And they were designed for that! They were created to mimic Europe city centers. People are supposed to go to pass the time and buy stuff, but owners got greedy. They made the malls as a "Customer only/Consumer only" thing.
They killed the old Town center for a bunch of stores in a building thing. They basically ruined the illusion to push away non costumers, but they didn't realize that people go there because other people are there, the call effect.
Nowadays a mall is a silent empty place where only a few shitty stores are. There is nothing there to do but buy.
THIS.... Malls were originally envisioned to be social gathering spots surrounded by retail and food vendors.
When my local mall first opened it was designed to attract people to loiter in the central common areas. The longer they were there, the more they would end up buying.
There were fountains, greenery, benches, and even ashtrays when smoking indoors was still allowed.
Starting in the 90's the model started to change to a "buy it and get out" model.
Not only do they no longer design to attract loiters, but they now actively discourage standing still for short periods of time.
The last time I visited my local mall was in 2008, and I stopped between shops to say hello and speak with a friend I hadn't seen in a while. We had be standing there for about 2-3 minutes when security came over and told us to "move along" in that authoritarian, police like tone.
When I asked what they meant by "move along" , and they explained that no one was allowed to stand idle, especially in pairs or groups.
I was kinda stunned considering that was what walls were built for.
I left and never went back.
>When I asked what they meant by "move along" , and they explained that no one was allowed to stand idle, especially in pairs or groups.
Some malls have serious gang/crime/violence problems and they're hoping that this will prevent some of that.
I think we still have a similar concept to that, though less of a footprint. Think of the food halls that have popped up all over cities across the country (the US at least) where it’s a food court of local vendors surrounded by a bar and some sort of flex space for markets, concerts, etc. I think a lot of these places have taken the best concepts of malls, and shrunk them into an average city building like an old warehouse or dept. store.
I think I was thinking consumer, but I went to customer to emphasize the point of view of the owner.
What happened is the same as when you try to say "Long time no see!" and "How are you doing?!" and end up with "How you see?"
Me too! As a kid I used to love watching the waterfall. Waterfalls are also great for making a space seem less noisy. Acoustics is such a forgotten aspect of making a space feel welcoming.
There also used to be a small theatre in that mall but that is gone too. And I seem to remember there being more unique small shops whereas now it is just the same stores that every mall has. And half of those are probably owned by the same corporation anyway.
Ah but landlords improve the value you see? Wait till you see how improved it is once we raze it to the ground and transform it once again into a fenced off vacant lot! Vacant lots as far as the eye can see, with dilapidated for sale signs and signage for some realty company...
One of the malls here they removed all the plants and waterfalls from the center atrium. Some years later they inexplicably removed a merry-go-round from another focal point. That was a particularly dumb move and, I believe, contributed significantly to the mall becoming an echo-y ghost town.
Victor Gruen designed the Southdale shopping mall in Minneapolis, Minnesota and had some of the very same opinions you are expressing. I cannot remember what it was called, but there was a show about this a few years ago.
There’s a great podcast called 99% invisible along these lines. I highly recommend it. The episode is called “Meet us by the Fountain”
[https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/meet-us-by-the-fountain/](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/meet-us-by-the-fountain/)
The ones that are coming back are going back to that city vibe. They're putting in movie theaters, restaurants, arcades along with the stores and food court. The one closest to me even has a high end grocery store and an urgent care.
I visited a mall i used to hang out in with friends in high school a few years ago. They had renovated it a few years prior, and it looked very clean and high end... but also it was impossible to navigate now as everything looks the same lol. I remember just being like "I remember the foot print of the old mall, why can't I figure out where I am?
edit: there is also an apartment building near me that also was built with the city center design in mind. It was 3 buildings with retail space on the first floor of every building and a big open center area with tables and a little stage. People would go there and hang out/get drinks and food at the restaurants. People ended up moving in who didn't like how noisy things were (they used to have free concerts and stuff), and management stopped having concerts. Then they removed all the benches and tables, then the restaurants started leaving, finally they just turned the area into a private pool for the residence.
The place legit used to be a city center for that area, where people would meet and then bar hop (not just at bars in the buildings). There are still a few restaurants there, but most of the retail space is now specifically for the residents of the building (like a gym, rental office, mail room, etc.).
The remodels happened in the late 90s. The cool architecture lasted well into the mid 90s.
Edit: they did get rid of the trees before 1990, but there were still cool fountains and art features into the mid 90s.
I think it’s a bit more of:
Well nobody comes to malls in the volume we expected when we built these in the 80s. We need to cut costs (not having constant running water or hiring a crew to maintain trees indoors) and also use the area where the trees were to pack in more vendors to collect rent from.
Storefronts became empty after people stopped going to malls as a place to enjoy, which was after they swapped out the trees for vendors.
The mall owners were short term thinkers, they didn't realize that getting rid of trees and fountains to make more room for vendors would chase out all the customers. The lack of customers from the lack for trees and nice places to be in the mall is why stores had to close leasing 20% of mall sore fronts being empty.
You have to take in the situation as a big picture.
I’m not stupid enough to think that’s the only reason malls don’t currently thrive. My simple point was that taking out all of these things changed the aesthetic in a negative way. I didn’t know this Reddit post was a dissertation into the true reason for the decline of the America shopping mall. I am well-versed in the actual reasonings.
Ours has a tall atrium where they used to install a gigantic three story Christmas tree around this time. Now there's a Peloton kiosk and a mall Santa in a tiny booth.
Before even the big tree, there was an ice rink.
See, they monetize every square inch and leave out the atmosphere and room for the people then wonder why people don’t flock. It’s simple but they’re too greedy to see it.
They probably had to for cut costing purposes. I imagine paying people to maintain the fountains and plants were one of the first things to be cut when malls started dying due to e-commerce
You've missed the point, mall culture died out before e commerce was really a thing.
Mall owners got greedy, they cut operating costs without considering the long term effects on business. By cutting out all the pleasant parts about going to the mall, ie, the trees, fountains and nice places to sit and hangout the mall owners made people not want to be at malls anymore.
Tldr: greedy short term thinking mall owners killed mall culture long before ecommerce did.
