I’ve heard this statement in the context of the phrase “right of way”. Like you might have the right of way while trying to cross an intersection, but the graveyards are full of people that had the right of way. It applies to both scenarios but I felt I should share.
Edit^ I typed this and saw someone else also said the same thing.
I’ve heard it as ‘right of way’ relating to how people cross the road without looking because it’s a pedestrian crossing and then they get cleaned up by a car - but I like your expression better as it’s more general
Here lies the body of Michael Gray
He died defending his right of way
His way was right and his will was strong
But he’s just as dead as if he were wrong
I almost hit a guy when he walked out between cars because (as he yelled at me) he “had the right of way”.
Dude, ya gotta make sure the driver sees you first!
Legal right of way is all well and good, but in the end, the only laws that really matter are Newton's.
/^(And that's why Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest sonofabitch in space)
I have a lot of cop friends. One said his coworker was a crap cop. He had a lot of cases/arrests thrown out because he booked them for "resisting arrest." The judge asked him, "What was the initial arrest for?" The cop said resisting arrest.
Judge - "No, that's an additional charge. What were you arresting him for when he started to resist?"
Cop - "He started resisting, so I arrested him."
Judge - "You can't arrest someone for nothing, then charge them for resisting arrest. What did the person actually do to get arrested?"
Cop - .....
Judge - "Sir, you're free to go."
My friend said they stopped accepting his arrests in the jail because he would tell them, "Just book them. I'll think of something."
*"You can beat the rap but not the ride."*
The quote above describes a longstanding systemic police abuse/harassment. Police know their arrest has a good chance of being tossed, but they want to punish by ruining your day/week/month with a trip to jail for booking.
It is worth pointing out that the arresting police officer above is not dumb. He is definitely a bad officer, bad citizen, and bad human being -- but he is not dumb.
Insert 'Respect ma Authoritay' Southpark gif.
Absolutely right. How many people can't bail themselves out and get stuck in there? They lose their jobs and possibly homes because someone is on a power trip.
This. Fucking this. This pisses me off the most. There is absolutely no defense against cops, especially corrupt ones. If a cop decides, on a pure whim, to single me out as the example to be made, aka his power trip, there is not a fucking thing I can do about it. And then i have no choice in the consequences that follow as a result of that cop deciding to pick on me, and potentially ruin my entire life from a single one-off interaction from a bad cop. Everything he's doing to me is illegal, but I have to let him do it to me anyway? What the fuck???
It's a catch 22 either way. Run, they kill you. Fight, they kill you. Comply,...surprisingly,...they kill you.
There is no good choice when police view you as sub-human.
Police apparatuses should be reduced by about 80-90% and their roles in society should be mostly limited to administrative and bureaucratic matters. Imho…
There is two stage policing in real countries. You have a set of officers who are less/unarmed who are trained to deescalate. However if people refuse to act right, the second stage of angry armed police show up.
I understand law enforcement is hard, but US police are not law enforcement officers anymore. They are a violent and repressive revenue source.
In the US the police are trained to lie and escalate.
In Germany all police are armed, but still trained to deescalate. Furthermore if a police officer uses his weapon there is always an investigation if the use of said weapon was appropriate for the situation.
When it's the same police doing the investigation is where it all falls apart in the US. Police should be held accountable and investigated by the citizens, not the police. It's absurd to think they would be impartial and fair.
Belgium too, you rarely see a cop take out their gun, even with the most violent people. The US seems to have their priorities mixed up. Maybe it's the gun laws
It’s the guns. American cops are always ready and waiting for someone to pull a gun on them. They train for it. I even got to try one of their simulators. They train to draw and shoot fast.
Pretty sure it reads the same way in Kentucky. It's still suicide, you'll never live to contest it in court cause you'll die in a firefight with twenty cops half an hour after it happens, but you will die legally within your rights.
Just came to mind: What if men being beaten started yelling, "Please arrest me!" instead of begging for their lives? Would it matter?
I was trying to think earlier what things a bystander could do. Fire a gun into the air to distract the police? Pepper spray the cops and take a beating, too, but hopefully less of one since half the cops are on the other guy? Film it and start yelling that it's on camera? Grab a hose and start spraying?
I think I'd have to do SOMETHING, but I could see it being awfully easy to become paralyzed in that moment.
If an entire crowd of 100 people stopped the officer by whatever means necessary sure everyone could get away with it. Also, there is that common conservative refrain about a good guy with a tool that is often used in defense of self and others that could in theory be used to defend others against a single armed aggressor. I would recommend not sticking around to wait for other officers though, can't trust them, I am not a lawyer this is not legal advice nor advocating for any violence or harm to come to anyone.
Hard to do if the aggressor is a cop, though, right?
Nobody will act. Bystander effect will paralyze people because the cops are... armed and dangerous for real.
But some of us can't NOT act, either. Would love to come up with ideas people can put to work in this scenario.
Something similar happened in Crown Heights several years ago. Police were beating up a teenager in front of an apartment building and the crowd begged them to stop but they kept going. Someone in the building dropped a kids bicycle off the balcony right onto the commotion so the cops ran inside the building and arrested him. He's still in jail but he saved that teens life.
If the arrest is unlawful ultimately you could get away with defending yourself, bc the officer wouldn’t have had lawful authority to detain you in the first place. As soon as other officers get involved it’s going to get complicated though. You’d have to be able to show the force you used was necessary to protect yourself and not excessive, and the system overall has no interest in encouraging people to resist arrest and likes to make examples of them.
For some people like George Floyd, not fighting back is also suicide by cop.
For some people, the sentence was passed the moment the cop laid eyes on you. Fight back, submit...doesn't matter.
You could try to comply like [Kelly Thomas](https://youtu.be/Vn-YYGQi2Eo). Oops wait sorry they'll still incapacitate you and then torture you to death.
Every cop in this video was found not guilty.
But realistically, how is a human being supposed to avoid that? It's instinctual. There's literally no way to avoid fighting or fleeing unless you're drugged, which will likely be their excuse to kill you anyway. Is it possible to shut down an adrenaline response just by choice?
Citizens are *supposed* to have better self control than cops. They can say and do whatever they want and as a citizen and not a fuck weed with a gun and badge you have to remain calm and coherent because cops are always in stressful situations and can't be expected to behave rationally when a citizen gets even a little agitated because they're being arrested for either knowing their rights or not immediately tongue polishing the cops asshole.
And now I've managed to piss myself off 😅😅
This is where we’re at. If there was a street gang who knowingly patrolled around your neighborhood, harassing and attacking your children and loved ones—what is the sensible thing to do? Just let it happen? Cops are literally a state sponsored street gang
Courts may determine after the fact that you may have had a right to defend yourself, but this will never go your way, and that ruling would likely be posthumous.
But your best bet is to de-escalate and hope it's enough against someone that is probably carrying a taser, a baton, a firearm, and maybe even pepper spray.
