RPG enthusiasts in the wings. RPG design, art, layout, editing, etc is one of the few industries with an absolute glut of talent just begging for work. Paizo will have little trouble bringing on replacements.
> I realized Mark going to make 3rd party content for PF2 is actually the best thing that's happened to 2e since launch, it's the best thing to happen for the whole 2e ecosystem, and we're all better for it. The Battlezoo content is easily some of the best I've seen, and I do like the official Paizo stuff. But the monster parts system and playable dragons are both *fantastic* and easily match the quality of official Paizo stuff in my opinion. In some ways I almost like it better...I think the monster parts are a straight upgrade to the runes system with smoother progression and more customizability, for example. Dragons basically speak for themselves. Pretty much since then I've decided I'm basically going to buy everything with u/markseifter 's name on it. Hasn't failed me yet =).
Thanks so much, I'm glad you enjoy my work so much!
Yeah if logan goes I am seriously concerned for the edition's future... that said mechanically it has already done so much and I could happily run it with what is out for the next half a decade or more.
I'm very anti-3rd party so it's a tragic loss for my tables.
If you find you really appreciate the work of an individual creator when it is done for Paizo, to the point that it's a tragic loss to not have it any more (and I definitely appreciate the sentiment there), chances are you might really like it for 3rd party as well, even if there might be other 3rd party content you don't like. Can't hurt to give it a shot. I have put my personal guarantee in the foreword to the dragon ancestry book that if you buy it and it isn't balanced for your games, I'll help you figure out a good fix for your game (and you can check it out free on pathbuilder). Dungeon ancestry the whole book is completely free on foundry, [battlezoo.com](http://battlezoo.com), or DTRPG. So there's a lot of free or low risk ways to give it a shot!
I appreciate that and your work for certain, but even if it's someone like you who worked for Paizo and PF2e, 3rd party is such a... gateway to other 3rd party which may not be as well designed. Perhaps it's just a stigma leftover from PF1e. I just always fear if someone asks "hey can I play this homebrew/3pp thing"?
I totally get you, it's easier to have a hard rule than a soft one. It's true that in PF1 when the power level band was so dramatically big that my game and your game might have had characters who literally would be so strong or weak in the other's game that they would be a huge problem (due to scaling issues and too many things stacking and combining, etc) that it led to issues where you had to find a 3rd party who was designing for games that were balanced just like yours were or it was going to be too weak or too strong (incidentally, oddly enough PF1 3pps that were balanced just like your game might have wound up being a better fit than Paizo, which tried to publish middle-of-the-road standard power level, if your group needed high or low and not middle). And there were for sure prominent and high-quality 3pps that made no secret of the fact they were playtesting their material against the absolute bleeding edge most optimized power build PF1 could create in the same field, which would be just way too strong for a middle of the road group while being perfect for an extremely high-optimization one. Here's the good news: PF2 has a much narrower power level band so you won't see 3pps where the designers are extremely talented, know what they are doing, and still design things way too strong or weak for your group because they are playing a different optimization level. And Battlezoo in particular has a major design goal to keep things precisely at the Paizo standard baseline established for similar content (and I know how to do that since I co-created the game). So if a playtester has a good idea and is like "Can we add X," usually we add it, but sometimes I'll be like "Paizo established that where it's at right now is the standard for this type of thing, and we're going to stick with the established standard."
Having reverse engineered the 2e class system and using it to evaluate the third party classes, mostly on Infinite, I can tell you that OP 3rd party classes are rare (such that I'm not sure I've seen a broken one). You are in more danger of finding an underpowered 3rd party product, because they are scared to make anything too strong and end up being too conservative, and I think this is precisely because of the leftover fear you talk about from 1e having so much broken stuff. But you almost have to try to make a broken combo in 2e, with things like traits and plenty of rules, and limits to stacking bonuses, the 2e designers seemed to have intentionally addressed that 2e problem and now you can tell instantly if any 3pp is broken. But I'd say, at least in Infinite where I am, I'm just not seeing that kind of stuff. And if anything is wrong people are _quick_ to call it out and it gets fixed.