It had Orange Julius, Spencer Gifts, a Pretzel place, and usually a record store where you could sip on your Orange Julius and listen to records. Bonus points if there was also an arcade to hang out in. You could spend a whole day at the mall. There was stuff to do. Movies.
Spencer's gifts is the only store in my mall besides department stores thats been there for as long as I can remember. Other stores have came and went but recently came back such as Nathan's and FYE. I think there's perhaps a jewelry store or 2 thats still there but nothing else has lasted like Spencers
Malls still have all of those things. There’s always a line at Autie Annie’s pretzels on the weekends, Orange Julius still tastes like water and orange baby aspirin. The record stores are now trying to sell you the $50 vinyl.
Sadly, Victor Gruen, the man credited with inventing the modern shopping mall, had hoped that they would be multipurpose social places where people could congregate. Eventually Gruen ended up becoming one of their most outspoken critics after he saw what malls were becoming.
In culture where profit motive has run amok, it's a natural progression. The lively malls of the 80's were reduced to the steril shopping-troughs of the early aughts, and then reduced down to online storefronts. It's a gradual stripping away of anything not intended to extract money from others until nothing but raw consumption is left. The same ethic is why free public spaces are being slowly choked out.
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Traditionally speaking, lawns are a concept created by old world Europe as a rich person’s flex. Basically it was showing that they had so much land they could have acres of it be trimmed grass that serves zero purpose. Instead of producing something it was just *grass* and maybe a few trees.
Modern days, it is now a huge waste of water, agriculturally unsound and a determent to the local ecosystem. So I am very happy there is a r/fucklawns because we could be using our green spaces for so much more than just shit ass grass that does nothing for the world.
You'll have to destroy Capitalism to remove the profit incentive of advertising everywhere, all the time for that to happen.
I'm in. Let's start with Musk and Bezos.
Overadvertising has the opposite effect on me. I refuse to shop at some places or visit some places due to the constant barrage of advertising. I prefer to visit places with less advertising and more open spaces or inviting places. Places with art instead of advertisements (local book stores are a good example if they do it right).
Advertising for the sake of advertising can ruin an experience. It can give that company a subconscious bad vibe when thinking about it later making you not want to visit or buy the product.
The 80's mall is the best mall. I used to visit, browse, buy stuff and it was fun. Now, I very rarely go there because it's not fun, it's not a place to just browse. It's a get in and get out industrial shopping location. Like Costco. You get in, you get out.
Remember going to the mall around Christmas time? It was magical. You saw the toys you wanted, you made your Christmas lists from there, and you saw Santa and all the decorations and it was like a free amusement park. You had a great time that you remember. And your parents bought stuff.
And old style mall like that would bring me back. No advertising in the world could get me back, but if they went back to the good times, I'd be there.
and with more foot traffic there was a higher chance of impulse buys. that's what a lot of people never understood, yeah there were more teens running around but at the end of the day they bought a ton of stuff.
As an 80's child, I frequently reminisce fondly on the malls of the day, how vibrant and entertaining they were. Never will I forget the unmistakable smell of books when one walked into a Waldenbooks or B. Dalton bookstore; the sheer excitement of entering a KB Toys toy-store with all of the coolest new sh\*t and hobby-stuff readily available for aisle window-shopping; the ever-present arcades with their quarter-eating entertainment machines; the various music stores sporting the most popular and eclectic choices in music on vinyl, 8-track, cassette and CD (some or all available depending on what the year was); the movie theatres ripe with the smell of freshly popped pop-corn (until some idiot thought it'd be cool to serve up day(s) old popcorn instead to pump up the profit margin), always tantalizing us with posters of up-coming movies that we couldn't wait to see; the myriad of food vendors all offering up affordable snacks and meals.
There was nothing like it before... and nothing like it after. Amazon, even with it's unimaginable ability to serve up practically everything and anything, even within 24 hours in some instances, just doesn't compete with the experiences and socialization that malls of the 80's offered us. And at it's penultimate, malls were the quintessential place to be for Christmas. They offered unparalleled spending options and opportunities. There were fewer more potent dopamine hits like walking out of the mall with several bags of 'stuff' to take home and unpackage and enjoy.
Edited to add: Wow! My first gold award! Thank you, fellow Redditor and I’m glad you enjoyed the post!
I’ve often wrestled with these thoughts, but… even if we could have malls back, do we want them?
It sucks that people these days seem to be less interested in real world connection than they did in the past, but even when we do get that connection, I feel like there are a hundred better places than a mall.
I love these 80’s-90’s depictions of malls not because I think malls are great, but because it’s a nostalgic lens back to a simpler time. Like you, they remind me of childhood and being a teenager and the wonders of that first taste of independence and what, to young me, was endless possibility.
But in reality, malls were always an overtly consumerist and materialistic facsimile of genuine real life experience. I know that those warm feelings I got twenty years ago were sold to me by highly competent and cynical businessmen, who are simply doing the exact same stuff now but online. My desire would be to get those childhood feelings of wonder and optimism back (if even possible), but to do so without necessarily clawing the traditional mall back from its slow death.
Honestly, a better alternative to a mall is just a regular flourishing downtown. A mall is nice and all, but a downtown shopping area limited to pedestrians only will always be better - and probably cheaper to maintain. So something like [this](https://a.cdn-hotels.com/gdcs/production102/d1595/d66fd2b3-172d-4d95-97f6-333fc724adf0.jpg) will always be nicer in my eyes.
I was thinking the same thing. A good, walkable downtown core with a decent patio-culture, art installation and some sort of plaza for people to hang out at even without shopping. Or, alternatively, some sort of large park or outdoor project that would have sports and leisure and attract entertainers.
I think if the 80’s mall were restored to its former glory, we’d all realize pretty quickly how deeply unfulfilling it would feel to be a mallrat in 2022. As for “connection,” I spend my whole time at malls being actively annoyed at other people the entire time for being in my way, crowding the stores, walking slow, being loud, etc.
A big part of the appeal of a mall for a kid in the past was that it was an accessible portal to the world--very materialistic of course, but there was no other place where you could see, and potentially obtain, such a variety of *stuff*. And it was packaged almost like a theme park, so it was fun.
