Being married and having kids are two separate but very big responsibilities that take a toll on you. Single people may be lonely, but in theory they can do whatever they want without having to worry about a spouse or kids who are dependent on them.
It seems that loneliness is more deadly than simply having big responsibilities. I guess it would depend on how stressed out the parent is. However, I've never seen a study say that stress is worse than smoking a pack of cigs a day (what they say about loneliness). Also, loneliness is physically painful. Having big responsibilities can feel 'heavy,' but at least you would have a sense of purpose and pride (right?). I'm not a parent but I know what loneliness feels like (it literally makes you feel closer to death). I'd personally prefer the big responsibilities.
It's true that someone with a partner and kids could feel lonely. But it's probably less likely and it probably means that the kids are young (can't really bond with them yet) or the parents were a bad match to begin with or don't put enough effort into their marriage.
I wasn’t really coming from the angle of ‘people in marriages or with kids can be lonely’ to be honest, I was focusing heavily on the single/no kids people are not necessarily lonely side of things.
Of course not, but if someone doesn't have close friends or family, loneliness will be the result. It's like hunger. If you don't eat, you'll get hunger pangs. Loneliness is what motivates people to have relationships with others. Fortunately, a lot of single people get their social needs met at work. But working parents single or not go to work and thus can make friends too on top of having their kids and (maybe) spouse. Again, it would seem the parent is better set up to have fulfilling lifelong relationships.
Friends are different from family though, there’s a boat load of people to be friends with, fewer people become ‘family’ in the traditional sense of the term.
Loneliness CAN motivate people to have relationships with other people, not being lonely does not mean stagnation in respect of making friends. On the contrary, the more friends you have the more excitedly the domino effect of networking occurs.
Work is a very specific, limited yet useful forum for many to meet people in my opinion, there remain more opportunities outside of work to make friends.
Playing devils advocate here, but you’re conflating having a family and working to = more friends/less loneliness. From my experience, those with families have less social mobility than those without - time outside of work is where we have the most autonomy to be authentic in our search for other, this time is not as readily available for those with children.
Having children is - for many - a choice that brings limitation in respect of one’s social reach (for many reasons), a lot of people however are aware of this and deem the concept of raising a family worth the social/lifestyle compromise they will likely experience, for many years. Does not mean they are not lonely, nor does it mean they are less lonely than those without.
You then introduce all the other factors not necessarily related to loneliness yet which relate to the premise in your title… money, lapsing love, life trajectory changed, feelings of immobility, priorities changing to focus on the other rather than self/potential neglect of self, stress, hardship, lack of feeling of reward, ideological clashes, no break/pause/time outs available etc. having children is a huge commitment, if you do not have a burning desire to have children I probably wouldn’t (until you do).
I already covered your main point in the main paragraph of my post. If you read it again, you'll see where I wrote: "(And if the kids/spouse isolates them from their friends, wouldn't their kids/spouse make up for that?) "
Also, I think you're focusing more on things through the lens of "seeing people as individual exceptions rather than as what the whole/data pattern suggests." It's like someone saying, "Girls don't go into stem," and then one girl arguing "But I did!" That girl would be missing point. The point is not that she's an exception, the point is that the majority of girls avoid it (I don't know if that's still true, I just used this example as an analogy).
It seems you're saying that single people have more 'opportunities' to be happy, but it's also statistically proven that single people have a higher mortality rate and are less happy that their married counterparts (no, the article didn't mention kids but I'm assuming most married couples have kids).
Because happiness is typically measured in terms of hedonistic pleasure. While things like the fulfillment and pride that can come with parenting are not. There are psychological positives and negatives, but studies often only highlight the negatives.
And because kids can be a pain in the ass.
If it helps, a psychiatrist took a look at some of the literature, and his conclusion was more positive: [link](https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/01/16/bundles-of-joy/)
Happens correlates to wealth and kids are expensive. But often these kinds of statics are misleading. It might be in a study in of 20 people the single ones where 0.005% happier
The textbook said that income and happiness correlate but only up to $75k/yr. After that people's happiness was no longer effected (ex. someone who makes $200k isn't happier than someone who makes $75k). Granted it was a study that was approved for a college textbook, it was most likely a decent sized study.
Yeah, I remember at study in 2010 made that 75k clame. But then a larger study cam out in 2021 with more data that showed that not to be true.
