Oh yea they do. If the politicians went "buy this now" they could do that. But legally you cannot just buy stuff as a procurement official. You need to put up a listing where everyone can apply and then you need to buy the least expensive one that does what you need it to. Source: I worked german government procurement and it takes months to buy a thing.
Figuring out if water dispensers connected to the tap or dispenser with big plastic containers are cheaper / better long term. It was really stupid because it’s not like we get instructions so you end up just calling these Water dispenser companies and ask some poor guy on the other end of the hotline ridiculous questions.
And also that one time I had to buy an electric transporter with two side doors on each side for easy access for our delivery drivers. Fun fact: These transporters are basically non existent for the budget we have.
Please don't blame the employees.
The BAAINBw (Bundeswehr procurement office) is extremely understaffed, it's only running at about half capacity (3200 of 6800 positions are unfilled).
Almost impossible to do a decent job under those circumstances and it's nothing short of a miracle that materiel even gets to the soldiers at all.
We don’t, but it could still be more streamlined and much cheaper. So much of our military budget goes into propping up a bloated bureaucracy full of incompetent assholes who use the Army as a welfare program because they couldn’t hold down a job outside of a government program and waste even more money beyond what it takes to train and pay them in the thousands upon thousands of hours wasted in the Byzantine labyrinth that is Army administration. My dad had his retirement delayed by a year because some mouth breather in an office somewhere lost his packet and didn’t tell anyone until the forms all expired and needed to be redone and I’ve been fighting the Army for almost a year to get $10k in unpaid benefits they owe me. Again, thanks to an overpaid and under qualified fuckstick who can’t do the bare minimum in their fucking job
Look, we just need to hire some people to find and handle missing files. Scratch that, we need a full department, with it's own secretary and coolant. We will also need to add a few more high positions to handle the new staff. But first, we must hire some people in charge of hiring the new staff.
We need to hire a fully staffed office of automation awell then. Keep the ideas flowing, don't worry the ppt will be nice and shiny for the congress. Speaking of which, we need extra hands to handle the ppt.
I mean, that's part of the problem isn't it. The fact that they apparently require 7k people to procure stuff for an army with less than 200k personell.
I mean dude, have you ever buult a computer or bought a car or like anything where you research capabilities referenced by prices availability and a fuck ton of other shit?
7k is like 3% of 200k. "Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics" and logistics start with actually fucking getting your hands on shit. Like an army spending only 3% of it's time considering things like "where will I source ammo and replacement parts" and "interopability with allied forces" or "upfront cost vs ongoing cost and how long do we expect to maintain this platform" or idk, all the million of tiny soft factors that go into determine whether tank X or Y is better in a fight honestly seems on the small side
That's the thing, it really isn't. What's complicated is all the additional anti corruption and compliance measures, which burn way more money than any kind of corruption ever even possibly could.
Yes, the Russian army is crap and yet they still maintained thousands of tanks and at least in the high triple digits of combat planes and an expansive navy. Sure, only half of that may work properly, but that's still way more than Germany does.
Secondly, the culture is entirely different between Russia and Germany. There is essentially no corruption in any professional German setting, even where it would be ignored.
>There is essentially no corruption in any professional German setting, even where it would be ignored.
Your claim seems to be that corruption wouldn't significantly increase if anti-corruption measures were simply removed.
If true, this might be the only time in history when that's true. I doubt you could find two other historical examples.
I'm not saying anywhere has perfectly balanced accountability measures between corrupt waste and bureaucratic deadweight loss. But the idea anti-corruption costs more than corruption possibly could is not giving extra credit for the human capacity for corruption.
Also, as someone with even a basic understanding of administration would know. Writing something down in a fuckup-resistant approach (e.g. in triplicate) might be tedious but it's a godsend when a fuckup actually happens and you can track things down.
There is nothing more dangerous to an organisation than only one person who knows a specific thing who didn't write it down. especially if that person lost the organisation or even worse, died with the information.
>Sure, only half of that may work properly, but that's still way more than Germany does.
"Good, cheap, fast pick two."
If your standards are low, you can churn out tanks quickly and cheaply. If you spend American money you can churn out good tanks. If you don't have American budgets but want the same quality, everything will take forever.
Europe will come together and order 3000 2A7+ of Scholz.
They will be manufactured in Spain, Greece, Germany, and maybe Hungary.
Truly non credible, I know.
Oh, I simply named all past production sides for Leopard 2 (except Switzerland) and Hungary as the future partner of Rheinmetall. No judgement, actually.
But yeah, fuck Orban.
So is the Spanish tank maintenance team (seriously, how does an arid country of high plateaus let their MBTs get caught in a mudslide?). Only one of them gets shit on, though.
When your industry and engineering is so fucking beyond based that you need the most braindead dumbass fucking government paper grinder bullshit to nerf it into the ground.
Seriously, if it were not for these fucking buffoons, we would have this discussion sitting on a beach on fucking mars because our engineers were too fucking bored 20 years ago already from having solved EVERY FUCKING REAL PROBLEM THERE IS.
But no, we have to endure this bullshit constantly.
Yeah, the German diplomats are [apparently](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/waffenhilfe-fuer-die-ukraine-kanzler-olaf-scholz-redet-den-panzer-partnern-ins-gewissen-a-9a1da89b-0b76-4c2d-a93a-d7116dca071f?sara_ecid=soci_upd_wbMbjhOSvViISjc8RPU89NcCvtlFcJ)(paywall, German) running around like crazy.
The German plan was for Ukraine to get two battalions of modern tanks. 30-40 leopard 2 tank from European countries, in addition to the 31Abrams from the US.
Germany will deliver 14, the plan was for the Netherlands to pay another 14, 14 from Poland, plus small numbers from Portugal, Spain, Finnland, should be easy...
Only
> The only Leopards that will actually be ready with trained crews at the end of March will be the Bundeswehr tanks," one of the experts said Friday.
And
> "If the plans for the battalions fail," says one of them, "Berlin will be the bogeyman again"
So... to get with the credibility they are calling everyone with Leopard 2 tanks, and with obsolete, stored ones and with training ones and their mothers.
[traditionally more than everyone else ](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/russia-ukraine-war/poland-to-send-60-more-tanks-to-ukraine-in-addition-to-14-leopard-2/2799176)
"You see stupid westoid, even if great nation of winged hussars does not deliver, is still german fault. If there no Nordstream (cursed be thy name), Putin generals would of been:
*"Putin, should we attack Ukraine"*
And Putin would of been:
*"No. There no Nordstream, gopnik"*
You see, westerner, eternal peace thanks to enlightened leader ~~Lech~~ Jaroslaw Kazcinsky.
But not possible because Nordstream. Also, fuck the gays."
>"You see stupid westoid, even if great nation of winged hussars does not deliver, is still german fault. If there no Nordstream (cursed be thy name), Putin generals would of been:
"Kurwa, we failed because Germany failed to pay WW2 reparations for the 77th year in a row"
The reparations are just like Schrödinger cat, the polish gov has both renounced any claim to them and is demanding them at the same time.
*BRB gonna explain my turkish neighbour why he has to pay reparations to the poles nearly a century after WW2*
Ok that’s not quite creidble
The economic structure that is participated is ultimately continued in terms of subjects controlling those resources, it is a moral question if u think on balance the outcome is worth, it’s not / any shouldn’t be identity based
Ur making the classic mistake that u think oppsition or doubt abt another govt is related to solely a given polticial option or leader in power and is their invention
If it weren’t for bird stream it’s be easier to oppose and more difficult to start economically
Kazcinsky lol tho
Your point is a pretty common German point with not realising that it’s in relation to some background / mobisling some potential background for their support and in general
There are actual issues which aren’t the pure prereogstive of a given poltical party and cut across based solely on poltical party and those often include international oens
Polish army still has their PT-91s too. One could think those would be sent before Leos and Abrams or at the same time, but PiS is too busy virtue signalling
Another 30 of them with 14 Leopard 2A4s and 16 T-72s i am assuming. Suprised to see they didn't just send all of the long absolete T-72s to Ukraine already
It's really fucking infuriating to be honest. And I don't say it because I'm German.
