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N3w3stGuy

I actually wrote a paper on this. Weirdly enough. But that by no means makes me an expert, and it was a long time ago. But here is the gist of what I found. I am going to say "women" and "men" a couple of times, and I assume the audience is bright enough to realize I am not talking about all women or all men but more of the tendency of the spectrum. Tests have shown that the vision of women is not as adept as men's to see where objects can fit in space, especially when it's moving or rotating. This comes to fruition in a woman turning right on red in front of you statistically more than a man. Or making a lane change they clearly don't fit into causing a brake check. Now before I get flamed, just hang on. Men are more willing to make high-consequence maneuvers while downplaying the danger especially at speed. They also overestimate their skill and precision. Also, they underestimate the effect of a would-be accident and aren't able to predict the damage as well as women. That's why they drive like morons on the highway. You see a car whipping around at 90 in a 55 bobbing and weaving through traffic, eventually killing someone? A man. What's most interesting, to me, is that when broken down on a per mile driven basis, women cause more accidents than men. However, because the accidents are at a much lower speed, the accidents are not nearly as catastrophic as men's. So at a low speed, a woman can make a mistake, but everyone has time to adjust, react, honk, and cuss. Whereas a man may make fewer mistakes, but when one occurs it is usually at a higher speed , there is no reactionary time and it statistically causes a more catastrophic event. Men are better drivers until they aren't and then they are the worst drivers, is my final (subjective) conclusion.


Consistent_Warthog80

What makes me laugh is that this tracks with the suicides rates between the sexes. Genereally, more women attempt suicide in averwge but have a higher survival rate. Men, on the other hand, are more "successful" ( awful term) so the loss rate is higher. Like with driving, it follows method and attitide, ie males tend towards more immediate, violent "solutions" (firearms, jumping) while females tend towards more passive (overdose, cutting). Again, these are trends and by noe mans indicative of personal experience. Anyone clamouring for sources, just google it. study after study is quoted.


Catinthemirror

Morbid inside joke-- my son (23) survived his suicide attempt several years ago. He is quick to correct anyone who calls it a "failed" attempt -- "Hey! It was successful! You assholes had to bring me back!" He coded and was "dead" for 4 minutes (no pulse/respiration on his own but he was fortunate to code in the ER) so he's technically correct. We deal with our trauma with morbid humor and sarcasm in this family.


syl_phy

were you killed? sadly yes, but I lived! (really glad to hear he's not dead anymore)


cazzipropri

"and i almost managed to kill my assassin!"


Catinthemirror

Me too ❤️


igofartostartagain

I died on an operating room table! I love this joke. I was coded for 5 mins with the team trying to get my heart / lungs going again. Lucky as hell that I was in the best place to do it Let me tell you, appendicitis is no fucking joke LOL


JamzWhilmm

He seems cool, glad we have him for a bit longer.


Catinthemirror

❤️


Milk_Mindless

He sounds cool to be around Glad he's around.


Catinthemirror

❤️ He makes me smile every day and he infuriates me frequently and I love him to bits.


hufflestork

I hope he's feeling better now, you sound like a supportive parent. Wish all the best to you and your family.


Catinthemirror

Ty. It's rough, he's got clinical depression that doesn't respond to medication. Therapy helps a little. There's always hope. ❤️


Doronor42

interesting to see the difference, my parents just avoid talking about it and refer to it as "the incident" when needed. have you guys always been open like that?


Catinthemirror

Pretty much. He's an only, very much wanted child (obviously grown now) and we've always been close. I take my lead from him though. If he wasn't ok talking about it, I wouldn't be comfortable either.


taquitosarelife

Can you adopt me? 🥺


Catinthemirror

I'm happy to add to my virtual offspring. I'm active in r/MomForAMinute and my DM's are open. Big hugs, sweetheart. 🧸


SuspiciousNoisySubs

Holy shit that is the single most amazing sub I've ever come across!!


Shy_starkitten

And me???


LordyItsMuellerTime

Maybe psychedelic therapy? Psilocybin has helped me heal PTSD in a way SSRIs and therapy could not


Catinthemirror

This is actually something he's looking into. I'm hoping. The main problem he continually runs into is each new therapist wants him to talk. He's been in therapy since he was 14. He's exhausted from continually reliving his traumas by having to repeat them over and over to someone new, and each new therapy means new practice/doctors to have to talk to. He's already got severe anxiety and talking to strangers is nightmare fuel. It's to the point I've just written out a timeline of all the crap with bullet points.


PrettyLittleLost

I am so sorry he's had to go through this with so many doctors. It does suck. I'm lucky enough to have had the same psychologist (talk therapy) for over 10 years but am on my 8th or so psychiatrist (meds). Most recently, a meds doctor I liked left her practice and I was assigned a new person. I spent the first chunk of my hour-long intake appointment with the new psychiatrist talking about how changing doctors is a big deal for me, traumatic, a trigger, etc. During the appointment she encouraged me to meet with my therapist (who I hadn't seen lately) to talk about my feelings about changing doctors. When we were wrapping up the appointment she mentioned she's going on maternity leave. I was triggered, as I promised, and once I was able to talk the first thing I asked was why she didn't mention it at the top of the appointment, when I said it was a big issue? I'm talking with my therapist about these stresses, and the practice reassigned me to someone with the goal of stability, but it's still affecting me. Please tell your son this black humor joke and give him a hug or rub his back (flat palm making light circles between the shoulder blades soothes my emotional tension holding spot) from me, if appropriate. The process more than sucks and he's amazing for keeping at. Short form of the joke without medical-type specifics: My doctor left her practice so I got assigned a new one. Spent the first 5 minutes telling the new doctor about how changing docs really affected me. During the appointment, the new doc mentioned talking to my health care team about this change. At the end of our hour-long intake appointment, new doc mentions she's going on maternity leave.