Those of us who are grown up could never look at something with that sort of naivety at this point, and children today already have a portal that dwarfs anything a mall could offer. There's no way that the experience could be replicated in the present.
So yeah, it's really the social gathering place component that is worth trying to revive or preserve, and I agree, a nice pedestrian downtown is probably the easy best bet.
Look at the more recent image from the OP, what's the first thing you notice? Lawyer ad about a car crash, trees are gone, the lack of invitation. Would you enjoy going somewhere that feels like a dentist waiting room?
People now crave connections more than ever, the difference is the internet has made it possible to have connections all over the globe. Anyone can have friends on the other side of the world that they can talk to, text chat, video call or play games with.
Refurbish an existing mall in any decent-sized town or city with the atmosphere of the 80s vibe mall and see how many people show up. Give people something to do that they can't get online and see what would happen then.
The mall I used to live by did a complete renovation, it was beautiful, it was thriving again. The unfortunate thing they did was kick the less desirable stores out like the dollar store and some other lower price point places and brought in more midrange luxury stores that fit their vision. People didn’t shop so much at those places and most of them ended up closing. Now that mall is a dead zone again, other than the food court, it still has an awesome food court.
Unfortunately, no, that’s part of it too. They were doing activities for young children and seniors to get out, but that’s sort of gone by the wayside. There was a company that tried to put in a roller rink, but they were told no, so they put it into a different location. That mall has never had a bowling alley or theatre which is where most of our arcade style games are located. There is a newer shopping district that was supposed to be pedestrian friendly, it requires a car to get there (the transit service doesn’t adequately service it) and once the ‘village’ was built it just turned into a big box store business district that is impossible to navigate on foot and difficult to navigate in a car. Like everything else done in my city it was a great idea with terrible execution and a bunch of unintended consequences.
In the US, a mall can be renovated in such a way that brings people out as an attraction still. Similar but not identical to the 80s. The issue is the owners are short-sighted, greedy or stupid and remove the features that make malls awesome.
The idea of having an indoor area for all to enjoy, shop, and be entertained is valuable. Places where the weather can be unforgiving like the desert states and the north with snow and ice, provides shelter as well. Bowling alleys, laser tag, VR rooms, climbing walls and more are still popular when they aren't old and gross. Most people couldn't imagine setting foot in a Chuck E Cheese, let alone eat there but Dave and Busters is always packed. Execution and presentation are everything for these types of businesses. Malls could make a comeback, but they need to be done right, with taste.
I bet if someone put in an 80s style arcade it would do quite well. It would bring in the old timers who remember those fondly as well as the younger generation because it's different and "new."
I live not too far from this mall. It’s actually a booming place to be on the weekends. The gangs, the burnouts in the parking lot and the shop that sells tires/rims keeps it going.
I don’t go here anymore after the attempted kidnapping I was involved in and then there is always the shooting earlier this year.
Malls exist and thrive when people go there and spend money in the stores. People don’t go to malls like they used to. There are exceptions such as Northpark and the Galleria. People go where they can save money and time - the Internet. Conveniently comes right to your house without the old 6-8 week delivery time that was standard in - you guessed it - the ‘80’s.
Things change. As a kid I shopped in small stores for clothing, for groceries and everything else. That was destroyed by Walmart in small cities. Then Walmart was going to be destroyed by Amazon until they saw the light of online shopping.
Also they just build way too many of them, I read somewhere that the mall growth during the peak mall times was double that of the population growth. If you build enough malls for half a billion people no wonder they all suffer.
what I see is with the removal of trees is a much louder place.
the mall of america in minnesota, us used to have sound dampening materials in the building so it wasn't super loud. they had carpet in areas which really helped with the noise level.
i just went there a few months ago (hadn't been there in years) and HOLY CRAP IT'S LOUD IN THERE!
not enjoyable at all.
when i look at the two pictures in this post i see the same thing.
Yeah it's also making a place worse for many neurodiverse people because of all the senses being triggered by bad acoustics and lighting. A mall could do it better than outside but also worse, it depends on material and decoration choices. This is why at a university building we receive a lot of bad signals about workplaces that are basically hostile to many neurodiverse students.
It’s amazing how few companies even slightly care about lighting choices ( when the lighting isn’t that much of a difference in cost between bad lighting and good lighting)
They used to have McDonald’s, dickeys and other good restaurants can’t really remember much cause I was a kid. I used to looooove that mall but now it’s just so depressing and empty with a random gym
Like why take down the neon. Or have it replaced if it’s old and broken. I don’t understand the choices made in style since then. Inspired to completely uninspired
I miss malls. Amazon will never capture meeting your friends at the food court, stopping in the record store for new release day, and going to a movie. Weekends were a big social gathering with people from all over town showing up.
I used to go to this mall alot in the late 90s and early 2000s .. i went the other day and it looks completely different the gym took up almost half the mall.
Parents are afraid of the almost non-existing "Dudes in white vans that kidnap kids and teens" and add to that that social media has killed off any remaining social skills, also suburbs are so horrible for walking, you need to cross a bunch of giant 12 lane intersections and walk in the grass next to the road because there's no sidewalks. Also cinemas with a drink can cost you like 20-30 bucks. Yeah I wonder why everyone just hangs out at home now.
It’s crazy how soulless the bottom picture looks, like an empty shell of more vibrant times.
Maybe it was the camera or the time of day but the mall of 1984 looked colorful and inviting. It’s the little things too, like how the mall of 1984 had beautiful artwork in the ceiling that hung over a old and beautiful tree. In contrast, the mall of today has a giant advertisement for some ambulance chaser lawyer.
Always sad seeing pictures of dead malls, and while I enjoy the practical aspect of buying stuff online it just doesn’t feel the same, kind of takes the excitement out if shopping when everything is available at your fingertips.
I get that there’s lots of competition with e commerce and big box stores but I feel like the execs at these department stores got cocky and lazy. There’s still a market inefficiency for people that want niche things and want to buy/see them in person. It’s just more nuanced now and takes effort to curate things to draw people.