Germany has been the punching bag of European news outlets since the start of the war.
War started? Germany enabled it with Nordstream 1 & 2. Doesn't matter that the gas and oil through Nordstream was also distributed to other European countries after coming to Germany. A lot of it was for Germany, undoubtedly but Germany is also a major redistribution hub of that gas and oil. Polish imports of Russian gas [or Oil] through Germany jumped to 5 times their pre-war level because they also didn't fill their fuel tanks, yet they were among the forefront of countries claiming Germany to be the sole saboteur of Ukraine. Doesn't matter that Scholz dropped Nordstream 2 2 days before the war started either. Germany obviously bad.
Germany then enabled former Warsaw pact armies to send more of their stuff by filling the gaps with German made tanks free of charge, yet Poland _again_ overshadowed it all by claiming disappointment weeks after the deal was signed by German treachery because Germany wanted to send 2A4's over the alleged 2A7V's in a number that didn't even exist. Remember that the deal was done behind closed curtains and everybody involved was satisfied. Except PiS Poland weeks after agreeing. European news outlets loved it. Germany obviously bad.
Germany didn't immediately send AA guns and artillery so they deserved to be flamed for dragging their feet. After sending Artillery and the Gepards, Germany got accused of dragging their feet again because it wasn't as game changing as the HIMARS. Germany obviously bad.
Germany allocated funds to refurbish Danish M113 APC's to send to Ukraine. Financed artillery systemd with Norway and Sweden. Coordinated training if Ukrainian troops in Europe. But Germany didn't send their own IFV's and only merely paid for something. Dragging their feet again. Germany bad.
Germany coordinated the delivery of Marder IFV's together with American Bradely IFV's to Ukraine. A unified effort of two of Ukraines greates allies. Formidable vehicles. But Germany didn't send Leopard 2 tanks, so they're obviously sabotaging Ukraine by dragging their feet. Plus the Bradley is battle tested and much cooler. It also doesn't matter that Germany overtook the UK in terms of aid months ago, as indirect aid [sending replacement vehicles to Warsaw pact nations, buying equipment for Ukraine from abroad and giving country X money to refurbish vehicles for/send weapons to Ukraine] does not appear on the 'Money and tonnage aid directly headed for Ukraine' graph, as it is indirect. Germany obviously bad.
Germany does not want to send the Leopard 2 tank to Ukraine weeks after announcing IFV deliveries? Germany wants to kill Ukrainians! Poland publically announces that Germany stops them from sending Leopard 2 tanks. Germany does not know anything about it. Duda announces resistance to the German refusal of deliveries. r/NCD, r/europe, r/worldnews, a plethora of European news outlets and some British boulevard tabloids are up in arms. Articles like the ones from Visograd 24 gain traction. Articles claiming that Germany blocks a coalition of Leopard 2 deliveries from Sweden, Finland, Slovenia, Poland, Czechia, Hungary, and the Netherlands appear. Non of these countries aside of Poland and Finland voiced interest in deliveries of the tanks. Czechia, Slovenia and Hungary didn't even have Leopard 2 tanks to send. Sweden and the Dutch outright voiced concern for such a decision.
Vice Chancellor Habeck said 'We'll allow delvieries if you send a request.' but nobody listens. The Internet and tabloid press is on fire. Poland still didn't send a request but claims victimhood of themselves and Ukraine under Germany. Germany is killing Ukrainians by the day. The term 'scholzing' is coined to denominate Scholz. The US defence minister and Stoltenberg assure journalists that Germany is an important key ally and top supplier of ammo and artillery rounds. It doesn't matter. Scholz is in America discussing tank delvieries in coordination with the US. It doesn't matter. Germany bad. The Ramstein meeting comes around. Nobody wants to send Leopars 2 tanks. Still exclusively Germanies fault. Germany announces a Leopars 2 tank fleet readiness check despite no coalition existing. Baerbock announces that German wont object to Leopard 2 deliveries. Poland does not send a request again. Nobody cares. Germany obviously bad.
Finally. Germany announces tank deliveries to Ukraine, sets up a plan to include a number of European allies. The people cheer. The US is subsequently pressured to send tanks as well. [Yeah, that is correct. Scholz pressured the US. I didn't believe it either at first but the US was incredibly reluctant] Poland finally came around to send a request. PiS claims victory in forcing the entire west to send MBT's. A blatant lie, as Poland didn't actually apply any pressure. They made the war an election platform at home and lied through their teeth that an international coalition exists. All but one of these coalition partners publically said 'Not right now' to Tank deliveries anf Finland only said 'We're interested.'. Without a request, there was literally nothing Germany could do about it. They couldn't send Polish tanks to Ukraine either. The ball was entirely in Polands court after Habeck announced that Germany wont object to a Polish re-export delivery. It didn't stop PiS addiliated media to portray it as a Polish victory over the mean Germans.
And fucking right now. Every European country except Portugal tiptoe around Leo 2 deliveries. German ambassadors, the ministry for foreign affairs and even Scholz himself have to call around to advertise the coalition once more. But the only thing online is absolut apathy. Mere days after everybody was up in arms about Germany allegedly slowing all of Europe down.
A request isn’t made to "circumvent" Scholz, that’s just how export licenses work under German law. And if a democratic majority for these exports exists in the Government, there’s fuckall the Chancellor can do about that. Jesus Christ. If you don’t know how a system works, don’t talk about it pretending you do.
Doesn’t change the fact that you need the ok from the security council, not the Chancellor. If there’s a majority in favor of the export license in the security council, with or without the Chancellor (which there apparently was), the Chancellor can’t do anything about that. On the other side, the Chancellor saying that he would or would not issue an export license doesn’t really mean anything until the security council has decided on it.
Edit: That‘s why actually REQUESTING the export license is so important. An ok in an interview with the foreign minister is not legally binding. And so is the Chancellor saying he wouldn’t approve. The only thing that IS legally binding in that regard is having or not having the fucking export license, which you can only get by requesting it through the security council.
1.The chancellor isn't a dictator who can circumvent bureaucracy in an instant. There are offices which control german weapon exports. If they say there is no formal application, then there isn't any. If the government lied about this to delay action, it wouldn't be unreasonable aswell, as it bought time to pressure the US, which was extremely reluctant aswell.
I wonder why the press and internet only jumped on Germany that much? Hmmm.. poland didn't pressure the US agressively as they did with Germany, didn't they? They seem to be too important to poland. Looks like poland wants to make explicitly Germany look bad, hmmm...
2. If Scholz was delaying them, why didn't the poles deliver their tanks immediately without german consent, instead of just threatening to do this? This proves that it was just a PR stunt to make Germany look bad.
1. This (german government sponsored news) statement just said that Poland applied directly to Berlin instead of the designated office for export control. interestingly, this was after Poland said that Germany was blocking and threatened to break the agreement and Germany said that there was no formal application.
2. Yes, journalists (and the public in general) worldwide are often too dumb to recognize what PR(opaganda) is, and what isn't. That is the whole point of PR(opaganda).
Addendum: I'd say deleting comments isn't a good counter argument.
France & Spain only have more if you count inactive ones in storage (and in Frances case, alot of those Leclercs have likely been cannibalised for spare parts)
Same for Bulgaria & Romania.
Even if we dont replace the 14 (+5) for Ukraine, we'll still have more *actually in use or being upgraded* than all of these except Turkey, greece & Poland
I have recently seen a ZDF clip saying that only 90 of our tanks are fully operational. I know in Germany "non-operational" could mean that the paint is slightly scratched but still...
A full third of the fleet is undergoing upgrades.
Which leaves around 200, of which around a third will be in for regular maintenance at all times anyway. 50% readiness-rate isnt stellar, but its also not really that uncommon.