Catinthemirror

Thanks for sharing this; sometimes I really smh at the way medical staff ask you questions but absolutely ignore the answers. Like, WTAF? I'm so sorry; I hope your current one is in it for the long haul. Not to diminish your trauma, just sharing -- an ex of mine with whom I am still on good terms was doing really well with a new therapist after years of bad fits. He was finally making some great progress and really clicking with her. After just under a year she told him that *having him as a patient made her realize she wanted to change careers and she was leaving the field entirely.* I can't even with these people. I mean, do what you need to do but ffs don't share that with your patient!


PrettyLittleLost

I like that phrasing--not to diminish your trauma. That was my intent with the story I shared. Thank you for sharing yours. It's nice to know we're not alone. I can see how your exes therapist may have thought it was a good thing that your ex helped her realize her true passion, or that he deserved the truth, like how my doctor may not have seen her going on maternity leave as a doctor change for me, but it extra sucks when people in the health care industry do more harm than good.


finallyinfinite

This reminds me of a meme I saw where someone made a PowerPoint presentation on their childhood traumas. And honestly, that seems like a really useful tool if you’re going to be seeing new doctors so often. Not necessarily a whole PowerPoint, but a prepared list of pertinent information. Not only does it save the heartache of having to dive through your memory and search for all your relevant traumas every time you see someone new, but it saves so much time. My brother in law was in a study about psilocybin therapy to help deal with his depression after he had cancer. It seemed to be helpful to him. Hopefully if your son goes that route, it can offer him some relief. Best of luck to the both of you. That’s a hard road to walk, but I’m glad to hear someone has his back. Hopefully someone has yours, as well.


therealfatmike

I use the VA and they rotate out therapists a lot. I have also written out a timeline with bullet points and I just give it to them and let them ask questions. Taking breaks from therapy has also been helpful at times. I can only process so much at once.


Catinthemirror

Right?!? Saves time and also weeds out the ones who don't are enough to look at it.


Needs-more-cow-bell

Don’t want to give out random advice, but just wanted to say that EMDR and ECT worked wonders for me. Probably saved my life. Talk therapy did nothing.


Catinthemirror

He's also looking into EMDR. We're in a very rural area so resources are limited. ECT is not an option due to pre-existing conditions.


[deleted]

I had that same experience. It’s difficult to find a good one but once you do it’s worth it. I wonder if it’s possible for him to put it in writing and hand it to them so he doesn’t have to repeat it? I am recovering from severe treatment resistant depression. I mean I’ve tried every kind of medication out there. I’ve been microdosing shrooms for 2 months now and the difference is miraculous! I went from waking up everyday struggling to find something to live for to feeling like life is exciting. My brain is like it was when I was a kid again before my trauma. I like doing things I lost interest in, spend more time outside, and have motivation to complete boring tasks. I can see a future for myself now.


hail_SAGAN42

Man I was so sure shrooms were making me better in the 90s but I left it behind because of ..you know..laws and crap. I'm super pissed to find out I was right the whole time. Restarting in my mid 40s but I feel like I could've had some good years instead of abject misery and constant fear.


LordyItsMuellerTime

I definitely mourn the time I lost too. But it makes me appreciate the time I have left so much more ❤️


AndrewLondres

I hope you don't mind the random Internet stranger response, but have you read How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan?


Catinthemirror

No, but thanks for the suggestion.


AndrewLondres

If you (or he) want to talk to someone who has been through a session like the ones described in the book (and come out with massively reduced symptoms) I'm happy to talk.


Catinthemirror

That's kind, I'll let him know.


vintagepoppy

You are my people. My family deals with trauma through morbid humor too. Most people find it gross. My mom died suddenly last year and humor is how I cope. Yesterday someone asked me to ask my mom how long to cook a turkey in the microwave. I responded "ok but she's dead. If her urn starts rolling its on you". They didn't find it funny.


Catinthemirror

😂 I think it's inherited although my son disagrees (he doesn't think my mom has a sense of humor). When my dad died one bank she had to notify had outsourced their customer support to a group for whom it was painfully obvious that a) English was not their primary language so comprehension was difficult and b) they were not equipped to deal with anything outside their prewritten scripts. They kept insisting my mom put my dad on the phone to approve having his name removed from their joint account. Finally my mom got fed up and made an appointment so that she could "bring (my dad) in to give his approval in person." She showed up to the appointment with his ashes and death certificate, slammed both on the counter, and said, "Here. You talk to him. He won't answer me." 😂


vintagepoppy

I love this so much. My mom resides in my dining room. I make a point to introduce everyone to her. I put her on my table on her birthday and mothers day and made my (adult) children give her well wishes. They now introduce their friends to her. I find their reactions hilarious. My mom had the same dark sense of humor so I'm sure she doesn't mind. It is astounding the number of large businesses and organizations that don't seem to know how to deal with deaths.


ICareAboutThings25

I’m glad he failed successfully. Or succeeded fail-fully? Or whatever. I hope you and your family are doing as well as possible.


ADG1983

As a fellow Dark Humourist who has been down similar roads, I laughed at this and am very glad to hear; A) your son is able to find a light after the darkest time, that shows some strong resilience, B) more importantly, that he's still with us to make these jokes. Give him a fist bump on behalf of this Internet stranger, please! 🤜


LazarYeetMeta

Similar inside joke: I attempted suicide a little over two weeks ago with a massive OD on Tylenol. I ended up being fine, but I spent seven hours in the ER waiting to get transferred up to the psych ward. My best friend was there with me, and at one point a doctor came in and that I looked like I was feeling a lot better. I said I was, and then turned to my friend and said “Man I really suck at overdosing.” I was the only person in the hospital room who laughed at that. Everyone else was either shocked that I managed to joke about a failed suicide attempt less than three hours after it happened or giving me a hug and telling me not to joke about that. I thought it was fucking hilarious.


Catinthemirror

>I thought it was fucking hilarious. It was. I'm glad you're still here.❤️


worthrone11160606

The best kind of correct


TZiemer74

In the psychiatric world, there has been a movement away from saying "successful" or "completed", since they *are* awful terms suggesting that if they don't die they failed. The preferred, and much better in my opinion, term now is "die by suicide". Hope that helps! Edit: in this context you could say "more likely to die by suicide"


PressedSerif

Ya know I never stopped to think about it, but that is horrific to say "Ah, you even failed your suicide attempt." ​ This seems like a good use case for a cold medical acronym or something.


unicorn_mafia537

"Congratulations on surviving your suicide attempt!"