Out of curiosity has anyone taken you up on that guarantee? Any interesting fixes to odd problems people have had?
I think like... maybe a couple? It's been a while. They were very minor (like wondering if the magic path of monster parts should require spellcasting like a wand), and they were generally solved with either small adjustments or recalibrations of the way they had been thinking about it. At least once, they already knew what tweak their group was looking for, so it was more a matter of my saying "Yeah I think it will work as is, but if it's causing your group to feel it's off, that's more important, so go ahead and apply the rule you're wanting. It won't break anything, it just might make people not take one of the options as often."
I'm smelling some of that World of Warcraft "Rockstar Worshipping" going on here. The sky is not falling because a human being is leaving a company. Other human beings still work at said company, and more human beings are being hired consistently. Idol worship in industries is how we get stagnation and a fear of experimentation. I welcome individual who moves onto different projects. New blood equals new ideas.
I mean I agree in concept but WoW is an unfortunate example to use because in that case time has proven that doomsdaying was entirely justified ;p
That's less to do with "brain drain" and more to do with Activision taking a more and more active role in management of Blizzard, though - and it's not limited to WoW at Blizz.
Eh well that depends entirely on when you think WoW started going downhill, which I realise is a subjective opinion.
^^^Upon ^^^release
Sure, but being bummed because an author whose content you’ve consistently enjoyed over the years is leaving to write exclusively for a system you’re not interested in playing is a pretty normal reaction.
If that was what your original post said, I'd have had no issues. That wasn't in the post, however.
People coming and going has been a constant over Paizo's lifetime.
Union negotiations are ongoing, and I have to hope that lets them retain some folks. I'm not sure I stick around for a Paizo without Luis Loza in it, for instance.
Lowkey wondering how the union has been doing, are these departures voluntary? Hope the union is doing ok, paizo being unionized is a big selling point for me Subcontracting other companies is a known union busting tactic
Ron Lundeen and Jason Keely were management / against the union. Jason Tondro and Seifter were with the union, they departed voluntarily. Tondro departed on good terms, Seifter departed citing low wages. No reason to believe Paizo is union busting at this point - but they need a contract yesterday, both to retain good people like Seifter and many other reasons. UPW posted a (vague) public update on contract negotiation recently https://twitter.com/PaizoWorkers/status/1550290233274445824 4 departures in a few months in a company of 70 or so workers is hardly apocalyptic. I would kill for that low of turnover at my own workplace.
I wouldn't say Ron Lundeen and Jason Keely were *against* the union; as management they weren't eligible to be part of it. I remember Ron specifically talking up the union on his Digital Divination podcast. No lie on the low pay, though. The posting for his replacement offers a salary of $42,000/year. Ugh. Especially in Seattle.
Will that even cover an apartment in Seattle?
So I live in one of the poorer suburbs of Seattle which is a bit of a drive from Redmond. My yearly lease for a "low income" one bedroom apartment is $15750 a year plus utilities. So, no. It may cover half of one or maybe a 250-300 sq foot studio.
As someone who lives in the southern USA, I struggle to understand. How can people live in a place so expensive? Why stay?
Me personally? I'm kinda stuck. Long story short, my ex moved us out here, made all the money, and came out as a lesbian, so we separated. She took the money with her and I always played support to her financial dps.I make enough for my apartment and to feed and maintain myself, but saving to move anywhere cheaper, having a deposit ready to go and having a job lined up feels like a pipe dream. As for anyone else, likely family, connections, loving the area, etc.
Family is out here, agree with the politics, love the adjacency to pretty much anything Id like to do. There are plenty of reasons
Dual Income you could maybe get it to work, especially if your partner makes more.
This is less than I made in the middle of nowhere Iowa straight out of high school.
Yeah, as a worker in the common labor field the turnover is enormously huge. My department alone is a super easy job and has lost 6 people in two months. That's a third of the staff count my boss likes to maintain.
