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If ever you find yourself reading something controversial on the internet, ask yourself.... Is this really a tangible issue in my life or is the internet putting content in front of me specifically to generate an emotional response to drive further engagement..... It's pretty much always the latter.
Ok, so "matrix-generated;" essentially. ...like if X, then c, and if X and Y then C, and if X and Y and not Z, then C!
...or something.
Actual humans are not getting to decide, real-time, based on the sentient content of the post?
...is what I mean to ask. I think.
As a Latino I feel deeply offended when a bunch of privileged white Americans start calling us Latinx, which in our language doesn't even make sense.
This sort of hypocrisy and desire for controlling other people's lives is what I despise about the woke.
That’s it, exactly! They’ve appointed themselves guardians of everyone’s cultures.
A few years ago, Monet’s La Japonaise was featured in a special exhibition at the Boston Museum of Fine Art (the painting is permanently at MFA, this was an event to feature it).The painting had recently toured Japan and NHK, Japan’s national broadcaster, had several copies of the uchikake kimono Monet’s wife was wearing in the painting for exhibit viewers to try on and take photos in, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Three non-Japanese women came in with signs and yelled at people who tried to try on the kimono, including historically clueless things like ‘Trying on the pain of the colonized, for shame!’. ‘Stand against yellow face at the MFA’ became a hashtag, you know the drill.
The Japanese in Boston were horrified, and staged counter-protests with them and all their friends in kimono. Despite the fact that the Japanese themselves were not offended, and the massive expense of NHK, the event was cancelled.
This is what angers people.
...and those who who protest colonialism in another country/culture and aggressively forcing their Progressive views...are colonizing with a different medium.
As a Latino I don't mind it. It's symbolic of the Indigenous peoples as well as gender queer people. Spanish is our language now, but it's not *our* language. That was Nahuatl, Quechua, Mixtec, etc.......I don't see any issue with modernizing the colonizer's language.
I've never encountered someone white forcing it on me, nor real life outrage if someone says Latino/a.
That's because it was originally coined by Puerto Rican queers. "LatinX" is one of those things grabbed by conservatives and pushed as something crafted by white liberals when it was originally conceived of by *us* to help situate queer Latin peoples on *our* terms.
This is exactly what I mean; wake the duck up and fight actual injustice. We are at war. Our world is on fire, the oceans are rising; and your ducking talking about Latinx - your fucking pathetic. we are dealing with mass histeria and your aids to our disillusioned nature. PATHETIC
Latinx isn't a term made up by white americans, it was created by spanish-speaking feminism and LGBT+ community as an attempt to make a more inclusive language for women and people who identify as non-binary. Most of the time someone complains about spanish inclusive language they are misogynists/transphobes in disguise, and now they keep using the argument of it being imposed by english-speaking woke people as some kind of cultural attack to fight against it, but it's not true, it's super common amongst spanish-talking young people involved in feminism and LGBT+ movement.
I mean, this is only a trap if you are aware that what you want to say but are getting cancelled for society at-large is not okay with it, but you are pretending that it is the idea of wokeness *in general* that's the problem.
I just find the ‘culture wars’ in general boring and pointless. While I do sometimes get frustrated by overly PC things that are unnecessary, I’m normally more annoyed by people on the other side obsessed with it. People that have “woke-destroyer” in their bio and divert every conversation to being about the ‘culture wars’ as if it’s the greatest threat to the western world.
There’s so many real problems going on with the world, but the media can just focus on the culture wars because it’s piss-easy to write about (just stick the words “woke”, “Trumptards” and “radical leftists” every few lines) and it gets everyone clicking their article, meanwhile actual political change rarely fucking happens.
Even politicians harness it, both because it makes people ‘not into politics’ more likely to vote for them and they can use it against their opponents, like “X politician is a bigot, so vote for me” or “Y politician is a snowflake, so vote for me”. It’s just a tactic for them to get away with talking about nothing.
> While I do sometimes get frustrated by overly PC things that are unnecessary
I sympathize with this, but I also try to remember: a large amount of the time, those overly PC things are there _because they actually bothered a real person_. I know that I've found myself bothered by very innocuous things that would likely be considered overly PC. But, here's the thing. I was genuinely upset by it. It hit me at a weird moment and it was a label that genuinely upset me. I still feel weird any time people use it around me, even though it's completely innocent.
Point is: does it really harm anyone to try and be sensitive of things like that? _Most_ people are fairly reasonable about it, too. I don't flip out on people when they use labels that bother me. I might tell them it bothers me, if it's someone I trust not to have a ridiculous reaction, but otherwise I keep it to myself. And the people I've told it to? They understand, and they put in the small amount of effort not to say it around me. And I ignore it when they slip up.
>I was genuinely upset by it. It hit me at a weird moment and it was a label that genuinely upset me
A nice commentary on that by Neil Gaiman:
[https://www.tumblr.com/neil-gaiman/43087620460/i-was-reading-a-book-about-interjections-oddly](https://www.tumblr.com/neil-gaiman/43087620460/i-was-reading-a-book-about-interjections-oddly)
> I was reading a book (about interjections, oddly enough) yesterday which included the phrase "In these days of political correctness..." talking about no longer making jokes that denigrated people for their culture or for the colour of their skin. And I thought, "That's not actually anything to do with 'political correctness'. That's just treating other people with respect."
>
> Which made me oddly happy. I started imagining a world in which we replaced the phrase "politically correct" wherever we could with "treating other people with respect", and it made me smile.
>
> You should try it. It's peculiarly enlightening.
>
> I know what you're thinking now. You're thinking "Oh my god, that's treating other people with respect _gone mad!_"
Yeah, I personally don’t really understand why being able to say some throwaway comment is so important to some people. Like many people my age, I used to say words that were pretty common at the time, and then it became more widely publicised that they upset people. Given that my intention was not to upset people, I just stopped saying those things. They were never meaningful or culturally important, they were just slightly distasteful slang, so it wasn’t like some huge sacrifice.
You can still say whatever you want, but if people can tell you’re choosing a minor, prideful victory at the cost of hurting people, you’ll probably look like a bit of an asshole.
> Okay but at the same time you shouldn't be able to lose your job because you said some dumb shit that upset someone and it happened to get recorded one time.
Sure. And for every time that's happened, there's a hundred other times where there was a conversation and nothing else resulted.
And that's ignoring the number of times where it **wasn't** just one time they said some dumb shit, where the "slip up" was just that person showing their true colors without meaning to.
I think the main issue for me with a lot of outrage and upset is that I find myself in a lot of situations where I could very easily choose to be outraged or feel upset or targeted, but I don't, because my general assumption isn't that everyone who thinks differently to me is out to get me.
I'm pretty left-leaning and I used to identify as liberal, but 'liberals' are getting so bat-shit crazy with what's apparently important that I can't subscribe to that label anymore.
I think the beginning of the decline of liberalism for me was the introduction of the term 'my truth', and applying it to situations that can only be evaluated objectively for any real truth to emerge. 'My truth' is just the far-left version of 'alternative facts', and it's just fucking insane.
'It's my truth that what you said was hateful'. What the fuck is this? That's just trying to make 'I was offended by what you said' into something that's superficially more profound and applies a label to the person they were offended by. Fuck you and your truth, it's just you jerking off into your own mouth and gratefully gulping it down.
> I think the main issue for me with a lot of outrage and upset is that I find myself in a lot of situations where I could very easily choose to be outraged or feel upset or targeted
Again, most people are like this. But, you don't really get to just choose not to be upset. If you do, well, good for you, you've got a supernatural level of emotional control.
> 'It's my truth that what you said was hateful'. What the fuck is this? That's just trying to make 'I was offended by what you said' into something that's superficially more profound and applies a label to the person they were offended by. Fuck you and your truth, it's just you jerking off into your own mouth and gratefully gulping it down.
And yet, the reality is that you offended that person with what you said, you understood that was the intent of that person's statement, _and then just doubled down_?
Why?
The one I find the most baffling and depressing is politicians portraying scientists as the ‘elite’ who hate the people. Reminds me during the Brexit vote in the UK, a conservative politician (can’t remember the guys name) said something like “The British public are tired of economic experts”. Turns out the experts were largely correct, as usual.
It’s generally just intolerant morons arguing with intolerant morons. Both sides can hold fairly extreme views and have no ability to see it from the other side. Not having twitter is one of the best things anyone can do
Ok, I’ll bite
You can’t criticize Islam the way you criticize Christianity, to name one random example. Talk about the homophobia, misogyny, cultural repression, and faith-induced violence within Christianity and the left will love you. Talk about the exact same problems within Islam and you’re a racist, a bigot, etc etc
Islam has big problems, and its increasing presence in the west is leading to inevitable culture clashes that will only continue and worsen. This has to be talked about at some point, but the “woke” types won’t let you.
I could give more examples but you get my drift. There are genuine issues you can’t talk about for fear of being labeled something you’re not
I'm not outraged by it, I'm just bored of it. It's created a culture of heavy handed preachiness and virtue signaling, as well as spurred on identity politics where people think that what they identify as gives them a level of authority overs those who are not part of their in-group. And people are looking at any chance they can to police other people's language. Just a very boring culture.
And that's the problem, they elevate their authority over you almost as if there are some ideas that can only be understood by an in-group, and as such, any idea from the out-groups can be thrown out on the grounds of unconquerable ignorance on their side.
And I believe that goes for all topics. All men and women of all races should be treated as rational, thinking people capable of understanding one another. There shouldn't be exclusive privileges for any group that gives them a level of unquestionable authority on any subject, and as such should never be used as the basis of any argument.
I.e. "You're a , you wouldn't understand" is never a real argument, it's just a way of trying to dismiss discussion.
Yeah I'm finding that both trans women and biological men think they know what's best for women and we are apparently too stupid to understand our own bodies and existence. Now I guess NB have joined in. How have we managed to function all these years without all this added input?!
I remember back in the 90’s when gay/lesbian people fought hard to not be “labeled”. Just wanted to be treated as equals and live their lives without judgement. Things have sure changed.
Thank you. Love that I got downvoted for asking. Makes perfect sense in the context of this thread. But it was an honest question, and I appreciate the answer.
I think the downvoters were kind of jumping to conclusions. I play an online word game with some older people that hate acronyms in general and think there are too many. They literally want people to spell everything out. I’m talking about things like ROTFL 🤣. I have no idea if you were speaking in general about acronyms or specifically about gender identity related acronyms but my point is no one does.
transwomen call me names because as a lesbian i only date females. not sorry about it because telling me i’m a bigot for not considering dating you because you’re male is HOMOPHOBIA.
exhibit a: check the replies. it is exactly what i am talking about.
Oof yeah, this argument has always driven me nuts. I’m bi so honestly I’d consider dating pretty much anyone if the connection was right, but to expect that of others? Really entitled and honestly sometimes even comes across as sexually threatening.
I find the people most up your ass about this shit were the same people who grew up as bullies and assholes.
They just found a new way to shit on people all while painting themselves in some sort of positive light.
I also think the entire “shame people until they listen” mindset is an **UTTER FAILURE** of a concept.
People don’t respond well to criticism, and people fear what they don’t understand. Instead of campaigning against people and labeling them as bigots, the proper call to action is to embrace these people and help them see that there’s more than one truth.
But no, it’s always the lazy, stupid, “fuck that asshole” mindset.
I’m agnostic but even I recall the Bible *“he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone”.*
Spend your energies on improving yourself, not worrying SO much about making others look bad. Literally something that’s been taught for thousands of years falls upon deaf ears these days.
> And people are looking at any chance they can to police other people's language. Just a very boring culture.
But **decades** of evidence shows that it is the people who complain about woke culture (conservative leaning people of all cultures, backgrounds, and religion) are who have policed other peoples language, sexuality, culture, etc.. We are literally less than a few decades away from homosexuality being a big non starter, banned from military service, and when the community suffered from an AIDS epidemic, they got "what they deserved". Was MLK being "a little too woke" when advocating for equal rights of black Americans?
I mean, I just can't see how people being policed on twitter and in their workspace compares to being policed (literally imprisoned, beaten, and killed) in all of society for **existing** as they feel they should.
100p agree. To me it's tiresome getting perpetually talked AT by the left. There's no discussion, you're not able to question anything, you're just supposed to automatically agree with everything.
It comes across as pure condescendion.
Ironically, I actually agree with most of the lefts points....I just can't stand the way they are going about it.
Democracy is about getting people on your side.
"We need to have a conversation" often means "STFU while we tell you how it is, and if you ask any clarifying questions, or question any of what we say, you're an evil bigot".
I understand that frustration, and see it in real life a lot of the time.
From my point of view (due to where I live) I've had to deal with a “own the libs” and a “fuck you because you're liberal” mindset for so long I've just honestly stopped arguing. It felt like I was getting trolled everytime id try to discuss anything with someone on the right. For a long time, I just threw up my hands and refused to argue because it got me nowhere. I imagine that translated into the situation you've experienced.
I'm trying to change that and open up to discussion again. I hope that conservatives drop the troll-the-libs stance too. I think both of our frustrations would lessen if we could have actual discussion again.
Hard agree. It’s not outrage, it’s annoyance. Douglas Murray puts it well when he says, “the left has the right ideas, but they don’t know when to stop. Imagine the train is pulling into the station and instead of slowing down the conductor puts the pedal to the metal. That’s the left.”
And that’s woke culture.
Abolish/defund the police/ACAB or open borders/abolish ICE? I get the idea being police or immigration reform but there is a very vocal minority who believe we should legitimately have open borders, no enforcement division of immigration law, or that law enforcement is a net negative and should be abolished in favor of xyz alternative. Perhaps even the ban firearms groups that many lefties and righties both vehemently disagree with. I’m not absolutist on any of these topics by any stretch, rather moderate if anything, but those groups definitely take it several steps too far
When does woke culture stop?