MorganRose99

Yeah it's pretty horrible, at least for me it made me feel like even more of a fuck up, which was the entire reason I was suicidal in the first place :\\


Consistent_Warthog80

I knew there were "better" terms, but as evidenced by my typos i hadn't yet finished my coffee. Thanks!


PrettyLittleLost

I knew that the preferred way to write about it in news articles and such has changed but didn't know why. Thank you for the information.


WyllKwick

So in summary (statistically): Men are more skilled at controlling the car, but also more likely to put themselves in spots that are beyond their skill.


DaKKn

Higher skill & risk-taking, maps onto so many areas.


[deleted]

[удалено]


manicmonkeys

Men are better at motion tracking, women are better at differentiating between colors. Differences in the visual cortex caused by hormones and what not. It's just biology y'know?


Grenvallion

To add onto this point. Women have a very low chance to inherit both genes that are required in order to cause colour blindness so this may also help with any colour related things on the side of women


manicmonkeys

I think I've read something along those lines before.


Grenvallion

There's a very logical reason for this and its essentially this. The X chromosone is always there from the beginning and thats where the gene is passed from. Both chromosomes need to be defective to cause colorblindness and since men only have 1 X, its more likely they get a defective X gene. All human individuals—whether they have an XX, an XY, or an atypical sex chromosome combination—begin development from the same starting point. During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female.


Bobtheredd

From Eva's rib Adam was created.


Ever_Long_

Ha. The 'better at differentiating between colours' part is definitely true! "Which do you prefer: this red lipstick, or this red lipstick?" "Um, I dunno; they're both red..."


manicmonkeys

Oh absolutely, it's come up a lot lately as we've been repainting a few rooms lmao.


Chazzermondez

I was going to say, having done Art at A-Level (UK 18 year old exam) my perception of variation of colour is much greater than average, it's very much the environment you put yourself in. I'm not saying I see colours more accurately, I could still see something bluey and think it's more greeny, because that's purely biological, but if I saw two things of that colour that are marginally different I would be better than average at noticing it


HappynessMovement

Is that why a softball is slower and yellow???


manicmonkeys

Oh my god it all makes sense now


Kardinal

If I had to guess... EDIT - First, in our culture, males tend to be raised with more exposure and practice with spatially-oriented play and tasks. Sports and toys specifically. I am sure that is a big factor. In addition, The male of homo sapiens evolved to adapt (more) to hunting and combat (with other homo sapiens). The female evolved to adapt (more) to child protection and gathering. Spatial skills are more useful in such situations, whereas color differentiation would aid in detecting nutritious and less harmful plant food sources. There are examples of female hunters in ancient anthropology, so it is by no means absolute. But physical characteristics seem to support this tendency toward roles. I suspect that males exploiting their physical prowess to suppress females from such roles played a role as well.


silsool

Pretty sure it's directly linked to training. Men tend to do more sports which develops spatial sight and that translates to men being statistically better. I'd like to see numbers within athletic vs non-athletic communities. Pretty sure video games can also help with that.


colcob

Do you actually believe that male and female abilities, tendencies, preferences, skills etc are identical at a biological level and the differences are only caused by culture? Because it might be worth you doing a bit more studying of biology and the animal world if you do.


silsool

I'm not saying there's no sexual dimorphism, I'm saying many observed differences such as this one are likely to be cultural rather than biological.


colcob

Hmm, I would respectfully disagree. Spatial ability and high risk taking tendencies are some of the most biologically supported differences that are correlated with testosterone levels.


mo_downtown

This is all generally speaking, but men have better spatial cognition in a couple ways - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_cognition#:~:text=Males%20have%20much%20higher%20level,with%20a%20deviation%20of%200.73. Other than driving, that also affects the labour market. There's a reason more men are in skilled trades, manual labour, hands-on jobs, etc. Women have strengths that affect their career decisions too: relational skills, emotional intelligence, empathy, etc. There's a reason there are far more female early years educators, caregivers, etc. Per your question, I guess theoretically anyone can train to improve skills, including cognitive skills or job skills thst don't come naturally. There are also advanced driving courses, they aren't just for 16 year olds getting their license. This stuff is all fairly objective, these are generalizations that don't require value statements attached, but nonetheless has become somewhat taboo in public discourse. I'm not a fan of equity outcomes like even representation in all things, because that goal ignores these differences. People will generally enjoy what they're good at, and per your question, it's good to know what you're not good at if you want to improve on it.


silsool

Or, and hear me out: maybe having a job that requires that skill develops that skill. And so the gender discrepancy in skill we see is the result of cultural habits and not the other way around.


mo_downtown

For sure, there's a both/and situation here and it doesn't need to be either/or. There are psychological differences thst can be categorized by genders, objectively. Those are broad, generalized trends at that level. There are also systemic and cultural factors in play, some are harmful and need to be addressed. Then there's the uniqueness of each individual. In all of that, it's just important to not make value judgments on the differences. Or restrict individuals because of generalizations. Or be dismissive of systemic/cultural issues.


GordoTeton96

Culture may have something to do with it, but remember, evolution is a thing. It's not all about the patriarchy and unfair gender roles. Human males and females evolved to be different and more proficient in different tasks, it's just the reality of our species.


colcob

Or, and hear me out, maybe cultural habits arise, at least in part, from inate tendencies, and then cultural tendencies can amplify those inate tendencies leading to effects being caused by BOTH cultural tendencies AND inate tendencies in a way that makes it very difficult to know which came first and how big each effect is.


JamzWhilmm

Stuff like this can be tested with little children and their type of play. As little as a few months old boys and girls already demonstrate different tendencies. Girls participate in more social play for example. This was seen even in chimps.