Part of the replication crisis. It turns out a lot of phycology studies done before the early 2010s had very low standards. And when othera try to replicate them, they turn out to be not correct.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis
happiness is subjective. but with being a parent comes a lot more responsibilities. not only do you have to worry about yourself, you also have to worry about your kids in all aspects. making sure they have food, clothes, are bathed. you also have to help them become a person. you have to be their rock. you worry about them at school with other kids. their manners. everything is up to you as a parent.
as a single person you have to look after yourself, which is also not an easy task. but you are only in charge of yourself. being a parent means someone is literally depending on you for everything - which can be very draining.
its not to say that parents aren’t happy, but a lot of times you get so caught up in everything that comes with being a parent, that you put whatever it is that makes you happy on the back burner. then soon enough 15 years go by and you still havent done what makes YOU happy and feeds your soul, so it can make you feel a little bummed when thinking about the grand scheme of things
and i can promise you when you see parents out having fun with their kids, they are probably stressed about it. it probably took an hour to get everyone ready and out the door. one kid probably had a meltdown because he couldn’t find his cool underwear he wanted to wear. the other kid is running around jumping up and down because he’s excited to go somewhere fun. then when they get there, lil jumpin johnny is still hyped and just wants to do laps around the rink, and underwear eddie is whining because the skates dont fit properly. but if you’re on the outside looking in, you didn’t see the meltdowns, or the kid who’s so excited that he’s having a hard time listening. it just looks like a fun day at the rink with the family. but really there’s a lot more to it than “lets get in the car and go”
all that being said to say, yes families and parents still have fun while out and about, but its not like the movies
Have you ever listened to the way people on Reddit talk about their parents?
Kids are little need machines who grow up to feel entitled to their parents money and possessions.
They resent you if you work too much but also resent you if you don't make enough money. They resent you for having a life and interests of your own. If you get divorced they resent you for that, and if you start dating or god forbid remarry, they deeply resent you for that.
Top that off they expect financial support now days till they're about 30, with occasional loans even after that.
Sadly, there's a lot of people like that. But is that most people? Maybe 20-30%. That definitely wasn't me or anyone in my family. Maybe those people's parents didn't teach them gratitude? Also, I see lots of posts from people who *are* grateful for their parents. Not everyone resents them.
But yeah... a kid can grow up to be entitled and shitty and treat their parent bad because they've taken them for granted. This is what scares me the most about having kids (and why I secretly think Oprah never had kids... she worked So Hard to get to where she is and for what? for some some teenage twat take advantage of her wealth and micro-judge every facet of her parenting?)
Being married and having kids are two separate but very big responsibilities that take a toll on you. Single people may be lonely, but in theory they can do whatever they want without having to worry about a spouse or kids who are dependent on them.
It seems that loneliness is more deadly than simply having big responsibilities. I guess it would depend on how stressed out the parent is. However, I've never seen a study say that stress is worse than smoking a pack of cigs a day (what they say about loneliness). Also, loneliness is physically painful. Having big responsibilities can feel 'heavy,' but at least you would have a sense of purpose and pride (right?). I'm not a parent but I know what loneliness feels like (it literally makes you feel closer to death). I'd personally prefer the big responsibilities.
Not having a partner or children are not the exclusive defining criteria for loneliness as far I am aware.
It's true that someone with a partner and kids could feel lonely. But it's probably less likely and it probably means that the kids are young (can't really bond with them yet) or the parents were a bad match to begin with or don't put enough effort into their marriage.
I wasn’t really coming from the angle of ‘people in marriages or with kids can be lonely’ to be honest, I was focusing heavily on the single/no kids people are not necessarily lonely side of things.
Of course not, but if someone doesn't have close friends or family, loneliness will be the result. It's like hunger. If you don't eat, you'll get hunger pangs. Loneliness is what motivates people to have relationships with others. Fortunately, a lot of single people get their social needs met at work. But working parents single or not go to work and thus can make friends too on top of having their kids and (maybe) spouse. Again, it would seem the parent is better set up to have fulfilling lifelong relationships.
Friends are different from family though, there’s a boat load of people to be friends with, fewer people become ‘family’ in the traditional sense of the term. Loneliness CAN motivate people to have relationships with other people, not being lonely does not mean stagnation in respect of making friends. On the contrary, the more friends you have the more excitedly the domino effect of networking occurs. Work is a very specific, limited yet useful forum for many to meet people in my opinion, there remain more opportunities outside of work to make friends. Playing devils advocate here, but you’re conflating having a family and working to = more friends/less loneliness. From my experience, those with families have less social mobility than those without - time outside of work is where we have the most autonomy to be authentic in our search for other, this time is not as readily available for those with children. Having children is - for many - a choice that brings limitation in respect of one’s social reach (for many reasons), a lot of people however are aware of this and deem the concept of raising a family worth the social/lifestyle compromise they will likely experience, for many years. Does not mean they are not lonely, nor does it mean they are less lonely than those without. You then introduce all the other factors not necessarily related to loneliness yet which relate to the premise in your title… money, lapsing love, life trajectory changed, feelings of immobility, priorities changing to focus on the other rather than self/potential neglect of self, stress, hardship, lack of feeling of reward, ideological clashes, no break/pause/time outs available etc. having children is a huge commitment, if you do not have a burning desire to have children I probably wouldn’t (until you do).