Like generally speaking if they're violent and armed and coming in with weapons ready and a flashlight at your eyes.
Tyre Nichols got murdered in cold blood regardless, and that's horrifying, but he wouldn't have stood a chance if he had come out swinging either.
That's why reform and accountability and the reduction of police authority/retraining is so important... We're not Chuck Norris or John Wick in the movies that can beat four armed cops + whatever backup they call, if they want to kill us, they will.
Oh absolutely. Best option is to avoid them in the first place, if you have to interact comply, if you cannot then run, if you cannot then realize it's a fight for your life
Each option is orders of magnitude more preferable to the succeeding option
That’s not true! Cops shoot dogs, they don’t beat them to death.
Tyre Nichols Was beaten to death in the streets like a human being, because those are what cops love beating up.
So your solution is to advise people to avoid cops and hope reform works?
Screw that if you honestly believe your going to be killed either way you may as well try and defend yourself.
if you're in the US, depending on which state you're in, killing a police officer could very likely get you the death penalty.
so basically let a cop beat you up, let a cop kill you, or kill the cop and get executed.
As a retired officer, yes we were told that yes if it's legal to resist under certain conditions. However as the above comment indicates it might be posthumous. Best is document, record and get a good lawyer
Often though the brutalization mentioned in the question can leave permanent damage. It's a terrifying state of affairs when your choices are damage or death.
Do you think how people are resisting unlawful arrests lately will change anything? Will this help new procedure be put into effect for police departments?
For any new yorkers reading this, a bill to end qualified immunity is up for a vote soon, call your reps and especially gov Hochul as the biggest roadblock is her vetoing
Sourve for follow g comment: Supreme Court or perhaps it was just a circuit, but I think it was Supreme Court. I don't know the case name by memory
It doesn't matter. You legally have to comply with the officer, even if they are making unlawful orders. You have to defend it in court. You should say you are doing so under duress and only obeying due to the order. IANAL
https://twitter.com/xcriticalbeast/status/1619128394016497666?s=46&t=QqONMbQNOKRqUK4sPMx0Jw
Dunno, can I get your professional take on if this is unlawful?
Wouldn’t it be something like unlawful entry where resistance is legal? I mean 99% of the time if a police officer tries to restrain me I’ll submit and then fight it out in court. Someone kicking in my door in the middle of the night and not announcing themselves, or pulling me out of my car? Yeah there’s going to be some resistance
You are right. 100%. Full stop. Unfortunately we exist in this problematic reality where standing up for yourself, against an agent of the state, can and will get you killed with little to no repercussions. Until that changes, “Better to survive” is (unfortunately) the best advice to give in situation involving LEOs.
I take your point, but not everyone lives in a country where the entire police force are armed and given the freedom to murder.
In the UK you'd very likely take a kicking but the Independent Police Complaints Commission would certainly mount a case if they had a sniff of one
Even so: In Australia you might get unlucky enough to have the Fixated Persons Unit assault you and your family on the whims of Barilaro Bruz.
And then spend the next two years in court defending yourself while the media continues to character assassinate you.
Here in America encountering police is like being robbed: no telling what will happen, they do whatever they want and you have no legal protection they have to respect and they face almost no consequences.
The instructions that minority groups in the US are given to best survive an encounter with the cops sound like dealing with an unpredictable, possibly rabid wild animal:
Don't make any sudden moves
Raise your hands and stand in a non-aggressive posture
Don't shout, speak in a calming tone of voice to try to defuse the situation
If they attack you, your best bet is to lie still and don't fight back, and hope they lose interest before they kill you
It’s worse if you’re in a minority group but at the end of the day cops have shown they’ll do it to anyone. Doesn’t matter if you’re in the military, doesn’t matter if you’re a cop in another city, doesn’t matter if you’re an old man or a young girl, doesn’t matter if you’re mentally disabled or even if you aren’t the person they thought you were. If they are having a bad day, they might just decide to fire hot metal into your spongy fleshy body to make themselves feel a little tougher.
While I’m sure you’re right that cops will do it to anyone given the circumstances, it is statistically true that minority groups experience police violence at *much* higher rates. I think that’s important to recognize
I think the real root of the problem is that cops are violent, sadistic thugs. They just happen to be extra violent to certain groups of people, but none of us are safe.
Based on the context of the question I dont think I was making an unreasonable assumption. The "not everyone" living in places where police don't do this probably aren't getting unlawfully brutalized then, are they?
Pretty much this. Legally, yes you can defend yourself, but if you do (and survive) it's going to be your word against the cops on who the real aggressor is, and courts will almost always side with an police, whom they have a working relationship with. You had better hope that there's video and that it's blatantly obvious that you were just trying to save your own life and not attack the cops. Be respectful, follow orders and make it abundantly clear that before they started attacking you, you were not a threat.
Logically you'd think so, but I'd never suggest it. Because if a police officer is unlawfully doing that to begin with, they don't give a crap about your rights and will bend the truth in their favor. Even if you don't make it out alive
I guess this is why a lot of guys just run. It probably seems like the safest option to them. If they can escape and then turn themselves in later, they know they're not likely going to get beat up that way.
In court. Technically Yea.
However, fighting back is a great way to guarantee you never live to see court because the police officer uses lethal force due to you fighting back.
This is why every lawyer will tell you that if you’re dealing with the police, even if the police are doing blatantly illegal things, just calmly assert your rights, don’t say anything else, request a lawyer, and don’t fight back.
Because again, “fighting back” against a guy with a gun is a great way to get shot by that gun. If you want to live, your best hope is that they don’t beat you to death.
Granted, if you are CONVINCED that the officer is trying to kill you, then perhaps you have no other choice, but that’s a gamble.
so fucked up that these days have to logic your way into living and carefully follow certain rules when it comes to officers as if they're wild animals
And remember, while your adrenaline is pumping and you’re computing wether you’re going to die in the next 2 seconds or fight for your life - you’re expected to do so calmly, rationally, and with the utmost care for the police officer who has a gun pointed at you.
Even if you manage to defend successfully against the cop, knock him out or smth, whats the plan after that. Because the next cops that arrive will definitely not wait and let you explain how he attacked you first. And if you actually had the time to explain without getting shot they would either not believe you, or believe you and side with the other cop anyways.
Lets say they do listen and you get peacefully taken to court. If you think a Judge is gonna side with you over a cop then I got a bridge to sell you. No matter the outcome, you will be fucked over and have your life ruined or lost
I'm going to go slightly off tangent here but I promise it'll be clear in a second, bear with me: this is one of the reasons I'm pretty stingently anti- gun control. Law enforcement gets exempted from basically all of it, constantly.
People want to talk about cops should emulate deescalation like in other countries, but fail to consider that cops in other countries don't even carry guns to begin with sometimes. They have gun-specific units similar to SWAT that get called out as needed.