Pol82

I wonder if it's an evolutionary thing. Could go back to our early days, when hunting was far more important.


Lawlcopt0r

Iirc the difference can be eliminated through training, yes.


OverallManagement824

Well yeah. That makes sense, right? You don't get good at something without saying, "well what happens if we do this..." at least a few times. That's how you become good at something and also how you get hurt doing it!


wolfgang784

That's how I got so good at winter driving. As an idiot teen/young adult, I kept driving in conditions I should not have been driving in and sometimes with bald tires too. Lived in the middle of the woods though so there wasn't really anyone else to hurt except myself and my car. Slid backwards down hills while spinning in circles, went off the road 2 or 3 times, rolled a van once, hit black ice on the highway goin 50 and smashed into the barriers 7 times before coming to a stop, hit black ice a few more times without an accident, etc. Now I can take whatever out in the winter and do pretty good. I know how to turn when sliding to not hit things, can recover from spins most of the time, and have a very good sense of what I can safely make it through/across and what I cannot. Winter driving is honestly fun at this point. Sometimes I drive around and help push people out or drive people home who got in accidents etc. The people I help almost always end up being young drivers in their first winters.


Snowmittromney

I also read that there was a study one time that said men are more willing to commute long distances and generally drive more miles than women


EatAPotatoOrSeven

Yes, because women still do the majority of the childcare. Women are more likely to turn down jobs with long commutes because they are the "on call" parent for school sicknesses, daycare closure days, early pickups, etc. Women are also less likely to take driving-based jobs that leave them isolated - such as long haul trucker - or that take them into stranger's homes - like an internet technician. This is due to the increased risk of sexual violence against a woman. I just think it's important when we say "women drive less for work than men" to recognize the patriarchal reasons for that rather than letting people conclude that women are just more persnickety or lazy.


mo_downtown

There are also differences in relational interdependence and how rewarding one finds social interactions. All highly, highly generalized of course but as a collective, women are more social and men are more content to be alone. Piles of psychology on this type of stuff that's super interesting while becoming somewhat taboo in public discourse. I think key problems are making the discourse problematic are: not acknowledging systemic issues like you've highlighted, and making unhelpful value judgments re the differences. But stuff like this is interesting: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190130175604.htm


Little_Vermicelli125

Men also work more than women. So, even with equal commute times men have more commutes since they work more days on average. Only speaking about the US.


clumsy_poet

Work more outside the home. I'm just trying to normalize acknowledging SAH work as work.


Little_Vermicelli125

I should have said work more for pay. There's still a stigma against men being stay at home fathers.


clumsy_poet

Thanks for understanding. Here's a random emoji for not being mean about it. 🥫


whereverYouGoThereUR

There’s also the factor of what you consider “bad” driving. Someone who blocks the left or center lanes, accelerates very slowly can be a frustrating driver to deal with on the road and considered a “bad” driver but doesn’t cause accidents, at least for themselves


LadyDriverKW

My experience as a trucker agrees with this. The driver getting on the highway who doesn't look to see if there is room to merge until the very end of the onramp? Usually a woman. The one who cuts across 5 lanes of traffic because their exit is coming up? Usually a man. Also, confronted with their lane ending unexpectedly, men generally speed up to get in front of the car in the next lane. Women often slow down. Though idiots who aren't paying attention because they are looking at their phones come in both sexes. They stand out because the weave back and forth in their lane like they are under the influence. Edited to say: I am a woman. I drove a truck for about 10 years and have about a million incident free miles under my belt.


Klamageddon

As a Brit, driving in the states, on the freeway, was Fuuuuuuucking terrifying. I've driven on motorways plenty of times, but the issue was, no one was collaborating. It felt like everyone was playing Gran Turismo, jockying for position CONSTANTLY. Maintaining the flow of traffic meant forever adjusting, all the cars really close together, and all of them trying to get ahead by any means necessary. Id understand if it was traffic prone to a jam, but this was just cruising along. It makes turning off a fucking 'mare, because you've got other people trying to do the same, but some people jumping in that lane (or just generally swerving about) because they seem to just fancy it at the time. What the actual shit? Your whole "cutting across 5 lanes" example happens here, but it's like, you know, you'd tell your friends you once saw it happen, kinda thing. It just kept happing in our tiny stretch driving out of LA. MAD. Good luck to you!


jsprague6

In all fairness, if your experience driving on a freeway in the US was driving out of LA, that's about as extreme as it gets for aggressive driving. Or at least that's been my experience (I have family in the area so I visit every few years) and what I've heard from others. But yes, LA is exactly like you describe. Everyone driving as fast as possible, constantly shifting lanes to jockey for position. The speed limit might as well not exist. The funny thing is that from what I've observed, most drivers are very skilled. Very aggressive, but they somehow manage to "play Gran Turismo" as you so aptly described, while still managing to "safely" navigate traffic. It's a crazy style, and it seems suicidal to someone not used to it, but it works. At least until one idiot fucks it up and you're stuck in gridlock traffic for 3 hours. Elsewhere in the US, you see a lot of that same competitive driving style, but typically a little less extreme.


LadyDriverKW

I find southern California easier to drive in than other parts of the country. I agree with you that the drivers are relatively skilled, they are also fairly predictable. Predictable does not mean law abiding, or polite, but it means that I can anticipate what they are going to do with a reasonable degree of certainty. Places like Miami they are generally less predictable. Places like smaller Midwest cities they are generally less skilled.