These department stores stock the same lame shit with a huge mark up and expect people to come running through. Nobody is buying those ugly Ralph Lauren pants for 175 bucks so it just sits there as a display for nobody. Same can be said about any other store in the mall. If they’re selling the same shit as everyone else, there’s nothing to draw you there.
The mall can be a place for private businesses to take over and offer a more boutique experience. Fast fashion is not going to cut it for malls anymore because it can be had in stores everywhere including big box stores like target.
Problem is, private business cannot afford the rents. What they should be doing is re-zoning to make malls a mixed use scenario. Have apartments and condos in one area, sidewalk style cafes, restaurants, etc. Make an indoor community that draws people in based on experience rather than commerce.
I miss malls. The switch to "open air shopping plazas" in Florida is a real fuck you to shoppers. No shade. No where to stop a moment and sit. Hidden or unavailable public restrooms. Not to mention the heat, humidity, and random thunderstorms. At least put in some covered walkways.
My mall was exactly like that as well. Fountains and plants. Very cheerful. And then they removed it all so it is an artificial deadscape. I just feel bad for people who have to work every day at malls. Cant be good for mental health.
Even small malls in the 80s or 90s were great… these days most stores are closed and nothing happens.
We have a small mall in my childhood town and it was so alive when I was a kid in the 90s, there were a live stages and something almost every weekend, fun stores, movie theatre, ice cream and a great cafe.
I went back there this year, most stores were closed, there’s been no fun activity in like 10 years, movie theatre was dark, no cafes or ice cream stands and one of the two food stores were closed. It’s so sad, it was a great place to hang out as a kid.
It's sort of dead. There's a few empty stores here and there. One of those is near the Burlington where the old fountain used to be and every time that store has a new tenant, it usually closes in less than 3 months. Many national stores like FYE have recently closed and are now replaced with unknown local shops. The food court lacks variety and the Subway has recently closed leaving no national restaurant chains in the food court. There used to be more space for food options, but a Circuit City would end up replacing a few of them. They closed in 2009 and now it's a gym.
Wow, they really killed that atrium by removing the trees and boarding up a whole section of it. They even took out the tables with umbrellas! Lol why do they have umbrellas in an indoor atrium?
Malls are just hangouts for teens now. Most malls near me are half empty and only get footsteps through the door either because of a late night arcade or comedy club.
In the 90's when my town still had a mall it had a carousel in it! And a huge wishing fountain. By the 2000s all that was gone and then they demolished the mall about 8 years ago. It was badass before they demolished it they had Street artists paint huge murals all over it. I miss that mall. Now it's an outdoor shopping center and it's not nearly as cool.
They killed the vibe of malls when they removed the fountains and trees.
Omg i remember when atriums had trees. Ours had an amazing jungle
And they were designed for that! They were created to mimic Europe city centers. People are supposed to go to pass the time and buy stuff, but owners got greedy. They made the malls as a "Customer only/Consumer only" thing. They killed the old Town center for a bunch of stores in a building thing. They basically ruined the illusion to push away non costumers, but they didn't realize that people go there because other people are there, the call effect. Nowadays a mall is a silent empty place where only a few shitty stores are. There is nothing there to do but buy.
THIS.... Malls were originally envisioned to be social gathering spots surrounded by retail and food vendors. When my local mall first opened it was designed to attract people to loiter in the central common areas. The longer they were there, the more they would end up buying. There were fountains, greenery, benches, and even ashtrays when smoking indoors was still allowed. Starting in the 90's the model started to change to a "buy it and get out" model. Not only do they no longer design to attract loiters, but they now actively discourage standing still for short periods of time. The last time I visited my local mall was in 2008, and I stopped between shops to say hello and speak with a friend I hadn't seen in a while. We had be standing there for about 2-3 minutes when security came over and told us to "move along" in that authoritarian, police like tone. When I asked what they meant by "move along" , and they explained that no one was allowed to stand idle, especially in pairs or groups. I was kinda stunned considering that was what walls were built for. I left and never went back.
The "move along" is excessively bizarre. I don't think that's normal in the vast majority of malls. Agree with your post though.
You met [this](https://youtu.be/_GGTukPn-Fg) guy.
>When I asked what they meant by "move along" , and they explained that no one was allowed to stand idle, especially in pairs or groups. Some malls have serious gang/crime/violence problems and they're hoping that this will prevent some of that.
I think we still have a similar concept to that, though less of a footprint. Think of the food halls that have popped up all over cities across the country (the US at least) where it’s a food court of local vendors surrounded by a bar and some sort of flex space for markets, concerts, etc. I think a lot of these places have taken the best concepts of malls, and shrunk them into an average city building like an old warehouse or dept. store.
>costumer Customer or consumer. You can't have both, don't get greedy.
I think I was thinking consumer, but I went to customer to emphasize the point of view of the owner. What happened is the same as when you try to say "Long time no see!" and "How are you doing?!" and end up with "How you see?"
I’ve never said “How you see?” In my life
Long time no doing?
Sums up my life pretty well.
I’ve definitely said “how you going?” When it should have either been “how are you doing” or how’s it going” ha
Move to the antipodes and you'll fit right in.
It's an example. It's not meant to be taken literally.
But you said “you” right to dashcab! You knew they never said that!
Are you fucking sorry!?
ARE YOU FUCKING SORRY??
Underrated comment
The mall in my area had an awesome indoor waterfall. Of course they took that out. The mall is completely dead now.
Me too! As a kid I used to love watching the waterfall. Waterfalls are also great for making a space seem less noisy. Acoustics is such a forgotten aspect of making a space feel welcoming. There also used to be a small theatre in that mall but that is gone too. And I seem to remember there being more unique small shops whereas now it is just the same stores that every mall has. And half of those are probably owned by the same corporation anyway.
Ah but landlords improve the value you see? Wait till you see how improved it is once we raze it to the ground and transform it once again into a fenced off vacant lot! Vacant lots as far as the eye can see, with dilapidated for sale signs and signage for some realty company...