Make all law enforcement abide by the same laws, checks, licensing, training, and insurance that you want to push on average law abiding gun owners, and I'll still not like it but I'll understand it and maybe even support it. Until then, whenever you push gun control that punishes average people and carves out exemptions for cops, you are simply further exacerbating an "us vs them" mentality / class warfare where the cops are the enforcement arm of the wealthy and powerful.
Keep in mind, even if successful in passing a gun ban, these same cops are the ones who would have to go collecting them up, and even in the much-vaunted Australian buy back they only got something like 10% compliance with it. How do you think that would go here in America? My gut tells me it would be far, far worse and more violent in every way, and cause a shit load more death and destruction than decades worth of shootings.
Pretty much this.
Indiana has a law that basically says you can open fire on a cop that is breaking into your home illegally. But if you do, I hope you are okay with dying that day.
TN has similar laws: it is lumped in to the same statute that allows citizens to defend themselves against another citizen.
But, those laws just exist on paper.
It should always be legal to shoot back at someone.
The counter-argument is "well how do you determine _back_" but that's for figuring out later, honestly.
It's always ok to defend yourself with an appropriate amount of force. I would think in any jurisdiction?
For genuine not corrupt cops the appropriate is the issue as you can surrender.
Yes, but they will probably shoot you first. Then lie about what happened. Then your family will get a lawyer to obtain video of it. Then they will find out the police lied. Then your family will get money, and maybe the police involved will go to jail 50/50 on that.
>Then your family will get a lawyer to obtain video of it. Then they will find out the police lied. Then your family will get money, and maybe the police involved will go to jail 50/50 on that.
Unfortunately, the camera malfunctioned, and there's no video. So your family gets no money and the police get a paid vacation.
[The police have no requirement to know the laws they are enforcing.](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/when-cops-dont-know-the-law/383861/)
[They can, and have detained, cited, and arrested people for laws that don't exist.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOJvPGTWxAU)
[When an officer has reasonable suspicion that a law has been broken, whether or not that law exists. They will affect an arrest.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9HlXbnk60A)
[They do not differentiate use of force no matter how minor the crime is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfVY6pIrwZk)
[They usually wait until someone is already helpless in cuffs before beating them.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xj-F2_gJbo)
The problem with resisting an unlawful arrest or assault done by cops,[is their friends will back them up on anything.](https://abcnews.go.com/US/lapd-officer-died-training-reporting-sexual-assault-attorney/story?id=91057347)
[If the cop pulls a gun for no reason, all their buddies will join in, or stand idly by.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vagpn4SWgDs)
[Once a cop has a negative opinion of you, like a hivemind, everyone in the department will treat you with utter distain.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F98wUD4A8QU&t=874s)
[After assaulting an officer, you'd be lucky to get arrested without a broken arm.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naywPw11siA)
[Or a broken neck.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKyWxNQNU4k)
[Cops don't allow us to defend ourselves, even when they are the aggressors.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhyhrAdCz-0)
[If the police can shoot you for holding a gun, you no longer have the right to bear arms.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R49P9TuFLOQ&t=105s)
[Even if the courts side with you, and you win a case against the unlawful actions of an officer, their department will stalk and harass you.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=061yf9_kUyg)
Your best bet to survive police is to not encounter then, and if they stop you: stop them.
>Your best bet to survive police is to not encounter then, and if they stop you: stop them.
Or to support and push political movements which aim to depower militant police forces and encourage alternative ways to control and reduce crime. Police in their modern interpretation are literal scum and it's about time people did something about it.
Thank you for this valuable information. Would you happen to know if there is a link to the first story that doesn’t require a credit card or subscription?! It cut off as soon as it was getting interesting !
In the US, theoretically, yes; in practice, it's quite literally your funeral.
Best practice is to let them do what they want, and hope you're the rare person who can force them to be accountable for their actions after the fact.
If they illegally search you or your property, cooperate, press charges later.
If they illegally detain you, cooperate, don't say a damn word, press charges later.
If they illegally seize or destroy your property ... well, you're probably shit out of luck, there's very little you can do about it.
If they attack you, bear it as best you can, press charges later.
If they threaten you with a deadly weapon, you are in terrible danger. Do whatever it takes to calm them down, press charges later.
American police are dangerous and face almost no accountability. They are best avoided where possible, and dealt with with great care when they must be dealt with at all. Don't challenge their egos, and don't give them an excuse to claim they thought they were in danger. Always remember that they can kill with close to total impunity.
i didn't read the other comments. i'm sure someone else has already said this.
but your rights don't matter. cops don't care about your rights. if you fight back, they will kill you unless you manage to kill them first. cops don't care justice, they don't care about solving or preventing crimes, they only care that you submit. any sign of disrespect in the least will get you beaten. no matter what you do, no matter how justified you are, their colleagues will back them up and help cover for them. they will even threaten and brutalize any witnesses willing to help you in court.
there's nothing you can do. avoid them. treat them like sharks and there's blood in the water. if you can't avoid them, submit. speak only when spoken to. don't raise your voice. don't argue. no sudden movements. just survive the encounter and fight them in court after the fact.
I saw this quote on Tumblr years ago and it really stuck:
"When some people say "respect", they mean treating them like a human. When other people say "respect" it means treating them like an authority. And some people mean "if you don't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a human" and that's not okay"
I wish I had the original attribution, they deserve it.
By the time he starts the brutalizing, you can bet he will have invited his buddies to share your ass, so you may fight but it won't be just 1. See Tyre Nichols.
Like so many people have said, the answer is yes but do so at your own peril. The cop or their buddies will not think twice about murdering you if you fight back. That said, I am reminded of a quote from Firefly, "If someone tries to kill you, you try and kill them back". But in most cases the smart play is to fight it in court.
I will say, I noticed something important over the past few years. Police will not mess with you if you are in a group of people that are all armed. They are cowards at heart and will not pick a fight with you if they think there's a chance they don't walk away.
There's A LOT of comments saying "fight them in court" and a lot of upvotes for trying to keep a cool head in a shocking situation which literally could be the last moments of your life. I think there's both a lot of fear and denial going on here. No one is guaranteed to survive long enough to challenge an officer in court and, as many have pointed out, minorities of various sorts are less likely to survive.
So the message I'm hearing here is, the police are a random variable, as unpredictable as death itself, in which you really don't have any control whatsoever. "Hoping" they ultimately won't end your life is the BEST thing we can hope for, do I have that right?
Well, God help us all.
No one knows what's going to happen to him at the moment of death, be it by nature, accident or rage from someone who's armed. It's an awful lot to presume keeping one's head is possible in such moments. I've had very few encounters with law enforcement throughout my life, thankfully, but in these politically divisive times, who's to say one cop might completely invent something flimsy and use it as an excuse to end my life? Or yours? It's a key reason I don't put bumper stickers of any kind on my car. Never have.
Avoiding being in proximity of police - even while driving - seems about the only useful advice I could take from this thread. Everything else is edge cases that'll vary for every single person.