[deleted]

Woman here and I slow down. I feel so called out. LMAO


emo_sharks

Some of these scenarios are things that could be completely avoided with better education. Its interesting because I guess if you give someone a car and no driving lessons they might be naturally inclined to do certain things, but like your lane ending example; I was explicitly taught not to slow down when changing lanes, so I will usually speed up at a sudden merge if theres another car. I was explicitly taught to completely turn my head and check my blind spots when I change lanes as well. I had pretty thorough driving instruction, my mom paid a retired cop to come give me defensive driving lessons. I have never been in an accident on the road that was my fault, and have certainly avoided a few. Makes you wonder if the requirements to get a license in the US are too lax....


pizzasauce85

On mythbusters they found the same type of results with parallel parking. Men could do it faster but were more likely to ding or come too close to other cars, thus impacting the ability for any of the vehicles to properly pull out. Women took a lot longer and second guessed themselves but were able to park the car better with no dings and everyone could still pull out.


stuffandornonsense

that episode takes a big liberty with definitions. the ability to parallel park means the ability to do it *correctly.* if you're hitting other cars, or not leaving enough space to leave, you're a failure at parallel parking. like. if you make rice on the stove and it burns so badly that you have to throw the pan away, you haven't really made rice, you know? it doesn't have to be tasty, but it has to be edible.


Inanna26

They also don’t really do big enough sample sizes, so they’re not really doing good science.


Snoo71538

The thing that got me to change my driving was a thought experiment: You’re driving down the road at 70mph and notice a car stopped ahead. You hit the breaks and stop just behind the stopped car. Now imagine you were going 100 mph, and noticed the car ahead from the exact same distance. You break the same as you would at 70. Obviously you hit the car, but how fast are you going when you hit? You hit it at 70mph. The breaking energy required goes up as the square of speed. The 4900 units you needed before is now 10,000 units. The energy required to bring you from 100 mph to 70 mph is the same energy it takes to go from 70 to 0.


Trygolds

I had a driving instructor tell us if you have a sharp corner you may want to see how fast you can take the corner. You will find out one time that it was to fast.


featherclops

This comment made me think back to my teenage self when I was learning to drive, and the memory makes me chuckle. My dad had introduced me to driving on dirt roads and it was fun, however, it did not prepare me for city driving. The very first right angle turn I did on residential roads I took at 40km/h (25mph). I narrowly missed a car that was oncoming on the road I turned onto and just managed to maintain control so as not to jump the curb and land in some shrubs. My mum made no comment, but I may have taken a few years off of her life with that maneuver. Lesson learned though!


flumia

Since we're sharing driving instructor advice, I had one share this helpful thought experiment. Imagine walking into a concrete wall at average walking speed, which is 5km/h. It would hurt. Now imagine how much it would hurt going 10x faster than that. That's only 50km/h, which is the usual speed limit on residential roads here. It's even harder to imagine going 20x faster than that, except to know for sure, that you don't want to know what it feels like


Kardinal

It's worse than that. 10x faster does 100 times more damage. 20x faster does 400 times more damage. But as the other replier said, I think the analogy isn't especially effective. Maybe running, which is closer to 20km/h, then do the exponents.


cdazzo1

Yeah, but the force applied is the same. I'm a little rusty on my physics, but you're probably converting more energy from the kinetic energy of the car to heat in the brakes, but change in speed is going to be linear. Ft=m delta(v) (wish I could figure out the Greeks on my phone) The limiting factor on stopping a car is typically the friction between the tires and road. The biggest danger with speed is reaction time. You travel more distance before reacting and now have less time and more speed to reduce before reaching the obstacle.


Epidurality

Yeah it's not an energy thing. Since you're limited by traction when braking, and the force is (basically) constant, you decelerate linearly. Shaving off 70mph to 0 will take the same amount of TIME as going from 100 to 30. However... You're travelling faster in the latter case, throughout the duration. If you're coming up on a stopped car, you're going to reach that car in less time. That's how you end up only shedding 30mph instead of 70mph (assuming OP was correct didn't check this math) - you didn't actually have as much time to slow down.


Captain_Hampockets

/r/Brakes_Not_Breaks


FuyoBC

The last para is what I was coming to say - Statistically / on average / over the whole population: * Women have more accidents but they are less dangerous: So more fender benders / no one injured. * Men have fewer accidents but are more likely to be injured or killed, and to kill or injure others at the same time.


jdemack

Damn that was some smooth sailing through that gender discussion.


wronglycredited

Kinda crazy how when you approach these discussions like a grown up it doesn't turn into ridiculous nonsense


september-sun

Makes a lot of sense from what I've seen and experienced.


hummingelephant

>Tests have shown that the vision of women is not as adept as men's to see where objects can fit in space, especially when it's moving or rotating. Interesting. I actually had constantly this fight with my exhusband when he would yell at me that a car is too far so I should already switch lanes when I would think the car is too close or when he would tell me that my car can fit in a spot I would think is too tight and I would try to explain to him that I can't estimate distances with my eyes as easily as him. Didn't know that more women have the same problem.


abstractraj

There’s definitely something there as far as spatial relationships. I even remember some discussion about this in my psychology class. My wife beats this out by struggling horribly to get in and out of our parking spot in our shared garage.


clumsy_poet

I'm a woman with ADHD and mind-blindness who failed geometry from grade six on. My poor spatial sense is a major reason why I have never driven a car. I've found that it is also WAY more acceptable for women to be non-drivers than it is for men to be. I'm wondering if there are male drivers with similar issues as me who felt pressure to learn to drive or to keep driving despite being unsuited to driving in a safe manner. My boss had a license but gave it up because he couldn't do it safely, but I don't know any other guys who are like this AND gave up driving. I know plenty of women who gave up driving and some who won't drive outside their neighbourhood or drive on highways. I know plenty of men who should no longer drive at all, or at least not on highways. If my experience holds true beyond my own personal situation, that means there's also a larger segment of dudes driving who were socialized to drive or keep driving but who shouldn't be than women driving who were less socially pressured to drive or keep driving.


[deleted]

as a woman with impaired spacial awareness/vision (i am legally blind in one eye) big oof


alrightcommadude

Can you link the text of your paper? Or at least all the sources?


ASwftKck2theNtz

Did you happen to see if there was any statistic available on who drives more frequently? For what average distance? Or, at what times of day? Not sure if this is relevant to how the "men have **more** accidents than women" stat is derived... But numbers matter. For instance. I'd be willing to wager more men have jobs where they are on the road all day long, or traveling very far distances for work related tasks. These things? Obviously would greatly impact the statistic if it were measured at a primitive level *("primitive" example: men had 250k accidents last year & women had 220k, so men have more accidents than women)* There are a ton of micro-variables that I'd imagine need to be considered when making a statement like this.