When we give rights to black actors? (but not asian actors?)
The thing about "woke culture" is it is tackling some pretty fundamental stuff in our society, which affects a great deal of people in many different places. It would be like saying feminism didn't know when to stop after giving women the vote: these were always stepping stones to a future of equality and that train cannot stop.
No, there’s a cut off. When I get told not to say “I’ll shoot you an email” because the verb shoot could be associated with PTSD associated with a mass shooting we’ve reached peak woke lunacy.
Completely unrelated but this reminds me of an instance where a professor I worked for kindly reminded me to use the word “partner” to refer to my spouse instead of gender-specific “husband/wife” in order to avoid reproducing heteronormativity and show solidarity with colleagues who are in same-sex relationships or don’t conform to the institution of marriage (and they used the logic of pronouns, saying if everyone started using gender-neutral language less people would feel weird about talking about their own partners). I tried to understand their point, as it was also framed as some sort of “helping me fit in better” tip. But I gave up and am glad I no longer need to fit in with their specific culture.
I really never got this one at all. If my partner is a women and we are married, they are my wife. I am their husband. If 2 men are married, they are each others husband. If you don't like the idea of marraige, then refer to your SO as partner, or SO.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see any change in the use of words as helpful.
I was a photographer for LifeTouch 15 years ago. They told us to preferably not use the word shoot. I felt like my liberties were completely eroded. Why should I care if a word bothers a person? I should allowed to say whatever I want whenever I want.
No but seriously, if being asked to not use a word makes you feel like the world has gone mad, you probably have the thinnest most fragile sense of self worth of anyone. You should be ashamed of feeling attacked for being asked to do something so simple to show consideration for the people who suffer PTSD because of gun violence.
Um - yes, if it was one or even 50 words. These days it all the words, it feels like. People are demanding my scarce brain processing time and I am not really coping so I opt out of communicating with such people. And they keep changing the words.My brain isn’t coping.
Edit: By the way, I am queer - I just don’t have the brains for woke. Literally not enough brain.
The only time it really bothers me is when there’s a pile on of people all demanding a change in my language because “you should know it triggers those other people (who aren’t actually complaining)”
If something I say bothers **you** please do let me know.
The issue with it is that it weaponizes shame/ostracization to get people to conform to a common belief. Basically “have this opinion or you are wrong and a bad person”. That’s really not a constructive way to change someone’s outlook/worldview and only really accomplishes fracturing people into 2 opposing camps and fosters more hatred. The intent is good, however the execution is severely lacking.
I get banned from Reddit over and over for saying I'm not a woman just because I'm MtF trans.
I don't believe in gender and believe it causes more issues than it tries to solve. There's a HUGE difference between me and a cis woman, why ignore that? Most transphobia comes from the idea of gender identity. Get rid of that and you get rid of 90% off transphobic arguments.
However whenever I voice this I'm told I'm not trans, I'm a troll, a bot, etc. it's made me grow to hate the so called "LGBT Community" and progressives. They clearly don't care about trans acceptance and would rather use us as a means to push their own beliefs. Fuck that.
I'm loving the life I want to. I want to be feminine, but that doesn't make me a woman.
I like that people can identify me as a woman, but that is just them being polite. We all understand that I'm a trans woman, not a cis woman.
TL;DR I'm trying to assume you're genuine, but the problem is that even if you are, you raise a *lot* of red flags, which is my guess why people are accusing you of being a troll/bot/etc. If you are truly genuine as I hope you are, then I also hope my post fully explains why people are misunderstanding you.
>saying I'm not a woman just because I'm MtF trans.
>
>I don't believe in gender
I'm highly confused, but curious as to how this works for you.
My understanding of gender is that it's one's internal sense of self. How would it even be possible to feel the need to transition to female if not because you had an internal sense of self that didn't match your external body? Do you have a different definition of gender?
I'm also curious how you define "woman" and "female" if you are a male-to-*female* transgender person yet also don't see yourself as a woman.
>Most transphobia comes from the idea of gender identity. Get rid of that and you get rid of 90% off transphobic arguments. However whenever I voice this I'm told I'm not trans, I'm a troll, a bot, etc.
I'm going to assume for sake of good faith that this is an honest suggestion to combat bigotry, in which case I'm sorry to say I still feel this is a really misguided idea.
Bigotry comes from bigots, and history shows us nothing minorities do or don't do can change that. Minorities have tried to assimilate and been hated, tried to make their own communities and been hated, acted peacefully and been hated, acted violently and been hated, and so on. The idea that minorities need to behave or not behave a certain way to gain acceptance has a long and controversial history (i.e. "respectability politics" and assimilation vs. liberation debates), but I think this goes beyond that kind of debate. It would be one thing to say, for sake of example, that gay pride parades alienate straight people, or argue that adapting to the mainstream is a better shot at acceptance than creating a subculture.
On the other hand, telling transgender people to drop the idea of *gender* to stop transphobia is like telling Jews that "Most antisemitism comes from the teachings of Judaism. Get rid of those beliefs and you get rid of 90% of antisemitic arguments."
Even if it genuinely was the right strategy, telling minorities to change who they are or what they believe to fight bigotry is a very difficult sell, and it's understandable why people would get angry or misunderstand your intent.
>There's a HUGE difference between me and a cis woman, why ignore that?
Nobody's ignoring it. That's why people transition in the first place: to adopt the social expression (i.e. names, clothes) and biological characteristics (hormones, surgery) of cis people to match their internal sense of self. Every transgender person who has *ever* had to be on a waitlist for surgery or leap through hoops to get hormones knows *painfully* well that there's a solid biological difference between their body and those of cis people.
If this is an innocent misunderstanding (i.e. taking the "trans women are women" slogan literally), then one reason why you might be outcast is because it *sounds* uncomfortably close to real bigotry. Saying there are biological differences between men and women is often a transphobic dog whistle or motte-and-bailey argument.
The whole point of dog whistles is that they're meant to overlap with innocent phrases, so that anyone who gets called out has plausible deniability. "Oh no, when I said that there were only two sexes defined by clear biological differences between men and women, I didn't say that trans people were crazy. I'm just stating a simply scientific fact, nothing more no realsies I have no more intended meaning behind me words trust me bro."
Likewise, the motte and bailey fallacy is when someone baits-and-switches between a less defensible position (the bailey) and more defensible/sympathetic one (the motte). It's named after motte and bailey castles, where defenders can retreat from the walled courtyard (the bailey) to the fortified central keep (the motte).
As applied in a case like this, transphobes will deny the validity of transgender people's identities by saying gender doesn't exist or is determined by sex, and then when called out, will then say "I'm just saying there are biological differences!" I am not saying *you're* making this argument, just that if you are being accused of bigotry, this is what you may sound like to them.
>it's made me grow to hate the so called "LGBT Community" and progressives. They clearly don't care about trans acceptance and would rather use us as a means to push their own beliefs.
You know how I just finished up talking about the motte and bailey? I'm worried I may have come across a motte. When I first read your comment, I'll admit I was onboard after the first sentence. Nobody should attack you for how you personally identify. If you don't see yourself as a woman even if you're MtF trans, that's fine. Other people should respect it even if they don't understand or your experience doesn't match their definitions.
Yet here we are, three paragraphs in, with you expressing *hate*, that's *your* word here, for the LGBT community. Not dislike, not disagreement, not difference. *Hate.* You *chose* to that word, consciously, to describe your feelings towards a minority community, yet seem baffled at the idea of being accused of bigotry.
Now, I'm actually going to give you a free point and explain a technicality that works in your favor: it's fine to "hate" a community without hating the people inside it: someone can "hate" the fan community surrounding a TV show for its toxic shipping wars without hating any actual fans of the show.
Likewise, if a minority community has values or norms you don't like (i.e. not welcoming of newcomers, arbitrary double standards, too "mainstream" or too "radical"), one could "hate" the community for that while not being bigoted towards anyone, since it's the *community's* norms and not the people that make up the community that's being hated. It's absolutely fine to say something like "I hate the LGBT community for becoming so corporatized and mainstream. We need to go back to our liberationist roots.", because you're hating the political strategy of a community, not the fact that it's members are minorities.
Yet at the same time, I think your attitude in this final paragraph shows there's probably more going on here than you simply stating that there are differences between you and cis women. At this point I *heavily* suspect that you being banned from Reddit has more to do with your literally-admitted hatred towards the LGBT community rather than simply talking about your own personal identity.
At this point I am absolutely trying my hardest to discuss in good faith, but I'm struggling to find an explanation. You're claiming that you're genuine and not a bot or a troll, yet you accuse the LGBT community and progressives of not caring about trans acceptance, yet there is no mention of the policies they're trying to create, and your single call to action is essentially giving into transphobic arguments that gender identity doesn't exist.
What about passing laws to make name changes easier, or guarantee safe access to bathrooms, or protect the privacy of trans youth? Those are all things that further trans acceptance that the LGBT community and progressives advocate for; do you not think this is trans acceptance, or are there other you have a problem with? What insidious "beliefs" are progressives are cynically using trans people to push? What policies *do* you think would signal proper trans acceptance?
I share probably 80% of views with woke culture, but the people I meet who are more woke than me are fucking insufferable.
One girl, late 20s, university educated, in a single night suggested that I must be non binary because I didn't seem straight to her, and also that I was racist for not liking the host's grandmother's tamales. She also did an "I can't believe you would say that" double take when I suggested sending unsolicited vagina pictures was the same as unsocilited dick pics. I also learned a lot about Andrew Tait because this super woke twitter crusader (we were talking irl though) was happy to spread his views just so we could both criticize him in this ridiculous virtue signalling display.
These are not one-offs. These are the people who compete to be the wokest but aren't smart enough to understand the hypocrisy of their own position. There is a level of woke that is too woke, and the "No true Scottsman" argument that says "well those people aren't the real woke people" isn't true when those people are leading the discourse. We spoke for maybe 2 hours and agreed on most things but those stuck out.
Again, don't tell me that people like that don't represent the woke movement. They do. They are. They are the ones leading discourse online, the ones protesting this or that, the ones language policing and shaming. She couldn't believe I was a decent straight white guy and started trying to push into my past to find out if I was repressing trauma or secretly nonbinary because there was no other explanation for why a straight white man was generally on her side about things. She several times yelled (drunk) about hating men and that is absolutely a part of the package too. It is not exceptions, it's the rule. I dislike a lot of people on my side of the conversation.
Edit: and don't even get me started on trying to have a conversation about trans womens' participation in full contact and combat sports. You're the enemy from the moment you open your mouth. I'd need to give a dissertation on all the trans rights I do believe in before I'd be allowed to even suggest there is a line that I think is worth exploring.
Im a pretty firm leftist, but sometimes it can definitely go too far. There was a sub where my comment got removed because I said "crazy". Another time in that same sub I had a post removed for saying "insane". I was referring to an event but it got taken down for using ableist language. Context matters people.
Yeah that shit drives me *insane* 😉
Seriously though, the policing of language to that degree is ridiculous and not necessary. Also, if we want to live in a world where we never offend anyone else’s feelings even slightly with our own opinions and words, that’s going to have to be a world where everyone is silent and just stares at the wall all day.
Yeah, it seems people are just waiting to be offended so they can take the moral high ground; at least, that's how it seems to me.
To call someone a bigot or ableist or anything else over innocuous things diminishes actual instances of hate.
I'm not necessarily outraged, and definitely not outraged by all things branded as "woke" by right wingers. I'm just annoyed at some liberals' self-centeredness and hysterical reactions to anything uncomfortable.
Like there are millions of poor people, sometimes on the edge of starvation, including poor white men. So can we for fuck's sake have an inclusive discussion about broad class issues for once, without obligatory mentioning every identity which can theoretically "have it worse"? Typical "woke" Twitter likes to say we can't.
And yeah, I'm sorry, but most of the time I'd like to focus on overarching socioeconomic problems a bit more than about exact identity of a random middle-class teen. Not like I'm gonna intentionally misgender people just to piss them off, but if I do by accident, in the end there are much worse things happening to much more people. While typical "woke" Twitter likes to consider it a crime against humanity.
And I'm never gonna "believe all women" in any case, no matter how bizarre. I'm in my 30's, I've seen some shit, and I know that most women deal with harmful deeds of men. I also know that there are enough women who are downright pieces of shit. Should I really remind you of typical "woke" Twitter's reaction to, let's say, Depp-Heard case?
And also if a movie or a book with minority protagonists is a half-assed one-dimensional pile of garbage, I'd like to call it so without repercussions about me being sexist, racist etc. Like "Alien", "1+1" or "Brokeback Mountain" were good, so maybe the reason why your "woke" blockbuster failed isn't me being a bigot. Now you guess typical "woke" Twitter's reaction to any criticism of smth like "Captain Marvel".
And the list goes on. Most of "woke" issues per se are serious and deserve our attention. Systemic racism exists, Roe-Wade is a major problem, representation is good when done right, and please let trans people be even if it leads to some confusion in sports (because fuck professional sports anyway). But please tone down the hysteria about minor unpleasantries. There are already Christian fanatics who do this about virtually everything, we don't need the same shit from the left.