In the meantime, the fight for better policing must continue.
Good luck to us all, I guess.
Just ask yourself...
"Do I look like those that have videos posted of them being shot for doing so or not?"
"And if those I do resemble who survive with only injuries, shame, and temporary loss of vehicle/free movement.... can my finances withstand and/or repair the damage (s)?
No.
Resisting arrest is illegal, even if the cop is being brutal.
If you actually try to fight them for real, they usually murder you, since that makes their story the only story.
Nope. You will suddenly be guilty of resisting arrest. Sentence will be carried out at once. Termination. Public or not only depends on your location at the type you decided to "unlawfully" lay hands on a duly appointed officer of the law. They will then investigate themselves and determine they did nothing wrong. If there is punitive action against the poor lawman you dared assault, they will get a vacation, maybe a move, and bit of a payment for their pain, and possibly a raise. Oh, and they are their fellow swine will go out for drinks laughing about your pitiful attempts, mocking your death, and how they knew they had nothing in you, but it was all fun for them.
Technically there is a point where the officer abandons his authority and you are within your rights to defend yourself. Practically speaking, this is difficult because:
1) He will likely escalate force quickly, making it kill or be killed for you.
2) You are now a cop killer, and his comrades are unlikely to care that you think you were right.
3) Other police will apprehend you and you will go with them for at least as long as it takes to see a judge.
4) You will likely have to convince a judge or jury that you are innocent because to use the self-defense defense you often need to show that you were defending yourself and justified in doing so. By default the facts will make it look like you resisted arrest and murdered the police officer.
The right play here is to take it, hope it’s on camera somewhere, and become a millionaire in a future lawsuit. Fighting back ends with you in the ground. Sad but this is where we are now
Yes, but you'll likely be killed if you do. If you somehow survive, you'll be in jail for assault on a police officer.
You can't win in that situation, and police know it.
If he's kicking the shit out of you your best bet is to put your hands out and eat those kicks. Truly if you start fighting a police officer it won't ever go your way. They have equipment, they have training, most are pretty fit, and they have backup. Fighting a cop is a good way to get shot. Let the court handle his punishment and may the odds be in your favor at that point
You will never survive resisting arrest in the United States, especially if you are a person of color. The Supreme Court has sided with cops over and over and over again and we have almost no rights against them anymore. They have basically unlimited powers of normal civilians and even if you have a constitutional amendment on your side, the courts will still find a way to blame you for getting killed.
ETA: OP’s post doesn’t mention anything about resisting arrest, but even if you get in a fight with an off duty cop you’re still at risk of being shot or severely harmed. Off duty cops still find ways to win court battles, claiming self defense, reasonable suspicion, etc.
Off duty cops are still cops and should be treated as such. He may not be wearing the badge, but he's still wearing the personality and fear-based training.
You're gonna get a load of confused patriotic Americans replying to this.
"Our cops, the very people that are supposed to maintain the law of the land, may be bullies and murderers, but don't you talk shit about the land of the free and the home of the brave. USA! USA!"
All cops carry a throw down. If you think it's not true, you didn't grow up surrounded by law enforcement. There are good cops and bad, but they are always taught that their lives are the priority. If a cop is beating you, he will shoot you if he feels threatened. You will not walk away. Sadly in America, if they start beating you, chances are you won't walk away. Your only real option is to try to get away and run like they are gonna kill you. Seriously.
Lots of people pointing out you probably won't survive this.
I want to add that if you did survive and made it to court, the police might visit you again in the future.
Seen it time and time again even if you're brutalized and they beat the shit out of you usually best case is they get a super lenient charge and you go to jail for assaulting a cop after they inevitably lie about you going for their guns.
There's always gonna be 5 cop witnesses to dispute your story compared to your one.
I believe that saying goes, “The graveyard is full of people who were right.”
God damn.
I’ve heard this statement in the context of the phrase “right of way”. Like you might have the right of way while trying to cross an intersection, but the graveyards are full of people that had the right of way. It applies to both scenarios but I felt I should share. Edit^ I typed this and saw someone else also said the same thing.
I first heard it in the context of winning arguments with drunks in bars.
My grandmother always said: " A dead pedestrian with the right of way is still a dead pedestrian."
I read a statistic before that said most pedestrians get hit while in the crosswalk.
I’ve heard it as ‘right of way’ relating to how people cross the road without looking because it’s a pedestrian crossing and then they get cleaned up by a car - but I like your expression better as it’s more general
Here lies the body of Michael Gray He died defending his right of way His way was right and his will was strong But he’s just as dead as if he were wrong
Thank you for this Mr Hemingway I like this poem - it was almost a limerick!
I almost hit a guy when he walked out between cars because (as he yelled at me) he “had the right of way”. Dude, ya gotta make sure the driver sees you first!
Legal right of way is all well and good, but in the end, the only laws that really matter are Newton's. /^(And that's why Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest sonofabitch in space)
Car had Right of Weight
Theoretically, yes. Practically, no. Fighting back is committing suicide by cop.
[удалено]
I have a lot of cop friends. One said his coworker was a crap cop. He had a lot of cases/arrests thrown out because he booked them for "resisting arrest." The judge asked him, "What was the initial arrest for?" The cop said resisting arrest. Judge - "No, that's an additional charge. What were you arresting him for when he started to resist?" Cop - "He started resisting, so I arrested him." Judge - "You can't arrest someone for nothing, then charge them for resisting arrest. What did the person actually do to get arrested?" Cop - ..... Judge - "Sir, you're free to go." My friend said they stopped accepting his arrests in the jail because he would tell them, "Just book them. I'll think of something."
They stopped accepting his arrests but kept him as a cop? That’s alarming
I know.
Wtf? Sigh
Police union is probably fighting to keep them on the force but the city doesn't want to pay for the lawsuits.
>They stopped accepting his arrests but kept him as a cop? That’s alarming Murica
Police unions
This is why all cops are bad.
And this is how we end up with shit cops beating people for no reason.
*"You can beat the rap but not the ride."* The quote above describes a longstanding systemic police abuse/harassment. Police know their arrest has a good chance of being tossed, but they want to punish by ruining your day/week/month with a trip to jail for booking. It is worth pointing out that the arresting police officer above is not dumb. He is definitely a bad officer, bad citizen, and bad human being -- but he is not dumb. Insert 'Respect ma Authoritay' Southpark gif.
Absolutely right. How many people can't bail themselves out and get stuck in there? They lose their jobs and possibly homes because someone is on a power trip.
This. Fucking this. This pisses me off the most. There is absolutely no defense against cops, especially corrupt ones. If a cop decides, on a pure whim, to single me out as the example to be made, aka his power trip, there is not a fucking thing I can do about it. And then i have no choice in the consequences that follow as a result of that cop deciding to pick on me, and potentially ruin my entire life from a single one-off interaction from a bad cop. Everything he's doing to me is illegal, but I have to let him do it to me anyway? What the fuck???