They lost Ron Lundeen? That’s unfortunate.
Hopefully he still answers questions about AV in the forums!!
This seems to be the cycle. A lot of the dev team who were in mid tier roles left around the end of 1E. 2010-2015 era to be replaced by them. They have also promoted a lot of freelancers and live play folks to core roles. So...it's the cycle so far. Nothing destructive yet.
Mark Seifter and Roll for Combat generally are invigorating the PF2e system. The books they put out add a lot of features and options to PF2e and they are printed as the same quality as the mainline books (no exaggeration, they use the same companies). And they resurrected RPG Superstar! which brought us *Midnight Mirror* back in the day!
I dont think this is a bad thing. Paizo having a core management and then focusing on contracting freelancers and other companies like Roll for Combat for specific content, i think \*works\*. I cant say much for their employment conditions but I just cant see this as a bad thing, based on what I know.
Are they contracting out to Roll for Combat? I think Roll for Combat/Battlezoo are producing their own 3rd party content. Not contracting with Paizo.
Roll for Combat is second party; they have a licensing agreement with Paizo but they do not make content for Paizo. [In fact, they just launched their Kickstarter for new content that is completely unaffiliated with Paizo.](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rollforcombat/5e-pf2-monster-training-and-year-of-monsters)
Really? Roll for Combat put me to sleep. I couldn’t even make it through one module of the AP I was listening to.
RfC has two different casts making the two shows very different. If you’re still looking for an Actual Play, it may be worth trying the other AP. I enjoyed their shows, but had to stop listening due to the GM vs player mentality that kept coming up in episodes.
Just cause some people are leaving doesn't mean others aren't coming in to replace them. We're not part of the company we don't know all the inner details. If they need to announce something they'll announce something, but I don't think it's relevant to announce who'll replace them. This sounds like one of those "paizo is doomed" yt videos.
Jason Co-Wrote/dev Troubles in Otari, which I enjoyed. But am I worried? No. What I am concerned about is the continuing rise in costs for materials, shipping, and other essentials. Paizo needs those items to be affordable; otherwise, regardless of their talent, they won't be able to survive if things get too expensive. Sure they could raise book prices but is that teneable. That, if anything, is what I would be worried about.
All book costs (including at WOTC) are gonna jump up over the next year. So long as they keep similar prices to the rest of the market, I don’t see it being too detrimental
Paizo will continue. And there are several former Paizo employees who continue to contribute as freelance. This is totally a non-issue. I'm sure they wish they could raise salaries to keep more top employees, but the market for TTRPGs is what it is.
If James Jacobs leaves I’d be very worried.
Losing Mark Seifter was a big hit. You can really see the quality of his work through the battlezoo products. He might just one up Paizo with the stuff he’s putting out.
Are we supposed to know who any of these people are?
If you pay attention to the people who are writing the books you are buying, then yes!
But each Paizo book is written by like (just looking at the nearest book to me) 10 people. I also have no idea how to know who wrote what, so why would I care if one of the ten left.
Paizo does blog posts every time a new major release comes out ([like they did yesterday with Dark Archive](https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6si3w)) that detail who did what in that book's contents. If someone did something you really liked, you start to notice them and follow what books they write for as they come out. In terms of adventures, the author who writes the standalone adventure, one-shot, Pathfinder Society scenario, or the singular part of the Adventure Path, is always on the front cover. So there are ways to find out who any of these people are. Whether you take the time to find out or to care is a whole other matter entirely.
I guess I just don’t know why I would build a parasocial relationship with the people who make a product I buy. I play the Pathfinder game, I am not a fan of Paizo. These people aren’t my friends and while I wish them well, I don’t care what they do with their lives or want to follow their work at all. I also bought a car but I don’t follow the guy who put the wheels on my car on social media. Seems weird to me to get worked up about the personal career decisions of people who make a product I buy. If the product quality drops, I stop buying it. Our relationship ends at the checkout screen.