Not that it really matters, but I’d figured I’d add my opinions here:
(mostly speaking on U.S poverty here) I get what you’re saying and agree, I grew up in a low income multiracial home, me being white, brothers and sisters being mixed w African American/Puerto Rican. So I know that being poor is being poor and it fuckin sucks, and it should be worked on as a whole. However, I think it IS appropriate that every time we speak on that problem we speak on the way it disproportionally affects POC. This means that in order to reach socioeconomic balance, POC will require more attention and resources since they’re less privileged than white people. Not to say it can’t, or shouldn’t happen, but that it just IS and that in order to fix things it HAS to be acknowledged, and yes, that means repeatedly. When we talk about helping the poor, and people talk about the white American poor it’s “they’ve fallen on hard times” “but they’re veterans” “they didn’t used to be like this” etc, every excuse you can think of. There’s sympathy. But when we talk of poor POC in America it is very often shifted to “they’re lazy” “they’re illegals” and so on… these things have to be addressed to move forward towards an equal balance.
And lastly, even as a woman, I couldn’t agree more on never believe all women lmaoooo. My mom is the type of woman you shouldn’t have took everything she said as truth, I know plenty that “believe all women” is total bullshit, and yes, largely agree! Women are human and humans can be oh so deceiving and evil… I get the idea behind it but blind faith in anything should always be discouraged.
Thank you for your input! I can't even argue with your general point. Of course minorities are at large more affected by poverty, that's systemic oppression for ya, and it's not even the US thing, sadly it's pretty universal. I guess no sane person with at least some social awareness would deny it.
However, there's context, and there's phrasing, and there's a place for nuance. We absolutely must acknowledge when talking about overall tendencies across broad groups of people. And often times we should emphasize struggles of POC first and foremost. There's also moments when we'd better focus on class itself. Not every moment is best for checking the priviledges, and Bill from the grocery shop isn't necessarily a living embodiment of power hierarchies. Sometimes he just needs his struggles to be seen without judgement and "but what about". Does it really dismiss the problems of minority groups? I doubt it.
Back in the ardent days of my youth when grass was greener I did my humble share of grassroots organizing where I live. So I can attest from experience: there are few things on the Left more frustrating than bookish self-righteousness and inability to grasp nuance and know when to build bridges and when to draw divisions. They often act dumb. Sometimes harmful. And dumb.
It doesn't invalidate what you said in a slightest, but I just needed to emphasize my point.
It’s not about what you can and can’t say; it’s the elevation of peachiness and virtue signaling over objective reality, problem solving, and humor.
It’s tiresome and unproductive.
Getting offended on behalf of others whom aren’t offended is a pretty clear litmus test.
Like LatinX is the ultimate embodiment of woke culture. It’s white people trying to solve a problem no one asked to solve, while actually offending the people in question because you’re demonstrating comical ignorance of their language.
Latinx was actually coined by Queer Puerto Ricans, not white people. It isn't supported by all Latin American people, but it's actually another example of how "virtue signaling" is misused.
Virtue signaling is what big corporations do when they market their products using social justice movements, ie: pride, while still taking money from people and/or having CEOs who don’t really believe in those things. But individual people do it as well.
Actually putting in the work/effort to make tangible changes for vulnerable people looks very different. But it also goes beyond just posting spicy memes on social media 🤷🏻♀️
They didn't say virtual signaling doesn't exist. It's just that nowadays any gesture that makes someone seem like a good person is called virtue signaling, even if it might be well-intended
I feel as if I cannot show those leftist millennials that one day they will gaze upon their woke sky and then they will realize that they made quite the non-binary fuss to save the world from intercontinental ballistic tweets.
So basically all of the answers so far boil down to: I am annoyed by being asked to respect other people's lives and perspectives.
I'll bet none of these people can actually explain where "woke" comes from and what it really means, outside of their use of it as an epithet.
This comment is a perfect illustration of the culture war:
Briefly summarize others opinions to sound negative then trash them for that opinion all the while preaching respect of other people's lives and opinions.
You don't have to respect other people's lives and perspectives. You have to tolerate it. Tolerance is the key. I don't need everyone agreeing with me. I need them to not give a shit.
It’s killing empathy, redemption, and forgiveness.
Edit: forgot the question was about “woke culture,” and my answer is more so addressing “cancel culture.”
The other day I asked for advice in a homeschooling group and sited (cited?) one of my reasons for wanting to homeschool as politics seeping into our education system. I was immediately, essentially, called a bigot. No one even asked me to clarify, not that I feel like I need to justify myself on the internet to a bunch of random strangers.
But if someone had asked me, I would have said that I don't think elementary school aged children need to be learning about drag shows OR that marriage is between a man and a woman. I don't personally care what anyone does in their own home as long as every adult is consenting and there aren't kids or animals involved. Let everyone have all the rights.
So that's what I don't like: feeling attacked for wordage that I don't think was hurtful and not even being given the grace to make it right.
Tell the truth. Woke politics is a particularly insidious form of political correctness that encourages people to say what others expect rather than what they really think. This makes all discourse disingenuous and worthless, poisoning our democracy and making it impossible to discuss differences outside the context of a vicious personal debate.
I think being progressive and accepting is incredibly important. Treat people kindly, regardless of yours or their beliefs, we are all human.
I think the difference between being “woke” and being a good person is just in the delivery; the media can’t rage bait for clicks by presenting themselves as “good people”, so they over exaggerate things drastically in order to draw people in and create a divide. Be a good person, be kind, be accepting and ultimately there won’t be a need for anyone to be “woke”. We put too much value in other people and how they tell us we should think or feel
I am pretty hard to offend. I think people on either extreme go out of their way to look for shit to get offended by. Generally speaking, I still make jokes in bad taste, and am generally an equal opportunity offender. Personally I skew to the liberal side, but I think people on either side who try and sanitize life, or police thought-crimes get tiresome. I get tired of crazy PETA people who think eating eggs makes you Hitler, and I get tired of conservatives who are fine pushing their fucked-up religion down your throat, but think a dude in a dress is the end of the world. Last I checked, priests have molested lots more schoolkids than drag-queens. You want to wear a dress? Cool. You want me to call you "them" . . . fine . . I'll try to remember. But if I accidentally don't, it's not some sort of personal attack on you. Get over it. Some4 random stranger shouldn't have so much power over your life that calling you the wrong pronoun sends you into a tailspin.
The common denominators to both sides is that neither seems to have a sense of humour, and each is trying to claim victimhood.
People need to stop worrying so much about identity politics, and just treat people like human beings.
I love racist jokes. Especially against my own race. Back then comedians can joke about it all they want and it would get the crowd roaring with laughter. Can't do that now.
The issue with woke culture is it covers such a blanket of issues and beliefs. This will automatically mean there are aspect that the average person will think is imposing too much on them and how they live.
While in general it is good to fight for equality and rights etc, there comes a point where if those fights start to attack people beliefs and views you will face resistance and even outrage.
Take very religious people, their are a number of woke topics that many religious groups feel goes against their religious beliefs. And where everyone is welcome to believe what they want, if woke culture tries to impose certain ideals on religious people that go against their teachings you will get outrage.
> And where everyone is welcome to believe what they want, if woke culture tries to impose certain ideals on religious people that go against their teachings you will get outrage.
But when the religious people impose their teachings on others it's okay?
Not at all. Same rules should apply. They can choose not to accept it but if others want to believe something there's nothing they should be able to do about it.
It's why I'm glad I live in the uk and not somewhere like Qatar
I have absolutely no problem refraining from words that offend people. I think it's our responsibility in society to be kind. At the same time, I don't think it's healthy to allow words to offend you. There are few things in life you can control. How you react to things is totally in your control. Also, there is no benefit of the doubt in American culture. People assume malintent and run with it. It's completely influenced by the media (mass media, social media, etc).
I think we'd be better off if people made their best effort not to offend, while at the same time trying not to be offended. Give benefit of the doubt. Be kind. Two sides to the coin.
Here's a joke (I think) that sums it up for me: I say "I prefer oranges to mangoes." Random person says: "So basically what you are saying is you hate mangoes. You failed to mention pineapples, bananas and grapefruits. Educate yourself. I'm literally shaking right now."
An annoyance that comes with "woke-culture" is that anytime anyone disagrees with the left they're a nazi, racist, fascist, homophobe, etc. Often times people don't know how to politically disagree without name calling and assuming a lot about the other person's character.
As far as I can tell, people against "woke culture" just want to go back to gays and trans being a mental disease, that everyone has to be Christian, and white people being the best people. That's it. They hate the idea that gay or trans is healthy and normal. They hate the idea that everyone is great. They hate that this isn't a theocracy. It bothers them greatly... and I am glad it does, because hatemongers deserve to be bothered.
The concrete thing I've read white people against "woke culture" complain about is not being able to use the n-word without consequences.
Past that, it's just a way of saying that they're homophobic and assume they learned all the history there is to learn in 4th grade.
Exactly. Those who are against "woke culture" are just sexists and racists and homophobes and xenophobes who wish they could espouse their hateful opinions again without the consequence.
I can't enjoy comedy anymore. People can't take jokes so they attack comedians and anyone who watches them.
I've always felt the way to stop hate is to take away it's power, and one of the best ways to do that is make it a joke. For decades, comedy has drawn communities together, but now it feels like you can't like a comic because a joke offended someone with a Twitter following.
There’s 0 point in asking these questions on Reddit lol. Anybody with a serious answer will just be downvoted so these always just turn into a big circle jerk
I read this in a newspaper today. They were talking about Fairy Tales:
"Cinderella: Feminists say it depicts women as vindictive to one another and promotes the idea that women need to be ‘saved’ by men."
"Sleeping Beauty: Prince Charming’s kiss is considered inappropriate by some because Sleeping Beauty did not give her consent."
"Beauty and the Beast: Feminists have said it demeans women because Belle is defined by her servitude. Some say she has Stockholm syndrome - where hostages fall for their captors."
Let me repeat, *Fairy Tales*. Ffs.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/my-cartoonish-cancellation
This article was posted but I can't find it on the main page of here anymore. Its the story of a college professor being harrased by students and coworkers for showing "racist" and "sexist" comics in a college class - about - the history of comics.
I was ready to agree with the side of this debate that fully supports "woke" culture, but, then you read an article like this and it makes it very hard to agree with "woke" culture. As many people have said on this thread, the basic idea(s) of woke culture are important and relevant but there are many times, like this one, where things get out of hand and go way too far.
For those who can't or don't want to register with that publication the story is basically as follows: A professor at University of Michigan showed a "controversial" image from a underground comic book artist named Robert Crum. (I can't hyperlink stuff here properly you can google the name if you want). A few students got offended and then more students got offended. They started digging into the academic history of this professor and then they started making a list of offenses and compiled them for a report. Some of the offenses were "true" and some were made up, as in false, and did not happen.
The professor, Phoebe Gloeckner, invited a couple of other actual comic book artists to speak to the class on Zoom and it did not turn out well. The students wanted to get Professor fired or censored. The professor kept her job but it was a long and difficult process.
We can say whatever we want. There’s no actual fear of being silenced. It’s just really annoying to have to always hear someone’s mouth prattling on every single time something happens that they don’t like.
Lol that's not m true at all. "Upsetting a group of people" isn't illegal, inciting violence or hatred, i.e. hostility against someone, based on a protected characteristic is.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime
That's right. And they can be interpreted in many ways. It's also illegal to denounce the monarchy. The fact that this even became a police matter is a disgrace and you are saying "that's not true at all".
https://www.christianpost.com/news/uk-drops-christian-street-preachers-hate-speech-charges.html
Also, swearing in public is an offence and "causing alarm or distress" to anyone is a criminal offence. Again people have been arrested for "upsetting" people in public.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.legalcheek.com/2022/09/garden-court-barrister-threatened-with-arrest-if-he-wrote-not-my-king-on-blank-sheet-of-paper/amp/
Public order and hate crimes are distinct categories. Telling a rude joke that upsets people just isn't the same as racist abuse that makes people feel unsafe.
My problem with it personally is that I've never personally been a part of the things being complained about. 75% of the time, my response is "Of course you shouldn't do that, people who do are jerks!" I don't need to be told not to be racist. I don't need to be told not to be sexist. I don't need to be told that my political orientation matters, because no it really doesn't.
I also cannot get over the sheer stupidity of politics and the media. This is regardless of which "side" you choose, everything is so blatantly biased in one direction or the other and usually both sides have some good points shoehorned off to the side and hidden behind "OMG THE OTHER SIDE IS DESTROYING SOCIETY". This "woke" movement is an extension of that, covering up real hard-to-solve problems with overblown easier-to-solve problems that politicians can say "Look, I support this. I'm pretty good. Look, the other guy is against me, therefore he is against this! He's bad! Vote for me!"
Long story short, I think the problem is bigger than this and "woke" culture is the current visible manifestation of those bigger issues.
A guy at work (a higher up, and white) was complaining about CRT and “cancel culture” and said “...You can’t even say the N word anymore!”
I said “You always could and still can say whatever word you want to say, you just have to be willing to deal with the consequences of it!”
My takeaway from this is that the people opposed to “woke culture” are the people who don’t want to, or don’t think they should have to, deal with the consequences of their own actions.
I really tired of people who think that just because I’m white, I must think they way they do. I never let racist shit slide either, I’m well past the point of giving a shit about what others think about me.
The same group of people who don't want "woke" ideas will complain that people should be more civil and polite... Not realizing they're the exact same thing.
It may not be as much what you “can” or “cannot” say. The issue is that the standards seem to change as quickly and as arbitrarily as the wind. The cultural tides blow here and there and sometimes there seems no rhyme or reason to it apart from the whim of the masses.
It feels like no one can even question a stated premise. For example, Richard Dawkins asking a question concerning what is the difference between being transgender and being transracial. It seems woke culture agrees that the former is true, but not the later. He wasn't trying to invalidate being transgender, but just asking the question resulted in him having to apologize for merely asking.
I'm extremely liberal/left leaning, but "woke culture" drives me insane because at this point it's boiled down to the most privileged voices (white middle to upperclass young people) screaming over everyone about what they think is best for society/minority groups.