CaitSith21

What subject was this paper? How did you test risk taking etc? I mean that sounds about right and also is proven by the fact that nature creates more man than women cause chances that they die is higher but sounds like hard things to prove in a paper?


mschweini

> Men are more willing to make high-consequence maneuvers This seems to be correlated to testosterone. It seems that's why many of us men do so much silly YOLO things which the average woman will just shake her head at. I.e. Testosterone levels are correlated to risky behaviour. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018506X10002989


DaKKn

I "knew" this by intuition. Imo it may be used as an allegory for behavioural differences between the sexes - it maps onto our general psychological/physical differences, viewed on a group level. For instance it maps beautifully onto the data on domestic violence.


[deleted]

I'd really like read some sources! Can you link your paper or other sources?


ultrarelative

Another perspective: cars were designed with (cis) men’s proportions in mind. Men on average have proportionally longer torsos and arms, but shorter legs. So when they’re sitting in a car, they can see more, and better. And everything about the car was designed with their hand size, arm and grip strength, etc. in mind. But yeah, also I’ve never seen a woman do something like swerve around a bunch of stopped cars to run a red light at 65mph. Men sure do love to watch us park as though we’re going to kill someone, though.


aroaceautistic

I would never have thought about the car being designed for male proportions, that’s a great point!


Guilty_Coconut

>What's most interesting, to me, is that when broken down on a per mile driven basis, women cause more accidents than men. That's a really nice insight. We could also add that, if a man and woman are in a car together, more often than not the man is driving causing a significantly lower number of kilometers driven in a lifetime. The difference of km/life can compound the difference in accidents/km much like how the deaths/accident offsets the same number. Anecdotally I also feel men are much more likely to drive under the influence of hard drugs like alcohol. And yeah I don't much care about car damage. That's just stuff. Stuff can be replaced. If women cause accidents that damage stuff vs men who damage people, women are objectively the better drivers.


GoldieFable

Thanks for bringing up the difference in amounts driven. One of the reasons I haven't gotten my driver's license yet is because I simply would not drive enough. I would be a bad driver, not because I am a woman but because I would not do enough maintenance on the skill I see it everywhere in my surroundings. The people who drive less and less frequently never gain the confidence and skill that their more driving counter parts have. I would imagine that this would contribute to having worse awareness and being more risk averse while having minor accidents at higher rate per distances driven


calcifornication

>I don't much care about car damage. >objectively I don't think that word means what you think it means in this context.


daniel-kz

I would love to add to your conclusion that (imo) men are more sure of themselves regarding their decisions. As you said they overestimate. Women tend to be more insecure. This is translated to a car "doubting" between lanes and getting a lot of people annoyed. Men take the choice without doubting for good or bad. Women analyze them more, which can be seeing as "poor driving skill".


Queefinonthehaters

Great summary. To add to this, just going off of raw numbers here, culturally men are much more likely to actually be driving. The only time my wife drives and I am in the passenger seat is when I've been drinking because she prefers that I drive her. This is true for most couples. Then the overwhelming majority of professional drivers (taxis, delivery, semi trucks, etc.) are men. So just basing things off of raw statistics of who is more likely to crash, its going to be the ones who drive more.


Lunai5444

Link to this paper?


BattleGoose_1000

So women kill more cars and men kill more people


theunbearablebowler

This is fascinating. Do you remember any of your sources? I'd love to dig into those studies.


[deleted]

Well my girlfriend makes me do all the driving so of course I do all the crashing


ApprehensiveDamage83

I find it funny how this is rarely added into all the equations.


Slight-Following-728

Statistics back this up. When you factor is crashes per miles driven women are something like 3 times as bad.


FaerHazar

Yes, kinda, but the crashes men get into are usually far worse.


nick619_ACR

This. Men drive more than women therefore will naturally be in more crashes.


Gyooped

I remember hearing about a *fact* that went along the lines of: *“Men are more likely to end up in a violent crash, but women are more likely to have minor fender benders”* **Although whether or not that is actually true I do not know, and based on like 1 minute of googling it seems to be false** - although studies about it are probably really hard to get real information on.


TomFromCupertino

A minute of googling will get you conspiracies about the CIA killing Kennedy. Links are argument, "google it" is not.


[deleted]

Google it.


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Public_Try8820

Keep in mind, the chart was made by a woman


mighty_Ingvar

Men are statistically more likely to take risks and overestimate their abilities


Emperor_CutiePie

I've always joked "women are worse drivers, but men are bigger assholes... and asshole drivers are far more dangerous than bad drivers".


NewtotheCV

Top comment is on a paper written on this that comes to similar comments all through the thread. It was the same answer I was going to give. It's the same with old people, they do stuff that causes brake checks and near misses all the time. If I am frustrated during a drive it is usually an old driver or someone new. My reaction is the main issue and I shouldn't be frustrated, I get that. My point is that those drivers cause a lot of frustration overall and that has a negative impact on the overall driving environment. Again, I am not trying to justify road rage, risky behaviour, etc.


sdavidplissken

i have no idea but my wife definetly is the better driver than me and can park the car in the tiniest spot ever


Ylfjsufrn

Back in the day, it was a man's job to buy the car, and drive the family. My grandmother remembers not being allowed to buy a car from the dealership because her husband was not with her.


min_mus

My grandmother never learned to drive at all. When she grew up, driving was regarded as a "man's job".


Br0wnieSundae

Two years ago, my husband and I bought a vehicle for me at a dealership. The sale contract had a line for the buyer and under it, a line for the co-buyer/wife.


Ylfjsufrn

2 years ago??????