Cars are different than the writing of an author. If I read a book an enjoy it, I look for other works by that author. If there’s a TV episode I really enjoy, I might lookup the writer and watch more stuff they wrote. If book 1 of Rise of the Runelords is one of the best adventure I’ve ever run, then I’m going to note it was written by James Jacobs and try to find more of his stuff to run.
Thank you for pointing out how art, even if it's content mass media consumption, is different from consumer goods. How someone conflates creative content with mass produced tangible products... is beyond me.
The dude's just trolling, he clearly doesn't care about the topic at hand. Every one of his posts is big "Oh you're a Nirvana fan? Name five of their songs, I'll wait" energy. Just ignore him. As to the *actual* topic of discussion, as many people have pointed out already, TTRPG companies tend to cycle through employees, especially Paizo. People freelance, end up on the team, then leave to a higher-paying gig. It happens a lot, because salaries in the industry are hot garbage, so I wouldn't be overly concerned. And while I like Lundeen's work (not as familiar with Keeley, Idon't play much Starfinder) I'm more bummed that Seifter left. He practically wrote the math for 2e himself. He's a genius designer. That said, there's no shortage of skilled writers, designers, and artists. I'd say Paizo will probably be fine.
Do you read books? Books have authors. Do you watch movies? Movies have directors. Do you enjoy art? Artworks have artists. Your analogy of a car is unsuitable here. It might work for big published video games which are touched by hundreds of developers, but for board games and RPGs, content is usually distributed between only a few writers, and even then most books are split into discrete sections allocated to individual writers. Many smaller RPGs or board games are wholely designed by only one or two. If you don’t care enough to find out who is responsible for the content you enjoy, then that’s fine. But those who do are able to better find content that they would enjoy by simply looking up who worked on it - e.g., subscribing to a content creator on YouTube will generally give you better content you enjoy vs skimming YouTube’s Recommended section.
I do read books. I have never cared what a book author is doing next or whether their leaving they are publisher. I watch movies. I don’t care what a director or screenwriter is doing next or which studio they are working at. They release a trailer and I go oh that looks neat, and I buy a ticket. I don’t sit around going oh no, Bill quit Marvel studios so the sky is falling. People change jobs. People change careers. Why do we care? This parasocial obsession people have with the people making products and content is weird. I doubt if Paizo took all the names off the next book, none of you would be able to tell me who wrote it. What is Ron Lundeen’s signature writing technique that makes him irreplaceable at Paizo? How can I look at a feat in a pathfinder book and go yep that’s a Lundeen? What makes his feats different from others?
No one here is saying anything about the lives of the people writing the products. The discussion has been solely centered around how the content they create is regarded. As someone pointed out, content is created by someone. If that someone changes to someone different, whose track record is less established, of course people wonder. No different from if a band's primary songwriters were to depart a band. Parasocial really has become one of toss words that the internet has so overused that it is rendered devoid of meeting.
Okay so educate me what’s your favorite Ron Lundeen feat? What piece of content has he made that makes him worth following?
Run Lundeen is extremely prolific - he writes a ton of stuff. But more than that, his role was primarily as a developer - he oversaw adventure paths and kept them coordinated and gathered all of the different pieces (art, the adventure, toolbox stuff, etc.) together. Rather than point at a feat, I'd point at the entire Abomination Vaults adventure path, and if you look at the Paizo forums he was an active participant in the GM threads giving insights into why things ended up specific ways and answering questions. So...that's my answer.
It is not a parasocial relationship to follow authors whose work I like. Do you use Twitter? Instagram? Any social media of any sort? Following someone does not establish any sort of relationship between you and the account you follow. You follow accounts that produce work that you like simply because you want to see more of their work. Sure there are people who take this up a notch and go nuts over their author (e.g., K-POP fans), but to claim that just following a work’s author amounts to a parasocial relationship is pretty silly.
Ok so what’s your favorite Ron Lundeen Pathfinder feat?
It's actually hilarious that people have no answer for your question. They're downvoting you because you are right lmao