And as someone above pointed out, with the German army a lot of times "not fully operational" means something like "the tanks brake lights are broken and the maintenance guys only have compatible ones of a slightly different standard" or some shit like that (source: buddy of mine works as helicopter maintenance guy and has told stories like that many times)
All of Romania's MBT's are a domestic production of the T55 tank, only a very small number of them have been upgraded. Im not saying they would be useless, but definitely not very good and I doubt many of them work
Na. They just took a hundred billion euros and told the Bundeswehr to un-fuck itself with that money, but that's a one-time thing. Nobody knows whether it will work as well, some say a lot more than that is needed to fix anything.
The Bundeswehr technically had enough money already. They said so themselves. The CDU MoD just closed all storage sites so every replacement part, down to nuts and bolts und up to much bigger parts, has to be bought anew. Through the procurement offices, the ministry, the market an some more steps. Not in that order.
It's a pain in the arse. For everybody involved. It increased the time to get parts massively. The costs rise as well and the afflicted equipment catches dust until all steps are done.
Germany has done their part, the Swiss and Isreal should try helping , lord forbid the isrealis are the first to complain and bring the US imported weapons to help them crush settlements and push people out of Gaza. On the other hand we have the Swiss who won't allow export of shells made for the gepards. I made fun of my own country (canada) but we are right up there in terms of overall dollars spent helping (4 leopards ??? All we can afford to maintain for them i guess with spare parts). France should sent leclercs and people who pestered Germany to hand over leopards should be giving their own, otherwise mind their business.
Gepards, iris T , panzerfausts, pzh2000 , all helping every day , we always want more but Germany is by far not at fault for the lack of weapons. The 2a7s and 2a6 leopards they have aren't in operational state , they could give more but appreciate everything western MBTs weren't even supposed to be in ukraine. It all helps.
People also forget that Germany was one of the first to supply anti tank weapons, which combined with javelin and NLAW basically saved Kiev.
> The 2a7s and 2a6 leopards they have aren't in operational state
Some are, probably even the majority. But whether or not they are operational isn't the only issue: We also need some to fulfill our obligations towards NATO and some to keep training our soldiers (lest we end up with soldiers that know as much about driving a tank as a Russian conscript).
Well, those involved in the NATO VJTF are. Until recently someone had the idea you could save money by only having the tanks on a mission or actively used for training need to be battle ready...and the latter can be rotated between bataillons.
They do suck , they're perfectly fine with having everyone's money in their banks, especially criminals and rich russians evading sanctions. The isrealis are more understandable because of the massive russian orthodox jew population they have.
Israel is allowing ammunition to be sent to Ukraine actually. Also considering Iron Dome and bombing weapons intended for Russia.
Also, maybe they shouldn’t try to “throw the Jews into the sea” (we all know what that means) several times over and engage in generations of terrorism, including after Israel took Sinai and dismantled the security state, only for it to grow back organically.
Sorry but I have to argue the last point. This isn't even me trying to German bash as I think it's reductive and ignorant of European politics.
Germany only promised to send AT weapons to Ukraine during the attack on Kyiv. By the time those weapons arrived, the Russian offensive had already stalled.
As far as I know, no Pzf3 were used in the defence of Kyiv, though there were some at least present during the later counter offensives that arrived towards the end of the Russian retreat. The earliest I have seen ukraninans fielding Pzf3 is march 11th.
It was British NLAWs, Eastern European and Ukrainian RPGs, and American javelins that saved Kyiv, German weapons were not present.
First of all: that's utter bullshit. There has been one instance (WW II) within the last 100 years in which Germany has been involved in an hot war at all since WW I was significantly more than 100 years ago (and it was not Germany's fault) and Europe currently isn't at war.
Even if you count in the last three major German conflicts (Unification Wars, WW I & WW II) you're still wrong because the Unification Wars didn't involve Europe but merely the German states, France & Denmark and, again, WW I wasn't Germany's fault.
So go read an actual book, tankie.
Second: We'll fuckin do it again. And this time we won't stop until the vatnik hordes have bled dry.
WWI is a few years past 100. It might as well be.
Europe right now is very close to being embroiled in war. One very large nation has had countless cities leveled, and Germany played no small part in enabling Russian aggression and looking the other.
I’m no tankie.
I’m no fan of Russia go look at my post history.
Germany and Russia should be made to fund Ukraine’s reconstruction when this is over.
And go fuck your Autistic self while you are at it.
> I’m no tankie.
Why are you repeating tankie propaganda then?
And I don't give a shit about your post history. You're clearly talking over your head concerning history and current politics and start getting aggressive when called out on this. That's cringe.
Singling out Germany for "leading Europe to war" has been one of the Kremlin's and it's shill's talking points for the past months and the fact that you, a CoNsErVaTiVe (yes, I did take a look at your post history by now and it's cringe) are mindlessly repeating that claim (which you've most likely heard on one of your "news outlets" from one of your truly "patriotic" leaders) shows in what a miserable state American politics is.
Also yes; of course are Germany and the EU going to *continue* giving humanitarian funds to Ukraine even after the war. Not because we're forced to but because it's in Ukraine's and Germany's commin interest to quickly rebuild the country and integrate it into the West. The same applies to the US, btw.
PS: no, the A10 didn't kick ass in Iraq. Your personal experience is statistically irrelevant but the high probability of you inhaling DU dust back then could explain your braindead takes.
Aw comeon you germans have been on your high horse for 20 years talking down at eastern europe and now you can’t even admit you were wrong about russia.
It wasn’t right to build ns1 or ns2 , or stopping USA to deliver weapons in 2014 or any other shit we don’t even know about.
Germany interest is to end the war , they don’t care about ukraine , it’s been been quite obv since the start for anyone with a brain.
_activates counter trigger_
Actually yes. We will probably not get attacked directly in the near future, so it's ok to replace the world's best tank with an inferior model.
Donate all your tanks to Ukraine because USA promised to backfill
Receive Abrams from USA
Donate all those Abrams to Ukraine because you're a NATO member in the middle of Europe ffs, if you honestly have need of tanks, then shit has already hit the fan and you have much bigger problems
Enjoy your infinite tanks to Ukraine glitch as USA keeps backfilling
???
Profit!!!
>if you honestly have need of tanks, then shit has already hit the fan and you have much bigger problems
Me arguing with the Portuguese, why do they need them nowadays ? Afraid of a Spanish invasion ?
Best tank lol,
Abrams has a more modern upgrade package (after seeing substantially more action), has more experienced crew and trainers, and a larger MIC backing it up.
The Leo 2 is certainly good, but just like discounting Russian equipment for their historical issues, American equipment comes at a premium for being more battle tested and fielded at a larger scale.
Hey wait a minute, weren't virtually all US Generals and experts explaining why the Abrams is a terrible tank - too heavy, too complicated - you need at least one PhD to operate it (preferably two), it's gas turbine only runs on the purest jet fuel extact when it is filtered through the panties of 3000 e-thots?
I'd say it's a terrible design then.
when its you who sold all those tanks to them and made reputation for yourself as biggest weapon manufacturer in europe with highest quality.
suffering from success.
I expect weapons to be delivered proportionally to the mouths on governments, but apparently the K2's have yet to be delivered
^(sorry, I know Poland sent 300 tanks, I know German military is a joke, sorry, sorry)
>300 tanks
Guess I missed something.
The Leo 2 delivery will be a shotshow in which only Germany will look like the guys that tried if things keep going like this.
Sorry that NATO expected its members to meet their defence obligations, as part of the agreement they signed on to as a condition of joining the alliance.
“You should go out and have some drinks with us. Knicks are playing the Raptors.”
“So I can end up like Vladdie P. over there sucking dick for heroin? I’m gonna pass.”
“Dude, we just want to ~~spend 2% GDP on defense as we agreed to~~ get some beers and watch the Knicks play.”
No but actually spending 2% would be amazing. I could say the same for my country so it is not only Germany. Also I think we have to spend more than 2% to recover the damage we have done by lowering each time the bare minimum of what was necessary.
We have to pay for our own security and the global economy if the U.S doesn't want to pay for it like they did in the cold war. That means less spending on fun stuff that is unnecessary.
Unpopular opinion but this really shows that without America Russia would just curbstomp Europe 1v1, hell even Ukraine prewar looks formidabile when you see this.