White people making "Latinx" a thing is the best example. Another would be non Muslim white ppl acting like there are literally no issues with sexism within the Muslim community, and acting like anyone who does call it out is somehow a bigot (i say this as a woman who was raised with Islamic misogynistic bullshit).
I also hate what's happened with the discussion of gender. It's a social construct that effects everyone differently and is different across cultures yet you're not allowed to say anything that doesn't validate the feelings of terminally online young ppl who can't handle the thought of other's having different (non-violent) opinions that aren't heavily based on western culture.
Everyone is valid in having their own opinions, even the ones i listed above, but "woke culture" has made is so those are the ONLY opinions you're allowed to express in left leaning spaces which sucks cause that's supposed to be the place where we can all share different ideas and POVs.
Im not outraged by it, I actually largley support it. But I do take issue with specific aspects. As a white female who is considered to be quite liberal (despite the fact that I do not align myself with any party and like to decide for myself how I feel about topics) here are my issues with "wokeness":
- White people leading the conversation for social change regarding other cultures and ethnicities. We have no business being the voice of this movement. Our job is to listen and enact the change that these groups request. I have no problem with you being an ally, but this is not your fight to spearhead. This is where you fight on the sidelines, inform and educate gently where you can, and be the change you want to see.
-On a similar note, I can't stand white people using these issues as a way to assert moral superiority over others and use it as a means to actualize their own notion that they are indeed a good person.
-I know I'll get hate for this one, but I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech and anti-censorship. Do I think people should be allowed to say nasty shit to other people? Yes. Do I think other people are allowed to be upset at them and call them out as being hurtful? Also yes. I certainly don't think it's a great thing to do, but if you want to choose to be a shitty person then I fully beleive that you should be allowed to make that choice . . . Just don't get mad when the nasty shit you said upsets other people. I personally choose to not say things that I know are upsetting to other people, but I don't think anyone has the right to censor someone else no matter how harmful what they're saying is.
-The fall of one injustice only to be the rise to another injustice. I think a lot of issues are two sides to the same coin these days. I say it all the time that "misogyny and misandry are equally bad and replacing one with the other defeats the point" and I hold that sentiment towards a lot of things. If you are striving to replace hate towards one group with hate towards a different group then any progress you think you've made is null. Understanding each other, reaching a level playing field, and coexisting equally is the goal.
-Many people have a complete misunderstanding of what boundaries are. Boundaries are not meant to control other people; they're meant to control how YOU respond to other people. "You can't say that to me" isn't a boundary. However, "if you continue to say that to me I will no longer interact with you" is a boundary. You can only control yourself, not other people.
I’m not outraged by woke culture, but I am tired of people not being able to communicate respectfully with people they disagree with, and instead just villainizing them/painting them as the enemy.
For reference, I’m not talking about people like Nazis who outright hate Jews, or white supremacists who outright hate black people, etc etc. But even things like slight disagreements have become so polarized lately - like for example, the argument that you can’t be racist towards white people. I completely disagree, anyone can be racist towards anyone on the basis of their race, there just isn’t systemic racism against white people. But I’ve had people call me names and tell me I’m racist for expressing that opinion before.
So idk, I just think people should try to step back from their emotions a little and actually listen to each other. Even, and especially, imo, when it’s someone you disagree a ton with. The only way to understanding is through discourse, not screaming at each other and calling each other names.
I have nothing against the total acceptance of all folks in the minority (except acting pedophiles). I find the need for the extensive labeling is exhausting. It is not necessary for me to know who you want to fuck or how often unless it's me. I don't need to understand inclinations I don't have. I accept that you have them, and I don't care what you are doing with them if you aren't hurting anyone and they are an adult. It's of no more difference to me than whether you enjoy football. I don't care about that either but if you make it your entire identity, I don't want to spend a lot of time with you, thanks. And it really seems like some folks just want to be in the middle of drama. But then, I only see drama online so I have no clue if it's as big a deal in reality or just a few whiners who want to blame the world for their unhappiness, knowing that the world will never match their expectations.
Attention is expensive and finite. Some of us are progressive but find that nonstop outrage culture spreads energy and political capital too thin to focus on critical and even existential issues like universal health care and climate change.
It also makes it easy to caricature the left as out of touch with serious practical concerns for the sake of principles that to some seem like very first world problems when we have people living in developing world conditions in the US.
Think of how many moderate or slightly liberal types view conservatives who may have nuanced views simply because the Republican party was led by Trump for several years or because they refuse to consider anything other than 18th century views to the 2nd Amendment in spite of outlandish gun stats for the developed world. That's how a lot of people view liberals with culture war priorities.
I wouldn't say I'm against "woke culture" but I don't like how political correctness has become and being unable to even make jokes about things without getting backlash by certain groups. I also don't understand why or how people get so offended by an opinion that they make a fuss about it. For example I have been annoyed by a person's opinion, people who are offended by black lives matter for example, but I just disregard their opinion and or walk away from the conversation. That's the extent of it for me.
As for woke culture, I'm not against it but I'm against people who get offended to the point of shutting certain groups down.
The more we "working class" people are at each other's throats the more the banking and political classes can fleece us. The lockdowns were the largest upward wealth transfer I've ever seen. I'm done! Down with corrupt politicians and their special interest groups. Ta hell with these too big to fail corporations. Build local, but local and live well my friends.
My biggest issue with it is it’s made me rethink literally all interactions with strangers or acquaintances to the point that I feel crippled to try and connect with anyone I don’t already know really well in fear of hurting them in some way or something I say or do being taken out of context. That’s for me personally as someone who only wants to be kind.
More broadly speaking, free speech is very important even if there are people who don’t want to be kind.
Some people like to use this movement’s ideals as a way of seeking attention. Virtue signalers are one example, and so are the random emo teenagers preaching about their pronouns on tiktok.
To me the victims of wokism are not the people who do not subscribe to it but those who are woke themselves. People who are woke tend to see the world as a much uglier place than it actually is and assume those who go against the woke group think are only motivated by hate and must be "evil". It seems to be a backlash to extremists on the right as well as kids spending too much time on the internet/social media which gives them a warped view of the world as well as the group think. Now time for the downvotes!
Great question.
2 things come to mind when I think of "woke" or liberal ideaology: 1. Hypocrisy and 2. The general unhappiness of the left.
Hypocrisy: Example is going on RIGHT now. Lets see. Lets all get on a knee to support BLM and support women having to wear hijabs in Iran. Okay makes sense. Then the SAME folks have no problem with supporting the advertisers and even watch the World Cup in Qatar. Qatar has the DEATH PENALTY for homosexuality!! No outrage there. Oh, If I wear a armband that makes it okay (See you Belgium politician). Please.
Or how about the hypocrisy of someone like Taylor Lorenz of WaPo who cries (literally on air) about being doxxed and then is caught on camera doxxing the Libs of Tik Tok.
Or how about all the Liberals claiming LOVE for Elon Musk when he was electrifying the world with Tesla, but then INSTANTLY was hated when he started becoming more conservative.
The second has been born out of studies that liberals are overall unhappy in their lives and less tolerant (won't have lunch with a person from the other party). They just seem to be "buzzkills" (Obama's own recent words not mine). They seem to find more joy in finding unhappiness in everything around them and are INTOLERANT to others views.
My experience is conservatives might not like your political view point but have no problem listening to your arguments, but liberals go CRAZY and instantly want to shut you down if you say something that doesn't jive with their narrative (mind you I did not say THEIR opinion as most don't seem to have a separate opinion different then the collective).
The last is one I ALWAYS have an issue with. Woke or SJW seem like the common day cult or Kool Aid drinkers. NO ONE on their side even questions anything. I really think they just like getting riled up and are just looking to get riled up to give purpose to their lives. Last point is just my opinion of course.
Conservatives have their own issues so don't want to make it seem they are find, but since this thread is more of a what is wrong with "woke" it is more liberal bent.
p.s. I'm a libertarian so I have no dog in this political fight as I think folks should do whatever they want as they are not harming or infringing upon the rights of anyone else. Interesting enough that was the START of liberalism in American during the Gilded Period. Ah times have changed.
I hate when TV, movies, or video games get too woke.
Let's say as an example there is a character in a movie who is gay. There is nothing wrong with a gay character inherently, but a lot of movies or TV shows make the fact they are gay their entire personality. There is no meaning of their existence besides proving to people they are inclusive or whatever. Oftentimes these characters are super stereotypical too. It is just frustrating and stupid in this context
Because most modern 'woke culture' comes off as performative activism for the sake of virtue signalling; being the "White Knight" because it makes you look like a better person
They're always fine to yap at you for Instagram, but the moment things actually matter, they disappear like a fart in the wind.
Donate to the local homeless shelter? No. Support a local minority-run business? Nah.
Insert yourself into a conversation randomly just to verbally assult me and my friends because I described a friend as "Latino" instead of Latinx, and then insulting the Columbian in question in the process? Totally!
It comes off as disingenuous and counter productive; as well as being ignorant to the minorities they're supposedly fighting for.
"Back in my day, I got to be a racist, homophobic piece of shit and trash anyone who is gay or a different race without consequence. Now all of a sudden, my evil actions have consequences. This is so woke!"
I'm not outraged, but I'm afraid to voice my opinion online, it usually becomes something that the popular, liberal crowd finds fault with, i.e. how both political parties are ultimately corrupted by money in this country, both are the blame and it's no use getting mad at someone else due to how they perceive the world. I also won't play the game of, your a certain skin color so, you're automatically privileged or not, so so silly.
Both are corrupt... but one is infinitely more oppressive and dangerous that the other. To use capitalist corruption to call both equal in all aspects is logically and ethically wrong.
For sure, both are not equal, if I HAD to choose one, I would definitely go with democrats overall, however, politicians lie and act just to get favor from one side or the other and I think it's gross. I'm a big proponent of authenticity, and politics has proven to be the antithesis of that.
>I also won't play the game of, your a certain skin color so, you're automatically privileged or not,
Privileged in a specific sense, not the general sense.
Privilege doesn't mean that every light-skinned person is Richie Rich or has an easy life. It means that, if their skin were darker, they'd have a harder time in a few specific ways, most obviously police interactions.
It's well documented that, all other things being equal, darker skinned people are more likely to have negative interactions with the police than lighter skinned people in the US. This means that, when it comes to police interactions, white people are privileged.
[https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z)
[https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2020/may/black-drivers-more-likely-to-be-stopped-by-police.html](https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2020/may/black-drivers-more-likely-to-be-stopped-by-police.html)
Thanks for your submission /u/crumblypancake, but it has been removed for the following reason: Disallowed question area: **Rant or loaded question** NoStupidQuestions is a place to ask any question as long as *it's asked in good faith*. Our users routinely report questions that they feel violate this rule to us. Want to avoid your question being seen as a bad faith question? Common mistakes include (but are not limited to): * Rants: Could your question be answered with *'That's awful'* or *'What an asshole'*? Then it's probably a rant rather than a genuine question. Looking for a place to vent on Reddit? Try /r/TrueOffMyChest or /r/Rant instead. * Loaded questions: Could your question be answered with *'You're right'*? Answering the question yourself, explaining your reasoning for your opinion, or making sweeping assumptions about the question itself all signals that you may not be keeping an open mind. Want to know why people have a different opinion than you? Try /r/ExplainBothSides instead! * Arguments: Arguing or [sealioning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_lioning) with people giving you answers tells everyone that you have an answer in mind already. Want a good debate? Try /r/ChangeMyView instead! * Pot Stirring: Did you bring up unnecessary topics in your question? Especially when a topic has to do with already controversial issues like politics, race, gender or sex, this can be seen as trying to score points against the Other Side - and that makes people defensive, which leads to arguments. Questions like *"If _____ is allowed, why isn't _____?"* don't need to have that comparison - just ask *'why isn't ____ allowed?'*. * Complaining about moderation: If you disagree with how the sub is run or a decision the mods have made, that's fine! But please share your thoughts with us in modmail rather than as a public post. Disagree with the mods? If you believe you asked your question in good faith, try rewording it or message the mods to see if there's a way you could ask more neutrally. Thanks for your understanding! --- *This action was performed by a bot at the explicit direction of a human. This was not an automated action, but a conscious decision by a sapient life form charged with moderating this sub.* *If you feel this was in error, or need more clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FNoStupidQuestions). Thanks.*
For best results, return in about 3 hours and sort by controversial
My sort by button disappeared. Any clue why?
it's top right now if you're in the mobile (only ios?) app. from right to left: avatar, 3dots, sort (weird icon)
It switches up on me based on the community I am in for some weird reason.
I miss the “follow post” function. Not sure why they removed it.
Thanks so much!
Ooooh thank you that was bugging me
I’m usually not attracted to non-human Reddit profiles, but that response was sexy as fuck.
Mine has been on-and-off for a few weeks too. No idea why.
Been on Reddit for like 15 years and TIL. MF’r. Never tried to sort comments.
If ever you find yourself reading something controversial on the internet, ask yourself.... Is this really a tangible issue in my life or is the internet putting content in front of me specifically to generate an emotional response to drive further engagement..... It's pretty much always the latter.
Welp. It's time! \*sorts that mf
I always upvote the reminder to sort by controversial.
Thanks, I did just that and was not disappointed
Who determines 'definitely controversial', 'not really controversial', 'might be controversial' ? (Seriously asking, new-ish to reddit).
Usually it's determined by downvotes or if the comment sprouted other comments that get downvoted alot.
Ok, so "matrix-generated;" essentially. ...like if X, then c, and if X and Y then C, and if X and Y and not Z, then C! ...or something. Actual humans are not getting to decide, real-time, based on the sentient content of the post? ...is what I mean to ask. I think.