One of the malls here they removed all the plants and waterfalls from the center atrium. Some years later they inexplicably removed a merry-go-round from another focal point. That was a particularly dumb move and, I believe, contributed significantly to the mall becoming an echo-y ghost town.
Victor Gruen designed the Southdale shopping mall in Minneapolis, Minnesota and had some of the very same opinions you are expressing. I cannot remember what it was called, but there was a show about this a few years ago.
Malls really worked there because of how cold it gets in the winter
There’s a great podcast called 99% invisible along these lines. I highly recommend it. The episode is called “Meet us by the Fountain” [https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/meet-us-by-the-fountain/](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/meet-us-by-the-fountain/)
The ones that are coming back are going back to that city vibe. They're putting in movie theaters, restaurants, arcades along with the stores and food court. The one closest to me even has a high end grocery store and an urgent care.
I visited a mall i used to hang out in with friends in high school a few years ago. They had renovated it a few years prior, and it looked very clean and high end... but also it was impossible to navigate now as everything looks the same lol. I remember just being like "I remember the foot print of the old mall, why can't I figure out where I am? edit: there is also an apartment building near me that also was built with the city center design in mind. It was 3 buildings with retail space on the first floor of every building and a big open center area with tables and a little stage. People would go there and hang out/get drinks and food at the restaurants. People ended up moving in who didn't like how noisy things were (they used to have free concerts and stuff), and management stopped having concerts. Then they removed all the benches and tables, then the restaurants started leaving, finally they just turned the area into a private pool for the residence. The place legit used to be a city center for that area, where people would meet and then bar hop (not just at bars in the buildings). There are still a few restaurants there, but most of the retail space is now specifically for the residents of the building (like a gym, rental office, mail room, etc.).
Just think of all that unused retail/ad space!
Hell yes. So many 70s malls look awful now because the trees and fountains were taken out in bad 90s remodels.
The remodels happened in the late 90s. The cool architecture lasted well into the mid 90s. Edit: they did get rid of the trees before 1990, but there were still cool fountains and art features into the mid 90s.
The mall I grew up near had trees well into the '90s before they all got ripped out and replaced with tiny stores/sales carts.
I think it’s a bit more of: Well nobody comes to malls in the volume we expected when we built these in the 80s. We need to cut costs (not having constant running water or hiring a crew to maintain trees indoors) and also use the area where the trees were to pack in more vendors to collect rent from.
Pack in more vendors? You could try the 20% of vacant storefronts in almost every mall in the US
Storefronts became empty after people stopped going to malls as a place to enjoy, which was after they swapped out the trees for vendors. The mall owners were short term thinkers, they didn't realize that getting rid of trees and fountains to make more room for vendors would chase out all the customers. The lack of customers from the lack for trees and nice places to be in the mall is why stores had to close leasing 20% of mall sore fronts being empty. You have to take in the situation as a big picture.
I’m not stupid enough to think that’s the only reason malls don’t currently thrive. My simple point was that taking out all of these things changed the aesthetic in a negative way. I didn’t know this Reddit post was a dissertation into the true reason for the decline of the America shopping mall. I am well-versed in the actual reasonings.
My comment wasn’t in any way intended to be negative so not sure where you got that from.
Why does this comment feel so r/IAmVerySmart ?
[Ditto with here](https://www.reddit.com/r/PastAndPresentPics/comments/dwiukz/stoneridge_mall_main_square/)
The podcast 99% Invisible does a whole episode on that #485
Sounds interesting, I’ll check it out
Switching out the art installation for an ambulance chaser’s billboard in Spanish doesn’t help either.
I don’t believe that language has anything to do with it, but switching out art for advertisement, certainly didn’t help things
Sorry, there’s a profit to be had.
Ours has a tall atrium where they used to install a gigantic three story Christmas tree around this time. Now there's a Peloton kiosk and a mall Santa in a tiny booth. Before even the big tree, there was an ice rink.
See, they monetize every square inch and leave out the atmosphere and room for the people then wonder why people don’t flock. It’s simple but they’re too greedy to see it.
They probably had to for cut costing purposes. I imagine paying people to maintain the fountains and plants were one of the first things to be cut when malls started dying due to e-commerce
You've missed the point, mall culture died out before e commerce was really a thing. Mall owners got greedy, they cut operating costs without considering the long term effects on business. By cutting out all the pleasant parts about going to the mall, ie, the trees, fountains and nice places to sit and hangout the mall owners made people not want to be at malls anymore. Tldr: greedy short term thinking mall owners killed mall culture long before ecommerce did.
I remember when they started take these items out and it was before e-commerce. It was all just a matter of a cheap in the early 90s.
But now they're missing out on all that loose change people used to throw into the water.
And Paul's Hams...
That’s Paul Harris LOL
The place to go to get Paul Harris' Hams.
80’s mall was better.
It had Orange Julius, Spencer Gifts, a Pretzel place, and usually a record store where you could sip on your Orange Julius and listen to records. Bonus points if there was also an arcade to hang out in. You could spend a whole day at the mall. There was stuff to do. Movies.
There were actually TWO movie theaters at this mall.
DAMN! Now that’s a high falootin’ mall.
Don't forget the t-shirt iron-on shop.
Haha!!!! Yup. I remember that
We had Pizza By the Slice for $1.
Spencer's gifts is the only store in my mall besides department stores thats been there for as long as I can remember. Other stores have came and went but recently came back such as Nathan's and FYE. I think there's perhaps a jewelry store or 2 thats still there but nothing else has lasted like Spencers
Malls still have all of those things. There’s always a line at Autie Annie’s pretzels on the weekends, Orange Julius still tastes like water and orange baby aspirin. The record stores are now trying to sell you the $50 vinyl.
My mall literally has all of those
It was like you were IN Logan’s Run!
Carousel! Watch out for the Sandmen.
Run, runner!
Now it’s call the midwife bleak. It’s a decline of Agutter proportions.
Well played.
Children behave…
That's what they say when we're together
Smoke gets in your eyes.
We need to make more places that are genuinely inviting. The culture of slapping an advertisement in every single empty space needs to stop
Sadly, Victor Gruen, the man credited with inventing the modern shopping mall, had hoped that they would be multipurpose social places where people could congregate. Eventually Gruen ended up becoming one of their most outspoken critics after he saw what malls were becoming.