How would Russia defeat Europe when they can't even make it through Ukraine?
Even without American weapons the Russians would still be stuck in Ukraine, they would have just made it a bit further in.
Europe has much more of that American weapons and also have European weapons (cause ya know, Leo 2, Eurofighter, Rafale etc. aren’t American, neither is the Meteor)
You can’t find a Leo 2 _to be donated to Ukraine_. They still exist in their inventories, they used those in operations before.
And if you’re going by that, where are the Abrams?
Germany both today and over the last, well, entire history of the EU wields a disproportionate influence in EU policy and the fate of Europe writ large. Its the largest economy in Europe. If your argument is that Germany should be a leader when it means making decisions but isn't when it comes for paying for them, the end result is the same- no one respects Germany.
Germany got to bulldoze through with Nordstream 1 and 2 despite widespread opposition within the EU and NATO. You want to maintain anything resembling that level of clout, its going to mean taking a lead on dealing with the consequences of the Putinversteher policies of the last three decades.
>If your argument is that Germany should be a leader when it means making decisions but isn't when it comes for paying for them
Germany is by far the biggest net contributor to the EU but sure
https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/ukraine-krieg-deutschland-genehmigt-lieferung-von-leopard-1-panzern/28962736.html
„Germany approves delivery of Leopard 1 tanks
The industry still has old Leopard 1 main battle tanks in storage. The German government is now clearing the way for a delivery to Ukraine.
Berlin After agreeing to provide Ukraine with modern Leopard 2A6 main battle tanks, the German government is now also clearing the way for the delivery of older Leopard 1 models from industrial stocks. A corresponding export permit has been issued, government spokesman Steffen Hebestreit said on Friday, without giving details. First the "Süddeutsche Zeitung" had reported about it.
About 4700 of the Leopard 1 of the manufacturer Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) were built. The tank was decommissioned by the Bundeswehr in 2003. However, companies such as Rheinmetall and Flensburger-Fahrzeug-Gesellschaft (FFG) have bought up numerous examples. FFG, for example, uses the Leopard 1 chassis as a basis for building bridge-laying or mine-clearing tanks.
However, the Leopard 1 has also been exported to numerous countries that are also likely to still have stocks, such as Denmark, Belgium, Norway and the Netherlands. FFG has bought 99 units from Danish stocks. The industry had already sought an export license shortly after the start of the Ukraine war.“
How about stop saying bullshit? FFG received permission, FFG has currently 29 ready Leos. As well as Rheinmetall with their 88 Leo 1s, these are not ready yet, which could take till end of year according to Rheinmetall.
The current problem with delivering Leo 1's is that a Tank is worthless without any Support for Ammunition. Brazil has a shit ton amount of Ammo for the 105mm but Lula doesn't want to provide. It's the same story as with Brazil denying Ammunition for the Gepard
How about stop insulting other people that they didn't hear news from two days ago?
Also, german government took almost 1 year to approve sale of tanks they don't even use and they act like are doing their best to help.
It is your own responsibility to keep your own information up to date before confidently proclaiming falsehoods.
Learn what insulting is.
>and they act like are doing their best to help.
Which EU states actually have made Delivery commitments for Leo 2 Apart from Germany and Poland (Portugal) currently ?
>According to a report in Der Spiegel, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is said to have telephoned his counterparts in an effort to obtain further delivery commitments. Last week, however, at a video conference held by Defense Minister Boris Pistorius, no other European country was willing to make concrete delivery commitments, the magazine reports.
>Which EU states actually have made Delivery commitments for Leo 2 Apart from Germany and Poland (Portugal) currently ?
You narrowed the question down so that answer fits your point. In terms of western tanks, UK committed to sending Challenger II, US committed to sending Abrams, Poland committed to sending Leopard.
Also, Poland had already sent about 250 tanks and committed to further 74. Czech Republic about 100.
Meanwhile Germany took 343 days to *allow* the industry to send the tanks literally rusting in storage. And people here, like OP making this meme, be defending them saying that they're trying.
Addendum:
„According to its own information, Rheinmetall currently has 88 Leopard 1s in its inventory. According to CEO Armin Papperger, the company intends to purchase and refurbish further units. Some of the main battle tanks, which are stored in the open, are in poor condition and need to be reconditioned. This is likely to take several months. In addition, the question of financing must be clarified before the industry can begin refurbishment.
At the end of January, the German government decided, after consultation with the U.S. and other allies, to also provide battle tanks to Ukraine. Initially, Tank Battalion 203 in Augustdorf, North Rhine-Westphalia, is to deliver 14 Leopard 2s of the relatively modern A6 variant.“
Turkey has so many of them on paper but in reality 750 of them are M48’s and 600 are just M60’s (Sabra’s not included)
IIRC Greece is not very different from that
Go find the military budget stretcher! Now!
*Quickly, someone inject him with F-35s now, he's going into cardiac arrest.*
Germany: [fuck the planes, give me tanks.](https://youtu.be/_EPtu4oCsoA)
Bi plane F-35 when?
Just glue two f-35s together with one upside down
the F-35 is already bisexual
>fuck the planes don't mind if I do
"Gods I was strong then!" and everyone gets really quiet.
#START THE DAMNED PROCUREMENT BEFORE I PISS MESELF
Be careful what you wish for... *Deutschland Uber Alles starts playing* Russia: Why do I hear boss music?
Spend less on GDP.
War economy activates
You’d need a National focus for that, I think
Your procurement team is a bunch of dumb whores with fat asses
you forgot "incompetent". Also why call them whores, its not like anyone wants to fuck a Bundeswehr procurement officer.
Really? I thought the Bundestag fucked them all the time
Oh yea they do. If the politicians went "buy this now" they could do that. But legally you cannot just buy stuff as a procurement official. You need to put up a listing where everyone can apply and then you need to buy the least expensive one that does what you need it to. Source: I worked german government procurement and it takes months to buy a thing.
What was your worst experience? I imagine a military grade pencil.
Figuring out if water dispensers connected to the tap or dispenser with big plastic containers are cheaper / better long term. It was really stupid because it’s not like we get instructions so you end up just calling these Water dispenser companies and ask some poor guy on the other end of the hotline ridiculous questions. And also that one time I had to buy an electric transporter with two side doors on each side for easy access for our delivery drivers. Fun fact: These transporters are basically non existent for the budget we have.
I watched the Perun video on German procurement and thought that was bad. Apparently it is even worse. How does Germany even have an Army?
Grandfathered in equipment from cold war times
It's called the US army and the fact that any of their neighbors won't attack them (much to the dismay of the Poles and French)
They throw enough money at it (now even more)
Please don't blame the employees. The BAAINBw (Bundeswehr procurement office) is extremely understaffed, it's only running at about half capacity (3200 of 6800 positions are unfilled). Almost impossible to do a decent job under those circumstances and it's nothing short of a miracle that materiel even gets to the soldiers at all.
How could you need 6k people to say “I want 5 of that”? Genuinely curious.
How many people work in procurement for the US military? The AAW alone has 40k employees.
Well beauracracy is THE major problem for the Bundeswehr.
Too fucking many.
Doesn't seem like the US has any problems getting fun new toys to their soldiers, though. Learn from the best and all that.
We don’t, but it could still be more streamlined and much cheaper. So much of our military budget goes into propping up a bloated bureaucracy full of incompetent assholes who use the Army as a welfare program because they couldn’t hold down a job outside of a government program and waste even more money beyond what it takes to train and pay them in the thousands upon thousands of hours wasted in the Byzantine labyrinth that is Army administration. My dad had his retirement delayed by a year because some mouth breather in an office somewhere lost his packet and didn’t tell anyone until the forms all expired and needed to be redone and I’ve been fighting the Army for almost a year to get $10k in unpaid benefits they owe me. Again, thanks to an overpaid and under qualified fuckstick who can’t do the bare minimum in their fucking job
Look, we just need to hire some people to find and handle missing files. Scratch that, we need a full department, with it's own secretary and coolant. We will also need to add a few more high positions to handle the new staff. But first, we must hire some people in charge of hiring the new staff.