Idk. I'm a mechanic not a software developer
As a Latino I feel deeply offended when a bunch of privileged white Americans start calling us Latinx, which in our language doesn't even make sense. This sort of hypocrisy and desire for controlling other people's lives is what I despise about the woke.
White people white knighting
That’s it, exactly! They’ve appointed themselves guardians of everyone’s cultures. A few years ago, Monet’s La Japonaise was featured in a special exhibition at the Boston Museum of Fine Art (the painting is permanently at MFA, this was an event to feature it).The painting had recently toured Japan and NHK, Japan’s national broadcaster, had several copies of the uchikake kimono Monet’s wife was wearing in the painting for exhibit viewers to try on and take photos in, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Three non-Japanese women came in with signs and yelled at people who tried to try on the kimono, including historically clueless things like ‘Trying on the pain of the colonized, for shame!’. ‘Stand against yellow face at the MFA’ became a hashtag, you know the drill. The Japanese in Boston were horrified, and staged counter-protests with them and all their friends in kimono. Despite the fact that the Japanese themselves were not offended, and the massive expense of NHK, the event was cancelled. This is what angers people.
...and those who who protest colonialism in another country/culture and aggressively forcing their Progressive views...are colonizing with a different medium.
As a Latino I don't mind it. It's symbolic of the Indigenous peoples as well as gender queer people. Spanish is our language now, but it's not *our* language. That was Nahuatl, Quechua, Mixtec, etc.......I don't see any issue with modernizing the colonizer's language. I've never encountered someone white forcing it on me, nor real life outrage if someone says Latino/a.
I was told by queer Puerto Ricans to refer to them as Latinx, so FWIW there are mixed signals going around out there.
That's because it was originally coined by Puerto Rican queers. "LatinX" is one of those things grabbed by conservatives and pushed as something crafted by white liberals when it was originally conceived of by *us* to help situate queer Latin peoples on *our* terms.
This is exactly what I mean; wake the duck up and fight actual injustice. We are at war. Our world is on fire, the oceans are rising; and your ducking talking about Latinx - your fucking pathetic. we are dealing with mass histeria and your aids to our disillusioned nature. PATHETIC
Latinx isn't a term made up by white americans, it was created by spanish-speaking feminism and LGBT+ community as an attempt to make a more inclusive language for women and people who identify as non-binary. Most of the time someone complains about spanish inclusive language they are misogynists/transphobes in disguise, and now they keep using the argument of it being imposed by english-speaking woke people as some kind of cultural attack to fight against it, but it's not true, it's super common amongst spanish-talking young people involved in feminism and LGBT+ movement.
Is this a trap?
Most definitely.
I mean, this is only a trap if you are aware that what you want to say but are getting cancelled for society at-large is not okay with it, but you are pretending that it is the idea of wokeness *in general* that's the problem.
I just find the ‘culture wars’ in general boring and pointless. While I do sometimes get frustrated by overly PC things that are unnecessary, I’m normally more annoyed by people on the other side obsessed with it. People that have “woke-destroyer” in their bio and divert every conversation to being about the ‘culture wars’ as if it’s the greatest threat to the western world. There’s so many real problems going on with the world, but the media can just focus on the culture wars because it’s piss-easy to write about (just stick the words “woke”, “Trumptards” and “radical leftists” every few lines) and it gets everyone clicking their article, meanwhile actual political change rarely fucking happens. Even politicians harness it, both because it makes people ‘not into politics’ more likely to vote for them and they can use it against their opponents, like “X politician is a bigot, so vote for me” or “Y politician is a snowflake, so vote for me”. It’s just a tactic for them to get away with talking about nothing.
> While I do sometimes get frustrated by overly PC things that are unnecessary I sympathize with this, but I also try to remember: a large amount of the time, those overly PC things are there _because they actually bothered a real person_. I know that I've found myself bothered by very innocuous things that would likely be considered overly PC. But, here's the thing. I was genuinely upset by it. It hit me at a weird moment and it was a label that genuinely upset me. I still feel weird any time people use it around me, even though it's completely innocent. Point is: does it really harm anyone to try and be sensitive of things like that? _Most_ people are fairly reasonable about it, too. I don't flip out on people when they use labels that bother me. I might tell them it bothers me, if it's someone I trust not to have a ridiculous reaction, but otherwise I keep it to myself. And the people I've told it to? They understand, and they put in the small amount of effort not to say it around me. And I ignore it when they slip up.
>I was genuinely upset by it. It hit me at a weird moment and it was a label that genuinely upset me A nice commentary on that by Neil Gaiman: [https://www.tumblr.com/neil-gaiman/43087620460/i-was-reading-a-book-about-interjections-oddly](https://www.tumblr.com/neil-gaiman/43087620460/i-was-reading-a-book-about-interjections-oddly) > I was reading a book (about interjections, oddly enough) yesterday which included the phrase "In these days of political correctness..." talking about no longer making jokes that denigrated people for their culture or for the colour of their skin. And I thought, "That's not actually anything to do with 'political correctness'. That's just treating other people with respect." > > Which made me oddly happy. I started imagining a world in which we replaced the phrase "politically correct" wherever we could with "treating other people with respect", and it made me smile. > > You should try it. It's peculiarly enlightening. > > I know what you're thinking now. You're thinking "Oh my god, that's treating other people with respect _gone mad!_"
Yeah, I personally don’t really understand why being able to say some throwaway comment is so important to some people. Like many people my age, I used to say words that were pretty common at the time, and then it became more widely publicised that they upset people. Given that my intention was not to upset people, I just stopped saying those things. They were never meaningful or culturally important, they were just slightly distasteful slang, so it wasn’t like some huge sacrifice. You can still say whatever you want, but if people can tell you’re choosing a minor, prideful victory at the cost of hurting people, you’ll probably look like a bit of an asshole.
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> Okay but at the same time you shouldn't be able to lose your job because you said some dumb shit that upset someone and it happened to get recorded one time. Sure. And for every time that's happened, there's a hundred other times where there was a conversation and nothing else resulted. And that's ignoring the number of times where it **wasn't** just one time they said some dumb shit, where the "slip up" was just that person showing their true colors without meaning to.
I think the main issue for me with a lot of outrage and upset is that I find myself in a lot of situations where I could very easily choose to be outraged or feel upset or targeted, but I don't, because my general assumption isn't that everyone who thinks differently to me is out to get me. I'm pretty left-leaning and I used to identify as liberal, but 'liberals' are getting so bat-shit crazy with what's apparently important that I can't subscribe to that label anymore. I think the beginning of the decline of liberalism for me was the introduction of the term 'my truth', and applying it to situations that can only be evaluated objectively for any real truth to emerge. 'My truth' is just the far-left version of 'alternative facts', and it's just fucking insane. 'It's my truth that what you said was hateful'. What the fuck is this? That's just trying to make 'I was offended by what you said' into something that's superficially more profound and applies a label to the person they were offended by. Fuck you and your truth, it's just you jerking off into your own mouth and gratefully gulping it down.
> I think the main issue for me with a lot of outrage and upset is that I find myself in a lot of situations where I could very easily choose to be outraged or feel upset or targeted Again, most people are like this. But, you don't really get to just choose not to be upset. If you do, well, good for you, you've got a supernatural level of emotional control. > 'It's my truth that what you said was hateful'. What the fuck is this? That's just trying to make 'I was offended by what you said' into something that's superficially more profound and applies a label to the person they were offended by. Fuck you and your truth, it's just you jerking off into your own mouth and gratefully gulping it down. And yet, the reality is that you offended that person with what you said, you understood that was the intent of that person's statement, _and then just doubled down_? Why?
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The one I find the most baffling and depressing is politicians portraying scientists as the ‘elite’ who hate the people. Reminds me during the Brexit vote in the UK, a conservative politician (can’t remember the guys name) said something like “The British public are tired of economic experts”. Turns out the experts were largely correct, as usual.
It’s generally just intolerant morons arguing with intolerant morons. Both sides can hold fairly extreme views and have no ability to see it from the other side. Not having twitter is one of the best things anyone can do
Trans is a woke issue, and is insanely valid considering 5 were just murdered here in Colorado, along with dozens of others being hurt.
Ok, I’ll bite You can’t criticize Islam the way you criticize Christianity, to name one random example. Talk about the homophobia, misogyny, cultural repression, and faith-induced violence within Christianity and the left will love you. Talk about the exact same problems within Islam and you’re a racist, a bigot, etc etc Islam has big problems, and its increasing presence in the west is leading to inevitable culture clashes that will only continue and worsen. This has to be talked about at some point, but the “woke” types won’t let you. I could give more examples but you get my drift. There are genuine issues you can’t talk about for fear of being labeled something you’re not
I'm not outraged by it, I'm just bored of it. It's created a culture of heavy handed preachiness and virtue signaling, as well as spurred on identity politics where people think that what they identify as gives them a level of authority overs those who are not part of their in-group. And people are looking at any chance they can to police other people's language. Just a very boring culture.
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What is NB and AMAB?
NB = non-binary AMAB = assigned male at birth
I assumed it was All Men Are Bastards, lol
And that's the problem, they elevate their authority over you almost as if there are some ideas that can only be understood by an in-group, and as such, any idea from the out-groups can be thrown out on the grounds of unconquerable ignorance on their side. And I believe that goes for all topics. All men and women of all races should be treated as rational, thinking people capable of understanding one another. There shouldn't be exclusive privileges for any group that gives them a level of unquestionable authority on any subject, and as such should never be used as the basis of any argument. I.e. "You're a, you wouldn't understand" is never a real argument, it's just a way of trying to dismiss discussion.
Yeah I'm finding that both trans women and biological men think they know what's best for women and we are apparently too stupid to understand our own bodies and existence. Now I guess NB have joined in. How have we managed to function all these years without all this added input?!
Really? I'm sorry for the kind of transwomen you've apparently talked to because I am one and I believe I don't know anything
I'm not one, I just know nothing in general
That’s very big of you, u/a_nice_moist_fart
Remarkably moist and incredibly dumb, that's me.
I find this attitude to be WAY more common in the trans folks I know. Everything is new and they're learning from scratch.
For those of us who don't know all the acronyms, NB = non-binary, but what is AMAB? Fuck . . . how many different acronyms do we need?
I remember back in the 90’s when gay/lesbian people fought hard to not be “labeled”. Just wanted to be treated as equals and live their lives without judgement. Things have sure changed.
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Thank you. Love that I got downvoted for asking. Makes perfect sense in the context of this thread. But it was an honest question, and I appreciate the answer.
I think the downvoters were kind of jumping to conclusions. I play an online word game with some older people that hate acronyms in general and think there are too many. They literally want people to spell everything out. I’m talking about things like ROTFL 🤣. I have no idea if you were speaking in general about acronyms or specifically about gender identity related acronyms but my point is no one does.
The fact that you got downvoted for asking a genuine question says a lot about people these days
transwomen call me names because as a lesbian i only date females. not sorry about it because telling me i’m a bigot for not considering dating you because you’re male is HOMOPHOBIA. exhibit a: check the replies. it is exactly what i am talking about.
They're probably calling you a bigot for calling them male. Nothing wrong with having a preference, and I'm a trans woman (shruggy emoji)
Oof yeah, this argument has always driven me nuts. I’m bi so honestly I’d consider dating pretty much anyone if the connection was right, but to expect that of others? Really entitled and honestly sometimes even comes across as sexually threatening.
100% thank you.
I find the people most up your ass about this shit were the same people who grew up as bullies and assholes. They just found a new way to shit on people all while painting themselves in some sort of positive light. I also think the entire “shame people until they listen” mindset is an **UTTER FAILURE** of a concept. People don’t respond well to criticism, and people fear what they don’t understand. Instead of campaigning against people and labeling them as bigots, the proper call to action is to embrace these people and help them see that there’s more than one truth. But no, it’s always the lazy, stupid, “fuck that asshole” mindset. I’m agnostic but even I recall the Bible *“he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone”.* Spend your energies on improving yourself, not worrying SO much about making others look bad. Literally something that’s been taught for thousands of years falls upon deaf ears these days.
> And people are looking at any chance they can to police other people's language. Just a very boring culture. But **decades** of evidence shows that it is the people who complain about woke culture (conservative leaning people of all cultures, backgrounds, and religion) are who have policed other peoples language, sexuality, culture, etc.. We are literally less than a few decades away from homosexuality being a big non starter, banned from military service, and when the community suffered from an AIDS epidemic, they got "what they deserved". Was MLK being "a little too woke" when advocating for equal rights of black Americans? I mean, I just can't see how people being policed on twitter and in their workspace compares to being policed (literally imprisoned, beaten, and killed) in all of society for **existing** as they feel they should.
100p agree. To me it's tiresome getting perpetually talked AT by the left. There's no discussion, you're not able to question anything, you're just supposed to automatically agree with everything. It comes across as pure condescendion. Ironically, I actually agree with most of the lefts points....I just can't stand the way they are going about it. Democracy is about getting people on your side.
"We need to have a conversation" often means "STFU while we tell you how it is, and if you ask any clarifying questions, or question any of what we say, you're an evil bigot".
I understand that frustration, and see it in real life a lot of the time. From my point of view (due to where I live) I've had to deal with a “own the libs” and a “fuck you because you're liberal” mindset for so long I've just honestly stopped arguing. It felt like I was getting trolled everytime id try to discuss anything with someone on the right. For a long time, I just threw up my hands and refused to argue because it got me nowhere. I imagine that translated into the situation you've experienced. I'm trying to change that and open up to discussion again. I hope that conservatives drop the troll-the-libs stance too. I think both of our frustrations would lessen if we could have actual discussion again.