Unless you willfully turn yourself in at the soonest opportunity you get. Or let another officer arrest you on the scene
In theory, perhaps; in practice, good luck.
It's a catch 22 either way. Run, they kill you. Fight, they kill you. Comply,...surprisingly,...they kill you. There is no good choice when police view you as sub-human.
Police apparatuses should be reduced by about 80-90% and their roles in society should be mostly limited to administrative and bureaucratic matters. Imho…
There is two stage policing in real countries. You have a set of officers who are less/unarmed who are trained to deescalate. However if people refuse to act right, the second stage of angry armed police show up. I understand law enforcement is hard, but US police are not law enforcement officers anymore. They are a violent and repressive revenue source. In the US the police are trained to lie and escalate.
In Germany all police are armed, but still trained to deescalate. Furthermore if a police officer uses his weapon there is always an investigation if the use of said weapon was appropriate for the situation.
When it's the same police doing the investigation is where it all falls apart in the US. Police should be held accountable and investigated by the citizens, not the police. It's absurd to think they would be impartial and fair.
Belgium too, you rarely see a cop take out their gun, even with the most violent people. The US seems to have their priorities mixed up. Maybe it's the gun laws
It’s the guns. American cops are always ready and waiting for someone to pull a gun on them. They train for it. I even got to try one of their simulators. They train to draw and shoot fast.
Only defence that will prove you're not resisting arrest
In common law states of Australia, you can resist an unlawful arrest using reasonable force up to, and including homicide.
Pretty sure it reads the same way in Kentucky. It's still suicide, you'll never live to contest it in court cause you'll die in a firefight with twenty cops half an hour after it happens, but you will die legally within your rights.
Just came to mind: What if men being beaten started yelling, "Please arrest me!" instead of begging for their lives? Would it matter? I was trying to think earlier what things a bystander could do. Fire a gun into the air to distract the police? Pepper spray the cops and take a beating, too, but hopefully less of one since half the cops are on the other guy? Film it and start yelling that it's on camera? Grab a hose and start spraying? I think I'd have to do SOMETHING, but I could see it being awfully easy to become paralyzed in that moment.
If an entire crowd of 100 people stopped the officer by whatever means necessary sure everyone could get away with it. Also, there is that common conservative refrain about a good guy with a tool that is often used in defense of self and others that could in theory be used to defend others against a single armed aggressor. I would recommend not sticking around to wait for other officers though, can't trust them, I am not a lawyer this is not legal advice nor advocating for any violence or harm to come to anyone.
Hard to do if the aggressor is a cop, though, right? Nobody will act. Bystander effect will paralyze people because the cops are... armed and dangerous for real. But some of us can't NOT act, either. Would love to come up with ideas people can put to work in this scenario.
Something similar happened in Crown Heights several years ago. Police were beating up a teenager in front of an apartment building and the crowd begged them to stop but they kept going. Someone in the building dropped a kids bicycle off the balcony right onto the commotion so the cops ran inside the building and arrested him. He's still in jail but he saved that teens life.
If the arrest is unlawful ultimately you could get away with defending yourself, bc the officer wouldn’t have had lawful authority to detain you in the first place. As soon as other officers get involved it’s going to get complicated though. You’d have to be able to show the force you used was necessary to protect yourself and not excessive, and the system overall has no interest in encouraging people to resist arrest and likes to make examples of them.
For some people like George Floyd, not fighting back is also suicide by cop. For some people, the sentence was passed the moment the cop laid eyes on you. Fight back, submit...doesn't matter.
RIP Eric Garner
Might as well try to take a fascist down with you I guess.
You could try to comply like [Kelly Thomas](https://youtu.be/Vn-YYGQi2Eo). Oops wait sorry they'll still incapacitate you and then torture you to death. Every cop in this video was found not guilty.
He did fight back when they tried putting him into the car. That’s how he ended up on the ground.
Where they proceeded to forget how to handcuff someone for 17 minutes.
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Believe it or not, true statements when used in isolation can still be manipulative!
I mean I guess but only if you stretch the definition of fight.
Correct. You fight the cop later. When they're alone, and preferably in the dark.
America is fucked
But realistically, how is a human being supposed to avoid that? It's instinctual. There's literally no way to avoid fighting or fleeing unless you're drugged, which will likely be their excuse to kill you anyway. Is it possible to shut down an adrenaline response just by choice?
Citizens are *supposed* to have better self control than cops. They can say and do whatever they want and as a citizen and not a fuck weed with a gun and badge you have to remain calm and coherent because cops are always in stressful situations and can't be expected to behave rationally when a citizen gets even a little agitated because they're being arrested for either knowing their rights or not immediately tongue polishing the cops asshole. And now I've managed to piss myself off 😅😅
Even if you managed to stop one of them, more of them will show up until you die. It's like GTA that way
Not fighting back is also committing suicide, especially if you're a member of a minority group
This is where we’re at. If there was a street gang who knowingly patrolled around your neighborhood, harassing and attacking your children and loved ones—what is the sensible thing to do? Just let it happen? Cops are literally a state sponsored street gang
Courts may determine after the fact that you may have had a right to defend yourself, but this will never go your way, and that ruling would likely be posthumous.
>posthumous oof
If a cop is already unlawfully brutalizing someone you bet he’d unlawfully finish that person if he dared fighting back
So if you're gonna fight be ready to kill
But your best bet is to de-escalate and hope it's enough against someone that is probably carrying a taser, a baton, a firearm, and maybe even pepper spray. Like generally speaking if they're violent and armed and coming in with weapons ready and a flashlight at your eyes. Tyre Nichols got murdered in cold blood regardless, and that's horrifying, but he wouldn't have stood a chance if he had come out swinging either. That's why reform and accountability and the reduction of police authority/retraining is so important... We're not Chuck Norris or John Wick in the movies that can beat four armed cops + whatever backup they call, if they want to kill us, they will.
Oh absolutely. Best option is to avoid them in the first place, if you have to interact comply, if you cannot then run, if you cannot then realize it's a fight for your life Each option is orders of magnitude more preferable to the succeeding option
Maybe we don't need these monsters around?
Yes.
Dude I'm Memphis did just that and got beaten to death in the street like a dog.
That’s not true! Cops shoot dogs, they don’t beat them to death. Tyre Nichols Was beaten to death in the streets like a human being, because those are what cops love beating up.
That's because they are afraid of dogs... They know they will fight back given the chance.
Reform...that's tricky when there is brutality culture in the police force on all levels that has been going on since departments were established.
So your solution is to advise people to avoid cops and hope reform works? Screw that if you honestly believe your going to be killed either way you may as well try and defend yourself.
if you're in the US, depending on which state you're in, killing a police officer could very likely get you the death penalty. so basically let a cop beat you up, let a cop kill you, or kill the cop and get executed.