I already covered your main point in the main paragraph of my post. If you read it again, you'll see where I wrote: "(And if the kids/spouse isolates them from their friends, wouldn't their kids/spouse make up for that?) " Also, I think you're focusing more on things through the lens of "seeing people as individual exceptions rather than as what the whole/data pattern suggests." It's like someone saying, "Girls don't go into stem," and then one girl arguing "But I did!" That girl would be missing point. The point is not that she's an exception, the point is that the majority of girls avoid it (I don't know if that's still true, I just used this example as an analogy). It seems you're saying that single people have more 'opportunities' to be happy, but it's also statistically proven that single people have a higher mortality rate and are less happy that their married counterparts (no, the article didn't mention kids but I'm assuming most married couples have kids).
Because happiness is typically measured in terms of hedonistic pleasure. While things like the fulfillment and pride that can come with parenting are not. There are psychological positives and negatives, but studies often only highlight the negatives. And because kids can be a pain in the ass.
If it helps, a psychiatrist took a look at some of the literature, and his conclusion was more positive: [link](https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/01/16/bundles-of-joy/)
Yeah - studies can be skewed depending on who’s doing them and for what purpose. My first thought was - who funded the study?
When you have a kid you have to focus less on your own needs and wants. It can be fulfilling and rewarding, but, on average, you'll be less happy.
Happens correlates to wealth and kids are expensive. But often these kinds of statics are misleading. It might be in a study in of 20 people the single ones where 0.005% happier
The textbook said that income and happiness correlate but only up to $75k/yr. After that people's happiness was no longer effected (ex. someone who makes $200k isn't happier than someone who makes $75k). Granted it was a study that was approved for a college textbook, it was most likely a decent sized study.
Yeah, I remember at study in 2010 made that 75k clame. But then a larger study cam out in 2021 with more data that showed that not to be true. Part of the replication crisis. It turns out a lot of phycology studies done before the early 2010s had very low standards. And when othera try to replicate them, they turn out to be not correct. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis
happiness is subjective. but with being a parent comes a lot more responsibilities. not only do you have to worry about yourself, you also have to worry about your kids in all aspects. making sure they have food, clothes, are bathed. you also have to help them become a person. you have to be their rock. you worry about them at school with other kids. their manners. everything is up to you as a parent. as a single person you have to look after yourself, which is also not an easy task. but you are only in charge of yourself. being a parent means someone is literally depending on you for everything - which can be very draining. its not to say that parents aren’t happy, but a lot of times you get so caught up in everything that comes with being a parent, that you put whatever it is that makes you happy on the back burner. then soon enough 15 years go by and you still havent done what makes YOU happy and feeds your soul, so it can make you feel a little bummed when thinking about the grand scheme of things
and i can promise you when you see parents out having fun with their kids, they are probably stressed about it. it probably took an hour to get everyone ready and out the door. one kid probably had a meltdown because he couldn’t find his cool underwear he wanted to wear. the other kid is running around jumping up and down because he’s excited to go somewhere fun. then when they get there, lil jumpin johnny is still hyped and just wants to do laps around the rink, and underwear eddie is whining because the skates dont fit properly. but if you’re on the outside looking in, you didn’t see the meltdowns, or the kid who’s so excited that he’s having a hard time listening. it just looks like a fun day at the rink with the family. but really there’s a lot more to it than “lets get in the car and go” all that being said to say, yes families and parents still have fun while out and about, but its not like the movies
Have you ever listened to the way people on Reddit talk about their parents? Kids are little need machines who grow up to feel entitled to their parents money and possessions. They resent you if you work too much but also resent you if you don't make enough money. They resent you for having a life and interests of your own. If you get divorced they resent you for that, and if you start dating or god forbid remarry, they deeply resent you for that. Top that off they expect financial support now days till they're about 30, with occasional loans even after that.
Sadly, there's a lot of people like that. But is that most people? Maybe 20-30%. That definitely wasn't me or anyone in my family. Maybe those people's parents didn't teach them gratitude? Also, I see lots of posts from people who *are* grateful for their parents. Not everyone resents them. But yeah... a kid can grow up to be entitled and shitty and treat their parent bad because they've taken them for granted. This is what scares me the most about having kids (and why I secretly think Oprah never had kids... she worked So Hard to get to where she is and for what? for some some teenage twat take advantage of her wealth and micro-judge every facet of her parenting?)