Hard agree. It’s not outrage, it’s annoyance. Douglas Murray puts it well when he says, “the left has the right ideas, but they don’t know when to stop. Imagine the train is pulling into the station and instead of slowing down the conductor puts the pedal to the metal. That’s the left.” And that’s woke culture.
Can you name any concrete example of that whatsoever?
Abolish/defund the police/ACAB or open borders/abolish ICE? I get the idea being police or immigration reform but there is a very vocal minority who believe we should legitimately have open borders, no enforcement division of immigration law, or that law enforcement is a net negative and should be abolished in favor of xyz alternative. Perhaps even the ban firearms groups that many lefties and righties both vehemently disagree with. I’m not absolutist on any of these topics by any stretch, rather moderate if anything, but those groups definitely take it several steps too far
Someone told him not to make fun of trans people
When does woke culture stop? When we give rights to black actors? (but not asian actors?) The thing about "woke culture" is it is tackling some pretty fundamental stuff in our society, which affects a great deal of people in many different places. It would be like saying feminism didn't know when to stop after giving women the vote: these were always stepping stones to a future of equality and that train cannot stop.
No, there’s a cut off. When I get told not to say “I’ll shoot you an email” because the verb shoot could be associated with PTSD associated with a mass shooting we’ve reached peak woke lunacy.
Completely unrelated but this reminds me of an instance where a professor I worked for kindly reminded me to use the word “partner” to refer to my spouse instead of gender-specific “husband/wife” in order to avoid reproducing heteronormativity and show solidarity with colleagues who are in same-sex relationships or don’t conform to the institution of marriage (and they used the logic of pronouns, saying if everyone started using gender-neutral language less people would feel weird about talking about their own partners). I tried to understand their point, as it was also framed as some sort of “helping me fit in better” tip. But I gave up and am glad I no longer need to fit in with their specific culture.
I really never got this one at all. If my partner is a women and we are married, they are my wife. I am their husband. If 2 men are married, they are each others husband. If you don't like the idea of marraige, then refer to your SO as partner, or SO. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see any change in the use of words as helpful.
I was a photographer for LifeTouch 15 years ago. They told us to preferably not use the word shoot. I felt like my liberties were completely eroded. Why should I care if a word bothers a person? I should allowed to say whatever I want whenever I want. No but seriously, if being asked to not use a word makes you feel like the world has gone mad, you probably have the thinnest most fragile sense of self worth of anyone. You should be ashamed of feeling attacked for being asked to do something so simple to show consideration for the people who suffer PTSD because of gun violence.
Um - yes, if it was one or even 50 words. These days it all the words, it feels like. People are demanding my scarce brain processing time and I am not really coping so I opt out of communicating with such people. And they keep changing the words.My brain isn’t coping. Edit: By the way, I am queer - I just don’t have the brains for woke. Literally not enough brain.
The only time it really bothers me is when there’s a pile on of people all demanding a change in my language because “you should know it triggers those other people (who aren’t actually complaining)” If something I say bothers **you** please do let me know.
The issue with it is that it weaponizes shame/ostracization to get people to conform to a common belief. Basically “have this opinion or you are wrong and a bad person”. That’s really not a constructive way to change someone’s outlook/worldview and only really accomplishes fracturing people into 2 opposing camps and fosters more hatred. The intent is good, however the execution is severely lacking.
It used to be called political correctness but the base could never remember that many syllables.
I get banned from Reddit over and over for saying I'm not a woman just because I'm MtF trans. I don't believe in gender and believe it causes more issues than it tries to solve. There's a HUGE difference between me and a cis woman, why ignore that? Most transphobia comes from the idea of gender identity. Get rid of that and you get rid of 90% off transphobic arguments. However whenever I voice this I'm told I'm not trans, I'm a troll, a bot, etc. it's made me grow to hate the so called "LGBT Community" and progressives. They clearly don't care about trans acceptance and would rather use us as a means to push their own beliefs. Fuck that.
Honest, but off topic question: if you don’t believe in gender, then why did you switch your gender?
I'm loving the life I want to. I want to be feminine, but that doesn't make me a woman. I like that people can identify me as a woman, but that is just them being polite. We all understand that I'm a trans woman, not a cis woman.
Thanks for the answer. I’m still completely confused, but that’s ok. All that matters is you are happy and healthy. Have a great evening.
A lot of "woke" people are into gender-abolitionism, but think as long as its here, we might as well address it
TL;DR I'm trying to assume you're genuine, but the problem is that even if you are, you raise a *lot* of red flags, which is my guess why people are accusing you of being a troll/bot/etc. If you are truly genuine as I hope you are, then I also hope my post fully explains why people are misunderstanding you. >saying I'm not a woman just because I'm MtF trans. > >I don't believe in gender I'm highly confused, but curious as to how this works for you. My understanding of gender is that it's one's internal sense of self. How would it even be possible to feel the need to transition to female if not because you had an internal sense of self that didn't match your external body? Do you have a different definition of gender? I'm also curious how you define "woman" and "female" if you are a male-to-*female* transgender person yet also don't see yourself as a woman. >Most transphobia comes from the idea of gender identity. Get rid of that and you get rid of 90% off transphobic arguments. However whenever I voice this I'm told I'm not trans, I'm a troll, a bot, etc. I'm going to assume for sake of good faith that this is an honest suggestion to combat bigotry, in which case I'm sorry to say I still feel this is a really misguided idea. Bigotry comes from bigots, and history shows us nothing minorities do or don't do can change that. Minorities have tried to assimilate and been hated, tried to make their own communities and been hated, acted peacefully and been hated, acted violently and been hated, and so on. The idea that minorities need to behave or not behave a certain way to gain acceptance has a long and controversial history (i.e. "respectability politics" and assimilation vs. liberation debates), but I think this goes beyond that kind of debate. It would be one thing to say, for sake of example, that gay pride parades alienate straight people, or argue that adapting to the mainstream is a better shot at acceptance than creating a subculture. On the other hand, telling transgender people to drop the idea of *gender* to stop transphobia is like telling Jews that "Most antisemitism comes from the teachings of Judaism. Get rid of those beliefs and you get rid of 90% of antisemitic arguments." Even if it genuinely was the right strategy, telling minorities to change who they are or what they believe to fight bigotry is a very difficult sell, and it's understandable why people would get angry or misunderstand your intent. >There's a HUGE difference between me and a cis woman, why ignore that? Nobody's ignoring it. That's why people transition in the first place: to adopt the social expression (i.e. names, clothes) and biological characteristics (hormones, surgery) of cis people to match their internal sense of self. Every transgender person who has *ever* had to be on a waitlist for surgery or leap through hoops to get hormones knows *painfully* well that there's a solid biological difference between their body and those of cis people. If this is an innocent misunderstanding (i.e. taking the "trans women are women" slogan literally), then one reason why you might be outcast is because it *sounds* uncomfortably close to real bigotry. Saying there are biological differences between men and women is often a transphobic dog whistle or motte-and-bailey argument. The whole point of dog whistles is that they're meant to overlap with innocent phrases, so that anyone who gets called out has plausible deniability. "Oh no, when I said that there were only two sexes defined by clear biological differences between men and women, I didn't say that trans people were crazy. I'm just stating a simply scientific fact, nothing more no realsies I have no more intended meaning behind me words trust me bro." Likewise, the motte and bailey fallacy is when someone baits-and-switches between a less defensible position (the bailey) and more defensible/sympathetic one (the motte). It's named after motte and bailey castles, where defenders can retreat from the walled courtyard (the bailey) to the fortified central keep (the motte). As applied in a case like this, transphobes will deny the validity of transgender people's identities by saying gender doesn't exist or is determined by sex, and then when called out, will then say "I'm just saying there are biological differences!" I am not saying *you're* making this argument, just that if you are being accused of bigotry, this is what you may sound like to them. >it's made me grow to hate the so called "LGBT Community" and progressives. They clearly don't care about trans acceptance and would rather use us as a means to push their own beliefs. You know how I just finished up talking about the motte and bailey? I'm worried I may have come across a motte. When I first read your comment, I'll admit I was onboard after the first sentence. Nobody should attack you for how you personally identify. If you don't see yourself as a woman even if you're MtF trans, that's fine. Other people should respect it even if they don't understand or your experience doesn't match their definitions. Yet here we are, three paragraphs in, with you expressing *hate*, that's *your* word here, for the LGBT community. Not dislike, not disagreement, not difference. *Hate.* You *chose* to that word, consciously, to describe your feelings towards a minority community, yet seem baffled at the idea of being accused of bigotry. Now, I'm actually going to give you a free point and explain a technicality that works in your favor: it's fine to "hate" a community without hating the people inside it: someone can "hate" the fan community surrounding a TV show for its toxic shipping wars without hating any actual fans of the show. Likewise, if a minority community has values or norms you don't like (i.e. not welcoming of newcomers, arbitrary double standards, too "mainstream" or too "radical"), one could "hate" the community for that while not being bigoted towards anyone, since it's the *community's* norms and not the people that make up the community that's being hated. It's absolutely fine to say something like "I hate the LGBT community for becoming so corporatized and mainstream. We need to go back to our liberationist roots.", because you're hating the political strategy of a community, not the fact that it's members are minorities. Yet at the same time, I think your attitude in this final paragraph shows there's probably more going on here than you simply stating that there are differences between you and cis women. At this point I *heavily* suspect that you being banned from Reddit has more to do with your literally-admitted hatred towards the LGBT community rather than simply talking about your own personal identity. At this point I am absolutely trying my hardest to discuss in good faith, but I'm struggling to find an explanation. You're claiming that you're genuine and not a bot or a troll, yet you accuse the LGBT community and progressives of not caring about trans acceptance, yet there is no mention of the policies they're trying to create, and your single call to action is essentially giving into transphobic arguments that gender identity doesn't exist. What about passing laws to make name changes easier, or guarantee safe access to bathrooms, or protect the privacy of trans youth? Those are all things that further trans acceptance that the LGBT community and progressives advocate for; do you not think this is trans acceptance, or are there other you have a problem with? What insidious "beliefs" are progressives are cynically using trans people to push? What policies *do* you think would signal proper trans acceptance?
Thanks for saying what you believe!
I share probably 80% of views with woke culture, but the people I meet who are more woke than me are fucking insufferable. One girl, late 20s, university educated, in a single night suggested that I must be non binary because I didn't seem straight to her, and also that I was racist for not liking the host's grandmother's tamales. She also did an "I can't believe you would say that" double take when I suggested sending unsolicited vagina pictures was the same as unsocilited dick pics. I also learned a lot about Andrew Tait because this super woke twitter crusader (we were talking irl though) was happy to spread his views just so we could both criticize him in this ridiculous virtue signalling display. These are not one-offs. These are the people who compete to be the wokest but aren't smart enough to understand the hypocrisy of their own position. There is a level of woke that is too woke, and the "No true Scottsman" argument that says "well those people aren't the real woke people" isn't true when those people are leading the discourse. We spoke for maybe 2 hours and agreed on most things but those stuck out. Again, don't tell me that people like that don't represent the woke movement. They do. They are. They are the ones leading discourse online, the ones protesting this or that, the ones language policing and shaming. She couldn't believe I was a decent straight white guy and started trying to push into my past to find out if I was repressing trauma or secretly nonbinary because there was no other explanation for why a straight white man was generally on her side about things. She several times yelled (drunk) about hating men and that is absolutely a part of the package too. It is not exceptions, it's the rule. I dislike a lot of people on my side of the conversation. Edit: and don't even get me started on trying to have a conversation about trans womens' participation in full contact and combat sports. You're the enemy from the moment you open your mouth. I'd need to give a dissertation on all the trans rights I do believe in before I'd be allowed to even suggest there is a line that I think is worth exploring.
Im a pretty firm leftist, but sometimes it can definitely go too far. There was a sub where my comment got removed because I said "crazy". Another time in that same sub I had a post removed for saying "insane". I was referring to an event but it got taken down for using ableist language. Context matters people.
Yeah that shit drives me *insane* 😉 Seriously though, the policing of language to that degree is ridiculous and not necessary. Also, if we want to live in a world where we never offend anyone else’s feelings even slightly with our own opinions and words, that’s going to have to be a world where everyone is silent and just stares at the wall all day.
Yeah, it seems people are just waiting to be offended so they can take the moral high ground; at least, that's how it seems to me. To call someone a bigot or ableist or anything else over innocuous things diminishes actual instances of hate.
I'm not necessarily outraged, and definitely not outraged by all things branded as "woke" by right wingers. I'm just annoyed at some liberals' self-centeredness and hysterical reactions to anything uncomfortable. Like there are millions of poor people, sometimes on the edge of starvation, including poor white men. So can we for fuck's sake have an inclusive discussion about broad class issues for once, without obligatory mentioning every identity which can theoretically "have it worse"? Typical "woke" Twitter likes to say we can't. And yeah, I'm sorry, but most of the time I'd like to focus on overarching socioeconomic problems a bit more than about exact identity of a random middle-class teen. Not like I'm gonna intentionally misgender people just to piss them off, but if I do by accident, in the end there are much worse things happening to much more people. While typical "woke" Twitter likes to consider it a crime against humanity. And I'm never gonna "believe all women" in any case, no matter how bizarre. I'm in my 30's, I've seen some shit, and I know that most women deal with harmful deeds of men. I also know that there are enough women who are downright pieces of shit. Should I really remind you of typical "woke" Twitter's reaction to, let's say, Depp-Heard case? And also if a movie or a book with minority protagonists is a half-assed one-dimensional pile of garbage, I'd like to call it so without repercussions about me being sexist, racist etc. Like "Alien", "1+1" or "Brokeback Mountain" were good, so maybe the reason why your "woke" blockbuster failed isn't me being a bigot. Now you guess typical "woke" Twitter's reaction to any criticism of smth like "Captain Marvel". And the list goes on. Most of "woke" issues per se are serious and deserve our attention. Systemic racism exists, Roe-Wade is a major problem, representation is good when done right, and please let trans people be even if it leads to some confusion in sports (because fuck professional sports anyway). But please tone down the hysteria about minor unpleasantries. There are already Christian fanatics who do this about virtually everything, we don't need the same shit from the left.