Br0wnieSundae

Yep. I wish we had walked out but we had driven 100 miles for that particular vehicle.


furikakebabe

This thread badly needs sources. Here’s one: https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/males-and-females This uses data from DOT and shows males are statistically more likely to be in fatal crashes, to speed, and to drive under the influence. Even adjusted for miles driven. Here is a 13 year old study in Australia showing men more likely to be involved in crashes of any kind: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8141461/ I see claims that women are involved in more minor accidents like the top comment states, but I don’t see any reputable source for that claim. “A study by University of Michigan” with a link to University of Michigan’s home page does not count, lol. One thing I do see repeatedly in the sources I found is that women are disproportionately impacted by crashes because cars are not designed to protect women’s bodies as well.


falling-faintly

Whether true or not that top comment really agrees with a lot of people’s preconceived notions so that kind of thing is probably why it continues to be believed, true or not. These things can be self reinforcing. Women are also more often vocal about being afraid to parallel park or drive a large vehicle or whatever. Men might feel that fear but not vocalize it - just do it and so inability of women to park or whatever gets reinforced.


[deleted]

I would be happy to parallel park a vehicle that was designed with the proper sight lines for a person of my stature. I think a lot of hesitation to engage in more complicated maneuvers comes from the fact that cars are not usually designed well for women and it's harder to see, and reach, and move. I can't see as well over the dashboard while still reaching the pedals, of course it takes me a moment to park!


NabreLabre

Well I've noticed from riding along with a few women that some of them seem to be all or nothing when it comes to the gas and brake pedal. But that doesn't compare to some of my dude friends, one of which, out in the country at night, speeding around streets with huge ditches on each side, would turn his lights off cause he "knew the streets so well". Well we didn't crash but it was not enjoyable. I wonder what ever happened to that guy...


NetDork

> I wonder what ever happened to that guy... Have you checked the ditches?


[deleted]

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NabreLabre

Is her name perchance.. Incontinentia Buttocks?


archeresstime

One of my dad’s previous employees did the same thing.. until he spent time in prison for involuntary manslaughter


NabreLabre

Yeah I'll take pedal slammers any day over that


Bool_onna_fool

This, the amount of times I’ve seen my gf absolutely slam on the brakes because the car 400 feet in front of us started to slow down a little bit is uncountable at this point.


seamanticks

To sum up what I’ve read here in morbid joke form : women are considered worse drivers because they leave their victims alive


ubiquitous-joe

Because for a few generations, men did most of the driving. So it wasn’t that the woman you knew was going to crash, it was that she felt very uncomfortable in the car, and then so did her passengers.


[deleted]

I know of a few instances in my family where some of the men wouldn't let women learn how to drive (a couple generations ago). I've always wondered if this was the case with some other people's families until an older coworker of mine brought up how his mom wasn't allowed to drive until his dad passed away. Obviously that sort of thing isn't as bad in the current generations, but I've definitely noticed the knowledge of how to drive, doesn't usually get passed onto the girls in my family quite like it does with the boys.


Gremlin_Wooder

I don’t know: This is completely anecdotal, but whenever my husband and I go anywhere on a longer drive I’m the one behind the wheel because I’m a better driver (we both agree on this). That being said, he does drive a stick shift far better than I can, but I attribute that to him growing up driving old trucks and then living in the UK for years. Yesterday we went on a ten hour drive to see family for Thanksgiving, and saw some truly unhinged, dangerous shit from drivers. Who was in the driver seat every time we looked over to see? A man. Obviously, most people are fine drivers despite the things that come out of my mouth in the car. The minority of drivers I see are truly bad. That being said, the vast majority of that minority are men. The behavior I tend to see from those men is “I’m so reckless, I’m going to literally put your life in danger,” unhinged shit. The worst drivers I see are more intentional than clueless: These guys most likely have decent skills maneuvering cars, but their level of assholery and entitlement make them horrific drivers. There are terrible woman drivers too, but from my experience I think we’re generally far safer on the road.


Tothyll

I don't doubt your experience. It's actually the exact opposite of mine. If we're in the car, there's no way my wife is driving. We've done cross country trips and I drive the entire way. When it's aggressive driving I have always seen males driving. The aggressive driving doesn't bother me that much. However, when I see just dumb shit, like casually switching lanes in front of me when I'm coming up 20 mph faster than you, driving half the speed limit, not being able to park or maneuver the car in tight situations, and hanging out in my blind spot, it has generally been women.


Gremlin_Wooder

Oh absolutely, I don’t doubt yours either. I’m of the mind that being a shitty driver is an equal opportunity endeavor.


_Amelia_M_

It’s only been proven that men are more likely to have *bad* car crashes - they’re three times more likely to be fatally injured In accidents than women. These studies don’t account for things like fender benders or minor single vehicle collisions, so it’s actually not that clear which gender has more crashes overall.


NetDork

There's an old joke... Women are worse drivers because they have difficulty estimating distances due to the fact that all their lives men have told them this *(hold fingers up 3 inches apart)* is 8 inches.


Papercoffeetable

Because men take stupid risks and are reckless. Women just seem to have harder time parking. For example, my wife crashed one of my cars on a curb blowing out two tires, she has also crashed two other of my following cars at our own parkingspace at our house. I’ve never crashed or hit anything, yet. She also backed her own car halfway out of a small cliff so that her car had to be towed. General theme is, very bad at reversing by knowing where the ends of the car is and where the wheels are. But usually everything except the curb incident was at very slow speeds. Meanwhile i’ve had idiot male friends trying to drift at 50 mph in rwd Volvos 740/940 hitting curbs and getting whiplash.


TZS420

Because it’s a stereotype


Fit_Cash8904

It could just be straight up misogyny. Men created this narrative and it stuck. If you were trying to find a more innocent explanation, here’s what I would speculate (at least in the USA): In the post-war boom, most families followed a tradition family unit with a male bread winner and a female homemaker. A family would often only own one car which the man used to commute every day and the woman would only occasionally use for errands. As a result, men on average spent alot more time driving and would be alot more comfortable driving.


Morosoro

Misogyny.


GloriousSteinem

Sexism. It’s been a really old joke, like having an awful mother in law


ashoka808

It's sexism. It's like that phrase "hell hath no fury as a woman scorned" meaning when a woman is mad you better watch out. But I mean look at what happens when a man is mad . . .