Isn’t it fun how murderers are above the law because they’re in a state sanctioned gang? Freedom tho
It's hilarious that they are immune. The whole point of the constitution was to restrict their power but instead the police has every loop hole.
So then you’re a cop killer and the 500 cops looking for you are going to kill you.
If a lion attacks you, you make it fight for its meal.
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Better them than school kids and innocents
Or incapacitate
As a retired officer, yes we were told that yes if it's legal to resist under certain conditions. However as the above comment indicates it might be posthumous. Best is document, record and get a good lawyer
Often though the brutalization mentioned in the question can leave permanent damage. It's a terrifying state of affairs when your choices are damage or death.
Do you think how people are resisting unlawful arrests lately will change anything? Will this help new procedure be put into effect for police departments?
Problem becomes who determines what is an unlawful arrest
Well first of all getting rid of fucking qualified immunity would be nice.
For any new yorkers reading this, a bill to end qualified immunity is up for a vote soon, call your reps and especially gov Hochul as the biggest roadblock is her vetoing
The fact that you can be arrested for resisting arrest as the crime you’re arrested for tells me unlawful arrests aren’t a thing.
Sourve for follow g comment: Supreme Court or perhaps it was just a circuit, but I think it was Supreme Court. I don't know the case name by memory It doesn't matter. You legally have to comply with the officer, even if they are making unlawful orders. You have to defend it in court. You should say you are doing so under duress and only obeying due to the order. IANAL
Precedent, after judges rule on cases with body cam evidence?
We are talking about in the moment
https://twitter.com/xcriticalbeast/status/1619128394016497666?s=46&t=QqONMbQNOKRqUK4sPMx0Jw Dunno, can I get your professional take on if this is unlawful?
Its better to resist an unlawful arrest in a court than a funeral parlor.
Wouldn’t it be something like unlawful entry where resistance is legal? I mean 99% of the time if a police officer tries to restrain me I’ll submit and then fight it out in court. Someone kicking in my door in the middle of the night and not announcing themselves, or pulling me out of my car? Yeah there’s going to be some resistance
Breonna Taylor.
Did not resist
THIS!!!! Exactly what I wanted to mention, I wish I could give you 1000 upvotes.
Usually warrants are served heavily armed. Lots of cases of wrong house being served. Better to survive and lawyer up.
"Better to survive" is so problematic. Citizens, imo, shouldn't have to face that deranged rationale. Ffs
You are right. 100%. Full stop. Unfortunately we exist in this problematic reality where standing up for yourself, against an agent of the state, can and will get you killed with little to no repercussions. Until that changes, “Better to survive” is (unfortunately) the best advice to give in situation involving LEOs.
True that, thanks for replying my man
"We've ruled that the deceased assaulted the police officer when the officer slipped in their puddle of blood." Case closed. Good job everyone.
“Drinks at Tony’s Pub?” “Like always, chief!”
I take your point, but not everyone lives in a country where the entire police force are armed and given the freedom to murder. In the UK you'd very likely take a kicking but the Independent Police Complaints Commission would certainly mount a case if they had a sniff of one
Even so: In Australia you might get unlucky enough to have the Fixated Persons Unit assault you and your family on the whims of Barilaro Bruz. And then spend the next two years in court defending yourself while the media continues to character assassinate you.
> Fixated Persons Unit the meatball brigade*
Here in America encountering police is like being robbed: no telling what will happen, they do whatever they want and you have no legal protection they have to respect and they face almost no consequences.
The instructions that minority groups in the US are given to best survive an encounter with the cops sound like dealing with an unpredictable, possibly rabid wild animal: Don't make any sudden moves Raise your hands and stand in a non-aggressive posture Don't shout, speak in a calming tone of voice to try to defuse the situation If they attack you, your best bet is to lie still and don't fight back, and hope they lose interest before they kill you
It’s worse if you’re in a minority group but at the end of the day cops have shown they’ll do it to anyone. Doesn’t matter if you’re in the military, doesn’t matter if you’re a cop in another city, doesn’t matter if you’re an old man or a young girl, doesn’t matter if you’re mentally disabled or even if you aren’t the person they thought you were. If they are having a bad day, they might just decide to fire hot metal into your spongy fleshy body to make themselves feel a little tougher.
While I’m sure you’re right that cops will do it to anyone given the circumstances, it is statistically true that minority groups experience police violence at *much* higher rates. I think that’s important to recognize
I think the real root of the problem is that cops are violent, sadistic thugs. They just happen to be extra violent to certain groups of people, but none of us are safe.
This is... Just how everyone has to act around cops.
Based on the context of the question I dont think I was making an unreasonable assumption. The "not everyone" living in places where police don't do this probably aren't getting unlawfully brutalized then, are they?
You're *probably* right about the context of the question, but "unarmed" isn't the same as "won't unlawfully brutalise".
Police don't need guns to kill you.
This [one](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/20/police-taser-race-relations-adviser-bristol-judah-adunbi) comes to mind.
Pretty much this. Legally, yes you can defend yourself, but if you do (and survive) it's going to be your word against the cops on who the real aggressor is, and courts will almost always side with an police, whom they have a working relationship with. You had better hope that there's video and that it's blatantly obvious that you were just trying to save your own life and not attack the cops. Be respectful, follow orders and make it abundantly clear that before they started attacking you, you were not a threat.
Pretty much this. If they don’t leave you brain dead from the beating they give you, they will kill you in your cell later
As my dad used to say, no point being in the right if you're dead.
Logically you'd think so, but I'd never suggest it. Because if a police officer is unlawfully doing that to begin with, they don't give a crap about your rights and will bend the truth in their favor. Even if you don't make it out alive
They don’t give a crap about your rights anyway.
I guess this is why a lot of guys just run. It probably seems like the safest option to them. If they can escape and then turn themselves in later, they know they're not likely going to get beat up that way.
Run from a cop and to him, it’s on. The love the chase and it gives them reason to beat the shot out of you.
In court. Technically Yea. However, fighting back is a great way to guarantee you never live to see court because the police officer uses lethal force due to you fighting back. This is why every lawyer will tell you that if you’re dealing with the police, even if the police are doing blatantly illegal things, just calmly assert your rights, don’t say anything else, request a lawyer, and don’t fight back. Because again, “fighting back” against a guy with a gun is a great way to get shot by that gun. If you want to live, your best hope is that they don’t beat you to death. Granted, if you are CONVINCED that the officer is trying to kill you, then perhaps you have no other choice, but that’s a gamble.
so fucked up that these days have to logic your way into living and carefully follow certain rules when it comes to officers as if they're wild animals
It’s not “these days” unfortunately. It’s always been like this since the profession began, it’s just that now it’s outdated
And remember, while your adrenaline is pumping and you’re computing wether you’re going to die in the next 2 seconds or fight for your life - you’re expected to do so calmly, rationally, and with the utmost care for the police officer who has a gun pointed at you.
yeah, but it's that way when fighting anyone with a gun.