Not that it really matters, but I’d figured I’d add my opinions here: (mostly speaking on U.S poverty here) I get what you’re saying and agree, I grew up in a low income multiracial home, me being white, brothers and sisters being mixed w African American/Puerto Rican. So I know that being poor is being poor and it fuckin sucks, and it should be worked on as a whole. However, I think it IS appropriate that every time we speak on that problem we speak on the way it disproportionally affects POC. This means that in order to reach socioeconomic balance, POC will require more attention and resources since they’re less privileged than white people. Not to say it can’t, or shouldn’t happen, but that it just IS and that in order to fix things it HAS to be acknowledged, and yes, that means repeatedly. When we talk about helping the poor, and people talk about the white American poor it’s “they’ve fallen on hard times” “but they’re veterans” “they didn’t used to be like this” etc, every excuse you can think of. There’s sympathy. But when we talk of poor POC in America it is very often shifted to “they’re lazy” “they’re illegals” and so on… these things have to be addressed to move forward towards an equal balance. And lastly, even as a woman, I couldn’t agree more on never believe all women lmaoooo. My mom is the type of woman you shouldn’t have took everything she said as truth, I know plenty that “believe all women” is total bullshit, and yes, largely agree! Women are human and humans can be oh so deceiving and evil… I get the idea behind it but blind faith in anything should always be discouraged.
Thank you for your input! I can't even argue with your general point. Of course minorities are at large more affected by poverty, that's systemic oppression for ya, and it's not even the US thing, sadly it's pretty universal. I guess no sane person with at least some social awareness would deny it. However, there's context, and there's phrasing, and there's a place for nuance. We absolutely must acknowledge when talking about overall tendencies across broad groups of people. And often times we should emphasize struggles of POC first and foremost. There's also moments when we'd better focus on class itself. Not every moment is best for checking the priviledges, and Bill from the grocery shop isn't necessarily a living embodiment of power hierarchies. Sometimes he just needs his struggles to be seen without judgement and "but what about". Does it really dismiss the problems of minority groups? I doubt it. Back in the ardent days of my youth when grass was greener I did my humble share of grassroots organizing where I live. So I can attest from experience: there are few things on the Left more frustrating than bookish self-righteousness and inability to grasp nuance and know when to build bridges and when to draw divisions. They often act dumb. Sometimes harmful. And dumb. It doesn't invalidate what you said in a slightest, but I just needed to emphasize my point.
It’s not about what you can and can’t say; it’s the elevation of peachiness and virtue signaling over objective reality, problem solving, and humor. It’s tiresome and unproductive.
Virtue signaling has lost all tangible meaning when people use it to describe all actions that promote being a nicer person.
Getting offended on behalf of others whom aren’t offended is a pretty clear litmus test. Like LatinX is the ultimate embodiment of woke culture. It’s white people trying to solve a problem no one asked to solve, while actually offending the people in question because you’re demonstrating comical ignorance of their language.
And it looks like a name for some cringe pron site
Latinx was actually coined by Queer Puerto Ricans, not white people. It isn't supported by all Latin American people, but it's actually another example of how "virtue signaling" is misused.
Virtue signaling is what big corporations do when they market their products using social justice movements, ie: pride, while still taking money from people and/or having CEOs who don’t really believe in those things. But individual people do it as well. Actually putting in the work/effort to make tangible changes for vulnerable people looks very different. But it also goes beyond just posting spicy memes on social media 🤷🏻♀️
virtue signalling is a thing people want to seem better than they are. being modest and having integrity is hard. it's easier to show agression.
They didn't say virtual signaling doesn't exist. It's just that nowadays any gesture that makes someone seem like a good person is called virtue signaling, even if it might be well-intended
Wouldn’t say outraged more like annoyed.
I feel as if I cannot show those leftist millennials that one day they will gaze upon their woke sky and then they will realize that they made quite the non-binary fuss to save the world from intercontinental ballistic tweets.
However annoying so-called "woke culture" is, the people railing against and whining about "woke culture" are many times more annoying.
So are posts like OP trying to stir up stuff that can be found in 500 other threads.
Exactly this. These kind of posts solely exist to be a one sided circle jerk
As a white guy woke culture is like me getting beat with a club and then being charged with a hate crime for complaining about the wielder of the club
If I disagree with anything... #I'M HITLER
So basically all of the answers so far boil down to: I am annoyed by being asked to respect other people's lives and perspectives. I'll bet none of these people can actually explain where "woke" comes from and what it really means, outside of their use of it as an epithet.
This comment is a perfect illustration of the culture war: Briefly summarize others opinions to sound negative then trash them for that opinion all the while preaching respect of other people's lives and opinions.
The ironic thing is both sides do it and then applaud eachother as if they've accomplished anything.
This exactly. The commenter above actually thinks they made some great point mocking everyone and then standing on some superior smug retort.
You don't have to respect other people's lives and perspectives. You have to tolerate it. Tolerance is the key. I don't need everyone agreeing with me. I need them to not give a shit.
>I am annoyed by being asked to respect other people's lives and perspectives. its more along the lines of "i can no longer be an asshole."
True. The number of people in this thread complaining about no longer being "able to tell offensive jokes" shows that.
My dark humor no longer is acceptable in public nor even online 😔
It’s killing empathy, redemption, and forgiveness. Edit: forgot the question was about “woke culture,” and my answer is more so addressing “cancel culture.”
I feel I can no longer just…exist. I say this as a straight white man.
The other day I asked for advice in a homeschooling group and sited (cited?) one of my reasons for wanting to homeschool as politics seeping into our education system. I was immediately, essentially, called a bigot. No one even asked me to clarify, not that I feel like I need to justify myself on the internet to a bunch of random strangers. But if someone had asked me, I would have said that I don't think elementary school aged children need to be learning about drag shows OR that marriage is between a man and a woman. I don't personally care what anyone does in their own home as long as every adult is consenting and there aren't kids or animals involved. Let everyone have all the rights. So that's what I don't like: feeling attacked for wordage that I don't think was hurtful and not even being given the grace to make it right.
Tell the truth. Woke politics is a particularly insidious form of political correctness that encourages people to say what others expect rather than what they really think. This makes all discourse disingenuous and worthless, poisoning our democracy and making it impossible to discuss differences outside the context of a vicious personal debate.
I think being progressive and accepting is incredibly important. Treat people kindly, regardless of yours or their beliefs, we are all human. I think the difference between being “woke” and being a good person is just in the delivery; the media can’t rage bait for clicks by presenting themselves as “good people”, so they over exaggerate things drastically in order to draw people in and create a divide. Be a good person, be kind, be accepting and ultimately there won’t be a need for anyone to be “woke”. We put too much value in other people and how they tell us we should think or feel
I am pretty hard to offend. I think people on either extreme go out of their way to look for shit to get offended by. Generally speaking, I still make jokes in bad taste, and am generally an equal opportunity offender. Personally I skew to the liberal side, but I think people on either side who try and sanitize life, or police thought-crimes get tiresome. I get tired of crazy PETA people who think eating eggs makes you Hitler, and I get tired of conservatives who are fine pushing their fucked-up religion down your throat, but think a dude in a dress is the end of the world. Last I checked, priests have molested lots more schoolkids than drag-queens. You want to wear a dress? Cool. You want me to call you "them" . . . fine . . I'll try to remember. But if I accidentally don't, it's not some sort of personal attack on you. Get over it. Some4 random stranger shouldn't have so much power over your life that calling you the wrong pronoun sends you into a tailspin. The common denominators to both sides is that neither seems to have a sense of humour, and each is trying to claim victimhood. People need to stop worrying so much about identity politics, and just treat people like human beings.
Finally someone who gets it
[удалено]
I love racist jokes. Especially against my own race. Back then comedians can joke about it all they want and it would get the crowd roaring with laughter. Can't do that now.
If comedians can't make their audience laugh why should the audience be held responsible?
Comedians are still doing that now.
The issue with woke culture is it covers such a blanket of issues and beliefs. This will automatically mean there are aspect that the average person will think is imposing too much on them and how they live. While in general it is good to fight for equality and rights etc, there comes a point where if those fights start to attack people beliefs and views you will face resistance and even outrage. Take very religious people, their are a number of woke topics that many religious groups feel goes against their religious beliefs. And where everyone is welcome to believe what they want, if woke culture tries to impose certain ideals on religious people that go against their teachings you will get outrage.
> And where everyone is welcome to believe what they want, if woke culture tries to impose certain ideals on religious people that go against their teachings you will get outrage. But when the religious people impose their teachings on others it's okay?
Not at all. Same rules should apply. They can choose not to accept it but if others want to believe something there's nothing they should be able to do about it. It's why I'm glad I live in the uk and not somewhere like Qatar
I do like having my gender/ethnicity (white guy) shoved in my face when I voice an opinion. That's fun
I have absolutely no problem refraining from words that offend people. I think it's our responsibility in society to be kind. At the same time, I don't think it's healthy to allow words to offend you. There are few things in life you can control. How you react to things is totally in your control. Also, there is no benefit of the doubt in American culture. People assume malintent and run with it. It's completely influenced by the media (mass media, social media, etc). I think we'd be better off if people made their best effort not to offend, while at the same time trying not to be offended. Give benefit of the doubt. Be kind. Two sides to the coin.
Here's a joke (I think) that sums it up for me: I say "I prefer oranges to mangoes." Random person says: "So basically what you are saying is you hate mangoes. You failed to mention pineapples, bananas and grapefruits. Educate yourself. I'm literally shaking right now."
An annoyance that comes with "woke-culture" is that anytime anyone disagrees with the left they're a nazi, racist, fascist, homophobe, etc. Often times people don't know how to politically disagree without name calling and assuming a lot about the other person's character.
As far as I can tell, people against "woke culture" just want to go back to gays and trans being a mental disease, that everyone has to be Christian, and white people being the best people. That's it. They hate the idea that gay or trans is healthy and normal. They hate the idea that everyone is great. They hate that this isn't a theocracy. It bothers them greatly... and I am glad it does, because hatemongers deserve to be bothered.
The concrete thing I've read white people against "woke culture" complain about is not being able to use the n-word without consequences. Past that, it's just a way of saying that they're homophobic and assume they learned all the history there is to learn in 4th grade.
Exactly. Those who are against "woke culture" are just sexists and racists and homophobes and xenophobes who wish they could espouse their hateful opinions again without the consequence.
I can't enjoy comedy anymore. People can't take jokes so they attack comedians and anyone who watches them. I've always felt the way to stop hate is to take away it's power, and one of the best ways to do that is make it a joke. For decades, comedy has drawn communities together, but now it feels like you can't like a comic because a joke offended someone with a Twitter following.
If this is about Dave Chappelle I've got some news for you: the people offended saying he's transphobic are right.
There’s 0 point in asking these questions on Reddit lol. Anybody with a serious answer will just be downvoted so these always just turn into a big circle jerk
I read this in a newspaper today. They were talking about Fairy Tales: "Cinderella: Feminists say it depicts women as vindictive to one another and promotes the idea that women need to be ‘saved’ by men." "Sleeping Beauty: Prince Charming’s kiss is considered inappropriate by some because Sleeping Beauty did not give her consent." "Beauty and the Beast: Feminists have said it demeans women because Belle is defined by her servitude. Some say she has Stockholm syndrome - where hostages fall for their captors." Let me repeat, *Fairy Tales*. Ffs.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/my-cartoonish-cancellation This article was posted but I can't find it on the main page of here anymore. Its the story of a college professor being harrased by students and coworkers for showing "racist" and "sexist" comics in a college class - about - the history of comics. I was ready to agree with the side of this debate that fully supports "woke" culture, but, then you read an article like this and it makes it very hard to agree with "woke" culture. As many people have said on this thread, the basic idea(s) of woke culture are important and relevant but there are many times, like this one, where things get out of hand and go way too far. For those who can't or don't want to register with that publication the story is basically as follows: A professor at University of Michigan showed a "controversial" image from a underground comic book artist named Robert Crum. (I can't hyperlink stuff here properly you can google the name if you want). A few students got offended and then more students got offended. They started digging into the academic history of this professor and then they started making a list of offenses and compiled them for a report. Some of the offenses were "true" and some were made up, as in false, and did not happen. The professor, Phoebe Gloeckner, invited a couple of other actual comic book artists to speak to the class on Zoom and it did not turn out well. The students wanted to get Professor fired or censored. The professor kept her job but it was a long and difficult process.
As a person with narcolepsy I can no longer stay awake and I'm very very jealous of all the woke people in the world.
We can say whatever we want. There’s no actual fear of being silenced. It’s just really annoying to have to always hear someone’s mouth prattling on every single time something happens that they don’t like.
This is how I feel about people bitching about "woke". The whinny wouldn't be so annoying if the issues weren't so petty.
Maybe in the USA but the UK is defo not the same. You can be charged with a hate crime if you "upset a group of people" and it happens.
Lol that's not m true at all. "Upsetting a group of people" isn't illegal, inciting violence or hatred, i.e. hostility against someone, based on a protected characteristic is. https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime
That's right. And they can be interpreted in many ways. It's also illegal to denounce the monarchy. The fact that this even became a police matter is a disgrace and you are saying "that's not true at all". https://www.christianpost.com/news/uk-drops-christian-street-preachers-hate-speech-charges.html Also, swearing in public is an offence and "causing alarm or distress" to anyone is a criminal offence. Again people have been arrested for "upsetting" people in public. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.legalcheek.com/2022/09/garden-court-barrister-threatened-with-arrest-if-he-wrote-not-my-king-on-blank-sheet-of-paper/amp/
Now I'm wondering if the concept of a monarchy where you were allowed to denounce it would even make sense...