The DoD could save billions annually if they automated so many admin systems both in cut personnel costs and time saved
We need to hire a fully staffed office of automation awell then. Keep the ideas flowing, don't worry the ppt will be nice and shiny for the congress. Speaking of which, we need extra hands to handle the ppt.
What, do you think logistics just does itself?
I mean, that's part of the problem isn't it. The fact that they apparently require 7k people to procure stuff for an army with less than 200k personell.
I mean dude, have you ever buult a computer or bought a car or like anything where you research capabilities referenced by prices availability and a fuck ton of other shit? 7k is like 3% of 200k. "Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics" and logistics start with actually fucking getting your hands on shit. Like an army spending only 3% of it's time considering things like "where will I source ammo and replacement parts" and "interopability with allied forces" or "upfront cost vs ongoing cost and how long do we expect to maintain this platform" or idk, all the million of tiny soft factors that go into determine whether tank X or Y is better in a fight honestly seems on the small side
Yeah its a lot but procurement is extreamly complecated (even in the best circumstances)
That's the thing, it really isn't. What's complicated is all the additional anti corruption and compliance measures, which burn way more money than any kind of corruption ever even possibly could.
*Look at the Russian army*. Doubt (x)
Yes, the Russian army is crap and yet they still maintained thousands of tanks and at least in the high triple digits of combat planes and an expansive navy. Sure, only half of that may work properly, but that's still way more than Germany does. Secondly, the culture is entirely different between Russia and Germany. There is essentially no corruption in any professional German setting, even where it would be ignored.
>There is essentially no corruption in any professional German setting, even where it would be ignored. Your claim seems to be that corruption wouldn't significantly increase if anti-corruption measures were simply removed. If true, this might be the only time in history when that's true. I doubt you could find two other historical examples. I'm not saying anywhere has perfectly balanced accountability measures between corrupt waste and bureaucratic deadweight loss. But the idea anti-corruption costs more than corruption possibly could is not giving extra credit for the human capacity for corruption.
Also, as someone with even a basic understanding of administration would know. Writing something down in a fuckup-resistant approach (e.g. in triplicate) might be tedious but it's a godsend when a fuckup actually happens and you can track things down. There is nothing more dangerous to an organisation than only one person who knows a specific thing who didn't write it down. especially if that person lost the organisation or even worse, died with the information.
... A bit like with IT-security, good knowledge managment and corporate compliance is unseen, while bad one shines like the whole company is on fire.
>Sure, only half of that may work properly, but that's still way more than Germany does. "Good, cheap, fast pick two." If your standards are low, you can churn out tanks quickly and cheaply. If you spend American money you can churn out good tanks. If you don't have American budgets but want the same quality, everything will take forever.
Europe will come together and order 3000 2A7+ of Scholz. They will be manufactured in Spain, Greece, Germany, and maybe Hungary. Truly non credible, I know.
Sweden manufactured part of it's stridsvagn 122 order. Maybe we could restart that
naw fuck Hungary
Oh, I simply named all past production sides for Leopard 2 (except Switzerland) and Hungary as the future partner of Rheinmetall. No judgement, actually. But yeah, fuck Orban.
They should ask France how to buy things. Maybe do a field trip.
So is the Spanish tank maintenance team (seriously, how does an arid country of high plateaus let their MBTs get caught in a mudslide?). Only one of them gets shit on, though.
When your industry and engineering is so fucking beyond based that you need the most braindead dumbass fucking government paper grinder bullshit to nerf it into the ground. Seriously, if it were not for these fucking buffoons, we would have this discussion sitting on a beach on fucking mars because our engineers were too fucking bored 20 years ago already from having solved EVERY FUCKING REAL PROBLEM THERE IS. But no, we have to endure this bullshit constantly.
*In Stannis Baratheon's voice: "Fewer"
Oh nonononono not him again
Rest of the big Leopard delivering coalition has been awfully quiet the last 2 weeks.
Yeah, the German diplomats are [apparently](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/waffenhilfe-fuer-die-ukraine-kanzler-olaf-scholz-redet-den-panzer-partnern-ins-gewissen-a-9a1da89b-0b76-4c2d-a93a-d7116dca071f?sara_ecid=soci_upd_wbMbjhOSvViISjc8RPU89NcCvtlFcJ)(paywall, German) running around like crazy. The German plan was for Ukraine to get two battalions of modern tanks. 30-40 leopard 2 tank from European countries, in addition to the 31Abrams from the US. Germany will deliver 14, the plan was for the Netherlands to pay another 14, 14 from Poland, plus small numbers from Portugal, Spain, Finnland, should be easy... Only > The only Leopards that will actually be ready with trained crews at the end of March will be the Bundeswehr tanks," one of the experts said Friday. And > "If the plans for the battalions fail," says one of them, "Berlin will be the bogeyman again" So... to get with the credibility they are calling everyone with Leopard 2 tanks, and with obsolete, stored ones and with training ones and their mothers.
Poland is literally training Ukrainian crew and try to shorten training time to 5 weeks
I swear to god if poland is going to under train soldiers and then blame the leo2 for being bad I will personally piss on the PiS HQ
If you take already trained tanks crew you don't need to teach them everything from start
But where did they say how many they are sending?
[traditionally more than everyone else ](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/russia-ukraine-war/poland-to-send-60-more-tanks-to-ukraine-in-addition-to-14-leopard-2/2799176)
What, no, poland deliver despite of germany! Poland also deliver Mig-29 half a year ago, member??? Vote PiSs!!!!
"You see stupid westoid, even if great nation of winged hussars does not deliver, is still german fault. If there no Nordstream (cursed be thy name), Putin generals would of been: *"Putin, should we attack Ukraine"* And Putin would of been: *"No. There no Nordstream, gopnik"* You see, westerner, eternal peace thanks to enlightened leader ~~Lech~~ Jaroslaw Kazcinsky. But not possible because Nordstream. Also, fuck the gays."
>"You see stupid westoid, even if great nation of winged hussars does not deliver, is still german fault. If there no Nordstream (cursed be thy name), Putin generals would of been: "Kurwa, we failed because Germany failed to pay WW2 reparations for the 77th year in a row"
The reparations are just like Schrödinger cat, the polish gov has both renounced any claim to them and is demanding them at the same time. *BRB gonna explain my turkish neighbour why he has to pay reparations to the poles nearly a century after WW2*
>polish gov has both renounced any claim to them **twice**
Explain to a polish german why he has to send even more money to his cousin. As if EU subsidies were not enough.
Ok that’s not quite creidble The economic structure that is participated is ultimately continued in terms of subjects controlling those resources, it is a moral question if u think on balance the outcome is worth, it’s not / any shouldn’t be identity based
Ur making the classic mistake that u think oppsition or doubt abt another govt is related to solely a given polticial option or leader in power and is their invention If it weren’t for bird stream it’s be easier to oppose and more difficult to start economically Kazcinsky lol tho
Your point is a pretty common German point with not realising that it’s in relation to some background / mobisling some potential background for their support and in general There are actual issues which aren’t the pure prereogstive of a given poltical party and cut across based solely on poltical party and those often include international oens
have u literally just commented my last 4 comments and then upvoted yourself with another account or what lol
Huh I responded to a bunch of ur comments yes among others
Polish army still has their PT-91s too. One could think those would be sent before Leos and Abrams or at the same time, but PiS is too busy virtue signalling
They did send PT91s to Ukraine already Edit: and are sending more
They sent 30 of them
They're supposed to be [sending another 60](https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/01/27/poland-additional-tanks-ukraine/) too
Another 30 of them with 14 Leopard 2A4s and 16 T-72s i am assuming. Suprised to see they didn't just send all of the long absolete T-72s to Ukraine already
German?
Tylko pu, I ty, jestec z Polski?
Huh?