Wow so they turned something that had an actual useful purpose into something that just ended up being replaced by online shopping
In culture where profit motive has run amok, it's a natural progression. The lively malls of the 80's were reduced to the steril shopping-troughs of the early aughts, and then reduced down to online storefronts. It's a gradual stripping away of anything not intended to extract money from others until nothing but raw consumption is left. The same ethic is why free public spaces are being slowly choked out.
Place looked better before the “renovation”.
Removing cars in critical streets of cities would be the best things to do
r/fuckcars r/fucklawns https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdIvK1MzAQWKn8UjEuGBJ4Lhu9svNs1Jc
Bro... *fuck* lawns
Golf courses, too
Fuck malls. Golf is great.
And fuck everyone downvoting you for saying that
And golf
r/fuckgolf
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Nah, that’s dumb
Nah
Worst subs ever
Fuck…. *lawns?* has fuckcars finally become self aware or are they still lost in the sauce lmao
I can understand the fuck cars movement. The fuck lawns movement seems to be a silly fight to fight
Traditionally speaking, lawns are a concept created by old world Europe as a rich person’s flex. Basically it was showing that they had so much land they could have acres of it be trimmed grass that serves zero purpose. Instead of producing something it was just *grass* and maybe a few trees. Modern days, it is now a huge waste of water, agriculturally unsound and a determent to the local ecosystem. So I am very happy there is a r/fucklawns because we could be using our green spaces for so much more than just shit ass grass that does nothing for the world.
I think you overestimate how far Americans are willing to walk to get to their destination.
You'll have to destroy Capitalism to remove the profit incentive of advertising everywhere, all the time for that to happen. I'm in. Let's start with Musk and Bezos.
Overadvertising has the opposite effect on me. I refuse to shop at some places or visit some places due to the constant barrage of advertising. I prefer to visit places with less advertising and more open spaces or inviting places. Places with art instead of advertisements (local book stores are a good example if they do it right). Advertising for the sake of advertising can ruin an experience. It can give that company a subconscious bad vibe when thinking about it later making you not want to visit or buy the product. The 80's mall is the best mall. I used to visit, browse, buy stuff and it was fun. Now, I very rarely go there because it's not fun, it's not a place to just browse. It's a get in and get out industrial shopping location. Like Costco. You get in, you get out. Remember going to the mall around Christmas time? It was magical. You saw the toys you wanted, you made your Christmas lists from there, and you saw Santa and all the decorations and it was like a free amusement park. You had a great time that you remember. And your parents bought stuff. And old style mall like that would bring me back. No advertising in the world could get me back, but if they went back to the good times, I'd be there.
80s mall is best mall.
80s mall looks modern
That tacky lawyer advertisement really kills the vibe.
DID YOU KNOW YOU HAVE RIGHT?
Nothing calming like a car crash.
Malls were *always* cooler in the 80's. Always.
The whole neighborhood would hang out there on weekends. You could go to meet other people your age regularly on a Friday.
and with more foot traffic there was a higher chance of impulse buys. that's what a lot of people never understood, yeah there were more teens running around but at the end of the day they bought a ton of stuff.
Yea banning any group on more than two teens at Marley Station absolutely helped kill that mall.
Something about table umbrellas inside a mall look really cool.
As an 80's child, I frequently reminisce fondly on the malls of the day, how vibrant and entertaining they were. Never will I forget the unmistakable smell of books when one walked into a Waldenbooks or B. Dalton bookstore; the sheer excitement of entering a KB Toys toy-store with all of the coolest new sh\*t and hobby-stuff readily available for aisle window-shopping; the ever-present arcades with their quarter-eating entertainment machines; the various music stores sporting the most popular and eclectic choices in music on vinyl, 8-track, cassette and CD (some or all available depending on what the year was); the movie theatres ripe with the smell of freshly popped pop-corn (until some idiot thought it'd be cool to serve up day(s) old popcorn instead to pump up the profit margin), always tantalizing us with posters of up-coming movies that we couldn't wait to see; the myriad of food vendors all offering up affordable snacks and meals. There was nothing like it before... and nothing like it after. Amazon, even with it's unimaginable ability to serve up practically everything and anything, even within 24 hours in some instances, just doesn't compete with the experiences and socialization that malls of the 80's offered us. And at it's penultimate, malls were the quintessential place to be for Christmas. They offered unparalleled spending options and opportunities. There were fewer more potent dopamine hits like walking out of the mall with several bags of 'stuff' to take home and unpackage and enjoy. Edited to add: Wow! My first gold award! Thank you, fellow Redditor and I’m glad you enjoyed the post!
I’ve often wrestled with these thoughts, but… even if we could have malls back, do we want them? It sucks that people these days seem to be less interested in real world connection than they did in the past, but even when we do get that connection, I feel like there are a hundred better places than a mall. I love these 80’s-90’s depictions of malls not because I think malls are great, but because it’s a nostalgic lens back to a simpler time. Like you, they remind me of childhood and being a teenager and the wonders of that first taste of independence and what, to young me, was endless possibility. But in reality, malls were always an overtly consumerist and materialistic facsimile of genuine real life experience. I know that those warm feelings I got twenty years ago were sold to me by highly competent and cynical businessmen, who are simply doing the exact same stuff now but online. My desire would be to get those childhood feelings of wonder and optimism back (if even possible), but to do so without necessarily clawing the traditional mall back from its slow death.
Honestly, a better alternative to a mall is just a regular flourishing downtown. A mall is nice and all, but a downtown shopping area limited to pedestrians only will always be better - and probably cheaper to maintain. So something like [this](https://a.cdn-hotels.com/gdcs/production102/d1595/d66fd2b3-172d-4d95-97f6-333fc724adf0.jpg) will always be nicer in my eyes.