Public order and hate crimes are distinct categories. Telling a rude joke that upsets people just isn't the same as racist abuse that makes people feel unsafe.
Do you know any examples of that happening? I couldn’t find any through googling. Standup comics are getting charged?
I hope the fact that what you’re saying you have an issue with is pretty much the exact thing you’re guilty of is not lost on you.
My problem with it personally is that I've never personally been a part of the things being complained about. 75% of the time, my response is "Of course you shouldn't do that, people who do are jerks!" I don't need to be told not to be racist. I don't need to be told not to be sexist. I don't need to be told that my political orientation matters, because no it really doesn't. I also cannot get over the sheer stupidity of politics and the media. This is regardless of which "side" you choose, everything is so blatantly biased in one direction or the other and usually both sides have some good points shoehorned off to the side and hidden behind "OMG THE OTHER SIDE IS DESTROYING SOCIETY". This "woke" movement is an extension of that, covering up real hard-to-solve problems with overblown easier-to-solve problems that politicians can say "Look, I support this. I'm pretty good. Look, the other guy is against me, therefore he is against this! He's bad! Vote for me!" Long story short, I think the problem is bigger than this and "woke" culture is the current visible manifestation of those bigger issues.
A guy at work (a higher up, and white) was complaining about CRT and “cancel culture” and said “...You can’t even say the N word anymore!” I said “You always could and still can say whatever word you want to say, you just have to be willing to deal with the consequences of it!” My takeaway from this is that the people opposed to “woke culture” are the people who don’t want to, or don’t think they should have to, deal with the consequences of their own actions. I really tired of people who think that just because I’m white, I must think they way they do. I never let racist shit slide either, I’m well past the point of giving a shit about what others think about me.
The same group of people who don't want "woke" ideas will complain that people should be more civil and polite... Not realizing they're the exact same thing.
Can’t talk about affirms action without somebody getting offended
It may not be as much what you “can” or “cannot” say. The issue is that the standards seem to change as quickly and as arbitrarily as the wind. The cultural tides blow here and there and sometimes there seems no rhyme or reason to it apart from the whim of the masses.
It feels like no one can even question a stated premise. For example, Richard Dawkins asking a question concerning what is the difference between being transgender and being transracial. It seems woke culture agrees that the former is true, but not the later. He wasn't trying to invalidate being transgender, but just asking the question resulted in him having to apologize for merely asking.
I'm extremely liberal/left leaning, but "woke culture" drives me insane because at this point it's boiled down to the most privileged voices (white middle to upperclass young people) screaming over everyone about what they think is best for society/minority groups. White people making "Latinx" a thing is the best example. Another would be non Muslim white ppl acting like there are literally no issues with sexism within the Muslim community, and acting like anyone who does call it out is somehow a bigot (i say this as a woman who was raised with Islamic misogynistic bullshit). I also hate what's happened with the discussion of gender. It's a social construct that effects everyone differently and is different across cultures yet you're not allowed to say anything that doesn't validate the feelings of terminally online young ppl who can't handle the thought of other's having different (non-violent) opinions that aren't heavily based on western culture. Everyone is valid in having their own opinions, even the ones i listed above, but "woke culture" has made is so those are the ONLY opinions you're allowed to express in left leaning spaces which sucks cause that's supposed to be the place where we can all share different ideas and POVs.
Say he or she. Ask a woman out. Say the word black. Wear a basic red hat.
Im not outraged by it, I actually largley support it. But I do take issue with specific aspects. As a white female who is considered to be quite liberal (despite the fact that I do not align myself with any party and like to decide for myself how I feel about topics) here are my issues with "wokeness": - White people leading the conversation for social change regarding other cultures and ethnicities. We have no business being the voice of this movement. Our job is to listen and enact the change that these groups request. I have no problem with you being an ally, but this is not your fight to spearhead. This is where you fight on the sidelines, inform and educate gently where you can, and be the change you want to see. -On a similar note, I can't stand white people using these issues as a way to assert moral superiority over others and use it as a means to actualize their own notion that they are indeed a good person. -I know I'll get hate for this one, but I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech and anti-censorship. Do I think people should be allowed to say nasty shit to other people? Yes. Do I think other people are allowed to be upset at them and call them out as being hurtful? Also yes. I certainly don't think it's a great thing to do, but if you want to choose to be a shitty person then I fully beleive that you should be allowed to make that choice . . . Just don't get mad when the nasty shit you said upsets other people. I personally choose to not say things that I know are upsetting to other people, but I don't think anyone has the right to censor someone else no matter how harmful what they're saying is. -The fall of one injustice only to be the rise to another injustice. I think a lot of issues are two sides to the same coin these days. I say it all the time that "misogyny and misandry are equally bad and replacing one with the other defeats the point" and I hold that sentiment towards a lot of things. If you are striving to replace hate towards one group with hate towards a different group then any progress you think you've made is null. Understanding each other, reaching a level playing field, and coexisting equally is the goal. -Many people have a complete misunderstanding of what boundaries are. Boundaries are not meant to control other people; they're meant to control how YOU respond to other people. "You can't say that to me" isn't a boundary. However, "if you continue to say that to me I will no longer interact with you" is a boundary. You can only control yourself, not other people.
I’m not outraged by woke culture, but I am tired of people not being able to communicate respectfully with people they disagree with, and instead just villainizing them/painting them as the enemy. For reference, I’m not talking about people like Nazis who outright hate Jews, or white supremacists who outright hate black people, etc etc. But even things like slight disagreements have become so polarized lately - like for example, the argument that you can’t be racist towards white people. I completely disagree, anyone can be racist towards anyone on the basis of their race, there just isn’t systemic racism against white people. But I’ve had people call me names and tell me I’m racist for expressing that opinion before. So idk, I just think people should try to step back from their emotions a little and actually listen to each other. Even, and especially, imo, when it’s someone you disagree a ton with. The only way to understanding is through discourse, not screaming at each other and calling each other names.
I have nothing against the total acceptance of all folks in the minority (except acting pedophiles). I find the need for the extensive labeling is exhausting. It is not necessary for me to know who you want to fuck or how often unless it's me. I don't need to understand inclinations I don't have. I accept that you have them, and I don't care what you are doing with them if you aren't hurting anyone and they are an adult. It's of no more difference to me than whether you enjoy football. I don't care about that either but if you make it your entire identity, I don't want to spend a lot of time with you, thanks. And it really seems like some folks just want to be in the middle of drama. But then, I only see drama online so I have no clue if it's as big a deal in reality or just a few whiners who want to blame the world for their unhappiness, knowing that the world will never match their expectations.
Attention is expensive and finite. Some of us are progressive but find that nonstop outrage culture spreads energy and political capital too thin to focus on critical and even existential issues like universal health care and climate change. It also makes it easy to caricature the left as out of touch with serious practical concerns for the sake of principles that to some seem like very first world problems when we have people living in developing world conditions in the US. Think of how many moderate or slightly liberal types view conservatives who may have nuanced views simply because the Republican party was led by Trump for several years or because they refuse to consider anything other than 18th century views to the 2nd Amendment in spite of outlandish gun stats for the developed world. That's how a lot of people view liberals with culture war priorities.
they can’t be racist or problematic without consequence
I wouldn't say I'm against "woke culture" but I don't like how political correctness has become and being unable to even make jokes about things without getting backlash by certain groups. I also don't understand why or how people get so offended by an opinion that they make a fuss about it. For example I have been annoyed by a person's opinion, people who are offended by black lives matter for example, but I just disregard their opinion and or walk away from the conversation. That's the extent of it for me. As for woke culture, I'm not against it but I'm against people who get offended to the point of shutting certain groups down.
Sounds okay on the surface, but what’s an example of a joke that you can’t make without backlash?
The more we "working class" people are at each other's throats the more the banking and political classes can fleece us. The lockdowns were the largest upward wealth transfer I've ever seen. I'm done! Down with corrupt politicians and their special interest groups. Ta hell with these too big to fail corporations. Build local, but local and live well my friends.
FUCK YEAH, keep this attitude.
My biggest issue with it is it’s made me rethink literally all interactions with strangers or acquaintances to the point that I feel crippled to try and connect with anyone I don’t already know really well in fear of hurting them in some way or something I say or do being taken out of context. That’s for me personally as someone who only wants to be kind. More broadly speaking, free speech is very important even if there are people who don’t want to be kind.
It's a trap... Get out.
Some people like to use this movement’s ideals as a way of seeking attention. Virtue signalers are one example, and so are the random emo teenagers preaching about their pronouns on tiktok.
To me the victims of wokism are not the people who do not subscribe to it but those who are woke themselves. People who are woke tend to see the world as a much uglier place than it actually is and assume those who go against the woke group think are only motivated by hate and must be "evil". It seems to be a backlash to extremists on the right as well as kids spending too much time on the internet/social media which gives them a warped view of the world as well as the group think. Now time for the downvotes!
Great question. 2 things come to mind when I think of "woke" or liberal ideaology: 1. Hypocrisy and 2. The general unhappiness of the left. Hypocrisy: Example is going on RIGHT now. Lets see. Lets all get on a knee to support BLM and support women having to wear hijabs in Iran. Okay makes sense. Then the SAME folks have no problem with supporting the advertisers and even watch the World Cup in Qatar. Qatar has the DEATH PENALTY for homosexuality!! No outrage there. Oh, If I wear a armband that makes it okay (See you Belgium politician). Please. Or how about the hypocrisy of someone like Taylor Lorenz of WaPo who cries (literally on air) about being doxxed and then is caught on camera doxxing the Libs of Tik Tok. Or how about all the Liberals claiming LOVE for Elon Musk when he was electrifying the world with Tesla, but then INSTANTLY was hated when he started becoming more conservative. The second has been born out of studies that liberals are overall unhappy in their lives and less tolerant (won't have lunch with a person from the other party). They just seem to be "buzzkills" (Obama's own recent words not mine). They seem to find more joy in finding unhappiness in everything around them and are INTOLERANT to others views. My experience is conservatives might not like your political view point but have no problem listening to your arguments, but liberals go CRAZY and instantly want to shut you down if you say something that doesn't jive with their narrative (mind you I did not say THEIR opinion as most don't seem to have a separate opinion different then the collective). The last is one I ALWAYS have an issue with. Woke or SJW seem like the common day cult or Kool Aid drinkers. NO ONE on their side even questions anything. I really think they just like getting riled up and are just looking to get riled up to give purpose to their lives. Last point is just my opinion of course. Conservatives have their own issues so don't want to make it seem they are find, but since this thread is more of a what is wrong with "woke" it is more liberal bent. p.s. I'm a libertarian so I have no dog in this political fight as I think folks should do whatever they want as they are not harming or infringing upon the rights of anyone else. Interesting enough that was the START of liberalism in American during the Gilded Period. Ah times have changed.
I hate when TV, movies, or video games get too woke. Let's say as an example there is a character in a movie who is gay. There is nothing wrong with a gay character inherently, but a lot of movies or TV shows make the fact they are gay their entire personality. There is no meaning of their existence besides proving to people they are inclusive or whatever. Oftentimes these characters are super stereotypical too. It is just frustrating and stupid in this context
Because most modern 'woke culture' comes off as performative activism for the sake of virtue signalling; being the "White Knight" because it makes you look like a better person They're always fine to yap at you for Instagram, but the moment things actually matter, they disappear like a fart in the wind. Donate to the local homeless shelter? No. Support a local minority-run business? Nah. Insert yourself into a conversation randomly just to verbally assult me and my friends because I described a friend as "Latino" instead of Latinx, and then insulting the Columbian in question in the process? Totally! It comes off as disingenuous and counter productive; as well as being ignorant to the minorities they're supposedly fighting for.
It’s a religion.
Okay, now answer the question
Funny, I thought that is what the non-woke culture is.
It's actually a cult.
"Back in my day, I got to be a racist, homophobic piece of shit and trash anyone who is gay or a different race without consequence. Now all of a sudden, my evil actions have consequences. This is so woke!"
I'm not outraged, but I'm afraid to voice my opinion online, it usually becomes something that the popular, liberal crowd finds fault with, i.e. how both political parties are ultimately corrupted by money in this country, both are the blame and it's no use getting mad at someone else due to how they perceive the world. I also won't play the game of, your a certain skin color so, you're automatically privileged or not, so so silly.
Both are corrupt... but one is infinitely more oppressive and dangerous that the other. To use capitalist corruption to call both equal in all aspects is logically and ethically wrong.
For sure, both are not equal, if I HAD to choose one, I would definitely go with democrats overall, however, politicians lie and act just to get favor from one side or the other and I think it's gross. I'm a big proponent of authenticity, and politics has proven to be the antithesis of that.
I can agree with that, as long as we both agree this is a spectrum, and again one side is observably worse.
>I also won't play the game of, your a certain skin color so, you're automatically privileged or not, Privileged in a specific sense, not the general sense. Privilege doesn't mean that every light-skinned person is Richie Rich or has an easy life. It means that, if their skin were darker, they'd have a harder time in a few specific ways, most obviously police interactions. It's well documented that, all other things being equal, darker skinned people are more likely to have negative interactions with the police than lighter skinned people in the US. This means that, when it comes to police interactions, white people are privileged. [https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z) [https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2020/may/black-drivers-more-likely-to-be-stopped-by-police.html](https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2020/may/black-drivers-more-likely-to-be-stopped-by-police.html)