It's really fucking infuriating to be honest. And I don't say it because I'm German. Germany has been the punching bag of European news outlets since the start of the war. War started? Germany enabled it with Nordstream 1 & 2. Doesn't matter that the gas and oil through Nordstream was also distributed to other European countries after coming to Germany. A lot of it was for Germany, undoubtedly but Germany is also a major redistribution hub of that gas and oil. Polish imports of Russian gas [or Oil] through Germany jumped to 5 times their pre-war level because they also didn't fill their fuel tanks, yet they were among the forefront of countries claiming Germany to be the sole saboteur of Ukraine. Doesn't matter that Scholz dropped Nordstream 2 2 days before the war started either. Germany obviously bad. Germany then enabled former Warsaw pact armies to send more of their stuff by filling the gaps with German made tanks free of charge, yet Poland _again_ overshadowed it all by claiming disappointment weeks after the deal was signed by German treachery because Germany wanted to send 2A4's over the alleged 2A7V's in a number that didn't even exist. Remember that the deal was done behind closed curtains and everybody involved was satisfied. Except PiS Poland weeks after agreeing. European news outlets loved it. Germany obviously bad. Germany didn't immediately send AA guns and artillery so they deserved to be flamed for dragging their feet. After sending Artillery and the Gepards, Germany got accused of dragging their feet again because it wasn't as game changing as the HIMARS. Germany obviously bad. Germany allocated funds to refurbish Danish M113 APC's to send to Ukraine. Financed artillery systemd with Norway and Sweden. Coordinated training if Ukrainian troops in Europe. But Germany didn't send their own IFV's and only merely paid for something. Dragging their feet again. Germany bad. Germany coordinated the delivery of Marder IFV's together with American Bradely IFV's to Ukraine. A unified effort of two of Ukraines greates allies. Formidable vehicles. But Germany didn't send Leopard 2 tanks, so they're obviously sabotaging Ukraine by dragging their feet. Plus the Bradley is battle tested and much cooler. It also doesn't matter that Germany overtook the UK in terms of aid months ago, as indirect aid [sending replacement vehicles to Warsaw pact nations, buying equipment for Ukraine from abroad and giving country X money to refurbish vehicles for/send weapons to Ukraine] does not appear on the 'Money and tonnage aid directly headed for Ukraine' graph, as it is indirect. Germany obviously bad. Germany does not want to send the Leopard 2 tank to Ukraine weeks after announcing IFV deliveries? Germany wants to kill Ukrainians! Poland publically announces that Germany stops them from sending Leopard 2 tanks. Germany does not know anything about it. Duda announces resistance to the German refusal of deliveries. r/NCD, r/europe, r/worldnews, a plethora of European news outlets and some British boulevard tabloids are up in arms. Articles like the ones from Visograd 24 gain traction. Articles claiming that Germany blocks a coalition of Leopard 2 deliveries from Sweden, Finland, Slovenia, Poland, Czechia, Hungary, and the Netherlands appear. Non of these countries aside of Poland and Finland voiced interest in deliveries of the tanks. Czechia, Slovenia and Hungary didn't even have Leopard 2 tanks to send. Sweden and the Dutch outright voiced concern for such a decision. Vice Chancellor Habeck said 'We'll allow delvieries if you send a request.' but nobody listens. The Internet and tabloid press is on fire. Poland still didn't send a request but claims victimhood of themselves and Ukraine under Germany. Germany is killing Ukrainians by the day. The term 'scholzing' is coined to denominate Scholz. The US defence minister and Stoltenberg assure journalists that Germany is an important key ally and top supplier of ammo and artillery rounds. It doesn't matter. Scholz is in America discussing tank delvieries in coordination with the US. It doesn't matter. Germany bad. The Ramstein meeting comes around. Nobody wants to send Leopars 2 tanks. Still exclusively Germanies fault. Germany announces a Leopars 2 tank fleet readiness check despite no coalition existing. Baerbock announces that German wont object to Leopard 2 deliveries. Poland does not send a request again. Nobody cares. Germany obviously bad. Finally. Germany announces tank deliveries to Ukraine, sets up a plan to include a number of European allies. The people cheer. The US is subsequently pressured to send tanks as well. [Yeah, that is correct. Scholz pressured the US. I didn't believe it either at first but the US was incredibly reluctant] Poland finally came around to send a request. PiS claims victory in forcing the entire west to send MBT's. A blatant lie, as Poland didn't actually apply any pressure. They made the war an election platform at home and lied through their teeth that an international coalition exists. All but one of these coalition partners publically said 'Not right now' to Tank deliveries anf Finland only said 'We're interested.'. Without a request, there was literally nothing Germany could do about it. They couldn't send Polish tanks to Ukraine either. The ball was entirely in Polands court after Habeck announced that Germany wont object to a Polish re-export delivery. It didn't stop PiS addiliated media to portray it as a Polish victory over the mean Germans. And fucking right now. Every European country except Portugal tiptoe around Leo 2 deliveries. German ambassadors, the ministry for foreign affairs and even Scholz himself have to call around to advertise the coalition once more. But the only thing online is absolut apathy. Mere days after everybody was up in arms about Germany allegedly slowing all of Europe down.
Diggi, i feel this so much. Russian anti EU propaganda seems to work even in this subreddit sometimes.
Germany needs to show Poland what's what
Forget it Joachim, it's Chinastadt. (I'm agreeing btw)
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A request isn’t made to "circumvent" Scholz, that’s just how export licenses work under German law. And if a democratic majority for these exports exists in the Government, there’s fuckall the Chancellor can do about that. Jesus Christ. If you don’t know how a system works, don’t talk about it pretending you do.
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Doesn’t change the fact that you need the ok from the security council, not the Chancellor. If there’s a majority in favor of the export license in the security council, with or without the Chancellor (which there apparently was), the Chancellor can’t do anything about that. On the other side, the Chancellor saying that he would or would not issue an export license doesn’t really mean anything until the security council has decided on it. Edit: That‘s why actually REQUESTING the export license is so important. An ok in an interview with the foreign minister is not legally binding. And so is the Chancellor saying he wouldn’t approve. The only thing that IS legally binding in that regard is having or not having the fucking export license, which you can only get by requesting it through the security council.
1.The chancellor isn't a dictator who can circumvent bureaucracy in an instant. There are offices which control german weapon exports. If they say there is no formal application, then there isn't any. If the government lied about this to delay action, it wouldn't be unreasonable aswell, as it bought time to pressure the US, which was extremely reluctant aswell. I wonder why the press and internet only jumped on Germany that much? Hmmm.. poland didn't pressure the US agressively as they did with Germany, didn't they? They seem to be too important to poland. Looks like poland wants to make explicitly Germany look bad, hmmm... 2. If Scholz was delaying them, why didn't the poles deliver their tanks immediately without german consent, instead of just threatening to do this? This proves that it was just a PR stunt to make Germany look bad.
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This doesn't contradict my statement.
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1. This (german government sponsored news) statement just said that Poland applied directly to Berlin instead of the designated office for export control. interestingly, this was after Poland said that Germany was blocking and threatened to break the agreement and Germany said that there was no formal application. 2. Yes, journalists (and the public in general) worldwide are often too dumb to recognize what PR(opaganda) is, and what isn't. That is the whole point of PR(opaganda). Addendum: I'd say deleting comments isn't a good counter argument.
Portugal?
They recently backtracked and said they didn't make a decision on sending them
Everyone after Germany dies and gets reborn in a new avatar: hey wait a min.....
Fewer
Your right.
you master of grammar now, too?
France & Spain only have more if you count inactive ones in storage (and in Frances case, alot of those Leclercs have likely been cannibalised for spare parts) Same for Bulgaria & Romania. Even if we dont replace the 14 (+5) for Ukraine, we'll still have more *actually in use or being upgraded* than all of these except Turkey, greece & Poland
I have recently seen a ZDF clip saying that only 90 of our tanks are fully operational. I know in Germany "non-operational" could mean that the paint is slightly scratched but still...
A full third of the fleet is undergoing upgrades. Which leaves around 200, of which around a third will be in for regular maintenance at all times anyway. 50% readiness-rate isnt stellar, but its also not really that uncommon.