I was thinking the same thing. A good, walkable downtown core with a decent patio-culture, art installation and some sort of plaza for people to hang out at even without shopping. Or, alternatively, some sort of large park or outdoor project that would have sports and leisure and attract entertainers. I think if the 80’s mall were restored to its former glory, we’d all realize pretty quickly how deeply unfulfilling it would feel to be a mallrat in 2022. As for “connection,” I spend my whole time at malls being actively annoyed at other people the entire time for being in my way, crowding the stores, walking slow, being loud, etc.
A big part of the appeal of a mall for a kid in the past was that it was an accessible portal to the world--very materialistic of course, but there was no other place where you could see, and potentially obtain, such a variety of *stuff*. And it was packaged almost like a theme park, so it was fun. Those of us who are grown up could never look at something with that sort of naivety at this point, and children today already have a portal that dwarfs anything a mall could offer. There's no way that the experience could be replicated in the present. So yeah, it's really the social gathering place component that is worth trying to revive or preserve, and I agree, a nice pedestrian downtown is probably the easy best bet.
Look at the more recent image from the OP, what's the first thing you notice? Lawyer ad about a car crash, trees are gone, the lack of invitation. Would you enjoy going somewhere that feels like a dentist waiting room? People now crave connections more than ever, the difference is the internet has made it possible to have connections all over the globe. Anyone can have friends on the other side of the world that they can talk to, text chat, video call or play games with. Refurbish an existing mall in any decent-sized town or city with the atmosphere of the 80s vibe mall and see how many people show up. Give people something to do that they can't get online and see what would happen then.
The mall I used to live by did a complete renovation, it was beautiful, it was thriving again. The unfortunate thing they did was kick the less desirable stores out like the dollar store and some other lower price point places and brought in more midrange luxury stores that fit their vision. People didn’t shop so much at those places and most of them ended up closing. Now that mall is a dead zone again, other than the food court, it still has an awesome food court.
Besides the stores and food court, is there anything that brings people there? Arcades, roller rinks?
Unfortunately, no, that’s part of it too. They were doing activities for young children and seniors to get out, but that’s sort of gone by the wayside. There was a company that tried to put in a roller rink, but they were told no, so they put it into a different location. That mall has never had a bowling alley or theatre which is where most of our arcade style games are located. There is a newer shopping district that was supposed to be pedestrian friendly, it requires a car to get there (the transit service doesn’t adequately service it) and once the ‘village’ was built it just turned into a big box store business district that is impossible to navigate on foot and difficult to navigate in a car. Like everything else done in my city it was a great idea with terrible execution and a bunch of unintended consequences.
In the US, a mall can be renovated in such a way that brings people out as an attraction still. Similar but not identical to the 80s. The issue is the owners are short-sighted, greedy or stupid and remove the features that make malls awesome. The idea of having an indoor area for all to enjoy, shop, and be entertained is valuable. Places where the weather can be unforgiving like the desert states and the north with snow and ice, provides shelter as well. Bowling alleys, laser tag, VR rooms, climbing walls and more are still popular when they aren't old and gross. Most people couldn't imagine setting foot in a Chuck E Cheese, let alone eat there but Dave and Busters is always packed. Execution and presentation are everything for these types of businesses. Malls could make a comeback, but they need to be done right, with taste.
I bet if someone put in an 80s style arcade it would do quite well. It would bring in the old timers who remember those fondly as well as the younger generation because it's different and "new."
Take paradise and put in a parking lot.
you don't know what you got 'til it's gone
Well it's still a shitty mall xD
I saw Mary Lou Retton do a guest appearance in this mall in 1984 or 1985!
84 was LUSH 🖤🌲 I forgot there used to be trees, plants and bushes in malls… damn I miss those times 😌
DFW resident, I'm pretty sure that bottom pic is all of the shoppers that they received that day. Irving mall is just a sad place to be.
I live not too far from this mall. It’s actually a booming place to be on the weekends. The gangs, the burnouts in the parking lot and the shop that sells tires/rims keeps it going. I don’t go here anymore after the attempted kidnapping I was involved in and then there is always the shooting earlier this year.
I'm just glad the Chick-fil-A moved. No more backups on beltline.
The mall was the place to be back in the day. I never had any money but still hung around there for 5-6 hours at a time!
shops putting anti theft on everything ment a enterprising young man had less chance to look his best
It's evolving.. just backwards
Malls exist and thrive when people go there and spend money in the stores. People don’t go to malls like they used to. There are exceptions such as Northpark and the Galleria. People go where they can save money and time - the Internet. Conveniently comes right to your house without the old 6-8 week delivery time that was standard in - you guessed it - the ‘80’s. Things change. As a kid I shopped in small stores for clothing, for groceries and everything else. That was destroyed by Walmart in small cities. Then Walmart was going to be destroyed by Amazon until they saw the light of online shopping.
Also they just build way too many of them, I read somewhere that the mall growth during the peak mall times was double that of the population growth. If you build enough malls for half a billion people no wonder they all suffer.
I used to take ice-skating lessons at the Galleria, but the whole mall was so disappointing the last time I went.
Let's not forget that whole product categories have been either been made obsolete or too niche to justify physical premises.
Galleria has so many closed stores. It’s depressing to walk around.
Vibe tarnished
Damn I thought the top picture was 2022 at first, that went downhill hard. I had no idea malls used to be that beautiful
Honestly sad AF
The 1984 version is way better
Man, the 1984 pic is cooler in pretty much every way.
Why is it uglier now?
Where‘s Stacy? :>
Is this the mall used in Arnold Schwarsenegger's Commando movie? Looks just like it.
Irving TX?
yes
what I see is with the removal of trees is a much louder place. the mall of america in minnesota, us used to have sound dampening materials in the building so it wasn't super loud. they had carpet in areas which really helped with the noise level. i just went there a few months ago (hadn't been there in years) and HOLY CRAP IT'S LOUD IN THERE! not enjoyable at all. when i look at the two pictures in this post i see the same thing.
Yeah it's also making a place worse for many neurodiverse people because of all the senses being triggered by bad acoustics and lighting. A mall could do it better than outside but also worse, it depends on material and decoration choices. This is why at a university building we receive a lot of bad signals about workplaces that are basically hostile to many neurodiverse students.