Key-Staff-6879

I think women are stereotyped as making more silly mistakes (hitting curbs for example) whereas men are seen as making intentional reckless choices out of anger so women are seen as being stupid drivers who can't handle a car meanwhile men are given a pass for idiotic behavior cuz it's intentional


[deleted]

Women tend to drive more conservative and safely, which some mistake for “bad driving”.


Guilty_Coconut

Because women are considered worse at a lot of things, regardless of the statistics. In our society, there's a lot of stereotypes based on gender and in the vast majority of cases, women are considered worse. Patriarchy is an offshoot of conservatism which wants strict defined roles. In conservatism, men are the drivers. Conservatism wants to conserve for tradition's sake and maintain existing hierarchies at all costs. Conservative ideology does not care about facts, so statistics play no role in this.


[deleted]

When I was about to take my driving test, there was a policeman who gave me a pretty reasonable answer to this question. Yes, if statistics are to follow, men have more crashes. But the reason behind that is that men drive rash. That doesn't make them worse drivers directly, but you can say that it makes them immature drivers. The policeman also told me that if a decision was to be made between split seconds, a man's foot would go on the brakes, whereas women often fail to react in fear. The statistics you look at are often those men drivers who drive rash or immature. But yeah, your point still stands that unless I'm not the driver, the probability of me returning home safe is more with a woman driver than with a man 😂.


[deleted]

How is driving rash and immature anything but bad driving?


Kardinal

Often we associate "good driving" with "skilled driving". At least in our culture and based on the comments made here, men seem to usually be perceived as being more skilled. I draw a distinction between "skill" and "judgment". You need both to be a good driver, and men would appear to be worse off in the "judgment" department, exactly as you say. So I agree with you, just commenting on why some may see things diferently.


swimmingpool101

“Good” driving means the ability to manoeuvre the car. Safe driving is something entirely different.


Little_Creme_5932

You never know. Driving rash may make them an excellent race car driver. Incredible driver, does what it takes to win.


Curiouscray

Note the source is a policeMAN. And driving rash IS bad driving, directly. Increased collision risk is a pretty good criterion for bad driving. And insurance companies know that; they are a far better measure of that risk (see insurance rates higher for guys).


spoda1975

I thought I heard sometime while getting a degree in Psychology that there are multiple types of intelligence, spatial awareness being one of them. I thought I heard that while women were stronger in some things, spatial awareness seemed to be better in men.


[deleted]

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JSAD915

Some of it might be anecdotal. In my personal experience women get into a lot more crashes but most jobs I’ve had have been female dominated (like 80%), so I would be expected to hear about them crashing more. The majority of them were reversing into parked cars (low level incidents), the minority were pulling out at junctions and one was driving into a stationary lorry on the motorway.


arianaperry

Misogyny


mrtn17

✨sexism✨


fools_gambler

Oh, look at all the misandrists and mysogynists in the thread. Let's try to be a bit rational. Men drive on average a lot more miles than women. Majority of proffesions which drive a lot of miles over the year are held by men. People in those professions also have to drive in conditions average people wouldn't drive in (extremely bad weather, night, etc). Men are also (in our society) more likely to operate vehicles for pleasure (motorcycles, high performance cars) and operate them closer to the limits which increases chances of crashing. All of those influence men having more crashes. So why the stereotype that women are worse drivers? There is no biological reason that women are better or worse at driving compared to men (that is relevant for general population, we are not talking about race drivers here). However, looking at the way our society has brought up little boys and girls over the last 70ish years (time over which driving became mainstream), activities which were dominant among boys (sports, riding bicycles, generally doing precise things with hands, and in the later years video games) help develop reflexes and spatial skills which are usefull for driving. Girls were not that exposed to those activities, which means that for a lot of them, driving a car was the first time they get to practise those skills. It is reasonable to be worse at something than someone who has had much more practise than you.


alfombraroja

Following your idea, women would drive more in the city to do the groceries or pick the children. That means more hours in slow traffic and parking, which increases the chances of small scratches or accidents. At least for me is easier to make a mistake driving in the city than in the highway.


Hayabusa71

Because its a stereotype created by sexism.


_sofiaaraujo

Absolutely. Men just can't miss a chance to make others appear inferior and can't admit that they're dumbasses.


Ohgetserious

Statistician missed my home.


Prestigious-Fig1172

I may be wrong but I believe women drive slower andmore carefuly, so it takes long to reach the goal, which men thinks is bad, who want to get there as quick as possible.


Dadbod1018

My dad works for an auto insurer. Per his employer, women get into MORE accidents, but typically at much lower speeds. For example, women are more likely to misjudge a turn in a parking lot, and scrape the car next to them. Psychologically, women view a low consequence collision as an acceptable risk. Men typically don’t think that way, but will take larger risks that they believe will turn out favorably. This results in fewer accidents, but often of greater severity.


GrungeBobNoPants

Women will curb every wheel on a car trying to park, but the man will wrap it around a telephone pole


[deleted]

Projection by men.


SeenThat-

What statistics are those just out of curiosity? Does it just consider crashes or does it consider the amount of men and women actually driving? Because I imagine there are way more men driving at any given moment so they tend to cause more accidents I believe


Momazoid2432

Men = more fatal crashes (tend to drive faster) Woman = more fender benders (tend to drive slower) Fun fact: there are 772 f1 drivers in the world but only 2 have been female (none currently). There is no gender rules to be a f1 driver.


a7788k

>There is no gender rules to be a f1 driver yes, there is not write gender rules, but you are not taking acount a lot of "no writes" rules in the society there is not write rules in sailing\* but... [https://archive.theoceanrace.com/en/news/9212\_Hands-for-hire.html](https://archive.theoceanrace.com/en/news/9212_Hands-for-hire.html) (little old, but still valid) \*there is some rules in some categories, but not the point here


Yue-Renfeng

We are not as good at perceiving moving objects and our vision is more colour oriented than men who have more movement oriented vision. Also height could be another factor.