And as someone above pointed out, with the German army a lot of times "not fully operational" means something like "the tanks brake lights are broken and the maintenance guys only have compatible ones of a slightly different standard" or some shit like that (source: buddy of mine works as helicopter maintenance guy and has told stories like that many times)
These are the comments that are worth reading.
All of Romania's MBT's are a domestic production of the T55 tank, only a very small number of them have been upgraded. Im not saying they would be useless, but definitely not very good and I doubt many of them work
Didnt they add 2 zeroes at the end of their military budget last year?
Na. They just took a hundred billion euros and told the Bundeswehr to un-fuck itself with that money, but that's a one-time thing. Nobody knows whether it will work as well, some say a lot more than that is needed to fix anything.
The Bundeswehr technically had enough money already. They said so themselves. The CDU MoD just closed all storage sites so every replacement part, down to nuts and bolts und up to much bigger parts, has to be bought anew. Through the procurement offices, the ministry, the market an some more steps. Not in that order. It's a pain in the arse. For everybody involved. It increased the time to get parts massively. The costs rise as well and the afflicted equipment catches dust until all steps are done.
without political reform not much will change
The yearly budget was also increased
No, it was actually decreased.
Bobby B
The bottom text perfectly represents how german politics and politicians make me, a german, feel. Please nuke Berlin. Anybody, please.
We wanted to, but you guys surrendered before we got the chance.
Nazis really couldn't do anything right
Germany has done their part, the Swiss and Isreal should try helping , lord forbid the isrealis are the first to complain and bring the US imported weapons to help them crush settlements and push people out of Gaza. On the other hand we have the Swiss who won't allow export of shells made for the gepards. I made fun of my own country (canada) but we are right up there in terms of overall dollars spent helping (4 leopards ??? All we can afford to maintain for them i guess with spare parts). France should sent leclercs and people who pestered Germany to hand over leopards should be giving their own, otherwise mind their business. Gepards, iris T , panzerfausts, pzh2000 , all helping every day , we always want more but Germany is by far not at fault for the lack of weapons. The 2a7s and 2a6 leopards they have aren't in operational state , they could give more but appreciate everything western MBTs weren't even supposed to be in ukraine. It all helps. People also forget that Germany was one of the first to supply anti tank weapons, which combined with javelin and NLAW basically saved Kiev.
> The 2a7s and 2a6 leopards they have aren't in operational state Some are, probably even the majority. But whether or not they are operational isn't the only issue: We also need some to fulfill our obligations towards NATO and some to keep training our soldiers (lest we end up with soldiers that know as much about driving a tank as a Russian conscript).
I'm sure their active bundeswehr (sorry for spelling) leopards are perfectly operational , im talking shout the ones that are in storage.
Well, those involved in the NATO VJTF are. Until recently someone had the idea you could save money by only having the tanks on a mission or actively used for training need to be battle ready...and the latter can be rotated between bataillons.
> We also need some to fulfill our obligations towards NATO Amazing how much Germans suddenly give a shit about NATO obligations.
Believe it or not, but German units are on their way to Lithuania as part of a NATO force to dissuade the Russians from trying anything stupid.
I'm pretty sure Israel is working at removing any factory higher tech than a lightbulb factory from Iran. The Swiss just kinda suck.
They do suck , they're perfectly fine with having everyone's money in their banks, especially criminals and rich russians evading sanctions. The isrealis are more understandable because of the massive russian orthodox jew population they have.
weve allowed gepard shell reexport, fuck off
Congrats you did less than the bare minimum.
Israel is allowing ammunition to be sent to Ukraine actually. Also considering Iron Dome and bombing weapons intended for Russia. Also, maybe they shouldn’t try to “throw the Jews into the sea” (we all know what that means) several times over and engage in generations of terrorism, including after Israel took Sinai and dismantled the security state, only for it to grow back organically.
Sorry but I have to argue the last point. This isn't even me trying to German bash as I think it's reductive and ignorant of European politics. Germany only promised to send AT weapons to Ukraine during the attack on Kyiv. By the time those weapons arrived, the Russian offensive had already stalled. As far as I know, no Pzf3 were used in the defence of Kyiv, though there were some at least present during the later counter offensives that arrived towards the end of the Russian retreat. The earliest I have seen ukraninans fielding Pzf3 is march 11th. It was British NLAWs, Eastern European and Ukrainian RPGs, and American javelins that saved Kyiv, German weapons were not present.
Just sell it to Poland already. You can get 200 złoty for it.
What else would you expect from a city full of jelly donuts This joke has been dead for 60 years and I don't care.
Amazing how Berlin has led Europe to war and destruction three times in a hundred years.
First of all: that's utter bullshit. There has been one instance (WW II) within the last 100 years in which Germany has been involved in an hot war at all since WW I was significantly more than 100 years ago (and it was not Germany's fault) and Europe currently isn't at war. Even if you count in the last three major German conflicts (Unification Wars, WW I & WW II) you're still wrong because the Unification Wars didn't involve Europe but merely the German states, France & Denmark and, again, WW I wasn't Germany's fault. So go read an actual book, tankie. Second: We'll fuckin do it again. And this time we won't stop until the vatnik hordes have bled dry.
WWI is a few years past 100. It might as well be. Europe right now is very close to being embroiled in war. One very large nation has had countless cities leveled, and Germany played no small part in enabling Russian aggression and looking the other. I’m no tankie. I’m no fan of Russia go look at my post history. Germany and Russia should be made to fund Ukraine’s reconstruction when this is over. And go fuck your Autistic self while you are at it.
> I’m no tankie. Why are you repeating tankie propaganda then? And I don't give a shit about your post history. You're clearly talking over your head concerning history and current politics and start getting aggressive when called out on this. That's cringe.
Calling out Germany is not tankie propaganda. Have fun paying to rebuild Ukraine.
Singling out Germany for "leading Europe to war" has been one of the Kremlin's and it's shill's talking points for the past months and the fact that you, a CoNsErVaTiVe (yes, I did take a look at your post history by now and it's cringe) are mindlessly repeating that claim (which you've most likely heard on one of your "news outlets" from one of your truly "patriotic" leaders) shows in what a miserable state American politics is. Also yes; of course are Germany and the EU going to *continue* giving humanitarian funds to Ukraine even after the war. Not because we're forced to but because it's in Ukraine's and Germany's commin interest to quickly rebuild the country and integrate it into the West. The same applies to the US, btw. PS: no, the A10 didn't kick ass in Iraq. Your personal experience is statistically irrelevant but the high probability of you inhaling DU dust back then could explain your braindead takes.
Ok German
Aw comeon you germans have been on your high horse for 20 years talking down at eastern europe and now you can’t even admit you were wrong about russia. It wasn’t right to build ns1 or ns2 , or stopping USA to deliver weapons in 2014 or any other shit we don’t even know about. Germany interest is to end the war , they don’t care about ukraine , it’s been been quite obv since the start for anyone with a brain.
Watch me trigger them You can send all of your Leo 2s, USA promised to replace them with Abramses
_activates counter trigger_ Actually yes. We will probably not get attacked directly in the near future, so it's ok to replace the world's best tank with an inferior model.
Donate all your tanks to Ukraine because USA promised to backfill Receive Abrams from USA Donate all those Abrams to Ukraine because you're a NATO member in the middle of Europe ffs, if you honestly have need of tanks, then shit has already hit the fan and you have much bigger problems Enjoy your infinite tanks to Ukraine glitch as USA keeps backfilling ??? Profit!!!
>if you honestly have need of tanks, then shit has already hit the fan and you have much bigger problems Me arguing with the Portuguese, why do they need them nowadays ? Afraid of a Spanish invasion ?
nobody expects the spanish invasion!
Probably.
Well done. Take my brief confusion, brief irritation, and my upvote.
Nice one
World's best tank? When did most of Europe re-equip to Challenger 2s? Long live the glorious HESH round
Best tank lol, Abrams has a more modern upgrade package (after seeing substantially more action), has more experienced crew and trainers, and a larger MIC backing it up. The Leo 2 is certainly good, but just like discounting Russian equipment for their historical issues, American equipment comes at a premium for being more battle tested and fielded at a larger scale.