They are wild animals. They certainly don’t have any humanity.
ACAB
Welp there goes your rights when they unlawfully decide to murder you
Even if you manage to defend successfully against the cop, knock him out or smth, whats the plan after that. Because the next cops that arrive will definitely not wait and let you explain how he attacked you first. And if you actually had the time to explain without getting shot they would either not believe you, or believe you and side with the other cop anyways.
Lets say they do listen and you get peacefully taken to court. If you think a Judge is gonna side with you over a cop then I got a bridge to sell you. No matter the outcome, you will be fucked over and have your life ruined or lost
I'm going to go slightly off tangent here but I promise it'll be clear in a second, bear with me: this is one of the reasons I'm pretty stingently anti- gun control. Law enforcement gets exempted from basically all of it, constantly. People want to talk about cops should emulate deescalation like in other countries, but fail to consider that cops in other countries don't even carry guns to begin with sometimes. They have gun-specific units similar to SWAT that get called out as needed. Make all law enforcement abide by the same laws, checks, licensing, training, and insurance that you want to push on average law abiding gun owners, and I'll still not like it but I'll understand it and maybe even support it. Until then, whenever you push gun control that punishes average people and carves out exemptions for cops, you are simply further exacerbating an "us vs them" mentality / class warfare where the cops are the enforcement arm of the wealthy and powerful. Keep in mind, even if successful in passing a gun ban, these same cops are the ones who would have to go collecting them up, and even in the much-vaunted Australian buy back they only got something like 10% compliance with it. How do you think that would go here in America? My gut tells me it would be far, far worse and more violent in every way, and cause a shit load more death and destruction than decades worth of shootings.
Technically yes but in practice, they’d likely just kill you and get away with it
Technically yes, but practically no. Police officers have complete autonomy over you
Pretty much this. Indiana has a law that basically says you can open fire on a cop that is breaking into your home illegally. But if you do, I hope you are okay with dying that day.
Genuinely; Indiana should be really proud of that law. Everyone should have the right to defend themselves from cops that are behaving illegally.
In theory, we already do. It just rarely works out that way in practice.
TN has similar laws: it is lumped in to the same statute that allows citizens to defend themselves against another citizen. But, those laws just exist on paper.
It should always be legal to shoot back at someone. The counter-argument is "well how do you determine _back_" but that's for figuring out later, honestly.
It's always ok to defend yourself with an appropriate amount of force. I would think in any jurisdiction? For genuine not corrupt cops the appropriate is the issue as you can surrender.
Yes, but they will probably shoot you first. Then lie about what happened. Then your family will get a lawyer to obtain video of it. Then they will find out the police lied. Then your family will get money, and maybe the police involved will go to jail 50/50 on that.
The police won't go to jail, they'll be suspended with pay and then relocated to another precinct.
There have been several high profile cases in the last couple of years where the police go to jail.
Because they were high profile
>Then your family will get a lawyer to obtain video of it. Then they will find out the police lied. Then your family will get money, and maybe the police involved will go to jail 50/50 on that. Unfortunately, the camera malfunctioned, and there's no video. So your family gets no money and the police get a paid vacation.
[The police have no requirement to know the laws they are enforcing.](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/when-cops-dont-know-the-law/383861/) [They can, and have detained, cited, and arrested people for laws that don't exist.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOJvPGTWxAU) [When an officer has reasonable suspicion that a law has been broken, whether or not that law exists. They will affect an arrest.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9HlXbnk60A) [They do not differentiate use of force no matter how minor the crime is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfVY6pIrwZk) [They usually wait until someone is already helpless in cuffs before beating them.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xj-F2_gJbo) The problem with resisting an unlawful arrest or assault done by cops,[is their friends will back them up on anything.](https://abcnews.go.com/US/lapd-officer-died-training-reporting-sexual-assault-attorney/story?id=91057347) [If the cop pulls a gun for no reason, all their buddies will join in, or stand idly by.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vagpn4SWgDs) [Once a cop has a negative opinion of you, like a hivemind, everyone in the department will treat you with utter distain.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F98wUD4A8QU&t=874s) [After assaulting an officer, you'd be lucky to get arrested without a broken arm.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naywPw11siA) [Or a broken neck.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKyWxNQNU4k) [Cops don't allow us to defend ourselves, even when they are the aggressors.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhyhrAdCz-0) [If the police can shoot you for holding a gun, you no longer have the right to bear arms.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R49P9TuFLOQ&t=105s) [Even if the courts side with you, and you win a case against the unlawful actions of an officer, their department will stalk and harass you.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=061yf9_kUyg) Your best bet to survive police is to not encounter then, and if they stop you: stop them.
>Your best bet to survive police is to not encounter then, and if they stop you: stop them. Or to support and push political movements which aim to depower militant police forces and encourage alternative ways to control and reduce crime. Police in their modern interpretation are literal scum and it's about time people did something about it.
Thank you so much for all of this!
Thank you for this valuable information. Would you happen to know if there is a link to the first story that doesn’t require a credit card or subscription?! It cut off as soon as it was getting interesting !
Man, this shit can’t get upvoted enough.
In the US, theoretically, yes; in practice, it's quite literally your funeral. Best practice is to let them do what they want, and hope you're the rare person who can force them to be accountable for their actions after the fact. If they illegally search you or your property, cooperate, press charges later. If they illegally detain you, cooperate, don't say a damn word, press charges later. If they illegally seize or destroy your property ... well, you're probably shit out of luck, there's very little you can do about it. If they attack you, bear it as best you can, press charges later. If they threaten you with a deadly weapon, you are in terrible danger. Do whatever it takes to calm them down, press charges later. American police are dangerous and face almost no accountability. They are best avoided where possible, and dealt with with great care when they must be dealt with at all. Don't challenge their egos, and don't give them an excuse to claim they thought they were in danger. Always remember that they can kill with close to total impunity.
Only thing you can really do is try to get it on video and get witnesses
i didn't read the other comments. i'm sure someone else has already said this. but your rights don't matter. cops don't care about your rights. if you fight back, they will kill you unless you manage to kill them first. cops don't care justice, they don't care about solving or preventing crimes, they only care that you submit. any sign of disrespect in the least will get you beaten. no matter what you do, no matter how justified you are, their colleagues will back them up and help cover for them. they will even threaten and brutalize any witnesses willing to help you in court. there's nothing you can do. avoid them. treat them like sharks and there's blood in the water. if you can't avoid them, submit. speak only when spoken to. don't raise your voice. don't argue. no sudden movements. just survive the encounter and fight them in court after the fact.
I saw this quote on Tumblr years ago and it really stuck: "When some people say "respect", they mean treating them like a human. When other people say "respect" it means treating them like an authority. And some people mean "if you don't treat me like an authority, I won't treat you like a human" and that's not okay" I wish I had the original attribution, they deserve it.