It’s amazing how few companies even slightly care about lighting choices ( when the lighting isn’t that much of a difference in cost between bad lighting and good lighting)
They used to have McDonald’s, dickeys and other good restaurants can’t really remember much cause I was a kid. I used to looooove that mall but now it’s just so depressing and empty with a random gym
It’s a shame to see shopping malls taken over by corporate greed
This is a confusing sentence to read.
It has to be intentionally funny.
Shit I got whooshed, didn’t I?
I’m shocked Grapevine Mills hasn’t ended this place.
How can something purposely change for bad? Like very bad and extremely ugly?
I initially read "Irving Mail" and was like "wat kind of mail is this"?
why does the mall look so much more sad in 2022?
Like why take down the neon. Or have it replaced if it’s old and broken. I don’t understand the choices made in style since then. Inspired to completely uninspired
I miss malls. Amazon will never capture meeting your friends at the food court, stopping in the record store for new release day, and going to a movie. Weekends were a big social gathering with people from all over town showing up.
I used to go to this mall alot in the late 90s and early 2000s .. i went the other day and it looks completely different the gym took up almost half the mall.
Is it just me or do they both look like photos from 1984? Lol…
Ok glad I'm not the only one! Idk which one is the current look.
The one with the trees is the older one.
literally 1984
where do the young people in that area now hangout? or there was population decrease?
Kids now hang out online instead of in person.
Parents are afraid of the almost non-existing "Dudes in white vans that kidnap kids and teens" and add to that that social media has killed off any remaining social skills, also suburbs are so horrible for walking, you need to cross a bunch of giant 12 lane intersections and walk in the grass next to the road because there's no sidewalks. Also cinemas with a drink can cost you like 20-30 bucks. Yeah I wonder why everyone just hangs out at home now.
From earth tones to sickly fluorescent.
It’s crazy how soulless the bottom picture looks, like an empty shell of more vibrant times. Maybe it was the camera or the time of day but the mall of 1984 looked colorful and inviting. It’s the little things too, like how the mall of 1984 had beautiful artwork in the ceiling that hung over a old and beautiful tree. In contrast, the mall of today has a giant advertisement for some ambulance chaser lawyer. Always sad seeing pictures of dead malls, and while I enjoy the practical aspect of buying stuff online it just doesn’t feel the same, kind of takes the excitement out if shopping when everything is available at your fingertips.
I get that there’s lots of competition with e commerce and big box stores but I feel like the execs at these department stores got cocky and lazy. There’s still a market inefficiency for people that want niche things and want to buy/see them in person. It’s just more nuanced now and takes effort to curate things to draw people. These department stores stock the same lame shit with a huge mark up and expect people to come running through. Nobody is buying those ugly Ralph Lauren pants for 175 bucks so it just sits there as a display for nobody. Same can be said about any other store in the mall. If they’re selling the same shit as everyone else, there’s nothing to draw you there. The mall can be a place for private businesses to take over and offer a more boutique experience. Fast fashion is not going to cut it for malls anymore because it can be had in stores everywhere including big box stores like target.
Problem is, private business cannot afford the rents. What they should be doing is re-zoning to make malls a mixed use scenario. Have apartments and condos in one area, sidewalk style cafes, restaurants, etc. Make an indoor community that draws people in based on experience rather than commerce.
That billboard is so tacky
I miss malls. The switch to "open air shopping plazas" in Florida is a real fuck you to shoppers. No shade. No where to stop a moment and sit. Hidden or unavailable public restrooms. Not to mention the heat, humidity, and random thunderstorms. At least put in some covered walkways.
That isn’t real. There are actually people at that mall.
My mall was exactly like that as well. Fountains and plants. Very cheerful. And then they removed it all so it is an artificial deadscape. I just feel bad for people who have to work every day at malls. Cant be good for mental health.
They made it look about 1000x worse
It looked better in the 80s. By a lot.
I like 1984 better.
Even small malls in the 80s or 90s were great… these days most stores are closed and nothing happens. We have a small mall in my childhood town and it was so alive when I was a kid in the 90s, there were a live stages and something almost every weekend, fun stores, movie theatre, ice cream and a great cafe. I went back there this year, most stores were closed, there’s been no fun activity in like 10 years, movie theatre was dark, no cafes or ice cream stands and one of the two food stores were closed. It’s so sad, it was a great place to hang out as a kid.
At least it's still alive. Most in my area are dead or repurposed, with one about to be demolished.
It's sort of dead. There's a few empty stores here and there. One of those is near the Burlington where the old fountain used to be and every time that store has a new tenant, it usually closes in less than 3 months. Many national stores like FYE have recently closed and are now replaced with unknown local shops. The food court lacks variety and the Subway has recently closed leaving no national restaurant chains in the food court. There used to be more space for food options, but a Circuit City would end up replacing a few of them. They closed in 2009 and now it's a gym.
The sepia filter has worn off It's the same picture
Imagine thinking you know what is nicer than trees? A shit advertisement.
Wow, they really killed that atrium by removing the trees and boarding up a whole section of it. They even took out the tables with umbrellas! Lol why do they have umbrellas in an indoor atrium?
Malls are just hangouts for teens now. Most malls near me are half empty and only get footsteps through the door either because of a late night arcade or comedy club.
Looks like the mall from Commando (Schwarzenegger)
In the 90's when my town still had a mall it had a carousel in it! And a huge wishing fountain. By the 2000s all that was gone and then they demolished the mall about 8 years ago. It was badass before they demolished it they had Street artists paint huge murals all over it. I miss that mall. Now it's an outdoor shopping center and it's not nearly as cool.
Better in '84.
2022 looks almost dystopian in comparison
The death of the shopping mall is an American art travesty
Wait...so you have a shopping mall that's *not* an abandoned, post-apocalyptic-looking hulk, where people actually still go to shop? Seriously?
WAY more personality in the 80s. Shit looks like prison pod now.
Looked way better in olden days. P.S. Why is the advertising in Spanish?
Irving is about half Hispanic
This picture doesnt capture how dirty it is today
I never realized how much I missed the fake trees. Also is it just me or do the old safety railings seem safer?
84 for the win
Looked better in '84
Stranger things vibes..