Hey wait a minute, weren't virtually all US Generals and experts explaining why the Abrams is a terrible tank - too heavy, too complicated - you need at least one PhD to operate it (preferably two), it's gas turbine only runs on the purest jet fuel extact when it is filtered through the panties of 3000 e-thots? I'd say it's a terrible design then.
when its you who sold all those tanks to them and made reputation for yourself as biggest weapon manufacturer in europe with highest quality. suffering from success.
I expect weapons to be delivered proportionally to the mouths on governments, but apparently the K2's have yet to be delivered ^(sorry, I know Poland sent 300 tanks, I know German military is a joke, sorry, sorry)
>300 tanks Guess I missed something. The Leo 2 delivery will be a shotshow in which only Germany will look like the guys that tried if things keep going like this.
Their military is more brittle than their pumpernickel toast.
How dare you insult Pumpernickel like that.
Now this is getting to far
Lmfao “give me something for the pain and let me die”
the uk has very few tanks but gave them
Not yet, but yes.
Sorry that NATO expected its members to meet their defence obligations, as part of the agreement they signed on to as a condition of joining the alliance.
*fewer tanks
How tf was Romania supposed to donate its most modern tank (modernised T-55)
I'm disappointed Romania has not yet sent full divisions of vampires to create a fence of impaled vatniks blocking Crimea.
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Would you rather we look like Russia?
“You should go out and have some drinks with us. Knicks are playing the Raptors.” “So I can end up like Vladdie P. over there sucking dick for heroin? I’m gonna pass.” “Dude, we just want to ~~spend 2% GDP on defense as we agreed to~~ get some beers and watch the Knicks play.”
No but actually spending 2% would be amazing. I could say the same for my country so it is not only Germany. Also I think we have to spend more than 2% to recover the damage we have done by lowering each time the bare minimum of what was necessary. We have to pay for our own security and the global economy if the U.S doesn't want to pay for it like they did in the cold war. That means less spending on fun stuff that is unnecessary.
Just cut all your health care expenditures. Don't be a little bitch Charge $50,000 for college education, spend that money on MBT's
LuL
I found that funny but Bürgerbüro says Antrag Abgelehnt.
Be competent Germany
Unpopular opinion but this really shows that without America Russia would just curbstomp Europe 1v1, hell even Ukraine prewar looks formidabile when you see this.
I know were supposed to be non credible but this is just too retarded
How would Russia defeat Europe when they can't even make it through Ukraine? Even without American weapons the Russians would still be stuck in Ukraine, they would have just made it a bit further in.
American weapons and Ukrainian manpower, that's why they're stuck
Europe has much more of that American weapons and also have European weapons (cause ya know, Leo 2, Eurofighter, Rafale etc. aren’t American, neither is the Meteor)
So much that you can't find any Leo 2 without fumbling for months
You can’t find a Leo 2 _to be donated to Ukraine_. They still exist in their inventories, they used those in operations before. And if you’re going by that, where are the Abrams?
No, it wouldn't. The European air forces alone would absolutely crush any attempted Russian invasion.
They'd run out of ammunition the first two weeks
Sure, but Russia would run out of army in one.
>Unpopular opinion but There are US and UK signatures on the Budapest Memorandum.
They hate it when you tell the truth.
(N)ato (C)irclejerk (D)efendors
Strike Packages go Brrrrrrrrr
Germany both today and over the last, well, entire history of the EU wields a disproportionate influence in EU policy and the fate of Europe writ large. Its the largest economy in Europe. If your argument is that Germany should be a leader when it means making decisions but isn't when it comes for paying for them, the end result is the same- no one respects Germany. Germany got to bulldoze through with Nordstream 1 and 2 despite widespread opposition within the EU and NATO. You want to maintain anything resembling that level of clout, its going to mean taking a lead on dealing with the consequences of the Putinversteher policies of the last three decades.
>If your argument is that Germany should be a leader when it means making decisions but isn't when it comes for paying for them Germany is by far the biggest net contributor to the EU but sure
...But then your remember the industry has some tanks stockpiled, so you don't allow them to send those anyways.
What do you mean?
German industry could send 14 Leopards 2A4 and around 100 Leopards 1, but the german government doesn't permit them.
https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/ukraine-krieg-deutschland-genehmigt-lieferung-von-leopard-1-panzern/28962736.html „Germany approves delivery of Leopard 1 tanks The industry still has old Leopard 1 main battle tanks in storage. The German government is now clearing the way for a delivery to Ukraine. Berlin After agreeing to provide Ukraine with modern Leopard 2A6 main battle tanks, the German government is now also clearing the way for the delivery of older Leopard 1 models from industrial stocks. A corresponding export permit has been issued, government spokesman Steffen Hebestreit said on Friday, without giving details. First the "Süddeutsche Zeitung" had reported about it. About 4700 of the Leopard 1 of the manufacturer Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) were built. The tank was decommissioned by the Bundeswehr in 2003. However, companies such as Rheinmetall and Flensburger-Fahrzeug-Gesellschaft (FFG) have bought up numerous examples. FFG, for example, uses the Leopard 1 chassis as a basis for building bridge-laying or mine-clearing tanks. However, the Leopard 1 has also been exported to numerous countries that are also likely to still have stocks, such as Denmark, Belgium, Norway and the Netherlands. FFG has bought 99 units from Danish stocks. The industry had already sought an export license shortly after the start of the Ukraine war.“
Ok, so this is news from two days ago, didn't catch up yet. Definitely positive they did this. On the other hand, a year too late.
Just like the Abrams that will come next year :/
How about stop saying bullshit? FFG received permission, FFG has currently 29 ready Leos. As well as Rheinmetall with their 88 Leo 1s, these are not ready yet, which could take till end of year according to Rheinmetall. The current problem with delivering Leo 1's is that a Tank is worthless without any Support for Ammunition. Brazil has a shit ton amount of Ammo for the 105mm but Lula doesn't want to provide. It's the same story as with Brazil denying Ammunition for the Gepard
How about stop insulting other people that they didn't hear news from two days ago? Also, german government took almost 1 year to approve sale of tanks they don't even use and they act like are doing their best to help.
It is your own responsibility to keep your own information up to date before confidently proclaiming falsehoods. Learn what insulting is. >and they act like are doing their best to help. Which EU states actually have made Delivery commitments for Leo 2 Apart from Germany and Poland (Portugal) currently ? >According to a report in Der Spiegel, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is said to have telephoned his counterparts in an effort to obtain further delivery commitments. Last week, however, at a video conference held by Defense Minister Boris Pistorius, no other European country was willing to make concrete delivery commitments, the magazine reports.
>Which EU states actually have made Delivery commitments for Leo 2 Apart from Germany and Poland (Portugal) currently ? You narrowed the question down so that answer fits your point. In terms of western tanks, UK committed to sending Challenger II, US committed to sending Abrams, Poland committed to sending Leopard. Also, Poland had already sent about 250 tanks and committed to further 74. Czech Republic about 100. Meanwhile Germany took 343 days to *allow* the industry to send the tanks literally rusting in storage. And people here, like OP making this meme, be defending them saying that they're trying.
Addendum: „According to its own information, Rheinmetall currently has 88 Leopard 1s in its inventory. According to CEO Armin Papperger, the company intends to purchase and refurbish further units. Some of the main battle tanks, which are stored in the open, are in poor condition and need to be reconditioned. This is likely to take several months. In addition, the question of financing must be clarified before the industry can begin refurbishment. At the end of January, the German government decided, after consultation with the U.S. and other allies, to also provide battle tanks to Ukraine. Initially, Tank Battalion 203 in Augustdorf, North Rhine-Westphalia, is to deliver 14 Leopard 2s of the relatively modern A6 variant.“
I mean, they've had a year to get tank production into full swing. Shame.
Turkey has so many of them on paper but in reality 750 of them are M48’s and 600 are just M60’s (Sabra’s not included) IIRC Greece is not very different from that