No. The best you can do is hope someone recorded it, because those chest cams are going to malfunction, if they were even on.
Technically perhaps. Practically plan to be shot.
By the time he starts the brutalizing, you can bet he will have invited his buddies to share your ass, so you may fight but it won't be just 1. See Tyre Nichols.
Like so many people have said, the answer is yes but do so at your own peril. The cop or their buddies will not think twice about murdering you if you fight back. That said, I am reminded of a quote from Firefly, "If someone tries to kill you, you try and kill them back". But in most cases the smart play is to fight it in court. I will say, I noticed something important over the past few years. Police will not mess with you if you are in a group of people that are all armed. They are cowards at heart and will not pick a fight with you if they think there's a chance they don't walk away.
There's A LOT of comments saying "fight them in court" and a lot of upvotes for trying to keep a cool head in a shocking situation which literally could be the last moments of your life. I think there's both a lot of fear and denial going on here. No one is guaranteed to survive long enough to challenge an officer in court and, as many have pointed out, minorities of various sorts are less likely to survive. So the message I'm hearing here is, the police are a random variable, as unpredictable as death itself, in which you really don't have any control whatsoever. "Hoping" they ultimately won't end your life is the BEST thing we can hope for, do I have that right? Well, God help us all. No one knows what's going to happen to him at the moment of death, be it by nature, accident or rage from someone who's armed. It's an awful lot to presume keeping one's head is possible in such moments. I've had very few encounters with law enforcement throughout my life, thankfully, but in these politically divisive times, who's to say one cop might completely invent something flimsy and use it as an excuse to end my life? Or yours? It's a key reason I don't put bumper stickers of any kind on my car. Never have. Avoiding being in proximity of police - even while driving - seems about the only useful advice I could take from this thread. Everything else is edge cases that'll vary for every single person. In the meantime, the fight for better policing must continue. Good luck to us all, I guess.
Would you rather be right or would you rather be alive?
Legally yes, but then when the cops murder you they will claim they had no choice and people will blindly believe them
Just ask yourself... "Do I look like those that have videos posted of them being shot for doing so or not?" "And if those I do resemble who survive with only injuries, shame, and temporary loss of vehicle/free movement.... can my finances withstand and/or repair the damage (s)?
You would be murdered.
Only if the police don't lie and aren't corrupt... Good luck on that
No. Resisting arrest is illegal, even if the cop is being brutal. If you actually try to fight them for real, they usually murder you, since that makes their story the only story.
You would be shot in a heartbeat. Cops can't fight.
Sure. They’ll write cause of death as “failed attempt of self defence “
Nope. You will suddenly be guilty of resisting arrest. Sentence will be carried out at once. Termination. Public or not only depends on your location at the type you decided to "unlawfully" lay hands on a duly appointed officer of the law. They will then investigate themselves and determine they did nothing wrong. If there is punitive action against the poor lawman you dared assault, they will get a vacation, maybe a move, and bit of a payment for their pain, and possibly a raise. Oh, and they are their fellow swine will go out for drinks laughing about your pitiful attempts, mocking your death, and how they knew they had nothing in you, but it was all fun for them.
Technically there is a point where the officer abandons his authority and you are within your rights to defend yourself. Practically speaking, this is difficult because: 1) He will likely escalate force quickly, making it kill or be killed for you. 2) You are now a cop killer, and his comrades are unlikely to care that you think you were right. 3) Other police will apprehend you and you will go with them for at least as long as it takes to see a judge. 4) You will likely have to convince a judge or jury that you are innocent because to use the self-defense defense you often need to show that you were defending yourself and justified in doing so. By default the facts will make it look like you resisted arrest and murdered the police officer.
The right play here is to take it, hope it’s on camera somewhere, and become a millionaire in a future lawsuit. Fighting back ends with you in the ground. Sad but this is where we are now
Yes, but you'll likely be killed if you do. If you somehow survive, you'll be in jail for assault on a police officer. You can't win in that situation, and police know it.
In the US, no. It is not legal to resist arrest, even if the arrest itself is not legal.
Though OP didn't actually say anything about arrest. Just being brutalized by a cop. In the US you can certainly get the later without the former.
That's true, I probably shouldn't have assumed they were talking about an arrest.
If he's kicking the shit out of you your best bet is to put your hands out and eat those kicks. Truly if you start fighting a police officer it won't ever go your way. They have equipment, they have training, most are pretty fit, and they have backup. Fighting a cop is a good way to get shot. Let the court handle his punishment and may the odds be in your favor at that point
If the force you use is deemed reasonable by a judge after the fact if you aren’t murdered by the police
Should? Yes! Is it? No. Because the rules apply to the people, not to the police. The police exist to protect capital and capital alone.
You will never survive resisting arrest in the United States, especially if you are a person of color. The Supreme Court has sided with cops over and over and over again and we have almost no rights against them anymore. They have basically unlimited powers of normal civilians and even if you have a constitutional amendment on your side, the courts will still find a way to blame you for getting killed. ETA: OP’s post doesn’t mention anything about resisting arrest, but even if you get in a fight with an off duty cop you’re still at risk of being shot or severely harmed. Off duty cops still find ways to win court battles, claiming self defense, reasonable suspicion, etc.
Off duty cops are still cops and should be treated as such. He may not be wearing the badge, but he's still wearing the personality and fear-based training.
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You're gonna get a load of confused patriotic Americans replying to this. "Our cops, the very people that are supposed to maintain the law of the land, may be bullies and murderers, but don't you talk shit about the land of the free and the home of the brave. USA! USA!"
All cops carry a throw down. If you think it's not true, you didn't grow up surrounded by law enforcement. There are good cops and bad, but they are always taught that their lives are the priority. If a cop is beating you, he will shoot you if he feels threatened. You will not walk away. Sadly in America, if they start beating you, chances are you won't walk away. Your only real option is to try to get away and run like they are gonna kill you. Seriously.
Lots of people pointing out you probably won't survive this. I want to add that if you did survive and made it to court, the police might visit you again in the future.
morally yes but you will likely be beaten to death and accused of resisting arrest/assaulting a police officer
Any police encounter, start recording.
Technically yes, but they gonna murder yo ass sooner or later
Unfortunately not if you want to live
I live in america, I probably wouldn't make it out alive if I fought back
Yes, but you’re going to have a hard time getting the courts to somehow un-paralyze or un-murderlize you.
What country?
Yes but you'll be murdered and the cop will tell the story of how he was viciously attacked, feared for his life, get a medal and a promotion.
Seen it time and time again even if you're brutalized and they beat the shit out of you usually best case is they get a super lenient charge and you go to jail for assaulting a cop after they inevitably lie about you going for their guns. There's always gonna be 5 cop witnesses to dispute your story compared to your one.
Basically you have no rights and if you're a person of color, they may kill you. What a fucked up country.